Turning Complexity into Clarity | Josh Cantrell

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Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. A special shout out to our one listener in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. Never been to New Hampshire. I've heard it's lovely this time of year, but thank you for listening. Joining us today, our guest, Josh Cantrell. Of Signal Brand Works. Josh, welcome to the show.

What's up, Christian? Yeah, glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Well, I'm glad you're here as well. So why don't you tell the listeners what Signal Brand Works is all about?

We'll start there. So, okay, cool. Well, Signal Brand Works is about helping B2B business owners who struggle to communicate about what they do find the right words that helps make what they do easier to sell. So it's a lot of messaging, strategy, positioning, and copywriting. And yeah, we hope we take people who sell something complex, expensive, or potentially confusing, and then we simplify it so it's a lot easier for them to, for their clients to understand it. And so they can sell it easier too.

I love that. So how long have you been doing branding or, or Brand Works?

Yeah. Yeah. So, I would go back to probably 2017 is when the business started. And, um, I got— you may be familiar with a company called StoryBrand or Process StoryBrand. So I got certified in StoryBrand in the fall of 2017, but I had been doing my business kind of loosely until then. But that was really, uh, the kind of the impetus for kind of the modern iteration of the business, you know, the, the version where I felt like I had a pretty clear focus of what we were going to do for people instead of just kind of like a general agency. We went for about 8, 9 months just kind of doing everything for everybody, and then eventually focused in more on messaging, positioning, and copywriting.

I'm going to put a, put a pin in that and come right back to it. What did you do before Signal Brand Works?

Yeah, so immediately before that, I was, um, the marketing director for a real estate software company, and before that, I was the marketing director and marketing coordinator and intern for a, in, in reverse order there. So started out as kind of an intern and then, uh, grew from there for an IT company in town, a local technology services company. And, um, just kind of worked in-house, worked on their marketing stuff, would, uh, pick up a little bit about the industry here and there. And then went to about— I worked there for about 6 years, went to go work for a real estate marketing software company. Um, that one was, uh, a weird fit, not a good long-term fit. So about after about 8 months, 9 months we parted ways and I started, essentially started the, you know, the, the tadpole version of Signal Brandworks at January 2nd, 2017. So that was kind of the flow.

And okay, so what, why at that point did you make a decision to start your own business? Well, what was different at that point?

Yeah, what was different was I no longer had employment. So I, I got fired from this marketing software company. Opening essay part ways earlier, but the, the reality is they, uh, they let me go, you know. I wasn't super sad about it, to be honest. It wasn't a good fit either way. So it's just one of those where it's like, man, um, it was the first time in my life I realized like, oh yeah, things don't always work out exactly the way you plan for, you know. Um, my career before then had been pretty smooth, and so this was the first time it was like, oh wow, I got punched in the gut. That doesn't feel good. Um, how am I going to feed these kids and my wife and myself? And what are we going to do next? So, um, excuse me. Um, so that was the first— that was the big challenge. That was the first time in my career that, that I'd faced like, uh, I don't know what to do and I got to figure this out and nobody else is going to figure it out for me. I got to do it. So, um, I talked to a friend, and the first guy I talked to about it was just a buddy of mine that goes to my church, and we were at this kind of retreat. I just lost my job. We went on this retreat and, uh, I was like, he was like, you doing okay? I was like, actually just lost my job. I don't know what to do. And he was like, oh, you should do some work for my company. And I was like, huh, okay, cool, let's talk about that. So got my first client, like the first conversation afterward, and that was kind of the open door to, oh, maybe I can own my own income, you know, I can generate and I can bring this stuff in and I can control I can control my paycheck. And so that was the first time it was ever like, huh, maybe people will pay me and I could do okay. And so it was, uh, over the course of that year was I was DJing a bunch of weddings. I bought 10 storage units sight unseen. I started an eBay store. I was doing Storage Wars and all sorts of interesting, you know, interesting ways.

Did you have the skeleton gloves? I always thought those were—

No?

