BEST Way to Negotiate Salary To Double Your Offer ft. Austin Belcak

All right, looks like we're officially live. Well, welcome Everybody, to.

Another LinkedIn YouTube live here. This is the first time we've done the double stream, so I'm super excited. Madeline is super excited. But yeah. So today we want to talk about a topic that I think is going to be pretty relevant for a lot of people coming up. We know there are a lot of people in the job search who are actively pursuing roles, maybe even in the interview stages, but there are going to be a ton of roles coming up in January. Anyway, so Mattel and I got together and we said we want to make sure that all of you have all the tools you need to negotiate the best compensation package that you can possibly get, because negotiation is so critical at every stage for your earning potential. So that's basically what we're going to do on today's session. And we have a bunch of great stuff lined up. If you all stick with us, we're going to cover how to cultivate the right mindset for great negotiation, what you should be negotiating. There's lots of stuff outside of salary that is really, really important. How to handle the full salary conversation. We're talking about start to finish. And we'll also teach you how to effectively research, because research is so key to being successful here. So for those of you who don't know me, my name's Austin. I'm the founder of Cultivated Culture, and I'm going to be coming from the job seeker side because that is my experience. But, Madeline, who. Who are you? Tell us who you are and the perspective you're coming from.

Hello. Yes. Amazing intro. I am Madeline Mann of the channel, Self made millennial, and I'm coming from the human resources, the recruiter perspective, because that is what my background in I am is in the HR function every day. So I'm going to give you all the behind the scenes.

Awesome. I love it. And before we dive in, we just want to hear where everybody's tuning in from. I think I'm in the New Jersey, New York area. Madelyn, you are in, correct?

Yes, yes. I'm seeing all the, the, the hello. Stream in. Hello, everyone.

Robert Kevin Satish. We got a lot of people. This is awesome. I'm pumped. So where do, where do we start here? Madeline, like, what is the first step when it comes to thinking about effective salary negotiation? Like, what is the first thing we need to be thinking about?

Well, so we need to get into the right mindset. And I know you're good at this. So what are some of your thoughts around getting into the right mindset before you go into the salary conversation.

Definitely. I think mindset is so critical. And before we even get into the right mindset, I think it's important to just call out some of the at least objections or mental blocks or self limiting beliefs that I've seen with people who go through this process. Right. So when I talk to folks about salary negotiation, it's usually something that they shy away from. So one of the first things I want to ask everybody who's in the chat here is how many of you all negotiate salary every single time for a job? Like at your last role, did you or did you not negotiate salary? I'd love to get a yes or no in the chat just to get an understanding of where people are at and feel free to share. If you said no, feel free to share a reason. And typically the ones that I run into are the fear of being rejected. So the fear of asking for more money and then having this company say, whoa, you're super greedy, like we need to remove you from the process. Another is a fear of lingering retribution. So you know, I started this job, but I asked for more money. And so everybody remembers me as the person who always asks for more. And that's sort of the reputation that I carry with me. And then finally just plain and simply not having the right negotiation skills. I think this is one of the biggest sources of fear around this conversation. So for me as a candidate, the way that I viewed this was I would look at the company that I was planning to interview at and I would go look at the amount of money that they're making and I would go look at how many employees they had and I would divide the total gross income or revenue on an annual basis by the number of heads. And I would say, here's how much each person is worth at this company. And I think Microsoft when I started it was something like a couple million dollars per employee. And I also knew like I had an idea of the deal sizes and stuff like that. And so I said to myself, look, if I ask for an extra 10k or 20k or 50k, here's how it backs out ROI wise for the company. And so an extra, even 50k for a lot of larger companies, but an extra 10k, that's sort of a drop in the bucket for a lot of these companies. That's a really big deal to me though. And so if I push for that and I show the value, the return that this company is going to get, if you pay me an extra 10k or whatever it is. I'm going to be able to bring you x hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. That's a great deal for the company. And so that's the mindset that I sort of brought with me to the table. And that's how I gained some confidence here. But from the employer side, Madeline, I know there is an expectation around negotiation, I think. Can you share a little bit more about what you're expecting to see from a candidate when they're thinking about or when you're thinking about having this conversation with them?

