The Power of Creativity in Marketing | Jon Weberg

if you establish a strong enough brand, you can sell anything remotely with consistency. Again, just look at anyone who's ever endorsed anything in that, like you're saying, has no expertise in the area, no knowledge, et cetera. It's like, why does this make sense? It's just because they've built such a good, which is a part of, I never believed in branding for like the first 8 years of being in business. I'm like, branding is a joke. Branding isn't real. It's like this, this weird concept I didn't quite understand, but branding because of creative and just branding in general is actually huge because it's like, for example, like why I talk about like Frank Kern. Frank Kern is my digital marketing OG and he is one of the first kind of digital marketing thought leaders of sorts. And Frank, because he has such humor, because he's again, all these, again, it's a lot of actually, I believe the first two elements I call them the three E's. He's so entertaining in his content, is so good in educating his training and everything he talks about that because he follows these two factors, you naturally want to follow the third and be enticed to buy from him.

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Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today is Jon Wieberg with Profitalyze.

Jon, welcome. Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it, and I cannot wait to, to spit some value for your people.

I'm eager. So tell us the short version of what you do and how you got here.

I help businesses take their current business model and make it a lot more profitable by optimizing their conversion rates, lead generation rates, lead to sale rates, customer retention, and a lot more. And how I got here, I'll really, really summarize it real shortly, is I was around 12 years old and I saw my dad start digital marketing. I decided to begin pursuing it at that age. And I kind of saw the lifestyle that was portrayed by traveling entrepreneurs, you name it. And I wanted that because we come from a pretty poor background. And I decided I was going to double down. And for about 12 to 15, I had a gaming blog. I dabbled, wasn't making money, just was approaching, learning about business very, very basic.

Well, you were 12 for God's sake.

Right, right. So I couldn't even conceptualize probably a lot of the different ideas and how things worked. And around 15, I decided to begin making money with it, started with affiliate marketing, launched my own business. Worked my only job at Walmart. I worked out for 6 months, took all the money from Walmart, put it into my beginning first business of my own, failed miserably, lost all the money I saved from Walmart, went back to affiliate marketing. Then 18 to 21, started seeing more success, doing well, started speaking, traveling, et cetera. 21 to now 26, uh, more towards consulting, more towards services and just focusing on helping businesses, uh, kind of hyper-optimize for maximum profits across everything they do.

So, okay, what was the business you had that failed?

It was an all-inclusive marketing sales advertising business training center. Uh, because I, yeah, I always had the idea, it still exists. I always had the idea that what if there was one place you could go to to learn anything you wanted to grow the business? So I want to learn about running ads, I want to learn about email marketing, I want to learn about advertising, how to get on podcast, SEO, all these different skill sets, but there really wasn't one unified place to go to. So I figured, why not create it myself? Now, again, being 15, my knowledge base to build off of was limited.

A little limited.

A little slightly limited. So even the marketing for it, of course, was pretty atrocious. The education was not bad for the time. It wasn't bad for for the time yet. But yeah, I just didn't know enough about how to generate leads, how to build the proper sales process, how to follow up enough. And I just didn't do good for a variety of those reasons.

Well, you, you again, you can be forgiven because you were 15. I think that's awesome that you started that journey so early. And you, you mentioned your dad. One of the, one of the questions I like to ask creative entrepreneurs is what did you learn about money growing up?

Mm. I learned, what did I learn about money? Well, one, what I learned originally is that it's very scarce. It's very hard to make. It's very difficult to keep. You know, it was something that my parents argued about 24/7. At one point, our family lived in someone else's basement in a welfare apartment. So I was unplugging nightlights because I'm like, oh, if it saves them just a little bit less money, you know, or more money, they'll stop, you know, they'll stop arguing. Whatever else. Yeah, it was, it was rough. But I also learned that if you work hard, you can have a very successful business, very successful life and accrue money very freely. So my parents, you know, my dad worked 3 jobs, my mom worked 2 jobs, and they worked their asses off to get us out of that situation that we were in. So I did learn to work hard, to work smart, and to always strive to make as much as you can.

Did any of those financial habits translate into your business when you started?