Yeah. No. Didn't have those. But probably found a few pairs in these storage units for sure. Yes. But anyway, and so after about 8 or 9 months, I was able to quit all that because the business was paying for itself and realized that I could do this. So that was kind of the start of it.

I love that. I find, you know, some guests come on and they're like in employment and really struggling with, wanting to start a business. And that can go on for years, right? Where there's this underlying dissatisfaction and they feel like they're being called to do something differently, but there's that fear, that golden handcuffs that keep them there, the stability that's not really stability. Like to your point, like, you know, You're not in control when you're an employee. And so in a lot of ways, you can look at being fired as a blessing. Like, that's a good thing because it gave you that opportunity to explore what you have created. I want to go back to StoryBrand because that's kind of interesting. Your story about doing a lot of things for different people and then making the switch to StoryBrand. I find it interesting because, you know, StoryBrand is a brand. What drew you to StoryBrand and like, were you seeking, what were you seeking when you went there? Yeah.

I got in pretty early in the StoryBrand process. I was probably one of the first 60 to 70 or so guides that were certified, kind of the second, probably the second or third round of, of guides. So they— I was, um, I, I got into it because I needed leads and I wanted some clarity. Maybe they can give me an opportunity, maybe they can give me some structure around selling something that's aligned to what I like to do and what I'm pretty good at, which is the words and the thinking, aligning the words to the strategy and Um, I had kind of— I thought I was good at that, but didn't have a framework. And this was like, huh, framework sounds really good. And they say they may be able to send me some leads. Um, and so I was able to start. And then within like about a month, I had paid off the investment from the leads that had come in through it. It's a lot slower now. I would say that there's few— there's, I mean, hundreds and hundreds of guides at this point. So there's way less of an opportunity for that, although there's still some. But I was hoping for structure and additional opportunities, and it, it was a no-brainer at the time for sure.

And so you got the leads. What, what did you get from StoryBrand that you weren't expecting or weren't looking for?

Yeah. Yeah, that's good. That's a good question because there was a lot of things that I wasn't necessarily expecting. I wasn't expecting to essentially kind of have like a business in a box. You know, I was thinking I might learn some things. Um, I was, they were, I mean, there were some packages like, hey, if you're just starting out and you are good at copywriting and you can follow a framework, people love this framework. It's really effective. Sell these things around this price point. You'll help a lot of people and it'll help you kind of kickstart your business. And so I had, um, already been doing marketing for a while. So I could see immediately the value of having a structure like this of walking people through in order for, for creating a website. One of the, you know, my boss previously at the software company that, where, you know, I lost my job at, they, one of the projects that I was struggling with at the time was like, they wanted to, they kept saying the words, tell the story. We want to tell the story. We want to tell the story. And I was like, I get that in theory. I don't know that we have a mutual understanding of what that means, you know?

And so, or even what the story is. Yeah. What the story is, how to uncover what the actual story is.

And so in their mind, it was like, I want people to understand like our story. But the StoryBrand paradigm shift is so helpful because it's like, no, no, no, you're trying to help the client achieve their story, tell their story. What story are they living out? How do you fit into it? There's a place for you in that too. But anyway, it was just super helpful.

Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. Yeah, because I assume the, the, the software company was talking about their story, not the customer story. Yeah.

Yep. Yeah. And I think they, they probably had an idea of like, we want to do that to some degree, but Um, yeah, it's always the default when it's like, we need to tell the story better. It's like, we need to tell our story better. We need to make our stuff more interesting somehow.

Yeah. And that's what I loved about Donald's book. I did his online webinar. I didn't do any certification, but, you know, it was, it was so clear, like he laid it out and I'm like, Yeah, that makes total sense. Why do people not do more of that, right? Like, and why is it all about— I think from a marketing standpoint, small businesses look at like, I need to tell them more about me, like what I do, how good I am, what experience I have, you know, the features, the bells, the whistles. But to your point and Miller's point is that it's not about you. It's about them. And I'll go a step further. I've talked about this on the program a lot and I talk about it in my book, Profit First for Creatives, that the biggest challenge business owners have is truly understanding their, the, the problem that they fix, right? And, uh, because if you don't get that right, um, nothing else is easy. Uh, and when you get it right, it doesn't make it easier, it just makes it, uh, much more clear the path forward.

