Unlocking the Secrets of Creative Marketing | Tracy Burnett

Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Stockton, California. Not real sure where that is. I think it's in the LA area, but I'm not sure. In any case, welcome. Thanks for listening. Joining me, Dave Valentine with Finch Agency. Dave, welcome to the show.

Happy to be here, Christian.

Yeah, I think I figured— I think what happened with, with this whole shouting out to the individual listeners, I think I subliminally did it because I listened to The Rush Limbaugh Show for decades, and he would always come on and he would always shout out some small station in some obscure market.

There you go.

Yeah. And I think that just subliminally— I don't know how that happened. Anyway, Dave, will you tell the listeners who you are and what you do at Finch?

Yeah. So I'm Dave Valentine. I'm the CEO and co-owner at Finch. We are a performance marketing agency, so think digital advertising. If you're like, man, I was just talking about a product or a service and then all of a sudden an ad showed up for it 4 hours later, you guys are listening to me. We're not listening to you, but I am the guy that makes sure those ads show up for you. Love it. We work with major brands that everybody has heard of and a whole bunch that you haven't. We serve over 100 clients worldwide. With 60 team members. So that is our jam. I love it.

So how long have you been doing this?

Well, specifically marketing. Yeah, specifically with Finch, not that long. I've been in marketing and advertising for 20 years now, which makes me like a dinosaur in the digital space. And, you know, I love disturbing my younger staff when I tell them things like, yeah, I really loved Twitter back when we had to text in our tweets. And they're like, that was a thing? Yeah, it was pre-iPhone, it was pre-smartphone. So that's always a fun one. But I've been at Finch now, I was doing some consulting with them last, started at the end of last July and then bought into the agency at the end of last year and have been helping them grow ever since. And so we are now full quarter into me working here, and, uh, things are going quite well.

Okay, so this is going to take a different tact. So what, what, how long had they been in business before you came to work with them?

They've been around since 2008, so they've been around for quite some time.

Okay, and, and what specifically were you consulting with them about?

Yeah, so interestingly enough, Finch's history has kind of been this— they've been straddling this line between are we a technology company that makes software because that's something they've done in the past that also provides services? Or are we an agency that has technology that enables us to get great results? So one of the things I have in my background, I've owned 10 different companies, exited from 9 of them before I got to Finch. A few of those were, were SaaS products. So I know what that's like. And, you know, basically I came in and started to look at what we were paying for development costs. And I've just had to be an entrepreneur, right, within, within an established company, because it's kind of gotten off the rails. The former founders have been out for a while now.. And there are different people with different visions of how to get this achieved. But basically, my, my charge and the thing that I really sold to the other investors and we all agreed on was, hey, let's get back to profitability. Because the way it's been— hey, I mean, it's been running as an unprofitable firm that's quite large for a while, and almost entirely because we were also building out a software. That cost millions of dollars to build every year, you know? And so, a lot of what I've been doing in this time since the end of December is really helping to streamline cost cuttings and focusing on the 20% of what we do that's really, really profitable. And that includes staff and all sorts of other things as well.

You're just using all of my trigger words. I love that. 20% profitability. So did you, did you, I am assuming you replaced a CEO.

I did.

How did that go? Is he still around? Shearer still around or?

No, he's not. I mean, his, he, that was hard.

That was hard.

Yeah. In part, that was hard for all the reasons that that's hard. One of the things that was challenging is that he, brought me in. He's the reason why I'm at—

Hey, dude, guess what?

Yeah. Yeah. So that was, that was not my favorite scenario. And, you know, he was— we were very friendly.

Yeah.

Up until the point where the investors decided that they were not going to keep funding the software project that he was really spearheading. And he really didn't have any agency experience and I do. And so when I came in and consulted, I was really consulting really on the sales and marketing side because they hadn't figured that out for the agency. And that's something that I'm quite good at is go-to-market strategy. And we started turning the ship around really quickly. And that's part of what led to me coming in full-time, buying in and then coming in and working full-time.

Wow, that's fascinating. So a marketing agency that didn't know how to market itself. I don't think that's an anomaly by any—

It happens all the time.

Yeah, no, it's the shoemaker's kids don't have shoes, right? I totally get that. And I also find it interesting, this comment about technology. So give me a little— because I have some thoughts, but give me a little context here. This was a internally developed app exclusively for Finch clients?

