Why Does Story Beat Strategy Every Time? | Graham Kuhn

My wife is screaming at me to beg for my job back. My father-in-law is calling me saying, hey man, you need to call, get your job back. And I was just like, you know, we have money coming in from last month. We have savings. And I know that if I go back to that guaranteed salary in that comfortable situation, I'm never going to have the guts to take this leap again. I just, I don't feel called to go back and get my job back.

Welcome to Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Muncie, Indiana. I hope I pronounced that correctly, but if I didn't, thank you for listening anyway. Joining me today, Graham Coon from Focus Film Studios. Graham, welcome to the show.

Thank you. Thank you very much, Christian. I always say Graham Coon with Focus Films so I don't get tongue-tied.

Oh, that's good. I had a pledge brother in college whose last name was Coon, and I haven't seen that name, uh, for 35 years.

Oh wow, there's not— yeah, there's not many of us.

Yeah. Whereabouts do you live?

Uh, I'm in Atlanta, Georgia, just north of Atlanta in Woodstock, Georgia.

Very nice. Okay, so tell us about Focus Films.

Yeah, so I actually started, I went to college to be an opera singer. I'm a music guy. And through that, I started working at this big church in Atlanta. And I was doing music and they found out, hey, you've made videos before? I'm like, well, I made some like highlight videos for sports teams in high school and college. But they're like, hey, we'd like to start making videos. So from 2007 to 2020, I was cranking out 2 or 3 videos every week. And so got pretty good at it. But By 2020, side hustle got too big and I had to make a decision. Am I going to slow down the side hustle so that I can actually have an hour to sleep? Or are we going to quit the salary job with benefits? And my wife's a stay-at-home mom and 3 kids. And 45 years old, I took the leap into business ownership and being self-employed. So that's the origin story of Focus Films. But really, What I love about what we do is taking the storytelling perspective and really digging in deep with our clients, with the owner of the company, and really why they do what they do rather than focusing on, you know, features and benefits of the business or, you know, warranties or how many years they've been in business, but really the story of why they do it. And that's what I really love making those connections. And I feel like that's what really connects with their viewer and their potential customer is the storytelling aspect and showing the person behind the brand. And the way that we make people comfortable on camera is we just do interviews like we're doing right now. Like we sit down across from each other with two cameras and we just have a conversation and we try to dig deep like a therapy session. And I try to make them cry. And, uh, then, uh, that's how we do it. And that's how people look comfortable on camera. And we get that real heartfelt story that sets them apart from from their competition.

Yeah, I love that. It's, you know, I think people are coming to come back to the realization, maybe some of them never left, that it's all about story. I don't know. I don't really care what medium you're in. So I had Connor Quinn on the show recently. He's one of the OG voice actors. And he was talking about the guy he took lessons from, the guy that did the voice for Yogi Berra. I don't remember his name. Not Yogi Berra. Yogi Bear.

Yogi Bear, yeah.

For Hanna-Barbera. And he was describing to him that, like, no, no, no, no, no, no, I've got a whole story behind Yogi the Bear. Like, Why does he wear a tie? And why does he wear that hat? And like, there's just this whole story behind him that shows up in the character, but nobody ever knows about, nobody ever hears, right? And I think whatever the medium is, what is compelling to humans, the human brain is the story. We're wired that way, as Donald Miller would say, and it's the emotional connection. That's how you connect with people. So, um, how— what was that transition like at 45? That's a little longer in the game than a lot. And, um, you, you, you— I don't want to say changed careers, but sort of. Um, what, what was that like?