Right, totally. Yeah, yeah, it does make— in the sense that it gives you guidance for what you're doing next in every single category. I mean, like, you can, um, for when you understand the problem, then you know how to sell better. Like, you know how, uh, to— like, each of the marketing assets you're thinking about creating, every email gets easier. Like, every all the successes or all the, like, the benefits. Like, what are the benefits? What are the most impactful benefits? Like, well, if you understand the problem, you know that benefits matter, you know, are more significant and meaningful to people because it's the things that directly relate back to the problem. It's not just like random things you can do. So anyway, I think like it's a great filter for understanding what's important and what's not. And it's at least marketing and sales copy. In conversations. It's like, does it tie back to the core problem that they actually care about? If not, then it's probably not that important a thing to talk about.

Yes. And it goes beyond marketing. Actually, I think foundationally, it drives the solution you provide.

True. Yes. Right.

Product for sure. Absolutely. And what we found this and I, we've been doing this for 28 years. We've focused on the target market of creative entrepreneurs for 3+ years. But it wasn't until this year that the clouds parted and the sun shined down and we had clarity on this one service offering. Like, it was like, oh, and it was, It was one of those things that we just sat back and were like, how did we miss this? Right? And we figured it out by going and talking to the clients. I mean, and that, and listening, like, it's not, okay, this is how I'm interpreting from, I think existing businesses get caught in this trap of what they do, right? So you could say, well, I help people with marketing messaging and branding using the StoryBrand framework. Okay. That's awesome. That's a clarity that a lot of businesses don't have. But if you approach your clients and listen to your clients, and that's all. So, so that's the only filter you look at it from, right? You, you, you miss some things, right? Sure. And for, for us, it was what we, what we figured out was what they were asking for was consistent. Like we saw this pattern and it's like, well, yeah, of course, that's the answer to the service. But we were caught up in looking at the problem from our perspective. And I find that fascinating because it's exactly what Miller's talking about. Like you have to flip your perspective to that of the customer.

It's really freaking hard to do. Um, yeah, I think it's like, it's like you, you're, you get in the zone and you think, oh, I got it. I know the framework, therefore I'm doing it. And it's like, hmm, not necessarily. Like even I, like, all I do this for, I've done this for 8 years. I'll still look at my stuff and be like, huh, I did it again. I friggin did it again. I made it about me or, um, I assumed something, you know, I, I'm thinking from my perspective instead of just like putting myself in their shoes. And like you said, like you're doing the hard work of actually having those conversations. And then the next layer of hard work is listening and assuming that you don't know the right answer. Yes. You know, you can easily read into what somebody is saying, what you also just want to hear.

Confirmation bias, right? You fit it to what they're saying. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So what you described with the StoryBrand, it sounded like they brought some productization and pricing to the table. Um, had you done any work on that in your business before then?

You know, really, no. I, I think I had gone into— it was mainly a reactive freelance business until that point where I was like, hey, you need a presentate, a slide deck to sell, help you sell something? I'll take a stab at that. Sure, pay me $500. You know, 38 meetings later, it's like, oh gosh. It's still not working out. And so, or, you know, simple things, you know, a lot of, like I said, a lot of reactive stuff. And StoryBrand was the first time where it's like, huh, kind of gave me an on-ramp to a more stable approach to, you know, services that people already want are pretty well defined. And then from there, I've, I've kind of tweaked them, made them my own, added in additional layers. Um, put them into a sequence of like, um, hey, we come for a small discovery, and then there's, um, you know, an initial package where we're going to solve kind of the main things we know, you know, you need. You're going to get a roadmap that's kind of like, oh, we could also do these things, and then yeah, if you want us to help you with that, we can do that stuff too. And so more recurring stuff on the back end. So kind of use that as a kickstart to build the business. And, um, honestly, I know a lot of people that just continue to sell kind of just the basic core packages over and over and over to folks. And, um, but I would say right now it's a, it's a component of what we do. It's not the only thing we sell. And so, um, yeah.

