Tension in Leadership: Lani Jones

This is the Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world.

Welcome to another episode of The Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today is Lani Jones of— I almost said Hotel Bravo Lima— uh, HBL Advisory. Welcome to the show, Lani.

Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

It should be interesting if, if history is any indicator. So, uh, what do we do at Hotel Bravo Lima?

Uh, yes, at HBL. I was going to attempt to say all that, but I— yeah, I lost it. Uh, I am a clinical psychologist by training. Um, I've now transitioned into the coaching and consulting sphere. So in my advisory group, uh, we provide both one-to-one, uh, coaching for executives, entrepreneurs,, but then also work with businesses and organizations developing their leadership teams, addressing culture, communication, clarity issues, things like that.

So you're a licensed clinical psychologist, correct? Yes. Whatever. Counselor, I guess. LPC. Yeah.

Is that so? Doctoral level. So I'm a psychologist.

Yeah.

Okay.

Did you happen to listen to my episode with Dr. Patel?

I did not hear that one.

No. Okay. Dr. Haidt, you're not the first doctor I've had on here, you know.

I noticed in the guest list, but no, I didn't. Okay. I don't know, maybe I subconsciously did not listen to the doctors. Maybe we could unpack that. Maybe that's the thing.

I don't know. So, okay, the two that I mentioned, one was a professional stuntman and still is a professional stuntman, Dr. Haidt. And he did his doctoral. Dr. Patel was an entrepreneur, exited his business, and then decided to go back in his 40s and get his psychology degree or doctoral, which I— in sexual dysfunction, of all things. And I said, I think you're crazy. What is your origin story? How did you become a doctor of psychology?

So I was never the person who had like their life planned out, degrees planned out. I never had any intention of doing a doctorate, but we just kind of kept on going one degree after another and found myself. I started my career in a hospital setting. That was my dream job. I was super excited about it. Love the work I was doing, but quickly got out, got burnt out. On the setting and just bureaucracy.

That sounds awful. That was a dream job, really? That was what you wanted to do? Okay.

All right. Yeah, that, that, that was the full intention why I chose my school where I did my doctorate, all the things, um, because I was working as part of an interdisciplinary team. So working with, um, 8 or 9 other medical specialties. So I love learning from them. We were seeing the complex of the complex. Um, so I love being challenged. I like being in positions when I'm not the smartest one in the room and I don't know the answers and I really have to work for it. Um, I like that intellectual stimulation. And so yeah, that was at one time my dream job, but then a few years in had an oh crud moment, uh, to put it mildly of like, I've spent the last decade or more working to get here and it wasn't what I thought. So what do I do now?

Yeah. Yes. So is that when you started the coaching business or what did the journey look like?

So we had another stop in there. So I opened my private practice. And so that was one of the things that was firmly in the things I do not want in life column. I never wanted to be a business owner or figure out, you know, payroll and tax codes and things like that. But came to love it though, came to appreciate how business outside of like a practical income stream can actually help you create an entire life that's fulfilling. Um, and so COVID was another one of those major changes for me. Um, up to that point I'd been doing a lot of the testing evaluation side of things, so autism, ADHD, things like that. And then COVID hit and everyone was at home. Kids weren't in school, evaluations weren't happening at the same level, and everyone needed therapy. So started doing way more therapy, uh, than I ever wanted. But out of that, I had started working with, um, a group of executives, entrepreneurs, of how do we lead a team well through a global pandemic, or you're going through a reorg in the office but a divorce at home. And so After working with that clientele, I was like, man, I really love merging my love of business with all my psych people skills. And under a coaching consulting heading just gave me a lot more flexibility in terms of how I showed up for them, what my work with them looked like. And so about 18 months ago now, I closed my private practice and started making the transition.

Fascinating.

Okay.

I've got a couple of thoughts rolling around in my head. Are you, as a doctor of psychology, ready to take the stand and go ahead and classify entrepreneurship as a disorder? Because I have been thinking this for a long time.

Maybe we're at subclinical levels that there are consistent characteristics and there are correlations we can find in the research of who shows up as an entrepreneur. I would take that stand. I'd go there.

Good. I haven't got anybody else to commit to it. So you're, you're my first one. I— Dr. Patel and I have been friends and colleagues for years. And as he was going through this journey, he, he's, he set out on this journey because as a patient of a therapist, and he and his wife doing counseling together, he, he said that his experience was it was really impossible for a normal therapist as an employee to really be able to advise and counsel an entrepreneur because of a disconnect of experience. Like, you know, it was like, you're really worried about that? You know, the counselor saying, you know, that's your, that's your problem and not having any context to, to speak on it. What do you think? I mean, do you think— do you— let me rephrase the question. Do you think without having owned a business, you could in fact coach other entrepreneurs well?

