Turning Storytelling into a Business: William Dickinson

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Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Alpharetta, Georgia. Clearly, I've never been to Alpharetta. Don't even know where it is. Joining me today, Will Dickinson with Visual Campfire. Welcome to the show, Will.

Thanks for having me.

Absolutely. So the first thing that kind of came off the top of my head is the name of your company, Visual Campfire. So how did you come up with that name?

Yeah, I languished about it for some time, to be honest, because the names all matter a lot to me. But like, for me, Like storytelling is kind of a buzzword nowadays, but I think it's a buzzword for a reason. I always loved being a storyteller. I love stewarding other people's stories. And if you really go back to like the genesis of stories, uh, and, and its place in human history, uh, it— a lot of it started around the campfire. It's in our— I believe stories are in our DNA. Like when we were hunter-gatherers, like they would go out and come back and bring stories from the hunt. We have our creation myths and our stories. And then long before written history, we had oral history, and that's all there was, and that was all done in the form of stories. And so if you take that and then you combine that with like the magic you feel when you sit around the campfire and connect with people, I was like, oh, I feel like that really encapsulates like when you steward somebody's story well, it feels like you're sitting around a campfire, like connecting in that real genuine way.

I love that analogy. We have a similar item on our meeting agenda and we call it campfire to discuss client stories. Like, okay, what, what, how did we, how did we improve or enhance the lives of our clients? That's a bullet point on our weekly meeting. Because I believe that community is a, you know, I didn't, I didn't define it this way. Perry Marshall did. He said community is, is a set of agreed on stories. You know, that's what makes a community is that everybody knows the story. Oh, they know the story about Will, the time he, you know, broke his leg when we were on the hike. You know, I mean, like, there's— and I'm like, you know, that's really true. Like, you know, a community at its core has a set of collected stories. So I love the idea of a campfire. Um, so how did you get into this gig?

Oh man, uh, my— so on the subject of being a storyteller, my, my story always challenges my skill at being one because it has been very, very long and windy. So I'll try to make this palatable.

There are no straight lines in nature. Yeah, I, I was thinking that this morning, like, only humans think that there are straight lines. There, there are no straight lines.

So creatively, I, you know, right out of high school, I was fortunate to have a band start doing well. We were a screamo band, uh, you know, and this will age me, this will date me, but like we started to get big on MySpace and— okay, yeah, so you know, I'm almost 40 now, so, um, MySpace was the place to be at the advent of social media and all of that. Uh, and like, no one told me this, but we did a really good job of like grassroots marketing there. We were constantly connecting people, we were constantly sharing our stories, kind of like really being engaging there. And then we, you know, we had a great product, we had great music, like we worked hard, the band was full of really talented people. And so we kind of had that perfect storm of what you needed to break through back then. Started to do that. We did well, um, you know, and then kind of classic musician story, we started to break through and then the band broke up. Um, and, you know, spent— I spent the next, you know, 6 or 7 years getting into trouble trying to recreate that success, all of that, really having nothing to show for it. Uh, and then out of the blue, I was washing dishes in kitchens and stuff, and a buddy called me and was like, hey man, this is gonna sound really weird,, but I was like praying about this and heard you'd be really good at it. Do you want to come intern with me? I was like, absolutely. Um, this sounds great. And so I went and borrowed some clothes from my dad because I had no real person clothes at the time. Yes. And like, uh, showed up to this meeting and pretended like I was a producer. And it turns out I had a knack for it. And so, uh, came on board with that company, started producing commercial work.

And was this audio production or video?

This was commercial video production. Sorry, I kind of fast-forwarded that little important detail.

So did you pick up skills before then, or were you—

No, it's, you know, the, the musician to video producer and filmmaker pipeline is real. Uh, it, it utilizes a lot of similar skill sets, even like your, you know, your nonlinear editors are very similar to your digital audio workspaces, I think is what DAW stands for. So, and then as far as like writing music, sharing stuff, connecting with people there, if you can abstract that into like a visual story, the same ideas are there is like, you gotta have an intro, you gotta have a hook, you gotta have a bridge, kind of like there's an arc to all of it. And so if you can kind of figure out the soft skills, then the rest of it's technical. So I started learning how to be a producer and an editor. So producing is very similar to managing a band and all of that. You're just getting a whole bunch of talent that's probably kind of hard to work with into one room and making them all and keeping them all happy. Yes. You know, that's kind of a joke. I get to work with a lot of people that are really great to work with, but You know, creatives are historically opinionated, as they should be, because their whole life is based on their taste and their perspective.

Yes.

But, you know, so producing was a kind of natural crossover and then editing was too. And then from there, I started to kind of reverse engineer all of the other skill sets. So whether it was lighting, cinematography, directing, any of that. And so within about a year of being a producer and an editor, Um, I also learned all the other skill sets. I kind of became a one-person band where I'd be a guy that you could pack a camera and a drone and a mic into a backpack and drop me anywhere in the world, and I can grab a story. And so you were like a ranger.

You, you were the, the, uh, video ranger. I'm giving you that moniker now.

