The Marketing Is Human | Carol Kabaale

Welcome to another edition of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in South Lake Tahoe, California. I don't know if Lake Tahoe, California, Nevada, if that's kind of like Kansas City where it's on the border. I assume it is, but Anyway South, and I— thanks for listening. Joining me today, Carol Kabali. Carol, welcome.

Thank you for having me, Christian. I'm so excited to be back and talking to you. So good stuff, it's going to be fun today.

So, uh, for— I, I know because Carol was on my other podcast, but for those listeners that don't know, she's coming to us from South Africa, correct? You're still Yes, that is great. Very good. But Carol, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.

So I am many things. I think a lot of women are. I'm a wife. I have a fur baby. His name is Charlie. He's a little Boston Terrier. I enjoy eating carbs and having some white wine and Chardonnay. And then for business, I have an all-female marketing agency that we help coaches find predictable leads and grow a warm pipeline. So, and we do that with Meta ads.

Perfect. Now you said you specialize in coaches.

Mm, but service providers I can help too, but mostly coaches. They just seem to gravitate towards me. I'm not picky, but they find me.

Well, that was my next question. Was that intentional?

Not really, but I think because of a lot of referrals, people talk. So it comes, it tends to come in those, um, same circles. But yeah, if you are a person who is heart-centered and is here for a bigger purpose, generally most of those people tend to be in coaching nowadays. Um, so yeah, they tend to gravitate towards me because we have similar values.

And you primarily work with Meta, so we're talking Facebook and Instagram.

Um, correct, as well as WhatsApp.

Do you do— oh, WhatsApp. That's interesting. Okay, so do you do paid search or is this just managing the, the content on those accounts?

So it's paid search, and we use paid search to move people to the second location. Like, as much as I love Meta, you know, please stay around a little bit longer, I want people to build ecosystems outside of social. I want them to control their own sandboxes.

Yeah, and that's one of the things that I'm seeing in the marketing realm and not just from our experience marketing, but it's almost like we have to be a little countercultural here and get them off of social. And it's, that's not an easy lift. But it's more about the connection. I was mentioning that the pastor at the church I attend a couple of weeks ago said that we as humans are more alone than at any time in human history. Now, he didn't cite a quote, so I don't know if that was an actual study or just his opinion, but it resonated. And I do think there is this need for connection. And I think you're limited on that connection just with social.

Yes, I agree 100%. I also think it's such a, for lack of a better word, like a fake connection. Like everything is so curated. Everything is so planned. It almost feels like it's not real. Like, you have to show up as someone that you're not really. And what I'm trying, you know, to do with my clients is to say, hey, this is who I am. And if you like what you see, let's hang out somewhere else. Let's talk on emails. Let's talk on, like, in messages. Let's create a community somewhere else where you don't have to depend on the algorithm and hope, like, it brings you back and we find each other again. Yeah. So it feels like a more intimate conversation, which I think a lot of people are craving.

Absolutely. It's the connection. Um, do, do you, do you, uh, encourage or facilitate, uh, live events with your clients?

Yeah, so we do. So mainly I like to focus on 3 seasons. The first season is like, are you looking to be visible, to engage if you already have a big following, or even if you have a small following like 2,000 followers, do they even see your post? So that's seasonal visibility. Like, that's one thing that we do. Next one is moving them off to another location. So that's more lead generation. So offering something in return for an email or moving them to set other location. Um, and the last one is everybody's favorite. It's sales. It's where we say like, hey, come to the launch, come to this event, buy my book, buy my course. Um, but I don't like to lead with that one just because I really think where you need connection, you need to nurture people. And that's where people get ads in particularly wrong, is that they want to start with the sale. They want to lead with buy my stuff, buy my stuff. And then people are like so put off by it and then they wonder why their ads are not working.

Yeah. And I understand that because if you're spending money, you know, to do ads, you want to see some type of return for it.

Correct.

You know, I had this thought yesterday as I was working through some things, and I want to bounce this off you. This is— you're the first person that I'm sharing this with, so I'm curious.