In terms of just the business entrepreneur piece, I would say no. In terms of other clinical therapy things like addiction, sure. So does it mean that everyone who has to— who is an effective addiction therapist has to have experienced that? I would say no. Right. Um, but on the business entrepreneur side, I think it's definitely a leg up of understanding, merging with so many of my clients I work with. We talk about, yeah, how do you show up in the office but show up at home? Because we're taught to like compartmentalize and, well, just put that in this box and this goes in this box. But really it doesn't work that way. Like, everything is influencing one another, especially, especially as an entrepreneur. And if you're the breadwinner, like the stress, the impact of that shows up not only in your work, but how you're showing up in a marriage or relationships, parenting, like whatever it looks like. And so, yeah, if I had not been an entrepreneur myself and business owner, no, I would be way less effective in this realm.

Well, that's good to hear. Um, when Piyush and I, before he was Dr. Patel, uh, he and I were having this conversation and He made a statement. He said entrepreneurs don't have good coping skills. And I was like, well, you know, I've never heard it put in those clinical terms, but you're right, we don't. And I made the leap and he kind of went along with me. And we've discussed this thread that I think for a lot of entrepreneurs, if not most, the business is their coping mechanism. What say you? I told you I was going to quiz you.

I'm ready. Yeah, let's keep going. I think a consistent theme with entrepreneurs and the ones that make them most successful is because there is some kind of chip on their shoulder. And we could define that chip in a lot of different ways. But it's that drive, it's the watch me, it's I have to prove something, which a lot of those things probably come from some unhealthy— what we would say clinically is unhealthy, or the fact that their relationships outside of work aren't that healthy, or even in their own home aren't that healthy, because work is what they know and what they thrive at. And even if they were some unhealthy drives, it's made him very successful in the business world.

Yes. Do you run across a lot of narcissists in your coaching? Not narcissistic behavior, but like, yeah, classical narcissist.

I tend to filter those out of who I work with because I have worked with so many clinically. That I— that's just not my cup of tea. I don't— that's not best for them. That's not best for me. We'll say it that way, of who's going to be most effective working with them. And so I find, though, to the ones I have encountered, it's usually because a board set a stipulation of you have to go work with a coach or a partner gave them an ultimatum. And so rarely just by those narcissistic personality traits are they going to seek out growth and improvement truly for growth and improvement outside of some external motivating factor?

Yeah, they're probably going to approach it as, as a narcissist would, of like, okay, how can I check this box and manipulate the situation so that I get what I want?

Yes. Or how do I use the situation to look a certain way? Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Fascinating book I recently read called Great Leaders Live Like Drug Addicts. Okay. Matthew Brody Waite is his name. He is not a psychologist. He's a drug addict that went through treatment and started, you know, a software company and, you know, had success. And his insight was that, as an addict, he wore a mask to present to people what they wanted to see, usually in a manipulative way to get what he wanted, but hiding his true self, right? But he also noticed as a leader, as an entrepreneur, he still had this desire to hold up a mask of, I'm in charge, I know what's going on, I've got all the solutions, etc. And his answer to that was radical authenticity, to live and be radically honest with the people in his life about who he is, how he feels, what, what, what he's struggling with, etc. It really resonated with me as an entrepreneur because I felt like I did have to have the answers right. I had to project that confidence of, you know, yeah, this is the way forward and, you know, we've got this figured out. Until I just got beat over the head so many times of like, well, shit, I don't know. I actually don't know. I thought I could fake it. You run into that scenario a lot?

Yeah, absolutely. And man, we could really go down.

Let's go down the rabbit hole. I love rabbit holes.

On mask wearing. Okay. And how— yeah, what is that line of authenticity? Because then sometimes in the interest or the name of authenticity, people use that as a free pass, and really they come across as the jerks and the people who don't want to work with them, and they create issues on teams and development, and they're just like, I'm just being authentic, I'm just being real, I'm cutting out the crap. And so it's like, when, when does that go too far? And now in this new age of AI and social media and those facades. Yeah, how, how do we continue showing up as a business, a brand? Like, even when we talk about like marketing and all these automated systems, and if we're really priding ourselves on being authentic, how does that branding and marketing even work?

I'm gonna have Brody Waite on the show next year. So I'm fascinated about interviewing him. But I heard a sermon. Now, this is— stick with me here. I heard a sermon preached on Jacob. And the way he described Jacob was essentially the same thing about wearing a mask. And it really resonated with me. I could not get the pastor on the show. He wouldn't come on, which is fine. That's not the point. The point is that what he said, what the pastor said, is that Jacob wore a mask to conceal but what we all truly want as humans is to be fully known and fully loved. And that we wear masks because we don't want people to know our true selves. What would you say to that, either in a clinical capacity or a spiritual capacity, either way?

