The Path to Premium Coaching Success | Ann Carden

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Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Pell City, Alabama. That sounds like the size of town that would have one listener. Welcome to the show, Anne Carden of Expert in You. Anne, welcome to the show. Thanks.

Thanks, Christian. It's great to be here with you.

So why don't we start? I like to call it the origin story. Where did Expert in You come from?

Hmm, great question. So after leaving corporate for 13 years in business management, building 5 successful businesses and selling them, I decided to step into consulting and coaching people in their business. To help them have faster success. And I went down a lot of the wrong paths. And out of that, I almost quit my business at one point because I was going down the funnel paths and I was going down the course creator and I bought into a business coaching franchise and I, that had all the bells and whistles and systems. And after frustration, I kept hitting an income ceiling. And I wasn't working with the clients that really could experience the expertise that I had and the skills that I had. And I found myself really unfulfilled in the business, not enjoying it. And I said, this isn't what I wanted to do. This isn't what I signed up for. I'm either going to figure this out or I'm going to get out. Now, I'm not a quitter. I built a lot of businesses, right? So you have to know I was extremely frustrated with the industry and what I was seeing out there and just all the things I was being taught, especially when I came online. But even offline, I was still taught very low-value strategies to build my coaching and consulting business and just things that just, again, didn't align with what I felt like I could bring to people to really help them speed their success. So I took a step back. I said, what's wrong here? And I figured out that I wasn't really building around my true expertise. I was trying to build from other people's cookie-cutter systems and models and ideas and strategies. But it wasn't, it wasn't really my brilliance and my, my expertise. And that's where my, my method came from.

Yeah, I think there's, it's interesting because I started with a franchise, but I was 27 and I didn't know anything. So it's probably good that I started with a franchise. It was good that I started with the franchise until the French bought my franchisor. And then that was awful, but that's a different story. I think though, that what you're talking about is something that I see out there where there's just this proliferation of experts, systems, solutions that are mass marketed. And, you know, a franchise is a great example. So, you know, if you don't know anything about an industry, a franchise is a good thing because it gives you the structure that you need to have success, that you don't have to learn it on your own., and make mistakes and potentially fail before you get through those things. Like, these are learnable lessons, right? Um, but like with, with my situation, you get to the point where the franchisor and you want to go different directions, right? Like, and, and that's where, um, it doesn't work. And I, I, I think there's a lot of people out there that are looking for quick fixes. Like, they want somebody to open their brains and pour in this knowledge, and then it's just going to be all rainbows and butterflies. But that's, that's not the case. And I don't know if it's just because the technology allows it, like it's relatively low barrier to entry to go in and create courses. And yes, and so there's just a whole plethora of them out there.

Yes, no, that's absolutely true. And the interesting thing is, when I was in the— it was really more of a licensing program with the coaching, but it it was still somewhat a franchise. But the interesting thing is most of the business coaches that they, or the people that they were trying to turn out to be business coaches, a lot of them had never even owned a business. So that was a huge red flag to me. And I thought, gosh, you're dealing with people's livelihoods here. And, you know, if you go in and try to help a business owner and you've never even run your own successful business or owned a business or signed the front of a paycheck, That to me, that's really messing with someone's livelihood. And so it really bothered me a lot. And when I, the other piece of that is now I had to learn all of their stuff, which really wasn't even in my area of expertise. It was, not that I didn't learn anything from it, I'm not saying that, but it was almost like going back to school, Christian, to learn someone else's system. And I had the experience and the knowledge that I needed to be able to really help people at a high level. But it was keeping me very small because now I had to learn all this and it was a very slow path. It was a very cookie cutter system. And on top of that, it wasn't even in my wheelhouse the way— so I didn't even have the confidence, even though I had 40 years of business experience. I didn't even have the confidence to show up the way I needed to because it wasn't in my expertise. And when I finally said, I'm either going to figure this out or I'm getting out, and I took a step back, I thought, Anne, you know how to build businesses. What the heck is going on here? What's going on in this consulting and coaching business that you're not doing that you know? And that's when I just shut everything out and I said, build around what you already are so great at doing. And when I did that, and also build premium, that was the other thing. Stop the low ticket stuff, stop the low-value stuff, bring in the clients that you can help make millions or add millions. Bring those people in. The people you can help be more profitable and scale faster, those are your people, and those are the people that will pay for that expertise. And it was through that process that my, my whole method was born. And the interesting thing is, then I got— when once I kind of cracked the code and I really figured all of that out, I had a lot coaches from that organization that were coming to me, well, how did you do it? How? Because my business literally exploded overnight. It felt like overnight. And they were like, how did you do it? And I would say, well, what was your expertise? And it would be some off-the-wall— I was a music teacher. Really? And you're trying to help people build businesses. So that's the problem. Why don't we build something around your expertise in music or your expertise in whatever? And so that's how that was all born.