Yeah, I think there was something that was important that you said. There is that you said I was able to show the value of them having a higher salary for me. And I think that that's the key. Right. When employers are expecting you to negotiate. They are. That's the truth of the matter. But the thing is that people often take that in the wrong direction. So they will say, you know, Austin, I have a lot of car payments I have to pay off, so I need this higher salary. You know, I want to live close to the beach. I want to do this, I want to do that. It's all about their personal finances, which, trust me, a lot of people have used this as a negotiation tactic. To me, I've been on the other side of negotiation, of the company side of thousands of negotiations, and people will start with that. But what you touched on and what we are going to go so much deeper into in this video is value, is equating.

The negotiation to the value in the market, to the value you bring to the table and whatnot. And that's what a company is looking for.

Awesome. And I just want to underscore the fact that you said that companies are expecting you to negotiate. I think that's something that a lot of people don't realize. The first offer is usually just an opening on the company side. And for the company, it's great if a candidate accepts that. Right. Because you get somebody with the level of talent that you were hoping for for a lower line item on your expense sheet, on your bottom line. That's a win, not a win for you as a candidate or as a job seeker. So I'm so glad that you mentioned that. And so mindset is definitely the first piece, but then I think the next step is understanding what's on the table. A lot of us think that I need a higher base salary, and that's. We laser in on that. So I'd love to hear from you, Madeline. Obviously you have, you're the person who is completing the offer letters and coming up with the packages. What other options are there for candidates to negotiate and how would you prioritize some of these in terms of what candidates should focus on and what they should maybe save for.

Later conversations in the negotiation?

Absolutely, yeah. And I'm watching the chat right now and it's so split right now between people saying, I did negotiate, I didn't negotiate, or here's why, or here's why I struggle. So hopefully some of these things that you also other things you can negotiate for will help to make it a little bit easier to negotiate because it's not always about, you know, a single number. So I would say that there's certain things that you might not think of such as really understanding what do you value. Right. Looking at what do you value? Some people. I had one person who he really valued, uh, just having a office with a window. Like he had previous companies it had, he'd been in no, no window offices. And he knew that being next to a window was going to truly change the way he felt. So really thinking about, okay, you know, while that might be something financial, fighting for something like that could truly be the difference between you being happy and unhappy. There's other things like flex time, work from home. These, these doors are now wide open to negotiate for due to the current state of the world. So really emphasizing that as maybe not just a present time thing, but maybe a longer term negotiation. You can also negotiate for if they have equity or profit sharing. Really understanding that, asking them more questions about it and potentially getting more shares. And there's also things like if you're going to move for a job, get that relocation assistance, ask them for assistance in moving. That can sometimes be 5, 10, $15,000 of them. Helping you move your life and your family, depending on how far the move is and how much stuff you have, how big big maybe your family is and whatnot. And so just really thinking about, okay, what do you want? And then the, finally one of the ones that I've seen people really like is sponsoring their development. So having a certain amount of budget allocated towards them going to classes or conferences or already pre determining, hey, these are the certifications I want to obtain while working at your company. They're worth, you know, this is going to cost X number of dollars. Can I have budget for that? All of these different things and that is amazing for them because they're like, wow, we're not just giving someone money, we are investing in them. And then they're Going to take those learnings back to our company and add more value. Certain things like this are just a bit of an easier sell.

Yeah, I love it. And I also love that you specifically mentioned having your priorities right. Like, for some people, having that window by the office may be worth more than an extra thousand bucks in base salary or whatever it is because of just the time that they spend at that desk by that window. And so having that clarity on your priorities is huge. Now, one thing that I hear a lot when we talk about this stuff is, first, wow, there's so many options. I didn't realize this, but when is the right time to bring all of that up? Right? Because I think for me, at the end of the day, in terms of what you're looking for and where you're going to get the most bang for your buck, a base salary increase is usually your best bet, if not some sort of bonus commission structure. But do I just lay this all on you at once, Madeline? Am I like, I want a raise, I want better bonus, I want the office with the window, I want continuing ed, and I just send this all in an email? Or do I start small and build up? Like, how do I. How do I sort of navigate through those options and make sure that I'm presenting everything, but I'm not seeming greedy or, you know, overwhelming the other person? What's the best way to go about that?