Yeah, it was absolutely terrifying. So I mean, I'm not gonna lie, like, my, my wife had been a stay-at-home mom. That's what she wanted to do. We were single income. I had 3 small kids at home. I think there were about 2, 4, and 6 or something like that. Um, maybe 3, 7, and something. But, um, it was terrifying because my last day at my salary job was March 13th, 2020. And we had planned to make this leap. I had a full book of clients. I had contracted about $100,000 worth of projects between May and August that year. And I mean, my salary was $57,000. So $100,000 in work over a few months is like, oh my gosh. And so I had a full book of clients. I had a monthly retainer. We had saved up like 6 months of savings, 6 months of expenses. Like, I mean, we couldn't have prepared more and made it a more perfect transition than we did. Unfortunately, March 13th was my last day. March 16th, everything shut down. All of those contracts went away. Eventually that monthly retainer went away and it was absolutely terrifying. So I had a, I had a much scarier transition than most, but long story short, got through it, got to do some really cool things that I would not have otherwise done. Like I got to travel to California and Texas and do some videos for Nokia. That was not, you know, in the plan. Um, I got to livestream some Jewish high holidays. Like I was working in a Catholic church. I'd never been in a Jewish synagogue in my life. One of my friends is Jewish. He's like, hey, can you livestream our services? And I'm like, yeah, I can do that. So I had some cool opportunities and that year turned out really great. But you asked about how that transition was. It was absolutely terrifying. But one thing I love to talk about is just pushing through fear, pushing through imposter syndrome. You know, I was having self-doubt and like, oh, maybe I wasn't supposed to do this. Maybe I'm not destined to be an entrepreneur, you know, just beating myself up. I'll over something I could not control at all. My wife is screaming at me to beg for my job back. My father-in-law is calling me saying, hey, man, you need to call, get your job back. And I was just like, you know, we have money coming in from last month. We have savings. And I know that if I go back to that guaranteed salary in that comfortable situation, I'm never going to have the guts to take this leap again. I just, I don't feel called. To go back and get my job back. Because I mean, the 3 most addictive things in life are heroin, carbohydrates, and a monthly salary. And I knew if I went back to that salary, I was going to— that was going to be it. So long story short, it was terrifying. But almost 6 years later, it's been amazing. Wait, what's today? Oh my gosh, March 10th. So in 3 days, it's going to be my 6-year anniversary since having a day job.

Congratulations.

That is awesome, man. That's awesome.

Yeah, I had a similar conversation with myself at age 27 when I started my business, and I, I, I thought, well, I, I knew that if I continued on down this road, it would be harder and harder to quit. And, and at 27, I had 2 young children, uh, I, mine were like 3 and less than 1. But I didn't have anything, so I thought, well, you know, I don't have anything to lose. I'm pretty sure that's not the way my wife perceived it. But I had this idea that like it would— the longer I stayed in it, the harder it would be. And, you know, to your point, borrowed money to buy the franchise. Used my credit cards to go do the in-person training in California for 3 weeks. And I came back and it was like there was no net, there was nothing but success as an option. And that is an amazing motivator. I don't— you can't replicate it, right? Like, you can't go back and recreate that situation.

Yep. Yeah. And actually, that's part of my story too, is like not having a safety net. Like, I actually flunked out of college. I mean, I just, I discovered the wonders of partying in college. And after 3 years, they were like, you got to go, dude. And I got back in, I petitioned, I went for 2 more years, but I didn't finish because I got a singing job in Atlanta. So I moved to Atlanta for the singing job. There's no degree, there's no safety net, there's no plan B, as they say. And so that really motivates you to like figure things out and you've got to make it. You can't just walk into an office and give the resume and be like, oh, you have a bachelor's degree so you can get this job. I was so not qualified for so many jobs because I didn't have that degree. So there's no safety net. That's a huge motivator. And then just taking that leap and just having nothing to fall back on where it's like, hey man, it's all up to you. To be the provider. And I will say, after that first year, I let my ego get in the way. I got pretty proud of myself. We'd done, you know, the revenue was about $180,000. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I am like killing it here. And so I took off like the month of December, like, oh, the kids are home from school for Christmas. I'm the business owner. I don't have to work. Man, I came back that January, had nothing in the funnel, no pipeline. It took me the whole first quarter to get things ramped up again. So ever since then, I've tried to keep my ego in check and not take my foot off the gas. And you know, you live and you learn. But yeah, I was like, oh, I got this figured out. I'm not going to work this month. Idiot. I did not fill my pipeline.

I heard the founder of Boston Market speak to a group of entrepreneurs, and he has a very Italian, very Boston accent, so he's very hard to understand. Oh, I love that. But he said, you know, business is simple. He said it's either getting the business or doing the business. And I'm like, yeah, it really is that simple, right? Yeah, everything you deal with is one of those two problems. Um, okay, so 6 years, almost 6 years, what were some of the biggest challenges you didn't expect? I mean, like, you had some expectation because you'd been side hustling and doing it, but like, what, what were, what was the one you didn't know?

