Susan Snow: From Trauma to Resilience

Vulnerability is also something that there has been a stigma around men, especially allowing themselves to be vulnerable so that they're able to process their feelings and their emotions. And I always say this, being vulnerable and having that vulnerability is not a weakness. It's actually a strength.

This is The Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mind mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world.

Welcome to another episode of The Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today is Susan Snow. Susan, welcome.

Thank you for having me.

When I see Susan Snow, I think of Jon Snow, and then I think maybe you might be a bastard, but I don't want to put that on you.

I get that a lot, actually.

Yeah, we've all watched too much Game of Thrones. Right. So for our audience— yeah, sorry, my brain. Yes, I frequently get told that I should just shut up because I don't have much of a filter. Anyway, Susan, why don't you tell the audience who you are and what you do?

All righty. Well, who I am. I am an author. I authored my own memoir 2023. I self-published it. It's called The Other Side of the Gun: My Journey from Trauma to Resiliency. It chronicles my life. I am the daughter of a Los Angeles police detective who was ambushed and murdered on Halloween night of 1985 while he was picking up my brother from school, who was 6 at the time. I was 17. And then my mom and I were called to the school and witnessed the aftermath and his body. And so my story is about living with PTSD, not understanding that as a child. But yeah.

So I'm not going to guess how old you are, but you're not 16.

So no.

Why?

I guess what triggered the need or the desire to write a book? And after so much time had passed.

Yeah, well, first of all, the book was always in the back of my mind as I got older.

Mm-hmm.

The issue I had is that I was not mentally prepared to write a book like that until I was 50.

Mm-hmm.

And at 50, I kind of drew a line in the sand. And said, "I gotta get this thing done." Initially, this book was more because pretty much my entire life, I was kind of pushed onto the back burner.

Mm.

And a lot of my story played out in other people's heads, and they formed ideas of how I should have handled things or what I should be like as a person, you know, because of this— tragic thing happening to me. And a lot of the times I found that story they were telling in their head was not correct. And so I wrote the book initially, obviously, to help heal myself.

Yes.

I had done enough mental health work in order to do that, because in my book I'm very vulnerable, I'm very authentic. I put it all out there. Nothing is hidden. And I needed it to be that way. Yes. So that was partial of the reason of writing the book. The other part of the book is that even years later, you know, we're, we're at 39 years, there are still folks out there in the law enforcement world that are still filled with rage. And sadness around my dad's death. And I felt like if they saw me and saw the resiliency side of me and knew that I could get through this, that it would bring some sort of healing to them. Mm-hmm. In the process. So basically, I made the purpose of writing the book other people besides myself that needed to hear a message of hope and a message of healing. So that's where it was born.

Have any of those officers reached out to you since reading the book?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I've had several. I was honored to be called to talk to the Los Angeles Police Delegates September of 2023 and tell my story. And most of the delegates had not been on the force since my dad died. I did meet a gentleman who said he remembered the story because my dad was the catalyst for him joining LAPD. Which was such an honor to me. And I know it would be an honor to my dad for sure. Some of the other gentlemen that were there actually worked some of the details, whether it was the funeral or— because the funeral was— it was like a president had died. It was— there was so much pomp and circumstance because, first of all, in the annals of LAPD, it was the first time an officer had been actually ambushed and assassinated for doing his job. So it was a big, big deal. And there was a lot of men and women on that detail that I have met. The other one was we had two different trials because there was so many men involved in the planning and the actual carrying out of my dad's murder. So I've met men that were in that detail as well. And hearing the stories about that, seeing how my book affected them, knowing like it did do exactly the purpose of writing it— it showed them the resiliency, it showed them that I healed from it. And that I'm continuing to heal from it. And it did. It made them feel better. And it was such a humbling experience and a full circle experience to be able to speak in front of them and to them and give them my message.