Yeah, so, so that to give greater context here, Christian, I think that, you know, when Finch got started in 2008, it, it was really— it had— it developed a software that was designed to do a specific type of advertising on Google that wasn't available at the time. And they were able to grow quite large from that piece of technology. Essentially, for those who are listening that run Google Ads on a regular basis, in particular for e-commerce items that you can purchase, Performance Max is a type of campaign that you can run in Google. That didn't come out until 2019. Right. Finch created a piece of software that allowed other agencies and brands to run Performance Max campaigns before that was a thing that Google released to everybody. That was what the software was. So when that software went away, all of a sudden it created an identity crisis. What do we do now? And they were a lot larger than they are today. So then they started to make a hard pivot into developing a dashboard that would demonstrate, hey, here's where we're advertising, here's how much we're spending, here are the changes that we're making, you know, here's an AI readout of all the things that we did and why it was significant, and here's why you should keep us around, essentially. And the idea was twofold. One, keep that software and use it for ourselves. Two, try and get other agencies to purchase it as well. There are inherent challenges that come with that. By the way, this is not me speaking ill of the people that came before. They were doing the best they could with a challenging situation, right? Some of it they created for themselves, some of it they inherited, right? Right. And that challenging situation is it's really hard to one, to run one company, let alone two. It's really hard to run an agency, let alone a software startup as well, and it requires a totally different skill set. And you actually need different people on the team that can do various things. So when it comes to the software, right, it's not just about building the software. That is a key element. It's also about taking it to market, right? Well, the people on the team, myself and my new COO, uh, she and I were really the only ones that had cogent go-to-market experience, right? In particular for software companies. And so as we were looking at what was going to happen for the go-to-market, we were seeing what was happening in the agency. She and I just looked at each other and we're like, this thing is not sustainable. Um, and we kind of kept that to ourselves for a time and started to bring it up with the previous leadership. And kind of fell on deaf ears until we had a conversation with the investor group where we highlighted these things in front of the previous leadership team. And it was just stuff that we uncovered and they had— they didn't refute it. They let it lie. And the investors were like, it's time to make a change.

Wow. Okay. So many things here. I think back last year we, uh, were looking at our annual goals and we thought, we think it would be great to have this unifying app for our clients that allowed them one user interface to deal with the multiple points, um, uh, where, where data resides. You know, we use all third-party software, uh, but you know, each of them requires separate login. And so it was like, wouldn't it be great if our clients could just log into one platform and, and do whatever they need to do? And fortunately, we had the, uh, the awareness to say, well, let's just ask before we start, right? And we did client interviews and we didn't lead them. We didn't lead them with our solution. We just asked what their problems were or frustrations were in dealing with us. Like, where are your pain points? What do you not like? And it came up exactly zero times, this solution. That we had envisioned. And so we didn't proceed, right? But I think that's a very valuable point is, you know, are you solving a problem that people are aware of? Like, because if you have to convince them that there's a problem and then sell your solution, it's a slog. It's hard to get to. Whereas if they have a burning problem, tooth extraction pain, like, I want this gone, then you can sell them something, right? Because they're like, I just want this pain gone, right? I don't— right. Um, and your, your point about two different companies, I, I think as companies grow, I, I definitely know that we we experienced this in spades, um, where we were trying to be too many things to too many people. And it, it, it, you know, we never got to the point where we were trying two different industries, two different, you know, actual business models, but, but conceptually it's still the same of like, what, what do you What are you good at? To your point, what's the 20% that we do that actually delivers value that people pay for? And don't worry about the rest of it. And then my last comment is we've struggled with this too. You know, technology in the accounting game is nothing new. I started this company before Intuit existed. It was, it was Quicken. It wasn't even QuickBooks. And so we've seen all of the technology change over the last 25 years in our space. And there's always this question, should we be developing something? Right? And of course, now the tools with AI make development of software potentially even easier, you know, no-code solutions, low-code solutions. But it's always, for me, it's always come back to like, what problem are we trying to fix here? I mean, just because we can do something doesn't mean we should do something. So that's all of my comments about your comments.