I have more follow-up questions on this whole Jacob wearing a mask, but I'll leave that because The pastor isn't here to speak to that. But yeah, I agree at our innate human level that we have a desire to be known and to be loved, like whether or not we vocalize that or willing to admit that, because oftentimes people are afraid to admit that because that comes with vulnerability and that's really scary, or it's seen as a sign of weakness that I have a need. So if I don't have a need, then that means I'm in control. It means I can handle the situation. I don't have to rely on others. And so, yeah, if we recognize that innate need, then things get really vulnerable and scary, potentially real quick. But yeah, I agree with that. Those are innate human needs.

So how does that show up for entrepreneurs who are supposed to have— so specifically the tension between casting the vision and getting people to believe in the vision, uh, and, and, you know, throwing your hands up and saying, well, you know what, I really don't know, like, and, and how do you coach, uh, entrepreneurs through that tension?

And I think just as you said, you know, casting a vision versus getting a team on board, those are actually two very different skill sets. And so as an entrepreneur, oftentimes, especially starting out, you're a one-man show and you gotta figure it out and be HR and operations and marketing and everything at the same time. And so acknowledging, especially like if you're in scaling mode, of, oh, I actually can't do this all, or these are not my strengths, or this is why I need to hire now or bring someone else on, because those are all very different skill sets that most people don't excel in each of those levels.

Yeah, I had— I, I, I'm of the opinion there's an article that Dan Marcos wrote that I read at least once a year. He is a Scaling Up advisor, Scaling Up, Vern Harnish Paradigm down in San Antonio. And he wrote this article, like, I think the title was something around like, you have to grow yourself to grow your company. And it basically outlines the different stages of the business and what the business needs from you as a leader in order to function. And if you stop growing, your company stops growing. Um, which, you know, the reason why I keep coming back to it is because like that's— that I believe is axiomatic. I, I also— I, I've also found entrepreneurs that have, have just said like, that's fine, I'm not interested in growing. Like, I'm not interested in learning that skill set. I'm, I'm like, you know, I'm good. Do you encounter that?

So I think more so it— I agree with that premise of like, yeah, your business is going to stop where your growth stops. And going with that same adage of you have to lead yourself well first before you can lead others well. And so if you don't want to learn, say, a marketing skill set, okay, great, hire that out. But that if you're saying that about general leadership growth, about your communication style, about how you're communicating a vision, decisions you're making that influence, you know, dozens, if not hundreds of people, your emotional intelligence, all of those, if those are the growth principles you're like, peace out, then yeah, you're gonna get stuck.

I'm not making this the Piyush Patel Show, but I wanna mention one other thing to get your opinion on. His doctoral research work was with entrepreneurs. He got like 125 entrepreneurs to answer this extensive survey, which is kind of surprising because the questions were very intimate and personal, because they had to do with sexual satisfaction and your spouse and all this other stuff. But that was not what his thesis was about. But he came looking at the data with this interesting correlation that the entrepreneurs that had been in entrepreneurship longer had higher levels of emotional connection. And his thinking, his postulate, if you will, was that if I use that word correctly, is that the journey of entrepreneurship actually allows you to heal yourself. The challenges that you encounter, that growth that is required, actually solves that inner problem. You have any thoughts on that?

I think it could go two ways. It either can solve them because you are challenged, and being an entrepreneur reveals all your weaknesses and shortcomings. And so if you are actually willing to grow, it can be very positive in that way. But then I also think for another significant sector on the other side, it just reinforces what's already there, like the underlying unhealthy drive, the chip on the shoulder where they aren't actually growing and developing, like it's their grit, their sheer just, I will get through this, that just hardens them, or those negative characteristics even more. And so I don't— it would be interesting to see the stats on that. I, I'd say just, you know, anecdotally based on experience, we're kind of at a 50/50 split of those who have the growth mindset and those who just get further hardened and continue on their same path.

Yeah, I experienced that. I was working as a fractional CFO for a startup that was rapidly growing, and the owner had no experience in the space. They had come from a different industry. And in working with him as a fractional CFO, he eventually drove me away. Like I said, I quit, lose my number. And I immediately went back to my team and I said, I am so sorry if I ever treated you even remotely like this guy treated me. Yeah, but I— and I don't think I was to that level by any chance, but I could see characteristics of his behavior in my own. And I didn't like what I saw. Yeah. But he probably is one of those that you're talking about that just doubled down. The end of the story was that his business failed and he got a divorce.

So, you know, unfortunately, that's a common ending for many entrepreneurs.