That's exciting.

Hit me. You know, I have been tangentially interested and involved in marketing because that's what I did for the company for 25 years. And so I would, you know, follow gurus. I would hire agencies. I would, you know, I spent a lot of money, a lot of time, a lot of effort. And something came to my head yesterday that like, Okay. Everything in marketing has been created. Like, it didn't exist at some point, right? And someone came up with this, you know, whether it's a sales funnel or social media itself. I mean, like, everything was created at some point. But we tend, I tend to gravitate to those things that have worked for others. And that's what marketing professionals tend to push is, you know, a known commodity, you know, like this has worked elsewhere and it's worked in the past. So we'll try this for you. But this idea that every sales journey, every customer's journey could be approached uniquely, like you could create a completely novel way to connect with your customers and engage them and sell them that's never, never been tried before. What are your thoughts?

Yes, I love that idea. Yeah, I think that's what makes marketing exciting because it's, there's not one right way to do anything. Most times when I run ads or we create these ecosystems or these opportunities for our clients, it's unique to them. It's this customer experience that works for you. Some people don't like to talk on DMs. Some people want to just sign up people and have them come to a launch, to an event. Some people are like, no, I need to get on a call with them and feel their energy and their vibe before I let them anywhere near me. Right. And I think all those things are unique, right? What isn't unique is where you find them. So I always say the customer journey can be very individualized and it should be because every business is not the same. However, the thing you have before it, in my case, it's Meta ads. That's the thing that amplifies it. That's the beacon that says, hey, look at me, I've got the solution. And if you have another platform, it could be, you know, you could be on YouTube and they find you that way. It could be that you're on another social platform like TikTok and they saw a video. The beginning can always change, and I feel that it will always change as we go into things like AI and as things progress. The beginning will always shift, but the journey you take people on is generally the same. They have a problem, you have a solution, you figure out if you're a good fit and someone buys.

That's it. Yeah. No, no, I would agree with that. They share common elements. And I guess my thought, where I was going with that for us was like, why be stuck in what someone else thinks will work versus us who understand our customers best coming up with our own way of connecting with them. For instance, we started last month a, we did a pilot here in our home city of Oklahoma City to do the Creative Connection Hour. And we just did a cocktails and hors d'oeuvres, business owners in creative industries. And we had no idea.

I'm gonna need an invite.

Huh? If you want to come, you're welcome.

I'm gonna need an invite.

Well, I mean, I didn't think you'd make the trip, but you're welcome to.

I mean, you had me at hors d'œuvres. Really, you had me at hors d'œuvres.

So, you know, we had no idea what would come and we just put it out there and we had like 20 people show up. And I was thrilled by that, right? And the intent was nothing other than to get these people together to, you know, not to network, but to just get to know each other, right? And so we're going to do another one this month. And we're just trying something new. And really, our intent is not to drum up business. I mean, we didn't do a sales pitch. There was no sales pitch at all. Because we just, we just see this need for connection in the space. And we're facilitating it. And, you know, sure, it will probably generate some fruit in the future. But I think the other thing that business owners get really locked into, and I got locked into it for a long time, is this concept that marketing is some kind of machine where you can put X dollars in the front and get some multiple out the back. And that's just, that doesn't exist. I mean, it's not that you can't create it. I do believe that you can create that machine, but it's not like I can come to you, Carol, and say, do you have a machine? Can I borrow it? You know, can I lease it?

Exactly.

It doesn't work that way.