Yes, I would say that we definitely want to have these conversations later in the interview. Experience. The thing that happens, and this is a mistake people have, is that they think, I'm going to ask about salary and benefits and all these things on the first call. The reason why that is not the best move is, first of all, you're spending time on that versus other things where they could be really getting to know you. It makes it come across as. That's really your. Your top focus versus finding the best fit. And also, I guarantee you this, you have more negotiation power once they've fallen in love with you, once. Once they want you. I have seen so many companies where, you know, you're about. Towards the end of the process, you start negotiating with them, and they'll go a little bit over their budget because they're like, hey, we don't want to restart this process. We already know your value. And so we're excited and we're excited to invest in you. And so your. Your negotiation power is so much greater. And so then once you get to that stage, towards the end where they do a verbal offer, they say, hey, we're interested in moving forward with an offer. That's when you want to have, ideally, a verbal conversation about some of these things. I think, you know, not necessarily loading them all up with everything at once. But there is an interesting thing, is that, you know, you, if you ask for three things or four things and you get two of them, make sure that you had always the intention of only getting two. Sometimes you ask for a few more things than you actually would need to accept the offer so that you end up, you never want to ask for only the bare minimum of what you want because you'll, you'll be disappointed.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And so negotiation is something that is sort of like, I'm really, really interested in the psychology behind it and I've, like, read a lot about it because it's just fascinating to see how we handle these conversations and not just in the job search, but in like, buying a car or literally, like, where should we go? Dinner? Any of these questions. And.

There'S this thing that's basically called anchoring, where you sort of set the top anchor. And as a candidate, usually you're going to be the one setting the anchor. And I think one of the things to realize is that first companies, unless you're like, wildly, like, if the role has a 120k budget and you come in at 180, that's pretty far out of the ballpark. And you can probably speak better to what an upper limit would be in terms of feasibility. But even if you go a little bit over, but you express that you're open to negotiation, one that sets the bar at X. And now the company knows, like, okay, we're moving forward with that assumption, the company's going to try to come in lower, but you're setting the bar here instead of here or here, where you kind of lose that room to negotiate. So I think it's so important to one, go a little bit higher or drop in a few more things than you were expecting. And it's sort of like, you know, Santa's Christmas list, if you will. I tried to dig up a hat before our Live today because so many people asked in the post and I couldn't find one. But, you know, you're a little kid and you're like, santa, I want this and this and this and this. And then, you know, maybe you get one or two of those things. But it's still exciting. Like, it's the same type of situation here. But I think that's, that's a great point. You know, start small with the big stuff. And then you can expand as you get deeper in the process and the conversations go forward.

Yeah. And so going off of that, let's talk about research. So what when we are trying to identify that range that you're saying about not going too high but not going too low or whatnot, how do you do that research?

Yeah, so there's a couple of, there's a couple things I'm thinking about here. And really, when it comes down to having this conversation, 80% of your successes is in the prep, at least from what I found. If you know the numbers, if you know the data, if you have your list of prioritized wants and desires in terms of salary and other benefits, that's huge. So right off the bat, I'm looking at numbers and I'm basically looking to understand a couple of things here. You know, first, what's the average that people are getting paid in this role? And what does that compare or how does that compare to my current salary? And then two, what, what are the ranges? Like, what is the lower limit and the upper limit to the total comp for this role? And by understanding those numbers, I can know one, what I can think sort of expect that I'm walking into. You know, am I walking into a role where the average is X? Because that's sort of the goal that I want to go for. But then the upper range kind of sets my anchor, if you will, knowing like, hey, here's what the highest paid person in this role is getting paid. So let me try to figure out something in there that is paying me more. But it's still feasible for the company on the other side because we want to find something that's a jump for us. That's, that's not too far out of the budget or the range that the company has set. So how do you do that? Well, there's a couple of great resources out there. And Madeline, please feel free to add in if I forget a few of them. Glassdoor is a great place to start, and that's usually the first place that a lot of people start. Salary.com and PayScale are two other good ones. One of my favorites that is not as well known is a site called H1B data.info so basically, when a company sponsors an H1B visa or a visa for somebody coming in internationally, there's a requirement to disclose the salary. And so the salary becomes available and h1bdata.info actually posts these salaries on their site. They sort of aggregate them so if you want to be, let's say, a partner manager at Microsoft, you can go look up what a partner manager at Microsoft who was sponsored for a visa, what they got paid, and that's a real number that was paid to a real person. It's not a guess, it's not manufactured or kind of doctored, as sometimes Glassdoor stuff can be. So I always really like to check that out. But I'm not just looking at my company here. A lot of people will come to me and say, I can't find any info on this specific role at this specific company. I also like to look at their competition and I like to look at what the competition is paying for the same role or similar roles, because that's going to give me a sense of the market as a whole, not just this company that I'm going after. And this can be useful for handling these conversations confidently in many ways, which we'll get to when we kind of go back and forth. But what am I specifically looking for in terms of numbers? Well, my goal here is to find the average and then essentially come up with that number that we talked about. That's a bump for me, but is still within your range. And that usually I found, is in the ballpark of like the 75% to 85% of the upper limit of the range. So if the average is 50k and the upper limit is 100k, maybe we're in the 75k to 85k range. Just making the math, like super easy for me. But that's the number that I'm going to dial into and I'm going to memorize that number and I'm going to keep it in my pocket for the conversation that we're inevitably going to have. But in terms of research, I mean, obviously you are very methodical with this stuff. Is there anything else that you would add or a resource that I missed and your thoughts on figuring out some of this stuff?

