Episode 71 #100MasterCoaches​​ with Christoffel Sneijders

Welcome to the 100 Master Coaches series featuring master coaches from around the world. Let's journey together on this 100 Master Coaches series with your host, Coach Mel MCC. Christoffel is an ICF Master Certified Coach, clinical hypnotherapist, Clinical supervisor and founder of the Three Brains Theory. He is a visiting professor at the IE Business School and the author of the books Relationships: Which Brain Is Talking? and How Men and Women Fit: Finally Understand Your Partner with the Three Brains Theory. Now on to the show.

Hello, hello, and welcome to the 100 Master Coaches Show. Today, special guest all the way from Netherlands. He is none other than Christoffel Schneiders. So welcome to the show, my friend.

Thank you so much, Mel. And I love your pronunciation, the effort you take to pronounce it correctly. As I said, in Dutch, this is really a Dutch last name, and it is only for Dutch almost to pronounce it correctly.

So wow, well, thank you so much.

Okay, I'm really grateful to be in your show.

And I'm grateful that you're here today, Christoffel, in old-fashioned coaching style, right? Where would you like to begin today?

Where would I like to begin today? Now, what I like to start and say, what I would like to do is actually to give really valuable to our, to your listeners, to our listeners about, say, you're an extremely experienced MCC. I'm an MCC. We have a lot of coaching years behind us. That's right. How can we contribute to the coaching society and other people who listen?

Yeah.

Which besides the fun we have also the knowledge we gained in all those years.

Oh yeah.

And so that will be where I like to talk about.

Wonderful. And then, you know, like the song goes in The Sound of Music, let's start at the very beginning. It's a very good place to start.

So, absolutely. Julie Roberts, Julie, Julia, Julia, Julie Andrews.

There we go.

You see, we help each other right away to find the answers. They say, how did it begin? I'm going to disclose almost my age with it because in '97, that's 26 years ago, I joined a training company in Europe, in the Netherlands. They're Europe's number one, really top-notch quality, really number one, far from most in leadership and sales training. And coaching was a part of it. But—

Wow.

Less are done because it delivers less revenue.

Yes.

And I still remember how my coaching started because the first year I was struggling. I'm saying, I will not say the event terrible, as they say it in French, but say I don't always fit in all the custom-made suits. I like to also give your own idea about it.

That's good.

So the first year I was struggling with leadership and sales training, at least to fit in the company culture. And then we start to learn coaching and we were coaching colleagues. And at one moment the CEO is sitting there and a really senior consultant and me and let's say the other newbie are doing a coaching session and the newbie is half a year longer in the company. He's totally enthusiastic about coaching. So I think what's happening? And even those 2 guys who were always banging on me the last year, you're not doing good, you're not doing good, you don't fit, say you did actually a really good job. Wow, you have a talent for this. And I'm looking at all three of them and think, are you pulling my leg or something? The whole year I hear actually, fit in, yeah, fit in the culture, fit happening. And so I was really thinking, for what's happening? And probably I will hear now after this, this, I will get probably again a slap. I know they stayed enthusiastic, so I thought, okay, so maybe it's really true. So then on that moment, I still remember that I said, what did I do that was so good? Because I really didn't know what was so good about my coaching. And then the guy coach said, you know, you have a feeling actually what's really happening underneath. I said, so I say the words, but you have that insight what's happening underneath. So your question is actually not only what I say, but it's actually also what's happening inside me was how did I even put words on it?

Yeah.

And I look at him and said, how did I do that? I said, I don't know, you did it. So we had a laugh about it. But also one of the senior ministers said, Chris, yes, how do you actually do that? And I said, I don't know. I just really, I would say, connect with the guy and it comes up. And that little spark, the guy said, you connect with the guy.

Wow.

That's it. Yes, you're extremely good in that part, in really connecting with somebody. I said, okay. So that's how it started, my coaching. Because actually, if I came aware, hey, I'm good at something and they like it. Okay, I don't get a slap for this. This is a good one. And, you know, I stayed with that company for 9 years.

For 9 years, did you say?

Yeah, I stayed with the company for 9 years, left there also as one of the senior partners because after that I thought, hey, you find your strengths back again. You start fitting in, you come over, hey, these are my talents, this can I use. So yeah, so that's how it started.

You know, when you're saying that, what came to my mind was how often in the workplace where we hear feedback, right? Not so good one. And then suddenly we hear some good ones, right? And the good thing is you took the good ones and like, at least I'm good at something now. Finally, let's work on that, right? Let's work on that. Focus on that. But often, right, in organizations, especially those days where they are just really good at giving you this bad stuff every day, right? They just whack it on you.

Yeah.

But it's just amazing to hear that that made you want to stay because you had some affirmation about your belief with yourself on, you know, on your abilities and kind of gave you that, I don't know, spark, the impetus to kind of stay for that amount of years. So Just wanna bring that into the forefront of our conversation on how important that positive feedback it is, right? In that loop, right? When, when we're in organizations and maybe you have some thoughts on that, um, and how you've experienced that before.

It's beautiful that you, that you also take it out because it's true. But what we teach also our clients or work with our clients and coach them on. And positive feedback is so important. And I know, say, all the banging I got was to get me actually in their quality system on the right level. If you like to play for the number one team, you have to show number one behavior. That's what makes sense.

