Steve Hochman: Lessons in Leadership from a Con Artist's Son

It wasn't even right away. A lot of things I did by accident when I first started being a business owner in a good way. It worked out for me. I was just so excited to have money and not be living in a car or I just couldn't believe it. I actually get paid. I was making 7 figures helping people get fit. It was just like, I couldn't believe it. But really it wasn't until I would say I was about 30, honestly, that I realized that I had a lot of traits that my dad had. A lot of times, what we hate and what we despise, we don't even see it in ourselves. And I didn't realize that I was like on the edge of becoming him. I was really good at marketing and hyping things up, but there's a fine line between hyping something up and lying and going too far. And I would realize I was kind of like on the edge of going too far. And I was really good at persuading people. And I would realize that sometimes I would persuade people and it might not have been in their best interest. I was thinking of my mission. This is The Chris Project, where we where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world.

Welcome to another episode of The Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me is Steve Hockman of Steve Hockman Inc. Steve, welcome.

Thank you. Thanks for having me, Chris.

You bet. So tell the audience your brief story of who you are and how you got here.

Yeah, 100%. You know, I was born in 1974, so I'm 50 right now. When I was about 5 years old, I noticed some— I just knew something was a little off. I actually had really bad Tourette syndrome as a kid, super bad. That was before it was popular and you could get away with swearing at people and not get in trouble. And so I was always sort of an outcast. Like, my personal development was really slow. Like, obviously I was a loner. No one wanted to be friends with the weird kid. And I totally understand that. Even in sports, I was an athlete, but I was always the last person picked all the way until high school. I was not even last person picked, just kind of left over because I got to go on one team. So when in high school, my dad was a con artist, by the way, I forgot to mention that, which I didn't know till way later. So we were getting, I didn't understand why we were constantly getting kicked out of apartments and houses and living in a car and back in a house, then in a car. And I thought it'd be a great way to get my aggression out and my frustration out and also possibly to get a scholarship and get out of this car to go out for football. So in 10th grade, I went out for football. For me, it was like therapy. And I trained really, really hard and I ended up becoming All-American and getting a full scholarship to the University of Miami. But once I got there, I was so underdeveloped just socially that I did okay. I did pretty good, but I ended up dropping out of college towards the very end my senior year and I was homeless again. And at that time I was obese. I was about 287 pounds. So here's where the story all comes together. So a friend of mine, one of my few friends that I played football with, I linked up with him after college and he was really overweight. We were both linemen, we were trying to be big and we just didn't know how to, we didn't know anything about nutrition. And when I linked back up with him, he was shredded. I'm just a full six-pack. And he became a microbiologist chemist and he explained, he really explained to me nutrition in a way I've never heard before. And I just started 25 years ago applying what he told me. I got super lean. And I was always athletic and fit. People started noticing how fast I changed and they wanted me to help them. That turned— one person turned into 10, which turned into 100. And before you know it, at 23 years old, I had a 6-figure business. I opened my first gym. It was a 7-figure personal training studio. From there, I ended up opening up several indoor boot camps, fitness boot camps. Back in the day, they were only in parks. It was unheard of to do indoor boot camps. So we had one of the first ones. I ended up partnering with someone who had a big influence with personal trainers. We created a fitness franchise that became the largest in the world with over 600 locations. I ended up selling that and then I started opening up private fitness boot camps and doing personal coaching and fitness and nutrition coaching online. I mean, that's the short of the long story.

That is, that's a lot to pack into 3 minutes. Okay. So there are several things that piqued my interest. I've heard of Tourette's. I don't know what it is. So explain that to us.

Yeah. And you know, by the way, I guess I didn't mention an important factor. I don't know. Some people grow out of it like it could, like they could just subside. I don't know if it was partly I willed, I just willed it out of me or I partly grew out of it. But basically, It's when you make uncontrollable noises and head shakes and twitches and sounds. And when people ask me what it was like for me, it's kind of like if there was a fly on your hand, you're gonna move it to give you the relief of the weird feeling of the fly crawling on you. And then 3 seconds later, the fly is on your hand again. So you're just gonna keep moving your hand. It's kind of like that with your whole body and your whole vocal system. It's like you have this thing that builds up in you and you, move or do it, it gives you relief and then it builds up again and it's pretty much 24/7. The only time I really wasn't feeling it is when I was playing sports. Like I was up at bat or on the football field making a play. But other than that, it was like torture 24/7.