I think definitely, uh, being very scrupulous, being very careful and cautious with how you spend it. Now I've learned to dilute and get rid of that habit. You know, of course, I, you want to spend smartly in business and be very careful with where you're allocating money for advertising, for your team, et cetera, different things. But I think it's still in me a bit.

Yeah.

Just because also as well from hiring different agencies, working with different people throughout the years, I've learned that there's less people than I thought who are really, really truly great at what they do. And if you're going to hire someone, you really do want to find the best of the best and not be afraid to spend the extra money to get the best of the best. Because otherwise your money is going to be spent, wasted with someone who can't actually get you the results you're looking for. I mean, recently we, this is probably about 2 years now, we learned a $60,000 mistake, we call it, because we hired 2 SEO agencies. Because over the years we've run paid ads, we've done organic, we've done a variety of different things to generate leads, but we never dabbled with SEO. And we knew that SEO, if done right, can create a limitless free stream of leads and customers permanently. So, you know, that sounds nice. So we hired both these agencies and unfortunately, over the course of 6 months spending $60,000, they produced zero growth of traffic on our website. So for anyone, that's, that's a pretty big ouch. That's a huge, that's a huge ouch. So with that, again, we've learned to number one, take more time. I think it's more, more important to take more time and really research where your money's being spent and with who, and really, really spending time seeing if they are really of the quality they claim they are. I mean, really deep dive on testimonials, really deep dive on the results they've generated for their clients, and learn as much about people as possible. If you're going to hire an agency, you're going to hire a consultant, you name it.

Yeah, I think one of the things that's I've come to realize is whether it's paid or SEO, uh, or social, you know, we're, we're all kind of beholden to these companies that we can't control, and they're not going to tell us the secret sauce because that's how they make their money. And, um, I think it leads to unscrupulous vendors for sure. I, I think there are ones that have good intention, but it's, it's like alchemy. We're not sure how this works.

We're just going to kind of put some things together that worked in the past and hopefully it works for your business model, which I think that also was a part of the issue is we figured because they've worked with local businesses that it would work for us as well. But local and global SEO are two completely different monsters, like entirely. So I think it was definitely on our part. And you're, I think you're also right. Some of them, They do have good intentions, but they actually, I think, unfortunately don't know enough themselves or haven't actually been successful themselves. So they're just doing their best with what they kind of have at the time.

Yeah. So talking about, you know, the value of money when you grew up, did any of that affect your ability to price or obtain profit in the business?

I think Initially, especially, you know, we were very wary of increasing pricing, charging a lot for our services, charging a lot for what we did. I mean, I remember when I was 18, maybe I was 17, 17, 18, and I charged like $800 to build an entire website funnel sales process emails. I was willing to do anything. If you got some money for me, I'll do whatever you need.

You're talking Bangladesh money, right?

Bang the dash money in America. Yes. And it's because, yeah, you're afraid, especially when you're first getting started. I feel like people are afraid to lose the client, lose the customer, and rightfully so, especially if you at the time need that money or it would really help out with different things. So I think that was a part of it. And also it just is scary for people, almost like public speaking is scary for people. It's scary to go, well, I can charge $2,000, $3,000, $5,000, $10,000. For, or more for what I do. It should be a push, I believe, for most people, because as we've kind of walked through, in my mind, most of the people who are helping businesses grow or who are performing any services aren't actually like the absolute best in the world. So as long as you are somewhat competent and you really do your best to help a customer or client, you're going to do a pretty good job. And you probably should get paid at least somewhere in the range that you're thinking you, you would like to, because you can do better or equivalent of people who are charging a lot more who are actually doing and performing at a lot lower level.

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That's true. Pricing is one of those things that just fascinates me, and I, I think the thing that fascinates me most about it is that a lot of the value that someone perceives is based upon what they pay. In other words, if they pay a lot, they see a lot of value in it. If they don't pay very much, they don't think it's worth much.