Yeah.

Yeah, but it is so true. But also when you give positive feedback, that at least that you give them personal quality of, hey, Does this fit in the company and how can we actually cherish that more? So that's the interesting thing is when we, I don't know how it's with you when you coach people, someone doing coaching also, I always ask them, hey, especially when we have a normal chat with the clients, what are you really good at? What do you really like in the company? How do they appreciate you?

That's that.

And then it's always interesting to hear. and sometimes sad to hear what people then respond back to and how much positive feedback they actually got. And I don't know how it's with you, but in, you know, the Gottman Institute is about relationships.

That's right.

They made once the equation, uh, they have positive, uh, reinforcement, uh, reinforcements and negative reinforcement. And to see a healthy relationship, it's a quote of 5 to 1, 5 positives, 1 negative. Actually, that, that's, that equation is almost the same also in companies.

Yeah.

You just go into a team or in a company and you're going to hear how many positive things they say to each other and how many say negative things. And you almost can put your finger right away on how long the team or the company actually will survive.

Absolutely. Good point there. And it's a very tricky one, isn't it? In a world of wanting to, uh, stay in the middle, the inclusivity and then appreciating diversity, all of that and how important that is today. There is also a need to speak the truth, isn't it? And I guess sometimes speaking the truth has its pros and cons. And sometimes if you speak it too strongly, it may seem like you are giving too much of a real feedback to people and there will be some pushback. So I don't know whether you've experienced that through your years. I'm just wondering.

Yes, I start laughing. As you could see, I'm Dutch. And the Dutch are famous for a couple of things. One of them is we could say their directness, what other people see as rude. We call it actually being honest.

Honest.

In the old Dutch, in the Dutch old culture, we were fighting water and those kinds of things. You did not have time to put a lot of politeness in your things. If the dike is breaking, you're not gonna say, hey, by the way, now water is up to my throat. Could you be so kind, please, if it's, if it really suits you to help me out? From that moment you're drowned. We Dutch are famous for, say, our directness. So when I immigrated to Australia, but it's also direct, I came aware that you have direct, you have Dutch direct. That's always— and when you're in Spain, you have, say, really politeness because the directness of a Dutch person in Spain is almost giving them a heart attack. It is there. So in feedback, giving feedback, one, for me, it's important also to come aware what kind of culture are you talking in.

Yeah.

And the Asian culture is different than Australian culture, as you know, Mel. Having said that, say, bringing honesty is for me, when you talk about, say, cultural leadership and it creates trust because I know that you speak the truth, even if it's nice or not nice. I know at least what I have when I talk to you.

Yeah.

And in that part, honesty, even if it's not nice, is amazing. But what I come away in my coaching, now there are 2 things extremely where I work with leaders, most of them. One is to become more heart-centered. So be a little bit not only about the facts and figures and about yourself, but also now how do you create a team? It's not only about you. And the second part is that people are more in the opposite and like to have the relationship and are afraid of rejection. So don't dare to actually do the hard talks like realignment, making strong decisions, because then they feel that they could hurt the relationship.

Yeah.

So they take the person and the topic then in one bowl instead of making, hey, behavior and person are 2 different things. And especially in the second one, for them, honesty is extremely hard because they can be honest in a positive way. I did the look at the average appraisal session at the end of the year. People say if somebody's not performing, let's write good because then we don't have a hard discussion. And then the person after a couple of years has to be fired because of malperformance.

Yeah.

But then the whole dossier is actually not building up in that story because nobody ever dared to tell him the real truth.

Yeah.

So in that part, I coach most times people from, you can talk about to be behavior and not about the person. You can split those. I don't know how you see that, but that's how I at least look at it. The 2 dominators, what I see in people.

Yeah, totally agree with you, right? Often we say it right now, let's separate the problem from the person, right? And not say that this is a problematic person, which often is the case when you're tired with a certain colleague and then you kind of name, you play the name game, right? This one is difficult. That one is off the rocket, you know, that one's— in a way, it's like putting meaning in how we can handle those meanings as well, work with them, right?

Yeah.

So yeah, it's very true.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Christoffel, I would love to hear of how you walked into coaching, as in after working for this training company, uh, what made you to want to get into, you know, know, that whole route of certified, credentialed and all of that with the ICF?

Actually, when I was in Australia, I came aware that Australia likes certifications, as you know.

Yes.

So then I still remember a client said, are you ICF accredited? And my first answer was a really long time ago, no. Okay. So I thought, okay, let's become member, right? Because I did all my coaching trainings with the training company. Yeah. They were not ICF certified. So to get an ICF accreditation means I had to do, say, the whole accreditation path now. Yes. And that means you have to get all your stuff accredited and it's, I can tell you, a lot of work. Besides, you have to do recordings. And so I pushed it a long time in front of me until, say, my, my, my current girlfriend, she's in the board of ICF Spain, said, Chris, stop pushing it forward and now just become a, just go bite the bullet. You say it to all your clients, bite the bullet, put your money where your mouth is. So then I really longed to say, 4 or 5 years ago, I went for my PCC because that was the easier part than right away MCC, although I already had the hours. Yeah. Because MCC right away jump into accreditation part. MCC is really a hard one. So it was PCC and, uh, 2 years ago, also based on my training on the 3 Brain Coaching.