So I guess it's a neurological condition or no?

I mean— Yeah. No, it is.

Is it treatable with medication or?

That's questionable. They gave me medication. They tried a lot of different medication on me and they had weird side effects. I don't know. I really didn't notice a difference with medication. It just really sucked, to be honest with you. It sucked. Like, I remember, like, in junior high or in elementary school, going into a new class, like, in a new semester and just being like, man, this is going to suck. Everyone's going to have to get used to me. I couldn't stop it. It just— I couldn't control it. And yeah, I don't know if medication really works or not, to be honest. I don't know. All I know is for me, I just was like, I'm not doing this. I'm not going to be this way for the rest of my life. I've always been really strong-minded. And I think it was a combination of— I've heard sometimes when you go through puberty, it could subside. And I think it was a little bit of both of those things. For me, I was very fortunate.

So do you still have those feelings and you can control them or no?

I would say if you were to give it a percentage, it was 100% at its worst. I would say it's like 8%, but I could totally control them. And it isn't something that affects my life in any way whatsoever. Nobody knows I've ever had it unless I told them. It's not a factor in any way for me other than I could empathize with people that go through things.

So what did you learn from your dad being a con artist? I mean, you said you didn't know, but obviously you were influenced. Uh, whether you know why your parents do what they do, you still experience it, right? What did that— how did that show up for you as an entrepreneur? Like, what that experience was.

Yeah, you know, sometimes you, you learn negative lessons and sometimes you learn positive lessons. I learned a lot of what not to do. I learned a lot about— actually, I learned a lot of leadership from my father. There's so much power every time. I love when I'm wrong. I've never seen him be wrong ever in my life, because that's part of being a con artist, is that you just con your way out of everything. But there's so much respect that you get, like, if you're wrong and you realize it and you tell someone, you know, I always tell someone the right way to apologize, whether you're a kid or an adult, is to first say, "I'm sorry," say what you did, and then say what your plan is to make sure it never happens again. Really simple. And to take full ownership of it, not partial ownership, 100% ownership, no excuses. This is what I'm gonna do to make sure it never happens again. And I learned what it felt like when someone never apologizes and I know they're wrong. They don't look strong, they look weak. And a lot of people want to look strong, especially you're a business owner. If one of my employees, if I don't know how to do something and I fake like I know how to do it, everyone knows it. And they know I look weak because I am weak and I'm being weak. But if I say, "Hey Chiara, can you show me how to do that? Honestly, I have no idea. I know you know how to do that, but I don't. You're so much better than me. Can you show me how to do that?" Number one, it empowers them. And number two, it gains respect because you're honest, you know. So those are some of the lessons I learned in business from my dad, for sure.

Yeah. And I, I experienced that a lot when I was a younger business owner, that, you know, the faking it because you don't want to appear weak. And I didn't realize that I was being weak in that. I don't know if it's kind of a masculine machismo thing too, of like, you know, you want to, you want to be independent, you can figure it out, you can do it yourself. And, and those are some characteristics that, that, you know, make good entrepreneurs in some aspects, right? They need to be driven, they need to be self-sufficient, uh, self-motivated. At what point did you cross that line and realize, oh, I don't have to be right? Like, when were you able to lay that down?

