Solving Problems | Jessica Adanich

Hey creative, are you ready to discuss profits? The money, the ways to make it happen? The Profitable Creative Podcast is for you, the creative, how you define it. Videographers, photographers, entrepreneurs, marketing agencies, you get it. CEO of Core Group and author Christian Brim interviews industry experts, creative entrepreneurs, and professionals alike who strive to be creative and make money at the same time. Sound like you? Tune in now. It's time for profit.

Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Holland, Michigan. Evidently the Dutch got lost and claimed the entire state. Thanks for listening. Joining me today, Jessica— Joining me today, Jessica Adnitsch with DesignPod Studios. Jessica, welcome to the show.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Well, I'm excited you're here too. I've been stumbling all over my words, but you, you, you are going to elevate the show. That's what I decided.

Okay. I, that's a lot of pressure, but I will take it. We're starting off strong.

So, so tell us about Design Pod. What is it that you guys do specifically?

Yes. So Design Pod Studio is a design agency that focuses on branding, which is your logo and everything visually and aesthetic that makes up your branding. It's not just your logo. And then graphic design pretty much for anything. And then marketing strategies, which is really a fancy term for saying we help you make a plan because to really be successful, you need to make a plan and execute it well. Versus just driving aimlessly.

And how long has DesignPod been around?

It will be 7 in December, so 7 next week.

Nice. It's— thank you— it's gone into grade school now.

I know, we've graduated.

Yeah, and you went through COVID, so congratulations. Um, what did you do before that?

Prior to that, I actually ran the design and marketing department for Mace brand pepper spray for 6 years. Okay. Yes, it was. It was— I really, really loved it. I felt like I was—

I didn't even know that was a brand name, Mace. It's kind of like Kleenex. It just, you know, it's just— yeah, okay.

Yeah, like Xerox, Kleenex, Rollerblades. And I appreciate you bringing that up because when I was there, that was one of the main things that we worked on daily was making sure that we did not lose our registration because technically, if you have a registered brand, another company, any company, but usually it's a competitor, can come after you claiming that it's been genericized if people use it as a verb. And often if you hear a story or someone will say, oh, someone was maced, well, you're losing your registration because now it's become genericized.

So were you successful in that endeavor?

Uh, it was a constant battle because whether it was a positive or negative story in the news, whether someone used Mace brand pepper spray or not, it was always they were maced. And that's a very difficult thing to get away from. You know, if you have a tissue in your house, it's a Kleenex. Kleenex. Yeah, right.

Yeah, except, except my friend that worked for Procter Gamble, and she kept calling them facial tissues because they didn't sell Kleenex. I'm like, oh, okay.

Yeah, that's when you know, right, it's been beaten into you.

It's been— yes, evidently it had been beaten into her. But I mean, in a lot of ways, you're talking about being a victim of your own success there where, you know, you've got such a ubiquitous product. Everybody uses it. And yeah. So, okay, that's it. That's interesting. So who is it that you work with in your Design Pod studio? Well, who's your target, target audience?

You know, I tell people that our target audience really is about the mindset of the business owner. We work with a lot of different companies. We do specialize in the tactical industry because of my background. We work with companies that are in the firearms, self-defense spray, ammunition, firearm accessories, because it is a niche. But we also work with a lot of other companies, you know, realtors, chiropractors, authors, but the one thing they all have in common is that they understand the value in investing in professional design and professional marketing services. Uh, I think that marketing and design has in today's world almost become a luxury service, especially with AI and Canva and other tools. A lot of times people think that they are a graphic designer. We now have smartphones with high-resolution cameras, so you can be a photographer Um, so it really is, uh, the mindset of the business owner where they want to hire someone to be a teammate and help them elevate their brand.

I've been using Canva for a long time and I would definitely not, uh, claim to be a designer, but you, you, you speak to a common problem. Um, as, as the tools become cheaper and more available, it, it opens up to people thinking more into the DIY. Um, but, uh, you know, I, I, I, the, the reality is you, you can't teach someone to be a professional, whether that be a designer or an accountant or a doctor or whatever, and, or a plumber, you know, like it doesn't, it doesn't really work, right? You either do something, uh, professionally and are good at it, uh, or you don't. And, and DIY tools, you know, have a place, but, um, they're not a replacement.