Yeah, and I think that's a common thing I see out there with people pitching courses and consulting is the low-ticket offer, right? To get people in there and upsell them. But I think you would agree with this, that if you're targeting a premium customer, not only is that wasting your time, it's actually pushing your target market away.

I would say completely, yes, 100%, yes.

Yeah, uh, yes, yeah.

So I found that out the hard way after I went down a lot, invested a lot of money, more than I'm— I mean, I'm embarrassed to say how much money I invested in different things thinking somebody knew something I didn't. And what I found is there were a lot of so-called experts out there teaching something, but they didn't have enough depth and experience and knowledge to even be able to tell me that this isn't the right path for you because they had just learned to do something and maybe they were successful at that one thing. I'll give you an example. When I decided to come online and I wanted to target a specific market, which at that time was contractors, contractors that were in real businesses, like real business owners. And I was convinced through a program that I paid a lot of money to invest in Well, you can reach them through Facebook. But what I found as I invested in their program and everything that I did, I got them through Facebook, but they were startups. They were all very— they were all beginners. They were all startups. The real business owners, the people that I really wanted, they're not on Facebook. No, I wasn't reaching them through Facebook. Right. Their employees were on Facebook. Their, their manager, their office manager was on Facebook running their page, or they had a marketing company running their page. But they were not on Facebook. And so if they would have had the insight to really understand, like if they would have had the deep experience to understand really what I wanted to bring to the table, they could have told me, and this isn't the right thing for you, this isn't going to work. But instead it was a salesperson. And of course, this is the right thing for you, only to find out it wasn't. Now, Christian, I get value from everything, so I never, ever look at anything as a waste. But could I have done it so much more affordable? Of course, right? If I would have been able to find the right person that could have really looked at my skills, my business, my knowledge, my expertise, and showed me how to play at a premium level from the very beginning. So that's what I do with people.

Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. Yeah, a lot of these experts out there, and I don't even have names to name, so it's not like I'm naming people. It almost feels a little Amway-ish, like I'm going to be successful because I've talked you into believing I'm successful, right? And underpinning it, the knowledge, the expertise, the depth is very thin. Yes. Right? Yes. One of the My business coach actually has transitioned over the 3 years he's worked with me where he's gotten rid of most of his individual, and he now coaches coaches on the business side. Like, so how to do what you're talking about. And having that conversation with him, most of the time it's like, Yeah, these people think they need something more than they already have in order to be a coach. And they don't have confidence in themselves and their expertise, their experience. And so they're hung up on that when in reality they just need some skills around marketing and selling.

That's it.

But they don't need anything other than that. They have the expertise.

That's right. They have the business acumen and the knowledge and the experience that they need. But because very much like I did, they go down the wrong path. They end up with the wrong clients. They end up— it actually— I work with so many business coaches and consultants, so many, and their confidence gets shaken. And their confidence gets shaken, not because they're not amazing at what they do. They're not working with the right people. They're not working with people that really can utilize their expertise and their experience and value what they bring to the market. Again, because they've gone down the wrong paths. And look, when you're working with the wrong people all day long, it's not going to work well, right? And so, they end up feeling like they're not good at what they do. And I— this was me as well. I thought, how can I want these people's success more than they did? Like, what am I doing wrong that I can't convince them that they need to be doing these things? And what I realized is they weren't ready. They were not in the place psychologically or ready for—

