Why AI Can’t Replace Real Marketing | Rachel Allen

And so we're seeing this real talent gap emerge. As far as marketing trends, we're seeing people tend to really double down on the broadcast method and they're like, oh, this is great. I can make AI, you know, pump out 500 posts a day for me. But then nobody wants to read that.

Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Vernal, Utah. Wonderful name, Vernal. Anyway, thank you for listening to the show. Joining me today, Rachel Allen of Bolt from the Blue Copywriting. Rachel, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for having me.

Absolutely. Okay. We already established you don't know where Bolt from the Blue came from.

I know.

But why did you pick that name?

So, funny enough, I never tell this story, but I did another interview today and told it. So, this must be the day for my deep secret to come out. When I first started my business, I had the worst possible name ever. It was based on a pun. It was The Revolution, but with a W, W-R, like writer. No one ever understood it. It was just absolutely terrible.

But was it funny?

I mean, I thought it was, but at networking events, it just led to a lot of awkward silences and then like, oh, which is not really what I'm going for.

That's not, no, no. Okay. So why did you pick Bold from the Blue?

So I was like angsty about this because I was like, man, this was like terrible. I've built this whole brand. Who am I? What am I doing? And I was trying to think of something that would really encapsulate the feeling of good marketing. And I was sitting in bed one night and it literally just dropped into my head and I was like, oh, It's like a bolt from the blue because it hits you out of nowhere and it changes the way you see everything going forward.

Inception.

Yes, exactly.

Yes. Okay, so I would be curious, you know, copywriting is an industry and a skill that is in flux. How long have you been doing this?

18 years this year.

Okay, so you have enough experience to opine on what is changing, what has changed, I guess specific to LLMs, because I think— I'm not even going to tell you what I think until later. Maybe I will. What have you seen changed and where do you see it headed?

So people ask me about this a lot because there's a lot of flux in the industry. And what I'm seeing is that people who are really good at this are not having problems. People who are kind of okay at this are having a lot of problems with their business. And so we're seeing this real talent gap emerge. As far as marketing trends, we're seeing people tend to really double down on the broadcast method and they're like, oh, this is great. I can make AI, you know, pump out 500 posts a day for me. But then nobody wants to read that, you know? And like, we all get a little bored. The term AI slop has entered everybody's vocabulary for a reason. And so the people who are actually able to show up very much as themselves and know how to leverage these tools without letting the tool do the job for them, they're the ones that are standing out and having the success.

Yes, I think the, Here's an analogy. It's probably not great, but stick with me. At the advent of the power saw, people before that were using hand saws and doing a fine job constructing things. And then the power saw came along and meant that you could do that job in half the time. The saw did not make you a carpenter. Yeah. Right? Now, where that analogy drops off is in the way it's been phrased, because the anxiety of AI, even though it's not artificial intelligence, but that's the moniker they've chosen. That anxiety is pervasive through all professions now. I've got my fellow accountants that are like, oh my God, we're not going to have jobs. The bots are going to do the— you know, they've coined this knowledge, like it's a knowledge disruption because if you had a skill that they can teach a robot to do, that somehow your knowledge is no longer needed. Like, I don't need you to write copy. I have an LLM trained as a copywriter and it can do what you could do. Yeah. Insert any profession. Physician, accountant, architect, whatever. That's not the reality I see. I'm curious, your experience with the technology tools, like as a professional? Because I think a lot of people, that's— they're like, oh, I'll just have AI write it. Yeah. What do you— what is your professional evaluation of the tools as a copywriter?

So I can tell you that people who do say, oh, I'll just have AI write it, then come to me about 6 months later and say, why is my sales funnel dried up? So the tools are, I think the tools are great for what they are designed to do, which is to be a very fancy autocorrect and to tell you what you want to hear and to give you a really quick overview of what a bunch of other people have said. And that is useful in its way, but that's not actually marketing because marketing is about creating relationships with people, even at a distance, even if you never talk to them, you still need to create a relationship and it's about solving problems. So there's, it just by the virtue of how an LLM is designed, it's not a problem solver. It's a solution gatherer. And you can then choose amongst the solutions that it presents to you, whether that makes sense to you or not, if you know enough to think through it. But it's not going to actually like make a strategy for you. It can't really create anything for you because it's just, it's autocorrecting. It's not innovating.