Yeah, I think that's such a good example, Christian. Of a trap that's really easy for business owners to fall into when they've found enough success. And enough success is in quotes, right? For some people, that's at $10 million in revenue. For some people, that's at $30 million in revenue. For some people, that's at $3 million. It's— I put enough success in quotes, meaning there's enough profit, right, or there's enough cash that you go, well, We've got the money, right? Why not? Let's go try it. And I think it comes back to that book, The Pumpkin Plan. Oh yeah, yeah, that's really— let's double down on the thing that's going to make us the prize-winning pumpkin. What's the thing that's making us the most cash? What's the thing that's going to help us really make the, the highest profit. Does this add to that in a meaningful way? Do we really understand what we're taking on? Most of the time the answer is we don't really understand what we're taking on. Not because it's not smart people, it's just because we haven't done it before. And to your point too, it's like, how big of a value-add is it to clients? Is it 5%? Is it 10%? So what we did As an example, we were spending about $125,000 a month as a company to build out the software. We're now paying a vendor who's already got a very similar, dare I say better, piece of software that's right off the shelf, $3,500 a month. So massive cost savings, and we have a, a piece of software that effectively does what we're building out to do, but I don't need to take it to market. I don't need to advertise it to people. I don't need to try and sell people on it. We don't need to do bug fixes on it. They do all that for us, and it still enables us to do and represent the clients we represent, still have the same level of transparency that they've come to expect from us, and it has some extra bells and whistles that are pretty fun. So yeah, I think that there's something to Really looking at how much value is this driving for clients and customers and is there somewhere we could better spend our money to get that value?

Well, yeah. And I think that what it boils down to is most business owners don't think or treat their businesses as businesses. Most businesses never get to that million dollar, much less the 3 or 10 or 30. And so it really just becomes an extension of their personality, their skills, you know, and that's it. And it's, it's, I don't say this derisively. It is just a, it's a, you're self-employed and that's fine. I totally fine with that. But if you want to grow, profitably, um, you have to be a business, which a business is not dependent on one person. It operates independently of any one person. There are systems, there are processes. It doesn't matter the size. These are the characteristics of a business. And one of those characteristics that I see just non-existent is this concept of return on investment. And, you know, it's like, okay, if you're gonna spend $1 million, $1.5 million a year in development costs, what is your financial return on that? And if you can't draw the line from point A to point B over some reasonable period of time, then you don't spend the money. Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now.

It's pretty straightforward, but you're right. I think it's interesting, Christian. I looked this up years ago. I don't know if these numbers are still accurate, but years ago I looked up how many businesses in the US get over the million-dollar-a-year mark, and I was shocked to find it's only— yeah, it's 4%. Yeah, it's insane. For agencies, for marketing agencies, it's 1%. So, it's even different niche by niche. Right. And I think it speaks to the challenges that when you do that, I've done it multiple times, it doesn't feel like that big of a deal to me anymore to cross a million. It doesn't feel that big of a deal to cross $5 million. It doesn't feel that big to cross $10. And that number is very small. Sure. And so, it's an interesting evolution personally to go from— I remember in my first business 12 years ago, I was like, "Oh my God, when I make $1 million, that'll be great." And I remember hitting it and it was a moment and I remember feeling great and, you know, it was fantastic. And then it was over. And the next day I had to get up and go to work and do the thing and just keep going. And I do think there's an element to, as we look at business, and to your point, it's like most people don't have a business. They are glorified freelancers. They have traded one boss for 200. They, you know, And that's okay because sometimes there's value outside of just monetary. Sometimes the value is, "I've got free time. I get to do what I want. I get to spend more time with my family." Sometimes the value is, "I feel like I'm doing—" I had a friend who started a coffee shop. She knew she wasn't going to get rich. She was like, "I just want to create a cool space where anybody can come hang out in the community and connect." And that was really her Of course she wanted to pay bills. Of course, of course, of course. She was very profitable. She sold it and she, she was always close to that million-dollar mark but never quite got there. And I think that there's a lot of just understanding what you're doing. Like, that's what I love to say to my staff all the time. There are no rules. Just know what you're doing. Right. And that's really it.

Well, for the, for the people that aren't very good with math, 4%, uh, of businesses that reach $1 million is 20% of 20%. So it, it is, it is part of the Pareto principle in action. It's, it's, you know, that's human behavior and you can't do anything about it. So I think it's, it's being realistic Like, if you want to do that, that's totally fine, but understand what you're up against, and it's going to require most likely something different than you're doing now. Uh, not necessarily more. I'm not suggesting you have to work 120 hours a week. I'm simply saying that the skills that get you to a $500,000 agency, uh, are not the same skills that are going to get you to a million or a $5 million agency. It's, it's completely different. Completely different. Totally. So let's go back to the origin story of Dave, uh, before he had this long hair, um, and the beard. Uh, tell us about your first business.