Yeah. I, I, I think a lot of creative businesses struggle because they get caught in the, uh, custom project work, right? It, it, it's like everything's different. Everything is a lot of time to, you know, because you're doing it custom. But if this is the way I kind of describe it, in what we do, 80 to 90% of what we do would be the same regardless of the target market. That we, we picked, right? There's only 10, 20, maybe 30% that's, that's really custom to an industry. But that, that 10 to 20% is all the value, right? Because, because the, the client, the customer does not understand or value the 80%, right? And so I think creatives kind of get stuck in this, like, I've got to create the 100% every time when really you only need to do 10, 20, 30% every time.

Yeah, that's good. I hear you and I'm like, man, that would be great. You know, I'm probably still in that position of trying to figure out exactly where we can, what is all the same stuff so I could identify with those creatives, man. I mean, 8 years into this very stable and healthy business and still struggling and working through that stuff. And so, um, that's on my mind a lot is like, okay, well, how can we templatize discovery? How can we templatize, um, the first elements of these things? Um, and then where are the sections that are really unique and challenging, uh, not challenging, but really unique to this industry or this client. So yeah, it's a continual work in progress there.

It is. But I think going back to our earlier conversation, when you're real clear on the problem you're solving, and that includes who you're solving it for, right? That answers a lot of those productization questions because, okay, for example, if you're talking about websites, okay. If you're doing websites for speakers, you know, professional speakers, there's going to be a lot of commonality in what they need, right? Sure. And that would allow you to build that 80% that we're talking about. But if you said, I do websites for anybody, that goes out the window, right? Because now that 80% doesn't exist. Yep. Yeah. And so it's really, to me, it's really about getting really dialed in on who you're solving a problem for and what that problem is, because then it becomes repeatable, right? Not everybody is the same. Not every client's the same, but there's a lot of commonalities.

Yes. And I would say, um, yeah, I'm tracking. I think I'm tracking a little bit more with you now. And I would say we don't, I don't have like a niche that's super defined. Um, it has felt a little arbitrary in the past, despite having read Mike Michalowicz's Pumpkin Plan and thought through all that stuff. It's felt a little bit arbitrary for me to just say, I'm, we're going to go on this. So, um, the layers that we've gotten to, as deep as I've gotten so far is B2B services and tech companies that are between $1 and $5 million and looking to grow more, don't have an internal marketing person, and are, um, sell something complex, expensive, or potentially confusing. So that has been some layers that's been really helpful. And, and we have seen a ton of commonality between most of those people, you know, where, yeah, it's like, okay, the website's probably gonna look and feel a little bit like this. Our messaging playbook that we build out, it's have these components and that's pretty standardized and templatized. So anyway, yeah. So even with, even though it's not like just for public speakers who want to speak on TED, you know, or something like that. Yeah. Even that's been helpful.

I think, I think the, the, the way we've been taught is, you know, in school or from marketing gurus, when you're defining a target market, it's describing it the way you described it. And it's like its size, its industry, maybe its employee count, length of business, revenue, whatever. But there's also the ability to look at it from the more of the psychographic angle, right? And saying, okay, this is, This is what this person looks like that's buying it. And they may show up in different places, but they have this common desire. You mentioned The Pumpkin Plan, which is a brilliant book by Mike. And for the listeners who haven't read it, I recommend it. But essentially, as I recall, because it's been several years since I read it, it's, you know, if you have a pumpkin patch, rather than trying to make all the pumpkins grow well. You, you focus your efforts on the pumpkin that you want to grow and you feed it and nurture it, et cetera, et cetera. And applying that to your customers and saying, okay, who are your best customers? And then feeding and watering them and they will help you attract more that are like them.