Oh, I'll take it. I don't— not to be an insult to the real Rangers out there who are probably infinitely more jacked than I am, but Um, yeah, so, you know, I did that for 6 years and was fortunate to lead, um, you know, some of the— some really amazing studios in Oklahoma City. Uh, and then I was in Mexico doing a doc project, um, for a sustainable clothing brand. I picked up what we think was like a little parasite there and then, um, came back and The medicine they gave me when I got back into the States, I had this freak allergic reaction to, and it like straight up crippled me overnight. And so went from doing all of that as a career to losing it all overnight, kind of having to redefine myself, um, and ended up in the startup marketing sector for about 5 years.

So yeah, yeah, wait a second. Okay, so I'm gonna pause for a second. So Was this a permanent disability or was this a temporary disability?

It was unclear. Uh, the original prognosis was it was probably going to be permanent. People that, uh, had that kind of reaction tend to not recover. Um, but it, it was wholly unclear whether or not I was going to recover. Um, and then on what kind of timeline, whether it was going to be years, you know, months, years, decades, whatever.

Right.

And so. Ended up in the startup marketing space for about 5 years. Got to do some cool stuff there. Got to, you know, I ended up doing content licensing and content marketing for one of the bigger VR companies in the world. So like anytime somebody made a VR title, they came to us. And so when BBC did Doctor Who, I got to be the guy that cut the marketing deal for that. You know, we did Predator with FoxNet, um, a lot of other stuff. So did that for a while, uh, and then that company got acquired in, I think it was 2021. Uh, then I was at a health tech startup based out of Austin. Uh, was there until last May, May of 2024, and then I left there. Uh, felt like my health was in a decent enough place. I missed telling stories. I love it. Um, you know, it's one of the things I feel like I'm put on this earth for. And so I, um, bowed out of the startup and launched Visual Campfire in May of 2024 in earnest.

So that had to be, uh, a big leap going from working for others to starting your own gig. What, what was your, your thought process there?

It was, uh, a lot of things. First, how'd I do? Other than skipping over the video production detail, how was that for 10 years of highs and lows? Thank you. Okay, cool. Um, so I mean, it was a big leap. Like, I try not to be a preachy person, but I also live based on a faith. And so I had a faith in God that that's what I was supposed to be doing, that it was going to be okay one way or the other. It's been scary and terrifying and, and great and all of that since then. Uh, but then also, like, I've been fortunate to number two for some really talented entrepreneurs. So, like, I, I've gotten to see people that are really good at what they do. And I was always the guy— they did all the business stuff and I executed on the product. And specifically in a, a video context, you know, we, I'd run some, you know, high-level studios. We'd had, you know, the last studio I was at when I got hurt had Oracle as a client. You know, they were doing stuff all around the world, uh, Fortune 100 clients. Uh, you know, I've been, you know, won at a film festival, got some other awards and all that stuff. So like, I knew I could create the product. And from, you know, the last 5 years of marketing, I knew at least like how to help people give the product legs. And so from there it was like, okay, if I can figure out all the entrepreneurship stuff, then I can, then I can do this myself. And it's been super hard. Obviously being an entrepreneur, it's one of the hardest things I've ever done. Um, but it's, uh, it's been really rewarding. So I think I did have the confidence of like having seen other people do it., and at least been able to like mimic them and, and find people with more experience than me when I'm like falling apart and need some help.

So, so what, what, you know, last year, what, what has been the biggest challenge making that transition to entrepreneur from being number 2 to being number 1?

Yeah, um, oh man, it's a good question. Um, There's been so many of them. I don't quite know what the biggest one is. Um, I would maybe say like my own mindset and mentality. Uh, like I tend to catastrophize and dwell on mistakes, and you can't really do that. Like I remember reading in a newsletter like 8 years ago, like some of the most successful business owners have a short memory for their own failures and their own mistakes. Like, you can't move forward if you're stuck in the past. Like, you've got to analyze the past enough to not repeat your mistakes, right? Obviously, you got to learn. Like, there's got to be some heuristics there. But if you dwell on it, you're screwed, um, because you're gonna make mistakes as an entrepreneur. You're gonna mess up, and, uh, you're gonna have to recover. And so I think one of the biggest challenges has certainly been getting out of that, like, catastrophe spiral that I can go down.

Yeah, I think— yeah, yes, that, that's a, that's an interesting thing to unpack because, um, I, I would say that, that, uh, catastrophizing is, is not typically an entrepreneurial characteristic in the sense that we're usually the opposite. Like, we think everything's going to be great, right? Yeah. But certainly when failure does hit you as an entrepreneur, I think it's easy to slip into that spiral because of the fact that there's not a great support network for entrepreneurs, right? Like, there's not a help group for the most part to go and share your problems. And, you know, speaking about those problems with non-entrepreneurs is not usually very productive because they don't understand from where you're coming. And I guess the difference between that and like if you make a mistake working for someone else, is that you've got someone that can cover your ass, whereas as an entrepreneur, it's all you. I mean, ultimately, everything is your responsibility, whether you delegate that to somebody else or not. It's, it's yours and you own it. And if you're in that spiral where you're doubting yourself and you're, and you're doubting your abilities, Uh, it can get dark quick. I mean, yeah, definitely. Um, I'm gonna throw in an— just because it's in the back of my head, you said I'm gonna go back to scream metal. Now when, when you say scream metal, I'm thinking like Korn. Is that— would that qualify? A little.

