The Joyful Rebellion: James Walters

This is the Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts. Set your perceived ideas and biases aside and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world.

Welcome to another episode of The Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today is James Walters. James, welcome.

Thank you, Christian. It's great to be here.

Well, I'm glad you made it up this morning. So tell us who James Walters is and what's his story? How did he get here?

Oh, yeah. So Like so many people in the world, I've kind of described, and other people describe me with different titles, and those titles only apply to how they work into my life or how I work into their life. And so I guess, well, how—

okay, what title would you give yourself?

Oh, I'd say the dominant title is, uh, creative person.

Okay, I like that.

That's the one that fits the most, and, and it kind of rides across all of the different titles. Yes. But, uh, the father comes into play, but before that, uh, photographer. That's what— that's how I started my career, and that's how I identified. Yes. Myself for a very long time. A creative person, but also a photographer, and that— we'll talk about it later, but that caused some problems, some issues as an entrepreneur. And so I was photographer, then father, then an entrepreneur, then, uh, then— and, and at that time, a husband and a business partner.

Mhm.

And then those things fell away, and again, the identity situation. So I've learned that title— giving yourself titles or, or labels can be a little slippery sometimes, because sometimes you want to live into those and it doesn't quite happen. But now I guess I could give myself the title podcast host, because about 2 and a— it was 2 years ago this month I started a passion project of my own, uh, very much, um, you describe your podcast as that, and mine's called The Joyful Rebellion. It's about that time in people's life when they've done all the things that their family, society, and even they told themselves would give them the success that would make them happy, and they get to that point where they've worked hard and they've checked all the boxes and they look around and they say, you know, I've got the success, I don't have the joy, I don't have the happiness. And what I've found in talking to dozens and almost hundreds of people at this point is that sometimes the rebellion part is to rebel against what you've always known, what you've always done. Yes. And sometimes that's family programming. Sometimes that's your own family dynamic. It's your old habits. It's all of those things. And we just went really deep. But that's— there has been a lot of things along the way that's gotten me where I am right now and wanting to give back to other people so that they can experience more joy in their life without having to go through the bumps.

Yeah, you mentioned labels. I think it's interesting the way our brain works. I think we like to use labels. I think our brain naturally uses labels, because it helps us navigate. It's easier to categorize things in our brain. That just, I think in a way, it filters information that otherwise would overwhelm us. Right? Like, Well, that's true. So there's a purpose behind it, but it definitely is a limitation. I think back now that I'm almost 55, and I still do this to a certain extent, but like, when you see people, you classify them by age in your head. And I'm thinking to myself, I don't— like, my younger self would look at myself as, oh, that's an old man. But then I'm like, well, that doesn't really fit. That doesn't feel right to me because I don't, you know, and— but then I'll look at someone that's older than I am. So, well, that's an older person, you know. But it's just— it's fascinating that we put these labels on things and put labels on ourselves. People put labels on us. One of the things, you know, I'm a CPA by vocation. And for a decade or more, people ask me what I do. And my answer is as little as possible, because I don't want to tell them that, you know, that's the standard answer is like your vocation, right? Right. But then they've got all these preconceived ideas about what a CPA is or what they should do or how they should act. And I'm like, I don't want that baggage. So I just don't, which is weird. I don't know.

Sorry. No, I get it. I get it.

Let me ask you, so the joyful rebellion, that kind of makes me think that there was at some point in your life you didn't have joy.

Oh, yes.

Well, let's dive into that. What were the circumstances around the— what was the origin story of the Joyful Rebellion? Like, what was your experience that caused you to want to create that podcast?

Yeah, I, like a lot of people who push hard and are really into what they do, and that's what we identify with if we're entrepreneurs, we kind of love building something. And I spent my 20s building my career, my creative career, my photography career. And I was in that world, I was so immersed in it. And I, to the point where I was working not to avoid things, but I was working because I was getting so much growth from it and I was excited about it. But everything has a trade-off. Mm-hmm. Right. So I was putting so much time and effort into that part of my life that family relationships were falling away. I wasn't going to people's weddings because I was booked for photo shoots. And it's not like I was, like they told me, "Hey, we're getting married." And then I booked a photo shoot and said, "Hey, this is more important." It's like I had a photo shoot already booked before they even got engaged. And it was one of those things where I'm like, "Hey, I got this previous commitment." So I miss weddings, I miss funerals, I miss a lot of stuff. And then I had started a family of my own and was still pushing, still, you know, doing the grind as I called it. And this was around, this was right around 2008 when things were starting to look a little dicey in the world, the economy-wise. And that was also the year that I had a brother, so I'm the oldest of 5 siblings.

