Unlocking Entrepreneurial Freedom | TJ Murphy

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CEO of Core Group and author Christian Brim interviews industry experts, creative entrepreneurs, and professionals alike who strive to be creative and make money at the same time. Sound like you? Tune in now. It's time for profit. Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Idabel, Oklahoma. Uh, Idabel is an interesting place that, uh, it's a little Dixie, uh, down there in Southeast Oklahoma. Uh, yeah, I'll just leave it at that. I am your host Christian Brim. Joining me today, TJ Murphy of Hite Digital. TJ, welcome to the show.

Christian, it's a pleasure to be here. It's been a long time coming since we chatted over a cocktail. Why did it take so long?

How long? Why did it take so long to get scheduled?

You know, that's all on me. I remember we were scheduled a few months ago and I got asked to play in a charity golf tournament for our local Boys and Girls Club here in Bend. I serve on their board, and I got asked, how'd you shoot play last? Oh, I'm a terrible golfer, but I enjoy it. I, I don't let my ego get in the way of having a good time out there.

So I remember both, both of my brothers at one point in their lives were scratch golfers, and, uh, one of them will not play with me anymore. And the other one, uh, he, he made the comment, he's like, why do you get mad? You're not good enough to be mad.

And I'm like, oh, that's my mentality. I'm like, I got no ego in this game. If I can par one hole, have a good drive, that's winning for me. So yeah.

Yes. So you are with HITE and that is a, I don't wanna say global, but definitely a national firm. How do you fit into that?

Yeah, I mean, we are global in the sense that, you know, our team is located all around the country. We recruit some of the best talent from, you know, everywhere outside of the US. I live here in Bend, Oregon, have some of my team locally here in Oregon, all parts of Latin America as well. And, you know, for me, I joined Hite after running my agency for about 4 years, kind of doing it the hard way, learning how to figure everything out on my own. And after a little bit of coaching and a little bit of checking my ego, I realized you know, there's an easier way to grow and there's an easier way to be able to serve. And that usually involves surrounding yourself with people that are smarter than you and that share some of the same common values. So got introduced to the folks over at HITE and, you know, eventually decided I wanted to, to move in that direction and grow alongside them. So I run our office here in Bend, Oregon, where I'm very fortunate to be able to live with my beautiful wife and our little Boston Terrier puppy. We love it here because we've got all the access to the things that we like to do, which is anything happening out in the great outdoors, skiing, biking, rock climbing.

You described the activities there in Bend and I was like, wow, that's a lot. You can do a lot in Bend.

Yeah. It's kind of nature's playground. We like it here.

So correct me if I'm wrong. So this was when you joined a franchise model?

Correct? Correct.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Were there any other franchises that you looked at?

No. You know, at the time, this was, was kind of a unique opportunity. There wasn't a whole lot of digital marketing franchises out there. You know, the traditional model for a lot of small agencies is to, to either white label or contract out. The fulfillment of their services, which, you know, we dabbled with doing things in-house for a while. We dabbled with some independent contractors and some white label agencies. And, you know, ultimately the value proposition that, that Hite provided, you know, to be able to have an amazing team of specialists in all the areas of marketing from web design and branding to Google Ads and Meta and SEO, but still being able to have all of that internal and control over the strategy and really knowing the people behind the scenes, the people pressing the buttons and pulling the levers. You know, for me, that was the biggest value add at the time. You know, I was still handling a lot of that stuff myself. And so being able to offload that to a team of experts so that I could focus on growth, but also just building stronger relationships with our clients and helping to find new solutions and ways to serve them. That was, that's what I needed at the time, and it served me well.

