What C-Suite Leaders Have, and Middle Managers Don't, Based on 5.218 3 Brains Test | ICF ICW 2026

Recording in progress. So it's happening. So we're going to talk today to give you an insight about 2,000, about 5,218 tests revealed about how leaders really think, what we as coaches or leaders, depending on your job, can do with it. And curious, we only have a few people here, so we can put it in the chat. What is your job or role? Are you more a coach or more a leader or maybe both? So we also know where should put the emphasis on. If we are all coaches, I can talk differently than if we are both coach, executive coach, coach. Thank you so much, coach, coach, coach, coach, retired leader. That always sounds good to be retired. That sounds a little bit more relaxed, Sharon.

Yes.

Make, make us jealous because you still look young and then already retired. Ah, make me jealous. Okay, so if we have more coaches, I will look from that perspective more than say from the leader's perspective. And then what we can do with them when we start developing coaches or coach leaders. So who am I? Just a little introduction. Probably you saw it, but besides my name, Christoffel Sneijders, MCC coach, 33 years of clinical and coaching practice. So I'm a therapist and I'm also a coach besides, uh, a professor, a visiting professor at the business school in Qatar and Madrid. Wrote 3 books now on 3-brain intelligence. As I lived in Australia and now live in Spain and originally come from the Netherlands, lived all around the world and actually coached and trained people also all around the world. 13,000 in total up to now, really in small groups or one-to-one. And I put down the 3 Bronze Coach Certification, an ICF accredited development training 140 CCUs, or if you are EMCC, 24 points. So that's the person who talks to you, so knows what's happening, and the founder of 3 Brains Intelligence, actually the founder of what we're now all going to talk about. So to start, what actually 3 things that really came out right away, and if you like to have a specific insight on this or say, hey, now I signed up for this. I have some questions really upfront to focus on more. Please can put them in the chat so I can change, because I have my slide deck, I have my story ready. But as we have a really small group, I can play with it. Now, if you have 140 people in the group like last time, it's harder to adjust to everybody's needs. But we have 7 people here, so that's easy now, or 11, and it's easier to adjust. So, um, for you coaches and for everybody else, um, one of the conclusions I took from all the tests is that we, in a lot of cases, are in a lot of development programs, are focusing on the wrong— wrong is a big word. not the most effective development path for trainers, for leaders. And it comes because our heart is actually almost the same score between middle management and executive management or higher management. So they don't need more heart. The second thing that really came out, and It was strange, was actually, I thought actually, but if it would be bigger, that the gut brain is the rarest brain. Our gut instinct is the least really dominating brain. Although it will show in the numbers that there is a significant change between middle management and senior leaders between the gut, the gut brain wisdom. Sorry. And the last one, we as coaches, because I'm also a coach, we have a different kind of brain dominance. And I'll come back what I mean with brain dominance because I don't know who of you is aware of that. We have 3 brains and knows what that means when I talk about that. But for me, it's so normal that sometimes I fall back in that slang and I assume that everybody knows what I know. Okay. Sharon knows. Okay, Sharon, good. But not everybody was really enthusiastic or said it in chat. So, okay, let's go back.

It wouldn't hurt to, to have a sense.

It wouldn't hurt. That's good because I don't like to inflict any pain on you, Sharon. So what are 3 brains? Just a little insight in there. Science proves we actually have 3 brains in our body. And really what I call a brain is a brain. So of course we know the one that's up in between our ears. Everybody is aware of that, I assume. We have that little thing. It doesn't mean that I'm the guy here that most females say, really start using your brain, guy. Well, you females have 100 grams more brain in between their ears than we men, but we all know that brain. The question is, and it's already there, why do we have 40 billion neurons there, and why do we have a memory? Why do we remember so many things? What is the evolutionary advantage of that, to remember a lot of things? What is the advantage of knowledge? We became aware that all those kind of things actually do a better prediction. If you know what your client did last week, if you know what your partner did, if you know what your kids did, if you know this, then you can make a better prediction on the patterns. And based on the patterns, you can do better prediction how you should act and behave the next time. So it increases your survival chances. Hence why evolution, or if you're religious, God gave us the beautiful thing in between our ears. That is the only part in our body that knows next week and last week. That's the only part in our body, I say for the second time, that is aware of a cause and effect analysis. Up to now, all logical and all normal. Okay, then science became aware, medical science became aware that we have a brain in the heart. It's smaller, 40,000 neurons. And Dr. Amour, cardiologist, came aware of it in '94 in all his operations and other kind of things. He said the little brain next or on top of the heart, and he wondered what it would do. HeartMath made massive studies about it, and they came aware actually it can release oxytocin besides norepinephrine and No, dopamine. It has a brain and it learns, and it is actually all about bonding and not being rejected. Of course, where do we feel love, ladies? And do we see, do we have a man in here before? According to the names, you only have females. So, um, if you feel that you're non-binary, etc., etc., and you feel in, uh, say that I should address that, then okay. It's also okay. But where do we feel love? Is it in your head, your heart, or where most men say they feel love? I think your head. No, it's in your heart then. Because what happens if somebody you love passes away or leaves? You have a broken heart. And scientifically, it's actually proven that is true. Your heart will be affected by those kind of grief patterns. Grief you feel in your heart. Grief has an effect on the heart. So your heart is, you could say, responsible for the bonding, staying connected, and has the biggest fear in being rejected. Besides, it is available for our values. What is right, what is wrong. If you'd like to know much more about it, tomorrow Friday I give a presentation about 3-brain coaching, what is the in-depth of it, 2 hours later than now. And you can get much more insight what those 3 brains do, by the way. And then a couple of years later, Michael Gershon wrote the, in my opinion, famous book The Second Brain, and it proves we have a brain in our gut system. And our gut, what I mean is it is actually underneath your diaphragm, sort of the whole viscera, and actually goes to the tip of your tongue. Okay, why do we have that? Now actually, if you would go back in evolution, then we all started as a digestive system. The most primitive living organisms are almost a digestive system. Does a bacteria, does a bacteria have a heart? No. Does a bacteria have a head? No. It can live actually with intelligence from the digestive system. And if you look, say, in an oyster or a mussel, then we know those shell, all those shells, Shell animals or creatures. Do they have a heart? No. Do they have a head?

No.

But can they live? Yes. Can they make a decision to close their shell if there's a predator or a seagull? Yes. Can they open it when safe?

Yes.

