When it All Falls Apart: Todd Patkin

This is The Chris Project, where we discuss mental wellness, self-awareness, and mindset with entrepreneurs and experts.

Set your perceived ideas and biases aside and let's go on our journey for yourself, for your family, for the world. Welcome to another episode of The Chris Project. I am your host, Christian Brim. Joining me today, Todd Patkin of Auto Parts International. Welcome to the show, Todd.

Thanks, Chris. Glad to be here.

So you're no longer associated with Auto Parts International. Why don't you give us the, the brief version of your involvement?

Well, the company was started by my dad in 1957. I joined the company in 1988. At the time, we had 18 stores. My job was the P&L, so I was responsible for all of the sales, GP, and expenses. We had 2 sales divisions, our 18 stores, and our 10 telemarketers. And I was able to be quite successful. When we sold it, we had 62 stores and the telemarketing division had more than tripled. So I was extremely, extremely successful, but I also had a nervous breakdown at the age of 36, suicidal at the time. So the highest high and the lowest low.

So did you go that entire time with your dad in the business, or were you ever there by yourself?

No, my dad was there the whole time, and my brother joined in '94. My dad and I had a fantastic business relationship.

Well, that's an interesting topic we can delve into— family and business. But, um, okay, so you, you had this nervous breakdown while at the, the company, or after your involvement with the company?

I had the nervous breakdown in the year 2000. And I left the company when we sold it in 2005.

Okay. So looking back, what, what was the, the cause of the nervous breakdown?

Well, I had been working so hard for so long, and then we actually lost a pregnancy, which I found extremely difficult. And then I had actually fractured my foot. I had become addicted to exercise. Chris, exercise is how I dealt with all the stress and And anytime that I was depressed or anything like that. And then I always would have meetings like Tony Robbins. I'd jump off tables and try to get everybody really fired up. And one of the meetings we decided to have at our corporate offices. So our telemarketing and sales teams at the stores could spend time after the meeting with the different department heads, credit, accounts payable, etc. So I jumped off the table, but instead of it being a rugged floor, it was a hardwood— not a hardwood, but a concrete floor. So I fractured my feet and I couldn't work out. And between the lost pregnancy, not being able to work out, I just fell further and further down until I broke.

Was there something else beyond those two things that was like the trigger or the final straw?

I think it's just a situation that you, as you're falling down, it's like the neurons in your brain just start, stop popping like they're supposed to pop and they slow down. And you get to a point where I couldn't even decide when I was at the local hamburger joint, the woman asked me, do I want potato salad or coleslaw? And I literally could not answer that question.

How long was that period? That, that, you know, like from, from the loss of your child to the, the actual dysfunction?

Probably 6 months.

Yeah. How long? Okay, so how did you recover from that? What, what did that look like?

Uh, antidepressants. I believe if you're broken, you can't get out of bed, and you want to kill yourself, you really need to see a psychiatrist and I expect he'll recommend antidepressants. And I'm a firm believer in them.

So was that a difficult choice for you, or were you— like, I can imagine that maybe your wife or others were like worried about you and were encouraging you to seek help. Did you have any resistance around that?

No, I mean, I was broken. I wanted to kill myself, so I would do anything to get better.

And how long was that journey with the professional help and the medication like? Was that like a quick recovery or—

6 weeks. The medicine kicked in and I was back to my old self in 6 weeks.

Okay. So if you're in the—

but, but I didn't see the professionals immediately. You know, it took maybe a month or 5 weeks of feeling like I wanted to die before I saw the professionals. So the whole process was probably 10 weeks, which was just a killer.

I'm going to ask this question because of my own journey with antidepressants. Did you, did you ever feel like there was something underlying that that caused you to Mm, need the antidepressants, like something that, that was beneath the surface that was causing the symptoms.

Well, later on they, uh, diagnosed me as bipolar, and that's a lot of the reason I think I was always so high at work, sky high, flying so high, and then fell so sharply down.

What, uh, if you don't mind sharing, what were the medications that they gave you?

Depakote and Effexor. Depakote is a mood stabilizer and Effexor is an antidepressant.

Did you— were you able to share that with others, like that you were on medication immediately, or was that something that you kind of kept hidden?