So were, were you looking for a solution? It kind of sounded like maybe you didn't know you had a problem to solve, or, or—

Yeah, I think I, I knew I had a problem. I didn't quite know exactly what it was, but, you know, like many business owners at one time or another, I was just wearing too many hats in my business. I was the sales, I was the marketing, I was the brand, and I was the the fulfillment at the end of the day, right? And so not being able to continue to scale, I kind of reached a point where I was super profitable because it really was, was just me and a small team of contractors. So I was paying myself well and we were, we were serving our clients well, but my capacity was, was no longer there and I was slowly starting to burn myself out. You know, when you're in the agency world, for that long, at that point, 4 years, like you start to deal with a lot of, a lot of other people's problems on a regular basis. And you're the, you're the one that people are calling to, to come in and put the fires out. And without a team behind you, without the right systems in place, the right processes, it's only a matter of time before that's going to slowly burn you out. So I was down that path for sure.

Yeah, because You know, I think a lot of entrepreneurs start out thinking they're going into business for themselves so that they can control the variables and like, okay, I'm going to work for myself. But what they build ends up being an elaborate job in that it's 100% dependent upon them. And then they're stuck with the time commitment. And I think the sweet spot of entrepreneurship is when you have both the financial freedom and the time freedom. But many get stuck in the financial freedom in the sense that they're making money, but they don't have the time to spend it and enjoy it. Was that kind of what you were bumping up against?

Yeah. You know, for me, when I started the agency, it was my first dipping my toes into entrepreneurship, my first venture. And from the very beginning, I wanted to design a business that maximized my freedom. And, you know, for a time, especially in the early days, we were growing, we were bringing on, you know, a lot of new client opportunities, but I was the one doing it, as we've already talked about. I had the ability to live where I wanted to live. I wasn't tied to, you know, corporate office, living in the big city, which I did for many years prior to starting a venture. So I was realizing that first goal of freedom, being able to choose when and where I worked. But as I continued to grow, as you said, I was trading my time for money, and there's only so much time. And especially as you, you continue to grow, that becomes your most valuable asset. And it took, took some hard, long weeks for me to finally realize that this wasn't sustainable. And I really needed to check my ego and, and learn how to empower others, to let other people do where they shine and where their expertise really are, and remove myself as the bottleneck in the business. And, you know, for a while I was going, going it alone. I didn't have, I didn't have a coach. I didn't have mentors in the agency space. I didn't have a community, a tribe of people that I was growing and learning alongside. And You know, I was also feeling really lonely at the time. I didn't have that same type of camaraderie that existed in other jobs that I've had in the past and sports and, you know, clubs and things that I did throughout high school and college. And I realized that that was an important pillar that, you know, really I needed in my business. And so through kind of checking my ego a little bit, hiring a coach, finding a community, I started to see what the other side could look like. I can see with other agency owners, sit down, talk to them about their businesses, you know, come on to podcasts, learn from, from people that were doing it, that I didn't have to figure it all out on my own. I didn't have to take the hard route. And so part of that was franchising. Part of it was just learning how to be a better leader and surround myself with people that or trying to raise the bar and continue to elevate, but doing it in a way that was intentional and maximizing for freedom.

So would you say since you made that decision to join Haight, has— have you noticed a change in your profitability and your time?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, initially, whenever you're looking at a franchise, you have to realize that you're going to be sacrificing some of that financial surplus, some of that profitability in exchange for, for the systems and the fulfillment in my case. But where we're at today, I mean, prior to franchising, I hadn't taken a vacation fully unplugged in 5+ years. And I guess it was 3 years ago, kind of about a year into being with Hyte and growing my team that I was able to take, you know, a 3-week vacation, completely unplugged, went on a, on a cruise with my parents who are in their 70s now and my little sister, my aunt, my wife, and being able to achieve that goal. That was actually my biggest goal for the year. It was like, you know, profitability, everything else comes second to the ability for TJ to be able to take these 3 weeks off. In July and go on this amazing trip with his family. And having done that now every year since then, I've been able to take longer vacations. But you know, we also do a ton of traveling for, for work where we go to, you know, maybe a conference like we were just down in Cancún attending a marketing conference, spent an extra week after the fact just exploring the Yucatán Peninsula, unplugged for most of that time. And, you know, the business continues to thrive in my absence now. So that's, you know, night and day difference from where it was.