I think what you said is perfect in that you need to use all of these resources because the bottom line is salary data is abstract, it's not necessarily correct, and it changes. And there's a lot of different factors. So checking all the resources you named and just getting a holistic picture will help you to be a lot more confident. And I would also say that a lot of employers do really, you know, they invest in expensive resources to get accurate salary data. So if a company comes back at you and says, hey, here's the data we have, I would say that there's a Few things to know if the data is quite different from what you were looking at. One of the things I noticed is you might cite your most recent salary. You know, you don't have to give your most recent salary typically for most companies, but you might cite that as a data point of what you should be paid, which is a reasonable data point because someone has paid this amount for my skills and services before. That's that. That is a legitimate data point. But what people will do is, such as they'll be, you know, in. They'll be in San Francisco wanting a job in, you know, Philadelphia, and they'll say, oh, I was paid this before, I should be paid this again. And those markets, the percentage of difference in, in the cost of living is so different that that data point is no longer very valid. So you need to make sure that you're paying attention to the city where the job will be. So if the person in Philadelphia is saying, I'm going to pay you significantly less than what you're making in San Francisco, but if you do the cost of living adjustment, it's actually more. So people sometimes think that companies are like bamboozling them, but it's actually them doing their thoughtful research. So pay attention to the size of company, pay attention to the city. Those factors actually do play into the salary. And that can determine if you probably should make a lot more or maybe, you know, it might have to be adjusted based on where you're going.

Awesome. That's such a great tip. I remember, like, people at Microsoft would move to different areas of the country for whatever reason, and Microsoft would have, like a legitimate percent adjustment for they would have a base salary and then they would adjust it up or down based on the cost of living in the area. So people going from New York to, you know, a place in Florida that wasn't, you know, say, in Miami or whatever, where sometimes they had a little bit of sticker shock when, when they got down there. So that's a, That's a great point.

I think it'd be super helpful for. Sorry, go ahead.

No, no, let's do it.

Sweet. I feel like it'd be super helpful for people to kind of hear us do like a little bit of a mock salary conversation, if you will. And so just to set the stage before we kind of jump into the questions on my side, the way that I'm viewing this is exactly as you mentioned. I'm starting general and I'm starting high, and then I'm moving into the details and the specifics as we get deeper into the conversation. And I also, I don't want to give away too much too early because one, I want to have something to fall back on. But two, there's a lot of research that shows that concessions can be really powerful. And so there's this philosophy, philosophy of, in sales and in negotiation, of working to get to the no first. Like, once you get the no, that's when the conversation starts. And so, you know, you almost want to get to. You don't want to be outright disqualified, but I'm trying to kind of push you a little bit above your range and let you know that I'm still negotiable. And then as we start getting into the objections, you know, from your side and from my side, I want to make sure that I have legitimate reasons.