Yeah.

Um, one of my participants said, who is an MCC, she said, Chris, why don't you become an MCC? Because all your stuff is MCC work and it makes, it makes it much easier. And I said, becoming an MCC means again, all your recordings, getting, getting through all the loopholes, getting ticked all the boxes. And, uh, my other training was, was also in MCC, but she's also a mentor.

Yeah.

And she said, hey, Chris, um, you know, I trust, I believe in you. I will be your mentor if you like me. Wow. Uh, then there was no escaping for me anymore because, yeah, if you already have a mentor who says yes, so I'm still asking, is there an escape for me? She said, no, there's no escape. So, no. So I went also for my MCC path and But I also had the idea, um, if you're an MCC, people look at you differently. So it also gives another status to the training.

Yeah.

Um, and I saw, I saw the journey. I thought, you know, uh, because I'm also a therapist, because I know if you do your MCC recording, you cannot put any NLP therapy constellations or anything in your coaching. was then. So my challenge was, that was also why I pushed it out from, okay, but I have to actually skip all my other things and really only do coaching.

Yeah.

And I don't know how it is with you, but your clients don't buy you because you're an MCC coach. Your clients buy you because you help him or her to get somewhere. And if you do NLP therapy, hocus pocus, actually they don't care as long as you get them there. So I went through the whole thing and I thought, you know, besides all my frustration, I thought this beautiful thing also to learn really MCC coaching. So is it able for me? Am I able to coach and get also results without doing all my other things? So I saw it as that journey. It doesn't mean it was not frustrating because sometimes then it's not approved. Your mentor says, no, it's not good enough, Chris. Sorry, but you again, you flipped into helping the client too much. Don't help the client too much. Yeah, but in my way it is 5 minutes. In MCC way it's 15 minutes. Yes, I just take 15 minutes and all my yes, buts didn't help. And so I find it really, I find it really a great, I find it, uh, First Mill is a really great journey because you come over here.

Yeah.

How can you actually, and that was my objective. How can I embed all the qualities I have in a way that it is done in coaching and not done, say, in therapy or other kinds of tricks? How can I blend my style in?

Yeah.

So it is still approved as, as really MCC coaching.

That's right.

And the client gets the results also, but you can really stick to the coaching. And that was my, say, my, wow, my objective. And I can tell you, it only took me 50 recordings to get that. So, but so you could say I'm a slow learner, but I thought, no, I really like to get that finger on it because I only worked with real clients. Because some people then say, why don't you just, um, take a fake client and you prep the client how you do your recording? I said, no, I don't like to do that because then I don't see my own quality. Um, some people called me stubborn or stupid. I said, no, no, no, I like to honor it. If I become an MCC, I like to become an MCC because I do MCC quality, not, not, not because I knew how to trick all the things.

Yeah.

So when I really got that insight, okay, so you can get that coaching, you can ask those questions in this moment, you use those silences, you, you bring it like that. And it remembered me actually how we started from, I have the quality to know what's happening without that people tell me what's happening. So I only have to get that, what we call, really the relationship with the client, the trust with the client, the connection with the client. And then somewhere the the questions will follow and the topic will follow. So the moment I could blend that all in, that's somewhere happened. And the beauty is, and probably you know that, having to figure that out and figure it out, you can also help other people how to do that.

Yeah.

That's the beauty of it because they say that's my, still my passion. How can we bring that coaching To a higher standard, even because it's extremely popular coaching, and it is if you read the newspapers more and more needed for all the burnout, stress, and all the kind of related things people have. So how can you bring say those things in there now? So that's that's how I became it with all the truth, with all the frustrations, and also the journey behind it.

And you know, that, that's all of that that you said is so important, you know, so important for every person out there to listen to, right? Whether you're a coach, whether you're not, it's okay. We're thinking of coming in. It's okay. Uh, there's so many things you said there. I'm going to paraphrase, of course, you know, there's the bit that—

If you wouldn't, I would be surprised.

That's a bit of you being that directness, truth, truth-telling Dutch, you know? Well, stroke stubborn.

Okay.

You wanted it that way because through the rigor, you could still be you and, and still find out what it took to, to understand all those loops and, and ticks and all of that, which was important, but it's not the whole story. And that lessons, insights, whatever you got from that tiring journey was all worthwhile. Because at the end of it, you can say, I've done it from me. And I didn't just do it just because someone's asking me to do it, or someone cornered me to do it, or someone said, this is the right way. And you could have done all the other ways too. But you said no. I gotta live with it. I've got to stand on it. And I've got to say, I did it in a way, my way, with all the lessons that you have taken and will continuously take with it. And knowing, I think one of the things I heard is that knowing that you put the clients interest first, you know, the needs of the client first before saying anything of, of the other stuff that you could do, right? Because you've got the other toolkits, right? You know, therapy and NLP and all the rest, right? You could have just put it in there, but you also wanted to be true to the sense of, if I did it purely with just coaching, what would that be like?

You know?

So Hey, congratulations, man. It really sounded like that was tough, but it was worth all that while, all that effort.

Absolutely. It was 15 months and say it was tough, but absolutely worth it because you come over here and we talk about now the CRP content and the coaching way. And there's of course a huge gray area in between.