So you said, you know, you were 50 when you were writing, decided to write the book, and you did it to help these people that you knew that were still— you used the word angry, rage. What do you think the difference between you and them, how you dealt with the trauma and how they dealt with the trauma, what do you think the key difference was that allowed you to go a different path?

So I talk about this a lot with law enforcement. A lot of their job is compartmentalization and the realization them not coming home one day is a part of their job. It is a part of their mentality, right? It has to be. They know what they signed up for and still signed up for it. So I feel like— and I have heard this over and over again— they don't deal with it. They push it onto the back burner. And then when something comes up, it triggers it. It triggers that rage. It triggers that frustration. It triggers that sadness. Because they don't deal with it. And I've heard that over and over and over again, unfortunately, for many, many years. And it's just now coming to the forefront. The conversation around mental health in law enforcement is just now coming to the surface. And I'm glad. I mean, the conversation continues. It needs to continue because it really— there's so much to that. You know, there's so many different ways that they can attack that situation. But I do hear from people that have been in the, you know, in the force years and years and years that they wished that they had taken the time to deal with their emotions and learn how to self-regulate their nervous system and all the things. And most of the time I hear this from officers or past detectives that are no longer, you know, they've retired and they've decided that this is the time they want to start working on themselves. And they start to go into therapy because they realize once they're off the force and they're not having to compartmentalize anymore, that all of this stuff is just coming at them like a freight train. And so I hear a lot of regret, a lot of men and women who were in that situation had so much regret for not taking care of themselves. Because, you know, it does. If you don't work on your mental health, it branches out to other parts in your life. And so what I hear from folks that I talk to is that, you know, maybe my marriage could have been better. Maybe my marriage wouldn't have failed. Maybe I wouldn't have, you know, picked up a bottle of booze and became an alcoholic or whatever it was. Right? Because it becomes a self-sabotaging cycle. Yeah. And when I— it saddens me, but at the same time, like, the ones that I've talked to, you know, I told them, like, it's never too late. It's never too late.

I agree. I think part of this is— and you see this in, in the entrepreneurial world as well. I mean, it's, it's just a reality that the majority of entrepreneurs, and I assume that the majority of law enforcement and military are men, and there's a stigma attached. I'm of a similar age, and I can think back about when I was young, and there is a stigma around just emotions in general, right? I guess some emotions are acceptable. For men, like anger or rage. Those are acceptable feelings. But what you were describing, that, that not coming home, what that is at its base is fear. Absolutely. And fear is not something that a man is supposed to admit to, right? Having fear.

Right.

But the reality is, and I interviewed Todd Henry on my other podcast, he's an author His latest book is called The Brave Habit, and he talks about— and this is not a novel concept— but the idea of being brave is not the absence of fear. It is the ability to do the thing in spite of the fear.

Exactly.

So I, I think if men could get over the idea that, that feeling afraid is a bad thing, you know, Fear is a natural response that you can't regulate. Like, your, your brain is hardwired to fear for a reason.

It's, it's self-protection, right?

Absolutely. It's normal to feel fear. Yep. But can you be afraid and still do the right thing? And doing the right thing could very well be just dealing with your emotions and learning how to process them. Well, and not being so stoic.

Exactly. And that's a lot of the conversation I have is about being vulnerable. And vulnerability is also something that, you know, there has been a stigma around men, especially allowing themselves to be vulnerable so that they're able to process their feelings and their emotions. And I always say this, like, being vulnerable and having that vulnerability is not a weakness. It's actually a strength. And in my situation, especially, it was— I felt like with my vulnerability and being able to be vulnerable enough to tell my story in a way that I needed to do that, I was actually taking my power back. And so when I talk to people about vulnerability, I tell them, like, think about you're being vulnerable in whatever it is that you're dealing with, but at the same time, like, you're taking that power from it back. You're, you're not allowing that to envelop you and that is all you are, or that is all you identify as, is— and it goes into victimhood. Right? So it's, it's actually a strength. And I said, if you can be a vulnerable man, especially because I can't speak for this because I'm not a man and I don't know, but from the men that I've talked to, and especially men around my age, the Gen Xers, you didn't talk about your, your feelings. Your parents didn't allow you to open up a lot of times about how you were feeling. And so you just stuffed it. And because you stuffed it, you know, the men that I've talked to have said, I felt weak in that. I felt more weakness in stuffing my emotions than I think I would have if I had just been able to let it out. And I think that's the conversation that needs to turn a bit is that you're not losing your manliness by being vulnerable, right? You're not. It's just you're human. We're all human beings, and we all have the same abilities to go inward and be vulnerable and work through our emotions as human beings. It doesn't matter if you're a male or you're female.