Correct. And I love that you said tool because that's what I tell people is that AI is not going anywhere. It is a tool. Uh, would you use a screwdriver for every project? No, it's just a tool in the toolbox. Knowing how to use it well, responsibly, and when is very appropriate. You know, it's important. I'm finding now a lot of startups, solo entrepreneurs are coming to us because they've utilized AI or some of these tools and then they've gotten so far down the road where now they're having to invest the money that they didn't want to invest in the first place because their logo file isn't the proper file or it wasn't, you know, it's not, it's not registrationable. You know, there's, there's all these different things that happen when you don't use tools when you're uneducated on the tool and then you create something and there you are, you, you have this stuff and now you got to work with it.

I've often said it, it's like that old joke about the plumber's rates. And it's like, you know, it's $50, um, if I do it, if you watch it's $75, uh, and if you help it's $100 an hour. And, um, you know, that, that is true in, in our job. Like I've I've said this to so many people, and accounting technology, QuickBooks— I started Core Group before QuickBooks even existed. That's how old I am.

And never would have guessed.

Thank you. I have a face for radio. This is why this is an audio-only podcast. We do record it in video for some strange reason. But in any case, my point was that With QuickBooks, I have never, ever, not once, zero times looked at someone's QuickBooks file as an accountant and seen something that was accurate. Now, have I seen some that were usable? Yes. Even people that had professional bookkeepers or full-time accountants working in the business, The thing with QuickBooks, which is kind of fascinating to me, and I wonder if we see this, maybe we do with Canva, and maybe you can opine on it, but like what happens, like with the accounting space, is QuickBooks is designed for the business owner that does not know anything about accounting, right? And so the user interface is entirely different. And so a professional bookkeeper generally hates QuickBooks because they get into it and they know what they need to do or want to do, but they can't figure out how to do it because the software is not designed for them.

Yeah. Yes.

Does this happen in Canva?

It does.

Or some other software, maybe not Canva.

Yes, because I will say, I will admit, I use Canva for clients because at the end of the day, it is a tool for me and I'm all about creating a box for someone versus forcing them into a box. So if for the company and the team, if it's best for me to design a product sell sheet in Canva so they can make adjustments themselves, then I'll do that. Obviously it's gonna look better if a professional does it versus them. But when I first was learning Canva, it's so different than other design softwares out there that it was not intuitive. It's like, okay, this is definitely made for somebody who's not a designer. Exactly. And now I need to— changed my way of thinking to function in it, um, which is quite fascinating. And, and now I just had a client the other day that I was designing their logo for them using Adobe Illustrator, which is, um, aside from Affinity, it is the best software out there to use when you're creating logos. And he said, well, just send it to me in Canva and I can make corrections to it. And I had to explain to them, no, it's, it's not in Canva. And, and even if it was in Canva, you wouldn't have a proper working file for your logo. So it's just fascinating to me because we've gotten to the point where you can be at the store and hear someone in the next aisle say, oh, that's Photoshopped. We now live in a world where people can recognize if something's been Photoshopped or something's been used with AI, but there's not enough of the learning curve or that intelligence to understand how we got there. They're just using these terms.

I'm still trying to figure out how cell phones work, right? I don't know. There's, there's radio waves in the air somewhere. I don't know how that works.

Right. Yes. The wiffy. It's connected to the wiffy.

Yes. And it goes on the interwebs. So, yes. But back to my point of like, you know, it's actually harder for professionals to unfuck something that you've done than it is to do it yourself. Right. And hence the different prices for the plumber. Right. Like if you're going to help, it's going to take longer. And it's not gonna be as good.

Correct, yes. And I— and, you know, the other part of that is the saying where the mechanic comes in and he fixes it within 5 minutes and the bill's $300. Well, he had the knowledge and he had the tool. You can get something done much faster and more efficient, but I've also been in the business 20 years, so of course I'm gonna be able to do something more efficient and better because that's what I do. If I wasn't good at what I I'm doing, then I shouldn't be doing it.

Absolutely. And that is, that is one of my main arguments that professionals and creatives should not bill by the hour. Like, the whole concept of billing by the hour puts you into a no-win scenario because as you get better at what you do, as you utilize tools and technology, you're going to be quicker and better at it, and therefore you should charge less. No, that's, that's exactly opposite, right?

