The Connection Between Creativity and Divinity | Mackenzie Brim

In my opinion, to have true creativity and something that is truly born of like soul and purpose, you can't be thinking business sense when you're truly creating. Now, I do think that creative people can use that skill set and apply it in other ways. That doesn't mean like, you know, I mean, obviously that's like a different thing to me, but I think, you know, and you get a lot of this like when you watch TV nowadays and like all these TV shows like we were talking about are so formulaic and someone is like, so the TV nowadays, right? It's like, it's a lot of it's very formulaic. A lot of it is very like, I would just say it like lacks a little bit of soul to it. And that's like the whole thing with AI. And we can talk about that in a minute now too. It's like taking that creativity and using it in just a sense of like just replicating, but also like there are creative people involved in those projects. You know what I mean?

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Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative. The only place on the internet where you will learn to turn your passion into profit. I'm your host, Christian Brim. Today with me, I have a very special guest, Mackenzie Brim, aka Mack Brim, my daughter. Hi, Mackenzie.

Hello. Thanks for having me, Joel.

Oh, absolutely. It is absolutely my pleasure. So I know your story, but tell everybody what you do as a creative.

By trade, I'm a figurative oil painter. So, that's what I specialize in is figurative oil painting, which realistic oil painting. But, by nature of just being in this world and having to be a hustler, I do a little bit of everything. So, I teach art classes, I do events, I do murals, I pretty much will do anything for a dollar. So, that's kind of the realm that I'm in. But yeah, so go ahead.

Well, I was also going to add voice acting to that because you are the voice of the podcast intro.

I know, I will do anything. I did that for free. I didn't even do that for a dollar. So that just goes to show I'm down to clown. I even starred when I lived in California, I starred in my friend Evan's short film that probably will never see the light of day. Yeah, so I'll pretty much do anything.

Well, I'll fill in some holes there that I think might be interesting. Okay. You graduated college with a degree in art, correct?

Kind of. I got my degree. I have a bachelor's in journalism, but my minor was in studio art.

But you really didn't intend to do that as a career when you started college.

I had no intentions of doing anything. Uh, my goal was to do as little work as possible.

Yeah, I remember your freshman year. Yes, I remember that.

My goal was to do as little work as possible. Yeah, I didn't really know what I wanted to do, to be honest, when I graduated. And I just ever since then have just kind of been exploring a career path, and I don't know that I've really settled on one.

So I've mentioned this in several instances how, uh, I had no idea that was your intent until you were graduating and said, yeah, I'm gonna move to Dallas and do art full-time. And I was like, what? Was it a surprise to you that you made that decision?

I don't know. I think I was just looking for something else. Like, I think I knew what I wanted to do, but I think I was just looking for anything else that could be fulfilling and financially stable. And so that was kind of like, you know, I couldn't really find anything else that I was interested in. And so then when I graduated, I was working at— my friend had a gallery. It was like a very small little like gallery shop with like local artists. And I was working there, and then it was like pretty boring most of the day, so I started just painting my own stuff. And then like that was when I really first— I did it a little bit in college, but started like posting more of my work on social media and like trying to sell it. And that's kind of where that started, was in that era. And then when I moved to Dallas, that's kind of when it really started picking up, like selling online, uh, and like using social media and all of that kind of stuff and selling my personal paintings, my personal work. And then I was working— I also got a job teaching at a center down there, a school down there, teaching art and doing like community outreach stuff with the arts. And then also working at like a paint and sip. So like, I was just kind of like taking any jobs I could get to supplement that other income.

So you and I have had this conversation a lot and we're going to have it again, uh, for the benefit of our listeners. Talk about the struggle between following your passion and doing creative work that is meaningful and fulfilling to you versus making money?