Yeah, as you're talking, I'm thinking, you know, like I first got introduced to the concept of vulnerability in leadership by hearing Brené Brown speak. And, you know, she was taking a more academic approach to it about the reasons why vulnerability and leadership are good. But I think back about my own journey and like when I was making mistakes, this is not a situation where trauma happened to me. I was suffering the results of my own decisions. Mm-hmm. It was impossible for me to be vulnerable because I felt like I had to fix it. And at the end of the day, I'm just really kind of coming to this realization through this conversation. That's pride. That's the ego that says I have to fix it. And from my faith belief, that's untrue. Like, I don't believe that we can solve our problems ourselves, right? Like, I don't believe that. But even if you, even if you approach it from a secular standpoint and say, well, I don't believe in God, God's not going to solve my problems or doesn't care about me or whatever. But if you isolate yourself, you can't involve anybody else in solving your problems, you've just from a practical standpoint, you've narrowed your chances of solving that problem dramatically. Because you're it.

Yeah, like I said, you have to go inward. And A lot of people are very afraid of doing that. Sure. And that's okay too, because we are human.

That's a natural reaction. Your brain is trying to protect you from those feelings.

Absolutely. But what I can say from my own experience, and I say this all the time, if you allow yourself to be brave enough to really heal— and when I say this, I mean, like, it took me 2 therapists to figure this out. Bad therapy when I was 17. And, you know, you and I are around the same age.

There was no talk about mental health in the '80s other than, than someone needing to be medicated or committed.

Exactly. Like, if you went to a therapist, you must be crazy. That, that was how I felt. And the gentleman that I was voluntold to see He never even asked me how that night affected me the entire time that I was with him, which was an entire year of therapy. And basically, I was going through all the things that PTSD brings, which is the depression, suicidal ideation. I had anxiety, panic attacks. I mean, you name it. And being a child, being a 17-year-old, I had no tools to deal with all of this. And so I literally felt like I was out of control. Mm-hmm. Internally. Now, externally, nobody saw that. But internally, I was a mess. And every time I saw this man, I was like, today's the day he's going to help me, you know? And it didn't happen. And after a year, he looked at me and said I was a well-rounded young lady. And he didn't need to see me anymore. I was going to be fine for the rest of my life. And he sent me on my merry way.

And you're sitting there going like, wait a second, I'm not fixed, right?

I said no. My, my mentality turned into, okay, you're broken, you're broken, you're crazy. You're going to have to deal with this for the rest of your life like this. You're going to have to figure it out. You're going to figure it out. By yourself. And so I went into fight or flight.

I lived in fight or flight for 14 years of my life, which is very destructive.

It is. It's very destructive. I didn't do anything destructive. I always had that. I didn't go into victim mode. And part of it is because I watched my mother go there. I watched my brother go there. And I was like, I want nothing to do with that. So I always had that fire in me. I always had that survivor fight in me, but I still had no tools, no regulation, no nothing. And it kept me from seeing life the way I deserved to see it. I allowed people in my life that would use me and abuse me, and they weren't like friends, you know. I have a chapter in my book called Rose Colored Glasses because that's what I did.

Is I looked at life through rose-colored glasses and kind of went the opposite direction. I did. Being victims, everything's awful.