And so am I. Weird. Okay.

It's a rare privilege, question mark, question mark. But the first of my siblings died of a drug overdose that year in January. And my wife at the time was pregnant with our second child. It wasn't— so that was in January. It wasn't long after that. It was actually in the middle of March that one of my favorite people, my paternal grandmother, she passed. And it was— this is going to start sounding like a country song in a minute, but it doesn't get better. Spoiler alert. So the economy's going down. My wife and I own our own business. We've got a baby on the way. We've already got a 5-year-old at home, and I'm freaking out a little bit. I'm like, okay, all this. And then there's all this drama with the, you know, a lot of heaviness with the deaths that have happened so far. So then July comes around, and we have a healthy baby girl. That's great. And while we're in the hospital, my wife's grandfather dies, and we get that call. As soon as we get home, about 2 days later, I realized that our dog of 12 years, totally not recoverable at that point. So I take the trip to the vet to get the dog put to sleep. It was just a series of these for about 3 or 4 years. The next year, my other grandmother died. Not wildly like a shock because they weren't young people who had a heart attack, but they were a little young for their time, given what could have been. It wasn't long after that, I was still grinding hard, but this time, at this point, I'm grinding at work to get away from all the feelings of all this anxiety. I'm not doing it because I love it anymore. Right. Big difference. So now all this stress, all these things, I, instead of this joyful work towards something I felt was giving me growth, it was being robotic. And just getting through whatever the next disaster was going to be and trying to keep things afloat. Right. So fast forward to about 2011, I was scheduled for another photo shoot. It was a magazine shoot. We were gonna start at 7 o'clock that, on the morning, and the morning or the night before, I got the call that my mother had taken her life. And she was states away, so it's not like I could go see. And that had happened. And I walked into the photo shoot the next morning, did the photo shoot. No one knew a thing except my wife, who was there with me kind of playing interference. And I got through that. And that's when I realized, dude, something's gotta give. Like, you— You can't just keep soldiering through all this crazy stuff and expect the future to be anything better than what the past has been. So that was the beginning of my wake-up call. It certainly wasn't my wake-up call, but it was the beginning of awareness. And I've discovered with my podcast, and it sounds like you talk about it a lot with yours, Awareness is everything. Awareness is where everything starts. Yes. And it's impossible to do anything positive or otherwise until you've got that awareness. So that was part of mine.

Well, would you mind continuing? Like, I'd like to hear the rest of the story.

Okay. Okay. So there, of course, When people die in your family, one of two things I've experienced can happen. They have great, everyone gathers around and there are great memories shared, or everyone gathers around to fight over what is left that that person left the world.

Right. Right.

The second one's what happened in my family. And being the oldest of now 4 kids, uh, the other 3 were, were ready to, to see what was coming.

Now, was your, was your father already out of the picture? Had he died, or—

he was actually my— so my mom got married super young, uh, like 18, and then had me a year later, and then was separated a year later. I did have— she did get remarried for 4 years later, but my stepfather was kind of out of that part of the family picture at that point.

Okay.

So they had been divorced for a long time. So yeah, wasn't there for that. But, and to make matters even worse, my grandmother who died in '09, she did one of those crazy, like soap opera things where She was in the hospital, she was in intensive care. They said, okay, we're gonna give you some rehabilitation. She was like, I don't want it, I'm not leaving here. So it was kind of her choice to stay there. But at the same time, she asked me to call her attorney, her estate attorney, who came in, I left, and she changed everything. She changed all this stuff. Um, all of a sudden I found instead of my mom, it was me who was co-executor with, with, uh, her sibling. Uh, all of my other siblings were written out of her will. And I come back and I'm like, you know, okay, when we getting out of here, Grandma? And she's like, nope. And she didn't tell me what she did until after she was gone and I found out.

And I was like, that's not generally a good plan, but that's, uh, I was like, hey, cool.