Yeah.

And for me, Because coaches, they get more and more questions out of the business world to actually expand the topics they discuss.

Yeah.

So, and for me, as also being a therapist and also training coaches, can it be done in a way that we can honor ourselves and don't step out of our own roles or we breach our own contracts or we breach our own things? And can we give the quality to the client in that moment? And the only way, in my opinion, to know it is to do it by yourself. Yeah. So I would not have minded if this process had just took 2 months instead of 15.

Hey, it took, took me about the same time, almost 2 years for that process. And of course, in between, I also chose to, uh, to take a sabbatical because I was just tired of getting it not passed. Right. I'm like, You know what, forget about it. It's not for me. Maybe it's for some really brilliant people. Um, so I took some time and anyway, that's my story.

But, uh, but, but, but that's also good because I also took 3 months off after they, um, they said no to my recordings. I took 3 months off, you know, from this, the same things. Probably it's not for me. Maybe I put the challenge too hard on my own shoulders, fun, uh, with all the doubts and maybe I'm too much therapist and But that's also a beautiful, I don't know, a beautiful reflection on yourself. What kind of beliefs am I now imposing on myself?

Yeah, so true.

And are those beliefs actually helping me or actually limiting me to get there?

Yeah. I'm curious about your background as a therapist. Of course, um, know that, uh, as a coach, we're not to do that. And, and if, if ever our clients walk into that area or need other professional help, we as coaches have the ethical responsibility to recommend them forward to another professional. So I think the question is, Christoffel, how do you see that both worlds come together?

No, that's a good question because I started really working in therapy 11 years ago when I entered Australia as first being a clinical psychotherapist, hypnotherapist.

Yeah.

Also teaching people to become clinical psychotherapists, hypnotherapists. And I worked a lot with, uh, sexual, emotional abuse, um, and all the kinds of depression and horrible stuff. So I, I really came into the harder therapy world. That's also how I came aware, hey, head, heart, gut, brain. Yeah. Uh, and When you talk about where's the line with coaches, uh, I totally agree in both cases, eh, that there should be a, uh, separation.

Yeah.

A good therapist is not a good coach because they will solve the issue for the client. Means they give the client almost a fish and the client doesn't learn to, uh, doesn't learn fishing.

Yeah.

But the client doesn't need fishing anymore because he's, he's fed. So he doesn't have an issue anymore. Coaches, we help the client to develop and move it forward in the future. But both, both are not trained to do the other role. And then it becomes really hard. And psychologists, with all respect, is not a great coach in general if they don't learn really how to become a coach. Uh, the same for coaches. So there is a gray area based on the topics the client presents to us.

Yeah.

And for me, it's also the case, uh, how much does the client know your expertise? But much more, how, how much do you know your own expertise?

Yeah.

Daring to say no to a client is extremely important.

Yes.

Because you can really mess up a client seriously, by the way. That's true. That's Yeah, because it is extremely easy to say, in my words, retraumatize a client when they have a topic. Wow. Or make them even worse.

Yeah.

If you do the wrong thing, it is like asking me to do, to do a surgery on somebody. I can tell you, you will not be happy after the surgery. Um, and so, so in that part, it's there. So, uh, like for me, I don't have an issue because the clients who come to me know what I am, what I do. But even then, I always discuss what is, where we, where do we put our own boundaries?

Yes.

Do you like to see me as a coach? Do you like to see me more wider? Because I like to have clarity in both things. Because if you like to have a coaching process, it's also different than how we do our sessions. If you ask me to be, say, also more, say, let's call it therapy role, then sometimes I give advice. I say, don't do that or have you thought about left? As a coach, I will not give you those tools because I like that you become aware of your own process, how it works for you, because that's also what you like to do somewhere in your workforce. Yeah. When you talk about those kinds of things. So we make clear distinctions. And I think it's extremely important for us also as a coach, as therapists to get those boundaries really straight because the client expects something. Of course, they buy you for a solution. Yeah. But they don't know how that works. So we have to put those boundaries there. The client doesn't know the boundary. If you go to a dentist, you know, the dentist sets the boundaries what he or she can do.

Can do. Yeah.

And it's extremely important. That's why you have trust in a dentist. So if a client likes to trust the coach, we have to set really clear boundaries what we can do, because then the trust part stays there. And it's the same for therapy, by the way. Yeah.

Yeah.

So for me, that's really important. And, uh, what I see now, and I have a feeling about it because I say depression, anxiety becomes more and more, and wellness is a hot topic. And I see more and more coaches stepping in that because it's business. And I have, say, my, sometimes my doubts about it because are we really educated as coaches to deal with that.

Hmm.