Oh, everything's fine.

You denied reality the other way.

Yeah, I used what's called your emotional mask, right? People would say, oh, you're so brave, you're so strong, you know. And so that was, that was the mask I put on. You know, I'm brave, I'm strong, this doesn't affect me. Like, I'm fine, right? The I'm fine was it. So I went through that.

If you're telling yourself I'm fine, that should be a red flag.

Exactly. Now I know that.

I'm fine. Everything's fine.

Yeah, no, that's when people say that to me when I ask them how they're doing and they say I'm fine. I sit there and I just kind of look at him like, uh, why don't you spill it? Because I know you're not fine. Which helps in my coaching. So, I mean, you know, it wasn't until 14 years later and unfortunately another tragedy had happened. I moved to Colorado in 1997 and we were here 2 years. I was working as a hairdresser at the time. In 1999, on April 20th, Columbine shootings happened, and I was working that day. I had taken a break, turned on the TV, and saw all the coverage that everybody else was seeing. I had a visceral reaction.

Sure you did.

And I started sweating. I turned white, white as a ghost. None of my coworkers except for one knew my story. I didn't tell anybody my story. So as I was sitting there having a full edge panic attack. My coworker was looking at me like, what is going on? You're too young to have kids at that school. And I know you don't live anywhere near that area. And I said, yeah, I don't know what's going on. I really don't.

But you did.

I did and I didn't. I was just like this. I don't have kids there. Like, why should this— I was asking myself that question, like, what is happening? That because I don't have any kids there. Like, I— my kids are little. I couldn't put two and two together. Right? So I did what I normally did. I put that mask back on, I walked out, I finished my day with my clients. Now everybody around me was crying and upset and mad and all the things, right? And I was like, oh no, this isn't going to affect me. And the minute I walked through that door, all of the things that I had dealt with at 17 came flooding back. And I was hurting and I was, I was spiraling and I knew it. I didn't know what to do about it. So I thought maybe in a couple of days it'll go away. It'll just go away. And it didn't. And after a couple of days, my husband met me at the door and he said, you have two choices. You either go get help right now or I'm putting you in a hospital. Now, this man was with me the night my dad was killed.

Mm-hmm.

So he knows this. He knows I was on a slippery slope, right? So I did. I put up the white flag because part of me wanted to leave this earth. Like, I didn't want to be in pain anymore. I didn't want to feel this way anymore. I just— but part of me was like, you're a mom now. Mm-hmm. And You can't leave your babies, right? So went and saw a regular doctor, you know, a physician. And he put me on antidepressants because that's what they do. And then he handed me a card and he said, I want you to make an appointment with this therapist. And I literally laughed in his face and I was like, haha, I tried that 14 years ago. It didn't work. So what makes you think it's going to work now? And he said, you have no choice. So I was like, okay, and I made an appointment. And thank God I did, because that woman that I went and saw specialized in severe trauma, and she really specialized in PTSD. So in the first 3 minutes of our appointment, was at a point where I was like, okay, I just gotta I just got to tell this woman. She was asking me very specific questions. And I just let my guard down. I felt comfortable and safe with her. So I told her everything that I had gone through at 17 and what I was currently experiencing. And this woman looked me straight in the face and she said, "Everything you've gone through since you were 17 is normal because you have PTSD." And I kind of sat back and I was like, wait a minute, I wasn't in the military. I didn't go to war.

Right.

What do you mean? And she said, no. She said, anyone who goes through traumatic experiences can experience PTSD. But what you need to know is that PTSD isn't something that goes away. It's something you learn to manage. I always describe it like it was like the sky opened up and rainbows shot out because I finally felt like, oh my God, I'm not crazy. I have hope. I can heal from this, or I can heal through this. And this woman is going to help me. And I was so elated and so grateful that, you know, I was sitting in this woman's office. And sometimes it takes 3 or 4 or 5 of those type of conversations with people for you to feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable enough to be able to do that work. But she knew it.