Yes. I think the simplest way to describe this, and I am not a computer scientist, but just my layman's knowledge is, you know, everything in a computer is based upon 1 or 0. Like, yes, and it is— no matter how high you stack the software, it's, uh, reductive in, in, in its thinking. Um, it can't create anything new. It, it, because by definition, just the way it's created, I mean, the way it's made. But my question then is, is a tool in your quiver, how do you use it?

Almost never. I have yet to find something. I use it for research, but other than that, I have yet to find something that I can't do faster or better just in the particular focus of my work. If I do have clients specifically request it, I'll use it like a marketing intern because that's about the level that it can perform at with marketing. It can give you a good first draft. It can bring you a bunch of ideas that you look at and go, oh dear God, no, not that, you know, and then bounce off of to something else. But it has that same sort of spunky optimism that, you know, a senior in college would bring to marketing.

Yeah. And I'm kind of like you. I mean, there are applications that I have built agentically that are, that are not like native LLM where I found it useful. But most of the time, anything that— there's that time gap. It's like, it is, it is more time and frustration for me to teach it, and I can't get consistent results. I might get results once or twice, but like, Every time, no. That it's like, yeah, why bother? Like, and I keep going back to this, like, maybe, maybe it'll be better this time.

Like, yeah, maybe it's like, you know, updated or whatever. And I think people often are— what I've had people say to me is, oh, you must be scared of it, or people in your industry are scared of it. And I'm like, I'm not scared of a robot. I just recognize its limitations. If we go back to your construction metaphor, a saw cannot make you an architect. And sometimes you need somebody to think things through.

And the saw can't be a screwdriver. Exactly. Yeah, I— okay, so let's talk business model. You said that the people that, uh, didn't have strong businesses were the ones that were failing. What, what are the components that make a business strong in your industry?

So the, the one that I always come back to, and it really bums people out because they think it's hard, um, is relationships. I've been through like 6 internet apocalypses now where people— it's something has happened, whether it's the Panda algorithm update or GDPR or whatever, and every time everyone's been like, pack it up, the internet's done, let's go home, you can't make money anymore. And it's just not true. It's just a large change in tactics. And the real— the businesses that I see ride those out with no problem are the ones that have a strong relationship with their audiences and with their colleagues. So that's the core of everything.

I would agree with that. I mean, obviously relationships can't be replaced by any automation. Well, I don't know. Some people that don't have really good relationships might. Yeah. But that's what I've heard. Yeah. End up in psychosis. What it sounds like your business though is more than copywriting. Like that's not. The full value you bring?

Yeah, I, I say I'm a marketing strategist these days. That seems to encapsulate most of what I do. But basically, I work at the intersection of words and strategy. And I really like solving complex problems. Because words are— they're basically technology, right? They're the technology by which ideas and influence spread. And I like coming in and seeing where people have got their technology kind of weird. And then fixing it so their ideas and influence can spread more.

So would— okay, I, I love that. Would you say that, um, because marketing is a, is a funny animal, um, and, and obviously there are lots of components to it, whether it's copyright or design or, or strategy, um, What do you see? So this is kind of my, again, layman's terms of what I see. There's a bunch of people that would never have hired you, right, that, that are going to now use tools because they can do it themselves, right? But they're not the people that would have hired you in the first place.

Yeah, yeah, they're the people who would have bought the, you know, foolproof 90-day marketing plan. For $27 or whatever, right?

Okay, so who is your target market? Who do you deliver value best to?

I work with founders and/or a lot of times C-suite execs who are like then shifting over into private practice. So people who have been doing grown-up business for at least a couple years and they need somebody who can come in and express what they're thinking and how they're feeling and work with them strategically to get their voice out. A lot of people in that like chunk or chunk, that's a horrible word, niche, um, call me their second brain because they want somebody who they're like, I know I could be good at this if I sat down and I like took the time to really focus on it, but like I want to be a great attorney or I want to be a great accountant. So I want you to come in and do the word thing so I don't have to get good at this.

I don't think an accountant could be a good copywriter. Uh, ever.

I've met one. Yeah, yeah, one in all my travels.

An attorney, maybe, but they probably use too many words.