Do they know when to close them and when to open it? Yes. Otherwise, there would never be shells anymore in this, in this, in the whole sea. Can they reproduce? Yes. Can they really find food? Yes. Your whole system of survival actually does not need a heart or a head. That we have it is because we're much more complex living entities. Your gut brain is the oldest brain, and actually it does exactly what they say also is the mussel or the oyster. It's all about survival, all about get food, don't get food. Will I be eaten? Will I be surviving? It's winning or losing. There is no gray in between. Not 50 shades of gray for a gut brain or for a muscle. It's black or white. It is, I eat, I will be eaten. I survive, I die. That's it. I win, I lose. And if you now think about us as human beings, those 3 systems are still in us. And if you like to make a comparison, how does that work for us? Just imagine at your table, um, you have 3 wise people and those 3 wise people are your decision makers. One decision maker only decides, say, almost on an Excel logical base. What's the pros? What's the con? What's the effect of it next week, next year? Only logic, no emotions. One is all about, you would say, the values and the emotions and the bonding and the relationships. What is important in this world? What's important around us? And the other one is just about there to win, to lose, to achieve, to have success. Those 3 wise people are always on your table and they actually make decisions what you do in your life. So now just imagine, and we have a small group so we can make it interactive. Just imagine that one of those 3 is always making the decisions. Would that be really smart if you have 3 of those at the table and only one is screaming out loud and making all the decisions? Is that a wise thing to do? Thank you for your movement, Nadia, nonverbally. I assume that is a no. No, it doesn't make sense. We need all 3 of them. What makes sense actually? That's the whole system also about 3 brains. You need all 3 of them to have an Quote quote the best life, or actually no regret. Because who of you ever regretted a decision and said to herself, "I should have thought about this a little bit longer." Oh, I should just follow my heart in this, or maybe I just had followed my gut feeling. Who of you ever had that regret feeling besides me? Don't tell me I'm the only one, please. Or I really feel that we and what is happening in that moment. One of our 3 brains was actually, or one of those 3 people on the table was not voicing their opinion, or we did not listen to it. Actually, that's true. We didn't listen to it. Hence, we forgot that insight and made the decision on one or maybe 2 of the others. Hence, we feel regret if we don't succeed.

Yeah.

That's what I tested in this 3 brains dominance test. which of those 3 wise people at your table has the loudest voice and which one is maybe silent and how is the balance in that? So I tested, you have a score of 105 in the questions, 105 points, and the 105 points are split over those 3. So if you have 35, 35, 35, I can show you that happens in 3% of the 5,200 tests. The other 97% has one or two brain dominance. So one or two of the people on your table are listened to, and the third one we forget in our decision-making. Only 3%, the people can speak out, the 3 wise people, and we listen to them. Okay, so that's why they're interesting. Already. Then I also came aware, say, about McKinsey. And McKinsey did a survey in almost 190,000 leaders, 81 countries, and said, what makes a leader successful? And it came aware 4 behaviors make the difference between strong and weak leadership. Now, if 90% is already influenced by 4, what are those 4? And what does it mean actually? How can you connect it with 3 brains? And then it comes interesting for the research also. The first one is solving problems effectively. Makes sense. If you're a leader, then you have to solve problems. So we invest, not invest. So we restructure, not restructure. Where should we focus on, not focus on? That's a head brain logical thing if you don't know the 3 brains. The other one is orientation, which is strong results. Operating with a strong results orientation, what a way. So making it happen, making it win, drive execution, get the sales done, be the best, get your revenue, all gut brain. That's the oyster or muscle that is talking. So now, 2 already of the wise people are important for your success. And the third one, you need 2 of them, seeking different perspectives. That means we have to connect with other people, but also come aware what they really say and put it somewhere in perspective. What do they say? How can I place it? What do I do with it? What do I do with it? Heart and gut brain. And the fourth one is supporting others. And that's really the role of the third wise person on your table. to support other people, to make them the best. Because we live in a team and we work in a team. And almost everybody has relationships. If it's not physical, then it is at least on your social media. And they believe they are all friends. So you can see McKinsey already proved you need your 3 wise advisors to become really a great leader. Up to now, makes sense? Okay, good. If you disagree, it's totally allowed. Chris, I don't agree. I think we should just have gut brain leadership like it's happening now in the world. Please not. So what does the scores say then? How is actually the split happening? And in domination of this, when you have the 3 scores, how much percentage has the highest score? And come aware that 48% of the 5,200 have in their 3 things the head brain the highest, 40% the heart brain the highest, and say 11% gut brain the highest. If you average out, you get the other, you get the other perspective that you have an average 38, 37, 28. So you see really balanced leadership is not totally aware there. The gut brain is, say, you could say more quiet. On the question, is there differentiation between men and women? Yes, there is. But because I don't have the question in my test up to now, are you female, male, non-binary, I cannot give the answer. I did an AI test based on names, and there you could see there is a difference happening, that men have a little higher gut brain and female has a little higher heart brain in general. What makes sense? Okay, I will not put any joke words in there, but Isabella already saying, yes, you should know all my friends. Getting— it makes sense what's happening here. If you split it for job, and then it really becomes interesting for us coaches, because the first 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 are all business roles, from science, engineering to finance to middle management, senior management, C-suite. What do you see? What is happening there? What you see happening is there is that the head brain lowers in score, the heart brain goes a little bit up, and the gut brain also goes a little bit up in general. Then you see a line going down from the head brain, heart brain goes a little bit up, and the gut brain goes also a little bit up. But there's a really difference between middle management and higher management and executive management. If we now look at us, our coaches, you see a different, totally different pattern. Do you see the difference between the C-suite and the health and therapy or executive coaches? What is the main difference? We are much more heart-brain oriented. than actually our average client. Does that make sense? Is that logical? Is that true? Why is this extremely logical? Who can give somewhere a guess? I don't mind telling my idea, but it's also nice if you share something. Why are you so much, much more heart-brained than, say, the average leader? If you don't like to speak out, you can put it in the chat. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Okay, I will tell you why. You as a coach, we as a coach, how many times did you listen to a client and you knew already actually the story based on all your experience? You, ah, this happened to me before this story. Maybe different clients, maybe different kind of company, but you knew the story, what is happening, how they had to manage people or how to have the conflict or how to have things. How many of you had the same different kind of stories from your clients? Many, isn't it, Sharon? If you don't have a big heart brain, would you really listen to all those stories?

No.