Yeah, I'm torn between two of them. Um, one was imposter syndrome. Like, I'm a pretty confident guy, I'm very outgoing, I've always been pretty successful. I didn't expect that crippling imposter syndrome, like I'm not good enough. Like, that was interesting for me. But then the other thing was the roller coaster that your P&L is because you're so accustomed, or I was accustomed for, you know, I was 45. So God, I'd been working for 30 years. You're just used to getting that paycheck every 2 weeks and it just shows up in the account and it's just, you take it for granted. But that first time you get a little low on money and your wife goes, Well, do you have any money coming in? You're like, no. Oh my God. What am I going to do? And then the next month you might do $30,000. Right. And then the next month you do $1,200. And it's like, if you don't have those consistent, like monthly retainers and things like that, just the up and down and the inconsistency of the P&L took, took a lot of getting used to. Um, so that. I mean, I was probably naive that that was a surprise to me, but it's just a different feeling when all of a sudden you're like, oh my gosh, there's not, there's not a paycheck going in the account Friday. Like, you have to make it happen, you know?

So how did you, what was your solution to that inconsistent cash flow?

How did you solve that? Being more consistent with my outreach, being more consistent. For me, the way I sell is I show up in the, in the community, whether it's on Facebook pages, Facebook groups, local networking is I enjoy serving people. I believe that what we do has a value. I believe you can help people. And so I try to be a leader in my community and build my network and form more relationships. So the more consistent I am with networking and doing outreach and posting on social media, the more relationships I make, which leads to more consistent work instead of the, the one-off $10,000 project. And that's all I'm hyper-focused on for a month. And then you get to the next month and it's like, oh my gosh, there's nothing else. So it's balancing the work with the networking, but just really being consistent, never resting on my laurels, never being comfortable, and just continuing to show up. Like, I'm— this month that we're recording is March. It's— I believe I'm on pace to have the highest revenue month I've ever had in 6 years, but I'm not stopping because, I mean, I know I've got to keep showing up. I can't just sit here and like work on these projects. I've got to keep showing up and networking and making myself known and serving people. And so that's That's really how I solved it, is being more consistent with relationships and networking and meeting more people and consistently talking about my business. And really, one of my friends calls it being impossible to ignore. It's like, God, you're posting every day. You're always on LinkedIn. You're always on Facebook. And I'm like, yeah, I'm impossible to ignore. Somebody thinks video, they're like, hey, that guy in Atlanta, that Graham guy, you know?

I love that. I actually was secretly hoping that you'd say, well, yeah, I implemented Profit First and that's how I was.

Able to. So it's interesting, one of my mentors taught me about Profit First, and it was funny you said about the credit card with your, uh, workshop or whatever it was. I did the same thing when I started. I, I bought a $2,500 course for building a video business, and I got a credit card to do it, but I built my entire business on it, so it worked out great, and, um, it was definitely worth it. But I am terrible with money. I have a horrible relationship with money, um, I am afraid of making a lot of money. It's really, it's like I'm afraid of success. I'm from a tiny little farm town in Wisconsin. So there's not millionaires everywhere. And like people from my town don't become a big deal. So I have a weird psychological, so there's a, there's a book on my shelf that my mentor gave me too called The Psychology of Money. He's like, you need to read this because that'll help you with that. But anyway, I learned all about Profit First. I got the different bank accounts and the whole nine. Um, but I just never implemented it. But I will say, friends of mine who have done it, who have been in the video space, swear by it. They're like, profit first, profit first. So I know it works. I'm just naughty.