Uh, I mean, kind of. They're a bit more like rap-rocky.

Okay. Give me a scream metal band that I would know.

Oh, that's a, that's a good question. So screamo was what I said, which is the intersection of screaming and emo. But like, if you're looking for like a contemporary, you've got like, uh, you know, I guess two bands that come to mind that I still listen to. One is called like Dance Gavin Dance, one's called Driveways. If you love emo, there's that. But like, we played shows with like My Chemical Romance, The Used, Seiyosen, Killswitch Engage, kind of all the— a lot of the big ones from back in the day. So that's where we were at.

Well, so I— none of those ring any bells. So I— the only— now, now one, and I don't know if this fits in the— it's definitely not Scream-O, but I don't know if it's Scream, uh, is, is a band I was turned on to a long time ago from— I don't remember the TV show, but, uh, they were a, a, um, their, their music was in a, a show. And I, after researching it, it was actually in a lot of— they've been in a lot of different, uh, movies too, uh, is a band called Demon Hunter. Have you heard of them?

I think so.

Okay, they're a Christian band, but like, it's not your worship music.

Yeah, yeah, I think I know. I think I'm picking up what you're putting down, and I think it qualifies. All right, for sure.

Um, so back, back to the dark place. I don't know why I'm, I'm all over the place. Um, so I think we connected, uh, on LinkedIn because of the post on my, uh, episode with Bob Bregneris uh, where he was talking about his anxiety attack. Is that, is that right?

I think so. I think that was kind of the what brought it all together because I'd made a post that, again, like, I have a modest-sized audience, but I made a post that did decently well, like, be being vulnerable about like almost checking myself into the ER because I was, uh, I thought I was having heart stuff and I was having like biggest panic attack I'd ever had. And that being a huge turning point in my journey. And that was, I mean, that was only last March, really.

So it was before you launched Visual Campfire?

No, I mean, that's, this would have been like March 2025. So this, okay. Yeah, because like, this was kind of a side hustle sort of thing for a year while I was at the startup. Like, I didn't know if my body could do it. I was still recovering. Like, I'm, you know, when after I got hurt, I dropped to like, I'm 6'1", I dropped to 135 pounds. Holy cow. 137 actually. But I'd been, you know, I'd been in CrossFit. I was 185. I was like, you know, pretty active and big and lost 50 pounds of muscle.

Yeah.

Really everything. I was a stick. And so, you know, I was, I'd been, you know, in long-term rehab for 5 years not knowing if I was going to be able to do it. And then really just got to a point where I was like, I've gotta, I gotta take this risk. I gotta see if I can do it. I gotta see if my body can hold up because I know this is what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm tired of not— like, I was good in my role as a, you know, startup CMO, but like, it's where, when we're operating in our zone of excellence, it's a whole different thing. And I wasn't happy. Just being good. Like, I want— if I'm going to spend my time here doing anything, I want to try to really be great at it. And, and we all have innate gifts. And like, one of mine has been the ability to sit with other people and their stories and bring those to light in a way that like honors them and inspires others and, and potentially does something good in the world. You know, I do a lot of corporate work, so it's not all like feel-good, but even if I can like help a business, like help a business I believe in, connect with new customers and new audiences and tell their story and highlight their team in a way that helps them achieve goals. Like, I'm satisfied with that.

So, so, so this anxiety attack that you're referencing then just happened like 3 months ago.

It was like 3 months ago. Yeah, 3 and a half months ago.

So, and the, the story Bob, uh, shared— I don't know if you listened to the episode, but the, the story he shared was Like, um, it— he didn't know that he was having an anxiety attack. And, and once he diagnosed that, or was diagnosed that with that, um, you know, he, he made the comment that, you know, your body is going to shut you down if you don't, if you don't get out of that anxiety space. Like You're— it's not optional. You're either going to— you're either going to choose to leave the anxious space or your body is going to make you. Did you realize that you were in an anxious space before you had that attack? Hey, listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now.

I mean, I knew I was because I'd taken on a series of incredibly challenging projects., but I didn't know, like, how it's like when you're in a storm, like you could see the storm and you know it, but you don't always know, like, if you got a leak somewhere. And so I knew I was in the storm, but I didn't quite know that I had a bunch of leaks and that the boat was taking on water. And so that makes any sense.