I want to make sure that I have more asks to make and legitimate reasons to make those asks. So that's sort of the philosophy that I'm thinking about when I go into this. And finally, I also want to make sure we talked about that 75 to 85% number. I also want to make sure that I have a minimum number I need to know before I go into this conversation. This is my breaking point. If we don't get above this line, I need to remove myself from the conversation because this isn't going to be worthwhile to me. And that line could be a base salary. That could be. If the base is here, then I need the office with the window and this other thing. But you need to have a very clear picture of both the top end of the range where you want to start, but also the absolute minimum that you're willing to accept where you can still take this role and feel comfortable. That's how I'm thinking about it. Starting general, starting large, and then getting specific and shrinking down on your side as the, let's say, recruiter in this conversation. To start, One, when are you most likely to begin the conversation? And two, what is your mindset going into that conversation with the candidate or job seeker.

With the salary discussion? For some companies, it doesn't happen until it gets serious towards the end. For a lot of companies, it's the very first conversation in that first interview where they're just checking off. Can you commute to this location? Can you work in this country? What are your salary requirements? So it's typically depending on the type of company, especially if they have, like, more of a formalized recruiter process, they'll typically ask it in the first interview or sometimes even on the application.

And do you have that just really quick to jump into that when it's on the application. I know some people can get tripped up by that and they, they, it sort of throws them off their game. So based on the stuff that we're talking about, like, and especially you being the gatekeeper on the other side, who's deciding who gets in and who doesn't, in a lot of cases, what's a good answer? Obviously, a salary that's within the range is what we're aiming for. But as a candidate, where it's sometimes hard to know what's a good way to handle that as a candidate, should we leave it blank? Should we just throw a number out there? How do you coach people on filling out that field in the application?

If you can leave it blank, that's great. I think a lot of them require like, it's a drop down and you have to choose one of them and then there's the star next to it where you can't move forward. So I would say with that it is problematic if you go way too high. Right. And I will say that I have seen that happen where it's just like, hey, like this person is out of. They're completely out of our range, like. And so then you get kind of auto rejected. So this is when that research really comes into play and really trying to find that range. And usually you want to give yourself a pretty big range. Like, you know, they're typically like $30,000 ranges between each one. So it's. There's room to play. But I would say then in the comments section, I recommend people writing open to negotiation. Right. Just no matter what you put in there, just put open to negotiation or looking for the best, like overall package or something like that, just to show that if you were, you know, a little bit too high, that you're showing that you are open to other options. But I know it's a tricky one. It's a real tricky one.

Yeah, but that's, that's super helpful because I think so. I love the advice of leave it blank if you can, but I do see the asterisk a lot. You know, the required field. But I think it's helpful to hear, you know, what, you know, the perspective from your side. You know, a lot of job seekers don't get that. So awesome. All right, so let's have this conversation and we'll go through it slowly and we'll kind of dissect from both sides, but I guess we'll assume that this is, I think, the more common Instance of having that conversation up front in the phone screen. So as a candidate, I'm showing up to this conversation and I have a cheat sheet either printed out or on my computer. And it has the minimum that I'm willing to accept. It has the average for the role, it has the upper end of the role, and then it has my 75 to 85% number that's right in there. And I have that all ready to go. So we're talking and we're having this first conversation. How do you broach the subject? What's the question that you're going to ask? When are you going to ask it? Is it towards the beginning? Is it towards the end? How are you feeling this out?

Yeah. So in this call, there's typically an introduction telling a bit more about the company, asking them, you know, what they do, whatnot. It's. Yeah, it's. It can. This question can fall anywhere in the conversation. And it's typically goes like, so, Austin, what are your salary requirements?

Awesome. So I also think that the language that you use is important, too. And we keep going on. I keep adding in, like, little notes for us, but I think it's important around the legality of how people ask for salaries. Right. Because especially in California, you're not allowed to ask for, for previous salaries. Right.

Yep.

And. But you can get around it by asking about expectations, right?

Yes. Yes. So exactly. You want to look up what your state's laws are, but in quite a few states. Yeah. You cannot ask, what is your current salary? What is your most recent salary?

