You Have to Earn It: Vince Quinn

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Welcome to another episode of The Profitable Creative, the only place on the interwebs where you will learn how to turn your passion into profit. I am your host, Christian Brim. Special shout out to our one listener in Cicero, Illinois. It's a great name. I don't know where that is, but thank you for listening. Uh, joining me today, Vince Quinn of SBX Productions, or is it— yes, Productions. I did that right?

Yeah, you did. You nailed it.

I started to question myself. Uh, welcome, Vince.

Yeah, Christian, thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

So, uh, why don't you tell the audience, uh, a little bit about who Vince Quinn is and what he does?

Yeah, so Vince Quinn is a video game nerd, uh, a podcast obsessive and somebody that likes to believe that he's a good time at parties. But deep down, day to day, what I'm doing is I am in a lot of ways helping businesses grapple with how a podcast operates. And for a lot of people, I think the challenge is when people get into podcasting, they think big audience, big views, the widest possible net and sponsorship revenue. And, uh, obviously, like, if you're building a show that's for your business, it's the complete opposite path. You're, you're going to a very specific kind of person with very specific topics. All of your intent of who you invite on and how often you have people on— everybody thinks they should have a guest every episode. That's not the best path for everybody. So, you know, it's, it's like really getting people to understand Strategically, okay, yes, there's a lot of things you can do. What are the best things? And then systematically laying that out for people and helping them build a show that really works for them and their business.

I love that. We're going to dig into that a little further. Uh, what did you do before that?

So I did sports talk radio for 10 years.

Ah, very nice.

Yeah. So I'm a Philly guy and grew up obsessed with the Eagles and the NFL, like pretty much everybody else around here. And so when I got out of college, initially I had a degree in TV and radio, and I thought I was going to do comedy and like write advertisements or do a late night show or I don't know, like anything in TV and entertainment. And I ended up getting a promotions job at the local sports radio station, which is one of the biggest sports stations in the country. It's actually where the sports format really started. So it was the second one after WFAN in New York. So I got started there and, you know, being a sports nut and seeing that all of these shows are entertaining people and all the, you know, crazy radio stuff that happens, running big events and having weird crazy guests in studio and being around sports felt like a natural fit. So, uh, yeah, I started from the promotions team and then I worked my way eventually into being a nationally syndicated host. And very quickly, uh, yeah, and, and I quickly realized that radio is a dangerous business to be in for the future. And I saw where podcasting was going, and I had, you know, I had the option to make a bet, and I made it on podcasting, and I left.

So when, when did you do that?

So that was about 5 years ago is when I made that decision.

Did you start out just doing your own show, or did you start out with SBX?

So I started out with a different production company. There was a company that they were a studio space. So they weren't really a— they weren't strategists in any way, right? It was, come in, here's studio space, you can rent it out, we'll record the show, edit it, upload, and manage the feed. So I got started there, uh, but all the shows, it was, you know, other people who wanted to do sports shows and build their brand that way but, but didn't have a following and didn't have a business behind it. Or, here's all these crazy things that happened to us at the bar, and you know what I mean? It was, it was those kinds of shows. So when you're running a studio that's built on people paying to use that space, and you're also doing this, you know, as COVID's going on, right? It was, it was messy. It was, it was really messy and ugly, and it was a bad model, frankly. And, and the business was dying as I was there.

And I had to start— you were, you were a partner in this, an investor, or were you?

So I was on the verge of being a partner. We were talking about partnership actively. And as I was behind the scenes and, and Honestly, seeing some of the things that was going on from the guy who had started that studio, I realized this was not the best fit for me either. And eventually, now it's me and one other guy that run SBX, and we've been doing that for a couple of years now.

So when— where did you get the idea of SBX? Was that right out of the gate, or did you kind of refine it as you, as you work through it?