That's a good question. It wasn't really until— it wasn't even right away. You know, a lot of things I did by accident. When I first started being a business owner in a good way. Like it worked out for me. I was just so excited to have money and not be living in a car or I just couldn't believe it. Like I actually get paid. I was making 7 figures helping people get fit. It was just like, I couldn't believe it. But really it wasn't until I would say I was about 30, honestly, that I realized that I had a lot of traits that my dad had. A lot of times what we hate and what we despise, we don't even see it in ourselves. And I didn't realize that I was on the edge of becoming him. I was really good at marketing and hyping things up, but there's a fine line between hyping something up and lying and going too far. And I would realize I was kind of on the edge of going too far, and I was really good at persuading people. And I would realize that sometimes I would persuade people and it might not have been in their best interest. I was thinking of my mission. And I mean, just being honest with you, I didn't realize I was doing it. I was doing what I hated. And it wasn't until I got some really great mentors in my life, and it's not like they shed a light on it for me that what I was doing, they just showed me how to lead in the right way. And that illuminated it for me. It just made it clear myself. No one had to tell me. I just realized how easy it is to slip. And by the way, that also is what allowed me to forgive my dad for being kind of a— he used me in a lot of ways. I was like his thing. He wanted me to go pro to make him a bunch of money. And it was never about a father and a son relationship. And I have kids, so I could never imagine wanting something from my kids. That's insane to me. But it also made me realize that parents are just people. And if a broken person has a kid, it doesn't mean— it might give them maybe the catalyst to fix what's broken, but it's not a guarantee. And there's still that broken person doing the best that that broken person can do because maybe their parents were broken people too. And I'm really glad that I was able to break that cycle. But I also, it allowed me to forgive my dad. 'Cause I think we have these expectations on our parents. Like just 'cause they're our parents doesn't mean they're just not normal people also. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yes, we all go through that when we— usually in our 20s— when we realize that our parents are not these superhumans. Uh, you know, you go through the rebellion of teenage, you separate and create your own person, but then you come back and you realize, oh well, that, you know, they're, they're normal people and they're doing the best that they can do. I like to use the phrase— my wife uses it more than I do— but It's like, well, give me grace. This is the first time that I have ever been in this. This is the only— this is the first time I've been a 55-year-old parent to a 30-year-old. Right. I think the missing ingredient for me was humility, honestly. I mean, I think— and I think true humility can only come when you feel powerful. In other words, if you're just a— if you're just a meek or humble person and don't have any self-confidence, don't have any power, then you're just a doormat, right? Like, that's true humility, true meekness, if you will, is having the power and withholding it. I could righteously do this, but I choose not to. What do you think about that?

Yeah, I think, uh, Jordan Peterson said, said it really really well. He says something about how a lot of weak men, they don't have a choice, but a strong man that can actually hurt you is being strong by not hurting you. And that is true strength. And I do agree. I think a lot of problems in society, in business, and just in relationships come from lack of confidence. And I think a lot of people think you're just born confident and some people have a certain amount of confidence, but I think you have to earn confidence with yourself. So it's like, I will ask someone, if you had a friend and your friend said, "Hey, I'm gonna meet you at the gym and work out with you and I'll be there at 5 in the morning." And then you show up and they're not there. And then, you know, they say, "Hey, I'm gonna support you in this race we're doing." And then they don't show up. And then, you know, they just constantly lie to you. Would you trust that person? You know, how would your confidence be about that person? But most people lie to themselves daily. All the time. I'm going to start eating healthy starting New Year's. And then they don't. I'm going to get up and work out. And then they don't. I'm going to get this to-do list done. And then they don't. And then they're like, I don't know what I got to do. I'm just not confident. And it's so easy to correct. You just start doing the little things. You make a list of the things you're going to do that day and you do them. And over time, you start believing in yourself. You start— when you say, I'm going to start this business, it's like I tell a lot of people that aren't fit at all. If you say you're going to eat healthy, and I relate everything back to fitness, but you say you're going to eat healthy and you're going to work out and you don't, you're going to get up early, but you get up and you don't feel like it, you hit the snooze. But then you say, I'm going to start this business. And you wonder why it's so hard to get off the ground. It's because you don't believe in yourself. You haven't done the little things, so why would you believe you could do the big things? And I mean, a lot of problems can be fixed by just increasing your confidence by just doing what you say you're going to do.