Yes. And it does. I think it really depends on the person. You know, there are scenarios because I own the business, because I like to work with people, you know, I feel like all tides rise, all ships. So if a company is starting out and I, I see it as like a farming situation, you know, if I plant a seed with them and I help them out with their budget, then that's great. But then I also have gotten very good at reading the tea leaves. And if it's a client that there's going to be 87 revisions, correct. Like, we're going to have parameters in it. I think that creatives should protect themselves because accounting, 2 2 for probably the rest of our lifetime should be always 4 unless things change.

Well, you just don't— I'm sorry, you just opened the door for my favorite accountant joke. I'm sorry. And they were interviewing accountants. And the only question they asked them was, you know, what was 2 2? And they get to the final candidate and they haven't hired anybody. And they asked this guy, what's 2 2? And he leaned back in his chair and he said, well, what number did you have in mind? Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now.

Oh, okay. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. I like that one. I like that one. That's very good.

Sorry, I interrupted you.

Go back. No, that's— I'm glad you did. That's brilliant. I'm gonna steal that. I will give you credit to it. I'll put it in the footnotes.

I didn't— I did not invent the joke. I just repeated it.

Well, it's brilliant. It's very spot on. But to that point, 2 2 should be 4. But in creative design land, there could be endless revisions because design is something that makes us feel. It gives emotion. So often people will say, well, that makes me feel XYZ. They can't articulate how they want it to aesthetically be. They can just explain how they feel. And as a designer, you might like something and see it as this is the way we should go, but the client's not going to like it. So the revisions can be endless. So it's— I think it's very important for creatives to have healthy boundaries in the quoting process, in the revisions, because otherwise it could be a revolving door of just endless endlessness.

Oh, Absolutely, but that still doesn't justify charging by the hour. You can't, you can't talk me into that argument. I won't accept it.

Yes, well, I've also, you know, if you've worked your way up to have a good hourly rate, you know, this isn't a $20 Fiverr situation. It's, you know, you're charging, I mean, now professional designers can go anywhere from $100 to $250 an hour based on their experience and what they're working on. Working on. So, and I think that those people also at that point, they, they charge it because they know that at the end of the day they can be efficient. And instead of like, and I think it comes down to like morals and ethics. So if I know a client is tight on their budget and I can get something done for them in an hour, and yes, I probably could charge more for it, but their budget can only do an hour of my time, I'll get it done. Because—

well, no, no, no, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm saying not tying the outcome to a time unless it's a deadline, right? So like, I need a logo. I don't really know or care how long it takes you to make it.

True. Yes, yes, yes. Branding, branding prep packages are what they are. I'm talking regular graphic design work.

So you're like, you're paying others.

No, like, a client comes to me and, you know, I have a self-defense spray client that I do label work for them, you know, anytime they have any labels or changes. Not Mace, different company, not Mace. But it's easier for me to charge them by the hour because it's kind of like an attorney. They need one change on a label, it takes me 15 minutes, I do the work.

No.

Okay. Here's my example.

Here's my example, Jessica. Okay. When I was very new, oftentimes businesses come to us and they've got a whole bunch of shit that they haven't done for a long time. We call that back work. Yeah. And he, he was saying, well, how much to clean this up? And I said at the time, well, it'd be $100 an hour. And he blew his stack. He was like, I don't even pay my lawyer $100 an hour. And I'm like, okay. So I changed tax. I went and I asked the bookkeeper, I said, what's the most amount of time it would take you to fix this? And she said, I don't know, 10 hours. I went back to him and I said, it'll be $1,500. He goes, oh, okay, that's not bad.

I— yes, no, there's a psychology to it, you know, 99 versus the 00. Yes, yes, no, I do, you know, right? But no, he got— versus a dollar—

that he got stuck. And that's the problem with pricing is there's always some reference or anchor, right? And so he got stuck on his attorney's billable rate. And attorneys are the worst business people besides accountants in the whole world, so you shouldn't really use them as an example. But my point was, is that he couldn't get over that because he thought we were worth less than an attorney, right? So there were, you know, I was stuck on that, right? And you can't say I'm going to charge you by the hour and then like pad your hours because that's unethical, right? So I just shifted it to, okay, this is what I'm going to charge you and whatever time it takes us, it takes us. And that— he was tickled as punch.