No, I completely understand. And I totally get that. I think this concept of I've invested money, so I should get money out is very bizarre to me because when I look at marketing as a whole, I always look at it as opportunities. It's just creating an opportunity for conversation, an opportunity to position yourself as a leader, as a person who is an authority, as a person who can educate. Like you yourself, you just created community. You may not have sold, but that has made an impact in someone. They're like, wow, that was such a nice event. And they probably spoke about it to other people. And if they figure out what it is that you do, they're like, oh, I was looking for someone and they had such a nice event. So It all is an opportunity for something else. Where I think the misconception comes in is that a lot of people confuse marketing for sales. Sales is when like you're like, hey, this outcome has to happen. You had a call, did you close or didn't you close? Like that is outcome driven. Where marketing, you, for lack of a better word, you just provide opportunities and you see what comes of it and you try steer them obviously into a sales conversation because of people need that revenue. But for most of the part, it's really creating those opportunities and making sure you have that journey in place to be like, what is the next step, if there is one?

Yes. And a lot of my listeners that have heard me preach about marketing ROI are probably going to think that I'm, I'm committing heresy saying what I'm saying. But it, it's, you know, if for lack of a better term, the marketing is the creative side of it And there's not always tangible results that are measurable. Well, let me rephrase that.

They are and they aren't. Depends how you do it. Right. But there are— I get where you're going with that.

There are things that are tangible that actually do happen, but they're not necessarily measurable. Like if you're building a community and people feel connected and they feel value in that connection and appreciation. Well, you can't measure that. I mean, you know, so, yeah, but is there value? Yes. And I don't think from a business standpoint you should just cast about your marketing dollars willy-nilly. I think they need to be intentional. But for us, for instance, this event, like, we started here in Oklahoma City. But if it proves the concept, We're going to go spend time and start these in other locations. And so it's more about testing and iterating. It's more like, well, let's try this. Let's see what happens. And then if that works, well, let's do more of that.

Yeah. And that's a great way to also just to think about marketing in general. It's like you have a concept, you come up with a campaign or you come up with a theory. Let's try and attract them this way. Oh, okay. So that graphic worked well, or that video worked well. Well, what did we do in it? What did we say in it? It's like you analyze those points and you try to recreate that magic again and be like, let's try and get the same outcome. It doesn't always happen that way, but 9 out of 10, you get pretty close, you know, and you're like, well, you know, let's try again.

Did we discuss Rory Sutherland's book Alchemy when we did, when we talked last time?

I'm not too sure.

Okay. Have you read?

We can chat about it.

Have you read the book?

I haven't read it, but you can let me know.

It's brilliant. I highly recommend it. Rory is a director with Ogilvy, and he wrote this book. It's titled something differently in the UK, but in the US, it was titled Alchemy. And he basically goes through and talks about Ostensibly, it's about marketing, but—

Okay.

He really kind of goes on this treatise about the limitations of the Age of Reason. And it's actually very humorous. It's a great read. He did a great job. But he talks about how marketing, you're dealing with individuals. And groups of individuals, and they're inherently irrational. And, you know, it's—

Sounds about right.

Right. And so, you know, you can do all the reasoning you want and all the analysis you want, and you should, but it's limited. Like, at the end of the day, it's not going to give you a complete answer because people aren't predictable. And, you know, a lot of what he talks about is like, well, I think this might work, but I don't know. So we're going to try it. Um, yeah, yeah.

So I agree with like that. What you've just said is like half my clients. I think this has worked because we've done it before, like you said, and it's worked. We've done it with similar people and it's worked. But ultimately, I also like to remind my clients that people buy when they're ready to buy, not because you're having a sale or because you've decided to launch a book or because you have a new program. They don't care. Like, they're like, oh, I have this problem. Now I'm going to buy. Oh, I need support in this thing, or I want to be a part of this community. It's on their own timeline. It may be something that in the marketing, in what you put together, it's triggered something in them. It's activated something in them where they're like, huh, let me dive deeper into that concept, into that product, into that person. But before that moment, It's like just trying to get— you're fighting cat videos, man. You're fighting flipping cat videos.

That's right.

And like you're playing with this attention. That's what we're playing with. We're trying to get people's attention and it's hard because cats are cute and it's hard to compete against them.

Carol, I hate cats. So there, I said it. I've said it on the show before.

I'm secretly a dog. I am a dog person, but I know a lot of people resonate with the cute cats.