They get really worried about, um, specific words and about being misunderstood, and that kind of hangs them up on things.

Yeah, well, that would be probably the same problem with accountants. Like, um, accountants and engineers are cousins.

Um, oh, they're so fun.

You know, I will never work with an engineer. We've had them as clients before. Before we picked our target market of working with creative professionals, I had like one and I'm like, never again. Because yeah, anyway, I wouldn't have a cow.

Yeah, very specific in their working style.

Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now. It, it, to me, it's more of, of the, I don't know. I'm not— I shouldn't say this. There's not any engineers listening anyway. They tend to think that they know everything, and it's like you have the capacity probably to understand everything, but that doesn't mean you know everything, and it doesn't make sense for you to know everything. But I do think that engineers and accountants specifically have a way of communicating that is not— well, I mean, they're process people. They're not people people, right? Like, and their brains work differently than a lot of others. And so I imagine that could be a challenge to take— you're really translating, really.

Yeah, that's a really good way to say it.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's, it's taking, it's figuring out why they actually care about it. Because a lot of the people in like the more high-context industries I've worked with, so engineers, finance, law, medicine, they actually really like what they're doing, or they really care about it, or there's something about it that drew them into that. And they do genuinely like some element of it, whether that is making life easier for people or solving problems or figuring out something nobody's ever figured out before. And so it's my job to get into that and to find that enthusiasm or interest or passion and then translate it, even though it may come across in them as just like, this is so great, I love solving problems. I'm like, no, no, no, like we can do better. Let's make this really impactful for people.

That's funny. You make them interesting to normal people.

Yeah, it's like showing why they're interesting to normal people because a lot of times they'll lead with something that they get really excited about. So I used to work for like a probiotic company and they were so excited about the way this particular blend of probiotics interacted with the molecules that form iron in the blood. And I was like, you have got to tell me why anybody would care about that because that's like, you are clearly super jazzed about it, but like, what does that translate to? And what it translates to is better dental health. And better heart health. And I'm like, oh, well, of course people want that, but they don't care about the reuptake of interactions.

Yeah, they don't want to know how the sausage is made.

Yeah, exactly.

They just like the sausage. But we— I mean, I think also professionals have a tendency to overexplain. Yeah. Maybe because it is interesting to them, but also I think there's this compulsion to feel like, uh, I'm— I know what I'm talking about, right? Like, so I'm gonna give you all the, the context and details because you need to understand that I know what I'm talking about. I didn't just come up with this.

As I, uh, have said to many a client in those industries, because they'll show me their about pages and it's just like lists of every class they've ever taken. And I'm like, dude, I believe you so hard. Now, what if we didn't have to prove it? What if you could just stand confidently and know that nobody actually knows how good you are at this, but they're willing to take your word for it?

Well, and that, that, that's interesting because, you know, you've talked about relationships and, and, and I think one of the, the challenges in the age that we're in is the deterioration of trust that, that existed pre-LLMs, but LLMs have definitely accelerated. And, you know, what creates trust is not credentials and experience. I mean, that, that, that's not— but that's what we think as professionals we have to lead with. But to your point, you know, you go to the doctor and you have no idea whether they're doing their job right or not. There's no way unless you went to medical school and residency and did all this, how would you know? And it's okay, doctors disagree on things, right? So how are you going to know that your doctor's opinion is better than the other doctor's opinion? So like, you're never going to know whether the professional is doing their job, quote, right, end quote.

Yeah.

Right.

So, yeah.

How do you, how do you, what do you replace that with?

Yeah. So you have to start out by replacing it with proof that they understand where you're coming from. So one of the best billboards that I ever saw, and I wish I had written it, but it was in like North Mississippi somewhere. It was for a law firm. And all it said was, it can't hurt to call. And I was like, oh, that's so good because that is exactly what your friends tell you when you're like, hey, like, should I call? Oh, well, it can't hurt to call. That's exactly what they say. And so, these, whoever wrote that was brilliant because they were able to get so into the voice and mind of where people were exactly before they make that call. So, exactly where they were in that sales process. So, if you can understand what your people really actually care about and you can signal to them by using very specific phrases or markers or experiences that, yeah, I get you. And like, we can, we can do something together here. Then they're willing to at least check you out.