Well, that makes sense. And I do understand it because in his mind he probably thought hourly rate. Oh my gosh, there's no cap. What do I do? This could go on forever. I don't have a set number for my budget.

Yes. Yes.

Yes.

And in your situation, if someone is anchoring against Canva, which is free, I don't know.

You actually have to— there is a free version, but there is a paid version if you want to do certain functions within it.

Okay, so, so I, I'm saying I'm anchoring in my head, well, I can do this for free. I don't know how much time it's going to take me. I really don't know how good I'm at it, and I don't know what it's going to look like, right? But it, but it, it comes back to— I think what you're saying is not getting, not getting sucked into that, because I, I think the DIYers of the world are not the ideal, um, professional, uh, customers, right? Like the person that's, that's gonna not go to the doctor and say, yeah, I got WebMD, I'm fine, you know, I don't need to do blood work. Yeah, I Googled it, I'm— it says I'm gonna, you know, die of cancer in 6 months, you know, whatever. Like, they're not the same people that are going to pay for professional advice or appreciate, appreciate professional advice. So the, the, I think the thing is to just not get engaged into that conversation at all and do what you can to keep those people from even coming and asking.

Correct. And there's, um, I think it's the book called Book Yourself Solid where they talk about the concept of the, the red velvet rope policy, that you hopefully get to a point in business where you have that VIP line of getting to work with who you want to work with. And when you interact with a potential client and you see maybe writing on the wall that either your personalities might clash, you might not be a good fit, they might cause a lot of problems, you're able to say, this might not be the best fit, you know, let me help you find someone else that might be a better, you know, working partner. Um, that's a great position to be in because over time I know I'm much better now than when I first started my business at reading people, at understanding are they going to nitpick? Are they going to micromanage? And the people that haggle about price versus understanding what the project and my years of experience and skill set are worth are different. You know, the person who haggles on price is going to be the bigger pain than the person who says, okay, that's your bill, that's in our budget, awesome, get it done, I trust you.

Um, yeah, so not accountants, um, not engineers. We're going to argue all day about that. Absolutely. Yeah.

Yes. Hey creatives, Delaina Ely here. I had a question for you. If you could pay yourself more, why aren't you doing it? For real. S corp is an option for you, the creative entrepreneur, to move your business to the next level, to pay yourself more, and to cut your tax savings down. Yeah, less money to the IRS. We want that, right? So why haven't you done it yet? What's going on? The reality is you probably have 50,000 questions in your brain. You don't know which way is up and down, and you're still too busy to do all those things plus also create, right? Well, the good thing for you is that Core Group is actually the place to be to get that S-Corp election rolling. Yeah, we have an assessment. Let's see if you qualify. Come chat with me. Core Group, turning Turning passion into profit.

Okay, so I'm gonna pivot here and ask a question. So why, if you have this deep background of self-defense type companies, why have you not exclusively targeted them?

Well, I do within the company have a division Design Pod Tactical, that on the website, if you go to designpod.studio, you can enter Design Pod, and then there's Design Pod Tactical. And I did that, to your point, to target them— no pun intended— because when I show up to a trade show, um, you know, chick, blonde curly hair, brown curly hair depending on what it's dyed, and I say I specialize in the tactical industry, they don't really— there's a disconnect, right? But if I'm able to have a website or part of the site with experience saying, I've worked with these brands, I know what I'm talking about. It lends to that. Not to mention it helps with SEO and all of the algorithms there. So I do definitely target that market, but I don't want to put myself in a box because, you know, we do love working with all sorts of different companies.

Okay, I'm going to push here a little, see how far you'll go. Yes. Um, do you think that there is enough work in that industry, like, to, to take your business wherever you want it to go, whatever size or revenue or whatever? Is there enough in that space to, to get you there?

Yes.

Not that you have personally yet, but like the whole universe.

Correct. Oh, that industry is absolutely massive. You know, if you think about during COVID the 3 top biggest sellers were obviously healthcare, firearms, and alcohol. I mean, that, I mean, yes, every industry goes through ups and downs, but there, it is quite a massive industry. And a lot of them do value good design and understand that it's needed to help sell their products.

Okay, so why are you hedging?