Yeah.

When, when did I get that right?

Yeah. And I think another big part of it is literally pruning off the other, the other pumpkins that are not the one pumpkin that you really want to grow, you know, so say no to clients that you don't want to have so you can build the one that you do want.

Yes. And, and when we first started that, we tried to implement that as, as, you know, any serial entrepreneur will do, they'll, they'll, they find the shiny objects and are like, oh, well, let's try this. Yeah. The problem we ran into was that I, there was zero commonality that I could see in our VIP clients, right? They were all very different. And I think, I think the, and maybe it's in the book and I just missed it. But if you overlay that concept onto the idea that we've already been talking about of identifying clearly the person that you're solving a problem for and having clarity about what that problem is, that works brilliantly because then you're only focusing on them. And to your, to your point, you're getting rid of the ones that, that don't. And, and that oftentimes feels scary. Right? It's like, well, but I'm telling a lot of people no. And yes, that is exactly what you're doing.

Yeah. By design.

Yeah. Yeah. And did you struggle with the no?

Like pruning? Yeah. I mean, I still do. I would say, you know, we're probably 30% pumpkin planned. You know, I think like we could probably, we got probably another 70% we could to really, uh, hone in and get super clear on. But so far, this is as niched down as I felt really comfortable doing. And not that comfort is like the whole point, but at some point it has felt a little bit arbitrary, like, for— to make a decision, all right, my best client over here is an IT company, so therefore all my clients— I'm going to focus my whole business on IT companies, or I've got an occupational health management and medical program, turnkey program provider. I'm like, I guess we're going to do occupational health companies now, you know. It's like, ah, I don't know about that. But like, what are the other common threads? And so for me, it's been this idea of like B2B services and tech that have— where you have something potentially confusing and expensive to sell. Like, those— that has given me a lot of um, you know, common deliverables, common questions, um, common offers and structures that, um, between the people that struggle with that kind of thing, I can, I can talk that language. And, and, um, but for— I've got a buddy that is a web developer, and he was like, all right, I'm gonna pumpkin plant, I'm gonna do it. And he's, he, he's like, okay, I got a home services company that I've worked with in the past, really like them. But that's kind of generic. So I'll just choose garage door opener— opening or garage door companies, residential. Starts a whole new kind of line of his business, pivots into that. And within like a month, he's like, this is going nowhere. This is horrible. Like, this isn't working out. Like, I don't really care about this business or know this business. And so there's a— I'm sure Mike would be able to guide him through to like a better decision, a better path. But I have felt a little bit in the past like I need to, I need to take my time on this and not just like go all in on one that doesn't necessarily feel super great, you know.

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I was rereading Extreme Revenue Growth by Ching. He wrote this very simple book. He was a VC investor in Silicon Valley and he talks about the components that are necessary to have growth, I mean, extreme or otherwise. And it starts with the 3 elements that are key. And I'm going to say this and you're going to say, well, yeah, but the simple truths are the most powerful ones. Like Donald saying, it's not about you, it's about the customer, right? Right. So the first thing is that you have a customer that has a need. And they know about it. That's the second piece. They know about it. And then the third is that they have a willingness and an ability to pay for the solution. Okay, that, that sounds right. But in application, it's, it's a lot more difficult. It's not more complicated, but it's more difficult for, for your friend that, that went into the garage door. Okay, did he perceive that there was a need or was that just one that he thought was easier to get into, right?

Yeah, it's a good question. I think you're, you're on to something there. Or, and also like for him, even the willingness and ability to pay for it. These guys are usually small. It was probably around, it was a little bit after COVID so that the need wasn't really there because everybody was doing everything related to houses at the time. So, right, maybe now actually would be a better a better time. Maybe the need for leads for small, uh, focused business like that would be a little bit more.