Now, when you talk about wellness, wellness is, uh, is a lot of things, uh, how you talk about it. And most times what does not bring health is our own limiting beliefs, uh, or the things we learned in life. Really working on limiting beliefs, you could question yourself, is that something that we as coaches like to do or educated for what we should or shouldn't do? That's also a gray area for me. Because if you talk about limiting beliefs, they came to us as a great coping mechanism in the past. Nowadays, they're not a great coping mechanism more, and actually they're hindering us to achieve something. So yes, we could solve them to the future, but do with all respect, we got stung 10 years ago. So we have to do something about, say, the root cause. And yes, And then I talk about 3-Brain Coaching. In 3-Brain Coaching, you can, because the heart and the gut, where most times those limiting beliefs are, don't know time. So they don't know yesterday. So you can coach them in today to the future. But that needs some really special things that can stay in our coaching room. Because the moment you ask, what happened 10 years ago, Mel? And what did your partner say? And what did your boss say? Then actually we step into a therapy role. We go digging into the past. And digging in the past doesn't solve an issue. It just means you're digging in the past. So we have to change that role. But the same is wellness. Why do people do what they do? Because we want to learn that. To change it just behavioral-wise is simple, but to change the really deeper patterns is hard. So I have to say also in that part, and I hope that Magdalena, our CEO from ICF, creates even more clear boundaries where we should and shouldn't touch on. Because I know in your last presentation or the presentation last year, you spoke about, say, the needs that we have as coaches. And let's say one-third of the questions are really health or wellness related or anxiety, depression related. And I think now we should, we should, it would be wise in my opinion to set some more boundaries. How do we deal with that as coaches? Where do we like to touch and not touch on? Yeah. And it's again, all in mind, our client. Sorry for the long explanation.

No, no, no. Lots to think about. Lots to discuss about. At the end of the day, as you said, is how best can we serve our clients? Yeah. And sometimes the best thing to do is to take a break and allow the clients to work with some other professional for a little bit. Yeah. Before they continue the journey.

Yeah.

With coaching.

So, I think what you say is to say, and I said a couple of times, but what you said is so important that it is the client we have to take, we have to have in mind. And yeah, there's one thing sometimes we forget that they trust us with their behavior, their things, their topics. They trust us.

Yeah.

So we should take it extremely serious in my opinion. They trust us with their career, their topics, their things. So it's not just a game we're playing where we get paid for.

I call it a privilege. It's also a very critical one because, you know, on one side, you know, there is all that trust and relationship rapport building and all that, but On the other side, that could be a crutch that they're using, yeah, where they are reliant, you know, over-reliant sometimes, uh, on, on, on the coach or whatever the professional help is. And sometimes that can be the danger of it.

Yeah, absolutely.

I would love to, uh, talk about— since you are so passionate about the 3 brains, let's kind of get into that a little bit. How did that come about for you?

I would say I'm extremely passionate about it because it gives many solutions for us coaches to do things that are freaking amazing. And how did I come to it? As I said, I became a therapist. Now, I don't know how it happens to you, but my old days and still now, I became aware of clients that we could not help.

Yeah.

And they have topics and just still normal topics. not about sexual assault or something like that, but still normal topics. And it did not change, although they knew they could change. They wrote down their action plan and then after 1 or 2 weeks, they stopped their action plan. Also like, what the beep? Why do you stop?

Yes.

And we all know it. If it's now just being healthy, eating more, sporting more, and that leads me in the path of now NLP, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I got my own burnout. Uh, I got once in a horrible divorce when I moved to Australia and both of them kicked me down so hard. I also thought, hey, I learned already so much, still this happens to me. So all I learned and applied to myself doesn't work enough. What's more?

Wow.

Being also a therapist and working with people who were serious, say, now hurt. I always think I would talk about the subconscious, your subconscious now. And I always ask, Dear professor, what is the subconscious? Now, the subconscious is what we don't know. I said, yes, but where's the don't know located? Where in your head? I don't know. Now, long story short, I came aware also from Michael Gershwin, we have a second brain in our gut. And then you hear about these stories of the heart brain. And I came aware about research about heart transplants that they move also the memories. And I thought, okay, so if the gut has a brain, The heart is a brain. We have a brain inside our beautiful skull. Say that is all true. Let's go from that hypothesis. Then what is the reason that they are there and what is their objective and what's happening and how does it work then for our clients? Now I have to get all the mix. I start to really, that is playing and experimenting with my students who I was teaching psychotherapy and hypnotherapy and with my clients, therapy clients. Van, if that's true, is it there? Nou, en ik ken nu weer echt is true. So a lot of things is stored in our heart and God. And just as we actually sometimes forget time, we only know in our head. And when do people learn time? When do they learn next year, last year? When they're around the age of seven. So before the age of seven, we don't actually know what's yesterday and tomorrow. But before the age of seven, we learn a lot. Just like before the age of three, almost nobody has a memory. But what happens in the first three years is extremely important for your life afterwards. By secure tests, not secure tests. So where do we remember that? Now, then it can be where the heart and the gut stores. The gut is really your your me brain. That is the really the brain that is already five hundred million years old. And in my trainings, a lot of times say, look at the sea cucumber. Or look at the, look at the, and you see it somewhere. It's just a living, a living intestine. The heart brain is all about bonding and connection because that's why it also, that's the only part besides the amygdala that also secretes oxytocin, the love hormone. And the head, of course, we know by all the research has all the amazing stuff it does. And if you have then those 3 things, hey, the gut decides about me, myself, and I action and those kinds of things. The heart about bonding, the head about all logic. Then it comes to where, why people don't move because their limiting belief or their coping mechanism is somewhere stored a long time ago in their heart or gut.

Hmm.