Yeah. And that's great to know because some companies still do that. And if you're, if you're not aware as a candidate, you can sometimes feel like you're put in an awkward position. And that's a big red flag to think about for the, for everything else, like the whole consideration of the job. But. So if you ask me, you know what my salary expectations are. One of. So a lot of the best book that I found on negotiation, which I'm going to cite a lot here, is Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. Voss. It's a fantastic book and he has so many great principles, but one of the ones that he recommends is splitting the OR first, moving the negotiation away from monetary terms when possible and trying to create multiple fronts to negotiate on. Because if we're only talking about salary here, there's only one thing that's moving up or down or left or right. But if I introduce another variable into the, into the situation, one I sort of Put the onus or I put the ball back in your court. And if I do like a non financial term or I spin it back to you a non financial way, that sort of saves me sort of one move, if you will. So what I might do in this situation is say, well, Madeline, I'm so incredibly excited for this role. Talking to you over the last 30 minutes has been fantastic. Everything that you've mentioned checks all the boxes for what I'm looking for in this next role. In terms of salary, I'm definitely flexible. I'm definitely negotiable. My priority is to find the best fit though. That's really what I'm looking for before having that conversation. So I'm going to say that and I'm going to stop there. And my goal there is to one, I think it's important to know that I'm not expecting to get away with that. I'm expecting you to come back. But I've sort of put the ball in your court again and there's some psychology behind this around making concessions and sort of taking the conversation one step further. So I'm going to leave it there. What would your response be?

Yeah, I love the positivity, Austin. Like people always forget that part where it's like I'm really interested in your company. Like saying that straight out is so important. So that's fantastic. So this next thing would be is. I totally understand. Yes, we're definitely looking for that mutual fit. Just it would be good though to make sure that we are in the right ballpark. So could you give me some sort of range of what your expectations are?

Awesome. So I'm going to come back here and I'm going to spin it back on you and I'm also going to acknowledge what you said. So I'm going to start with the acknowledgement. I'm going to spin it back on you and I'm going to say totally. Madeline, I know that this process is time consuming for you and for everybody on your team and obviously hours spent interviewing people are hours away from work and productivity. So I don't want to waste anybody's time in order to get to a number that makes the most sense for both of us in the fastest and most direct route. Would you be willing to share the range that you have budgeted for this role? I'm going to stop there.

Yes.

The thing is that often I've seen recruiters share the range at this point. Well, you know, some of the candidates we're looking at, it's really between this number and this number that most of them are falling into. Quite a few of them do that. Now, if they say, honestly, Austin, we don't really have a range, I want everyone to know that that is almost never a lie. Like, I've never heard of that being a lie. Because here's what happens is recruiters want things to be clear for candidates. They want to be able to come forward and say, here's the salary. Here's exactly when you'll start and everything. But they work with hiring managers, and hiring managers are typically like, well, let's see out there. Like, let's just interview people and feel how they feel, and then we'll just determine based on their skills. I just want to keep it open. I don't want to settle. Like, maybe do we want to keep this like it is? Trust me, recruiters want to make it, like, black and white. Like, let's make this happen. So oftentimes, recruiters are flying blind being like, okay, we're going to do our best to find the best possible person and give them the most transparent experience possible. But typically, the hiring managers are like, well, I don't really want to commit to one type of salary, one type of level. I want to be able to determine that once the person walks in through the door. So I just want to say that that is that they might answer that. So let's say that I did say that. Austin, I don't actually have a range for you, and I totally get it. I totally get that. That would be a much more convenient thing for me to give you. But I've just been asked to, for my client to make sure that I get some sort of salary down here, just so that they understand what kind of realm you're living in financially, as far as your expectations. So just any sort of number, any sort of range would be a huge help.

Awesome. So I.