What do you mean hedging? Well, I'll tell you, I— when I first started, I'll be completely honest, you know, I started— I'd prefer to be— 2008. Well, I'm, I'm always honest. In 2018, when I started, I was going to come out of the gate with a tactical name. But I didn't want— that was even before cancel culture was really cancel culture at that time. I didn't want to put myself in a box where maybe I wasn't going to get brand new clients that were in the tactical industry as a new company. And let's be real, I was really, really— I am really good at design, but I was a new business owner. I didn't know what the fuck I was doing when it came to getting clients, sales, any of that.

So we'll boil that down. We'll distill that down to fear.

Oh, yes, it was. Okay. It was, it was the fear of I didn't want to put myself in a corner and limit myself when I knew that I didn't know what I didn't know. And I knew that. So I needed to keep my options open to be able to get the clients that I needed to be, to grow, to be successful.

So, so now 7 years onto it. Yes. Onto it? Is that even a word? Onto it. Into it.

Very British of you.

Onto it. Onto it. Here's another aside. We used to have a client a long time ago. He has since passed. I don't know if he had some type of Tourette's or— I really don't know, but he would say "onto it" randomly in the conversation. "Onto it," just like that. "Onto it." All right. And, and— but he never said anything else. It wasn't like Tourette's where— I don't really— don't think he had Tourette's. I really just think he said "onto it" a lot. Anyway, so you're 7 years into it. Um, yeah, it's crazy. We meet a lot of strange folks.

I love it.

You're 7 years into it now. You talked about that velvet rope, book yourself solid. Yes. Do you see maybe that you are splitting your efforts? No. This is not a critique. I don't know you. I don't know you at all. We haven't researched you. I'm just—

We've only been 20, 25 minutes into this new friendship. Right.

Yes.

Right. No. And I've gotten that question many, many times before. And the reason the answer is no is because it goes back to the mindset of the business owner. I can meet someone, and I have a client right now, she has been making soap for 40 years in Alaska. She is of the same mindset in terms of how she looks at design, marketing, investing in it as someone in the firearms industry. So I, yes, I do love that industry and it's a niche of mine, but I would much rather have a positive, healthy working relationship with the client than be in the right industry. Yeah. So I, cause to me, I tell potential clients all the time, it's like business dating. What I do is fun. This should be fun. And if you don't enjoy working with me, no sweat off my back. I will help you find someone else that you like the aesthetic of their design. You like their personality, but this should be fun. There's too many stressful things in business to have us not have fun while we do this. Um, so it really is about the business owner, not necessarily the industry.

Yeah, but being a branding person, I'm sorry, I'm not— does it cause any confusion? Right? Like, I'll give you, I'll give you Core as an example. Okay. We, we did a rebranding this year because our head of revenue said our old brand does not resonate with our target market. And I'm like, yeah, I, I wouldn't disagree with that. But now this is the reality. We've had some of our existing clients, what I call legacy clients, not target market clients. So we didn't just go through and fire everybody just because they weren't in our target market, right? This is a relationship business and our clients stick with us for, you know, on average, 9 years. And so like, I'm, we're not just going to get rid of those people. But what we saw when we did the rebrand is we actually had those people leave us quicker. Because I think subconsciously, they were saying, well, this isn't, this isn't my place. This isn't my people. Right. And, and I think that's the, that's how my definition of branding, like that means it was a success is because it's not only attracting the right people, but it's repelling the wrong people. So putting that back to you, is the tactical turned off by Podbean? Bean?

Pod? Pod people? Pod? Yeah.

Pod people.

No, it actually had— and now I have a business card. I have a few different business card designs based on what I'm doing because I'm a designer, right?

Okay.

But the one— because one of them is like a mini billboard on the front. It clearly says branding graphic design marketing strategies because Design Pod could be an interior design company. I could be an architect. It doesn't really tell you what you do. So I literally have a business card that's a billboard. I go to trade shows, here's my card, you'll remember what I do because it's really big on the front unless you have— you can't see, you're, you know. But then I have another card that, you know, all the cards have both logos on them, but they're— I see them as like stepping stones where it's both Design Pod, it's an entry point because at the end of the day they're still getting me. It's just allowing them to access the company through a door that works for them. And those that enter through the Design Pod tactical side, they might have a spouse that has a soap company or is a realtor, and in their mind, instead of putting me in the box of she only works with tactical companies, oh, she's helping our firearm company I actually have a cousin that she could help that is a realtor. I love working with Jess. I love working with her team. Let me connect her. So it— because people, they're goldfish, right? And if you tell them one thing, they're going to get stuck on that.