I, I think that's sage advice. I think I read it first with Mark Divine. You know, it's something along the lines, the way you do anything is the way you do everything. And, you know, I, I see that with business owners. I think a lot of times people start businesses and they may, may be successful, they may not be, it doesn't really matter. They, they kind of create their own worlds, right? And, and they think that they control all the variables. Which of course they don't. But, but it keeps them, and it kept me, because I had a small amount of success early, uh, it kept me from having to deal with those character issues. I say character issues, that it's probably more broad than that. It's, it's just the, the things I didn't want to address, um, because I didn't have to. But this idea that you're somebody different in the workplace, uh, and as a business owner than you are at home is, is a completely false narrative. I mean, you, you are the same person. You bring the same beliefs. You, you bring the same energies, you know. So I, I see it a lot with people's finances, you know. They, they can't, they can't control their own personal spending, and then they get into a business and wonder why they don't have any money. It's like, well, I mean same beliefs, same habits, same activities. You're just doing it in a different place.

Yeah, I see it all the time, what you just said, where you don't address certain character things because you don't have to. You know, I live in, in Orange County. My original OC Fit location is in, you know, it's in Irvine, which is very close to Newport. It's just, it's in a nice area. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if Irvine's bougie, but Newport is definitely bougie for sure. Down the street is bougie. But, um, I see a lot of guys that are really wealthy and they lean on that. They lean on that success so much that they don't have to, they think they don't have to look at their weaknesses. And those weaknesses could be relationships with their kids that they're not looking at because look how successful I am over here, or with their health or with their fitness level. You know, it's like, look, I talk to people a lot. I'm like, all right, cool, take off your shirt. Oh, you don't want to? 'Cause you really hate looking at yourself. All right, well, let's address that. And can't keep giving the excuse, well, my business, my business, because how are you going to— I always tell people, whatever pain you have, if you don't solve it, you're going to pass on to your kids because how can you give them something you don't have, like the solution? So, if you know you haven't got this under control, then you can't give it to the people you love. And that's really the pivotal moment that changed everything for me was when I really just realized what my purpose was and what aligned with me. And what aligns with me, luckily for me, what aligns with me is helping people. And I don't want to just help people in one way and also being a great husband and father. And how can I really say I'm a great father if I can't give my kids the basics? I don't just mean a roof and all that stuff, but I'm talking about how to be strong, how to be healthy, how nutrition works, how to start a business, how to be a leader, if I— how to have a great relationship with, with your spouse. If I can't have those things myself and have the— if I'm not the solution, how do I give that to my kids? And, you know, in my first marriage, I actually stayed in there way, way, way too long. And I, I was like a lot of parents, which I thought I needed to stay for the kids, but it was really, I was just giving them a blueprint of how to have an unhappy relationship. Like, watch me not be happy so that you could then do what I do. And the best thing I ever did was find my soulmate and be in a wonderful, healthy, amazing relationship and set the bar for them so high that they don't accept anything less than that. I just think it's like that with everything. I always tell people the biggest thing I did was I got out of my own way. I really try not to make anything about me. And a lot of people kind of conflate this into meaning like living a life of sacrifice. And it's not that. I have to live an amazing life so that I could give that to someone else. If I'm like saying, "I sacrifice everything so I could give to others," no one's going to want what I got, because what I got sucks. So, you know, you know what I mean? You have to make it— you could only give what you have. So you got to make sure you have all the best things so that you could give that solution to those that you love, in my opinion. The Chris Project is sponsored by the Rupp Group Coaching and Consulting. If you are interested in implementing some of these suggestions that you've been hearing about, or in general you feel like there's parts of your mental game, or actually your implementation strategy that you feel is lacking and you love the opportunity to actually start to build yourself into the person that can create the success that you're looking for, please reach out vis-à-vis the link in the show notes to grab a free consultation with us to see if we can help elevate your mental or your business game. Thank you very much.

I agree with that. So let's pivot to the big franchise. Was it a franchise gym situation? Okay, so you sell it. Was there ever a point where you were like, identity crisis? Like, what am I going to do now? At that, at that point of contemplating the sale or right after the sale?