No, it does. I, it is, it, it's incredibly hard. I don't want to say impossible, but it's incredibly hard to self-diagnose, to really see yourself as you are, you know, getting caught up in your own head. In my experience, it takes others to help you sort through that. I remember like the last time I had anxiety that it actually had physical manifestations was a couple of years ago. And I did identify that I was like, okay, something's wrong because I'm feeling this way, but I wasn't real clear on what was causing it. And It turned out that it was a problem I was trying to solve, but I was terribly unsuccessful at it. And actually, I would say was probably being counterproductive. So I was going backwards in trying to solve this problem. And what I realized is that I had this belief that I couldn't quit. And I don't really know where it comes from, if it was something I learned or it's just part of who I am. I relayed the story about when I became— when I was training to be a private pilot, about halfway through the training, uh, I realized that I didn't want to do this anymore. I, I didn't want to fly. It, it was too stressful to me. I was good at it, but I didn't like it. It was, it was, it to me, it was equating like driving in Dallas rush hour traffic, uh, times 3. Uh, like, you know, it just stresses you out, right?

Yeah.

Um, and I'm like, I knew I wasn't going to do it, but I couldn't quit. And so I, I continued with my training, finished my training, got my license. I took one flight as a private pilot. I took my uncle to Clinton, America. No, Elk City, America. And that's it. I haven't flown in over 2 years since that time. And I tell that story to say, though, but that's the level of I can't quit that I've got in my head, right? And so when I was working on this business problem, even though it was evident that I was not being productive, it was my instinct, my belief was to just hold on to that rope. Don't quit. And it was something that in my entrepreneurial journey had definitely served me well. Like, you know, as an entrepreneur, if you quit easily, you're not going to be successful. It's just the bottom line. And so it worked for me until it didn't. And what I had to do was let go of that rope and let someone else solve the problem. And it wasn't a matter of, you know, I don't think they can do it or I don't trust them to do it. It was that it had been my responsibility and it had been my problem to solve. And it was really hard for me to to turn loose of the rope. And I had this anxiety. I mean, like, I was just miserable. I was irritable. And I'm like, why am I feeling this way? And I couldn't figure it out. But after I worked with my leadership team on this and they said, you know, why don't we let someone else try? And I let go of the rope and I'm like, holy shit, that was what was causing, you know, all of this anxiety, right? Um, now I'm just sharing that story. I don't know if that resonates with you at all.

No, I mean, it totally does. I— ours is very similar in a slightly different context. Like, mine was, I told myself when I started this, I'm gonna say yes to everything that comes my way so that I can— okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you know, in my rational was so I can get my laps back in with the camera, with producing. You know, there's a lot I got better at while I was away, and then there's some stuff that I got worse at, you know, just kind of the, you know, just production habits, processes, SOPs, kind of those things. And, and then even just time out with the camera. And so I was kind of in this idea of I need to do it all and I need to say yes to all of it. So I said yes to some stuff that, um, you know, I don't regret it. Uh, I'm grateful. I needed to learn those lessons, but, uh, ultimately the lesson was that like, you gotta say no. And so I've, uh, been practicing that this year. It's been hard. I just declined something last Friday and I was like, I mean, I, I kind of want that money, right? I really wouldn't mind it. I could do it. I could do a good job at it. But like, that doesn't, you know, I could tell even just like little stuff, like I never want to speak in a disparaging way because like sometimes clients that aren't good clients just aren't good clients for me. That doesn't mean they're not great people or great clients for somebody else. There's just different styles and vibes and kind of all of that. So this potential person could very well be an incredible, well-paying client for somebody else, but the way that they wanted to do things and the way that they communicated and all of that, I was just like, you know what, this is not how I do business and this is not how I work. So I'm gonna say no to this money and I'm gonna recommend them to somebody that I think could do a great job for them and move on. Um, and so, you know, a lot of my anxiety came from saying yes to situations that, again, like, great people, great stuff all around, but like, it wasn't the right thing.

So how did you feel after you told them no?

Um, I— a lot of things. Isn't entrepreneurship like the whole gamut of the human experience where you're like, this is awesome, this is great, holy shit, this is terrifying? Like, I mean, I'm, I'm so good at this, oh my God, I'm so bad at this. Like, uh, and so in some ways I felt good and felt empowered because I am integrating the lessons that I need to. And then in other ways, like, I felt fearful of like, okay, I just missed some money. And then yesterday, another deal closed that is with somebody that I, you know, I gel with really well. We've got, you know, we had a decent-sized successful project together last year that helped exceed the goals for the project. So they're a great fit. And, and then ultimately, like, I can— until I scale my business, I'm pretty core to everything that we do. Uh, so that means that when my attention's diverted elsewhere, it's not, you know, where it needs to be. So I've got enough projects in the pipeline to, you know, hit my, my goals this quarter, uh, and it's with people that I want You know, if I could wave a magic wand and get 10 more of them, I would. Uh, and so, cause that's something they don't tell you is like, if you say yes to a bunch of your non-ideal clients, you're probably going to get more of those. So you got to start saying yes to your ideal clients. And if you don't have the emotional or creative or even just like physical bandwidth for it, uh, and you don't bring, you know, your A+ game to that, like you may not. Be attracting the right people. So yeah, it felt good after that other job we did especially.