Then if you had a really high gut brain, you would say, Sharon, your story, what you say is actually really familiar with the other 30 stories I heard. I will tell you in 2 minutes what you have to do based on the 30 years of experience. That's easier than I ask you 20 questions and let you find out by yourself. Because with a bigger heart brain, we are willing to listen, willing to empathize, willing to sympathize, willing to help them to get there. In the questions. That's why our heart brain is higher. What's the quote quote pitfall of that? That we maybe are too empathic, too sympathetic, too much understanding. Because if you have a higher gut brain, you dare to confront, you dare to slap, you dare to say no. Because a gut brain is not interested in a relationship. A gut brain is interested in an outcome. A heart brain is really interested in a relationship, and the outcome will hopefully follow. Does it make sense what I'm saying? Yeah, for me it makes totally sense, but I thought about already eight years about these processes. So sometimes I go too quick in my own mind and think that everybody's there. Thank you, Karin. Because for me, the most important thing of this webinar presentation is that you get the best out of it. So if I'm going too quick, you have a question or you disagree or something else, please ask or say, yeah. Okay, that makes all sense. Good. But you just said you have a different kind of brains dominance. In general, this is all the numbers. That doesn't mean Isabel, Nadia, or Sharon, you have that because I don't know your scores, but there is a chance you have that. What do you see now if you look at our clients? So what is their development path if they like to go to higher management? What you see happening, and these are now 3 little things for the people who skipped statistics a long time ago, I will go through it. What means the number p you see here and the mean shift, etc.? This means a score lower than 0.1 means there is no chance in this score. That means if I would add 10 extra people in this database, it would still be the same. That this is just a lucky number doesn't make sense. And what you can see is that if people move to senior leadership, because this is the score, what we mean. So this is a score you have, say, 10 points of the 105 in the head brain. This means you have 60 points. I hear really low volume.

Hmm.