Yes. I mean, I use my example is I I never had a business coach. I didn't even hire Jacob on purpose. He came with another consultant, a marketing consultant that I hired, and he was a bolt-on. And after that engagement with the marketing consultant was over, I didn't really get what I wanted, but I kept Jacob. And I had been told by peers I had respected that, you know, you need a business coach. And I'm like, yeah, I don't need a business coach because in my mind, I didn't need to know anything about business. Like, I'm at this point, I was in the game for 20 years and I'm like, what are you going to teach me about business that I don't already know? Right. But the reality is that my business coach, he used to be an Orthodox rabbi. He's still Orthodox, but he's no longer a rabbi because he was tired of being broke. And, you know, yes, he has business experience, but that's not what he brings to the table with me with coaching. He is coaching me around my blind spots, where I'm stuck processing, you know, feelings or making decisions. Like, why am I not making decisions? Or why are you so hung up on this? And it was fascinating. He was asking me a question and it was a profound question because I took like 60 seconds to answer. And then I started answering it and I had this epiphany. I don't remember what the epiphany was, but it seemed profound at the time., and I just kept, you know, vomiting. And he told me several months afterwards, he goes, you know, when you had that epiphany, he said, my phone was on mute. And when you were quiet for 60 seconds, you had that long pause, I was asking questions, but you couldn't hear me. Mm. And That's, I think that's the power of coaching to me, is helping you come to the realization and the answer yourself, what you already have inside of you. It's not Christian Brim coming to you, Anne, and saying, well, this is how you need to do this. I've got the recipe for your problem to fix it. It's understanding what you already know and why you aren't doing it. Like, that's the power of a great coach to me, because you have to come to that place yourself. You know, your places that you get stuck, someone can point them out. Like someone said to me, you need a business coach. I wasn't ready for it. Right. And until you're ready for it, it doesn't matter what anybody else says.

Right. Can I speak to that for just a second? Please. Yeah. So I do believe that there are two types of coaching. And I tend to do both with my clients because I have been doing this for so long. But there is a coach like that where they will see your blind spots and maybe you have all the business acumen and you don't really need that. However, business is moving fast. There are always new things coming up. There's always new marketing. I am still learning every single day something new. And when I came into the online space, that was a whole different world for me. And even the coaching and consulting space was a whole different world for me. From the businesses I had built before. So I needed to know how to build that type of a business. And so to your point, there are some things, yes, you've got it inside of you, but there are other things I believe a lot of people in business, they don't know what they don't know. And that's true why they get stuck too. And so you need, but you need really to me somebody that can really do both of those things. Because you need the strategy and you need the mindset and all the other things that go along with it to make sure you're productive and you're doing what you need to be doing. So, yeah, some people may need more than they need the other. They may have the strategy and don't have the mindset, but you do need both, I believe.

Well, no, I think you're right. I equate that to coaching skill, right? Like, if all of us were in primary school or high school and we had athletic coaches, and what were they doing? They were teaching us the skills in the game, right? We didn't know that. And there absolutely is a place for that in coaching because the amount of information that you have to know as a business owner is is overwhelming at times, right? And to your point, you don't know what you don't know. But I want to go back to this, this idea that someone's not ready. So you, when you talk to prospects, how do you know if they're ready for coaching?

I just have a series of questions that I ask. And, you know, now I've been doing it for almost 15 years. So I have a pretty clear idea of whether or not they're going to Be ready. But one of the things, you know, everyone looks for something different. Because of the level of clients that I work with and because of only taking so many clients, I don't have a volume business. I have a high-end business. Because of that, I vet my clients and I'm very particular about the people that I do work with. And so it's really easy to see for me if they're ready.

So it's a— that's a— you're saying it's a determination you make, not they?