Yeah. Well, so I think like, it's funny because I say my ideal, but I think if I had this, I don't know that I would necessarily even enjoy it. But like, the ideal, I think, in my field and the kind of work I'm doing in figurative oil painting is like, you get big gallery representation, they're selling your work for lots of money, you have solo shows, you know, you go to exhibitions, they sell your work, yada yada. You're— so your day-to-day is just producing that work and then someone else is selling it for you. And I say that's the ideal because like, at the end of the day, the work comes first for me. When I say the work, I mean like my oil paintings, you know what I mean? What I'm doing there, what I'm exploring in that realm. Comes first for me, like, creatively. Um, and that doesn't mean I don't enjoy other things I do. And that's why I say I don't know if I had that exact experience of, like, being represented by a big gallery and doing things that way, like, if I would even necessarily enjoy that. I don't know, who knows? Because I do enjoy, like, the social aspect of teaching and being around other people, um, and, like, helping inspire others. And I like the variety of, like, consulting on other creative projects and, like, that as well. So I think that that ideal is like, there's always room for that. There's always room for me to be making those paintings and selling those paintings. But like I said, that can even get kind of monotonous, especially in like how isolating it is, because it is a very like solo experience to be like making, producing paintings in a studio by yourself and then someone selling them, you know. It's a very isolating experience. So I think like The supplement to that of also teaching and doing these other projects like murals or community projects or those kinds of things that can also be very lucrative. I don't even know really what question I'm answering anymore. I'm just talking.

I love it. And I do know that it's isolating because you won't let anybody in your studio.

Yeah. Well, I don't like people's energy. I don't trust it.

I've been told that many times.

Yeah.

I've been told that many times.

Yeah.

I had a guest on that was talking about Andy Warhol and how much of a, uh, commercialist he was, you know, as an artist. Like, he, he was really big into prints and, and those types of things. Do you look at someone like, uh, Andy Warhol and say, compare it to Georgia O'Keeffe, who I know that you love? Do you see any, I guess, problem with that arrangement, with, with what he did, uh, or Georgia O'Keeffe did, as far as staying true to the passion while still making money?

Well, I think it just depends on what your passion and your intention is. I think someone like Georgia O'Keeffe, who like is making work that is deeply personal and resonant and intimate in a lot of ways, is completely different than someone like Andy Warhol, which I I don't think either one of those could do the other's job, right? I don't think Andy Warhol could make intimate, vulnerable paintings, and I don't think Georgia O'Keeffe could make mass-produced commercial work. And it's mass-produced now. I mean, you see Georgia O'Keeffe all the— everywhere, you know. See, those paintings are like everywhere. But in her lifetime, it was completely different. So I say that to say, like, those two people are on very different trajectories as far as their work goes. There's a lot of commercial artists, and there's a lot of commercial artists who are happy making and have a specific skill set to make, like, you know, the cows you see at Hobby Lobby for sale, you know what I mean? And like, that is a specific skill set, and that is like, you know, some people are very passionate about that and really enjoy that. There are people who are really passionate about, you know, making work that's— that is saleable and that You know, and not that all— I mean, I think obviously any work is sellable. I just think it depends on your market. But that's what I'm saying. It's those two things are because those people are playing to their strengths. Do you know what I mean? And like carving out something that works for them. But I don't think that necessarily works for everybody.

Well, you, you made a comment very early on before you really got into it that, as I recall, you said, I don't really care about all of that business stuff. I just want to make what I want to make. And it sounds like what you're saying is that someone like Georgia O'Keeffe did what she wanted to do, what was personal to her, and, and the commercial intent was secondary. Like, if somebody bought it, great. So do you think that those two things, I guess, being true to yourself and being passionate, uh, doing what you're passionate about and making money off of it are incompatible?

Well, not at all. I mean, I think obviously I wouldn't be doing this if they were incompatible because I mean, I think that, okay. And I don't know what, like you, what kind of guests you have on as far as like what kind of creative spaces they're in, because to me there's different—

you're the first, uh, painter.

Well, yeah, okay, but this is what I'm getting at. I think there's a little bit of a difference in creative— making work that's like deeply personal and resident versus— resident, excuse me— versus being an artist like a graphic designer. Do you know what I mean? And not to say that graphic designers can't also do that. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, for me, the skill set of like going and painting a mural is a little different than like sitting and painting an oil painting. It's, it's just like a different experience. So I think like, you know, when you're offering something to the world that is like your personal creation, that is intimate and important to you, you can't really be thinking while you're creating it about how you're going to sell it.

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Fair enough.