Does everybody hear a low volume? Oh, not. Okay, then it's not my, not my speaker. That, okay, I almost want to jump right away in action and start seeing what's my input. And I tested it before I thought it was okay. So what you see here, this is the score. So this is really a high score. This is really low score. You see that the really high scores diminishes the higher you get. So the more senior you become, you less have really high scores or dominance in your head brain. The head brain dominance slows, which you actually saw in the previous one too. But you can also see that in the heart brain, there is no movement in, is it gets higher scores or lower scores. The only thing that happens is that people have a little bit more of it and more, I mean, in the middle, but there is no more high scores or more low scores. And this really high score means that it is always true that this is a fact, that this is a stability point. If you then go to the last one and go to the gut, you see actually that gut leadership, gut dominance is rising the higher you get. What also makes sense if you think the gut is about winning. And if you like to become, say, the alpha male or female, you need to win somewhere from all your competitors to get on the top. But there is a different reason why gut dominance increases. And that is for us as coaches extremely important. And we'll come back to that later. First, I give you some other kind of slides just to overload you with all kinds of numbers. But this is what is, say, the number set in that split. You can see here all the colors are senior management and the gray is middle management. You can see here The drop from, say, the head brain dominance in the mid scores, their senior leaders are highest, but in the higher scores they're much lower. So on average, you could say they score in the 28 to 38 score. In the heart brain, that's why they have that little peak higher. You see, this is the high peak. It only gets a little bit higher there, but there it doesn't move almost. It is just in the top. In the gut brain, you see the opposite flow from the head brain, that the gut becomes more dominant in the high scorers. So if you think about the oyster or the winning and losing, you think, okay, so leaders have to be more egocentric. Now, probably there is a yes in that, but there is something much more important for us as coaches. Nope, this the other slide about the 3 different points. I can see they see the real difference happening, and it is actually what does the gut brain also is the source or the, the, the, the keeper of is of Self-confidence. Your gut is the source of self-confidence. When they say you need the guts for it, that is self-confidence. And it means is trust. And it is trust in myself, trust in the process, trust in others, and also trust that you make decisions on incomplete information. That is daring to make decisions in the trust you will achieve. And what I mean with that, if you would go back to the animal world as an analogy, if you are a lion and you are somewhere hiding in the bushes and you like to run toward, let's say, a deer, then you need to have trust in yourself In the process that you can run faster, and actually in the outcome. And you could say trust in the order that it doesn't run so quick. But you also have to make the decision as a line: when do I start running? And that's always incomplete information because you don't know the outcome. On one moment you have to decide as a line: I run. And that's a trust factor. And what you come aware in Senior leaders, their innate trust of self-confidence is higher. They dare to make more bold decisions based on incomplete information and just trust it that it will work out good. And that is for us coaches extremely interesting also to become aware, hey, how can we develop that more? for leaders. And that is, by the way, not arrogance. Trust is almost the opposite of arrogance. Does that make sense? In my words, arrogance is actually that you pretend to be something you're not. Trust is that you really feel that it's okay. And trust also means you know your own and you're aware of your own saying, weaker points or pitfalls or whatever you like to call them and don't hide them. They're just part of you and you are aware of them. So when you make decisions, you take also those in consideration. When arrogance, you just don't take them. Arrogance, you just try to get out of it. And when the 3 brains are working together, Then really it becomes a difference because you see actually, and it was in the previous slide, I didn't say it in the moment, C-suite leaders have the closest 3 brains together. So the gap between the highest score and the lowest score is with C-suite leaders the least. For us, it's a little bit, it's a little bit higher. I didn't say that. We're saying, let's say, less equal. C-suite leaders, you see a growth that they become more equal-centered in their 3 brains. And if you are that, those 3 wise people in your table actually all have a voice where you listen to. And it makes sense actually if you think about, say, nature. When we look at the old tribes, if it's now in Africa or in other countries, Who are actually the wise people in the tribe? Those are the elders, because the elders already experienced so much, don't jump into the emotions so quick, know the stories and use the experience for the whole good of the tribe. They use the 3 brains actually. They have curiosity what's happening. They have compassion for the tribe. And yes, they have trust. Based on all the experience and all the things you saw in life. And if one of the 3 brains, in my words, is closed, that means when you have an— this one is not working properly, your judgment clinging to old learnings, and you say that's wrong, that's why I don't believe it. If you have a closed heart, actually having indifference, and it is that I don't care attitude. And if your gut is somewhere closed off, then there is fear, anger, rage, disgust happening, and also a stopping of really logic. So it is important to have all 3 of them working, because a closed mind, closed heart, a closed gut, in my words, happens when we fall back, say, in old patterns, defensive patterns, old coping mechanisms, old limiting beliefs. Old experiences that were painful, and they overtake our role. I think all of them—at least I can talk about myself—have them. Even I'm an MCC coach and 30 years experience. Sometimes I come aware that one of my brains stops because I fall back in an old coping mechanism. I can get angry. I can get upset. I can say I don't care anymore. I can say I don't believe it. And that moment, actually, I come aware. Hey. One of my old patterns is running. Do you remember that? That sometimes it happens to you? Of course, sometimes and not always because we're amazing coaches. But can you remember? I see Sharon laughing. Okay, sure. It also happens sometimes to you. One every five years, eh? Yeah, something like that. Nah. Because actually every fight we have or discussion we have is one of our brains closed off. Every time we don't believe something or we're not willing to ask a question anymore, actually we're closed off. So that's happening. Senior leaders dare to trust and they get more balanced in those things. The 3 wisdom centers, the 3 wise people in the table are listened to. Then I put it, say, in a reflective mode. Okay, If we now look at literature and about real life, how good are leaders? Because I test what's their dominance. I don't test how successful or great they are. By the way, I don't know your experience, but I never meet so many leaders who say, actually, I suck at my job and I should be fired. I don't know if you meet them, but most of them not. And they blame, if that is happening, they blame actually the environment, a lot of them. Our self-awareness also is protecting us from being sometimes too vulnerable. But if you look at the scores globally from the Gallup organization, 23% of the global workforce is engaged. So that means if you would have a soccer team, 11 people on the field, that 3 people are enthusiastic and engaged, and 8 players actually don't give a peep about what's happening on the field. Do you think your team will win with that attitude? No way. But that's actually happening globally and in different countries, different scores. But there is almost no country that scores above 35%. 25% globally find their leaders engaging and inspiring. That's always funny if I show this to one of the people I coach. I say, this is globally statistics. So that means you have 20 people underneath you. So 15 people really, really don't find you engaging and inspiring. At least I have a lot of fun the first 5 minutes of my coaching session because they, most of them jump in defensiveness. That's okay. Is your engagement score higher than 8 or 9? No. Okay, then probably I'm through. Culture change projects have a success rate of less than 41% globally. It doesn't matter if you hire McKinsey, Boston Consulting Group of Accenture. And employees who are struggling is 56%. So if you look at this, we don't do really a good job as leaders or managers. Now, not we, they, because we are coaches. And so the workforce scores does not really show, hey, how good is it happening? If you now think for a moment about the Philosophy I put down and we agreed upon. We have 3 wise people in the room on your table. If they all are listened to, we make the best decisions. And then you look at the scores. Can you see somewhere there's probably a mismatch happening? That is because the scores actually not so most equal. They are not so perfectly aligned. There's so much differentiation. So it makes sense that probably our leaders are not the best as they should be. And based on the research that shows that more actually the higher the gut brain comes and then in a healthy way, the gut brain, not in egocentric narcissistic way, but more say in a trust way, to use the gut brain where it's meant for, to do the good for themselves, the team and the environment. They go great. That's the book From Good to Great. But they talk about servant leadership, but servant leadership still goes for success and numbers. So I put it also next to Paul Zak. If you know him, he wrote the book The Trust Factor a couple of years ago. He's a Harvard professor and he says trust runs on oxytocin. Oxytocin is the neurotransmitter that the heart releases and the Amygdala releases, that's the bonding hormone. And he uses that as an, as an 8-point letter to actually describe the correct characteristics, what you should do to create trust. And if you have trust in the company, then these are the results of that. That means you have more engagement, higher productivity, more energy at work, less burnout, less stress, more life satisfaction. Actually, You have winning companies, healthy companies, happy companies. Trust is the basis. What does Paul Zak say about how does that work? So I put my three brains on say the trust factor. Nee, ik kom er weer. Trust, the gut system, means actually three kind of four kind of behaviors. That mean honesty and vulnerability. Open information sharing with colleagues and delegation, and all connect with trust. If you're honest and vulnerable, let's think about your own relationships with your partner, friends, and if you have a relationship, think about your own relationship. Say your partner is not honest to you and not vulnerable. Do you think you have a good relationship, or are we then talking about your ex-boyfriends, ex-husbands? Hey, I got a couple of divorces behind my name. That's why I make the joke. Not. And do your if your partners don't dare to delegate to you, so really give you authority and responsibility. Is also relationship good? No. So the God, if the God can do this, it creates mastery. The numbers, by the way, eighty two, sixty five, sixty five. It means what's the contribution to the trust? So how much does this behavior contribute to get trust? You can see honesty and vulnerability is the most important one here. In heart, it means caring and building relationship and investing in people. And then the logic, it means clear expectations, praise, and recognition. You can see 3 things number out. Honesty, vulnerability, caring and building relationships, clear expectations. The 3 brains actually are there. And you come back to the Kinsey research. Hey, it shows, makes sense. We need all 3 of them, but somewhere in an equality in how we make, how we use them. Now I put them also, if you know the, who knows the 5 dysfunctions of the team? It's an amazing— by the way, if you work in teams, it's an easy— you can just Google it. He has a video about it. It's an easy book to read, actually. Says based on his research, you have 5 dysfunctions to working as a great team. The first one is again absence of trust. If that is not there, you cannot have a great working team. So the question is, what would you need to share your strengths, pitfalls, and mistakes without fear? A fear of being punished, fear of being, say, it's used against you. The neurotic one is fear of conflict. That means speaking out, being honest to each other. Sharon, I don't like your hair. I love your hair, by the way, but I thought I would just say something. And you can now say me back, Chris, but your hair is actually horrible. Yeah, that's totally okay. It's honest about it. And by the way, this is both a judgment, so we don't do it as coaches, but just what I mean is honesty. Honesty is also saying, hey, I have actually this. I should have done this in time, Nadia, but actually I'm too late. That's also a fear of conflict. It's