Yeah. Well, one of the things I, I've worked with a business coach for 3 years and kind of speaking to what you're talking about, I realized it was definitely not apparent, and I don't think that I could have understood it without working with someone else, that my problems in my marriage were the same problems that were showing up in the business. But in other words, I was the same person. And my, my characteristics were causing the problems both places. But the way they manifested themselves, the symptoms were so different in my mind, I would never have made that connection. So I'm assuming you've had experience with some of your folks that was similar.

Yeah, and that's why a lot of work I do, it's not just we talk business, it's really very holistic. We're looking at all areas of life. How are you showing up? How are you being your best self? And also too, like, some of the leadership teams I work with, they're like, oh man, I must be failing. Like, you know, they brought in a psych to work with us. Like, there's still that negative connotation with it where I'm always like, wow, the fact that your leaders, your CEO saw something in you to financially invest the time and resources to continue developing you because they want to keep you, actually that's a positive that we're working together. Like, that's not a negative. And just working through some of those stereotypes that like regardless of how much success you've had or what age you are, like we all need business mentors, coaches, colleagues, like whatever title or label we give to them, because we all always need someone to hold up that mirror to reflect back to us, like how others are experiencing our behavior, because we only have one lens through which we see our lived experience. And so we're like, wasn't that communication obvious? Like, how did you just come up with that answer based on what I told you? And they're bringing a whole different lens to it. And then it's like, oh yeah, okay. And so just validating that wherever an entrepreneur is, like, it's not a fault or a weakness to say, I need someone to work as a guide and come alongside me to help me figure these things out.

No, I mean, I, I, I think it's critical, you know.

Absolutely.

Yeah. I, I, I, what's interesting, I'm going to say Pish's name one more time. Um, I, I actually, this, I did not plan this. I'm sorry. It's just the way the conversation went. I went to Pish several years ago and I said, you know, here are the things that I, I want to set up an external board of directors and this is why, and these are the problems I'm trying to solve. And he patiently listened to me and he said, I think you need a business coach. And I'm like, Mm, okay. No, but thanks. And out of def— out of respect for him, it stuck in the back of my head. But in that moment, I'm like, I don't need a coach. Like, to me, what I thought a coach was, was they were going to come in and tell me how to do things differently in my business. And I didn't understand that The coaches that you're talking about for entrepreneurs are not going to tell you how to solve your business problems. That's not what they do. They're not— they're not— they're not— what's the word I'm looking for— experienced coaches where they're going to tell you how to do something. Yeah, they're more like a professional athlete coach where Tiger Woods' swing coach is not telling him how to swing a golf club. Right? Tiger knows how to do that. He's, he's helping Tiger reveal truths within himself that he may not be able to see. What do you guys, what do you think?

Yeah, I think there's, I mean, the term coach is unregulated, it's unofficial, so like anyone can use that.

And so that can mean, and they do. Yeah.

100 different things to 100 different people. And so there are some of those, I think, who might just be the advice givers and they want to be seen as the expert and they come in and tell you everything to do. Whereas if you look at a good coach, even from like a sports analogy, that coach isn't just telling the players everything to do. They are developing, they are giving them, you know, appropriate leadership responsibility, like it's also not just advice giving of here's what I think you should do, because ultimately at the end of the day, you're the one who has to live with the consequences. And so, yeah, sometimes I'll get pushback from clients. I'm like, I just want to know what you think. I'm like, great. Well, tell me what you think first and why.

And so, yeah, that's why I don't give advice anymore. I mean, like, if you ask me professional advice and pay me, I will give you advice. But when, when a fellow entrepreneur comes Even my own adult children, like, they, they're like, I want your advice. I'm like, I will not give you advice. I will give you my experience. Because that paradigm shifts it back to them. Because like, I'm not going to tell you what to do. I don't know what you need to do. You are the one in your situation. You have all of the information. You need to make a decision. And if I tell you what to do, and it doesn't work out, who are you going to blame? Me? Right? Right. It's your decision. Like, I can't make this for you.

Yeah, absolutely. And so it's putting them back on them, offering, holding up the mirror, showing them other avenues, getting them to think bigger picture, or have you considered this? Or, hmm, I wonder what the consequences of that might be, positive or negative, in helping them see that broader picture. And start to make those connections of, oh, okay, actually it is these, you know, same characteristics that show up in the same— in the work and at home. But I wasn't making the tie to this.

Yes. Very— I'd say impossible to do yourself. I really do. So, Lanny, if people want to find out more about HBL Advisory and engage you, how do they do that?

Yeah, they can head to DrLaniJones.com. I've got a freebie if they're like, I need some clarity here. I don't know where my next steps are. I'm trying to bridge the personal and professional. On my homepage, there's a starter kit to get them going. Or I'm also over on LinkedIn. They're welcome to reach out there.

Perfect. Listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast. Share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. And until next time, remember, you are not alone.