Yeah, so it was, it was a Facebook and Instagram ad agency back when that was early on in its infancy, and we tried to be all things to all people in that space. We made all of the typical mistakes that you make when you start your first business. I was 25. We, a month or a month and a half before we launched the business, found out that my wife and I were pregnant with our first daughter. Of course. Yes. They ruin your life, Dave.

Kids ruin your life. I'm just telling you that right now. But you know that. You didn't know it then.

Yeah, I've got 3. So, you know, it's— they're wonderfully hard work. Wouldn't trade them for anything, but they're wonderfully hard work. And yeah, so started that first business and basically launched it with a good friend of mine. Didn't know how to get a new client. We knew how to do advertising. We knew how to do marketing, but we didn't know how to get clients. I didn't know how to run a P&L. I didn't know how to— I didn't know any of that stuff. So we were just figuring it out. I ended up having to part buy out my partner who was my closest friend at the time. He did not appreciate that. We're no longer friends, I'm sad to say. And that's kind of been, um, an unfortunate pattern. I think that there's, there's this thing that happens with people where they, they feel like they're close with you and they expect a lot of you even if they don't give a lot back. And then I started to kind of change my thought patterns around a lot of that. So, Christian, one of the things that I did when my brother wanted to work for me and I told him very straight up, I said, look, one of two things are going to happen. You're going to quit or I'm going to fire you. If we can still do Thanksgiving and Christmas, we can still hang out, come work for me. If not, don't do it. Came and worked for me, ended up going through an unexpected divorce. His productivity took a nosedive because that's totally normal. I pretty much figured out and I've talked with other entrepreneurs and business owners about this. If somebody is going through divorce, it's going to take them around 2 years before they get back to where they were. I don't know if you've seen that, Christian, but that—

that— that— I've seen the divorces that took 2 years, but that's a different story.

And so, you know, I ended up having to fire him. But what was interesting about that, Christian, a few years down the line, he and I started a business together. Nice. Because I knew that he was talented and we just had to put him in the right spot, the right situation. So I think that there's a good bit of— as I think about my history, a lot of my history goes back to Being understanding the game that I'm playing. The game that I'm playing is about profit. The game that I'm playing is about business, about getting results for clients and customers. It's not about having everybody that I love be around me, be really excited. It may mean firing them. It may mean taking a pay cut for myself to increase the profit. It may— there's all sorts of things that we do in business that are uncomfortable but are important in order to help the business succeed.. And when you're able to do that, sky's the limit on what you can get as results. But it is, it is a challenge for people when you're like, hey, I love you and I mean that even as I fire you. Yeah, I want you to be well, I want you to succeed. I'll write you a recommendation letter. But I think it's just a part of being an entrepreneur that that's kind of how I think. I'm like, hey, go get some results. And if you can't get them, that's okay. Go do some work somewhere else.

I love it. So, okay, your first partner you had to buy out. Yeah. What do you mean by that, you had to buy him out?

So, I think it goes back to a little bit about what we're talking about, Christian. Like, he really wanted a business where he was the boss. He was the creative side. I was really all the business side. He really loved that. He really wanted to work 35 hours a week. I think that, I mean, like, that was an expressed desire that he had. He enjoyed that. He wanted the work-life balance. And I was— I did— he, he had just gotten married and I had 2 kids, right? And I just was like, dude, I'm playing a different game than you. Yeah, fundamentally, we're just— we want different things. I'm working 60, 70-hour work weeks to keep us progressing. And you don't care. You just want to live a light, easy life. And that's not what business is. So if that's what you want, you need to go find something else. And, you know, he, he came back and wanted X amount of money. And I told him, this is what I'm offering. Basically, he wanted 20% more than what I initially offered. And I told him that he had a deadline and he decided to extend that and ask for more money. And I told him no, and I gave him less. And I said, hey, I took out a loan on the business. If you want to go fulfill the loan, go for it. It's yours. You can take the business with you. And he was like, this is crap. This is crazy. And it was a shrewd move on my part. I'm not going to lie. Also, should have taken the money. So, yeah. Yeah, that is shrewd.