I appreciate you letting me push a push on that.

I—

oh yeah, because here's, here's the reality I believe to be true after— uh, sorry, the bird clock means it's the top of the hour.

Yes.

Okay, I think it's got one more in it.

3 is a good number.

Um, in my, in my almost 29 years of, of this journey of entrepreneurship, I, I, I can tell you that the fastest way to traction and profitability is a clear focus on who you're solving a problem for and, and, and what the value of your solution is. Um, and the tighter you can get that, um, target, that, that problem that you, um, solve, the easier it is to, you know, take care of their needs and to market to them. I also have seen in myself and in virtually every entrepreneur the resistance to taking that focus because exactly what you said is the fear factor. Like, I don't want to leave business on the table. And those are real things. Okay. So, but thank you. I'm going to pivot.

And I will— Go ahead. Before you pivot, I will say in the beginning it was fear. Now I own that we have Design Pod and Design Pod Tactical and that they are virtually the same. But again, it's not about fear. It's connecting with that person who wants to invest in good design. There's a reason I don't have pricing on my website. I very easily could be like many other agencies right now where you go to their website and there's packages for certain things. It's like when you go to a restaurant, you don't see pricing on the menu. You know that they're probably going to be really good, but probably more expensive. Right. So it, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So pivoting, what, what, what were some of the challenges that you encountered, uh, 7 years ago through the 7 years, um, in, in starting your own agency coming out of working for a private company? What were some of the challenges?

The big one is not knowing how to do sales for myself at all. You know, uh, how did you think you were good at sales? No, God no. I never even thought about it. I mean, I, I jumped out of the plane not knowing if my parachute would open. I did not have a business plan. I, um, kind of— I had a— I tell people an early midlife crisis and spontaneously resigned because of, you know, at that time there was kind of a takeover happening at Mace, and I saw the writing on the wall that we were all gonna be kind of let go anyways. And I saw that as an opportunity to either, you know, try my own thing or apply for other jobs. And I thought, well, screw it, I'll try to do this. And yes, I knew that I could figure it out. My parents had always raised me with the saying of say yes and then figure out how to get it done. And I'd always done that my entire life. So it's— you can learn it. It wasn't a matter of if I could, it was just how do I get there? And that has been something over time. And yes, what I do for a living is branding and marketing, but I think every entrepreneur overthinks their own shit to death. So, you know, I can tell— it's like when you have a friend who's asking for advice and you can tell them advice very easily and they can look look you in the face and say, well, why didn't you do that? You know, it's very hard when it's your own stuff. So that's been two of the big things is how do I, what are my core values and foundation of my company? How do I want to run it morally and ethically? And how does that connect to getting sales? Because there's a lot of different ways to run an agency. And what does that look for, look like for me? And my team and the future of my company.

So did you do any formal sales training? Did you just kind of learn it on the job?

No, I just kind of learned through, um, experience. Definitely over the last 7 years made mistakes for sure, but I will say that to date the majority of our clients come from referrals because I feel And I know that that does, at least for us, that works the best because people like to do business with people that they know, like, and trust. And especially in the creative world, going up to someone saying, hey, your logo's not so great. That's like telling them they have an ugly baby. Doesn't go real well. But if they know their baby's ugly, using that analogy, and they understand that they need help in whatever area and they have the money for it, that already starts the sales process. Then it's just about closing it in terms of do they like myself, the team, do they like our type of work? And that's much of a smaller gap to close versus me trying to explain to them why they need us in the first place. So over time it's been learning that sales process and selling ourselves as to what we're good at. In the very beginning, good Lord, someone would come to us and I'd say, yes, we'll do it. We don't do that now. If it's not something that we're really, really good at, we say, we're not really good at that, but we know someone we can introduce you to. And I think that that's very important in terms of growth because you can't— unless you're a massive, massive company, you can't do everything really, really well.