But yeah, and, and, and to your point, what you do with the, the complex and expensive sale is they, they know they have a need, right? Because if, if they don't know they have a need, you have to sell them that they have a need. And then you have to sell them on the solution. Right. And that is a huge lift. And most of the time you're not going to be able to do both. Right. So it's, it's focusing on the people that have the need and they know they have a need. We run into this all the time in the accounting space because like we, we can perceive the need that the customer does not perceive. And it's like you're wasting your time. Now, can you do, you know, content around education and awareness and, you know, teach them? Yeah, but that's a long game.

That's not—

Yeah, that's hard. Yeah. I mean, you have to find the person that knows they have a need. Perry Marshall, author of 80/20 Marketing Sales, he calls it the bleeding neck. Like, you know, I need a fix now.

Right, you need a tourniquet.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yes, it's, it's not— or I, I like the other analogy of tooth pain, because if you've ever had tooth pain, you'll do anything to fix it, right? Yeah. And that's what you're looking for. You're looking for that problem because that's easy to sell to, that's easier to market to, but it's not always easy to find, right?

Yeah, yeah, it is interesting. And then figuring out how to package it up and do all that stuff. It's just, that's the hard work of listening to folks and, um, yes, and making some passes and having the guts to be wrong and get out there and just put yourself out and learn. And that's been one of the things that's been so fun about being on my own has been, um, it's okay to fail. Like, it's okay to mess up, and you don't have to— like, getting past the idea that every email, every post, every landing page, every bit of self-promotion you do has to be amazing or perfect. It's like, nah, man, you have lots of opportunities to— and lots of swings and lots of at-bats. Um, some of the best business advice I've ever gotten has been, uh, after I lost my job, a buddy— I was, you know, bummed out about it, like, what is this, what am I going to do, all that. And my friend was like, He said, Josh, just like get over it. You just lost your biggest client. Go get another one. And it was like, huh, that is such a helpful perspective. And one of the reasons like being a creative on my own has been so fun is it's like we, I get to just go get more clients. Like you can just go get more clients, you know?

Right.

Right. And a lot of what you're, a lot of what we're talking about here is like, Having the courage to, um, and the presence of mind to say, all right, we're going to make certain decisions, but also just realize like each one of them on their own isn't going to make or break anything. You know, it's going to be fine and you can learn and improve and grow and control more of, of your future and your income.

Absolutely. And, and I think as entrepreneurs, uh, I know this is the case with myself. And I'm assuming it's the case with you because I've talked to a lot of entrepreneurs and it's been the case with them, that we often get down on ourselves when, when things don't work out the way that we expected them to. And we start framing the conversation of we made the wrong choice, right? We made a bad decision. But this became clear to me when I was starting to lead my, my, my team, my, my leadership team. And explaining it this way, like, no one sets out to make a bad decision. No one, right? And so you make the decision that you think is best with the information that you have at the time. And then if it doesn't work out the way you expected it to, well, that's just data. That's just feedback. Like, okay, it's not a judgment about your decision. Right? It's not a judgment about your decision-making ability. And it's also, if you're thinking about it in terms of getting to the right answer, your point is it's iterative. You don't figure out the answer upfront. Like, that's not the way it works. You've got to go through the reps to get to the correct answer.

Yeah, that's true. And I love that book, uh, The Obstacle Is the Way by Ryan Holiday. Have you ever heard of that?

Uh, maybe. I haven't read it.