Yeah, I would say as an entrepreneur, one that is passionate about what they do, that is a creative and driven by passion, which is usually some form of helping others, if you don't know how to say no, Let me phrase it this way. I think the ability to say no is one of the most powerful lessons you can learn. It's funny that when I started my business, I actually bought a franchise. There were accounting franchises, 3 at the time. I don't think any exist anymore. But I remember during the training, the trainer who was a franchisee, someone had asked about, well, what if we change this? And he said, every time you change the process, you're taking money out of your pocket. So just do this and do it 100 times, right? And somewhere along the way, I forgot that lesson, like, and I got way spread out doing way too many different things for way too many different people. To the point where we actually had to intentionally shrink about 9 or 10 years ago, maybe somewhere in there. And we had to shrink the business 20%. We had to let things go, sell things, like just, you know, and as an entrepreneur, that felt awful, like, you know, going backwards. But I had built this unstable foundation, right? And when we retooled, it was like, okay, we're going to do this one thing and that's it. And we have kind of expanded it a little bit and then we've narrowed it a little bit. But I think what your experience is one that we all experience probably multiple times. And the better we can get at saying no and being very clear on what it is that we want to do and that we're good at and that solves a problem and is worth money, the better off we're going to be.

Absolutely. That's been the, the panic attack-inducing lesson that I've been learning most certainly and still going through it, right? Like when I started Campfire was like, well, I've got all this marketing experience, like maybe we do, you know, maybe it's video plus we do all the other marketing stuff, all the ads, all this, that, and the other. Um, and in reality, the video stuff is what keeps people coming back. I mean, I love deploying, you know, I love being a part of people's ads deployment. This is kind of like a self-brag, but it fits within the story, so I'll drop it. But like, you know, we just I had an agency hire me to make a bunch of video ads for their client. Uh, and this was the first time ever in the client's history that they hit a waitlist for enrollment for their school district because the, uh, ad deployments did so well. Um, so do I necessarily need to be the person managing all of that? Probably not. It's looking like I need to be the person that like conceptualizes and executes on the creative., and connects with the stories that we believe are going to resonate with people and, and help with the strategy there, and then let other people do that. So I'm, you know, I'm in the midst of also kind of redefining my business and saying maybe I just need to be video production only. Uh, you know, I'll do, you know, I'll probably have like a, you know, a little consultancy on the side. Like, I have some startups that I help with their fundraising stories and and their decks and all that fun stuff. And, and I enjoy it. Uh, and it's nice having some work that doesn't involve my physical labor. 'Cause like when you're on set, uh, you know, and you, I can hire for all of that stuff, but that cuts into margins and I like doing it and all of that. But like when you're on set, it's very physical. And I know more than anybody, if you get hurt, you're screwed. Like, uh, my cinematographer, broke his foot and he's gonna have to get surgery and it's like, it's a scary thing for him. And so I'm gonna move him into an editing position for me for a while to, you know, he's, he's, he's great at that. And, but like, so it's nice kind of as an entrepreneur too, you have to be thinking like, okay, how, how is this sustainable? Like 1 year from now, 2 years from now, 10 years from now, 20 years from now. Um, you know, and the AI conversation's a whole other can of worms, but I think just like, mechanically, I'm in the process of, okay, I need to have Campfire be solely focused on creating people's stories, telling those and doing that through video, and then figure out, okay, where do I, you know, how do I keep monetizing some of the marketing background in a way that I can just do computer work and have some revenue streams there? But from an entity perspective, it seems like a lack of focus there has not been good for my business.

It never is. And, you know, you come from a robust background where you have a lot of skills and you know how they all fit together. And so it's tempting to do things, but just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do something, right? Yeah, that is true. In my book, I talk about the Pareto principle. Are you familiar with it?

Yeah, 80/20.

I think that is one of the largest challenges entrepreneurs, especially solopreneurs, but it affects all entrepreneurs, is— and it really, it goes to the point you're making at the business level, is what are you really good at? What is the 20% of your efforts that produce 80% of your results, or the 20% of your clients that produce 80% of your revenue or profit— maybe not revenue but profit. And as an entrepreneur, you're sitting there, well, you know, you can do it all. You can shoot, you can edit, you can, uh, write copy, you, you can deploy the ads. Like, you, you can do all of this stuff. So what is it that you think you are most valuable at? What, what produces the most value for, for others that you do? Mhm. I'm gonna put you on the spot.

Yeah, I know. Um, I mean, realistically, it's, it's, it's the human element of the story. It is figuring out who on the front end, like, who is this for? Who does this provide value for? And then what part of you and your story is so compelling that when we put that out into the world and get that in front of the right people, it's going to have a multiplier effect. And so that— I don't know how, you know, what, where that like kind of falls into the, the stratification of all of it. But the reality is it is, it does go back to that story component of like, because I really believe in honoring the audience. Like, we are inundated in content. Like, every day we're making millions of decisions on what we're going to consume and, and why. And like, in a world where everyone wants to go viral, like, half the time I'm like, why? Like, just because a million and a half people or a billion people see your stuff, it doesn't always work out. Like, some of my most, uh, like, lucrative LinkedIn posts have had 2 or 3 people see them, but the right person saw it and it turned into the biggest deal I've had all year. And so for me, yeah, I think the thing that I'm best at is kind of like capturing the messaging and the audience and kind of the magic of the, you know, on people of on one end of it and the need of the people on the other and saying, okay, like where does your unique place in the world, your unique solution, your unique perspective or whatever, Where does that intersect with the people that you really want to get this message and, and their pain points and, and their hu— and the things that are going to actually add value to their lives? And let's capture that and put the best of you out into the light in front of the right people and, and let the stories go from there.