Yeah, I mean, it sounds like you, you've, you've got that sweet spot. Um, so what— I mean, I'm sure you run into colleagues that are in the, in the industry that look at you and say, well, that's, that's great, TJ, that worked out for you, but that wouldn't work for me. Like, what, what do you say to them? Like, I guess what I'm getting at is like, what, what What do you have to change to believe that it's possible?

Yeah, for sure. It's a great question. I mean, first thing I say, I mean, you see me, there's nothing special about, about TJ over here. I, I struggled for years doing it the hard way. And I think the biggest thing is, is that mental game first and foremost, like you have to be able to see where you're limiting yourself before you can do anything to diagnose the problem and make a serious change. Me, I knew I needed to be surrounded by people that were ahead of me that had figured it out. Also people that were kind of similar stage in business as me that I could help guide and teach things that I had learned. And when you have that just constant feedback loop and, you know, new idea kind of people bringing things to you, holding you accountable, pushing you to take that next step and you being comfortable to verbalize and tell other people where you're struggling, where you have found success, and ultimately making that a habit in your life. For me, that's the biggest pathway to freedom is being able to hold yourself accountable by talking to other people and creating that, that tribe that is really looking out for you, but is going to call you out when you need to be. And, and push you in the right direction. So I think the mental game is the biggest thing. Of course there's tools, of course there's, you know, ways of hiring and delegating, but without the mental piece, I think that all becomes secondary.

Yeah, I think you're right. And I think we tend to chase the solution, the, the, the quicker fix, the— what are— whether it's, you know, I see this a lot in marketing where business owners chase the next, you know, quick fix. But it's like, until you address the underlying issue, which is that you don't like where you are and you believe that there is an option. But to your point, I think you spoke to it. You said it a couple of times, is setting your ego aside, like understanding that it's not 100% dependent upon you. It doesn't have to be. Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now.

Yeah, and you're, you know, at least in my case, I, I am not the expert in, in all things, right? And in the beginning, I felt like nobody else could, could do it quite like me or take care of our clients like I could. The clients were buying me. And yeah, ego is the enemy, you know. What I've found since then is Gosh, I don't, I don't know half of what some of the people on my team know about their discipline. They're spending all day focused on that, learning that, staying on top of all the algorithm changes and the latest tools and everything. It's, it's too much for one person to be an expert in all things marketing these days. There's just so much to stay up with.

So, so that begs the question then, what are, what are you personally the expert at? Let me, let me rephrase that. What is the most valuable thing that you do contribute to the business?

Yeah, I mean, for me, it's, it's very focused in community. You know, we, we have clients all around the country, but over the last few years, my focus has been here where I live. We're putting roots down, and, and I'm trying to make an impact here both through the business but also in nonprofit work and helping out and volunteering and, and just being as much as I can, a pillar to the community. So all of that stuff that I'm doing behind the scenes extracurricular-wise is fueling awareness towards Hyatt. It's, it's bringing in client opportunities. And then what my main capacity is in the business is being that, that bridge, helping people to say, okay, I have this problem. I'm reaching out to TJ or an agency. To try to fix this problem. But usually there's, you know, many other things that they're not seeing that might even be more important than this big problem that they've, they've made out. Like, hey, our marketing sucks because we don't do social media or whatever it is. There's likely a lot of other things, both internal within their processes and systems and external, just in terms of how they're being perceived in the community that we can make quick fixes and start to get a good ROI and and have them heading in the right direction. So for me, that's where I really come in and shine, is building that relationship, helping people to see the big picture, where they are now, where they're looking to go, and then building that bridge between the two where our team then comes in and becomes their outsourced marketing department. And, you know, we might start with a certain scope of services, but along the way we're going to find opportunities to help plug other holes and create more value.. And we're always bringing that to the table. We don't want to just be seen as a service provider. We want to be seen as a growth partner and someone that, you know, any business can partner with to grow for the long term.