It's worth picking up at some point. It's this, a little bit of this idea where, um, the obstacle to the way is the way. It's this Stoic phrase where it's like The way through, the way past something that's in your way is actually through it. That's the thing that's going to get you what you need, uh, to, to know or understand or have experience of to get to the next level. So for, you know, independent entrepreneurs that are struggling for their, you know, responsible for bringing in the dollars and responsible for figuring out the business, it's like it's easy to want to shortcut that by just saying, you know, pay a guru a certain amount to like fix my business or fix me or whatever. Yeah. It's like the hard work is figuring out what it is about us that we need to know and struggling and pushing through that. And, um, and when you, I'm, I am, you know, in a constant process of learning this as an independent creative entrepreneur. Um, that struggle is the thing. Like, that is the way— like, struggling through and figuring out, um, all the things that you, um, you don't necessarily feel like naturally good at. Like, I want to lean away from certain things. Um, pressing in and owning— not that I have to be an expert in everything, but pressing in and owning those, those problems, um, is the path through, you know. And sometimes you come out on the other end of that and you're like, I need to hire Christian and his team to do this stuff for me, right? Or, um, but at least by owning that that is a problem and I am responsible for it, you get the solution even if it is somebody else, you know?

Yeah, I, I think every business owner has to know a lot, a little bit about a lot of things, um, but to your point, it's It's understanding that at the end of the day, it, it's your, your problem and your responsibility to fix. Yes, you can involve others, but, you know, if you don't know enough to know whether they're doing the job, then you failed because they may do the job right. They may do it right. But you have to know enough to be able to make that determination because ultimately it's your responsibility. You know, one of the things that frustrates the hell out of us is, is we don't get this this much anymore. But when we weren't real uber clear on our service offering and the problem we were solving and our marketing and our messaging is you'd end up with people that really just wanted to— they wanted to make their problem our problem. Right. And so like, okay, well, here, we're throwing all this in your lap and you fix it, which is fine. That's, you know, at the time, that's kind of what we thought we did. Right? Right? We thought we fixed their problem.

Yes.

But at the end of the day, until they took ownership of the finances of the business are my responsibility. We never really got traction because at the end of the day, it's kind of like this. If I hired you to do marketing, I'm like, well, Josh, I don't understand that shit, that branding. Like, you fix it, right? You need me to engage with you to help solve that problem and achieve the best outcome, right? You can't do it by yourself. Right. But if I have that attitude of like, well, you fix it. I don't understand that stuff. Well, that's not going to work well. I have to, I have to understand the basics. I have to be able to do what I need to do to help you do your job.

Yeah, exactly. That's a, I mean, that's a big pain point for anybody that has to engage with a business owner to do marketing and probably any area where it's like, if you expect us to solve, quote unquote, solve the problem. We can, you know, there are— we can do this, but it is a, it's a partnership. Like, you got to contribute some as well. You won't be as happy with the results if, like, you're not invested, if you don't care. And you'll be a lot happier if you do, if you are invested and do care.

So yeah, and, and, you know, StoryBrand led us when we, we, you know, the, the term guide that he uses. We actually adopted that into our messaging because I think it's critical. You use the word partner, and we used to lead with that. But the problem with partnership in my mind is it's too easy for them to shift like, okay, we're partners. You do this and I do that, and we're going to, right? Whereas the guide implies that I'm not going to do this for you. I'm going to show you how to get to where you need to be. Right. And service providers get really confused in that because we do things right. We do, we do partner. We do solve the problems. But ultimately, the guide implies that it's not our responsibility. It's your job to go take on the Death Star.

You've got a good point.

You've got to go kill Darth Vader.

Yeah, I've heard it as a— I haven't heard it put quite that way in the past, and I really like that. I think you're right on.

Well, Josh, how do people find Signal Brand Works and learn more about you and what you do?

Yeah, sure. So my favorite, my favorite social channel is LinkedIn. I'm over there a lot, posting there a good bit. Love making new friends over there. That's kind of how I try to think about it is like Everybody is a potential friend. Um, not everybody will be, but everybody is a potential one until they prove otherwise. So love to make new connections and friends over there. Um, it's, uh, just search for Josh Cantrell and then, uh, my website is signalbrandworks.com and no crazy spelling. It's just 3 very simple words put together into with a.com at the end.

So, well, Josh, thank you for your time, your experience share, your candor. I appreciate it. Listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, shoot us a message, tell us what you want to hear, and we'll get rid of Josh. Until then, ta-ta for now.