there to speak out because I missed some information from ABC. Lack of commitment. Can we have a copy of the recording? Yes, absolutely can. This, it's recorded. And I uploaded, uh, I will, I will upload it on YouTube and on my website. You can choose whichever you like to look. Because for me, sharing is caring, and I love that you become a better coach because then you make the world or all your clients better, companies better, people better, and at the end, you have a better world. And that's my big dream. Uh, lack of commitment. What do we need to be there so we understand they're passionate and energized? It's more in the head because I like to understand, but the other brains are there. Avoidance of accountability. What do we need to share honestly? What are we willing to take responsibility and authority for? And attention to— inattention to results is also a killer. What do we need to win? And are we willing to act accordingly? They're all there, all are important. So we see actually we need that balance in there. So okay, now for us coaches, what makes a gut more learning and what suppresses it? What helps to get more trust, what not? What activates it? How could we train it, if you call it coach it, is so mistakes with reversible consequences. Who of you is a parent? Am I the only parent here? Okay, so maybe you know that. So you walk with a little kid who just learns to walk. Do you know that moment of trust you had that you let go of the hand and let the kid walk by itself? When it falls down, there's not a massive damage. That's actually Learning people to take risks, small decisions, what can go wrong, to learn to trust their innate ability. Mentorship from now good brain leaders, healthy ones, somatic and reflective practice. We come back to it later in the next slide. What I mean is that the failure that is named, not hidden, daring in a culture from honesty to share what you did wrong and didn't do wrong. Because the moment you dare to share, you dare to step out of your comfort zone, and you dare to experiment. And experimenting is learning, and it creates more trust. Of course, there is no kid who started to walk in one row. Nobody walked from sitting to walking. Every kid has to fall down on average 1,000 times before they could stand, and then 3,000 times before they could walk. Without falling down. If we think about how we learn to write, could we write perfectly right away? No. Could we read perfectly right away? No. We all had to learn things and failure was, say, a normal part of the learning process. That's how you train gut trust and awareness. What suppresses? Too much certainty where everything should be analyzed to death. Don't make decisions before you know everything. Promotion based pure on analytical strengths and punishment for making mistakes. We need to create a culture where it's, where people are allowed to experiment. That creates trust in the gut, to make it in one word. If you now, this is my opinion, I put my opinion here. What did I see in many development programs? There is trained on emotional intelligence, improved self-awareness, strength relationships, better communication skills, psychology safety, all great, but not enough for that growth. I came aware we need development of vulnerable confidence, what I spoke about. I dare to be honest, but I'm also confident about myself. So that is actually, who knows the book I'm Okay, You're Okay, or Transactional Analysis? Ever heard of it? Ah, really? Luckily, I'm not the only one who has an overknowledge of all those kind of different kind of theories and think, what are you doing? Transactional Analysis goes from the principle I'm okay, you're okay. And one of the sentences is actually unconditional acceptance or love. Unconditional acceptance of love means I accept you or I love you. It does not mean I accept all your behaviors. So you are an amazing person, but it doesn't mean I like that you put your feet on the couch. But the feet on the couch does not mean you as a person are bad. That means only have bad behavior. So splitting behavior and the being. And in confidence, the vulnerable confidence is based on that. Me, myself, and I are good. My behavior is not always perfect. Does it make sense what I'm saying? This concept? So that is my— I love to say the sentence to myself, for example, I'm amazing. It doesn't mean— it does not mean I'm perfect. And this is a decisive presence without incomplete data. So training people to make decisions even if they don't know everything, and development of the whole system metacognition. Let me come back in the next slide what I mean with that. Commitment practice, act before full analysis, interoceptive sensibility. Now, what do I mean with those 2 words? Because they think, oh, not everybody is aware of metacognition or interoceptive sensibility. What is it? That is actually coming aware, is this capacity to sense the body internal states and know how reliable that sensing is. So you have a sensing in your stomach. What does it mean? As an example, your stomach can feel tight based on the fact that you have a fear of flying. Your stomach can feel tight because you have a fear of spiders. Your stomach can feel tight because you have an important presentation. Your stomach can feel tight because you have your first date with probably the love of your life. Your first year, your stomach Your stomach can feel tight because you're hungry. Your stomach can feel tight because you were eating too much. Maybe you were eating something wrong. So there are multiple reasons why your stomach can have the same sensation. So it's actually coming aware, hey, what's actually happening inside me and what could be the meaning of that? How reliable is it? The other one, somatic mindset hypothesis. Is decisions made guided by bodily signals. What I mean with that, that this research done in, say, firefighters who were really experienced, and when they would go, say, in a burning building, they could almost sense what to do, uh, run out, put water in there, uh, do other things without all the knowledge Their bodily signals gave them, say, what we call sometimes intuition to make decisions. So it is the intuitional part. Vertical development is actually how do we create, say, that leadership going up. How can we create more equality in our decision centers when we go vertical aligning and don't fall in the pitfall, the best salesperson becomes the sales manager. Because we saw that many times to happen. The best IT nerd becomes the manager of the IT department. And actually what he probably, what he or she probably lacks is emotional skills. So how can you manage a group of people when you were the best in managing a computer? Those kind of things. And the other one is a self-authoring mind, the trust capacity that actually holds your internal authority and don't feel too much influenced by the external expectations. Hold your own truths. Although other people maybe disagree. Like every, I can say, I think almost every really inventor of this world kept their own truths. Although people say it's not possible, but they kept their own truths and therefore all those research and companies are there. If J.K. Rowling had listened to the first 10 publishers, she would never have published Harry Potter. But she believed in her story. And so there are many. Who knows the song Bohemian Rhapsody of Queen? Don't tell me you don't know it. Otherwise, we're really. I'm kicking you out right away out of the session. We're not kidding, kidding, kidding, kidding. But do you know what the producer of Queen said about this song? It's horrible. It's too long. The words don't make sense. You have to skip it. Freddie Mercury, who was really a badass, said, we keep it like that. They changed producer. Now it's one of the most popular songs in the Western world already for 20, 30 years because they kept their truth. That's actually self-authoring mind. It is not always stubbornness. It is really believing based on multiple facts that you are right. It's not just plain stubbornness. That's something different. Because that is actually seeing facts around you that you should change but don't willing to do it. Those things actually are helping the gut to train and actually help the whole awareness of the whole 3 systems. And the 3 wise people need this to fully be trained, be learned, get their insights. Makes sense up to now? Because for me this makes so much sense. But for some people, maybe I throw out now 4 different kinds of researches and insights and say it took me a couple of years to understand this. So if you understand it in a couple of minutes, I'm just freaking jealous of you. Luckily, I have some confidence in myself that I don't write research that I'm kidding. Okay, so this is actually what we should develop as as we coach leaders, these 4 things. Because what happens under stress? And when we get stressed, our protective systems go up. What's the protective system of the head in general? We become more analytical, more perfectionism. We keep more order, we become more OCD, and we actually put emotional distance from it. Does somebody recognize this in, not of course in themselves, but in their partners? Friends? Yes, all your partners and friends have this. Not, not, not now, Sharon. We don't have this. You're kidding. Of course we have. If the heart gets stressed, what happens? We become more pleasing. Ah, please, Sharon. I know you like me. Come on. We become more caretaking. Hey, Nadia, do you like another cup of coffee? Shall I help you out with doing shopping? Orina, should I help you with making some emails? Maybe like we'd be more caretaking. It connects almost with the 5 Love Languages, if you know the book. And more approval seeking. Hey, by the way, don't you think I'm doing a great job now? Please say yes. My approval seeker is now active. If you say no, then maybe I need some emotional support. Or we like to be more peacekeeping. We like, we don't speak out anymore and we'd like to please everybody. Oh, what happened there? If you ever saw the Who Knows the Sitcom Friends, then you know Monica, the chef, she shows more this behavior when there is stress on it. Okay, the last one, what happens if her gut gets a little bit more under stress? And my girlfriend says, ah, Chris, this is you. And I totally disagree. I become more enduring. So I push, push through all the limits. So we work to 3 o'clock in the night. I become more controlling. So I like to be in control of everything. We don't delegate anymore. I'm becoming rebellious. So I do it my way or the highway and like to pretend I know. I become the big performer. Yeah, because those help you to win. But it doesn't help you in general if you work in a team. These are 12 different states that could happen when one of your 3 wise advisors gets stressed. And where's the stress coming from? From old patterns, old beliefs, old learning, old experiences. Your parents, your friends, your divorce, your betrayal, Your job loss, I don't know, whatever happened in our life, an accident, a car accident, you slipped with skiing, I don't know, food poisoning, whatever you had, surgeries, all those can have an effect and create, say, old memories, old coping mechanisms. But they can put this on. Coming back to the, to say, the scores. Now you see actually where C-suite C-suite leaders have the most closest range of numbers with each other because they can use all 3 of them and probably has less of these. They jump in these, does not jump in these states because they have more a trust system. Because if you have a massive trust in yourself, in the others, in the process, you don't have to jump in this so much. Does it make sense? Because if I'm totally confident, I hope I don't have to perform. If I'm totally confident, I don't have to please more because no, I'm okay. If I'm confident, I don't have to be over-perfectionism because I know good enough is good enough. So it's those 3 different layers. The trust factor is so important in the blood-brain. 3 findings: same performance is not the same profile. To raise to the top, you need a different kind of attitude, different kind of brain balance. A low gut score is in general a ceiling for people really to go higher. And gut ceiling, I mean the trust factor we spoke about constantly. Of course, besides trust, you like to win, you like to perform, also the other parts, but also the trust factor. And EQ without all the 3 wise people on your table talking and listening to doesn't help. We don't need more emotional intelligence. We need more balance. That doesn't mean not everybody needs more emotional intelligence, because I think some people we know who are in the presidential suite of the, of our countries or in companies could need some more EQ. But that's not what I mean. directly. It is more a balancing of all 3 of them. So if you would say, if you would train leaders in my idea or coach them, these are 4 things that could help. One, a 3-brain dominance or interperceptive baseline test. Which of your 3 brains are now so Making the decisions. Secondly, let's work on the trust factors, the eight factors from Paul Zak. Thirdly, start training the somatic practice that knowing what I feel, knowing what I sense, knowing what it means, getting aware of our own body assessments. And four, whole metacognition. The 4 different pillars I said there. If you can bring this, say, in your coaching, in your leadership, and if you're training leaders, if you can bring this in, they will jump through the roof on happiness with you. They already do that, but then even more. Makes sense up to now what I'm saying?