Oh, definitely refinement. Because the thing is, I had no business experience whatsoever when I got into this. I just— because I was late night when I was doing radio. It was a lot of late night, overnight, weekend, holidays. So I wasn't around salespeople, even with the national show. Like, I went— it was so bad that I went to the salespeople with the nationally syndicated radio show and said, look, I realize we lost a sponsor in this one time slot. I'm happy to work with your salespeople in any way to get a deal there and just let me know. I'm very flexible. And they ignored me and had no interest in actively working with me to land a sponsor, which was crazy. Um, so I— it was, it was things like that. I'm like, what am I even doing here if they're not going to work with me as the, as the weekend overnight guy on 225 stations? If you're not going to work with me to help sell, like, what is any of this? Um, so yeah, so I was completely removed from, from business, and even when I tried to get involved with it from the radio side, they rejected me. Because they didn't think I was a big enough brand, I guess, at the time. So I had to figure out everything on my own. And really, I would say the idea for SBX came as I was at that initial company, that initial production studio, and it was like 1 in the morning and we're all sitting around talking about how this thing is a sinking ship. And I really told them all, I was like, look, everyone that comes into this studio is a carnival goldfish because as soon as we take the fish home, it dies. And We just can't live this way. Like, it has to be something else. And so that was the beginning of the idea of, well, you know, businesses want to be involved in podcasting, have podcasts, but they don't necessarily have all of the hosting skills and the creative things to get the most out of it. So even from there, it took me a long time to truly get where we are now, but that's really when it started. I would say that was about 4 years ago. Was when I had the idea that things really need to change and we need to work with businesses on their podcasts.

Yeah, it's interesting. I was actually— my wife was listening to the radio over the weekend and I hate it. I don't listen to radio anymore. I used to be an avid sports talk listener, but, you know, my listening habits have changed for sure. But, you know, I was listening to them and they were like, well, did you miss the morning show? You can find us on the podcast app. And I'm like, oh, that's interesting. I hadn't thought that they were going that route to distribute their show. And there's— I also had a personal friend that was in the radio space. He was— he bought and sold radio towers and cellular towers. And so— and this goes back to Good, good God, 30 years he was in that space with the high-definition transition. That's when he got into it, when they had to replace all the antenna. And he had an engineer that, you know, was real smart about figuring out relocating towers and picking up larger populations. Anyway, I watched him as the radio industry just cratered And then it kind of had a resurgence. And I guess you would say it's probably stabilized now. I don't know. What's your opinion? Hey listeners, are you ready to turn your passion into profit? Then grab a copy of Profit First for Creatives. Click the link in the show notes to purchase a copy. And if you're not ready to make that Full Commitment, you can download a free copy of the first chapter. Check it out right now.

Yeah, I think they're trying to recover, but there's been so much damage. And that was part of it too with the pandemic, and part of that being a transition period where I was still taking a few part-time gigs. I'd left the national show, but I was taking some part-time gigs just to make some, you know, a couple extra bucks as I was working on the studio. And what happened was, uh, so much of the listening habits changed because people weren't in the car anymore, right? They're not commuting as much. So, and now people still not commuting as much. So all of those things piled up. So your listenership has gone down, your sponsorship revenue has gone down, and they're behind the game when it comes to a lot of the other creators because, you know, they're, they're not in talent development as much as they're into talent acquisition.

So yeah, yeah, that, that's interesting because I— my last guest, it hasn't been released yet, but, uh, his name is Taro Koki, and, and he's about my age, and he started doing, um, video Japanese— what do they call it? Like Fast and the Furious? What do they call that type of racing? Street racing?

I don't know. Oh yeah.

Anyway, he started doing videos. This is pre-YouTube and, and, and selling them on DVD. And then YouTube hit. But in any case, he's, he's now worked with a media company called Racer that does, you know, all kinds of motorsport content. But he was explaining to me he's, he sold his business and now he's going and finding creators that have a following, that have a YouTube show, whatever, podcast, and trying to bring them into the racer fold. So doing exactly what you're talking about, which is talent acquisition, like, you know, and yeah, fascinating stuff. What do you call that? What do you call that? It's something like glide, slide.

Oh, drifting.

Drifting. Thank you. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Japanese cars. Yeah. Racing Honda Civics. I don't know. I've never seen a Fast and Furious movie, so I don't know.

Um, yeah, it's the second one out of what I think will be like 12 or 13 by the time the series is done.