No, you're 100% right. And I think that the quicker that you figure out the nos, like this is not This is not what I want to do. This is what we can't make money at. Like figuring out the nos quickly is a recipe for success. Getting bogged down in those things that you should say no to, that can be a nightmare, frankly. So anything else that you didn't know you didn't know? When you started out?

I think a lot of the everyday business things like accounting, creating contracts, proposals, how to quote a job. That was something in the very beginning I had, you know, no idea what to set an hourly rate as to then calculate what a project would be, how much, how much time.

We already discussed that.

No, I know that, but to give you some sort of base baseline for what a project would cost you, right? You know, just because you go online and Google says it's going to be, you know, average range is $500 to $5,000 for a logo design. Where are we at? Right. You know, all of that was very difficult to decide because when you're in the beginning, you want all the clients, you need the clients to succeed, but where's your breaking point? At what point do you say, yeah, we'll do it for that cost. Versus no, sorry, we can't.

Yeah. Yes, 100%. And I, and I, it kind of goes back to that statement I said, knowing, knowing what the problem is that you're solving for who and what the value of your solution is. And when you're, when you're dealing with the things like marketing and even to a certain extent accounting, I, maybe all professional services, they're, they're very intangible and it's hard to quantify the value. And oftentimes it does go back to what you mentioned, which was feelings. Yes. And how do you make someone feel? I just finished Unreasonable Hospitality. Have you read that book?

I have not, but I've heard, I've heard very good things about it.

It actually inspired me. It reinspired me. I waited tables many years ago and I always loved it and I loved the hospitality aspect of it. But this guy who was one of the founders of Eleven Madison Park, which went on to become the number one restaurant in the world. He was talking about all of us being in the hospitality business, you know, and it's really how do you make people feel? Try explaining that to a bunch of accountants because, because, you know, in their mind, like I did, I did the work, I did it right. They're very linear analytical thinkers, right? I did the work. I did it right. I did it on time. Why are you not happy? Right. And trying to make them understand that it's not what you did, it's how you made them feel.

The customer service aspect.

Right. And that's something we spend a tremendous energy, amount of energy, time, and money on in our education internally is around emotional intelligence and communication styles and, you know, all of those things because That's the difference between doing business with us and other accountants is not the math. The math is 2 2 4, whatever you want it to be, right? Yeah. You know, but, but do they feel, do they feel heard? Do they feel seen? Do they feel understood? You know, those, those— exactly. Those, those are the most important things that you deliver in service, whether, whether it's graphic design or accounting.

Yes. But all of that comes from the foundation of your branding, how your company's built. You know, you guys probably within everything that you have, those elements are in there, right? Like your, how you treat your, your internal team, how you educate them, how that's passed forward to the client. All of that goes back to your foundations of branding. You know, I tell people, you have to figure out what your mission and your core values are because that is going to be your true star north. And if you understand that customer service and how you interact with your clients is something to be valued and that it should be treated a certain way, that needs to be across the board in every aspect of your company then.

Yes. And I think that, you know, treating, treating your internal team, as well as or better than you do your customers is really critical. That old statement of like, if you take care of your people, they'll take care of your customers. And that is true. And there's also this understanding that you can't assume that your team knows what that looks like. Because, for instance, none of my employees are ever going to be business owners, right? So a lot of the conversations are around getting into how, what their day looks like. What, you know, like accounting is what you think about all day, every day. It is not on their mind every day, all day, right? Like it's an afterthought, right? Yeah. And so like getting Getting your team up to speed on understanding what the customer's experience is like is important because they're never going to experience it. Like, I had a guest on here that was talking about customer service and he was talking about a client of his, which was a high-end hotel. He said, well, most of the staff, like your maids and your house cleaners, they're never going to stay in a place like this. So you can't assume that they understand what the standard should be because they're— it's not that they don't want to, it's just that they don't have a frame of reference.

Yeah. No, I mean, that's very, very true. And I, I— it reminds me, I have a client who every time he brings on a new team member, he does either like a DiSC assessment or some sort personality of assessment to understand where their strengths are so he can put them in the best spot and also be able to communicate with them better because he understands as an entrepreneur and someone who has several businesses that not everybody has the same experiences, will have the same experiences in life, um, or can communicate in the same way or process things the same way. You know, you can say one, the same thing to 5 different people and they might take it 5 different ways just because of the way that they, their learning processes.