Yes. Yes. And I think what the natural next step of that is, is, which is I'm just, I've been shouting this from the rooftop on this show and in my book. I mean, for the last 2 years. Is you have to have a very clear understanding of the problem that you're solving. Yes. And so many businesses don't understand that. So, you know, like, I went to the Walmart Supercenter today. I hate the Walmart Supercenter, right? Yeah. But there was a guy there. There was a greeter. And normally it's like the 80-year-old that doesn't have anything to do, right? This guy was maybe my age, maybe a little younger. He looked just like Howard Stern. And the energy that this guy had was just off the charts. And it was genuine. Like, and I'm like, why have I never seen this in Walmart? Right? Yeah. And I'm like, Well, because that's not why you go to Walmart. Like that, right? You go to Walmart because they're going to have what you want and it's going to be cheap and you can get it, right? Walmart knows their job. They know their role. They're right. Yeah, but, but, but, but it's, it's, it's interesting to me how so few businesses really understand what problem they're solving. They try to be everything to everybody and they're like Yeah, yeah.

Or like, I see them try to be everything to everybody, or they articulate their understanding of the problem based on how they think you want to hear about it instead of what you actually care about. And like, my favorite example of this, there was, um, a guy who— David Hyatt owned a jeans company, and he wrote an essay called 10 Lessons from a Maker. And one of the lessons was, nobody goes to sleep at night and dreams of high quality. So everybody, all the jeans companies, like, oh, high quality denim, the best rivets or whatever. And I'm like, I don't actually really care about that. I care whether my butt looks good in the jeans or not. And so you have to be able to think about what I call the 4 AM language, right? Like, nobody wakes up in the middle of the night going, oh, if only I could find some high quality denim. They think, man, I looked awful in that last picture. How do I fix that?

Yes. Yes. And I think the longer a business is in business, the more they can get kind of calcified in their thinking. About like, this is really what they want. And I don't— there's— and this is kind of a nuance of marketing. You can absolutely— or just business in general— you can sell people what they want, not what they need, all day long. And a lot of people, myself included, it's kind of like, yeah, I don't want to sell them necessarily what they want. I want to sell them what they need to get what they— right? And so, like, there's this, this knowledge gap. They say, well, I want, I want jeans that make my ass look good, but they don't understand what is necessary to make that happen, right? Yeah, totally. And, and so there's this knowledge gap of, like, this is what I want, but this is what I really need, and not focusing on the need. Like, I, you know, But it, yeah, I don't want to be a crack dealer and sell people things that they want but don't really need. And I think most business owners are in that headspace. But sometimes you have to lead with what they want, not what they need. I mean, like, you kind of, you can just kind of give them what they need and they don't notice.

So that's like the pill in the peanut butter approach, you know, like when you have to feed your dog something, you could do that or If you can at least acknowledge what they want, then you can tell them, you know, I think, you know, you think this is what you want, but here's what you actually need and here's why. And if you can educate them like that in the copy, a lot of times they will be so grateful and convert at much higher rates because you've acknowledged, like, look, I get that what you care about here is how your ass looks in those jeans, but let me tell you why this particular denim that I buy makes that happen. And doing that education process establishes you as an expert. It builds rapport because they feel seen, and it leads— it helps them sort of sell themselves on you before they even really get to you.

Yeah. Yes. You've engaged them emotionally and then you've brought their cognitive mind in to help them rationalize it.

Yeah, exactly. And importantly, in that order, because we feel faster than we think.

Yeah. And we don't think real clearly. I like to make fun of my brother. He thinks that he makes every decision completely rationally, like no emotion involved. Yeah, that's what I said. You're the only human ever, really. That's fascinating.

Yeah, but there's a copy. You should give them a copy of, uh, Thinking Fast and Slow, Daniel Kahneman. You'll be, uh, very upset.

But, but that, that is the reality, is that people think that they think rationally, um, and not emotionally. But, uh, and when you're dealing with people's emotions Sometimes because a lot of people abuse it, it can feel kind of smarmy. I mean, the best example is the car salesperson, right? Like, no one wants their emotions manipulated, but that's what sales and marketing is, is it's manipulating your emotions.

I mean, I think it can be. I think people associate manipulation negatively. I think what I would I don't think it is.

I don't think manipulation is positive or negative.