Yes, it's a determination I make. But typically through my marketing and everything that I'm doing, if they come to me, they have already checked me out. They already know what I'm all about. They— I'm very clear about the fact that I don't work with everyone and I don't take everyone. And I'm very clear about the fact that if I do not 100% believe I can help you, I will not take you on as a client. So— but that's my business model. People that are out there doing volume, they don't really— that, that's not their model. They don't really care. They're selling their system. Take it or leave it. If you have results, that's fine. If you don't, I don't really care because this is the system. I'm selling you the system. I'm not promising you results. I'm not. And I have a very different model from that.

So do you, do you ever run into a case? Well, I mean, I'm sure in 15 years you have where, where someone gets onboarded, sold and onboarded, and then you make the determination like, this isn't going to work out. Like, you are not in fact ready.

Yes, I have. More so at the beginning stages when I still was trying to understand who does make a good client for me, who doesn't make a good client. And so, I mean, my success rate is very, very high as long as they do the work and they do what they need to do. And so if I get the impression that they're not going, like they're just not doing it or they're not taking the actions, I do not keep taking their money. It's not a good play for me. It's not a good play for them. I care about the results. So if I want to keep my reputation, I feel like it's just best we, we part ways. That being said, I usually do not have a problem, even if people move at a little slower pace. I'm still very clear with them. You're moving at a slower pace, are you good with that? You know, because I'm here to get you results. I'm here to help you get results. So I'm very open with them and there's always a really great dialogue between us that if they make the decision to move slower, they're okay with that. I'm okay with that because they're still learning, they're still doing, they're still implementing. But yes, I have had people that I've had to say, this just isn't going to work out. But it was more so in the beginning.

So I'm going to ask you a question. You don't have to answer it. Um, hell, this may be public and I just didn't do my research. Um, ballpark, what, what does, uh, someone pay to work with you?

Yes, so my prices run typically between $25,000 to $100,000 to work with me.

And You're telling me that someone would— I'll pick a number— spend $50 grand and not do their shit?

Like, no, they don't. That's the whole thing. When I switched to the premium model, I really didn't have that anymore. It was when I was working at the lower value model. I'll give you an example. When I first started coaching and consulting, you know, an average client was maybe $1,500 a month or maybe $2,000 $1,000 a month. But even at that, they were only paying monthly. So they were paying, and even if I did a 1-year agreement with them, they were still paying monthly. So they weren't really feeling, you know, the impact of that, right? So they could kind of go along. Now I do my business very differently and people pay differently, and that they pay a lot more upfront or they pay in full. And that commitment brings in higher-level clients like I just invest I just invested $25K or I just invested $50K into this and they are going to do it. So, but even if I was to charge them monthly, they're still going to pay a lot more monthly. And so that again, the impact is going to be there because they're going to feel it, but they're only going to feel it obviously for a very short time. But, but the other piece of that is I help them get really high-end clients. So a lot of my clients are getting $50,000, six-figure clients, multiple six-figure clients. So all they need typically is one client and they make their money back. And that's what they're buying into. They're buying into that kind of success.

Yeah. And I'm thinking about an entrepreneur who will be unnamed, new in the business, who was commenting on social media about not being paid on an outstanding invoice. And that client had, it was no longer a client, right? Okay. And my comment to them was, yeah, if you're going to work with me, you pay up front or you don't work with me. And You know, I've been doing it so long, I'm trying to think about the mindset I had before that. Um, but you know, there, there are a lot of people that are going to hear me and hear you say that you got to write a check for $25 grand up front, and they're like, well, who the hell is going to do that, right?

Like, I mean, I have, I have funding options. They, they can get funding, but they're still in They're still committed to that funding through a third party.

But how do you, how do you, how do you address that mindset issue? Like that, that there aren't people that, that will do that. Like that's just not even in the realm of imagination.