Yes. Okay. So, um, I want to start with a story of my podcast and then you can tell me what I did wrong. Um, we published a book. I published a book last year in March. Of 2024. And I went on some podcasts to promote the book. And as I was a guest on these shows, I didn't like the conversations I was having. Nothing wrong with the shows. I just, it wasn't the conversation I wanted. And so I said, I'm going to start a podcast. And my marketing person said, of course you are. And so we launched it with no idea what we were doing. I knew I didn't want to do the engineering part, so I've outsourced that from the outset. But as far as like producing the show, finding guests, having, you know, some plan to the content, nothing. And I still don't, you know, 10 months into it. But what I have come to figure out along the way is a little bit of what you alluded to at the beginning, which is this thing is never going to be a sponsor-driven podcast. I mean, it's possible. I'm not saying I'm not going to not take the money if it comes, but that's not its intent. Its intent from our standpoint is to raise visibility of me and credibility of me and connect with other creatives, other creative entrepreneurs, have the conversations. You know, my intent with this conversation or this podcast is to interview a whole bunch of different creative entrepreneurs to find out how they made money and what some of those roadblocks and challenges they had along the way and how they solved it. Um, and with the hope that that experience will help others. Um, so what am I doing wrong? I'm not doing anything wrong.

I don't know. Well, I mean, first off, if you're happy and the show's doing things that you want, then, you know what I mean? Like, a lot of it is subjective. Yeah. So that's, that's part of the beauty of it, honestly. I love that it can be so specific and so different in terms of what the goals are that people have out of it. I would say right now, I guess if I was trying to figure out anything that's wrong, I'd say what's your biggest frustration with the show?

Well, it's interesting watching the download numbers and, you know, for the first 6 months it was nothing. And then it's definitely over the last 90 days, not a complete hockey stick, but definitely growing the right direction. But You know, I think if I wanted something more right now, it would be more feedback. Like, you know, I don't know. There's— you don't know anything about your listeners. You don't know whether they like the content or not. I have the text feedback on the website, but I've received none. So I don't know if people like it or don't like it, what they would like better. All I'm going with is looking at, okay, well, this episode did well, but I don't know why it did well. Is it because they had a good social media following versus, you know, and they cross-promoted it, like, or the content was better? Like, so I guess the feedback loop is really what I'm lacking that I'd like.

Yeah. Well, in a lot of ways, because that is a frustration. And on some level, I deal with that too, because my show is so specific. I mean, my, my show is a podcast that's helping business owners with their podcast. Like, I'm, I'm a very narrow lane, right? So, so it's like, okay, well, yeah, I put some stuff out occasionally. I'll try things, and I'm still developing it with a call and response in the newsletter, for example.

Is this an email newsletter?

So yeah, I have an email newsletter, and then I double it on LinkedIn. So I'll do the exact— just about the exact same newsletter on LinkedIn, but I stagger it a couple of days because that also gives people incentive to sign up sign up for the actual newsletter. Hey, you could have gotten this 2 days ago directly to your inbox. You should sign up for that, right? Um, so, so I do that. But the things that I do as well, and I actually just happened to release an episode about it this week, is getting our top 10 most recent episodes, or top 10 best episodes of the show, and evaluating what that says from the audience perspective. What did people click play on, you know, and how many of those were guest episodes How many were me speaking on my own? Because I tend to do a mix of that. So it's about a 50-50 split.

And what do you determine that that's— I mean, like you said, it's not necessarily for everybody, but I've done one solo show and I know I need to do some more, but I haven't yet. So how do you determine whether people want guests or they want to hear the host?

Well, I think on a fundamental level, for the most part, I would say people want to hear you more than the guest. Really? And yeah. And the, and here's the reason why I say that. Part of it is the guests generally, especially when you're thinking about how the podcast, uh, podcast landscape works, a lot of people are guesting on multiple shows and there's a lot of shows that carry the same general kind of format. So you might get a little circular in the kinds of conversations that you're having. And so people, they, they can get access to that information if they want it. And frankly, if they follow that person, they already follow that person. They have an understanding of what their beliefs are, and they might be subscribed to the newsletter, and they're following them on all these different platforms. Like, that person has an audience. And what typically happens is you don't get the new audience very often by bringing in a guest because the people already get them other places. Like, you get the audience because you've guested in other places, essentially, right? Like, it's I've gone to this platform where people had no idea who I was. I crushed that interview. I gave them all this value. And now as a result of that, they're going, oh, this guy gets it, and they stick with you. And then now that they know you have a show, they'll come back and they'll listen to you. And like, you reinforce that again and again with you doing these episodes where it's either you're the star of the show and you're dictating everything, and, uh, it's a, it's a major back and forth. Between you and the guest, like it is a real conversation versus the interview where it's like 90/10 of just like, how'd you get started? Yeah. All right. See you 5 minutes later. So like that, yeah. Like that builds it. And then just the idea of, yeah, you've got something to say that's valuable, that's within what the show covers and what people are interested in and you've got expertise in. You riff on that for, you know, as long as need be and people continue to build trust. Because— but that's it. Like, this is the only place you can get yourself unrestricted for however long you want to dictate episodes. You're, you're limited by other people everywhere else you go. And so this is your freedom, this is your opportunity to really own the platform. And it's— I'd say it's— yeah, so going into any of this, evaluating shows, value yourself over the guest because it's your platform to build your audience.