I think it's— Oh yeah, no, I hold it as neutral. I think people just, yeah, associate it that way. So when I'm doing my peanut butter, pill in the peanut butter to my clients, I'm like, okay, we're not manipulating them, we're inviting them, which, you know, it is, it's the same thing. It's a little neutral, you know, but I think that it's more, it's not, people think a lot of times that marketing is almost like an incantation. Like, oh, if I say the right series of words, then you're going I'm gonna go, um, blank, and I will have like Manchurian Candidated you into buying my thing.

And I'm like, it is largely sorcery and witchcraft.

Yes. Um, yeah, I mean, that is why I do it.

Yes.

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But, you know, the example I have in our business, like, the need that people have is like good bookkeeping. Yeah. You know, they come and they're like, wow, I want to I want to get my taxes done. I want to pay less taxes. I want to know they're done right. I want to get them done on time, and I don't want to owe any taxes. I want to have that all planned. Great. Nowhere in there is the underpinning of good bookkeeping, right? Or timely bookkeeping or accurate bookkeeping. And you really in most cases can't sell bookkeeping. Like nobody wants to pay for bookkeeping, right? Um, so, you know, we don't even— I don't even know if we— we might mention that as a feature. I don't know. But like it's hidden. Like, yeah, you're not buying bookkeeping, but we know that's what you need. And it comes with the package because we can't do those other things without that, right?

Yeah, I recently wrote copy for a fractional finance department. So they had everyone from a CFO right down to bookkeeping, but they were having the hardest time with positioning because everyone just saw them as like really expensive bookkeepers. And so we were having to explain, you know, what we're really doing here is helping you strategize and make good decisions for the longevity of your business. Yes, we also happen to do your books and yes, we can, you know, sign your payroll and stuff like that. But what it's really about is solving problems.

Yeah. And when you get into places where people are uneducated, like finance, it becomes difficult. And like that example, I used to do work as a fractional CFO, and I realized that what I knew CFO to be was not what the people thought CFO was. And there was a fundamental disconnect from the start saying, well, I need a fractional CFO. And then you get in there and look at the situation. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, you don't need a CFO. I mean, yeah, you can hire me, but this is not what a CFO does. So there's this disconnect of knowledge between the buyer and the seller as well. Mm-hmm. But you got to, you got to use the, you got to use the terms they use. Like, you're kind of stuck with it.

Yes, totally. You have to start with their language and then say, you know, this is what this actually means. And I think that as the person who's doing the marketing, you have the responsibility to educate them. Otherwise, you end up with a bunch of people in your inbox who don't actually need you or who need someone else. And that's just frustrating.

And it's actually counterproductive. Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna pivot. I'm tired of talking about this. You've been doing this for 18 years. What are some of the challenges that you've had, not in delivering what you deliver, the creative aspect of it, but from a business, operational, financial standpoint? What are some of the challenges that you've encountered?

I mean, I think the, the first challenge everyone encounters, or at least I did, is just not actually having any kind of business knowledge or finances because I started this like I fell into it totally backwards. I did not plan to run a business. I started freelancing and then it just sort of became my job. So I made just like every mistake you could make. At one point I had not paid taxes for 3 years in 2 countries. So it was just unpleasant all around. That's impressive. You know, I like to aim high with my mistakes. So it was a lot to sort out.

It's the multiple countries that gets me. Were you working remotely?

Yeah. So I founded the business living in Hong Kong and then I lived nomadically for 10 years after that. So I moved about every 6 months. So I owed tax in the US because, you know, we still owe federal tax even though you live overseas. And then in the UK. And so we had to assemble a team of accountants that could talk to each other so we could get both returns filed and have me not pay double.

Yeah, that probably gets expensive. You know, we, we— having creative professionals, we have a lot of clients that are not necessarily nomadic, but they travel a lot, they work remotely a lot, and in different countries. But even in the United States, like technically, if you go to work in California, you're supposed to pay tax in California, right? Yeah, practically speaking, most people don't, but it— that, that whole tax nexus thing becomes really complicated, and, um, it can get expensive in a hurry.

Um, yeah, yeah, it was a pain. I ended up, uh, hand categorizing expenses across 5 years of spreadsheets, which if you ever really want to rethink your decision-making paradigm, that is a good way to do it.