I'm unabashedly.

I go to that analogy a lot. Unabashedly.

Weirdly anti-cats. I mean, not like— their existence is fine. I'm not like eradicate cats just as pets. I have no interest in having a cat as a pet.

Is it because they're just so by themselves and so removed? Because that's what triggers me about them. I'm like, why don't you just come and play with me like my dog does? But you're standing there like, oh, it's the human.

Yeah.

I don't know what that is about.

Well, yeah. I could go down that and my theory on—

No, no, that's fine. We'll chat about the cats often.

Cat and dog people. Yeah. Yeah. So I want to pivot and ask a question. More practical, maybe. So how long have you been in business?

9 years.

Okay. And before that, what was your experience? Did you work in marketing?

So, yes, I worked in corporate for Hilton for— I did business development.

Which was interesting. And, and what, what prompted you to leave that and, and start your own agency?

I wanted more choice in my life. So when you work in hospitality, you seldom have choice because when everybody's on vacation, you're at work. So you live past people. And at the time, I was in a relationship to my husband, and we were high school sweethearts, so we've actually been together for like 9 years at the time then. And I always make the joke, Chris, that he was like, hey, I need your blood type and then I can marry you. So I was like, no worries, I got you, here's my blood type. And then he finally proposed 9 years later. So that's the secret, ladies. If you want a ring, just tell him your blood type. That's all he's waiting for.

You're gonna have to fill in the gaps on that one. So, so Was that to get the marriage license? What, what, why did you—

No, that was just to get him to propose, just to get him to propose.

And so why do you want your blood type?

No, it's, it's, it's a joke, but I see it's not landing, but that's okay, that's okay. Um, so basically I was in this relationship for 9 years, and you know, as a woman, you sort of like, I think after like year 3, you start going like Is he going to propose? Is he not? And I patiently waited for 9 years. I see. So I always say like, I think he needed my blood type. Like that was the last box that he was waiting to tick.

Got it. Got you. Well, he could have asked that very early on. I see.

I mean, he could have.

Where I thought you were going with that is it was something like how I could identify you if, you know, you got lost because I never see you kind of thing. That's where my head went.

You are a very practical thinker, very much like my husband, hence why you both would have needed my blood type. Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Very much so. So, so once— go ahead— he proposed— no worries— so once he proposed, I just knew that I didn't want to keep living past my family, past important events and moments and milestones in life, and it wasn't going to happen in the corporate job that I had. I also saw that financially to get to where I wanted to be or the life that I wanted to have, I would have had to wait a really long time because everybody who made the amount of money that I thought, well, that I still think I need to make, is very old. And I was like in my 20s and they were like in their like 50s and like 60s. And I was like, I'm going to have to wait 40 years. This is crazy. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, we can't do that. So I decided to look for something else, and what really screamed at me and what I was passionate about was, one, helping people, being of service, two, being creative, um, and then I liked a little bit of data. I liked a little bit of something that wasn't just fluff. I didn't just make it up. So I settled on the marketing field, um, and within that I settled on ads, and that was 9 years ago.

Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. So your traditional motivation to be an entrepreneur, financial and time freedom. Correct. Okay. So some people that start their entrepreneurial journey with those intents in mind land in a place where they're maybe working harder than they were before. And/or not making as much money as they were before. Did you experience that?

Oh, yes. So here's a fun fact. I quit and I didn't tell anybody in my family that I was quitting because I didn't want anybody to talk me out of it. Right. So I took my savings and I started my company and I was burning through my savings and I was— I'm addicted. I have to confess to knowledge. So it was the boom of everybody and has a course, a program or something. And I just wanted to gravitate. I wanted everything. I wanted to know everything. So I was reading every book. I was showing up to every masterclass webinar. I was in so many coaching programs and things. And very quickly I went into debt and I had so much credit card debt, especially the first 2 years. I actually worked it out on another podcast, which was like more financially. I had an apartment's worth of debt. Okay. Like, that's how much debt I was in. Okay. Like, it was crazy, but I knew that I was meant to do this because the few clients that I had, even though they weren't paying me a lot, even though I wasn't confident enough to, like, raise my prices, the joy I had out of them, the fact that I was just at home, the fact that I wasn't going into an office, that I was being a part of my family again. Like that meant more to me. So I stayed the course and yeah, it did get better, but it was hard in the beginning. It was hard.