So do you still do sales?

Yep.

Yep.

I'm still our primary sales engine. So most of my time is spent on that side of things and business development and marketing, as well as getting out there in the community.

Which I would say in 80 or 90% of businesses, that for, for, I mean, at least until you get to several hundred thousand dollars in revenue, um, that's the highest and best use for the owner. Like, I mean, that's, that's what— no one's going to sell it like you are. No one's not going to have the understanding Yeah, I mean, besides that, hiring and managing salespeople is a pain in the ass. So 100%, they're literally the hardest, hardest position in the company to manage. They really are. Okay, so I'm going to pivot here. What do you see as trends in your industry that are gonna have a significant impact, say, the next 18 to 24 months?

You know, for, for what we do, what we deliver service-wise, I mean, there's, there's no ignoring AI, obviously. I mean, when it comes to building websites, designing anything, writing copy, creating add, like, all of this is going to become very easy and automated for anyone with a little bit of tech savviness to be able to do on their own. And I think for us, we can't ignore that, obviously. The difference is, for most business owners that, that we work with, you know, like local service-based companies, even if they have a widget where they can press a button and do it, they still don't have the overall strategy. They don't have the time. They don't have the ability to create synergy across all the different areas of marketing. So for us, we're just positioning, positioning ourselves to continue to do what we do really well, which is be that problem solver, to be that guide to growth and to be able to plug in the right tools, the right systems to create dynamic and some synergy across everything that we're doing from a marketing standpoint. Now, will it become a lot easier for us to deliver and cheaper for us to deliver the actual ad campaign, the website, you know, whatever it is? Absolutely. And so, you know, cost and what we're able to charge, we'll see how that ultimately plays out in the competitive landscape. But the difference maker for us and what I'm definitely hanging, you know, our badge on is just the fact that we're always going to be that growth partner looking for ways to serve and create value and ultimately grow that business, whether it's using a shiny AI tool or something more tried and true and being that connector at the end of the day.

Are you seeing any price pressure in the market with these new tools, like ostensibly making it, easier and cheaper, are you seeing that show up in your customers?

I'm sure it is. We haven't felt it yet. You know, if anything, we've been raising our prices over the last 24 months. So I imagine it will come at some point and it probably is already out there. But, you know, maybe it's just the way that we're pitching our services differently than others, not just kind of a one-trick pony. We're doing your Meta ads or we're just doing your SEO or Google ads, or maybe it is just kind of a little bit of a lag there, but haven't felt that, that major pressure when it comes to pricing at this stage. Do you see— for us, we're able to do a lot more, you know, for our clients, whereas before it, it wouldn't have been feasible with our team structures to deliver that same level of support. And so for now, we're able to even charge more.

For that. Do you see more do-it-yourself in the prospects? Like, well, I don't, I don't need an agency. I've got AI to do this.

I got a, I got a savvy AI nephew, right, who can, who can do it for me. You know, again, it's not something that I've, I've had a bunch of, of cases where I've seen that yet. Um, most of our clientele, local home service business owner, even if they know they could do it, they don't want to. They have a billion other hats that they need to wear. And ultimately their greatest value of their time spent is client-facing, is building culture, is managing—

For them, it's probably sales as well, right?

And sales, absolutely. So to be able to continue to pay a team that's living with these tools and using these tools and staying on top of everything, that's going on, like that's still worth even more than it used to be now to hire an agency or at least somebody savvy. Like, you know, not every business needs an agency. You can hire a contractor that's dedicated to your team and that can be a great route to go as well. It's just finding the opportunities.

Yeah. Okay. So I don't know if you've listened to the show, but I have bagged on marketing agencies a lot. Um, over the course, we get a bad rap for sure, rightfully so. Well, I guess so. I kind of want to dive into that and get your perspective because I've only, I've never owned an agency. I have had clients that were agencies and I worked intimately with them. So I understand certain things about the business, but I'm no, by no means an expert on the industry. I'm more of a consumer from the industry. One of the things you mentioned, Nicaragua, one of the things that shocked me, I mean, just shocked me, was the retention of clients in the industry. I had no idea it was that bad, and it was kind of like just accepted, like, yeah, that's the nature of the business. But to me, what I saw was that That sounds like some kind of disconnect. Like whatever the problem the customer thinks they have, um, or actually has, the agencies as a whole are not fixing the problem. What do you say about that?