I think a component of that vulnerability is not just what other people would think of you, right? You know, how are they going to react to what you're telling them, but also having to feel the feelings again, right? Absolutely. And I think your point is, is fantastic that it doesn't go away. Like, those, those feelings. So I talk about this on this, this show, that trauma is relative, right? Like, your trauma and my trauma, we can't set those aside and, and compare them, right? Because it's how you, you reacted to whatever happened, right? Right.

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And my trauma— when I was 2 years old, my parents got divorced, and I lived with my mother for a year, but then my dad got full custody. And so at 3 I was taken from my mother and given to my father, who was single. He had not remarried at the time. And it's been described to me what happened, but I can't remember it. You know, that's, that's part of the brain that is protecting me, right? So I have no memory of that transfer. But I was told that I was hysterical. I, I was screaming, kicking, you know. Of course. And the thing about, you know, revisiting that in my adult life is that even though I can't recollect the events, the underlying emotions are still there, right? And you can get to the point where you can maybe recollect what happened without letting the emotions overwhelm you. Yeah, but they're still there. And in a lot of ways, it's like grief, you know, you, if you've lost someone, the grief doesn't follow a specific pattern, like something will trigger you, you'll remember them, and you'll feel sad all over again. And that's the same thing with traumas, like, you know, yeah.

And, you know, here's the other side of that too, is in speaking to a lot of people, different people. There are people walking around on this earth that have been through trauma, but because as a child this was an everyday environmental situation, they felt like this happens in all families and therefore it's normal. And then as they get older, What happens when you have trauma that has not been dealt with is that it manifests in different ways. And so, you know, that's where addiction comes into play, that's where alcoholism comes into play, you know, that's where just self-destructive behavior comes into play. And a lot of times people don't realize the core to the reason why they're doing this. And for instance, I had a woman that I had spoke to who was on her way to the rehab for the third time, and she had children. And she said, you know, every time I got pregnant, I went— I stopped drinking and I went to rehab and cleaned myself up. And, you know, but the minute the baby was born, it started up again. And so when we talked about it, She actually saw my book and she said, "Well, I haven't been through this kind of trauma." We're talking about the comparison thing. And I said, "Well, that's okay, you know, but there's a reason why you feel the need to drink. And have you ever dealt with that?" And she said, "No." She says, "You know, I don't think I had any trauma." I just know, like, my, my childhood was a little weird. And I said, oh, well, tell me more. And she told me that she was basically molested by her mother's boyfriend. It happened to her brother as well. It was known within the family and nobody did anything or said anything about it. So she just thought that this is how you live. And how you work. And, you know, this is how men show you love. And it caused her a lot of issues. And then obviously feeling bad about herself started the drinking. So I told her, when you go to these rehabs, have you ever told anyone your story? And she said no. And I said, Has anybody asked you? And she said no. And I, I was kind of flabbergasted. But this is obviously a disconnect, right? And so I said to her, I said, here's what I want you to do. When you go to your next rehab, you, you're leaving tomorrow. I want you to tell anyone you can your story. Because I feel— and she said, I want to get sober so badly. And I said, what would that look like for you? And she said, Susan, I said, what would that look like? What would be the one thing that you would want so badly that you're willing to do whatever it takes to make that happen? And she said, I would like to wake up and have a smile on my face. Knowing it's going to be a great day. And that just broke my heart. But at the same time, her face lit up because she real— like, she realized something, just like I did sitting in front of that therapist. Something clicked in her. And I feel— I don't know, but I feel like she has that fire. She has that purpose. She knows what she needs to do. And I told her, working on this stuff sucks. I'm not going to candy coat it. It is not easy diving, reliving, re-feeling those feelings. However, when you do, the freedom of that pain is priceless. And not having that hold over you is priceless, and it gives you that extra step, that extra oomph, that extra strength to get sober. I sent her on her way, and, and I hope, I hope the best for her. I really do. But that really gave me an aha moment to the fact that there are people out there that do compare trauma. So because their trauma isn't a murder, isn't sexual assault, isn't, you know, anything to that extreme, that it's not trauma.