I love that. And I'm going to come back here with. With a couple of things, and first, I'm just going to state, I always find that whenever people get worried about if you're worried about something or if you're thinking about something, if you have a question, just put it out there and put it out there in a casual way. So at this point in my head, I might be thinking, well, if Madeline's not going to give me a range, I don't want to disqualify myself. I don't want to share this number that's way too high. So exactly to your advice earlier, Madeline, what I'm going to do is preface by saying, okay, if that is, if that's the case, if you need a range, I'm happy to share. I just want to, before I share the range, I just want to state that again, I'm incredibly excited about this opportunity. Everything I've read about the role seems like it's a perfect fit. All the research that I've done on the culture and I was listening to the CEO's keynote and the way that they described this new project or initiative or culture, whatever, I'm so excited about this. I just want to put this range out there and you know, if, if it is too far, or I wouldn't say if it's too far over budget, but what I would say is I want to emphasize that I'm, I'm flexible. And again, my, my priority is, is finding the right fit. So just to rephrase that, we're going back to what I said in the very first answer, which was my priorities, finding the right fit. I'm going to essentially say before sharing a range, my priorities, finding the right fit. And I'm open to, you know, discussing the salary further. So that sort of preempts my answer by saying, look, I'm going to put this number out there, but I really want this role and I'm really excited about it. So hopefully this doesn't impact our decision. We can continue having the discussion that's sort of the mental self talk that I'm having. So then I'm going to share the range that I had in my head and I'm specifically going to use the language. I'm going to say I'm being considered for opportunities in the range of X to. Yeah. So before we share the numbers, I'm specifically saying I'm being considered for opportunities because that sort of implies that I'm potentially interviewing elsewhere or I'm looking at other roles or whatever it is. And you don't necessarily have to be interviewing elsewhere or whatever it is, but if you create the sort of appearance that you're being considered by others for roles in this range, that tends to play pretty well in terms of the psychology behind this conversation. So I'm going to, I'm going to say I'm being considered for roles or opportunities in the range of. And then I'm going to share that 75 to 85% number. And the research shows that the vast majority of the time you or whoever's sitting in your seat is going to lock onto the bottom end of that range. Like that's going to be the target so we just want to keep that in mind. And if I'm making, you know, 100 and I want to get to, you know, let's say 125, I'm probably going to say I'm being considered for roles in the range of, you know, 125 to 135, or that's a total hypothetical. But that way I know that the upper end of my range is still in the conversation because I put it out there. And if you agree to move forward, that's something we agreed on. But I also know that even if you come in at the very bottom of my range, that's still the target number that I was looking for. So to recap, I'm going to say, you know, I'm really excited about this role model and everything I know about it and I've learned about it, and just chatting with you has been fantastic. Before I share the range, I just want to emphasize again that my number one priority is finding the right fit. I want to be at a company that I can stay at and I can make an impact at and I can grow within for a long time. So I'm open to discussion here, but I'm being considered for opportunities in the range of 125 to 135, and then I'll leave it at that. Where does that leave us with the conversation?

Mm. Yeah. And so oftentimes, I want you to listen to what the hiring manager with the recruiter, how they react. They typically will have a reaction, because also, especially, like, recruiters, like, they. Their goal is to get you in that job. Like, just know that they're. They want you to land. They want everyone to be happy. So. So sometimes they'll go, whoa, Austin, okay, well, I don't know. I don't know if they're gonna go for that. You know, and that's. That's your signal, right? Or they might go, okay, yeah, yeah, that's. That's. You know, that seems like what we want or that seems in a range or whatnot. And so, yeah, I think just really listening to that and listening to that reaction, and then that will help you align in your. In your future interviews, either with that company or with other companies to be like, okay, like, that was like a wow number for them. Or that was like a. They reacted very normally to that number. So maybe keep that or maybe go up a little bit, who knows? But there's often an indicator there that they will give you based on your number.

Awesome. Yeah. And so this is the opening conversation. And if you don't mind, I know we sort of plan this piece out, but I think it'd be interesting to talk about what happens later. Like, let's say we go through the process and you, you loved me and I was everything you hoped for in a candidate. And I love this role. And we get to the end and you make me a formal offer that's say, maybe it's a little bit less than.

What I was hoping for. I think maybe we could dive into that a little bit and talk about maybe now introducing some of those additional pieces around the. The other things that we can negotiate. Are you cool with that?

Yeah. Yeah, let's do it.

Okay, awesome. So, and I just did a lot of talking at the end there, so I'd spin it back to you to say, you know, if you're working with somebody, or let's say, you know, you yourself, because you have gone through the process yourself many times and dealt with this when you get that offer that is not quite what you expected, or maybe you feel like there's a little bit more meat on the bone. Because again, we talked about, you know, companies are expecting you to negotiate. So even if the offer seems really good, there still might be some wiggle room there. How do you take that next step? I think what's scary to, like, it's easy for people to sit on this live and say, like, yeah, I'm totally going to do this, yada, yada, yada. And then they get the email and they get the number and then they get terrified. And, you know, the question then becomes, well, what do I even say? Naturally the phone, phone starts ringing, but how? I'll mute myself. But how would, how would I go about asking for more or taking that next step to keep the conversation open and seeing, you know, what that company is really willing to offer.