That's, I think, excellent feedback. Um, do you know Alex Sanfilippo?

So I have not met Alex yet, but I will actually be a featured speaker for Podcasting Made Simple in July. So I believe he interviews me after my speech plays. So I think I'll— yeah, so I will meet Alex very shortly. I'm very much aware of Alex.

Okay, well, his, uh, his comment, uh, is that, you know, and he tracks a bunch of statistics on his software, but that the cutoff for success is 100 episodes. So like, you got to have 100 episodes. You don't commit to having a podcast unless you're going to commit to having 100, because that's the point at which you'll really see traction. What do you think of that?

So in a true sense, yes. And if anything, in some cases, what I've heard, it's even longer than that. So I spoke with somebody recently, his name's Dave Jackson, and Dave's been around for a while, uh, in the Podcasting Hall of Fame, has a book about audience growth and growing podcasts. And he said from all the people that he spoke to, a lot of times to like truly have an audience where it felt like it was a sizable chunk of people, in a lot of cases it was something that could be sponsorable, things like that, it was about 3 years. So I, I think they're both right in terms of like the commitment and time, right? Like, this doesn't happen overnight, and it's not like it used to be where it's a limited number of shows out there and it's— you, you can just get a bunch of people that stumble into your show and you can blow up. Like, the, the market's super competitive, so you have to earn it. And I think that longevity builds the trust as well. People just know you'll be there. I don't want to invest all my time in a creator if I don't think they're going to be around in 6 weeks, you know what I mean? Like, there has to be some sense of this person is serious, they're playing for keeps, they believe in the platform that they're building, and I'm willing to support that because I know they'll be here. I like them, I trust them, and I don't want to go find somebody else, you know what I mean? Like, that, that search to find somebody, I think, in itself is exhausting, and people don't really have the time to do it.

Yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense. I, I Yeah. And, and, and I think, you know, the, the way, uh, popularity works, I guess, is, is that it does take time and it is more of a hockey stick curve. There, there aren't overnight successes. But to going— I want to go back to the point you made at the beginning is that, you know, if you're doing this for a business, it's not about the gross numbers. It really depends. Like, you're doing a podcast for businesses that have a podcast or want a podcast. You know, there may be, I don't know, 100,000 out there, that potential market. And so you're dealing with 100,000. You're not dealing with 300 million, which is, you know, or 350, the US population, right? That's That's not your target. Um, so how do you approach that when you're working with your, your clients?