No, I'm probably one of the first ones that wanted everybody to know. I share, I had a breakdown, I'm on antidepressants. Pretty much from day one. I wrote my book in 2012, uh, my autobiography. I shared all of that in the book.

So your breakdown happened in what year again?

2000.

Okay, so what, what inspired you to write the book? Like, that, that seems like a long period of time.

Well, I was in the business through 2006, We sold it in 2005. I got out of the business and I decided I was gonna start to work on happiness. And it took me 3 years to write the book. I wanted it to be great. And I really wrote the book because I felt like so many people in life do such dumb stuff. We do dumb things, but we think we're the only ones who do it. And it can really haunt us. I was bullied by a girl in high school. In senior year, and she just ruined my life for one year. And I felt like I got to be the only, you know, man who's bullied by a girl. And when you get older, you realize that's not the case. And I had some other things that I found really embarrassing that I did, and I wanted to share it with the younger people so they realize that we all do this stuff. We all make these mistakes and don't take it so seriously.

I think it's interesting, that timeline, because I, I interviewed somebody on this show, Ken Cox. He was one of the very first episodes, and he was an alcoholic, and he, he got sober, but he still wasn't happy or fulfilled, right, until he found, uh, he actually bought a boxing gym to train with all the other old men until the neighborhood kids started coming in and saying they wanted to learn how to box. And he was like, no, get away, this is, this is for us old guys. Um, and until he actually, uh, allowed them into the club and started teaching them and mentoring them, and, and then he, you know, found purpose and, and fulfillment and happiness. So I think there's this misconception that, you know, just because you've moved away from depression doesn't necessarily mean that you've moved towards fulfillment and happiness. There's kind of an in-between state where you're not really either or. Was that your experience?

Well, I feel that the definition of happiness is when you can truly learn to love yourself just because you exist. Most people feel like they need to constantly succeed. When I get an attaboy from my boss or a raise, then I can be happier. You know, when I buy the right car, I can be happy. So just being happy for who you are. Now, if that was all you did, you'd be terribly bored and wouldn't really feel great about yourself. Of course, you need a purpose. For me now, it's getting out and trying to help as many people learn to be happy as possible. Um, but the first thing I want people to realize is they don't have to constantly achieve to be happy. You can learn to be happy just like you learn how to work out at the gym. I have a 12-step program that teaches people how to be happy.

Is it based upon the, uh, addiction 12-step program or no?

No, no, no, no. Okay. Oh, it's something that I came up with when I had my breakdown. I had I would say to myself, Todd, you've now got more money than you ever thought you'd have. You have an incredible wife, a wonderful son, and you wanted to kill yourself. Something's broken. And I really started to dissect why I was so unhappy. And then I twisted those things around. I turned them around. Now, week 3, for example, is treating yourself harshly. You know, most people say to themselves all day long, I can't believe how fat I am, how stupid I am, what a bad dad I am, what a bad son I am. And that can really affect you. It actually affects you at the cellular level, scientists have found out. So I try to encourage people to be a little less harsh on themselves. Maybe instead of saying, I can't believe how stupid I am, you say, you know what, at work I'm actually pretty smart. That was just a dumb thing, one dumb thing I said. And then also make a list each day of the 10 things you did well.

Did you do any work, um, in that period where you worked with other, uh, coaches or therapists or any other professional in your journey, or was this just self-taught?

Well, Tony Robbins has had a great influence on my life. At 23, he really changed me. I was a negative guy. I thought that I couldn't be successful because I wasn't so great. And I was— I got straight A's, but I wasn't that sociable, and girls didn't like me. So I felt like, you know, I just kind of wasn't that good in general. And Tony Robbins teaches you that the past doesn't equal the future, and, you know, you can change, and you can be great, and you can be solid. And that's when I got onto my real ego trip. I say my first 40 years in life was all about ego, but that drove me to be incredibly successful. And then once I had the breakdown, I really got rid of the ego and now I'm just there to serve.