How did you— no, I'm not going to go down that road. I talk to a lot of people that have business partners and my lawyer, my business lawyer, is a good friend of mine for many years, and he describes a business partnership as marriage without sex. And, you know, I don't think people give enough weight to the decision to have partners and certainly don't do enough thought or planning around it unless they've had a bad experience. But I think this euphoria of starting a business and you mentioned you had a skill set and your partner had a skill set and there's this idea that, well, we complement each other and you just get caught up in it and you go. But no conversation around like, well, what does this look like if we get divorced? Right. And, you know, I've seen a lot of situations where they end up in a bad marriage and they don't really know how to get out of it. And unfortunately, both people are, you know, the business is negatively affected because if you're not equally yoked and you're wanting the same thing, then you're just constantly going to have this internal struggle of push and pull.

Absolutely. Yeah. As I've gotten— having had that experience, having run 10 different businesses now, or owned 10 different businesses now in different formats, and this is my 11th, I look for business partners that really are going to match my intensity towards the goal at hand. That's number one. If they don't have the same intensity to achieve the goal, we're— we don't even get out of the starting gate, right? It's not even a conversation. And then number 2 is, do they have a skill set that complements mine? It could be— we can have some overlap for sure. And they need to be able to handle some piece of the business that I'm fundamentally incapable of doing, and vice versa, right? And that very rarely happens at this point in my career. Very rarely do I find business partners that— it happens still, it's happened recently. Very rarely do I find people that can bring something to the table that I can't bring. Very rarely do I find people that have the same level of intensity. It does happen. When it happens, I get excited. And a lot of times what I do at this point, Christian, is I go, hey, can we partner? Can we do some work together on a contract for a while? Because I test those waters. Sure. And you got to date them before you marry them.

You don't just— yeah, bingo. Yeah, bingo. And, and I'll say that I, I've seen a lot of people, entrepreneurs, bring in employees and give them ownership with the idea that they're gonna act like owners and then are shocked when they still act like employees. And it's like, just because you gave them a piece of paper doesn't change anything. I mean, that's it.

You, you have to, to start a business, there's, there's got to be something fundamentally wrong with you. You know, it's, I mean, it's, it's like, I've got a, I've got a buddy that I've known since since high school. And one of his younger brothers actually works with me at Finch now. And he and I were chatting recently and he does ultramarathons. Something's wrong with him. Yeah, something's wrong with him. And I'm just like, dude, there's no— I mean, and his wife will literally tell him like, hey, you got to get out of here. You need to go run 20 miles. And he will. He'll go run 20, 30 miles in a day for kicks and gigs, right? And I'm like, "Dude, there's something wrong with you." And I mean that with love to him and I mean that with love to anybody that's listening because I'm one of you that's like, I mean, 11 businesses now, that's insane. That's bananas. What in the world is wrong with me? And I just love it. I love getting up in the morning. I love doing it. I love taking my dog for a hike at 5:00. This morning, taking my puppy for a hike at 5:00 AM and doing that for a couple hours and coming back and getting after it. That is pure. I mean, I was smiling ear to ear the whole time and I was excited to get back in the office and get to work. And so, I think that there's something about that too and realizing that you need to find other crazy people and employees. Most people on the planet, they don't have that gene.

Now, I say this with It may sound like a joke, but it is all seriousness that I think entrepreneurial people, that it's a medical condition. It's a psychological dysfunction. And I don't mean that in a— like it's negative, but like to have the mindset that functions as an entrepreneur and is successful as an entrepreneur, or requires you to be fundamentally different than everybody else you're around. I mean, it just— you're just not the same, right?

Not at all.

Um, yep. So you, uh, mentioned the Pumpkin Plan. Uh, have you met Mike Michalowicz in person?

No. Okay.

Have you read Profit First? Or other of his books. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. So, talk a little bit about how Profit First has impacted the way you run businesses.

It helped me. I think that one of the things that I struggled with, I had— we didn't talk about this, Christian, but it's worth bringing up at this point. In my early adulthood, I was dual-pathing my life. I was studying marketing and advertising in my teenage years and had an internship to do that. I also had an internship with a student pastor because I thought that that was a route that I was going to take as a professional Christian. I even was a student pastor. I'm ordained. It makes me giggle.

Wait, I gotta pause. I gotta You've coined a phrase now, a professional Christian. I love that. I never— professional Christian. Okay, go ahead.