Yes.

Okay. One thing about the test, let's also put it in perspective. It is a 3-brain test that works. Only 3% have that balanced score. There are— when I did this presentation prepared, it was 5,218 tests. Now it is 5,500 somewhere. English, 75%. Croatian, Turkish, Italian, Norwegian are the other biggest contributors. Everything that had less than 70 scores I did not include because then actually the statistical trust in that became less. You need a certain amount to say prediction about the scores. There are 620 leaders in this test, and that means statistically it's trustable. There's only one thing. Everybody here did the test by himself. I did not select people if they're more or less successful. Uh, I did not, uh, know gender and I don't know what, and I don't, I do know what kind of industries they come from. So, but so we could say it's a general population, but I could also say people who are interested in this are probably more already in that good state than people are less interested in that because already you need to have a self-learning capacity to do a test. You have to have interest in yourself. And it already is a quality that helps you to develop. Yeah, actually, people who don't like to do the test or any test are extremely interesting to see actually how they, how you can balance the results of tests. But that is hard. People who don't like to do the test and then you force them to do the test, then the trust factor in the reliability of the test is also not there. In general, when I spoke with this, who are statistically extremely well-developed people, they say you can trust the outcomes of what you just shared with a 95% of probability that what you say is true. Now that's rather, I would love to have 95% trustability when I buy shares or don't buy shares. That would be amazing. No, but I have to say it. So globally it holds. Main findings are stable across culture groups based on dominant shifts by culture. And there's one little thing, Mediterranean and Latin responders have a little bit higher heart-brain score and the Nordic countries, so Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, Norway, Finland have a little bit more head-brain dominance. And if you know it, we call it the Latin lovers and all those kind of stuff in South America, where the rumba and the samba and the Rio festival is in, the carnival, you know they have more fieu de vivre, more that lightness of the heart. So you see that actually cultural coming back. Wat is kerns? Analyse, al je zet. Gender by gender, industry by brain interaction. I need more numbers for that and generational shifts because up to now also age was not say in my questionnaire. Those two things will be in by the way. Gender and age will I put in the test from this moment onwards to see in the future what does actually give us for answers. The five findings in glass got us a wired dominant brain. Profession predicts dominance, or you could say dominance predicts profession. Chicken or egg? Are we more heart-brain oriented, therefore we become coach, or we become coach and we get more and more heart-brain? I think both is true. Based on what Jung once said, 87% or 83% of all the therapists are wounded healers. I could put it also somewhere on coaches. We have our own History, but makes us more willing to jump into the coaching world. McKinsey and the three brains really map to map to each other. The same actually with Paul Sachs oxytocin and with the five dysfunctions of team. The head softens, the gut activates at the top. An absence of a low gut is a ceiling for say career growth. To give it in a few sentences, leaders are not more intelligent, nor more emotionally intelligent. They developed really a trust factor that lets also the other brains operate. What survives the Klimt is balance, not specialization. And balance expressed through trust is what employees actually need, in my opinion. So just for you, and if you know the movie The Matrix, you know the picture. Do you choose the red or the blue pill? And there's more reflection for yourself. You now know what I presented. It makes sense. You know it, you know three brains, you know this, this, this, this. And based on research, if you don't train it based on the forgetting curve, what we all have, if you know, if you know the forgetting curve, that was in two weeks, two months is what you now just learned somewhere a name in your head. Oh yeah, I know three brains. I heard about it. Head, heart, gut. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For my passion, I would love that you embody it. Why is that? Because it will make you as a coach— I will not say you're not good— much better than you are already, because you can really do embodiment coaching. I do a training for that, uh, for everybody who showed up. So that's the 10 of you or the 8 of you in this moment. You get a beautiful discount if you join. Why is that? Because I really Appreciate your time being here. Your willingness to learn, to do that is there. There's no need for something else. I just like to show it for you.