That's a beautiful statement. Yeah, I think a lot of entrepreneurs are, myself included, start out very ego-driven. And I think that in some ways that may be necessary, like to succeed as a business owner, to, like, believe in yourself, to not listen to doubters, to, you know, see the possible. But to your point, you can achieve that success and then realize you're still not happy because you— I mean, for me, I can't speak for you. I think that the success or the achievement, the striving is essentially unfulfilling because you, you, there's always more, right? There's always more you could do or, um, you know, some, some additional mountain to climb. Um, until you, like you said so eloquently, until you can be satisfied with who you are separate from your, your accomplishments or achievements, um, you, you could— you never get off that wheel, that hamster wheel.

That's where the breakdown helps. I have people who say to me nowadays, Todd, I'd like to be more like you. And I say, well, then have a breakdown. I mean, I, I, as I said, I was really quite successful. When you have a breakdown, you say to yourself, you have it all, and you want to kill yourself. So that obviously isn't working. Constantly, you know, telling yourself how great you are and, you know, lifting up your guys and, you know, being a Tony Robbins every day. And you go in a different direction. You're just too burnt out. You know, I flew right to the sky. I had a gentleman who used to work with business owners and he said, Todd, I've never seen anybody fly so quickly to the heights. So you got so burnt out, you dropped right down. So part of it is I just don't have the energy left in my body to be a crazy egomaniac. And fortunately, I have found a different way to go, and that's to be easier on myself. I got a fortune cookie one day and it said, you grow up the day you learn to laugh at yourself. The first day you learn to just take a good laugh at yourself. So many people, when they make a mistake, they're so harsh on themselves. And I don't. I make mistakes all the time and they really don't bother me. I just kind of laugh at it.

Does that inner critic, that voice telling you that you were stupid or not enough, does that still show up?

Not really. I mean, yeah, sometimes, but maybe once a week instead of 10 times a day.

And so you're just able to deal with it differently than you were before.

Yeah. I mean, I know that I was very successful when I was younger. I've done a lot of philanthropy. I've been very generous with the gift that I got when I sold the company. Now I'm enjoying helping people. One of the things I enjoy the most, Chris, is when most of my family and friends know that if someone's broken and they're going through a breakdown, they can call me and I get them with my favorite doctor, Dr. Mufson, who I think's just the best psychopharmacologist in the world. And within 3 weeks, they're all better. So that gives me so much joy.

I wrote a Substack article on my journey with, uh, SSRIs, which is different than the medication you were on. And I, I've, I've— the, the only time I saw a psychiatrist, she diagnosed me with generalized anxiety disorder, whatever that is. Um, and, but, but what I found, I, I actually came— I, I had been off the medication, medications periodically over, over the, you know, 15 years that I'd been on them. But I finally was able to go off of them entirely earlier this year. And for me, you know, I think everybody's journey is different. For me, it was a crutch to cover up the fact that I did not know how to regulate my own emotion. I, I am a highly emotional person, but as a man growing up, when I grew up, that was not acceptable to me. Like the, the idea that I would feel emotions and cry, I was not comfortable with. And to your point, I mean, like, I thought there was something wrong with me. Which I'm thankful for the medication because it allowed me to deal with a lot of things that I was emotionally unable to deal with. But what I came to the conclusion was through, through looking at my children, one of my daughters suffered from, from similar symptoms and She had tried SSRIs and decided she did not want them. And what— I was inspired by her to try again. And what I realized was that I was now able to, through the work that I had done, be able to handle and regulate my emotions better. I still feel them, but I'm not controlled by them. Which, which was a very different thing than in the past. I would, you know, couldn't control my emotions. I couldn't handle them. And it would, you know, go places I didn't want to go, either whether that was depression or rage or, you know, all of these extreme emotions. Now, I, I, I, I prefer having the feelings versus suppressing them. I don't know if that makes sense.

Yeah, I think it's great that you got off them. You know, we'll see in the future. You know, what happens with a lot of people is when they have extreme stress again, they need to go back on them.

And I'm not saying I wouldn't. I mean, I definitely know what they do and I have that in my quiver. But yeah, I mean, when you feel stressed, Um, you know, we've had lots of psychologists on this, this show. The, the problem is it becomes an existential emotion, and, and it's just like being chased by the saber-toothed tiger. Your brain doesn't understand the difference. It reacts the same. And so it really is a live-or-die response, um, even though out from the outside looking in, you say, well, that's not a life-or-death situation, but it feels like it.