Yeah. So for me, like when it starts with my show and the overall philosophy, part of it is what I'm selling is high ticket, right? Like I'm ultimately selling production services on a base level. So, hey, I can do some editing, show management, things like that. If I'm doing that on an ongoing basis, as much as I try to keep rates affordable, cause I don't want to run people out of business trying to promote their business. I don't think that's useful to anybody. Right. So I keep it relatively inexpensive. But when you think about what that piles up to over the course of a year, that's a good sale for me. You know what I mean? So it's a high-ticket sale. And same thing with coaching services that I offer as well. So I can advise people, and then if they want to DIY stuff, great. And then they need me, they call me, and I can take over production and do that for them. So that's the idea for me, is I'm relentlessly improving myself again and again in this space that I work with people who are the face of the business, your coaches, your consultants. I've got content that's in backlog that I can give them for reference on problems they have. Um, they— I'm being very matter of fact of how I do it for my business. So I'm not just talking it, I'm actually doing it and giving behind the scenes examples on the show of our exact numbers and all the things that I'm doing. So yeah, transparency is a big part of it, but it's also relentlessly diving into that demographic and refining that demographic because I know who it's for. And as a result of that, I think one of the biggest evolutions that I'm getting now is really industry connections and an understanding of the industry landscape. Because before, when I first got the business started and was doing this kind of work, it was a lot of, okay, I just need to know what this business is and what kind of money we have. And like, yeah, I just gotta know which way is up. Right. So we've gotten that settled. We've gotten a lot better with expenses and like, we're, we're in a good place there. But now it's— I haven't had the time coming from radio, getting into podcasting and trying to survive in podcasting. I didn't know who the podcasters were. Like, I didn't know the other shows that were out there. I didn't know networks. I didn't know the advertising groups, like all of those different things, uh, the major newsletters, events. So now I've been spending a lot more time of what are those places, you know, am I a good fit for those? Are they useful to me? How can I build relationships there, tie the content in into all of those things and, and continue to establish myself as a recognized name in the industry, and at the same time, connect with more people and expand my networks for my client base. Um, because the, the other side of the coin, and I guess this is really what I'm getting at, is it's not just necessarily talking to people who can be a client for you at some point and solving their problems and giving them value, but the other side is there's a lot of other people that could really use you as a resource for their business. Because they don't service the client in a way that you can. And so to be able to meet people, I've had times now where I've had conversations and nothing's come through yet, but I'll tell you, I've had 4 different conversations now and 2 are ongoing with people who have podcasts that they help people with, but they don't want to do startup services or they don't want to do the engineering or they don't want to do the day-to-day management. They just want to set it up and then pass it along. So like there's different things now where people are going, oh, like, You coach people on how to host a show. You can make them a better host and craft the content better. That would be great. I hate doing that, you know? So it's the same thing. It's like just diving deeper and deeper and deeper into that exact lane and positioning myself as an authority within other people in my industry. And at the same time, building more relationships with my target demographic.

Who is your target?

So yeah, it's a lot of coaches, consultants, people who are the business. Um, real estate has absolutely been interested in what I do. They understand visibility. They're usually working with the people directly and helping them find spaces, whether it's commercial real estate or you're talking about first-time homebuyers, you know what I mean? Like, they, they get it. So it's those kinds of people who know that the show is useful, but, and, and typically have a show. Like, that's how narrow I've gotten where now I don't even bother making content at this moment for people who are starting a show. It's not what this show is. This show is for people who have a show. And need help fixing it. They, they want it to be more. They've already made the commitment to the show and now they want it to be better. That's who it's for. Because everybody else, there's such a churn, you know.

Yeah.

Uh, so when 47% of shows don't make it past 3 episodes, even, you know what I mean, like by the time people find out about me, they've already— the show already died 6 months before. So I, I don't focus on them. So yeah, it's, it's It's those kinds of people who have an existing show, want more out of it, know it can help their business, and they're not seeing the results that they want.

How long did it take you to get to that target market?

Like, uh, 4 and a half years. Uh, you know what I mean? 4 years. Yeah. It was, it was really just a couple of months before I launched the show.

So, and I launched Notes, uh, yesterday.

Uh, yeah, it was, uh, yeah, I launched the show in October of last year. I really believed in the idea. I mean, I guess it was really about a a year and a half ago. It was about the beginning of, uh, 2024 was when I thought like, this is where I think it needs to be. But I had to trim so much fat of other things that we were doing as a business that was just not related to it. So I did— I had to really spend the first 6 months, 8 months burning my business down in order to properly rebuild it around where I see the vision of the company going.

And that sucks. I know from experience, right? You know, but, and that's what I tell people on the show. If I could, if I could, if I could just open their brains and pour this belief, it's not knowledge, like they would believe this, they would take it and believe it, that the sooner you are clear clear on the problem you solve and what the value of your solution is, the better your business is. And that's not to say that that may not evolve over time, but it's the mentality. And maybe, maybe this is changing, but for the most part, the The belief is, well, I just need to get bigger. I just need to do more. And what that leads to is a jumbled mess. And then you've got to, like you said, burn it down. You've got to deconstruct it. And that's a humbling experience. It's an expensive experience. It's a depressing experience sometimes. But, you know, having that clarity I wish I'd figured it out sooner, um, than I did. But sounds like you are ahead of me on that.