Right.

But like you said, everybody's trauma is different. Everybody— everybody's experience is different. And you can't compare.

Yeah. And I think, frankly, that that's just an excuse. It's like, well, I didn't go through X, Y, Z. Therefore, I don't need to deal with it. Like, you know, but to your point, I think that's, that's the hardest part is you got, you got to feel the feelings. Absolutely. And that does suck. And but once you realize that you can feel the feelings and it not destroy you, it is liberating. I learned the technique Actually, when I became a Certified Master Coach, the gentleman that was teaching us used a technique that I think is very helpful, has been very helpful for me.

Was it NLP?

No, it was very, it was very simple. It was when you're feeling a feeling that is negative, you don't resist it. You don't try to push it away. You let the feeling come up, but you visualize it as a balloon. Yeah. And then you let the balloon go. Yeah. And then if you start feeling the feeling again, you do the same thing. And but what you realize in that moment of that visualizing the release, it's not like there's a detachment. There's not— there's not a— it's not you.

Right. It's not— it doesn't define you, right? Either. Yeah. It's funny because the first thing, since I was a hot mess express, when this second therapist met me, she knew I had a long road ahead of me and she didn't want to overwhelm me with everything all at once. So what we did is we created a plan and we figured out what was the one thing right now that I can deal with. And at the time, I wasn't, I wasn't sleeping. And I went through this in the beginning as well, where I didn't sleep for almost a year after my dad was killed. And I wasn't sleeping again. And that exacerbates a depression. Yeah, everything pretty bad. So she said, okay, here's what I'm going to have you do. And I had never heard of this before. So I thought she was kind of woo-woo when she told me, but she was like, I want you to journal. Have you ever journaled? And I said, mm, don't know what you're talking about. And she said, well, you can do it in different ways. Some people will journal through art, some people will journal through writing, and some people will journal through music. Now there's podcasts. She says, so what is your flavor? What would you like to do? And I said, well, you know, I like to write. So she said, okay, I want you to take a pad of paper and a pen and leave it by your bed. And right before you go to bed, I want you to journal everything that's swirling around in that brain of yours, like everything. And she gave me a couple of prompts. And so I just kind of looked at her like, alrighty. So I went home and the first night I did it and I thought after I started to journal and get everything out, I was like, huh, feeling a little bit better. And I still was waking up in the middle of the night, you know, and by the second and third night, I started sleeping a little bit more. And by the third night, I passed out and didn't wake up till like I opened my eye and it was light outside. And I was like, wait a minute, this actually worked, right? And I didn't want to admit it. It's like, not something so simple like that can make a huge difference. So when I saw her the next week, she said, so how did it go? You know, what happened? That kind of thing. And I was like, well, I hate to admit it, but I was sleeping like a baby on the third night. And she said, okay, well, I want you to continue to do this. So this is a practice that I continued with, I still do. And especially when things around me externally are really hectic and overwhelming, that's when I step up and I really start to journal more. Because it does, it can literally regulate your nervous system, getting all of that stuff out of your brain. So she started out with that. And then the next thing we attacked was my anxiety and my panic attacks. And she taught me breathing techniques, breathwork, which I teach other people, and just, you know, fell in line after that, you know, until I got to the big guns, which was the EMDR work.