Yo, Absolutely. 100%. And that's what, that's another important thing to realize is that when you charge more, let's just say you will get less clients, but you're going to get to me more importantly, clients that also, what usually comes with higher pricing that are less of a headache that aren't going to charge back that you're not going to have a lot of problems with. And that will be more committed to the process because of the perceived value. They also, I believe, perceive. How much work you're putting into it to be more significant, and they want to put more effort into that relationship as well. So it's definitely a move a lot more people need to make, especially, for example, like agencies or consultants that have been charging, let's say, $3,000 to $5,000 to $7,000 a month or more, even charging for months or years the same pricing. Move it up 10%, 20%.

You'll—

yeah, probably see the exact same conversion rate or remotely closely and get a better client possibly.

And I say in the last 3 years, the inflation problem in the United States, if you haven't raised your prices, you're going backwards for sure. Because your costs are going up.

Oh, entirely. Your costs are going up. Plus ads are getting, especially with like advertising, I would say especially over the last year or two, I've seen a lot of agencies, a lot of people panicking over ad prices going up because of many different reasons. Sure, the media companies, sure, different things happening in the market, different things happening throughout the world. There's been a few different global things happening in the world. Most people have noticed that does affect, it affects people's, you gotta think of someone's looking to spend $2,000, $3,000, $5,000, $10,000 and everything for them is more expensive. Making a choice to grow the business when they can make a choice to conserve or make other decisions is definitely impacted.

Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. Uncertainty causes fear, and fear makes people sit on their hands. And, you know, all different situations, but definitely business and money. I mean, yeah, I, I know, uh, you know, there was the, the SAG strike and, and the Screenwriters Guild strike, and there, there was a tough eating for a lot of people in that space. And even it kind of trickled over for videographers in general and production companies, even, you know, doing commercial videos. It's like everybody started sitting on their hands, you know, 18 months ago. It's, it's a challenge. Okay, so I'm gonna pivot here a minute. What would you, in your area of expertise, which is affiliate marketing, what is your go-to advice? You just came back from Budapest speaking on the subject. What's the information that people that are in that space need to know?

I would say, and I'll actually go on the focus of creative too, and this also I would say applies to B2B, B2C, no matter what you're doing. And additionally, it applies to your advertising, your sales process, your follow-up, every part of your business. I think being creative and standing out and knowing how to properly create a real reaction and emotion within your audience across all those different elements is huge, especially with AI. You know, until AI gets good enough that it can instantly design a business that converts better and optimizes better and does all these different things, which is happening very quickly. I think what temporarily is going to perform exceptionally well is a very human, personal, one-on-one, humorous, fun, exciting touch. And that's what most businesses, especially in the B2B world but in the B2C too, are so afraid to do. They're so afraid to show their personality because it is unprofessional, quote unquote. They're so afraid of doing these different things that they, they're constantly bleeding out their profits because they aren't willing to do what is the thing that will make them stand out. And if their marketing, their advertising, their sales, their follow-up stands out, that's what makes people want to pull their attention to them. And that's what abstracts them from competitors and truly brings more people over. One of the specific ways to do this that I talked about in Budapest, and this applies more so to follow-up and email marketing, but also to affiliate marketing. And across an entire business is, in my mind, you have to relate in 3 different main ways. And you have to kind of follow the foundational process of marketing. That is, you have to entertain or draw in someone's attention. You have to educate or nurture that attention. And then you have to entice or turn that attention towards an offer and generate a customer. And the vast majority of all ads you see everywhere in all marketing and all follow-up and all sales only is enticing. It's always focusing on buy now, we are the best, we have a good offer, here's some bonuses, etc. And you're skipping the process of these two first ones, even though these are the most important because they are what bring the most amount of people in and build the relationship that allows people to become long-term buyers over time. So I prescribe to people that in your ads, in your follow-up, in your sales process, but especially in follow-up, because that's where you're constantly able to have communication with leads and with customers. Focus actually a lot more on those first two elements being entertaining and educating, because while you're running a business and while it maybe, maybe even could be very profitable, there is so much more profitability in the long-term nurturing and management of those leads and the long-term nurturing and management of your customers that if you focus more on that, let's just say you'll generate even, let's just say you'll generate less immediate customers. The long-term customers, long-term leads you generate will vastly outnumber, you know, the initial, the initial shock. And that's what people are so focused on because of the market, because of expensive ads, because everything going on. They want results now, now, now, now. They want the front end of their business to perform right now. And that was a big thing in Budapest. A lot of people I talk to are, and it hurt my heart, you know, they go, I don't do much email marketing. I'm like, but that's where the vast majority of your money actually is. Like every study across marketing shows email marketing and follow-up is by far, you know, over the past like 10, 20 years is the highest performing marketing channel there is by multiple times.