They don't know yesterday, the heart and the gut. So you can coach them in the now, change it in the now for the future, and you solve an issue that happened 10 years ago. It's freaking amazing. So you can coach people actually on things that happened 10 years ago and still do coaching and it works amazingly. I just finished the training last week and there were MCC coaches in it and PCC coaches in it, another PCC coach, but really highly experienced. So there's a, it was a really small group and I, when we started, I was like, okay, so we have a doctor in there who studied neuroscience and all kinds of stuff and had more degrees than I could count. An MCC who's already 30 years in the field and a PCC who also actually did trauma and somatic work. I think, okay, this is a challenge. Will my stuff work? And I got all from all 3 of them amazing, uh, sweet responses about their changes they made in the training, personal development they made. Yeah. That just was for them something like eye-opening things that they could not expect to happen. Because one of them even was, say, walking for some topics by a psychiatrist and solved things the psychiatrist could not solve by, not by me, by actually by one of the other coaches who was just using, just using my techniques. So I saw how amazingly successful it works. That's why I'm so extremely enthusiastic about it.

Yeah.

Because in that moment, you can change your questions. And yes, because when somebody leaves you, where do you feel it? In your heart. Hey, heartbroken. Yes, it makes sense. It can really happen. When you're anxious, where do you feel it? In your gut. How many times do you say follow your gut feeling? And they're really true. The only thing is, as coaches, we are not educated up to now to really come aware, hey, that means something. But if you say to somebody, why don't you follow your gut? Actually, what you say to a person, do only what's good for you. Don't give an F about anybody else. If you say to your friend, now just follow your heart in that relationship, you actually say, please the other, don't take care of yourself. So if you go for the bad boy or bad girl, probably a couple of years you'll have, you will be totally heartbroken, by the way. So, and if you say, hey, just follow your head, you actually say follow what's logical, but you don't follow your passion. So in what we say normally to our friends is actually follow one of the 3 wisdoms we have. And there are 3 different responsibilities. Take care of myself, take care of the relationship, take care that's logical. All three of them combined gives us amazing possibilities. Using only one of them is like walking on one leg and the other leg tight to your to your butt. That doesn't make sense. Nobody would say that it makes sense actually to walk like this. Can you please untie my other leg so I can walk normally? That would make sense. That's why I'm so enthusiastic about it. Now I can talk on hours, so I'll just stop because. But it is.

Everything you said, right, made a lot of sense everywhere, right? Everywhere. It connected with me. It resonated deeper within me as well to kind of say, am I truly serving the things that I'm really desiring? And it's often the case I noticed that logical people that I work with, engineers, top, top leaders, uh, they're brilliant, brilliant in, in what they do. And then the gaps are often misaligned from here and here. Yeah, that's what I've just noticed, right? Just when you're talking about it, it's all coming together. I mean, of course I've known this. Yeah. But, uh, it's just like a reinforcement of, of the missing gut and the missing connectivity with, with that heart that we're often just flowing with that one brain and making all decisions based on that and then thinking, what the hell's gone wrong?

You know? Yeah, you're so right. And When I say it is there in the, I would say in the Western world, we discovered it. Michael Gershwin in the '90s, Dr. Amour also in the '90s, they wrote the books and research about it. But of course, in the Asian culture where you're from, they know it already for thousands of years. So it's not something new I'm saying, something. The only thing is in the Western world, what we love in Western world, we scientifically proven it. So now it's true. If you look at Tai Chi, if you, it's about the body movement, it's about the whole alignment. If you talk about meditation, what's 3,000 years old, it is all there already. Only we totally forgot it, how it works. And we use, say, words for it. But the good thing is now it is scientifically proven. We can actually use it also much more in the way we do. And it is less, now I would also say purple and spiritual because it's just hard science. But you're so right. Leaders who are brilliant sometimes, and we all know them, sometimes forget to connect with the rest.

That's true.

And but also some leaders are extremely good from working from the gut because the gut is a survivor and a winner. I always call them the Terminator or whatever. They are not Schwarzenegger, they're Rambo. They're freaking amazing. It is the gold medal winner. who just squeezes the last push out of it to become number one. It's freaking amazing. The only thing is, if that's your leadership style, yeah, you can still be extremely good in your company and even your company can be good, but it has a massive turnover. People are just there passing by for their own needs. And when there's no common need anymore, they disappear. So the long-term results are not there. I mean, look about the book From Good to Great. So the moment you can help leaders in coming over here, you're doing freaking amazing, awesome, period. The only thing is how sustainable is your team and your company?

Yeah.

And then something like, and then most of them say, yeah, no, I know, Chris. They go to the no, I know, Chris. What should I do about it? It's good that you ask a question. I said, how many times do you really ask people what they're really Just do for life. And a lot of them say, that's a waste of time, Chris, and we're not here to talk about life. I said, so do you hire then a person only for the work or do you hire actually the person? Do you hire the skills or do you hire the person?

Yeah.

And they say, that's a stupid question. I said, it sounds like a stupid question, but you hire the person, but you actually only like the skills. And the pity is they're not separable. You cannot separate those 2.

Yeah.