What, what was the switch financially? Where, where did that tipping point come where you started making more money than you were spending?

So that changed for me when one, I was brave enough to put more boundaries into my business. And that meant increasing my pricing, not letting so much scope creep, not working insane hours for things that hadn't happened, being very truthful in what I can do and couldn't do. I think when I started, I just said yes to everything because I was so scared to say no. Um, but I quickly learned I don't like building things. I don't like design. I don't like spending time on Photoshop or Canva or things like that. Like, I enjoy the strategy. I enjoy looking at things and looking at the systems. And once I really honed in on that, my clients got the best version of me, and I was able to get better results for them, and I was able to charge more. So that really helped.

That paragraph, those couple of sentences that you just said there, are very profound because there, there were like 3 things in there that I, I was like I want to pull out. The first is that there's this tendency, especially when we don't have experience and/or knowledge, to not act because it's an unknown. Right. And there's a fantastic book on this. I read a lot, in case you hadn't noticed. A fantastic book.

No, you wouldn't say.

My business coach recommended, and it's called The Big Leap. And it's a Stanford psychologist professor. He's written several books. But are you familiar with the one with the goldfish?

I've seen it. Yeah.

And yes, but essentially it talks about how our brains are wired for protection. And when we go into an unknown result, our mind and sometimes our body starts to work against us. So I did a post on LinkedIn a few weeks ago. I track the statistics of people that have bought my book that sign up for the free resources. And after a year of being published, 6% sign up for the free resources, okay, of the books sold. Now, I know that some people buy the book and never read it. Some people don't read the whole thing, and only 6% of them, uh, will actually reach out and get the free resources to actually implement some of the things that are in the book, right? And, and that's reality. I don't know that it's 6% across the board for everything, but a very small percentage of people will actually act on anything, regardless of how much they know. Right? I mean, they'll just continue to be in that learning mode. Yeah. And so I would tell people, I would tell our listeners, like, understand that exists. And like, if you're just telling yourself that you've got to learn some more to do, you don't. You just need to do.

Yes.

Right?

Yeah, yeah.

The second thing I want to pull out about what you said was that because we feel like we don't have experience and/or knowledge, we tend to say yes to everything and/or not charge enough. And the reality is that when we don't charge much, people don't see value in what we do because, you know, there's a reason why people pay $25,000 for a Rolex. It's not that it's a better watch. It's that it is of that value to them. Right? Right? So the customer can only define the value. I can't define the value. You can't define the value. But what happens then is when you charge less than you're worth, you attract people that don't value what you do. And actually, they're the worst people to have because they run you around because they don't value what you do. Yeah.

It's like they think you're doing them a favor. And I'm like, I'm not doing you a favor, sir. I'm just doing. And then the more you do, the worse it gets because it's like they expect it. Oh no, I know that kind of person. No, no thank you.

Yes, that's exactly right. And, you know, I said there were 3 things. I've already forgotten the third, but those first 2 were great.

Well, you know, those were brilliant. Those were spot on. I probably cut your train of thought. No, it's going to come back.

No, I'm an old man and I forget things. I should write them down, but I don't. Yeah, it's okay. So what is the— what is the— you know, you've been doing this for 9 years. You've had success. Yes. What is the business? I don't want to say problem because that has a negative connotation. It might not be a negative thing. Opportunity, problem, issue. What are you chewing on? What are you struggling with? What's occupying your mind?

So at the moment, it's how do I clone myself? I'm kind of there.

I— That reminds me of my third thing, but go ahead, finish your thought.

There we go. There we go. Let's go back. I will remember.

Okay.