Well, your story is not unusual. I think, and I write about this in my book, there's a whole chapter around, you know, profit first being a tool and the mindset and the intent around money is critical. Like the tool won't work unless your mindset's right. And A lot of people, including myself— well, I'd say virtually everybody— comes into business ownership with some baggage around money, what they've learned about it and the beliefs around it. And it takes some time to unpack. Um, you, you mentioned in the green room, uh, you know, wanting to talk about, you know, pricing and charging enough and One of my favorite stories on that is a guy by the name of Cliff Ravensclaw. He was on the show a couple of years ago. You can go listen to that. He was an OG podcaster. He and his wife did a podcast on Lost, and every week when the episode come out, they would break it down. And he got into podcast you know, this is very early on. So he would coach people that wanted to start a podcast. And at that time, it was a lot around equipment. And so he would sell equipment and help them set it up and teach them how. And this guy that he had sold some equipment to had said, I'm having this problem. Can I schedule some time to consult? And he goes, yeah, it's an hour and it's $250, something like that. And he said, great, we'll talk next week. And then Cliff is sitting there and he's like, you know, the manufacturer's got a 1-800 number and he could probably call them and they could fix his problem for free. And so he emails his client and he goes, thanks, I still want to meet next week. And so he gets on Skype or whatever it was.

It wasn't Zoom.

And he's 5 minutes early for the call and the client's on the call. And the client describes the problem, and Cliff says, oh, well, do this. And he did, and literally in 60 seconds he'd solved the problem. The time for the appointment had not even arrived yet, and the guy's like, great, send me a bill. And Cliff's like, I can't send you a bill. He goes, why? He goes, well, we didn't even meet for the hour, and like, it only took And he's like, I don't care, you fix my problem, uh, send me a bill. He had to argue with him, with Cliff, to get him to send a bill. And in Cliff's mind, he hadn't worked hard, he didn't earn that money.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, uh, he really had to unpack that to figure out like, no, no, no, no, this is not This is not right. And, but I like that story because there's all kinds of bullshit that we have in our heads and beliefs around money that affect our business decisions. So what you wanted to talk about it, what, what, how have those money beliefs that you've brought into the business affected How you do business. Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that full commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now.

Yeah, I just really like talking about it because I know that, especially for your listeners, a creative podcast, there's creatives out there who think if they charge a lot of money, either they're ripping people off or it's not art anymore or the starving artist trope. And what I learned from Mentor, because I was the same way when I started. I'm like, man, nobody's going to pay me $300 for a video, $400. What? Uh, it takes me, you know, I'm making a small salary at the church and, uh, what it takes me a couple hours to do this. I'm going to ask for $500. It was insane because I had this thinking where I wasn't valuing myself. I wasn't valuing what I was providing for the client. Um, so it was imposter syndrome, limiting beliefs and all that, but I like to talk about it because I want people to know that you set your value. And you need to know what you are worth. You're solving problems. So your story about Cliff, it's like that story I've heard where it's a painter and they come and they paint, paint something for somebody and it takes an hour and they ask like $5,000 for it. And they're like, but it only took you an hour. And it's like, no, it didn't take me an hour. It took me 25 years of experience that I can deliver this beautiful thing so quickly. That's the value. Um, and so it's not an hourly wage. It's not based on, I don't even, I don't charge a lot of video people charge half days and day rates. We charge by the project. I don't, I don't believe in charging by the hour. I don't believe in, in line iteming things like we're using this camera. So it's $100 a day and all that. I believe in the project and the finished project and the value for the customer and the way that you can get over. Pricing is that when you're finding the right clients, like I'm not going to do a video for the local coffee shop because it would take them so many new customers to get a return on that. Let's even say if I did a $1,000 video, like a low video for $1,000 at $5 a cup, what would that take? 200 new customers to even break even with that? Like, dude, I'm good, but I'm not going to get the local coffee shop 200 people. But if I'm doing a video for a luxury custom home builder that's selling a $3 million home and they're going to net $300,000 from it, $10,000 in video work to profit $300,000 is a drop in the bucket. So it's, it's psychologically, if you're with knowing the value of what it's going to do for your customer, it just takes that pressure off of, well, can they afford it? Am I charging too much? It's like, nah, dude. What I'm providing them has value. It's going to get them a return. And so I need to be compensated for it. That's, that was the mind shift that, that I needed to understand the value that I'm providing. It's not about the number of hours. It's about my experience and how I'm going to help that person make more money.

That's, you nailed it.