When you hire the skills, you also hire the person. So it's all his or her things around him. And I gave recently a leader an assignment to talk to all his 10 direct reports and really sit there for us. I said, okay, take half an hour, not an hour, but I normally say take half an hour. And the only thing you need to ask is from, hey, I actually like to talk about your wife, kids, and your personal life, where you're coming from. How's life treating you? That's the only thing you can ask. And you don't talk about work. And after 2 or 3 sessions, he mailed me back or WhatsApp me back, Chris, this is extremely hard to do. No, do you know? And then the next time he texts me back, actually, I learned a lot about those people. I never knew that now X, Y, Z was married. I never know they had kids. And he said, by the way, you know, some people responded to me that they actually really liked my talk with them. What's wrong with those people? We didn't talk about work and they like it. But, but now, a couple of months later, he says, I see a change in my team.

Yeah.

They're supporting each other more. And he really had some like, how's that possible talk? We didn't talk about teamwork or team synergy. We didn't go climbing mountains. We're just, we're talking about us and people are working more together. How is that possible? Now they talk actually about that, what we talk about, you probably just start laughing. So let's go, that heart brain that then starts connecting.

Beautiful. And yeah, you're right. We could talk about this forever, right? Because it's so, it is, it is so meaningful. You talk about that example. I just came back from overseas and I had the same encounter, right, with the leaders over there. And same, the question that I asked them is, how well do you know your people? So yeah, I do know my people really well. I do know my people. And it's the head knowledge, right? I know that they are good in their competence, in the way they do the work, in their deliverables. So it's fascinating, fascinating. And not just in one culture, it's everywhere. And why? I think it's because we were born to connect with another person, another human being. And that is the power of Of everything.

You're right. The funny part, I spoke with that leader and as being on therapy, I said, can I just ask you a question without going into the therapy? But I'm just curious, where did you learn to behave like this in your team and as a leader?

Wow.

I said, I'm going to write down the answer, by the way. And he said, how do you mean? I just said, your dad was also this, this, this, this, this. And he said, yeah. I said, is that normal? I said, yes, it's normal. I said, there's a mom or a dad who just pushes us in that way.

Wow.

Or in their relationship together. I said, we're not going there. I said, but what do you need now to get more of that? So we just, we almost now, you can call it child healing work or inner child healing or those kinds of stuff, but then in a coaching way. So I just proved my 3-brain coaching. I said, are you willing to work on it in a coaching way? He said, we're not going to freaking therapy, please not. Is that good? Because if you're going to do therapy, we kick you out in 2 seconds. I said, that's good. I said, I promise you, no No therapy. And in the 3 Brain Coaching way, I just helped him. And he said, I didn't cry. It was just, you know, the joke. No, I didn't cry. I just had to, I just choked a little bit. That's why a tear came out. That's okay. It's good that you choked. And I spoke with him later. He said, Chris, I don't know what, I said, I don't know what you did with me because I know it was coaching, but there is really a load off my shoulders.

Wow.

And I said, actually, I said, and my wife told me I'm becoming softer. I said, Chris, you have to help me. I don't like to become soft in our marriage. And I said, how does she like it? He said, actually, she likes it a lot. I said, what's the freaking issue? He said, I don't have an issue. We don't talk about issues. Now, he said this in a joking way. He said, but it was so amazing to hear that. Actually, he learned in his late 50s that what he learned when he was 5, 6, 7 years old, he was carrying with him now. And that he actually, the only thing he had to learn, that he was now in his end 50s and he was not 6 or 7 or 8 years old anymore. And when his heart learned that and his gut learned that, it was dropped off. It was so beautiful to see. So that's why I love 3-band coaching again, because you can do freaking amazing work. In short time.

Well, you heard it. You've got to learn more about it. Chris, you have a book about it too. Um, tell us about that book.

Yes, it's still a relationships book because I first wrote about we're all in relationships. So it's Relationships, Which Brain Is Talking? Of course, head, heart, or gut. Yeah. And I said it's about relationships, but we're all in relationships. And the second part of the book is actually how do you deal In a relationship, and if now your partner, your spouse, your your colleague or whatever, how can you work with them when they are more dominant in one of the brains? Because most people are dominant in one of their brains. How do you deal with it? How do you work with that? And the funny part is everybody who reads it, a lot of people say I'm hesitant to read because about relationships. But the moment they read it, they say this is freaking amazing. I say that the doctor. In all the sense, who was in my training. So like a book about relationships, why should I read it? She read it and said, this is a freaking amazing, awesome book. Everybody should read this, Chris. I said, I do agree with you. How do I achieve that? That's how it's there. And it's still my promise. I will write a book that is also much more, say, without relationships, much more for us as coaches, as leaders, how we can work within that part. That's somewhere in the pen.

Yeah.

Say, but for all our coaches, us as MCCs, but also our PCCs, ACCs, and whatever.

Yeah.

The most important thing is to develop yourself and don't stop learning. And if it's now my training or you go to, you go to you, Mel, or to whomever, it doesn't matter as long keep on learning, keep on developing yourself. That's what I, that's what I learned from all my years. The moment you think you know, actually come aware that you don't know.

Yeah, I'd like to echo you. That's freaking amazing.

Totally allowed to. No. Yeah, but yes, because we are now MCCs, you would say we are the highest in coaching, but it doesn't mean we have to stop learning. Actually, in my opinion, the learning starts now because now it is how can we actually grade, say what we know to a level that is adaptable for everybody else and for ourselves and for our clients.