Yeah, I mean, I think across the board there's so many agencies of all shapes and sizes out there today. And it's predatory in nature. So, I mean, you, you could be knocking it out of the park for a client, but unless you're doing a great job of articulating and showing that value and building that relationship on a weekly, monthly basis, another agency or a dozen other agencies are always pitching your clients. Cold email, direct message, in-person, cold calling. It's just constant. Barrage. And so I think that's where a lot of agencies are missing opportunities or are really losing or leaving money on the table is just not doing a great job of showing the value that they're creating to building that relationship with the client and making sure that they're continuously, not just in the first month, the first couple months, but over the long term, finding new ways to provide value, more moments of just delight for clients. It doesn't always have to be a new service you're offering, just like sharing your expertise, sharing your knowledge, being knowledgeable about their industry. All of those things are ultimately what build that trust and lead to retention. And we have had clients that have been working with us for 4 or 5 years. I mean, on average, our retention's right around 18, 24 months. And, you know, I think the thing that really cuts into that lifespan the most is when we do get complacent and, and we're not as engaged as we should be with our clients. I think that's the biggest differentiator that an agency can make today is not just being a service provider that's sending an automated monthly report each month. Maybe you're having a monthly check-in call, but How are you continuing to build that relationship and provide value in between?

Yeah, I think, and I see some parallels between what you're describing and in our business, and I guess it's probably true for any professional service that, you know, clients don't always understand the value you create. And what I find fascinating is that some of the things that they really find valuable are like not expected. Like, man, I can't believe that was the thing they hung their hat on. Like, that was the thing they really loved. I mean, like, that's to me simple or like that should be, right? And so a lot of it, I think, is in professional services is aligning expectations. But I also think, you know, I've described modern marketing, the environment, as crackhead energy. And it's like the business owner— and, you know, I hate to blame the victim here, but I think the problem is the business owner, not the agency, because the agency is just selling them what they want, right? At the end of the day, you can't sell somebody what they need. You have to sell them what they want, right? And so if they want crack instead of, you know, a nutritious meal, you sell them the crack instead of the nutritious meal because that's what they're going to pay for. And business owners just run around from provider to provider and strategy to strategy and technique to technique without understanding some basic marketing fundamentals about their own business. Like, they just don't understand some things that they have to understand, such as, you know, who, who, what is the problem that you solve? Okay. And you, you can't use any of your business services to describe it. So in, in your case, it, it would be What are they solving? Well, maybe it's reputation. Maybe they've got a bad reputation on Google reviews and Facebook, and that's what you're solving for them. But you can't describe it in terms of what you do for them. Well, we manage your social media. We, you know, because that's not the way they perceive the problem, right? You have to describe the problem the way they describe the problem. Okay. And once you, once you get that, okay, so I know that the problem that I'm solving is X, then you have a clear understanding of the, the solution that you provide and the value it brings. Um, once you have that defined, which leads you to your target market, like once you, once you have that, then you, you you have your target. So these are the people that I'm looking for. Then the fundamentals of marketing can kick in. So, you know, you look at messaging, you look at the journey, you look at where they're hanging out, you know, like just the marketing 101, right? But until you solve that original question, you're just grasping at straws. And so many businesses do that. Yeah.