So I think that's probably the best— I think that whether you realize it or not, you have just enunciated a very powerful statement, because what you just defined is sorely lacking in the marketplace. Hmm. I, I, I, I really, I really truly believe that. And it's not just, it's not just video, it is marketing in general. And I bag on marketing a lot on this show, and I probably shouldn't because I love our marketing clients and I'm not trying to disparage the industry because there's a lot of very talented people and a lot of people in videography that are talented and it's not about the talent. Yeah, the talent has to be there, but it's a depth of understanding of what problem you're solving and what value you bring to the table. And the way you described it of like understanding their uniqueness and where it intersects with the people that they want to talk to, that's what's missing. Hmm.

That's it. I mean, that's great to hear.

Yeah. I hope, I hope you can, you can lean into that because I really, I think that's where the power. Is. I mean, like, if you're good at that, there is a huge demand for it.

Okay. You know, I mean, and thankfully that's something that I've been fortunate to have results behind, whether it's, you know, fundraising numbers of, hey, like, if we capture this story and put it in front of the people that you want to support you, they're going to want to give, like, you know, they're going to want to participate in this organization because of just how amazing— like, this is something I can brag on. We have a, uh, you know, we have a world-class child advocacy center here in Oklahoma City, and I got to hang out with the team, and I was like, gosh, people, if the world could just see how incredible and passionate, like, all of the staff is, if they could see who these people are behind the scenes, they would be blown away. And so we did an entire piece behind that and it exceeded expectations. And it wasn't the— my work is usually never the be-all end-all because I think that at the end of the day, there's a bunch of people involved in the success of these stories and organizations. But if I can give a window into whatever unique magic they have, then I think it's, uh, it makes people want to participate, um, you know, whether that's volunteering or giving or buying or whatever. And so, um, you know, I've been fortunate the past year and a half to have a lot of those wins under my belt where it's like, let's just show the right— I mean, it sounds reductive, but it's like, show the right stuff to the right people and let them make the choice.

Yeah. And, and with, with a nonprofit, you know, It's— I think it's easier to find the passion behind the organization than it is with a for-profit, you know, I mean, but there are businesses out there that are passion-driven and are not dissimilar to a nonprofit in the sense that they have a passion for helping people and solving their problems. And they have solutions, and you telling that story to help the people that need to hear about the solution is the same thing, right? It just has a business layer, a profit motive on top of it, but the process is the same, right?

Yeah, yeah. And like, I think people get trapped in this idea that like profit is a bad word, or that like being in business is somehow like— I'm gonna kind of like wax poetic, but it's somehow like extractionary or something, when in reality, like, we've all got to eat, we've all got to make money. Like, I do— I think that my dentist should make a great living.

Absolutely.

Absolutely. I really like my teeth. Yes, we should all like our teeth, and, and people should deserve to be able to like live dignified lives providing these services. So like, I don't think profit's a bad word. I don't think making money is a bad word. And like, if I had to choose between a dentist that's really passionate about it and loves what they do and really takes it seriously versus somebody that's just like showing up to make good money, I'm going to take the person that loves it all day, every day. And I use that specifically. I've got a dentist client and it's like, is my, is my dental content going to go viral? Probably not. Like there may be an edge in there that some, you know, does something interesting. But at the end of the day, like, especially in these like high, like cost per click sectors, if you have like organic content that you can run, you know, certain targeted ads to, um, and you have an organic strategy that does decently well within, you know, a confined space. And then you can put that in front of people, let that passion show, and then be like, because, you know, for this one, these people are amazing at, uh, like dealing with dental anxiety. That's one of the things they love. Every one of their staff, like, I got to interview a bunch of their staff to figure out you know, what makes them unique and what's cool about them. And then we cross-reference that against like Google reviews and say like, what are the, you know, what are your kind of highest things there? Because that's where you can find the magic too, is let other people do the talking and we just facilitate the story, right? Like, you know, that you did that with me. I— you helped me figure out something about my story that I didn't know, but once I was prompted, I could articulate. And that's why people come to me. So we do that for other people and like you know, for them, easing dental anxiety is something that they're amazing at. And so it was like, let's lean into that. Like, let's tell stories about people that felt, you know, really either fearful or about coming to the dentist or negative about their smile. And then let's show what it was like after. And that's a no-brainer. And so you can— so kind of back to kind of land that plane, so to speak, is like in profit-driven sectors, there's a lot of people that really love what they do and really care a lot about it. And, and we should want them to be making great money so that they can continue to educate and learn and grow and expand and serve more people and help more people.

Yeah. And I, I would say the bulk of small business owners are that way. You know, corporate America, that's a different story. They don't. I don't, I don't think you could take any publicly traded company of any size, uh, that, that really cares. But that's, that, that's fine. Like, you know, let them do their thing.