Cloning myself.

It's exactly to your cloning yourself. And it was, you said you didn't like to do Photoshop and Canva and, you know, like you like the strategy part. And that third thing is, I think what's really key starting out is understanding what you're really good at, where you bring the value and letting other people do the other stuff. Because it's not that, you know, for me, it was, it felt a little bit like, well, I'm going to get people to do the stuff I don't want to do. But that's not the reality. The reality is that they're going to be better at it because they want to do it and they like it. And so let's come back to your cloning yourself. Why do you say you need to clone yourself?

So I do have a team and I'm very thankful for them, but I feel like there is a piece missing in my team. So I'm looking, I'm actively looking for someone who's more able to be like a conductor, if you will, because I have a decentralized agency. So I work with other contractors and service providers and it all comes together as like under one roof. And it's usually me orchestrating everything. So it's me talking to clients, bringing things in. So I need a middle person who who understands enough of my strategy to think a little bit like me, but is also great at the backend stuff and keeping everything moving. And I would love to have someone like that so that when I take a little bit of time off to start my family, it all doesn't stop.

Have you attempted—

Right now, that's where the block I see is coming.

Okay. Have you attempted to fill that position before?

I have, and I'm not great at hiring. I will also, I'll also say that I tend to hire on personality, which is bad. Um, but I also think that's a big thing. I need someone who is, who I can get along with. I don't just want someone who, it's awkward, you know? So sometimes they're great and then they're not. And it's like, yeah. So I'm still looking. If you're out there, hit me up.

Okay, so a couple of things on this. My assistant brought her dog. I don't know if you can hear it barking in the background.

Oh, I heard a little bark. That's fun.

He's a miniature dachshund, and I don't know if you've ever owned a dachshund. I owned a dachshund for—

Yes, I have. A black one.

A long time.

And he was so cute.

Yeah, they're complete assholes. I mean, they are the most— They are the most vicious dog, aggressive dog in the known universe.

For such a small dog, they have such big personalities. They like who they like and they will let you know.

Yeah, 100%.

Trust me.

Yeah.

Ours was called Kevin. My mom gave it a human name and I thought it was hilarious whenever she had to shout at this dog. She's like, Kevin, stop that.

Kevin. And they don't listen. They're obstinate as hell.

They don't care. No, no. They absolutely do not care.

I had mine, mine ran out the front door and there was a German Shepherd on a leash. Somebody was walking and my dachshund jumps the German Shepherd. I'm like, and the German Shepherd's just kind of looking at him like, what the hell, man? Like, what are you doing?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anyway, back to my thought.

Yes, back to your thoughts.

I think you're not unusual for a lot of reasons. I never hired anybody in my previous work experience. And so when I got into business, I didn't know anything about hiring anybody and I was awful at it. And it wasn't until I was exposed to the book Who, another book, I know.

Love it.

By Daniel Smart. And he, his dad, Jeff Smart, did the, I think it was the StrengthsFinders. Anyway, they're big into workplace psychology. But the book Who is really about the process of sourcing, interviewing, and hiring people. And it really gave me a process to follow that I have found to be really, really powerful. So that's my recommendation to you and to the listeners is who. But coming back to what that position you're trying to fill, that is a difficult position to fill. It's one of those, as my friend Drew Goodmanson calls, an entrepreneurial inflection point. It's one of those points where you have to change in order for the business to grow. And the entrepreneur generally is very interested in the new ideas, the energy around the startup, you know, all of that stuff. But when it comes to running the business, we quickly lose interest.

And yes, yeah, that's natural. It's not exciting. It's like the fun stuff is creating right now. It's like, oh, we have to keep it.

It's like, right, that's okay.

I guess we have to do this.