Okay.

Get it into your bones or in your blood vessels or in your blood, and you can do it. Because if you fall back on your dominant brain, what happens to everybody, it's better to fall back on your 3 brains than fall back on one brain. At least that's my experience. It starts next month in different time zones, so everybody can find the time zone that is suitable for him or her. And by the way, if you're an ICF coach and you need every 3 years 40 development points, as you know, this one ticks all the boxes right away. You got your 40 development points right away, and we have to develop ourselves anyhow. So why don't you choose something that really makes a difference for you? Is my opinion. They become irreplaceable. And if you think, I first like to read more about it, Chris, I love your concept, I love the 3 brains, but I first like to have, say, the easy entrance. I wrote 3 books for the price of a coffee in one of the hotspots in Madrid. You can buy one of the books. So I talked there about 3 coffees or 2 coffees in Paris. I came aware when I visited Paris and was sitting next to the Eiffel Tower or to the Eiffel, and I was like, what, one coffee that price? If you like to do the Dutch way, and I really encourage you for that, at least if you did not do that up to now, do the 3 brains test. That's free. No strings attached. You get an email back with a one-page of your score and what it means for you and personalized based on the score you have. And it shows you actually of your 3 advisors you have at the table, which one is the loudest voice and which one is the most silent voice. So in your own reflective work, you can already start maybe bringing that voice more in, in your work, in your life, in your your coaching. That's my story. I hope you enjoyed it. So I do a stop share and I will say questions.

Sorry, I had a question. I can't find the hand raise button. That's okay.

That's okay. I love that you do the human approach. You just raise your hand or just say something, you know.

Okay. So as a coach, you know, we are supposed to speak to, uh, speak in the language which our client understands, you know, thinking person, you ask questions accordingly. So how do you know the client in front of you, which part of his, which brain is dominant for the client? And my second part of the question is, how do you change your questioning according to that so that you can appeal to his dominant brain?

A really good question. I would say come tomorrow and you hear even more. Uh, the easiest way is, uh, To listen to the language. Because the moment I say, Rini, I cannot digest what you just said, which brain would probably be talking? The gut brain. I cannot wrap— I don't think this is good for the people, Rini. It's not good for my team. That's the heart. That's the heart. It's not good for my people.

I think it's the heart.

I think it is, but it is not good for my people.

Ah, okay. That's all.

Yes, you, you think about it, but you feel about people. And Rini, I don't understand your question actually. Boom, then we're upstairs. So it gives already an insight what's happening there. So because everything we sense in our body has to come through our throat. So it has to be processed here because this is the only part of us that knows words. So every sensation we have has to be verbalized. So we can use language as an Entry portal, besides the nonverbal communication and other kind of things. The other thing, and that is really what I do in the training, is actually opening our own three centers. So getting embodiment, so we almost can sense what is happening with the client. In in the idea of who have you ever entered a room and had something like hey there's a strange atmosphere in this room. Did they have a fight together? Or what happened here? But actually our sensing system works. So if you do coaching with the same kind of sensing system, you can almost become aware of what the brain is talking because we have mirror neurons. 30% of our brains can be utilized as mirror neurons. So they mirror the sensations, the feelings, the actions, the behavior of the client. And we really have to get into perspective in ourselves and know, hey, what what do I sense now in myself? It can help to become aware what the client is doing. But that is really that metacognition that we spoke about. So there are multiple ways. The easy way is, hey, what do they say? The more advanced way is, hey, what do I feel what they feel? And if you use both, then, then you go for the top-notch. You can play with it. So that's there. And how can you change? Start using also the same links in the beginning.

Yeah.

clients really, I don't understand that. I really like to know the concept of coaching, what's happening there. They don't start saying, now it's all about feelings and sensations, dear client, because the clients think, uh, what? I think, now I understand your question here. And well, this is process-based, question-based, analysis-based. So we go, say, from multiple factors to an awareness, what is happening inside you. From the awareness, you see different kinds of Choices, and from the choices we can start distilling what are the pros and cons of those. A logical process, but oh wow, that's nice, logical process, that's good. So we start adjusting our language to what's happening to the client. For the full body awareness, sooner or later we have to ask the client, say you would just follow your heart, what would you do? Or say you would just follow your gut, what would you do? And see, come aware Notice if they can access those wisdom centers, or is that wisdom person on the table, only one is there? Because then our job is somewhere also bringing those in. If what I'm saying now in one big blurb makes sense to you on a logical level, because to me it makes so much sense, but also come over here, boom, I throw actually the whole process right away in 2 minutes on your table.

I got it. Thank you. Thank you for that.

Yes. What kind of questions we have in the last minutes we have?

I would say, you know, it's a lot and it, it's a little challenging to process some of it, but what I'm taking away is many of us need more gut-brain on the table and And trust is sort of the, it makes it all work.

Yeah, it's a beautiful thing for us as coaches, also for our clients. Actually, it is the balancing of the 3, the 3 wise people on your table that we can listen to all 3 of them and don't let one and not let one or 2 run the show. That's the whole thing about it. And yes, I know it's a lot, Sharon, because in my own ambition, I don't like to give a presentation where half of the presentation is knowledge and the other half is selling you my program. What the programs do, because I really disliked it. So I like to give you something like a full, a full story.

It, it was, it was, and it was a wonderful way to think and it allowed me to, to try and use more sense. And, and I saw myself in several of the slides and, but just thinking about, know, as leaders and how they actually think differently. So it's been very insightful, and thank you.