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's just one of those things where I had no ex— I just had no experience and I had to figure it out. Like, I had to live it. But I was, I was really put into a pressure situation having left radio. I mean, it just— in part of the idea of like, I left a nationally syndicated show to do this, and I was I was 29 years old when I got that show. Like, that was a miracle for me to get that far. And I had people that were mentors of mine in the business literally begging me, they're like, Vince, don't do it. Don't leave. And I had— I just felt like I had no choice. And so, like, to have all of that pressure behind me of, like, I made this big decision and just still really believing in where this industry is going, as much as it's changed, even from when I joined in 2020 to now. It was just one of those things where I'm like, I need to make this work and I believe in myself to make this work. And ultimately, I'm okay with making mistakes and having to burn stuff down and, and whatever. But as long as I'm getting in the right direction, that's really all I care about. Like, is this a good business? Does it make sense? Am I good at it and giving people good results? And if I'm doing all of those things, then it'll work itself out.

Yeah, yes. When you, uh, started the business, you said you didn't have a lot of business background. What were some of the biggest surprises, I guess? The, the, that like, oh shit, I didn't really know that was a thing.

Yeah, I mean, first off, just everything going into bookkeeping and taxes and like, you know what I mean? I luckily I never like skimped out. I don't have any issues with the IRS. My father-in-law is an accountant, so I got, I got some help there. Yes. But I mean, the first time it was tax season and I had been quote unquote keeping our books, I mean, oh my God, what a rude awakening. That was, that was a nightmare. So once, once that catastrophe was over, one of the first things we did was get a bookkeeper. Bookkeeper. Like, without the first investment really, period, in the business was we got a bookkeeper to just completely get that off our plate. So that, that was great. But then other stuff, it's on some level, I think it's how human a lot of— how every— how, let me say, let me reset, how human every business is. And you realize no matter how big or small it is, ultimately it's run by people. And they're not all these big, perfect things with all of these great methodologies. There's so many inefficiencies. There's, there's plenty of people who frankly aren't very good at a job, uh, but have a senior position or people who run a business and have major blind spots. And so like there's all these different things that I just realized sort of the humanity of business. And that's also made me reflect a ton on how I run it. Um, you know, over-analysis to death on occasion, but yeah, I really think that human element and understanding a lot of ways that the, the landscape can be what you make it, but you just need to develop the, the savvy and, and be willing to take risks and, and have belief in yourself to go and sell it.

Yeah, I, I'm impressed that your first hire, uh, was a bookkeeper because that's not usually the, uh, choice that most entrepreneurs, especially creative entrepreneurs, make. But it shows that I think I'm going to guess. I don't know. But like, it wasn't so much the pain of going through that first year tax season. Certainly there was that, but there was like this, you know what? I, this doesn't make me money. I don't know. I, it's, it's, I could learn it, but I know I don't want to learn it. And it would be time away from doing something that does make me money. Is that a correct assessment?

Oh, 100%. Yeah, it was, it was absolutely that. And just not even clearly understanding how much money we were making or spending, you know what I mean? We couldn't even begin to do the blueprint because our accounting was terrible. So we just had to go and fix all of that so we could actually understand what we were dealing with month to month.

Yeah. And I, you know, I tell people I get this statement, oh, you're an accountant, you must be good at math. And I'm like, eh, I'm okay with math. If you've ever known a true mathematician, you understand that like, no, you don't know math. Some of that shit is just bizarre. Like, I mean, it, in any case, I said, you know, the math we use in accounting is arithmetic. And I learned that in second grade. You know, I think the struggle most businesses have with finances and accounting is they don't approach it the way, the way they should, which is you're learning a language. It is the language of business. And, you know, what the numbers tell you is what happened in your business. It tells you a story. And I think that's extremely powerful. If you want your business to be profitable and/or you want your business to grow. Because if you don't know what the story is, you can't change the story. You can't repeat the story. You know, if it's something that you, you know, I mean, it's, you're just, you're just walking around blind. And that's oftentimes a very scary place to be.