Would you say that in, in doing that? Entertainment and education, that you're, you're actually building the value of the customer to your business?

Oh, entirely, entirely. And you're building a genuine relationship. And you're— again, I think all marketing, the purpose is to cause emotion. So if you take a look at like the Harmon Brothers ads for like Dr. Squatch or Squatty Potty, which by the way, if the Harmon Brothers run your ads, it's a minimum of $1 million. Upfront and they take like 20 or 30% of your business for the life of that product. Because they're, but it's because their creative is so good because again, their marketing angles are the first thing they want to do is relate and build a connection to your business. So even like right now, I'm talking about them because they're branding, because the imagery in their ads and their marketing is so amazing that it outperforms everything in the marketplace, even though these are big businesses that are making hundreds of millions of dollars they create, you know, ads for. It's not professional as you would think, but it outconverts everything else. Another good example is, um, he, uh, Ryan Reynolds. For people who don't know, which you probably know, is Ryan Reynolds literally with his creative strategy in advertising and marketing and everything he does for a business can jump into a business, create their ads, create their marketing for them, and instantly raise the profitability enough that he can put a bunch of money into them, do that, and then sell it and immediately generate tens of millions of dollars or more.

Now, I— would you, would you classify that as affiliate marketing, Ryan Reynolds?

I mean, technically, I'm sure what he does is he probably does take a portion of the business, which would be similar to affiliate marketing because you're collecting a percent of the total commission of the sales being generated. So I mean, partially what I'm saying kind of does apply across different avenues. Um, but even in affiliate marketing, if you're doing affiliate marketing, referring customers to an agency or to a different product service, it still applies because whether you're in affiliate marketing or not, you're still following the same process of you need to generate leads, you need to somehow nurture and educate those, or yeah, nurture, educate, and entertain those leads, build a strong enough connection, and you're still referring them to a different, uh, business or customer base or an audience. But initially, where they're at with you and your brand still is very, very meaningful.

Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. It's, it's crazy to me. And then, you know, I, I go back to celebrity endorsements before the digital age where, you know, just because Joe Namath said this was the best beer, people would buy it. And it's like, well, what makes Joe Namath the expert on beer? Absolutely nothing. I find this affiliate model interesting because of how that trust transfers from Joe Namath to, I don't know who he marketed beer for. I don't even know if he marketed beer. It doesn't matter. But, you know, how can he take his trust that he has as a football player, I guess? I mean, like, I don't know what that trust is, but it's— but it is the connection, right? It is the— they trust him because they know him.

Yes. I think that's also with like— also with like influencers and kind of that space. It's also familiarity. And if you establish a strong enough brand, you can sell anything remotely with consistency. Again, just look at anyone who's ever endorsed anything in that, like you're saying, has no expertise in the area, no knowledge, et cetera. It's like, why does this make sense? It's just because they've built such a good, which is a part of, I never believed in branding for like the first 8 years of being in business. I'm like, branding is a joke. Branding isn't real. It's like this, this weird concept I didn't quite understand. But branding because of creative and just branding in general is actually huge because it's like, for example, like why I talk about like Frank Kern. Frank Kern is my digital marketing OG and he is one of the first kind of digital marketing thought leaders of sorts. And Frank, because he has such humor, because he's again, all these, again, it's a lot of actually, I believe the first two elements I call them the three E's. He's so entertaining in his content is so good in educating, his training and everything he talks about, that because he follows these two factors, you naturally want to follow the third and be enticed to buy from him. And that's what these influencers and affiliate marketers do that are successful is you focus on those first two. And that's really all marketing is, is gathering attention and then nurturing that attention and then bringing it to a product, product that helps the customer and then repeat, repeat, repeat. Learn how to increase retention, and you are good to go.