Thank you. Thank you for being here.

The other way.

Bye. Sorry, I had one more question. So I'm just trying to think how to phrase this. Okay. Has there been situations in coaching where a leader's told you that I'm between my— I can't choose between my gut feeling and my brain, you know, what my gut tells me to do versus what my brain wants me to do. And—

Oh, absolutely. Because when you start asking those questions, say you would follow your heart, what would you do? They come aware a lot of times of, say, an argument in between. Hey, my head says yes, my heart says no. Why did there— if you go to music, there's so many songs about that. So they come aware, actually, if I would follow my heart, I would say we don't make that decision. If I would follow the logic, I would say we do the decision. If I follow my gut feeling, I don't know actually what is wise. So actually, and that is actually what, if you come back to us as coaches, we create awareness in the client and help them actually then to start figuring out how can you all synthesize to 3 that you all start working together. And what does your head need to know more to get some security in there? What does your heart need to really say, I can live with this, even though it's not maybe perfect for the people? And what does your gut need to really say, no, let's put all my effort in there? And from that awareness, we get there somewhere.

Thank you.

You're more than welcome. So Nadia, last question for you or not? I see you, so I just make it personal.

Well, it's hard for me because I really hear with a low volume, so I have some difficulties anyway. I really appreciate the the view, the overview about these three brains, and I feel when I do coach, I do coach some entrepreneur that understand with which brain they are talking or. Seeing their reality is is really is really fundamental, and now I have some clue to better understand their point of view and to talk to them accordingly. Perfect, beautiful. Thank you very much.

And I see Karina Karina O'Flaherty stepping in. Hallelujah! You thought I would break his tongue with my last name. Thank you so much.

Yeah, you, you, I don't sound Irish. It's an Irish name, but I sound French.

Okay. I was already thinking, where's this coming from? But yes, it makes sense what you're saying. French. Yeah. Irish. Sorry. Okay. Besides that. Yeah. Last question for you.

No, I think it's a really interesting framework and really helpful. What, just an observation that came to me is Discerning when your gut is actually being a bit— you use the word when it's becoming a bit, I would say, I'm going to use egocentric or whatever, because I've observed that the more the leaders are successful and they can be quite carried away into, I trust my gut, I'm decisive. And then there is this, basically, are we getting the balance right? And as a kind of, you mentioned that your big vision is to make the world a better place, shouldn't be kind of— elevating a bit, maybe something that's more heart, you know, the global. Yeah.

It makes— what you say makes totally sense. If we have, say, in my words, let's call it an unhealthy gut dominance. So an egocentric— because the gut brain can be egocentric. It is egocentric because it likes to win. And the pity is, if you put a gut brain and a heart brain person next to each other, the gut brain person 9 out of 10 wins. Because it just pushes the boundaries so much that it will win because that's its whole objective. So therefore you see them more in leadership roles. But when we talk about development, it's actually developing all 3 of the speakers, because what you describe is actually where the 3 brains, where the gut brain is the most dominant and just overrules actually the heart and the gut. The, the, in the 3 wise people on the table, the gut just says, okay, nice that you all spoke. I will make the decision. Just shut up for a minute. But that's actually not what we like to see. What I mean in saying that the trust factor, the inner perspective of saying my gut brain says this, my heart brain says this, my head says this, these are the sensations. If I hear to all the 3 voices, what should I do with this? A balanced decision. What is good for me, the company, and what will be successful? What is good for the people who are actually there and the stakeholders? And what actually makes sense also for the short run, but also for the long run? You have those 3 questions there, it helps. What you describe actually are the leaders who just listen to their gut and say, leave it.

Yeah, because, because, you know, things that I observe, like for example, I was working for a company and they made a decision, uh, senior at, at a very top level that had, you know, that was definitely a gut decision. And it just looks like is very present in a lot of companies. So I'm just— but, but I understand that your framework is actually helping to not be in there.

Absolutely. Also, that's why I say get the picture of the 3 people on your table. All 3 should be listened to. If we talk about toxic leadership, it's one-brain leadership, 9 out of 10. And it can be too much brain. It's more about me, but it can also be too much heart. So the real things are not discussed because we avoid every confrontation. It's also toxic. So the weak people stay in the company and mismanagement is allowed and is accepted. That's actually also a heart-brain company because gut-brain will never allow mismanagement. Heart-brain allows mismanagement. And too much head-brain dominance can also create a toxic leadership because we forgot the emotions of the people and say, no, no, this has to finish because this is there, it has to be perfect. And perfectionism also can lead to toxic leadership culture. So it's all 3 of them. If one of them becomes really dominant, there's a huge chance of toxic leadership from all 3 different perspectives.

But at the end, who decides?

Yeah, that's why I say if one decides, it becomes toxic. If all the 3 somewhere find an Okay, the decision comes from a consensus of those. Yeah, that's where you listen to all 3 and it does, okay, just go back. If there's a burning, if you're in a burning house, it makes sense to listen to your gut and get out instead of first doing a total analysis about the heat, the temperature, the fire, if all the walls are warm and spend there 10 minutes on the analysis because then probably you're burned. So it's also in that situational leadership which one is to use now? Situational, we have to be sometimes be more dominant in one brain, but in global, we have to be able to use them all 3. Like, because even if you listen to all 3, yes, you can listen to one more based on the circumstances. That's situational leadership. The question is, I considered all the 3 options.

Hmm.

Then from perspective, this is the consensus or the best one to choose.

Yeah, thank you so much.

Thank you for bringing it up, because in my mind it's so logical, and the moment you ask, I thought, oh, maybe that's a little bit underdeveloped in my talk about, say, that difference in there. So thank you for asking, Karine.

Thank you, thank you very much.

So thank you for your Being here, I said I will upload not tomorrow, probably Saturday, everything on YouTube so you can see it back and you can watch it again, Dini or Nadia. Okay, it was a lot. So okay, and the sound was not the best, Nadia. So maybe if you see the recording, you can wear— oh, the sound is good now. Now I know what Christoffel is saying. Ah, now it makes sense. That's good. So I wish you a beautiful Wednesday or Thursday, beautiful Thursday. And I hope to see you once in a training, or maybe when you read the book and send me an email. For one thing, if you have a question, you can always email me because my passion to make us the best that we are is always there.

Thank you.

I wish you a beautiful day and maybe to later.

Thank you. Bye-bye.