And now everybody's looking at me like, oh, what, what's going on? What'd you do? What'd you tell her to do? I was like, I left. I, I literally, the day that she— this is, this is kind of a, a really bad pattern, but The day that she died in the hospital, I was at a photo shoot a few hours away, and I get a text from my sister. So, it was that pattern, but also all of the drama that was going on. And I was just kind of getting through the drama, getting through all the things, again, becoming more of that robotic person. That didn't help my marital relationship. So, that started to crumble. But I didn't see it until it was a little too far gone. And so now we're fast forwarding up to like 2013, 2014, and things are starting to feel normal again until the whiplash of, oh, marriage is over. Didn't realize it, but hey, that's what had happened. And that was partly on me because I just, again, trade-offs. If you put all of your energy and attention into one thing, you got to take it away from a lot of other stuff. And so there are consequences for that, and there's collateral damage. And so started that— that started me down the road of talking to someone else besides my own internal voice. Uh, went to a therapist, started talking about a lot of the things that were going on. And I'll never forget, I was 40 at that point, and And she looked at me one day and she's like, have you ever considered you might have ADD? And I was like, no, because that's fake. What are you talking about? It's like something my brothers had so they could get out of getting in trouble for being rambunctious.

Right.

She's like, no, actually, you might want to check into it. You might want to do a little research for yourself because everything you just described to me are the symptoms of it. I was like, well, that's interesting. And she said, well, what kind of calendar system do you have? And I was like, what the heck is that? Like, I just remember everything. I remember where I need to be. I remember what I need to do, and I just do it. You might want to check into a calendar. I was like, I'm here now. I didn't miss our appointment. I'm never late. And so she started me down the path of a little more self-discovery. And that was quite a while ago. But fast forward, fast forward to, I don't know, I guess maybe 5, 6 years ago, everything's cruising along and sticking with the therapy, sticking with talking to people about what's going on in my situation. I start thinking, wow, I am at the point in my career where I'm a little bored. And I feel stale and I need to do something else just to keep me interested. Right. And so then there became kind of that divide in my life where there's the work I do to make sure the bills get paid.

Yes.

And then there's the work I do because I'm really passionate about it, but no one's handing out dollar bills for it. Right. Kind of like the podcast. So I started getting into writing books. I came out— it took me 7 years to write this book, but I just finished it in— well, it came out in November, but it's a coffee table book and it is the only book I've ever written that's got pictures in it. But all the pictures, like in my working life, I take pictures of people. That's what I do. This, this book has no people pictures in it and there's no— well, I mean, if someone thinks it's interesting, it's got some commercial value, maybe it's kind of cool looking, but at the same time, I did it for me. Right. And I did it to really reflect on my life a little bit, but also flex my creative muscle as much as I could because I've never— I had never done a project like this before. So that takes us up to now where Now I'm really into having people be the author of their own story. And what I mean by that is I realized I spent my, my 20s, most of my 30s, not really watching movies because they were a distraction to work. Right. And I was more interested in doing what I was creating. But then when I got in my 40s and I was like, man, I need to slow down, I started watching movies. And then I realized, you know, every single movie that you watch begins with a script.

Yes.

And then they plan it out, and then they plan the visuals, and then, you know, it comes to fruition in the editing, and then you watch it and you enjoy it. And so I thought, what if I just start writing the script for my movie, the movie of my life? What if I, instead of just going along with every day and, hey, I'm waking up, let's see what the day holds, I plan it out a little more carefully, but not just carefully, like whimsically. Like I can build in as much creativity as I want. I can do stupid stuff, but let's be intentional about it. And let's mean to do stupid stuff. And then just make sure we got some money banked for whatever medical bill that's gonna be. Call it good. Right. So that's what got me really passionate about other— and I've heard so many other people have the same lament in my life, like, oh, I wish this, or, oh, I would love to— whatever thing it was I was doing at the time that maybe they thought was cool. Oh, I would love to have a podcast. I just don't know anything about it. And I was like, I didn't either until I sat down with my— I iPad and a whole lot of YouTube, and we worked it out. So stuff like that. And now I'm just loving it because I'm able to throw myself into my work, but I'm a lot happier with my work because it's the work I want to be doing.