It reminds me a conversation I had a couple of months ago with an agency for influencers, which he was saying he and his wife started this agency 6 years ago. And, you know, 6 years ago, he said there wasn't an industry for agents for influencers. But what he said was that when he started if you didn't have 100,000 followers, you couldn't really get enough volume to make any difference, uh, as far as monetizing that. But he said it's, it's now down to where it's— you can have a small following like 30 or 40,000 if they're engaged. And I, I see this trend where people are kind of like micro grouping around, you know, either, either lifestyles or interests or things that elicit emotion. And it's like all of the products and services may have nothing to do with each other, but that's what's tying them together and that's what's allowing them to be successful.

Right. It's close enough to the same idea that they can promote and do it, no worries. And I think also Yeah, I've also seen and heard that now sometimes actually people with very, very large followings have no success or a little success depending on one, relativity of the product and service to them. But also I think really is the engaged, the very engaged audience, which is why maybe like what you're saying is these smaller followings of, may say it's 10,000, 20,000, 30,000, they're not huge, but they're so much more engaged because they're coming up because they're probably working harder for their audience to generate them and to grow them and to nurture them because they're not at this big enough level where they think they can just produce content and be fine. That's where there's also a lot of opportunity too. I think it's like micro influencers or something. I've heard that term or similar terms of working with these smaller audiences and they're just, they're way more engaged and care more about their, they have a smaller group, but more intensely involved. That area of expertise or in that brand or in that influencer, et cetera.

Sure. I'm going to pivot again back to money. What has been, and you've been doing this a long time, although you're relatively young, what has been the biggest financial challenge for you in running a business?

I would say mainly on trying to structure larger deals. Okay. And so pricing larger deals, pricing, I say, I would say pricing larger deals has been difficult because depending on the company size, it's hard to gauge how much percent, I think mainly percent of a deal you should charge. So say for example, uh, there is a SaaS tool like an email marketing service, like an autoresponder. And I've done this before and I've reached out and said, hey, I would love to design a course for your service that you offer internally as your own product. Because a lot of, a lot of agencies, for example, have their main service and then they have nothing to downsell or resell. They just keep bringing back people to their main service and they're missing out on 50 to 70% of the customers who would probably buy a course that wouldn't be their service, but that taught them the same things they could run. Themselves on their own. And the same applies, for example, to an autoresponder. They had this monthly recurring service. Obviously, that's amazing, but they're missing out on more profitability by offering something else in-house that they can structure for their audience that they'd still want, that could even still bring people back to their service. So I think pricing that has been pretty hard because you don't want to be too greedy. And really, really turn off a business or turn off a company because too high a percentage, you know, to some, like I've, I've considered doing percent of equity in a company. And I didn't, I didn't know initially, like for example, I, I reached out to a business and wanted to work with them. And I, I thought like 5% equity was okay. And equity world, 5% from what I know is crazy.

It depends on the valuation.

It depends on the valuation. You know, some that are big enough, you know, they're more like 1%, 2%, 3%, kind of like a, a, a max for depending on how you're involved with the company. Um, so that was kind of a big mistake is not spending enough time actually learning how to structure bigger deals. And I'm still kind of, I think, learning that over time. And then also partnerships, for example, with like a SaaS company with the agency, uh, figuring out what percentage do I do percentage of lifetime customers who buy this offer? Do I do you pay me $50,000 or $100,000 upfront and you collect 100% of it? Or do I do $25,000 or $10,000 upfront and then maybe I get 20% and you guys get 80%? I dabble with many different ways. I've started doing, I think, offering 2 or 3 actually. I'm open to them all because I, you know, bigger partnerships are a lot more equitable and a lot bigger deals. So trying to find any way to negotiate and communicate with them in a way that won't be offensive or that isn't like, uh, you have no idea what you're doing or we're not really sure about this. So usually I, I'll do like one of those kinds of three options, either a lot of money upfront, um, some upfront and a smaller percent. Or let's just do percentage. I keep some, you keep some, call it good, call it a wash. So that's still those, uh, is a process figuring out with who, how much to do, etc.