Well, it's only the painful lessons that we learn something from.

This is true.

I'm assuming that elicited a change in behavior.

It did. Yeah. I got a bookkeeper for the very first time and had it because I— it was, you know, like such a rookie business owner thing of like, oh, well, I'm bad with numbers. I, you know, I'm bad at math. So, but also I can't outsource this because what if they mess it up? And like bookkeepers are scary. And so I, you know, finally got the courage to call one up and say, please, can you help me with my spreadsheets? And they were like, yeah, it's fine. Give me $100 a month and we're done. And I was like, oh, okay. Well, this is so much easier than I thought it would be.

Yeah. And, and I think what you're describing is a very common— I would say belief among creative professionals that that statement, I'm not good with numbers. I think that's— and I've even said it myself, but the more I've worked with creative professionals, the more I realize is that they use numbers all the time. It's not that they're uncomfortable with numbers. It's more akin to a foreign language, right? Like you're speaking a language I don't understand. And I think there's, well, I don't think, I know there's a lot of shame among creative professionals. Like they feel ashamed that they don't know, have this knowledge. And it like makes them hide a lot of times. Like it sounds like you might have done.

Yeah, absolutely. I was deeply ashamed that I, that I couldn't understand this because like I'm pretty smart and I pick most things up pretty quickly, but this I just couldn't. And all of the advice I found was geared towards people who had W-2 jobs, you know, so they're like, oh, well, assuming that you have a salaried income that's the same every single month, here's how you do it. And it's just so easy. Why can't you do a budget? And I was like, I don't know. Why can't I do a budget? Oh, It's because this advice is not meant for people who have the type of income I have.

Yeah. Have you, have you heard of Profit First?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Now I have. I had not at that point.

Okay. So do you, do you use Profit First?

Yeah, I use, um, sort of kind of a modified version of it. Um, and I just had to make it work for my business, but yeah, I have.

Yeah. Uh, so you've read Michalowicz's book?

I, um, I got it off a blog, so I haven't read the book, but I've, you know, read people talking about it.

Well, I'll, uh, I, I recommend buying the book just to hear his story, but I, I happen to have captured that on an episode of the show. So, uh, when we're done, I'll send it to you because it's, it's worth it just from his— for to hear his story because he's not an accountant. And like, the story of how he ended up where he ended up, that he created Profit First is a very compelling one. But, okay, I think, you know, plug for Profit First, not for Core, but for Profit First is I think one of the most powerful parts of Profit First is it meets the business owner in a language they already understand, bank accounts. Like they're already used to bank accounts and using, looking at their bank account online. And, and so the process doesn't try to change their behavior from that standpoint. It just, you know, takes that as a starting point and modifies it. And, and you'll see, it's kind of, it's, it's kind of wild. There are accountants that are like vehemently opposed to Profit First. Like, they think it's, it's an anathema, and, and I, I, they hate it. And I think it's because they feel threatened by it because they think that, oh, if you have Profit First, you don't need an accountant. I'm like, no, no, no, dude, you don't understand it. It's not for you. It's for the business owner. And they don't need to become an accountant. They're not trying to take your job away from you. They're trying to have a tool that they can use to run their business. And in that, I thought it was brilliant.

Okay.

Any other challenges that you've had to overcome besides the non-payment of taxes?

I think a lot of it— there's so many. I'm trying to decide which direction to go in. I mean, one was I actually had a very profitable business about starting almost immediately. And but about 3 years in, since I had started this as kind of a side gig, I couldn't wrap my brain around it being a real business. And I was just absolutely petrified all the time because I was like, oh, I'm never going to get a real job in the job market. And so I had to decide that I trusted myself enough to figure this out to, to make my living off of it. So that was a big mindset shift that I had to go through.

And what was that mindset shift? Like what, I mean, I'll shut up. What was that?