Well, they're not my people. And so I think again, you have to get really clear. The people that I bring on, they are all in on their success. And that's the way they look at it. Like I am all in on my success. If I want what Ann can help me do, if I want to get that, you know, I had a client, we got her a $413,000 client, one client, right? $35 grand a month. And so if they want that, then they know there's going to be an investment upfront. And you're not going to— anytime you invest in business, I've built a lot of businesses where I paid out a fortune to build those businesses because I had locations, I had rent, I had staff, I had inventory, all the things, right? And so I look— the people that find me and the people that I look for are people that get it. They get that business isn't free. I don't work with DIYers. I work with people who are serious about their growth, serious about their expertise, love what they hear and say, I should be doing that. I should be making that kind of money for my brilliance and my expertise. So it's really getting very clear in your marketing. And I'm sure there will be a lot of people listen to this that will think, oh my gosh. I mean, I have DIYers around me all the time online, and, and they've come to my workshops. And, and you know what, I, I watch them and I've seen them even after years still be in the same place. I mean, you get what you pay for, really.

So I'm good with that. And it is. So part of it is the act of paying, right? It makes it important to you. And part of that is why the price is that high. Like, it has to be that important to you or you're not going to be successful. Because I see a lot of entrepreneurs out there that are, are just making it and they're struggling, but they're comfortable in that struggle, right?

Like, well, that's okay for them.

True, true. But, but, but they, they think that, um, again, that's why I think these, these low-ticket offers and these, the, you know, all of these courses and stuff are— they scratch their itch. But they don't solve their problem. Right. It's just like, well, that's enough. I'm doing something. See, you know, like, I'm— Yeah.

You know who I think low ticket offers are great for, Christian? People like you and me that actually have a lot of expertise and we just want to learn one thing from somebody. Sure. I buy them all the time. I buy them all the time, but I've never scaled up into their bigger thing. You know, I'm like, oh, that now I haven't. Seen that or I haven't learned that. And so I'll buy into some sort of a low ticket thing, maybe to get one point or one little quick thing. That's who I think courses and low ticket things are great for, is people that actually have a lot of experience and knowledge and just want to, like, up their skill set. They're not doing it to build their business. There's a difference, right? I don't ever buy those to build my business. I invest in really high-end coaches. And consultants to build my business and keep growing. I don't ever buy a course thinking, oh, this is going to build my business to millions. That's just not— Yeah.

But I mean, I think I see it. It could be any number of service providers. Like, it could be accountants like we are or marketing agencies, you know, where it's like, A lot of times what I see is it's like, I'm going to pay this money and then the problem is going to go away. And that's not how that works. You have to do something. Always.

Always. Always. Somebody does. Somebody does in your business, whether it's you or someone else. Somebody has to do something.

And you can't just write write checks to make it go away.

We're not the magic bullet. And that's the thing, too. I don't— if somebody here— here's a good example. You ask me, how do you know if somebody is a good client? If they're so desperate. And what I mean by that is, you know, there's kind of a joke that goes around on social media. You've probably seen it. You say something's $50,000 and they say, send me the invoice. But you say something's $5,000 or $500,000, and they say, well, I want to make sure that you do this, and I want to make sure that you do this, and then make sure that, you know, and everything is right on the person they're hiring. And a $50,000 person says, oh, great, that sounds great, send the invoice. So it's a very different mindset. And so understanding that we're not a magic bullet. I don't do the work for my clients. They still have to take the actions and do the work and implement or have someone do it for them, which is fine too. Obviously, that's great too. But ultimately, their success is still up to them.

Who do you like to work with?

I love to work with people that are true experts. So, I really have two sides to my business. They're either already in a professional service business and they're wanting to level up and really scale that. A lot of times they're not charging for things they could be, so maybe they're giving away strategy to bring in a client. So those, those make good people. Maybe they don't have a scalable, really high-end offer, and so they need something that is more rinse and repeat that can be a gateway to— for bigger clients. Um, so, so people that are scaling. But then the other side is I work with people who really want to launch a high-end coaching or consulting business. They've got the experience, they've got the expertise, they've spent years in their industry, years in their field. So they're true experts and now they want to help other people. And so I help them step into premium from the very beginning, not go down the low-ticket course and the, you know, the little bitty coaching clients, but step into those really high-end— like, I've helped people right out of the gate get $75,000 clients, so, and it was their first sale. And so helping them understand that this is a level they should be playing at, to— and, and plus they don't have to work with as many people. It's not the grind. They do— they just don't need all the same things. A lot of times they don't even realize that that's even an opportunity for them. So that's sort of my mission. I want to make sure they understand you don't have to sell something for $2,000 or even $10,000 unless you want to sell an hour for $10,000 or 2 hours. That would be different, right? You can play at the premium level. And in fact, people are desperate for true experts. They are desperate for experts because there are so many out there that claim to be, but they're really not. And I'm sure this will ruffle some feathers, but it's just, it's the reality of things.