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I'll go a step further. Yes, I think that, um, people, especially creatives, have a hard time charging what they're worth, understanding their own value, right? But I was on a podcast recently and I said, here's the dirty little secret, is it really doesn't matter whether you value yourself or not because the customer and only the customer can determine the value.

You can't. They set the price. Yep. Yep.

Right? And to your example, I was doing a workshop on Profit First for Creatives and this videographer was talking about his customers, and he had two very distinct types of customers. One were nonprofit, one were not. His deliverables were essentially the same. Mm-hmm. But the perceived value, and therefore the price, was radically different between those two. And I think a lot of times we get caught up in what we do, our experience, our skill set. And that's largely irrelevant. And, and it, but it's hard to get out of our own way because that's, that's what we focus on because that's what we think is important.

It's also knowing that one thing I learned from a coach was even, even my first day doing video as, as an entrepreneur, even when I met with the CEO of the $500 million franchise home building company, I knew more about how video worked in marketing than he did. Even if I knew this much more, that's the value. So I'm coming in like Graham Coon from little farm town in Wisconsin. I don't know shit.

I don't know.

And it's like, no, I know more than he does, even though he's the super successful, you know, you know, me, I, my mindset is like, you CEOs are on a pedestal. They're so successful. I can't touch them. Then you have conversations with them. You're like, hey, I do know more about this than they do. And that's another point I make all the time is like doing the work really builds the confidence. The more you do that, the more you meet with those people and you realize, man, I do, I know what I'm doing, man. I do have a value. It really, really boosts the confidence and gets you over that imposter syndrome.

Well, yeah, because that was your first unknown that you ran into was this feeling of being an imposter. And that was I'm glad you brought that back up because that was going to be my question is like, how did you solve that? And it sounds like you solved that through reps.

Yeah, that and also the reps of doing the work. But then, of course, you know, feedback, the more clients you have that are happy, it makes you feel better and all that. But just believing that or knowing, not even believing, but like I said, knowing that I know more about this stuff than my clients. That's why they want to hire me. I did an interview with Valerie, Dr. Valerie Young, who is the world expert on imposter syndrome. Syndrome. And one thing I love that she said was imposter syndrome is like you saying that your clients are too stupid to figure out that you don't know what you're doing. And that really shifted my perspective. I'm like, you know, you're right. I'm basically saying like, what? Oh, they're so dumb. They don't know that I'm a fraud.

And it just realizing they're hiring me anyway, right?

Like, how dumb are they to hire me? But realizing like, man, they want to hire you because you can help them. You know more than they do. I don't care what your industry is. If somebody wants to hire you it, it's because you know more than they do and you can help them. That was, that was a big mindset shift for me and getting over the leg. And I'll tell you the, I can tell you the exact moment it happened was chief marketing officer, big hundreds of millions of dollars a year revenue, chief marketing officer for that company. I explained to him my concept for a brand story video, which is basically interviewing the client, making them comfortable, talking about who they are, really a lot about why they do what they do and what makes them different and just storytelling and neuroscience and like, you know, how the brain works and all of that. And I was like, I think your franchises need that. And of course I'm sweating, like, you know, nervous. And he looks at me and he says, that is fucking genius, bro. That moment for that man to say that to me as I'm sitting there sweating, thinking he's some big successful chief marketing officer. For him to say my idea was genius, that was it. I was like, oh my gosh. I, I, oh, blew me away, dude. I can almost tear up. And that was like 7 years ago while I was still working at the day job.

I love that. Okay. So, um, what about pricing still is an issue for you?

I honestly, I'm pretty good with it now. I am, um. Like, well, I will say I do have a bit of a sales background in that I used to work at Crunch Fitness and Bally Total Fitness and Gold's Gym. And so I went to their quote unquote sales training and learned to ask for money. So that, you know, it's uncomfortable to ask for money, but I do have a background in that. So I'm comfortable asking for money. Um, but it's, uh, always when I'm going to raise my prices or anytime I'm in a growth mode in my business, I'm always scared. Like in 2019, when I first started doing this, I was charging $2,500 for a brand story video. That was almost my monthly salary at my job. Right.

That was terrifying.