Now you're right on multiple points there, I think, Christian. I mean, the first point that you brought up about You know, business owners are like agency owners too. Our clients, they're crackheads. They're chasing that hit, the new shiny object. And, you know, all the time prospects and clients are like, oh, what are we— are we doing this? Like, have you seen this? How are we staying on top of this kind of stuff? And, you know, over the years I've learned that, you know, we're not the right fit for everyone. We can't— we can't serve everyone. If someone wants to chase a rabbit down a hole go for it. But at the end of the day, I tell clients— and it's why we take a slower approach to sales, where, you know, we're going to meet and really understand each other first, both what you're looking for, your business, but also just who, who you are as a person, what your culture is within your company, what you're doing within your community. Like, these are important signals for me to know if we're going to be a good fit to work with someone. And, you know, from there, I'm always very clear about Look, there's a lot of things we can do to be successful. We want to make sure we've got the right foundation, we've got the right fundamentals. I'm always down to look at new toys, new tools, new tricks, new hacks, and we can see how we can bring them into our overall strategy. But if you're going to be an order or shot caller saying, hey, we need to be doing this, we need to be doing that, it's probably not going to be the right fit. And, you know, I think that is where a lot of business owners are. Are losing out on a ton of value. If you're investing all this time in vetting out an agency, onboarding with an agency, starting whatever plan it is that they're putting in place, and then jumping ship after 3 months, you just lost so much value because they were probably just getting to the point where, all right, they've got all the, the foundational bricks laid and now they're going full steam ahead and have kind of filled some of the the holes in your bucket, so to speak. You know, when it comes to marketing, I always use that analogy. We don't want to pour marketing dollars into a leaky bucket. So let's make sure we've got that strong foundation so that I know every dollar I'm going to be spending of your money is bringing up, you know, the most ROI, the right multiple that we're looking for. And then to your point, like when it comes to what is the problem that we're solving, Usually the client doesn't, doesn't really fully understand. Like, well, yeah, I want to hit this revenue goal, or, oh, we, we just need more leads. And it's like, well, do you need more leads? Like, let's look at the lead flow you're getting now. Oh, you're only converting 10% of those? Okay, well, let's dig into that. Is it the sales side? Are these just bad opportunities? Are we targeting the right services that are your most profitable, highest value? Like, until we can get in there with the the lens and put the detective hat on, we don't know just as they don't know what the real problems are.

Yeah. I had an agency client that they were doing all this work and the client came to him and said, well, you know, after like 6 months and they're like, this isn't working. We need to stop. And the agency came back with the report and said, well, These are all the leads that we, we tracked and sent to you. Like, and, uh, like, well, we haven't gotten any leads. Like, what, what do you mean? And, and come to find out, the, the number that it was going to was unattended. No one answered the damn phone.

Oh my gosh.

Right? And, and to your point, like, you know, there's only so much you can do, right? I mean, you, you can't sell it for them. You can't fix their internal processes if they do a shit job and, and, you know, generate bad karma out there because they're, they're doing bad work. There's no— you can't do any of those things.

But I would say in that case though, that is also partly on, on the agency. I mean, how did 6 months go by without anyone picking up on that? Clearly there wasn't a lot of—

no, I, I agree—

dialogue happening, right?

And, you know, I think that if you go to, like, I put it in terms of my business, I can give you all the structure, I can give you all the advice, but at the end of the day, you have to do certain things, right? And I think a lot of business owners approach service providers whether they be marketing or financial, it doesn't matter. It could be legal, whatever.

Yeah, whatever it is.

They have this expectation that I'm just going to throw this ball of crap into your lap and you're going to fix it and I can walk away. And it's like, no, it doesn't work that way, dude. Like, you know, here's what we do, but here's what you've got to do. And part of it is a mindset change, right? Like on their part, like they have to understand that they still have ownership in the outcome of the result. Like, it's— you're not turning that outcome over to me. You're just bringing me alongside to help you achieve that outcome. But ultimately, it's still your responsibility, right? I can't do these things for you. Yeah.