Okay, so like, if I'm sitting there painting oil painting, I can't in my head think to myself like, are people gonna like this? Are people gonna buy it? Because, you know, that's not— that's a whole different part of the brain, you know what I mean? So it's like you have to, when you're to have like true pure creation, you have to be in a little bit of a bubble without having to like have input from those other things.

That makes sense. I think one of the things I, I don't think this, I, one of the things that I did talk about in my book, which I'm pretty sure you haven't read yet, have you?

I've read parts of it.

Okay.

Um, skimmed.

Yeah, skimmed. I know how you read. Um, I, I do have it available on audio if you would like an audio copy, I'd be happy to give you one. Okay, great. Okay, that it's not so much about losing your creativity to make a profit as it is, uh, repurposing it. So I think that you can be creative, uh, with zero commercial intent, right? But that's what I call a hobby. You're just creating something because you want to create it, whatever it is. And that could be a podcast, that could be, uh, It could be a work of art. It could be a live performance, whatever it is. Like, it could be a— you could be a musician and play something or sing something. Anyway, you do something that is just creative from your passion, from your soul, and doesn't have any business intent to it. So what I'm challenging creatives to do is to say, well, it's not selling out to be commercial. Right? It's just reframing your creativity to a commercial purpose as opposed to just doing it for you. What do you think of that? Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that Full Commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now.

Okay, I, I have like a two-part response to that. I think you can do both. I think, in my opinion, to have true creativity and something that is truly born of like soul and purpose, you can't be thinking business sense when you're truly creating. Now, I do think that creative people can use that skill set and apply it in other ways. That doesn't mean like, you know, I mean, obviously that's like a different thing to me, but I think, you know, and you get a lot of this like when you watch TV nowadays and like all these TV shows like we were talking about are so formulaic and someone is like, so the TV nowadays, right? It's like, it's a lot of it is very formulaic. A lot of it is very like, I would just say it like lacks a little bit of soul to it. And that's like the whole thing with AI. And we can talk about that in a minute now too. It's like taking that creativity and using it in just a sense of like, just replicating. But also, like, there are creative people involved in those projects, you know what I mean? But that creativity doesn't have a soul to it, do you know what I'm saying? And so I think when you look at something that's made, you know, that is like genuinely like good and, you know, kind of lightning striking, you know, like, what's your favorite movie?

The Godfather.

Okay, right. So like, that is like an act of creativity, you know what I'm saying? And so it's like when you're writing a script for that, you can't be thinking, how am I going to sell this? That may come later in the process, do you know what I'm saying? And that may come later in the process of like refining things and working with people and, you know, making deals, obviously. But when you're actually sitting down to write it, that other stuff is just going to block the expression coming through. Sure.

And I'm, I'm totally fine with that. Yeah, that tracks. And that, I think, works with what I'm saying. I think it's this false paradigm that a lot of creatives have that it's, it's either or, like, I can either be creative or I can make money. And, and I don't, I don't think that's a true paradigm. I think it's maybe more what you're saying. The, the par— the real paradigm is that how much of your creativity are you going to use for commercial intent, right?

Exactly. But I think what you said, what you're saying about hobby, I disagree with because I think you can create— I think the only way to me to have like true art in whatever form you're creating it is to create it without thinking about the business intent. Then afterwards, after you've created, then you can turn your business marketing part of your brain on and then figure out how to sell it. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I, to use a, a modern example, I think that's exactly what happened with, say, Star Wars. And yeah, then Disney buys it and it became, became formulaic and it did not stay true to the original artist's intent. Exactly.

Then those creative are the creatives on the project are simply thinking from a numbers business standpoint, using their creative skills in a business intent, in a commercial intent. Do you see what I'm saying? While they're creating.

Yeah. Or not creating, or just—

yeah, we're plugging it in. And that's where you get into like, you know, when people say like AI can replace creative jobs. Yeah, that AI can replace those creative jobs. Like AI could create 100 Andy Warhol paintings. Do you know what I mean? Like, AI could take those things and repeat them because they are becoming formulaic. But if you're creating from a sense of like true inspiration and creativity, that's like, that's, I would argue, a hard skill, you know? And like, no one can, no one can really replicate that except for you.

Well, I can't personally, but people like you can.