No, let's actually— this is going to be really helpful. Hopefully they can learn from my mistakes on this one. I've made a lot of mistakes. So first, going back to my childhood of being a loner, when I first got on social media, which was— I just got back on social media less than 2 years ago. But back in 2006, when I was creating this franchise and co-founding it, I got on social media. I grew really fast. And I was coaching people all over the world while I was creating this franchise. We were doing these big seminars everywhere. And I kind of felt like a rock star. And unfortunately, I didn't have my principles and my character formed yet, completely formed yet. And I started believing some of the hype. My ego got really big. I really started hyping things up a lot. I was coming up with product after product after product. And it got to the point where I really just didn't like who I became. I just finally realized like, oh my God, I'm becoming— I'm going down the path of my dad. This is crazy. I can't believe, like, how did I even get here? And I really wanted out. I had brought some advisors onto the company and along with my business partner that I was 50/50 partners with in the franchise. And it was time to sell. I wanted to sell, I wanted to get out. And I did a horrible job. I should have done my due diligence. I should have got outside advisors. I really sold this company I undersold it so much. It was contingent on certain performance parameters. I really just should have really got a true valuation of the company. I should have taken that and the leverage that I had and applied it and done— if I would advise someone now, it would've been to do all that. But I didn't. I really was trying to rush it. I really wanted out. I just didn't like the path that I was going down. So, when I sold it, I didn't have an identity crisis. I actually knew exactly who I was. So on one hand, I sold it for way too low, but the other hand, I was very proud that I sold it because I did not have an identity crisis. I knew exactly who I was and who I wanted to be. And no, um, immediately I opened up, you know, another 6 gyms and, uh, they did very well. I mean, trust me, we went through some struggles. Don't, don't get me wrong. But, uh, that's kind of where I was at. I actually found myself. In that process.

Well, that's, that's an interesting twist because most people have the reverse. They leave the business, they sell the business, whatever, then they don't know what to do with themselves. You had that beforehand, and so you, you had this compulsion to sell the business because you wanted the change, like you, you wanted to be something different. Is that Accurate.

Yeah. I just wanted to be the person I was supposed to be and the path I was going down was, you know, also, you know, another thing, when you franchise the type of business that I had, which was a fitness bootcamp, it's not like a McDonald's where it's just a conveyor belt. The hamburger goes in on one side, it comes out done. Anyone could run it. It's so personality driven. But you know, when you own a franchise, you have staff, you have growth, you have marketing, and you need revenue, which means you have to continually sell franchises in order to grow the business and to stay ahead of that curve. And I realized like, man, on one hand I have to keep selling these things, but on the other hand, I'm selling to just regular business owners and I know the vulnerabilities. I know a lot of these guys aren't going to make it because they're not in the fitness industry. And I just didn't like being, again, that con artist thing. I wasn't lying to them, but I also wasn't selecting the right people because we had to keep growing. And I just, something in my conscience, just, it just, I didn't like who I was becoming. And I would be dreading going to our corporate headquarters and selling all these franchises to people that honestly, I'd probably talk them out of buying it. I don't think it was for them. I just didn't, that's not who I am. I'm not here on this earth to be this. I love making money, Chris, but I love being a good person better. And I don't need to choose. I could do both. And I was really having to choose a lot of the time when I was running that franchise.. And I just had enough. That's not like I said, I was going down that path and thank God my dad was that con artist and I recognized it because maybe if I didn't, I would've stayed on that path. I don't know.

Well, it's interesting you said that because I, when you first mentioned it, I was like, well, couldn't you change who you were and continue in the business? But it doesn't sound like the business model allowed you to do that. Was that accurate?