Yeah, no, I understand. I, you know, still have things that happen to me, you know, that stress me out like anybody, of course.

Yeah. And I, I think that as you get older, you, you come to the understanding of what you can't control, right? And, and, you know, health is a perfect example. Like, you, you can't— you can do things to control your health, but ultimately you're not in control of whether you are healthy or not. Um, and being able to accept that, what you can't and what you can control, is, is a key part of being mentally healthy.

I mean, that's absolutely—

I just finished a book, um, by— and he's going to be on the program, uh, in, in 30 days, The author, he wrote the book called Great Leaders Live Like Drug Addicts. And he, he was a drug addict and then got into rehab and started in business and was very successful. But what he noticed was the parallels between what he learned in recovery and what it was to be a good leader. And foundationally, it was, you know, being authentic, not, not hiding behind a mask and trying to present the world what you think the world wants you to be.

That's the one word that most people use about me when they get to know me, is authentic.

Yeah. Yeah. And the second is just what I mentioned, you know, understanding that you can't control the outcomes. You know, there are some things you can control, but ultimately the outcomes are largely beyond your control. And I think trying to control the outcomes and realizing you can't control the outcomes largely is what drives the fear that causes the lack of authenticity, right? So you like to pretend that you are in control or that you know the answers and have the solutions when you don't.

Yeah, no, I agree.

So who is it that you work with primarily? Is it business owners or is it—

I have just started to do more business. Usually it's my 12-week program, and if I'm not coaching, I'm speaking to people. I'd like to speak more, get out, do more public speaking. Right now I'm speaking for different philanthropies I'm involved with. When they have big yearly conferences, I'm, you know, speaking at a breakout session for 50 or 100 people. I do a lot of videos on social media, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook. But I certainly would lie to you if I said that I'm busy all the time. And I certainly would lie to you if I told you I'm doing a speech every month. I'm not doing nearly as many speeches as I'd like to.

So when you do do workshops or speaking, what would you—

I am putting one thing I should tell you. I don't know if you've heard of Udemy, but Udemy is like college on the internet. I'm putting my program up there. And I expect to get a lot of people. They have, believe it or not, a million students and thousands of classes up there.

So when you do your speaking, are you speaking on this 12th 12-step process, or, or what, what would you prefer to speak about?

On the 12-week process. But what's interesting is I put out videos, as I said, over the internet. And when I put out ones on happiness, I'm getting about 400 people. And when I put ones out on business, I'm getting about 1,000 people. So I realize the business ones resonate more.

Why do you think that is?

I think a lot of people are struggling these days, and I have a lot of really unique things that I did in the business.

Give me an example. I'm curious.

Well, for example, if somebody did really well and broke a record, I'd call home and tell their wife and the kids how great they are. They broke a record. When their father comes home, big, you know, give them a big hug and a kiss. If I had someone who was a star and I really needed to nail them and I didn't want them to leave, I'd put off that meeting and I'd immediately send them great tickets to whatever I thought they liked, whether it was the Bruins, the Celtics, the Red Sox. So when they came into my office, they'd be appreciative and, you know, feel, you know, the appreciation and the love. My word is love. And they wouldn't leave. They'd feel great about everything, but they'd take the criticism, you know, in the right frame of mind.

Do, do you think that your 12-week program, is that a self-guided thing or is it better done with a coach or mentor?

No, it's self-guided. People can go on to my website at toddpatkin.com and they can see the videos or they can download the workbook for free. That, that, uh, website's going to change on January 1st, and it's going to be for Udemy students. So prior to January 1st, you can go to the website, see the videos, and download the workbook.

Is there a group or cohort available, like, for people that are working this program to collaborate or commiserate or Not right now. Is that something you envision?

I don't think so. I really don't want to be a coach.

Understood. I, I'm— the reason why I ask is I, I find, you know, that entrepreneurship is not a solo game. Like, if you try to do it yourself, it's very, very difficult. And, you know, kind of your point about the girl that bullied you, you know, realizing that your situation, your story was not unique was helpful. I think being able to share experience with others has been very important to me to be able to say, oh, I'm not the only one that thinks like this or has these thoughts or, feels this way. Um, that's the reason why I asked.