I have, yeah, I have strong opinions about scaling because it's like, and I've seen it from the inside and the outside enough to where it's like, I think my like one kind of pushback is like, I think that people inside of those orgs care. I think all companies, I don't know where it is, but I think there's an inflection point where it becomes a machine. And to feed that machine, there has to be sacrifices that, that are, are made to the machine. And oftentimes it is that like extra 10% of caring or that extra, you know, whatever human touch or that extra like, we got to reduce headcount. Because if I don't— and it's really easy to rationalize, right? Because it's like, if you don't make that decision and the company goes under, then all of a sudden everyone else there that depends on you for a paycheck isn't able to do that. So I mean, I think there's just a point of scale in which, yeah, that the machine has to be fed. Um, and, and so I think that's also— as a very small business owner, I think about a lot of like, what kind of business do I run? Do I ever want to be a big agency? I don't think I do because I, I'm, I think I can get everything that I want out of life without having to get to that point of sacrifice. But who knows? This is recorded. So we'll see if I eat my words in years.

No, I, I, it, it, you know, I, I think where, where it could happen unintentionally, like you, you if you're not careful, you could grow to that. But I, I think what you're saying is so important for entrepreneurs to understand, is that the business serves them, not the other way around. And you, you have to be intentional about creating the business that you want. Otherwise, it becomes something that you don't want, and you serve it. And, and that's not where you want to be. Yeah, working, working harder, making less money, and being unfulfilled— that's not what you want.

Yeah, that sounds terrible.

It is, it is. I, I was sitting in a, uh, a room of about 50 entrepreneurs, and Vern Harnish, author of Scaling Up and The Rockefeller Habits, was the speaker, and He asked this group, uh, who all had businesses that, you know, were doing at least $1 million in revenue, and he said, how many of you could cut your business in size radically, maybe by half, and you'd make more money and you'd work less? And a huge percentage of The hands went up, like, but, but so many of us, myself included, get sucked into that illusion of, of growth for growth's sake without really having any destination in mind. And all of a sudden, or over time, uh, it, it becomes this beast you have to sacrifice to. If you You want to continue that analogy? Yes.

Yeah, that makes sense. You know, and you see, that's where I think you see a lot of like well-intentioned people start to lose some of that like humanity that made them well-intentioned in the first place. Because again, there's so many ways that once you're at that size and that scale, it's really easy to rationalize every decision you've got to make to keep growing. And you lose some of that, like, that human touch.

So why, why are you here? Yeah, like, when, when we did the work in our company to restructure about 8 years ago, it was, you know, what is the why of the business and why, why do we exist? I mean, and our why, uh, our mission, if you will, is to enhance the lives of our clients and team. That's it. If we're not doing that, why— we have no business being here. Like, if we're not making people's lives better, then pack up and go home and go do something else somewhere else. Um, and you know, that's got to be something that you come back periodically and touch to say, okay, why are we doing this? Is this serving our purpose? If it's not, get rid of it.

Yeah. And like having that purpose be defined is so important. And it's hard to do. Like it's easy to want to be everything for everybody, especially me, like, you know, recovering people pleaser. And so you and, you know, and we want to, we want to excel and we want to do all of that. That. And so I've just recently kind of, even as you're talking about it, I'm like, okay, could I encapsulate my purpose? Like, my buddy Adam Corey, he's a life coach, business coach, and he's been, he's got this amazing program that's helped me a lot because it's only recently that I've really been able to define it. And like, so when it's like, okay, if I had to come up with it right now, what would it be? And for me, it's, uh, to take amazing stories out of the dark and put them into the light. And that's vague enough and broad enough that it can be your documentary work, you know, on, you know, I've done some work on the Syrian border covering the refugee crisis conflict, you know, back in 2016, I think that was, and all that. But it can also be your enterprise startup that makes these, that has this incredible level of intelligence around the solutions they offer to the market and how those really matter to other people. So like an amazing story. All comes back to, again, to me, like that human element, because I just love getting to like, when you hear brilliant people talk about stuff they're passionate about, it's so cool, right?

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, to your, to your point about people pleasing, your example of telling that prospect no and referring them to somebody else that you thought would be a better fit for them is helping them, you know. And that, that's, that's, that's one of the things that I had to figure out is like I want to help people, but I can't help everybody. Yeah. You know, just in, you know, the limitation of time capacity. Sure. But like, I'm not the right person for everybody. Like, I— and CORE is not the right for everybody. But, you know, I can still help them by pointing them in the right direction or having them gain clarity on what it is that they really need. You know, because a lot of times people don't know what they need. They just have symptoms. And it's like they come to the doctor and I'm like, I've got these symptoms. I don't have enough money in the bank. I can't predict when, you know, the cash flow is going to come in. You know, it's chicken or feathers, or I'm working too much, or I'm not getting enough business. I'm not working enough. You know, those are just symptoms. So, you know, if I can help them diagnose really what their underlying condition is, Even though I can't help them, I've given them value. I've helped them.