For sure. Yeah, I think, you know, my brother, I would say my younger brother, I would say loosely is investments and investments. The thing that just blows me away about this guy is he can sit down, listen to a conversation, listen to the players that are involved, and instantly figure out how he can insert himself into that and make money. And he understands it intuitively. And I, I think for most of us, I can't do that. It, it's important to really understand the economics of everything's going on and the risk of both parties. So, you know, in your, your three pricing option there, one of the really what you're doing with those three options is you're assuming— you are assuming different levels of risk, right? So getting my money up front and no residual is no risk. Versus I'm not going to get any money up front and I'm just going to get paid residual is all the risk. And I, I think I, I've seen that go bad because people don't really understand the risk and they haven't analyzed that through to say, okay, what am I really risking here? And is the, is the juice worth the squeeze? Am I getting compensated for that risk?

Right, right, right, right. Entirely. And I also, I, I advise people before going into this kind of avenue. Contracts for big deals, necessary. Absolutely. I recently made a big mistake. There was a very large affiliate network, one of the most successful in my space. We did not sign a contract. It was all this verbal and you know, you think you can, you cannot operate on that at all. So time comes for launch, I build everything out. We're good to go. I think on my end it's perfect. It's going to be a great deal for both. On their end, deafening silence. Deafening silence. And I went, I knew. And it's always like, I know I should do this, but you know, it feels— no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Big deals, especially partnerships and different things, don't play around. You need a contract, a very defined, exact, no wiggle room. Very fair. Fair is good. Fair contract specifying exactly who's going to get what, how it's going to work, if they're going to promo, if you're going to promo, etc. I think that was also one of my learning curves for, for a recent almost partnership, for sure.

Absolutely. Because yeah, nobody likes lawyers until you need them, right? But, you know, You, you go through one or two of those deals where you get sideways and you learn your lesson for sure.

Yeah, 100% right away. Because you go, well, if I would have just spent a little more time and a little more money, we could have not had this entire thing fall apart.

And I, and I see way too many people trying to do it themselves. I'm like, do not try to do contracts yourself. Pay the money. Hire an attorney.

Yes, especially because the fine-tune of the language— I've read through and I've made some and I've looked at very specifically, you know, a change of one or two words could change, I mean, truly a lot.

Yeah, I will give this advice. My experience is, is because I deal with a lot of attorneys with my clients and, you know, they always want to go to the attorney first. And I'm like, you know, let's get some of these big questions answered because attorneys just by default are going to want to talk about all the options and all the different ways you could do it. And it's, it's a hell of a lot cheaper if you've, you've already come up with a deal structure that, that you think you want, right?

You've laid out kind of a full thought-out proposal, and you've agreed at least on most of what you think is going to work for both parties.

Right. And, and then the attorney, you know, then they can poke holes in your ideas. Well, like, well, you think that's going to work that way, but it's not. You know, that's fine, that's what they're there for. But if you go in and don't really have an idea of how you want to structure it, and you're going to end up spending a lot more money than you need to. Yeah, yeah.

So people don't do that, you're going to lose— you will lose your shirt. Every time.

So, John, how do we find you?

You can find me on number one, YouTube. So youtube.com/@johnwieberg, no H, just J-O-N-W-E-B-E-R-G. Also, if you want to start or grow your business at maximum profitability, go to profitableyes.com. And other than that, just kind of watch this podcast again. Read it over, listen to it again, and any of my content on Facebook, on Instagram, look me up, you'll find me. Just, oh, I would say as well, look at different podcasts, listen to my other podcasts, listen to them and learn, learn, learn, learn, get nurtured as much as possible, learn as much as possible. And then only if you think I'm good stuff, consider working with me.

Perfect. John, thank you very much for your time today. I appreciate it. Listeners, if you like what you've heard, please subscribe, please rate the show. If you don't like what you've heard, send us a message and let us know what you'd like to change. Until then, ta-ta for now.

And that's a wrap for today's episode of The Profitable Creative. Until next time, you money lovers. And don't forget, Profit First for Creatives is live via Amazon.

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