Then a year or so later, my mentor's like, you need to raise your price. Now it's going to be $3,500. I'm like, are you serious, dude? Nobody's going to pay me $3,500. And every year we would raise it and raise it and just just the more you do it, it gets more comfortable. But also, I also believe in the, what do they call it, the collaborative close. Like I'm talking to my client in the sales meeting, we're coming to a solution that's going to help them, whether that's a brand story video and 3 testimonials, or it's a testimonial and an FAQ video. Like I feel like we come to it together. And so I don't feel like I'm quote unquote selling them. I feel like I'm being compensated for a solution to their problem. Um, and so it's just putting myself in that mindset of serving them and helping them. And they know that, that, um, they're gonna have to pay me for it. And I'll say that right in the beginning of the meeting because there's nothing worse than somebody being like, let me think about it. So right in the beginning of the meeting, it's like, at the end, I— we've already, we've already kind of talked about your problems. We're going to discuss options. And at the end of this meeting, I'm going to give you a price. And I just want you to give me the respect of saying yes or no. Don't say, think about it, or we're going to figure out what you have to think about. Because also I pre-qualify and I make sure all of the decision makers are in the room in that meeting. Because I don't, I don't want to tell Christian all about it. And then Christian goes, sounds great, man. I'll relay it to my boss. Right. It never, it's just, it loses all its muster. So decision makers are in the room. I tell them to get into the meeting. I'm going to give you a price at the end. Just say yes or no. And we're still friends, literally no matter what happens. And then I give them the price. And I just, this was what my mentor told me. He's like, give them the price and say, is that doable? And shut the fuck up. That's what he would say. And he would say, he would also say, Don't be a bitch. If in your head it's $9,000, you put $9,000 on that paper. You don't be a bitch and go, oh, but I'm, they probably won't go for it. I'm gonna put $8,000. You know, I mean, it was great lessons, man. And, and also me never growing up around money, not realizing there's plenty of people that $5,000, $9,000 is like nothing to them. So for me, I'm like asking for a mortgage or a house or a car, and they're like, yeah, no, will you take cash?

You know, do you think— I mean, I, I've never really asked this question, but do you think that, uh, creative entrepreneurs for the most part are, are uncomfortable with selling? You had some background training. I do. But yeah, because I, I think what you said really it resonated with me. Like, people don't want to feel like they're selling somebody. Like, they have this idea of what that is, and it's, it's around, like, uh, convincing somebody to part with money for something they don't really want. Um, but that's— I mean, that's not sales. It can be, but that's not what it should be.

A way, or the way another mentor of mine put it that I thought was really, really great was, like you said, if you're thinking you're selling somebody or you're forcing them to buy something that they don't want, like, I mean, that's how I learned to do it. I mean, I was at Bally Total Fitness trying to sell $600 in personal training to a single mom who could barely afford her membership. And I'm like, what can we get you to do to start today? And gross, gross, icky sales. Right. But the way my ment— another mentor put it was, if you believe in what you do, if you believe that what you do can truly help the person across the table from you. So for me, talking about different types of videos that can help their business, I truly believe in that. I believe it can help you. I believe that this could be the, the solution to your problems. If I believe in that, I need to share that with the world. Otherwise, I am being totally selfish, keeping it to myself. If I can change somebody's business, but I'm too afraid to talk about it, I'm being selfish. So it's not sales. It's being like, let me help you. If you truly believe what you do helps people, it's just so much easier. So for photographers out there, I mean, brand, brand photography, lifestyle photography, like that really helps a business. So don't be afraid to ask for that money, man. I mean, it's really. Really going to help them. So you've got to have that mindset that you're not selling them. You're, you're providing a solution and it's selfish to keep it to yourself. That's a little Catholic guilt trip.

No, I think it's valid. I was talking to a client recently. He and his wife have a wedding photography business where they do most of their work in Napa Valley. And as we were talking, he was like, Yeah, we target, uh, uh, we work with wedding planners, but we're looking for people that someone is— someone that's having a wedding that they're going to spend $500,000 to $800,000. And I'm like, what? Like, who does that? I know, right? And, but, but that's, that's my point of view. That's my experience. Like, The fact that other people do it, as outrageous as it may seem, doesn't mean that they don't. And it kind of goes back to what I was saying. We get locked into our own heads. Like, we wouldn't do that, so therefore, why would we ask somebody else to do it?