For sure. It's, yeah, it's terrifying. And that's the thing when you're making all of these decisions, like the, the fact of the matter, you're a bootstrap creative business and every dollar you have counts. And in a business like mine where it's all these different subscriptions to all of these different services and trying to make sure that we're pricing all of that appropriately. And what are our margins for a given episode of a show if we sign a client and do this kind of work? Like you, you, yeah, you really need to know all of that stuff to the exact dollar and make sure that you maximize it so you can, because, because I mean, think of all the tools that come out, right? I think this is one of the biggest creative problems. There's so many tools. All the time that are coming out and offering all these different alternative solutions. And it can be a rabbit hole that drives you crazy. But once in a while, you eventually come across something where you go, oh no, this is really good. We're going to buy this today. And like, by doing this, uh, one, we can afford it. Two, we can either get rid of subscription A, B, or C, and we can also charge more because it's going to give us this kind of value. And, and to have all of that in your back pocket and to easily reference it and move forward is it like, yeah, the speed of decision-making just gets so much better. Yeah. And yeah, I love that.

Yeah. And, and I, in my, in my book, I talk about that shiny object syndrome and creatives have it bad. I have it bad. Uh, and you know, whether it's equipment or software or an employee, it doesn't really matter. If you're going to spend money, you, you need to know exactly how that spending that money is going to make you money. And if you're not clear, if it doesn't go from point A to point B, don't do it. Um, because you, like you said, you end up in a rabbit hole and you have all this stuff and you're still not making money.

Yeah. And, and that's one of the fascinating things too when it comes to a podcast that I think people are drawn to is I'm not getting numbers, so I'm going to advertise the show. But the problem is if you're going to advertise the show, but you're not speaking to the right people and you're not getting the processes in place where people are signing up for your newsletter and booking you for calls, then you're advertising a show that's not working. So you can get more numbers, but you're not going to convert it.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So like, yeah, it's one of those things where it sounds nice in practice, but you need, you need to see the growth in those small organic numbers up front just to prove you're in the right place, you've got the right message, it's resonating with the right people, and then hit the gas.

That's a very good point. I think that, you know, podcasting is no different than any other marketing media. Uh, you— there's a lot of people out there that will pitch you vanity metrics, and at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Uh, the vanity metrics don't pay the bills. And it, it goes kind of back to what you said, like, do— being strategic about it. Like, what is the purpose of this podcast? What is the purpose of this Google AdWords? What's the purpose of this Facebook post? Like, you gotta have an intent. You have to understand what it is you're trying to do. Only then can you evaluate it. Like, you know, otherwise, how do you know? Well, we had more traffic to our site. Great. What does that do for you?

Nothing. Yeah. So you have to do it all the time. Like, for me, I've been lucky because I had a mentor who suggested that we do quarterly evaluations for the business. So every 3 months, me and my business partner, we sit down, we block the whole day off, we don't talk to anybody about anything other than us, and we've got a whole agenda of things we want to cover. We evaluate all of it, talk about our progress, things we want to do in the next 3 months, and we keep it moving. And to have that kind of mentality and be able to apply it to the show, like our own show as well, and do a separate evaluation just on how is our content, what needs work, what things should we prioritize next to get that show to be in a better place, and tie those things together with the show and the business. Like, it's, it's been such a relief. And, and part of the benefits of having a streamlined production process that's recorded ahead, so we don't have to worry about getting the episode out. We've got 8 weeks worth of episodes if we need it, right? And so, okay, let's take a few weeks off and let's focus on us and let's develop the, the things behind the scenes that need to be fixed. And then let's get back to episodes with a renewed understanding of, here's what our top episodes were. Maybe that says A, B, and C about what our audience is interested in. Let's get more topics about those things. Let's get clips from those episodes that did well or didn't do well. Let's, let's try them and repost them and see how they do. Like, let's, let's do that deeper research and try to build a stronger connection. And like But that's what the evaluation provides.

I love that. So how do you, how did you, how do you still, or how have you in the past approached your pricing? Like, how did you determine what to charge?