So I'll paint you a bit of a word picture because I think the background adds to this. So at the time I was living on an island in Greece and, you know, living the dream, working in the morning. I know it was so, it was awful. Somebody had to do it though. But I was like working in the morning and sunbathing all afternoon and people are bringing me fresh pressed orange juice. All the time, and I was just absolutely miserable. And I was like, well, this sucks. Like, this is not why I wanted to do this, because I was just so worried all the time about like, but what if it— what if it dries up? What if I can't do it? What if, what if, what if? And so I decided that I was going to do a master's degree as a sort of last-ditch attempt at following the path that I had grown up thinking I was going to follow. So I did a 1-year master's in London and at the same time grew the business. And I decided that at the end of that year, whichever one was more interesting, I was going to do that. And at the end of the year, the business was more interesting and more challenging because like, I know how to be good at academics, but I still didn't know how to be good at all of business. So I threw my hat in that ring.

So, so you were, you were, you got the master's as kind of a hedge of like getting back in the workforce.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. To see like, oh, well, maybe if I end up really liking this and like, I know that if I I can probably get a job in academia. And I just didn't want to.

That's interesting. I find a lot of creative professionals end up in business, not because they chose to, not a majority of them, but like they lose a job, industry change, divorce, whatever. But like, they find themselves in a situation of like, well, I, I got to make a living, and so I'll start this. I also find it common that, um, there is that hedging, that hesitancy. I, I see a lot of people that are continuing side hustles, and they won't let go of that guaranteed paycheck, which, you know, that's not a guarantee. Um, and it is really I think, driven by fear and lack of confidence in themselves.

I mean, in my case, it certainly was.

Yeah. And I think creatives— I write about this in my book— is for most creatives' lives, they've not had somebody that has mentored them that what they're doing is actually valuable. Yeah, there, there's a lot of, well, when are you going to get a real job kind of conversation, right? Yeah. And, and, and so I think that contributes to the lack of confidence. But I'm firmly— I firmly believe that we need— and I'm defining this as broadly as possible— but we need more creative professionals. We need more divergent thinking. We need more problem solvers. We don't need more people that know how to fit things into a spreadsheet or a box.

Yeah, yeah, I strongly agree. That's— it certainly makes the world more interesting, and I think it's actually where innovation comes from. If you look at it, I mean, even from the standpoint of complexity theory, right? I, um, there's a book actually called Complexity. It talks about complexity science, and for any organism to live, it has continue to innovate, but you only actually have to have a relatively small fraction of people who want to change it, and the rest actually have to want it to stay the same, otherwise the system is, uh, too unstable and it collapses.

I think that's fascinating.

I, I— yeah, it's cool.

Dr. Cutts, uh, wrote a book called Contextual Intelligence, and he describes the Most of the organizational theory of management has come from a military hierarchical structure, right? The management theory of it's a complex system. You just have to figure out what part is broken. You replace that piece, and then the clock starts working again, right? Yeah, but his statement is organizations are complex, not complicated. And his analogy is to a cake. They are, they share the commonality of having many attributes or pieces, but he said complex is like baking a cake. If you put in a bad egg, you can't take the egg out, right? So like, it's not a— it's not there's a broken piece in the machinery, we need to replace it. It's, it's more organic in that you don't have to change, uh, much to have an over, um,— what's the word I'm looking for?— have more impact. So, like, salt is a great example. Like, you don't have to put much more salt or leave the salt out before you fundamentally change the taste of the cake.

Yeah.

Yeah. So just thinking in terms of complex as opposed to complicated. And all of that to say, like, complicated is more of a convergent linear way of thinking. Find the pieces that's not working, replace it. But because organizations are people, they're complex. You can't just replace a person. You might disrupt the whole thing, which is, I think, what you were saying.

Yeah, absolutely. And Thank you for the delineation between complicated and complex. That articulates something I've been thinking about for a really long time, so I'm just having a little, like, light bulb moment over here.

I highly recommend the book. I've offered to help him rewrite it as an anecdotal story because he is a professor, and it's not an academic work, but it's written like an academic work, which is interesting because he in person is like not academic talking at all. Like, so I'm like, I don't know if he wrote it thinking that he had to have credibility. I don't know. But yeah, but it's a great book.

Yeah, that sounds awesome.

Contextual Intelligence, Kutz, K-U-T-Z.

Nice.

How can people find out more about Bolt from the Blue and/or Rachel Allen?

They can find out more at boltfromthebluecopywriting.com, or you can connect with me on LinkedIn.

Well, that was simple. Listeners, I'll have those links in the show notes. If you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, hit that little message button and shoot us a text, and I'll get rid of Rachel. Until next time, talk talk for now.