Yes.

I—

500,000, 800,000 at a wedding. But then you see these, like, amazing, like, Indian weddings that are, like, 2 days long. There's been, like— And especially like California. I mean, there's a lot of people, man, even here in Atlanta, when I'm driving down toward the city, there are so many, dude, so many suburbs of like $3 to $10 million homes, suburbs, man, like 50, 100 houses that are like 5. I'm like, what do these people do? But they're out there and they need solutions to problems just like everybody. So yeah. And then that's what. My, um, my original mentor coach guy who gave me the psychology of money. It was a concept I could not grasp. He goes, man, when somebody buys from you, the exchange of money, it's, it's just a transfer of energy. And I'm like, what, what does that mean, man? He's like, it's not like they're taking $2,000 cash out of their pocket and giving it. He's like, it's just like we agreed to this and now poof, magically there's money in my account. And it's just, it's just an exchange of energy. And I'm like, man, that is so woo-woo. But it really, it really gave me a perspective on it. It's not like I'm got a stack of cash and I'm giving it to you. It's just an agreement and exchange of energy. I'm like, that was, that was really powerful for me.

Well, yes. And I will add that what people are willing to spend money on is unique and personal to them. Like, no two people value the same things and therefore will spend money on the same things. And this, this came to light a few years ago. I was attending an event with my wife and I wanted to park valet because we were running late. And she's like, no, just pull around, park in the parking garage. I'm like, okay. So we park in the parking garage and we're walking to the venue and one of my colleagues comes along and he's worth like 9, not maybe 10 figures, like a lot of money. Um, he flies his own jet. He, he is a pilot, right? And, uh, we're walking over there and she said, well, see, so-and-so didn't, didn't pay valet. And I said, I said something, he goes, yeah, I'm, I'm too cheap to pay valet. I'm not gonna pay for valet. And I said to him, uh, yeah, someone that writes $50,000 jet fuel, uh, checks every month can't call themselves cheap. And then he just paused and he kind of giggled to himself, like— but, but my point of that story is, is that money was no object to him. He could literally buy whatever he wanted, but he wasn't going to pay for valet. And that, that That theme is true in every human. Like, you know, you're, you're going to run into people that are going to say, I'm not going to pay you for that because they don't value it. And that's totally fine.

And that's like the story how you and I both put workshops and courses on a credit card because we're like, for me, it was $2,500. And I'm like, that's a lot of money, but it was so worth it to me because I truly believe what it was going to do for my business and my life. And Thank God I was right. But to your point, then I won't spend $30 on a valet. Like, but I will though. I mean, I'm like, my wife and I are the same where she's like, no, we'll just park 4 blocks away and walk. I'm like, I'd rather spend $30 to be parked right here for the convenience of it. But yeah, that's, that's so true. It's, it's really up to the person back to what you said, your clients are going to determine your price or your value., or what they'll pay you for, for, for what you're providing for them. It's, it's not on you to feel like I'm worth $5,000. I'm worth $10,000. If your clients say you are, then you are.

That's, that's correct. And the people that won't pay you what, what you want, I'm not going to say what you're worth because who knows what you're worth, what you're asking for, what you have, whatever you're asking for is they absolutely 100% won't value what you do. And, and it's the, it's that, that, that paradox. Like, the, the amount that people pay sets the perceived value. It's, it's like, um, Mercedes-Benz back in the '70s. They were new to the U.S. market. Uh, one year they didn't do a model change, they just doubled their price, and their market share soared. Why? Because now they're a luxury But the product didn't change.

Oh, I guess I didn't know that story. I love that.

Yeah. But that's what I'm saying is that if I pay you a lot of money, I obviously value it. Yep. But if I pay you a little amount of money, I don't value it.