You talked about intent, and I think that's— Uber important. I, I think as entrepreneurs, you know, we're, we're mentally wired differently. I, I, I, I think, well, what actually was the impetus for this podcast beyond the origin story, I had a colleague that exited from his, uh, business in his 40s for like, 9 figures. And he literally became depressed because he didn't know what to do with his life. And he decided to go back to get his doctorate in psychology. And he told me there were, like, hundreds of studies around entrepreneurs in the psychology field. And I'm like, that's interesting because I've, as an entrepreneur, I've never heard of them. Like, you know, but, you know, there's, there's a lot around the entrepreneur mind that, that is unknown and unstudied. But I think there's a distinct there's this distinct collective of characteristics that make up an entrepreneur that sees things as they could be, sees the potential. And, you know, when you talk about intent, I think a lot of entrepreneurs start out with an intent. They see a problem they're trying to solve or they see an opportunity, you know, this creation. But then that creation, kind of like Frankenstein, comes and becomes the monster and takes over, and the intent goes away. So, for me, that happened. I always— I won't go through my story because I've shared it a lot on the show. But essentially, I knew I wanted to help people I wanted to help small business owners with their finances. But along the way, I lost that fire, much like you, to the point my brother was my partner. And this is probably 10 years ago. That's another thing with age. Everything's 10 years ago, even though everything—

yeah, the '90s was 10 years ago. 10 years ago.

Yeah. So although I really think this was about 10 years ago anyway, I told my brother, I said, you're in charge. I'm leaving. I can't stand this anymore. And I went and started a software company. And for 2 years, I'm in the wilderness. And when I came back, I had to do the work on myself. It was forced on me. I did not want to do it. But the company had gotten to the point where it needed me to come back in after 2 years. And so my only statement was, I don't know what we're going to do, but we're not going to do it the way we used to do it. Um, and, and that forced me to do a lot of self-work to realize why the, the business was just a reflection of me. And, and the problems in the business were the problems with me. Not that there weren't other things that affected the business or people that affected the business, you know, my brother for instance. I mean, it's But fundamentally, if something was going to be different, it had to start with me. And I realized that for 15 years, I'd been on autopilot. I had been about growing the business. And why? I don't know, because that's just what you're supposed to do, right? All of it went back to I'd lost the passion and the intent. And I thought it was gone. I thought there was no way that I could come back into this business and enjoy it. But over the course of the change of myself and my growth, my passion came back. And all of that to say, I really resonate with what you're saying with intent. Because if you're not intentional, our brain is very, very good at running on its programming. And most of it is subconscious, you know, beliefs, habits, feelings that never rise to the level of consciousness. And it's very easy to just run on that track and not be intentional. It takes effort to say, this is what I'm pursuing, just like you did when you started, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I don't know.

And it's easy to get in that, a lot of people call it the rut. Yes. Your well-worn path that it's worked in the past. But if you're looking to, and that's the thing in entrepreneurship, we as entrepreneurs, we tend to identify a little more with our work than somebody who works for a company and they, they have a title, but they maybe don't take that home with them quite as much. No, no. As an entrepreneur would.

No, we, we call that the difference. And this is an archaic analogy, but, you know, it's the difference between signing the front of the check and signing the back of the check. Is the entrepreneur versus the employee, and it's a completely different thing.

Totally different mentality. But what I found in my journey is that even as an entrepreneur, when you are in the business, you are the business. In some cases, your life, just the natural progression of our lives. We have seasons of our life. We have those seasons where we are full of that energy and we're full of that creativity. And then we have seasons where we are responsible for other little humans. Yes. Sometimes. And we've gotta figure out how that fits into the mix. And then we've got the season when those little humans aren't so little anymore, and then they go away and then we're like, okay, now what do I wanna do? I feel like I have some free time. I feel like I have a whole lot more money now because I don't have people asking for it constantly. And not, not the kids anyway. And then you got to figure out like, what now? And so I'm kind of on the beginning of that journey in my life. And like you mentioned about growth and growing a company, because that's what we've been told, and that's what, you know, the news glamorizes, is growing the company and everything getting bigger and scaling. And everyone's talking about scaling on social media. And there comes a point you're like, No, I'm good. I want to keep things like they are and I want to be able to go do some other cool creative projects that aren't side hustles. They're growth-oriented and a little bit for me, but also maybe just for the world too.

Yes. Yes. I want to pivot a second and go back to joy. Mm. What brings you joy?