And, you know, ultimately, there's usually a ton of things that just as a growth partner, looking outside of just the marketing lens, where we sit down with the business owner and we create a roadmap to the, the changes that need to happen internally that we can't control. We have nothing that we can do for them in order to make that change that's ultimately going to result in, you know, the revenue goals that they're ultimately trying to achieve. So being able to sit down and, and have that owner hat and say, no, we're hiring this partner to come in and take a lot of this stuff off our plate that we're just not suited to do well and don't have the time for— that marketing, the branding, the online presence, all that kind of stuff— but also that we know is going to be looking at all areas of the business and bringing ideas for us to go and implement and having that relationship, having that trust and that accountability to, to get that stuff done. Because, you know, if that's not there, there's nothing that we can do magically on the marketing side to get them the results that they're looking for. So that's got to be a part of the conversation on both sides.

And I think what's interesting, I think also is marketers tend— and I don't know about you, but a lot of marketers don't have the financial conversation with clients in terms of like, okay, they come to you and they say, well, I want to grow 10% and that's this many dollars. And and you say, okay, well, what is your lifetime value of a customer?

Yeah.

What is your cost, your current cost of acquisition? And the, and the business owner is like, I don't even know what the hell you're talking about.

Usually they have no idea, right?

Yeah. Like, what are you talking about? Like, but, but again, yeah, it's on us to educate them, whether I'm doing it as a financial advisor or you're doing it as a marketing advisor. It's on us to, to explain it to them. But ultimately, it's their responsibility to know that stuff.

Like, you know, because, because if you say not know it, but absolutely got to be able to go and get that information. Absolutely. It's not rocket science. No, you can sit down with a business owner and guide them through. All right, here's how to go into your books. Let's look at some of this information in your CRM. Even if we have to make some guesstimates based on, you know, Google Analytics and other tools in place to say, all right, here's roughly probably what your conversion rate is today. Here's what your average lead value is, your cost per lead, all these things. We can at least set a baseline if they don't have that information.

Yeah. And I think that there's— I've spoken about this a few times. Like, I think there's this gap in the market for most businesses of bridging the marketing to the financial. Like, there's a disconnect. Right? So if you're the marketing agency for one of my clients and I'm the CPA for one of those clients, do they ever talk? Right? Like, is there any communication there? Because it's a very key one. Because if I'm sitting there advising that client, well, you know, your cost of acquisition is X dollars. And you're telling them, well, I think it's going to have to be Y dollars. Okay, we need to get our heads together with the business owner and have that conversation. Like, what does that actually look like if we go forward with Y dollars? Like, what does that do with the cash flow of the business? Exactly. Exactly. But I have never, not once, had an agency owner call me for a client. Never, not once.

Uh, no, and that is, that is actually a good point. I'll say, you know, we, I have spoken maybe with one CPA for one of our clients. We usually have those conversations through the owner, but to your point, you know, if they do have a CPA in place, that's, that's a missed opportunity on our part. We should be developing a relationship and, and getting the information that we need straight from the source rather than through telephone from the business owner's perspective, which sometimes even if they're getting accurate information, it becomes inflated in their head as to what's really happening, or deflated.

Well, and I'll be honest with you, most of the time the business owner isn't having the conversation with the CPA either. You know, it's, it's like they have these, these business goals out there, but they haven't done any more thought into what that looks like from a marketing or a financial standpoint other than, well, I want to grow this much this year. Right? But there's no conversation around, okay, well, do I have to hire more people? Do I have to buy new equipment? Do I have to open another location? You know, and again, what does that do to my cash flow? Like, can I afford to grow that fast? Like, or am I going to have to have some other source of capital, line of credit, or I'm going to put money into the company to fund it? Like, Yeah, those conversations aren't having between the business owner and the CPA.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's one— it's questions we always ask, you know, just in terms of capacity and what success looks like. And okay, well, say we do everything right and that does happen. What then? You know, what is that going to empower you or enable you to do in the business? What kind of challenges might that create if all of a sudden you're getting twice as many opportunities coming through the door each month? Being able to have a plan for that and bringing your CPA.

Do you have somebody to cover the damn sales calls?