Yeah. So it's interesting because I've had so many struggles and changes with this. I think the ultimate problem is, and I really say this for creative people who do podcast editing, I think it's a failing business. I, I really think it's a terrible place to be, and frankly, I do not invest much in it, as much as we do it ourselves. Like American Business, it's me and my co-owner that do all of this work, um, so we're running everything right now. We don't outsource at the moment, and when we have outsourced, we've outsourced American, just, just because that's people we know, and, and we just believe in supporting local people who need local jobs. But it, it's tough when you look out there and people want expert help and they're gonna pay $10 an hour for that or $5 an hour for that. So like, so from a pricing standpoint, I had to decide that there's a floor for editing and we're not gonna get much out of it. And I'm okay with that. I, I built the pricing out as this allows us to maintain the connection with people and make sure they have quality with the editing. But really, I use the editing as a means to get to coaching. And that's the value of the business. So as much as I can say, hey, well, we'll edit these episodes and every so often we'll give you a free coaching session to go with that, great. Now ideally I'm accelerating that and they need more coaching, which could lead to more production, but really it's about that strategy and building and helping them with their sales. So that's how we position everything. And then it really comes down to how involved is the operation, how much manpower does it actually take, because it can range significantly. If you're an audio show with video clips, for example, that's very different than a video show with an audio show that's fully edited for the ahs and ums, and you have a thumbnail, and you're editing for time and clarity, and you have a transcript, and you know what I mean. So it's like, I, I try to have some basic benchmarks of this is this, this is that, this is that, And I make some customizations based on it because maybe they have a marketing person that does the clips for them. Cool. You know what I mean? But I have to understand all of that before we get into it. So it's a lot of upfront, uh, getting an exacting understanding of the project and what they want from us and what's required. And then, yeah, using those benchmarks to give them the, the right kind of pricing from there.

Yeah, and, and I, I find that interesting because I would use an analogy to bookkeeping, and I'll set you aside as the anomaly. Most people don't see any value in bookkeeping, but it is impossible to do any of the other things that they value, such as, you know, are our numbers good? Are we making money? What does the tax situation look like? Like All of those business decisions require sound bookkeeping, but no one wants to pay for bookkeeping. So you don't sell them bookkeeping. So, you know, that's kind of the thing is I've noticed like when our salesperson goes off subject and starts talking about the bookkeeping, it actually decreases the sales like because they do not value it. It. But, but they don't even understand why they need it. And so like, you're editing, yeah, you've got to have table stakes, there's got to be something that's listenable. You've got to have quality, a certain benchmark of quality. But that's not the real value that you provide. Right? That's, that's just table stakes.

Yeah. So it really comes down to, are your topics good? Are you talking to the right people? Are you delivering those topics? Well, if you're having guests on, are Are you interviewing them in a way that's getting the best result for you, the guest, and the audience? How are you maintaining those relationships afterwards? How are you promoting it all across everything with your business and integrating your offers and not explicitly selling but explaining what you do? You know, like, yeah, all of that stuff. The true art form of podcasting is really what we do. Like, that's, that's the strategy, the creative development, all the stuff that I do day to day. And yeah, everything else is just— that's, that's what people think they need, in part. It's like, hey, I need great editing. And it's like, I mean, sure, I'll give you great editing, but you know, here's what you— let me show you what—

well, at least they want it. Nobody wants bookkeeping. It's like going to the dentist. I mean, yeah, I know I have to go to the dentist, but nobody wants to.

Exactly. And everybody thinks they've got the greatest concept for the show and it is going to go viral and everybody wants to hear them speak and they are going to get sponsors. So they, they all— when everybody thinks that they've got that idea in their head, on some level, that's been the value of also talking to people who have a show and are finding frustrations with that show, because then it's like, oh yeah, so yeah, you already know, so let's, let's get after it.

You start with a startup, they don't know what they don't know, right? Like, it's kind of like, uh, that statistic, like, in America, 75% or so, some large percentage, think they're above average drivers. Yeah, well, I mean, the math's not mathing. Yep. Yeah. Vince, how do people find out more about you and working with SBX Productions?

Yeah, so best way to do it, listen to the podcast. It's Not Just Talking is the show. It's on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. And yeah, we're just talking about this all the time. So I'm just a total podcast nerd. And business nerd and, and getting into all that stuff. And yeah, you hear a lot about what we're doing day to day and, uh, the, you know, just how we think all this stuff should be done. So listen to It's Not Just Talking.

Yeah, perfect. Listeners, if you like what you've heard, please rate the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe to the podcast. If you don't like what you've heard, send us a message, let us know what you'd like to hear, and I'll replace Vince. Until then, ta-ta for now.