I love that. And like, how do you— I have my thoughts, but I don't want to like lead the witness. How do you do that? How do you gain that skill set in your particular sector to even be able to be a guide like that?

Well, mostly it's experience. Yeah. Like, you know, uh, over time, like a physician, like if they present with certain symptoms, you're like, well, it's 10% that it could be this, but 90% of the time it's going to be that, right? Um, but, but I think, I, I think that's the easy part, uh, in, in my mind. It— the, the harder part is getting the patient, if you will, to understand the underlying condition. Like, you're, you're focusing on the wrong things. Like, you're, you, you think it's this, it's not this, it's that.

I think that go— I mean, in a lot of ways, what you're describing is kind of core to the same problem that we, you know, that I shared at the beginning. Mindset's also another big buzzword now that Instagram and TikTok motivation is is huge, but like, is, is mindset. Like you're, you're describing like, hey, I can tell you all this stuff in the world, but if you don't wrap your mind around it in a way that is either, you know, a sense of humility or, you know, self-inquisition or whatever, like it's not gonna matter. You know, you can tell, like a doctor could tell you like, hey, you need to like eat better and go exercise, but unless you actually like do that, and accept that it's not going to happen anyway. So exactly, you answered in some ways exactly what I was expecting, which was the experience component. And then the surprising thing for me was, oh, like, it's more being able to— in, you know, it's being able to communicate, here's actually where you think it is versus where you want it to be. And now you have to take that work back, that inner work back, and integrate that into who you are as person because like maybe some people can do this, but like I can't separate my entrepreneurship journey from like my own mental health journey, you know.

No, they're, they're not separate. And, and, and I mean, that's, that's— I have a whole nother show, uh, called The Chris Project where we, we discuss mental health of entrepreneurs and mindset and, and mental wellness. And, you know, I could go on and on about that, but, you know, the reality is most entrepreneurs, especially men, use the business as a coping mechanism for their mental health, like to keep from having to deal with the self-work. They use the business as a proxy. And it's usually disastrous.

Sounds like it. Yeah. You know, that's where we get into this whole other, like, unpacking of, like, I saw this, this cool, it was like this creative project they do in nature. And it's like basically just like creatives doing a podcast under trees or in forests. And like one of them said, like, the more I heal, the less I want to achieve. And it's not like, not from a, oh, I want to be lazy and not do anything perspective. But it's like, the more I've noticed that too, is like, the more that I heal emotionally and spiritually, the more I have to realize like, oh crap, I was like driven by this affirmation of being like, they're gonna see me and they're gonna be wrong about all the times I was bullied, or this or that or the other. When in reality, like, now it's like, okay, where's my motivation coming from? Because rather than being motivated out of spite or this negative self-worth that I, you know, my, my success or whatever is validated by, uh, you know, the, the projection online or the status of my business or whatever. Like, what, what actually motivates me from a place of like wholeness and fullness rather than like a sense of lack or something?

100%. No, you, you nailed it. Most entrepreneurs start a business to fix themselves without even realizing that's what they're doing. They'll define it in terms of like, I want more freedom, I want more financial reward, I want to get paid for what I do, what I build. They'll say all these things, but in reality, what they're trying to do at the end of the day is fix themselves. They don't realize it. I didn't realize it. I had no— I mean, it took me decades to figure that out.

It's wild. It's a never-ending journey, isn't it?

Oh dude, there's no journey like the entrepreneurial journey. There really isn't. There really isn't. I feel like we can talk for hours, Will. Unfortunately, Unfortunately, we are at time's end.

Copy that. Yeah, just looked up, it's been an hour. That was fast.

It has. So how do people find out more about Visual Campfire and/or Will Dickinson?

Yeah, so right now I'm mainly focused on my personal brand on LinkedIn. So if you look up William Dickinson on LinkedIn, I still have hair in my headshot, so I'm going to update those next week.

I like the bald look.

That's— thank you. It's a sidebar. I mean, people, if— when you're— when you're— here's my message to people: if you're balding and losing your hair, just shave it. I wish I had done it years later or years sooner. People have been— it's— I should have just ripped off that band.

It looks badass. Absolutely.

I appreciate it. So yeah, uh, William Dickinson on LinkedIn, um, the Visual Campfire Instagram and LinkedIn are both uh, sorely neglected at the moment. But, um, it's one thing at a time. And right now, uh, in the age of personal brand, uh, I intend to be, you know, the face of, of Campfire and all of that. And so I figure I want to build out that ecosystem, you know, my own kind of digital space first, and then I'll start, uh, kind of picking up the business pages and stuff sooner. But I really want to have a personal touch.

Um, well, we already determined your moniker. It's the Video Ranger.

The Video Ranger. Yeah, I'll, uh, well, I'm gonna have to carry that one home with me.

So thank you for that.

Uh, yeah, so, uh, LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me now. If you want to see pictures of my cats and my kids and stuff, I've got William Roy Dickinson on Instagram. Um, I take a lot of nature photography. I love doing that, so it's kind of a hobby of mine.

Nice. Well, listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, shoot us a message and tell us what you'd like to hear, and we'll replace Will. Nice. Until then, ta-ta for now.