Yeah, it would've gone under if I hand selected, if I really made everyone, I mean, the right way to do it would be if I had everyone come to our corporate headquarters, every candidate, and then we put 'em through training and we qualify them. I mean, that's a process that would've had to happen. And over time, if we had the right funding, it would grow. But that just wasn't, it wasn't feasible to do it that way. And so we were, yeah, we were selling basically over the phone. People would want to buy our franchise, we're qualifying 'em over phone, but it, and it didn't work for a lot of people. It didn't work for a lot. And, and I felt horrible about that because I know some people might have spent all their savings to, to buy a franchise, open a location. And, you know, I know what it's like. I know what it's like to be homeless or, you know, to, to have everything and then not have everything. And yeah, that's kind of where I was at with that.

That would be a very hard thing to do. To— I mean, you know, I, I think the reality is most entrepreneurs are good salespeople, right? And couple that with a desire to help people, you know, you can put yourself in situations where you're saying yes to people that you should be saying no to because you can't help everybody. That's, that's the reality. But it's, it's easy for us to sell them that, that we can't Well, I would justify it.

I would justify it because I was like, well wait, these two school teachers who like, they were basically completely broke and we did get them to buy one of our franchises. It, we coached them, it worked out great. They ended up owning multiple six-figure franchises and they did amazing. And so you're like, well, I mean, it worked for them and I'm an optimistic person. Maybe it'll work for this person. What, who am I to take away this opportunity? You know? I just, it's easy to justify. It's not like I was knowing it wasn't going to work, but you know, I always tell people there, we all have an internal mechanism called our conscience that tells us right and wrong. It's really easy. A lot of time we tune it out. If you just listen to, some people call it their gut instinct, their conscience, whatever that feeling is, that's right in this area of our body. It's never wrong. And you just know when you're doing what you're supposed to do and when you're not doing what you're supposed to do. And it's kind of that simple, but could be complicated at the same time.

I am a CPA, but I'm not a fraud expert. But what I have learned about people that are fraudsters, they don't necessarily start out to be fraudsters. It's they cross that line and then they don't know how to get back. And I think to your point is to stay on the side of the line and even the detriment of your financial wellbeing. You're like, well, I'm going to sell this for less than I think it's worth because I can't step over that line.

And that part was a mistake. I want to make it really clear that wasn't like me being a good guy. That was me being dumb. Like I could have got out and sold it for a lot of money. I just want to be honest, Chris. I made a mistake. Like if I got some good advice, Probably if I talked to you, if I was like, hey Chris, this is my situation, what do you recommend? Anyone would've probably recommended to me like, dude, you need to get that business valued first before you do anything. Get it valued. I guess since then I have sold businesses and I know the process. That was my first time. Like you said, give me some grace. It's my first time. But with that being said, I really should have consulted with some people and I thought some people were my friends, but at I don't fully hold it against them because at the time they were working for the best interest of the corporation, which is not my best interest. And even though they were longtime friends of mine, their job was in the interest of the corporation. If they could get me to sell it for dirt cheap, then they did great for the corporation and they'll have to deal with their conscience on that one. But yeah, I definitely made a mistake in that and, and I was way too hasty to get out of it just because I wanted out. But I could have stepped away and sold it the right way at the same time, but I didn't, you know, and that was a, it was a mistake that I made for sure. That was on me.

I don't agree with you. I mean, I agree with you that it might have been a mistake financially, but it was not a mistake for you personally. And you can't always quantify, but it sounds like, and you, you still believe this, that it was the right decision to, to sell it, right?

100%. 100%. Yeah. You know, it's funny when the last time I was with my dad was right after I dropped out of college and I was homeless again. And he was staying in this tiny apartment in Fontana. I don't know if you're familiar with California, but if you end up in Fontana, you made some wrong moves. I mean, it's a hellhole. You don't ever want to be there. And I remember he was on this couch. It's this little studio that He was bumming this, like, this couch off of this guy that lived in this tiny place. And I was on the floor, you know, those with the thin, tiny carpet with cement. And I remember I was looking up and my dad was snoring and he had a cigarette, like a lit cigarette in his hand. I was just looking at the ash. It was like an inch. It was about to fall on my forehead. And I hear some gunshots outside, which is pretty normal for Fontana. And I felt something on my chest and it was a cockroach, man. And I sat up and that was like the pivotal moment. I'm like, I'm not on this earth for this. I have a purpose that's way different than this. And that was when, you know, that was like a pivotal moment for me. But another pivotal moment was when I was selling these franchises and feeling like a con artist. And again, I was like, I know I'm not here. This isn't what I'm supposed to do. This isn't why I'm here. I have another purpose that's bigger than this and better than this. And so yeah, morally and personally, 100% the right decision. But I would, I, I hope people could learn from me business-wise, slow it down, consult with multiple people, not just one, you know, get multiple valuations, talk to people who have sold businesses, the understand the entire process and the different ways you could do it. And then make your decision based on that.