Oh, let me make a point about people who won't pay your price or won't pay what you're asking is they're not a good client then. They're not a good fit for whatever you're doing. That's a great lesson that I learned is that If somebody's trying to haggle a price with you or nickel and dime you, for me, that's not a good fit. That's not somebody I want to work with because if it's going to be an ongoing project, they're going to be a pain in the ass. And I'm just at a point in my life and my work, dude, I just want to be happy. I want to be full of gratitude and joyful. I don't want to feel miserable. And I've worked with clients I knew were not a good fit or I lowered my price to work it for them in their budget. And it's a freaking nightmare. And you can't be desperate to be like, oh my gosh, I need a project. I have to be, so I'm going to lower my price and get it. And then the soul sucking that happens to you is just not worth it. So if somebody starts saying, oh, that's, that's too expensive, or can you, can you, can you make it less? I mean, like, I can make it more. Like, it's just that they're not going to be a good fit and they're going to be a pain in the ass to work with. And I, I can't, I can't emphasize this enough. You want to work with people that you enjoy working with. It just makes your life so much more fun. I look forward to working with my clients. I don't dread any— dude, I love Mondays. Mondays are my favorite day because I like get to go back to like working with people and, and getting back to work. And, but when you have those nightmare clients because they're not a good fit, it's just, it sucks. So if they won't pay your price, it's okay. You don't have to lower it. Just find somebody that will. They're out there. There's somebody out there who's doing a $500,000 to $800,000 wedding.

Exactly, exactly. Chris Doe told a story on LinkedIn, uh, recently about how someone had— he was— and I don't know if this was a current thing or something happened in the past, but the, the budget, uh, that the— he got, was $100,000, you know, an RFP type thing. Yeah. And, uh, he, uh, submitted his bid for like $118,000 or $128,000, and, uh, they came back and said, we— didn't you read that the, the budget was $100,000? And he goes, well, look, I, I know how this is going to go down. You're going to want to make changes as this project goes and you're going to come back and then we're going to have to adjust it and then we're going to have to renegotiate the price. And he said, I know how all this works. I've done this a long time, so I'm just building that into the proposal. And my price is, you know, what it is. And they sat there and contemplated it and they're like, yeah, you're right. And they took the price, right? So even what they say is the price isn't necessarily the price. I give you I give you one more example, and I've shared this on the show before. When I was early on and I still thought that hourly pricing was the thing to do, I had somebody came to us and they had not done their taxes in a couple of years. And they said, well, what would you charge us to get it up to speed? And I said, well, you know, it's going to be $100 an hour for the bookkeeping. And he flips his lid. He's like, I don't even pay my attorney $100 an hour. And I'm like, okay. And so I went back and I sat there and I thought, okay, what's worst case scenario?

We—

I don't know what I'm getting into, but what's the worst case scenario? And then I like added 20% to it and I gave him a price. I don't remember what it was, $3,000, $4,000. And he goes, okay. But the thing is, he ended up paying more because I didn't do $100 an hour, right? He ended up paying more than if I charged him hourly. But yep, that's, that's humans. We're, we're completely irrational, but we think we're rational.

How many times has that happened to you where you've given a price to somebody and they're like, oh, that's way outside my budget, or that's crazy, or, you know, and you just walk away like, okay, you know, best of luck to you. I can refer you to somebody, or, you know, you try to help them, but they walk away because your price is so outrageous. And then they go find somebody on the cheap cheap and it's a disaster. And then they come back to you and they're like, well, I worked with somebody and it wasn't good. All the damn time.

All the damn time.

You're just like, wow, I've really showed my value now. Like you get what you pay for. It's so true. Yeah, that happens to me all the time.

Yeah, we could talk about pricing for days. Graham, how do people find Focus Films if they want to learn more?

Yeah, the website is focusfilms.com, and then I am always active on LinkedIn. So connect with me on LinkedIn and send me a message, follow me, connect with me. I love to— I just, I love networking on LinkedIn, always trying to build up my followers and connections. And I think I'm at almost 6,000 now, which I— for me, I think that's pretty awesome. That is pretty good. I'm not a 30,000, 50,000 follower guy, but hey, 6,000, that's pretty good.

It's a curated list.

It is a curated list. It's all, I mean, it's all attorneys and healthcare people and marketing people. It's my people. It's my ideal clients.

Yeah, absolutely. Listeners will have those links in the show notes. If you like what you heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, hit that little message button, shoot us a message, tell us what you'd like to hear. And I'll get rid of Graham.

Until next time. They don't like the naughty words.

This is not as bad as it's been. So until next time, ta-ta for now.