So I had this intrinsic desire to be profitable and overly generous with people. Could be clients, certainly staff. What Profit First helped me understand in a really meaningful way was that profit led to job security for my staff. Yes. Seems, seems abundantly intuitive at this point in my life. In the moment when I first read it, I was like, oh, and it felt like a no-doubt then too. That being said, It's been the brightest thing that's really shown for me, and it's also changed how we run accounting. Well, we, we started running accounting in a very— in our own form and fashion of how Profit First would dictate it to fit our business needs. And it helps us track those line items very clearly. Hey, look, this card is associated with ads spent. Look at that. This card is associated with only marketing events. Look at that. So we can easily delineate those items. But then the, the most powerful thing was we were always able— I was able to actually pay myself a fair wage for what I was doing for the size company that I had. It has had a positive impact on my family. It's had a positive impact on my staff. And it's allowed us— I mean, COVID hit is a good example. We had sold one company and started a new one in September of 2019, because you don't know that these things are going to happen. So we did $900,000 from September to December of 2019. We're crushing it. New year, we did $700,000 in 2020. And so the good news was, is that I had done Profit First when I sold the first business. I made sure to keep some cash. So when I couldn't take a salary for that year because I needed to pay my people, I needed to pay for the software, I needed to yada yada, it was all fine. So yeah, Profit First has meaningfully changed my life.

For sure. I— that revelation that, you know, you want to be generous and you should be generous, but the idea that you could be generous to a fault in the business sense, and that if you are generous to a fault, the business is no longer going to be there to be generous in the future. I'd also add that to to the necessity of profit is not just your employees, yourself, but also to those that you serve. So like, you know, what good does it do you if you go out of business because you don't make a profit and you can't take care of the customers or clients that you're taking care of, right? I think back, I, shoemaker not having any shoes, In the accounting business, when I first heard Mike speak at an event, an EO event, he had just written that book and I was intrigued. And we first implemented it into the business probably 10 years ago, right after the book came out. I think it's been out 11 years, and it failed miserably. And there were a lot of reasons which I go into in my book about what specifically went wrong. But what it showed me very clearly was we weren't making the amount of money that we should be making And we had some difficult decisions to make that, you know, Profit First isn't going to make those decisions for you, but it's going to tell you you've got a problem. And whether it's Profit First or you develop your own system around it, but having that information to give you feedback to say this isn't working, this is working. You know, uh, danger sign, danger sign, uh, is critical because you— the business grows to a point where you can't keep track of it all in your head, uh, or, or just looking at one bank account and saying like, oh yeah, we got money in there today, we're okay. Um, I, I had a colleague of mine that owns a company and, you know, they got north of $80 million a year in revenue, and they didn't have a controller. And, and the owner was literally trying to keep track of it in his head, and he finally came to the conclusion that he couldn't. I'm like, no shit, I told you that 5 years ago. Like, it's impossible. Like, right, uh, and so he hired a controller and, and things are, are better. But you can't ignore your finances, and, and you can't rely on not having a process around it. I promote Profit First because it's simple and it's proven. But, you know, as a business owner, you have to proactively manage your finances or it's going to bite you in the butt. Amen. Yeah, without question.

Can I get an amen? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, without question, right? Like, it is more complicated than your personal finances. And there are a Yeah, shitload of people that can't balance their own checkbooks. So yes, figure it out. Yeah. Or hire somebody else to figure it out with you.

Yes, very much so. Dave, this has been a very entertaining, fascinating interview. I would like to know how listeners learn more about Finch and you. Great. You're willing to tell me?

You can go to finch.com. And check out the agency. Uh, new agency site is going live at the end of this month, so that'll be fun to have it rebranded and different. Uh, additionally, you can go find me on LinkedIn, Dave Valentine, and then I'm actually pretty active on social media. You can find me on TikTok, Twitter, Instagram, @realdval, R-E-A-L-D-V-A-L. And then, uh, one of the things that I'd love to do, Christian. We will do a free audit for any of your listeners. They can shoot me an email, dave.valentine@finch.com. It's usually a $5,000 charge. We'll do it free of cost. We'll look at your SEO, we'll look at your ad performance, and we always offer that to other people and say, hey, listen, if you don't love it, we'll give you full money-back guarantee on that 5 grand. We've never had anybody offer, you know, complain about it. They're always like, oh my Gosh, this is incredible. This is amazing. So there's a lot of value in it. It takes our team quite a lot of time to put together, but love to offer that to anybody that wants to reach out to me that way.

Well, thank you. We'll have those links in the show notes. Listeners, if you'd like what you heard, please rate the podcast, uh, subscribe to the podcast, share the podcast. If you don't like what you heard, uh, shoot us a message and I'll get rid of Dave. Until then, ta-ta for now.