But you can.

Well, you know, I remember back in grade school when I was in this special class. I'll, I'll let you decide what kind of special. And there were these posters up on the board, or up on the wall, and they were different definitions of creativity. And they were actually like defined, uh, like by some psychologists that, you know, these are discrete, distinct ways people are creative. Right. And the way I am creative, uh, and so, so I guess what I'm saying is, is that just to say you're creative is, is not, uh, real explanatory because that, that's nuanced, right? The way I'm creative is I can see something and think about alternative ways to do it or use it, right? So I can see something in one industry and go, hmm, I wonder if they tried that in a completely different industry, if it would work. That's the way my brain works. Your creativity and others that I've met where I call it inspirational. I don't, I don't know if that's the, the correct psychological term, but like you can come up with something out of whole cloth, like you don't need necessarily some external stimulus to come up with an idea. And that to me is fascinating because I don't have that skill.

Well, I would once again have to disagree with you because here's the thing.

You disagree with me? Shocking.

Okay. I think what they say about creative people is that there's like something in their, you know, neuro— I'm gonna say, I'm not a scientist, okay? Whatever. That takes existing things and creates new connections between existing things. That's what creative people do. And I would argue that's what all creative people do. I think, like, that's— I didn't invent painting, do you know what I mean? Like, I'm taking some— a practice that's been done for hundreds of years and just, like, you know, attaching a couple new neurons to something that I am familiar with, do you know what I'm saying? So it's like, it's not— and that's exactly what you're doing. You're taking things that exist and you're creating something new from it. Like, that's all— like, you know how many— you played the piano, it's like, how many notes are there? There's only so many notes. You're just making new arrangements of those notes that exist.

I agree with that, but there, there's something about that inception of the, the inspiration that I feel like I'm lacking, like that eureka kind of what I call true creation. Like you, you, you create something that wasn't there before, not just iterating on something that's already been done. That's, that's what I feel like I do. I think of Cody Blake as an example of someone who is uber creative, and I've sat with him in these strategy sessions where he's come up with things, and I'm just looking at him like, where the hell did that come from? Like, how do you, how do you come up with that? That doesn't mean it's a good idea, but, but it's like, I don't even know how that, that brain works. Like, I don't get it.

Well, that's interesting too, because like, you know, The Artist's Way and Julia Cameron, great book. I don't know if you've read it, but it— she talks about how like creation, whatever you believe in, it's like divine, you know what I mean? It's, it's coming from something outside of us, some greater force outside of us that she calls God. You can call whatever you want to call it, you know what I mean? But it's like something outside of us, some divinity, and that is what creation is sparked in. And I think in that sense, anyone can connect to that. You know, I don't think it's specific. I think some people have more of a tendency, for whatever reason, to be more open to it. But I think like, with practice, I think anyone can connect to that.

Well, that's your thought. My thought is that you're just more holy than everybody. You're more connected to the divine. And right? No?

Okay. Totally.

No, not at all. Where do you see yourself in 5 years?

Uh, hopefully alive.

Well, that's a pretty low bar, but set your expectations low. You will never be disappointed.

That's right.

I've taught you well. I've taught you well.

The goal is always to just have space to create. And I think in different times in my life that's meant different things, but for me, that's like, that's just always what it is, is to have that space and opportunity to be able to keep creating. And if I can do that, then I'm, then I'm doing well.

I love it. How do we find Mackenzie Brim, AKA Mack Brim?

Um, well, you have my social medias. My handle is Madam Mack, M-A-D-A-M-E-M-A-C-K. And then, and that's TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, everything. And then, um, my website is macroom.com.

I love it. Well, thank you, Mackenzie.

Thanks for having me, Zool.

Yes, it was very intriguing. Thank you. Very stimulating conversation.

I think you hoped it would be.

All right, folks, listeners, if you have any show thoughts, anybody that you'd like for me to interview, please drop those in the comments or shoot us an email. If you like what you listen to, subscribe or like the podcast on your platform. And, uh, until later, until next time, ta-ta for now.

And that's a wrap for today's episode of The Profitable Creative. Until next time, you money lovers. And don't forget, Profit First for Creatives is live via Amazon.

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