Yeah, that's why I wrote the book. Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to have anybody use the material. It's not like, you know, if they want to make a speech on my book, it's fine with me. Yeah, I'm not hiding it or keeping it just to myself.

So when you, you say, I'm, I'm happy because I'm satisfied with myself. What— unpack that a little. What does that mean?

Well, as I said, when I look at myself, I know that I have a huge heart. I'm always trying to do the right thing. I'm always, in my mind, honest with people. I'm always trying to help people. And I was incredibly successful, so I've got that in my background. I think if I hadn't had that success, maybe I wouldn't feel so great about myself. So is that— yeah, if you have a scorecard, you know, I pretty much check all the boxes.

Well, let me, let me ask a question then. You said pretty definitively that you didn't want to be a coach. Why, why is that?

I don't really have the time or energy to work one-on-one. It doesn't really turn me on that much, to be honest with you. I want to help as many people as I can.

That's fair, that's fair. But you, you feel like you have the, uh, ability to coach, you just don't think that's the best use of your time?

Exactly.

Okay, that's fair enough. I, I think that is one of the things that, you know, when you, when you are trying to look at your impact, um, your legacy maybe would be a good word It's— it is kind of daunting to see all the people out there that need help. Right. And, and how best can you affect the most people for the most good? So it's, it's cool that you have put those limitations on yourself because you're trying to reach them. The most people.

Yeah, and I'd also get really frustrated if someone took my program and I spoke to them, you know, during one of the weeks and I said, you know, how'd it go? And they said, well, to be honest with you, I blew it off this week, I'll do it next week. You know, that would really piss me off. And I'm sure, you know, this is 80/20 rule, I'm sure, you know, more would probably do a poor job than a good job.

Yes, I would agree with that. I mean, I, I've— I first got turned on to the Pareto principle by Perry Marshall, who's an author and marketing guy. And I actually did research on it when I did my own book. And what I find fascinating about it is it's very similar to the bell curve. In the sense that, you know, you take a group of people and some people are going to succeed, some people are going to fail. Most people are just going to be in the middle. And it— the reality is that people can bellyache and moan about them not liking their situation, but most people are not going to do something about it.

Correct.

Yeah. Which, you know, looking at your situation, had you not had the nervous breakdown, you probably wouldn't have done the work.

Yeah. Eventually I would have burnt. I was going so high and, you know, doing so great. I would have— I couldn't continue to do that. I would have burnt and had the breakdown. If you said, well, you know, hypothetically, if you didn't have the breakdown, I'd say You know, forget about hypothetical. I was working so hard, uh, so I was just a madman. So it couldn't have continued.

It was inevitable. Correct. Did you— before that happened, you know, you're in your 30s, did you see any— looking backwards, did you see any places where that had happened prior in your life where you were Like, did the pattern show up after you saw it? It was like, oh, that's, that's what was happening.

Well, I mean, I had probably a minor breakdown in college. I brought a lot of homesickness to college from overnight camp. I brought a ton of perfectionism, and I went to a very good school, Tufts, in Boston. And so I needed to get straight A's in high school. I needed to get straight A's in college. The stress hit me so hard that even though my parents paid for a dormitory room, I pretty much stayed at home all the time. So I got the A's, but it made me crazy. And the only reason I made it through college, I think, is that my dad turned me on to working out at the age of 19. And I've worked out pretty consistently 3 days a week since then, and I just turned 60.

Did your What was your dad's reaction to your nervous breakdown?

I think everybody was, you know, didn't know what to do. They were fearful. My dad was incredible because with my broken feet and the breakdown, they kind of went hand in hand. The feet couldn't get better while I was broken. And I was so upset about it. I had him take me to, you know, 10 different foot doctors. And he was good enough to do that. He was very, very supportive. Um, you know, I think his mother may have had some serious, you know, mental illness as well, but he was great.

So neither of your parents had bipolar disorder, but it was— there was a genetic component?

Yeah, I don't know if she was bipolar, but definitely, you know, suffered from depression.