So I think your point is— I'm summarizing to like, if you're having feelings that you don't want to have or your behavior is not what you want. I think it's the first step is like, are you willing to ask yourself why? Right? Like, why are you feeling this way? Why are you behaving this way? And I think you can't go through that journey alone. I, I'm not saying that you necessarily have to have professional help. Because to your point, there are bad therapists. Yeah. And I'm not saying that you have to have professional help, but you you've got to get it out of your head. Like, if you leave it in your head, you're never going to resolve it.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I don't know about you, but when you have stuff swirling in your head, like, for then, it went to a dark place. It went to a very dark place. And then you have this feeling of, oh my God, I can't get out of this. Right. And that's not a point where you want to get to. And so you do need people, whatever that is for you. And that's the other thing, like, there is no one-size-fits-all, right? You have to find modalities to help you cope with and move through these different emotions, whatever works for you. And I think that's the most important thing, because honestly, the only people that can heal you is you, but you have to do the work in order to do it, you know. And you can't— no one's going to be your savior per se. You have to find it within you, right? And we all have that. We all have that ability as human beings to heal ourselves. We all have it. And it's just a matter of finding the people or the things that help us and guide us through whatever it is that we're trying to move through. And so for me, you know, as I get older, you know, I'm starting to do more meditations and guided meditations and things like that that really kind of clear the mind and create a space that's safe and a place where you can actually start to manifest the things that you want in your life. And so, you know, that's a whole different podcast. But yes, but I just think that it's really important for people to understand that they have it within themselves. And, you know, just because I did it, I'm not special, right? I don't have superpowers. I had someone to help me to open my eyes to realize that this is something that I could heal from. You don't know what you don't know, right? And so the only way that you're going to be able to know is to do the research, to know what is going to be best for you and how you want to move through your healing, whatever that looks like for you.

I will push back on you and say that I think that you have something that not everybody has, which is courage. I think that's the difference. Like, do you have the courage to face the fear and proceed anyway.

Well, and I tell people this. So like I said earlier, in the very beginning, I told you about the book. There was so much fear. There was a lot of fear writing that book. It is not easy to put your whole life out there for everyone to see, right? And know that about you. And there were several fears that came up. My mom and I did not have a very healthy relationship. Still, you know, well, we have— I'm no contact with her at this point, but we never did. And I knew that writing this book, because I had to tell my truth, I had to tell her truth. So I had a fear that it was either going to destroy what was left or it was going to open a conversation, and I had to be okay with either one. The second fear was that it would do something to harm my, my relationship with my husband, because we've gone through a lot together and there was some trauma there as well. And the third was obviously my safety, because two of the men were still in prison, and me putting myself out there to the point that I am was terrifying. You know, was there going to be any retaliation? But here's what I did. Every time I had those fears pop up in writing this book, I always tried to put the faceless people out there that needed to hear my message, that needed to have hope, that needed to see that someone can go through something so horrific and heal from it, and that they're able to heal from whatever it is that has hurt them. And every time I focused on my purpose, it allowed me to drive forward through that fear. And so I have a tagline, bulldoze your fear. And you do, you have to bulldoze through it. You can feel it. I absolutely felt it. But at the same time, you have to just put whatever that purpose is, whether it's, you know, relationship or career that you've always wanted, or whatever it is that you want your life to look like. If you find a purpose, and you focus on that, it allows you to drive through that fear and get to the other side of it and do what you need to do to heal through it.

Well, Susan, I'm thankful that you wrote the book. How can people purchase the book and find out more about your coaching?

Okay, well, my book is on Amazon. It's in paperback form. It's also on Kindle. Again, it's called The Other Side of the Gun: My Journey from Trauma to Resiliency. And as far as coaching, I am working on a website. I haven't quite got it together yet. So I do have my speaking. I'm also a speaker, an international speaker, and that website is susansnowspeaks.com, and it has information on the book on there. It has information on my speaking as well. But there is a part where you can reach out. I am open ears. Someone wants to reach out, um, if they would like a free 40-minute introductory type a session with me, they can contact me through that website.

Perfect. Well, thank you for your time and for your experience share. I very much appreciate it. We'll have all of those— that information and links in the show notes. Listeners, if you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. And until then, Remember, you are not alone.

Thank you for listening to The Chris Project. You are important. Your work is important. Do not give up.