What brings me joy is seeing the light bulb go off over someone's head when we're having a discussion. This happened to me. This happened to me with one of my fairly close friends. She is— she's been married for about 5 years now, and I knew her I knew her like 4 years before she got married, I guess. And she had been through a pretty nasty divorce situation and everything before that. So I kind of knew her when that was going on. So I heard a lot of stories and the backstory and the relationship dynamics. But then, you know, she meets a guy, gets married, they're having a great relationship, but she was recounting a story of something that happened that he just didn't understand, like why she was behaving a certain way. She wanted to go to the store, but instead of saying it, they were getting ready to turn left, the store was on the right. And she was like, "Do we need anything at the store?" And he's like, "I don't think so. I don't need anything at the store. Do you need to go to the store?" And she's like, "Well, I just don't know if we have everything for tomorrow's dinner." or whatever. What she really wanted to do was go to the store and get some wine for that night, but she didn't wanna come out right out and express her need. And he called her out on it and said, "Hey, look, if you wanna go to the store, just let me know. We can go to the store." They had already turned left. They were away from the store and he kind of sensed her not being super happy about it. So that's why he wanted to bring it up. Very healthy thing to do.

Right?

Right. And she was like, yeah, I just couldn't give him an answer. I didn't know what the answer was. And I was like, do you want to know what the answer is? Because I know you well enough, but you haven't come to this awareness yet. I said, you spent many, many years with a person, with people, and even part of your parental unit, as I've heard it described, you had to make sure it was their idea to get your needs met. Otherwise, your needs wouldn't get met. And she's like, oh, oh. And so that light bulb moment brings me joy. And as I've discovered, because I've always been the lone wolf kind of archetype doing my own thing, I've never really delegated much. I'm working on that as much as I can. But also some of the collateral damage with that was not really being connected with people on deeper level than just acquaintances or work relationships. And so when I was able to give her that insight to herself because I had been intentional about creating a friend connection over a period of time, it was like, okay, that's cool. That, that was really nice to be able to have someone else see that payoff. As well as myself. So did you—

that brings me joy. Did you have emotional intimacy with your wife?

I wonder about that. And I don't know that I did, because here's the thing. We met when we were 12 years old out on the playground. We didn't like each other then because that was gross. Right? Yeah. So a few years later, junior high, high school, we dated. And we dated off and on, and then we broke up when we went to college because it was a whole new world and all that good stuff. Well, a couple years into college, we decided, "Okay, we just, we keep doing this. Let's just do it for real." And so, we got married when we were 20. And we were like a force. We were a great team. And we got married so young, we didn't really have a whole lot of data points. And this is what I keep going back to. I didn't have a whole lot of data points with all of the, the dating dynamics and all that good stuff. So, as I look back, I realize— and then we were 10 years into our marriage before we went into business together. And we were really good business partners, which leads me to wonder if we were really good intimate, you know, emotionally intimate partners, because we were great at dividing and conquering the work that had to get done. But maybe not so much taking care of each other's emotional needs. And so just in reflection, I'm looking back and asking those questions, and I, I kind of don't see a whole lot of that over the course of that relationship.

Well, yeah, I mean, at that age, and, and then with, with children, you know, it can— I mean, I got married at, uh, Make sure I get this correct. 23.

Don't mess this up.

I got married at 23, and we had our first child at 24. And so, you know, my oldest is going to turn 31 in a few weeks. And like, she's not married. None of my kids are married. And like, at 30, I had 3 kids. My oldest is 30. And, you know, at that age, you just don't— you don't know what you don't know. And then you've got all these responsibilities, business, kids, you know, it's easy to not have those emotional connections. I know, like with my wife. Uh, it wasn't until we had no kids at home, uh, pandemic, family sickness— my, my wife had cancer, her sister died, her mother died. I mean, it all happened concentrated, and, and we, we didn't have a choice but to deal with the lack of intimacy in our relationship. And, you know, I'm sitting there thinking to myself, how the hell did we get to this point? But it's relatively easy if you're not intentional about it, you know, because you're busy. You're busy. And it's not that that busy is bad. I mean, you know, raising kids was a hell of a lot of fun. But, you know, it You know, um, I want to pivot back to something else. Uh, one of the studies that my colleague, uh, gave me was one that, um, I've talked about on this show, but I want your input on it. Um, they took, uh, I think 25 male entrepreneurs and they did MRI scans on their brains and they showed them pictures of their children. Um, and then, you know, they were showing them pictures of a variety of things, but then they showed them pictures of, uh, of their business. And the same part of the brain that lit up for the business was the same part of their brain that lit up for their children. Yeah. And, um, you know, it gives a little more depth to that statement of, well, it's my baby. And I also want to point out there were no females in this study because I don't think their brains are wired the same. But for men entrepreneurs, and I think you might have some interesting insight into this, that the business is an extension of ourselves emotionally and psychologically. Just like our kids are. Mm-hmm. What do you say to that?