And so we have a choice at that point. We have a choice to turn that over to somebody else or continue slogging through it. And usually the slogging through it doesn't work. In my opinion, in my experience, what happened was I got burnt out. Like, I walked away from my business after, you know, 17 years. I was like, I can't do this anymore because I just disliked it that much. And my passion was gone from it. And it all came down to managing people, managing customers, and, you know, setting up processes and, you know, all of that stuff that I don't do well. And so Hiring somebody to do that, even on a fractional basis, even if it's not a full-time basis, is a real key to make that step next forward. So I applaud you for recognizing and figuring out what it was that you needed to move forward. And I wish you best in finding that person because it's not easy.

I know they're out there. I just need to find them. And I think they— I've even thought about this. Perhaps I'm looking, I'm asking too much of one person. So maybe if I split the role, but then I need someone to— one of them needs to be a little bit more ownership so that they can manage the other person. I don't know. So anyway, but thank you for wishing me well. We will find a person.

And as you said that, I I thought of yet another book, Dan Sullivan's Who Not How. And that really is about, like, you know, again, if you think about it, we're not wired for that, right? Like, so we're not wired for the operational stuff. And so we try to solve the problem before we pick the right person. And it's like, no, find the person, they'll figure out how to do it. Because that— How to do it. Exactly. We need to figure out the who, not the how. And then when we find the right person, they'll figure out how to get it done. That's— But to your point, hiring on personality is not a bad thing. I think culture fit is uber important. But from my experience, what I was doing is I was looking not for the specific skills that I didn't have, and wouldn't necessarily be able to identify in somebody that I was interviewing. Like, you know, how do I know if they're good at this? Because I'm not good at it. Right?

Right.

And that's why the, that's how the book Who, not Who Not How, helped with that process. Because it's about identifying the outcomes that you want from this position. And then figuring out what experience and skills they need to be able to reach those outcomes. And then interviewing to see if they have those experience and skills.

Yeah.

But it starts foundationally with figuring out what you need from that person on an outcome basis, not a If that makes sense.

No, it does make sense. It definitely makes sense. Like once I figure out what they need to do, then reverse engineer from there.

Well, it's not even necessarily what they need to do. It's the outcomes you need. Right? I need this to happen, this to happen, and this to happen. I don't know how it happens. I don't know what you need to do to make that happen.

But I just need it to happen.

Exactly. I need this to happen. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. No, I love that. Okay, I've got some homework. I, I do like homework, so thank you. There'll be a quiz next time you show up, so very exciting, very exciting stuff. I was really one of those boring children at school who got excited when pop quizzes and things happened. I was like, yes, secretly. Yeah, so great.

I, I didn't mind, but I never said to the teacher that we—

she hasn't checked homework. I was never like one of those like, oh, you have No, no, no, no. I'm not that crazy. But I did like a test.

Yeah, those kids were the worst.

Yeah, right. I'm like, shh, be quiet.

I want to slap them across the head.

They're like, dude, we nearly got away with it.

Be quiet. Especially those absent-minded teachers that you could get sidetracked with stories. I love those. Tell us about this.

They would just tell you about their day, their vacation. Oh, I love your top. Oh, really? Whole 20 minutes. We didn't learn anything. Perfect.

Loved it.

Loved it.

Great stuff. Carol, how do people find out more about you and what you do?

Oh, that's great. So everywhere on the wonderful internet, my name is simply Carol Kabale. You can see it on the screen. It'll be in the show notes. And if you are thinking of building your own little ecosystem outside of social, I have a really fun quiz. It's only 2 minutes, and after you take the quiz, it will tell you if you are ready to run Facebook ads, if you should be building an ecosystem outside of social. And yeah, it's a great way to start before you test with money because no one wants to do that.

And to clarify, you are in South Africa, but you, you do work with clients in North America. Great.

All of my clients actually are in Yeah, I don't know what I said. Most of my clients are actually on Eastern, um, and I've got like 2 or 3 on Pacific, but yeah, all my clients are actually based in the US.

Perfect. Listeners will have that information and links in the show notes. If you like what you heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. Uh, if you don't like what you heard, uh, shoot us a note, tell us what you'd like to hear, and I'll replace Carol. Until then, ta-ta for now.