No, you're not ruffling any feathers here. I think you're 100% right. It kind of goes back to that marketing axiom of you have to sell them what they want, not what they need. And there's a lot of crack cocaine out there for sale and it's cheap and it might give you a quick high, but it does you no long-term good. In fact, probably does you some harm.

No sustainability. I'm about helping people build real businesses that's going to be around. It's not about a strategy. It's not about, you know, start a Facebook group. Group and then monetize the Facebook group and then, oops, I got shut down on Facebook. That's not a business. And actually, that happened to me, by the way, right before COVID And so those to me are— that's teaching people a strategy, that's teaching people how to sell an offer, but that is not teaching people how to build a business. And that's not the way that I do things with people. Also, I believe in more customized approaches where everybody's different. Different things are going to align with different people. Some of my clients absolutely love the podcast route and they want to bring in high-end clients to their podcast or through guesting. Other people love speaking on stages. So other people love running virtual rooms and virtual events. So I customize the strategies that are going to align with my clients and what they most want to do. And then we build around that so that they, they're building the sustainability, this visibility and this brand that's going to be around for for a long time, not just offers that are going to impact and change people's lives, but they're also building sustainability in their business.

So would an equivalent brand for an individual— are we talking about creating a Robert Kiyosaki brand or a Dave Ramsey brand, or those are in the finance realm, but Dan Sullivan? Like, are those— is that the level of that you're working with people to achieve?

Not typically. Typically, the people that I'm working with are not multimillion-dollar gurus, or they're not— that isn't really even the direction that they care to go. The people that I'm working with are really people like you and me that they just want to have a really great, maybe a multimillion-dollar business, but they want to play at a higher level. They don't want to live in their business. They want to have a life that they love, but they do want to make an impact, and they don't want to have a big team. So the, the people that I work with really want more of an expert business where they can enjoy their life, and it's maybe their next chapter, it's maybe their next play, or it's their legacy, but they don't want to go the course route. Those things can all come if that's the direction they want to go. Of course, I know how to do all of those things. But most of the time, the people that I work with, they want to just make a million or a couple million or $2 or $3 million just working with a handful of clients at the expertise that they have. And they don't want to live in their business. So those tend to be more my people that I work with. So yeah, I'm not looking to build Dan Sullivan brands, Tony Robbins brands. That's not— I would have to probably live in my business to do that. And that's not my place.

Yeah, if you just work harder, Ann, then—

Yeah, yeah, no, I want to love my life too. And, and that's the thing, and I really do, but the thing is, I really do believe that people still need the expertise of us. Everybody— I, I've of course coached and consulted with gurus, but I don't need to work with people like that to get the results I want. And often I don't enjoy those kinds of programs. They're very volume-based. They're very group-oriented. Once you've been in business for so many years, I— that just feels like a lot of time for me that I don't want to do anymore. I've done all of that. So the people that I work with tend to feel the same way. They don't want to be in big groups of people. They're, they're past all of that. It's like, just show me how I can turn this into something that I love, that I'm— it's going to light me up and I'm going to have the life I want and I get to impact people. But they're not looking to do it on such a crazy volume scale. And that's really what we're talking about.

And how do people find you if they want to learn more about Expert in You?

Yes, if you are interested, you can go to my website at expertinyou.com, or you can go to my consulting website, which is annelkarden.com. So, I have the marketing agency website, and then I also have my consulting But there's a lot of the same stuff on both.

So perfect. Listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, you can shoot us a message. Give us some suggestions.

Don't have her on again.

And yeah, we'll get rid of Anne. It'll be no problem.

There you go.

Until then, ta-ta for now.

Thank you. Bye.