Absolutely. So, um, anything that you have learned in the last 7 years that you would, uh, like to go back and tell yourself, uh, from 7 years ago?

I like— guess what?

Watch out for this one.

Oh, for sure. I had a client that I put all my eggs in one basket, and when that did not work out well, then that— I started out at ground zero again. Um, and so I, I once heard from someone, when you go into business with someone, that you should treat it kind of like, um, planning for getting divorced. Not that you ever want to get divorced, but you should prepare as a business owner that when you enter into a partnership, whether it's client, company, you know, two business partners, you plan for divorce because you protect yourself. And had I had that mindset going in with that client, then I would have covered my ass. But they were people that I had known for over a decade and I felt comfortable. And when they were put in a position they ended up choosing morally and ethically not the right route. And many of us got the short end of the stick. And now I trust people, but I also, in the back of my mind, plan for how can this go wrong? Not that it's the glass is half empty. It's the realist of you need to plan for both positive and negative. And I think, you know, But it got me to where I am now. I very much believe that things happen for a reason and I needed to learn certain lessons and I clearly learned it well.

So, well, you were, you were good then. It takes me like multiple times of getting beat over the head to learn the lesson.

So, well, we're not talking about dating life. That's a different—

oh, okay. Okay.

Yeah, business is different.

And that's often a challenge for, for, for new business owners because they don't understand that, uh, everything is on their shoulders, so to speak, and the, the decisions, uh, are yours to make and yours to live with, and no one's coming to save you. And, and, and, um, people look out for their own interest 99 times out of 100, right? So if it's me or you, it's going to be you. Jessica's gone, like, not me.

Oh yes, yes, and that was this exact situation to a T. People that I thought would never cross me or throw me under the bus, I was very clearly looking at the bottom of the bus, and that's interesting. Yeah, I was like, oh okay, I saw who was driving that bus. Note to self. And when, um, I'm lucky that I learned so quickly and that there were things that turned around for me, but it was a big slap in the face of, okay, Jess, you really fucked up here. You know, you— not that you shouldn't trust, but that you didn't plan properly. And then once I heard that saying of always plan for divorce, it was like, okay, that makes sense. So yeah, I think that that's one thing. And also the idea, as cheesy as it sounds, work work-life balance. I love what I do, but to your point of it is on your shoulders all the time, I think it's important to have a healthy work-life balance, whatever that looks like for you. I'm still working on that because I do love what I do, but asking for help, you know, when you realize that you might not know what you don't know, or you don't know what you, you know, asking people. There are people that I'm very, very lucky that I have individuals in my life that have been in business 30, 40 years that I can go to and say, hey, I'm in a pickle. I don't know what I'm doing. What do I do? I can't see straight. I'm— the walls are closing on me. That happens in business. And being able to say, okay, I might be screwed in the situation, how do I get out? And being able to say that, that makes a strong business owner. A lot of people don't want to admit their faults or admit that they need help, and that is going to make you very successful waving the white flag of somebody help me.

Yeah, entrepreneurship is— I mean, you can do it solo, but it's a lot harder. And I think for me, the struggle has been holding these two things in mind at the same time of confidence in where we're going. But the lack of clarity of how we're going to get there. And that manifests itself in a lot of different ways, one of which is, you know, I do have to ask for help because I don't know. But I still have to have the confidence to move forward, which is hard to do sometimes, to hold those two things.

Yes. And because someone can give you their professional opinion, their experience being in business for very long, but it's up to you to make that decision. No one's gonna make that decision for you. So you could have 5 different opinions and you're like, okay, that's super great. It's like being a little kid again. Can you just put me in timeout? Like, give me a snack, make me take a nap. And everyone's like, no, you need to do that yourself.

That's exactly right. So Jess, if people wanted to learn more about DesignPod, how do they do that? Or DesignPod Technical, I want to throw that in there.

Well, you can get to both by going to designpod.studio. Studio. And then you can also connect with me on LinkedIn, uh, Jessica Adnitsch.

Jess, thank you very much for, uh, going along this journey with me and, and playing, playing ball. Um, listeners, if you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. We'll have her link in the show notes. And if you don't like that, shoot us a, a message and let us know what what you'd like to hear, and we'll get rid of Jess. Until next time, ta-ta for now.