I, I would have to agree very much. And I also think it comes back to just that sense of creation. Yes. And creativity and our ability to take something that wasn't there previously. And because of our effort, because of our nurturing, and because of our problem solving. A lot of entrepreneurs get so much satisfaction out of problem solving, and they just love that part. And sometimes we call problem solving creativity, and it's an endless opportunity for that every single day, just like raising your children, because it's like, oh yeah, I could— you take responsibility for their successes, and when they have failures, you, you like, you want to help it along, just like in your own business. And it's like what you really came to realize when you went back into your business with your brother, you were like, if, if I'm going to do this, it's going to be different. It's going to be who— it's going to reflect who you were then. So it's almost like you're creating a whole new kid, right?

It is. And what's strange about that, you know, I look back, so I came back into the business like 8 years ago and, you know, my brother's gone. He left. I bought him out. Our third partner is gone. I bought him out. There are maybe 1 or 2 employees that are here that were here then. But everything about the business has changed. And it was— I've said that it was hard for me, and it's hard with perspective because so much time has passed. But to me, that transition was harder than starting the business. And I can understand where people get to that point. And they're comfortable, financially, emotionally, whatever, that they don't want to take that next step because it's hard. And yeah, but I think, you know, going back to our show's inspiration, Chris, he had financial success. Right. But he didn't have any satisfaction in it. And his answer to that was, well, I'll just get somebody to run the business, which isn't a bad answer. It really isn't. But he, in a lot of ways, rushed the decision. He should have taken time to find the right person. But he was— the business in the iteration it was, he was done with it. Like, you know, we get excited about the problem solving, the startup, you know, like the initial thing. And then it becomes this thing with a bunch of problems that we don't, you know, really aren't equipped to deal with, you know, like, you know, managing people and, you know, it. And so we're like, well, we don't want to do this and we just lose interest in it.

Yeah, it's like, uh, I always relate it to untangling Christmas lights. Yeah, because if you're—

who the hell wants to buy new ones?

Yeah, if you're trying to go quick and get those things down and then you got this cluster of these things, you're like, oh, where do I even begin? Right? And that's what it can feel like. I've, I've got a business that's 20 years on now and I am in the process of trying to not pivot necessarily, but just transition it into what it's going to be in my later years. So, it fits for my life and what I want out of life. So, well, and that's definitely relate.

Yeah, I mean, that's hard because entrepreneurs in general aren't patient people.

And yeah.

You know, untangling the Christmas lights is not the solution we would go to, right? I mean, and yeah, having the discipline to sit down and the patience to sit down and do that is definitely a challenge, which is why a lot of them, well, I'm just going to go start something else. I mean, you know, I'm going to go do something else. And maybe the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Maybe untangling those lights isn't worth Is it worth it? I can't answer that, but understanding your proclivity to say, fuck it and go do something else. I mean, that's our bent. Yeah.

And I've got some friends who are really good at that. I mean, if they even catch a whiff that they're not happy with whatever's going on in the business or how the business plays out in the marketplace, they're moving on and they're in that constant creation. It's almost like a numbers game for them. But then there are others who really take it very personally. It is their baby. It is like their child. And those are the ones I relate with a little bit more because I always love making something personal and putting myself into the work. And that's also something I had to really learn because when I was in business with with my wife at the time, and we were like the husband and wife team. I was a photographer. That's how I would have labeled myself. Well, next thing you know, I'm not part of that team anymore, so there's a little identity shift that has to happen. Then I get into a type of photography where I'm not actually taking the pictures myself a whole lot. I'm managing a lot of other creative people. And so I had to really work through a little identity shift there at that point. Now I'm training people more than I'm doing. And while that's fun, I love to develop other people's skill sets, it felt a little creatively empty because I wasn't producing, which is why then I picked up a book project or I started doing a lot of media stuff for the podcast. And so I can be creative in those ways and still keep my skills sharp. But it's not— that's not what's paying the bills. It's what's keeping me interested in, right, feeling that passion. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. James, I feel like we could talk forever. Unfortunately, we can't. Not, not at least on this show. I really appreciate your, um, your experience share and, and your vulnerability. I, I know sharing your story with us. How do folks find out more about you if they want to learn more?

Yeah, everything that I do is at my website. It's just my name, jameswalters.com. Perfect. And everything can be found there.

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