Yeah, yeah. Is the phone even getting picked up? Yeah. These are important questions. And that's something that I always try to guide people when they ask me, because sometimes it's like, well, we don't work with your industry. Okay, what should I be looking for? I'm like, well, these are the types of questions that I want to be asked if I'm looking for that kind of support. And it's getting into this stuff like, what does success look like? How are we going to define success in the first place? What is the future goal and how are we going to plan for it? And ultimately make sure that we're not just throwing money into something that could ultimately sink the ship if we're not careful.

Right, right. And you'll notice through this last 10 minutes conversation, we haven't talked any strategy, any tactic. Like, this is completely agnostic as to whether you say, well, I'm going to go to trade shows to generate business, or I'm going to do it through Google Ads, you know, or direct mail. None of that matters. These are fundamental questions that the business owner has to ask.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, whether it's a marketing partner, a coach, a mentor, having someone that, that can guide you through these conversations, these questions to ask yourself. I think every business owner needs to have it. You know, if you're not designing for the future, you're not putting a plan in motion before you hit the big goal, I mean, you're just going to run into a whole world of problems that—

I know I sure did. I mean, my, my whole thing was grow. I, I had no thought beyond that. I mean, yeah, I had to think about like hiring to, to staff that growth, but gave no consideration to any other elements. It was just grow. And, and I never asked myself, why do you want to grow? Like, what, what difference does it make? Like, you know, is there— what happens if you're 50% larger? What does that look like for you? Does that change anything for you?

Yeah. Or, or is it the same? Yeah, I mean, I was chasing that revenue growth for the longest time, and then it was really just within the last couple years I started thinking, I was like, well, no, I don't want to have a bigger agency. I don't need to have millions of dollars in recurring revenue. Like, if we're at this level and this level of profitability with this size team, I'm making great money. I have time freedom. I can really focus on going deep with my team, with our clients. We can create better culture. And ultimately, for me, my values of creating freedom, like, that translates to my team as well. I want them to have lives outside of work and be able to have flexibility in their schedules. And all these things become a lot harder when you're managing a huge team and a huge book of business.

I, I'll never forget the very first Entrepreneurs Organization event that I went. Verne Harnish was the speaker. Uh, he's author of Scaling Up and Rockefeller Habits. He's known as the growth guy, right? Um, and he is a room of about 50 entrepreneurs, and he asked them, he said, how many of you could Cut your revenue in half. And, you know, like in order— in other words, be smaller, cut your revenue in half, make more money and have more time. And 80% of the entrepreneurs raise their hands, right? Because that's the reality that we end up in is we just grow, grow, grow, grow. And then we look back and we're like, holy shit, I'm working more than I was and making less money. And it's like, that doesn't make any sense.

And I've seen it firsthand with a lot of agency owners. They get caught in that trap of growth and then they talk to me and they look at my business and they think, well, how are you able to do all that? Like, how are you paying yourself that much money? You're like a fraction of the size that we are. And I'm like, I mean, I designed it that way. I built it in a way where I could maximize those two things without needing a huge team or a huge book of business.

Yeah, I did not, I did not coin the phrase, and I can't off the top of my head tell you who said it, uh, but I use it all the time. Revenue is vanity, profit is sanity, and cash is king. So yeah, stop chasing those dollars.

It's true in every business.

TJ, uh, how do folks find out more about you if they want to work with you? Or if they just want to see what you're doing in Bend.

Yeah, if they want to check out our travels, talk marketing, talk life, talk business, anything at all, easiest place is just my, my Linktree, tjmurphy.me. That'll take you to all the social medias, my podcast called The Adventurous Entrepreneurs Podcast, and a few other things. I don't know, I keep, keep adding stuff in there, but you'll find everything TJ on there.

Perfect. Listeners will have that link in the show notes. If you like what you heard, please rate the podcast, subscribe to the podcast, or share the podcast, or do all three. If you don't like what you heard, uh, shoot us a message, let us know, and we'll get rid of TJ. Until then, ta-ta for now.