Absolutely. I love that. I felt that immediately when I got MCC like 3 and a half plus years ago. And I felt that, um, I, I didn't know that much actually. And you can say it's a mix of, you know, a bit of that limiting belief, a bit of all of that. But I like to say I've come to a point where I realized that I can learn from not just another MCC, I can learn from anyone out there. It's just being in a posture of being hungrier, you know, hungry to learn something every single day.

Absolutely. I don't know, say I have a dog and the moment you feel, say, say, Stressed out, then start learning from your dog because a dog we could say is quote quote lesser intelligent than us. Doesn't get stressed out. Yeah, it's stressed out maybe for one second or two seconds and then it shakes it off and it's okay again because it lives in the present. It lives in the present. It doesn't have to do mindfulness. It is mindfulness. So we can learn from everything because the moment we think oh I'm M C C I'm good actually on that moment you're not good anymore. Because then you step in the arrogant pit. For me, look around and you can learn from everything. It's, if you like to see resilience, look at nature, then you really learn resilience.

That's true. So good. Um, what is your wish for coaching in the days ahead?

I know it sounds contradictible almost, but that we even become more professional.

Wow.

We've grown the last 20 years massively as coaches. And yes, do us all respect, it's still easy to become a coach. And actually, um, now actually that we become as coaches really separated from the people who think they are coach, and that we as ICF, EMCC really create— there's a difference between us, what we do as a profession, as a coach and the people now who became a coach who basically know I worked 20 years as a sales manager, sales director or whatever, I can also be a coach.

Yeah.

Because most times they are a mentor or a consultant. But we as coaches take our profession almost to the next level that we are really seen. A professional coach is something different. That's my wish for us and for all our colleagues who are listening. And, uh, Magdalena from, uh, you can put the squeeze on us, on MCCs and all the others to become even better.

Hmm.

And please do so. I, I will not say I always enjoy it on that moment. I can tell you if I have to do new recordings.

Yeah.

But if we like to become really a true profession, yeah, we have to train.

Yeah.

Just like in sports, if you stop training, You stop winning.

Yeah.

And the moment we as coaches stop training, we stop becoming a really great coach. So that's my wish for all of us. That's why I said keep developing, because when we are a real true profession, we can even bring in much more in the end, because that's my idea for our clients. Because they say, hey, definitely, because I don't know, when I read the book From Good to Great, I thought that's what we have, long-term amazing companies. Toxic relationships, toxic leadership is out. Now, the only way we can do that, if we coaches become even more professional, people say, no, I have a toxic relationship. I know it's not healthy for my company. Please, dear coach, help us. And that we really can vanish that. So that's my wish.

Beautiful. I love it.

It's just a small one.

Just a small one, as you say. And it's gonna take us a little bit of time, let me say that.

Yeah.

And a lot of, um, commitment, I think, from everyone, not just from one body or just relying on the leadership to do their thing. I think it's, it's true, even this, right, this platform. That is why I guess I created this whole show, is because I wanted to showcase the excellence out there. and, and bring it in and allow it to continuously impact lives and, and young coaches coming in, especially to, to hear that there is that uniqueness that each coach brings. But then there is the responsibility part as well. Responsibility.

Absolutely.

Professionalism.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're so right. Because young coach and old coach doesn't mean an old coach is better. Just has more experience. Because when I said when I started my story 25, 27 years ago, the person I was coaching was extremely happy with my coaching. So I was doing great stuff. Probably now, I assume 27 years later, I do even more amazing stuff. Now actually, it's more stable, the quality. I could always say that the quality is more stable than then. But it doesn't matter if you're 1 year in the field or 20 years in the field.

That's right.

It only shows you have more experience, but doesn't mean you're better or worse. Yeah. So all those young coaches keep developing because we all need you.

That's right. Any last thoughts?

No, no, no, no. I'm just, I'm really, I'm grateful to have this chat with you and the laugh with you because I know your passion and your willingness. No, no, no last thoughts. I'm saying I'm happy that we had the opportunity to have this chat and that I really wish that everybody who listens to us thinks, hey, I learned one or two things, or one or two things out in this chat that motivated me. Okay, I know that Mel and Chris also really had a hard time when they went for the MCC. Okay, that's normal. Oh, Mel and Chris also took a breakout in between because it's like, this is not for me. Oh, they also had their limiting beliefs, although they are so good. Oh, it's totally normal. It is in learning. In learning, it means you have to fall down. Every learning path means you sometimes fall down and sometimes getting up is hard.

That's right. Keep on getting up. Keep on getting up.

Yes.

Keep on every single day.

Absolutely.

Well, Christoffel, it has been a pure pleasure for me to, to have this chat with you, my friend.

Yes, my dear friend. Thank you so much. I wish you a beautiful evening in Melbourne. I'm going to have a beautiful day in the Netherlands. We speak soon in another way.

Thank you. This has been the 100 Master Coaches Show today with Christoffel, myself, Mel, saying catch you on the next one. Till then, take care. Continue to do what you do best. Coach, coach, coach out there. Take care now. Bye-bye.

You have been watching the 100 Master Coaches series with your host Coach Mel MCC, brought to you by Catalyst Coach, www.catalystcoach.live. We will be right back with our next master coach. On the 100 Master Coaches series.