Yeah, and I, I think you're right. I mean, I, I, I think there is a chemical disposition that, you know, we're born with. And there is a hereditary component. I know in my family there, I mean, definitely has been. And I mean, it doesn't sound like you had this problem, but for me, there was, there was a lot of— I can't use a different word. It was shame around, like, you know, you and I are older, you know, the younger generations don't seem to have that stigma around mental health and mental wellness that we grew up with.

Right. Although what's happening now is there's a rejection for antidepressants nowadays. They're refusing to take them. They're against anything that has anything for their bodies that isn't natural. So that's a big concern in mental health because many people need the pills and they're rejecting them more than any generation before them.

Yeah, I kind of understand where they're coming from. My daughter calls it raw-dogging it. So she does not— she does not drink, she does not smoke, she does not take any medication and kind of I don't know if that's a reaction to—

But how does she feel every day?

Well, I would say generally good. I mean, but, you know—

Raw dogging it sounds like she's pretty— going through a really tough time.

She has, for sure. But she's not at this point. And that's kind of what you were alluding to, that, you know, life is situational. And, you know, you run into those situations that are so stressful that, you know, you may not be able to get by on your own. I mean, and that, you know, that's important to recognize is that, you know—

The other thing is, you know, bipolar is different than just suffering from depression.

Oh, 100%.

So if you do have people out there who are listening who are bipolar, I know quite a few of them who start medicine and stop medicine and start and stop. It's really dangerous to do that when you're bipolar.

Yes, I would agree. And I'd also say I think part of the reaction is that I think there's a general level of distrust in medicine, in pharmacy, that exists with this younger generation that we didn't have. Like, agreed. Yeah. You know, and some of that the industries have brought on themselves, right? They're like, it's not like the distrust is without merit, but you can't really throw out the baby with the bathwater. I mean, you know, you have to, you have to understand that there, there, there are good things as well as bad things. And I, I think, like, my, my uncle, my, my mother's brother, uh, he was diagnosed with schizophrenia in his, uh, 20s. And, uh, he, he was mostly a functioning adult, lived into his 60s, but he was always on medication. And, and he never— you know, there is no cure for it. Um, and I think that's, that's the key to understand, is, is that your, your brain chemistry is permanent. I mean, you can alter it, right, with medication, but like, who you are is who you are. You can't, you know, work out and change it. It's not like a muscle.

Yeah, I agree.

I, I personally, one of the things that, that kind of bothers me, and I'm curious your perspective, Psychiatry and brain chemistry, um, is, is the only part of medicine that really— there, there is no hard and fast diagnosis. It, it's like, it's not like you can do a blood test and figure out what your brain chemistry is, right? Um, you know, it's largely based upon observation. You know, they, they, you know, the psychiatrist talks to you, watches you, you know, figures out, okay, this is what I think is going on with you. But there's a certain element of guesswork when it comes to the human brain.

Like, there is something called the Horschach test for bipolar.

Okay. And, and did you have that assessment done before your breakdown?

Uh, no, no, no. Prior to my breakdown, I didn't feel any stress or depression. Very much. I did in college a bit, but no, it was only after I had a breakdown that I went to the psychiatrist and we did some testing and he said I'm bipolar.

Did you, did you immediately agree with that? I mean, like, or was there some resistance, like, no, that, that's not me?

I'm pretty open to medications. I take, you know, medicine the doctor says. I have a heart problem or cholesterol, or I take a lot of different pills and I'm very comfortable with that.

Okay, so there was no resistance as to, you know, you've got the wrong diagnosis here, Doc?

I really didn't have an issue with it, you know.

Okay, perfect. Well, Todd, I, I will put the links in the, the show notes for your, uh, 12-step— I say 12-step, it's 12-week program. Sorry about that.

Perfect.

Perfect. How do people connect with you if they want to learn more about you speaking or, or whatever you can bring to them?

Uh, they can go to toddpatkin.com, uh, if they want to listen to the videos or download the workbook. If they're interested in my speaking, they can email me. My first initial is T, my last name is Patkin, P-A-T-K-I-N, at 3 initials: T for Todd, G for Gerald, P for Patkin, co for company,.org. Tpatkin@tgbco.org.

Perfect. We'll have those links in the show notes. Thank you, Todd, for your—

thanks, Chris, I really appreciate sharing your experience and, um, helping others. We, we appreciate it. Take care.

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