Was there any fellow entrepreneurs that you did have relationships with at any point in this journey that assisted you? Not necessarily with the selling, but just like these feelings that you had.

Oh, you mean like of selling it for the—

No, no, no, just, well, like, you know, I, I'm not who I'm supposed to do. I, I need, I need to be something else.

You know, at that time I really didn't. I wasn't, no, I, it was just so clear to me. I honestly, God, I didn't, I've had a lot of great business owners that have been mentors to me and that helped me in that moment though. It was just so clear to me, like the way I felt inside my body. I just knew this wasn't for me. I didn't have to get any advice on that one. I've gotten a lot of great advice, but that wasn't one of the times.

And since then, you, you continue to have mentors?

Yeah. You know, in the business world, you know, it's interesting. I have some mentors in the online world because when I jump back in online, I mean, a lot has changed, you know? And I mean, there's a lot, there's a lot to it. You know, I jump back in and it, I didn't like explode, but it, I started growing, you know, at a good steady rate. But yes, I consult with people on that. I'm still consulting with people on the social media part of it. Just the marketing end of it and the overall strategy. 'Cause there's just so many overall strategies. It's not just putting out content, it's putting out content in a pattern where people really understand exactly who you are. They could easily digest, this is this person that solves these problems and just really finding your demographic and marketing to that demographic. And I mean, the internet's such a huge, it's huge. So you have to really dial it in., you know, in order to be successful, unless you just get lucky, which some people do.

Do you, are you a mentor to others?

That's my favorite thing to do. So, so really, you know, I, I think when people find what they would do for free and they do that for a living, I, I think they're the most lucky people in the world. When, when people say, when you do what you love, it's not work, that's not true. That's not true at all. There's a lot of things that I do for what I love that sucks. I hate sitting in front of a computer. I hate it. I literally hate it. But I have to do it. There's certain things that I just have to do. But when it comes to coaching people, yeah, that's the main thing I do. So I actually— you know when I said my friend was a microbiologist chemist, taught me this method? So I've been helping thousands of people get lean and healthy for 25 years. Without counting a single calorie, a single macro, cutting their calories, starving themselves, or any of that. And I have a different method that I do it. And so I have a book coming out in early January. I've been working on for the last year and a half, and I've been coaching people both in person and online. And to be honest, that's what I love. Literally every week on Sunday at 1:00 PM, I'm right here in this chair. On this computer. I, I coach people all week, but we have weekly calls where we just solve problems, where I'm just solving problems. So their job is during the week to just really take note of anything that's holding them back, any, any mistakes that they just repeat over and over again, any, uh, habits that are not aligned with them that they just can't seem to shake, or of course deeper questions on nutrition and all that stuff. And we just rapid fire, just solve 'em. And to me, that is the most fun part of the week. I love it. And I just want that to grow. I just wanna do that all the time.

I love it. So where do people find out more to, learn about your coaching and your nutrition?

The best way right now is just Instagram. So it's stevehockman.driven on Instagram. That's the best way right now.

Love it. Well, Steve, I appreciate your candor and your experience sharing. Very much appreciated it. Listeners, if you like what you heard, please share the podcast, rate the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like it, shoot us a message and let us know what you'd like to hear. Until later, remember, you are not alone.

Thank you for listening to The Chris Project. You are important. Your work is important. Do not give up.