Yes. For that, I would say again, getting clear about some of the things that you want. So having that list of maybe four things, maybe it's a salary increase, maybe it's those extra days off, maybe it's a title bump or whatever it is and coming to the table with those and also having a reason for some of those things, such as bringing back the data back into it or, you know, for this role, you, it was a nice to have to be. Have advanced level of Excel experiences. And I do have that. And so I think, you know, that's a unique skill set that I bring to this role that warrants this because I realized, you know, the top of Your range is 125. And so I think that warrants the top of your range due to my extensive experience or you asked for five years experience. I have eight. You know, whatever it is right where you are, you're giving reasons to these things. And you know, if they, if they say no to the salary and then you can bring up other things as well and say, well, yeah, I understand. Thank you so much for considering it. You could ask for another salary increase, but maybe smaller than the last one and see if they'll bite for that. But then also adding a few other things as well. Of. Yeah, I was hoping that we could also consider this title and this and this. And then just knowing that this kind of suite of things that you've asked for, just never asking exactly. For the bare, bare minimum, really knowing. Okay, if I got two of these things, I'll be happy.

Yeah, no, I love it. And I would say if the company comes back with something that was below the range that you offered and you gave a range, I think it's totally fair to call that out and say thank you so much for this generous offer. In our first conversation, we agreed on 125 to 135 and this is at 120. And so I just like to understand a little bit more about where that number is coming from, especially given that, that, you know, our initial conversation had a specific range and clearly, you know, we've made it to this stage. So there's, you know, I see a lot of value in being a part of this team and hopefully you see value in bringing me on. Is there any way that we can make up that difference? Because that number is the number that I feel comfortable or that's the range that I feel comfortable with to bring 100% of myself to work every day. And I think that's totally fair to start with. But then typically if you get that next, I'm going to push once and then I'm going to wait to see if I get that pushback. And now is where we introduce things. And so the order for me is I always try to go for money first and that's just my personal preference. But there's a couple of things we can negotiate dollars wise. I always go for bonus structure, I go for equity. And PTO is also another one that people don't really think about. So unlimited PTO can be a bit of a trap in the sense that if a company gives you unlimited pto, they don't actually track your PTO hours. And the problem with that is that Technically means that you have no PTO hours. And in the traditional sense, when you have a PTO policy, candidates are essentially paid on the hours that they accrue for pto. So, for example, when I left Microsoft two months ago or so now, Microsoft paid me. They cut me a check for the unused vacation that I had because I had accrued that. Whereas if they had an unlimited vacation policy, I wouldn't have gotten that. So that's something to keep in mind. But I always try for if the base can't be bumped up, I always say, well, is there an opportunity to change the bonus structure so that you only pay me the additional making up the gap If I perform, you know, above expectations or, you know, can I align myself with equity? And I always try to go for those. And then if I get a no there, then I'll go into sort of that, that tertiary stuff of continuing education or, you know, the office next to the window or the title or anything like that. Would you agree with that? Do you have anything to add? Would you take a different approach?

I think that's spot on. And the. I think what we all have to remember is the recruiter, the hiring manager, they. They want you to be hired like they want. They want this for you. They want to make this work. And so the easier you can make it for them to explain, here's why I'm asking for this, and then also give them other options of, you know, different ways to compensate you if it is a no. Because often that person who you're speaking to is often not the person who's deciding whether or not you get the money. There's typically other checks and balances, and it has to go to the finance part, has to go all the way to the top or get approved by the CEO or whatever is the type of company structure. And so that person needs to actually vouch for you and vouch for that compensation. And so the better you can prepare them to vouch for you, the better you will see the results.

Awesome. Yeah, I love it. And I want to just recap kind of what we talked about there, but I just want to also make sure we have some time for some questions. So if people watching, if you guys have some questions, drop them in now and it'll hit our chat feed after we're done going through this, and then I'll pull some of them up on the screen or bring them up and Madeline and I can cover them for you. But essentially I'm hearing between what I'm saying and you're Saying two things are coming out of this and the first is have an understanding of exactly what you're prioritizing in terms of needs and desires, both in terms of figures but also in terms of the actual items in terms of salary or PTO or whatever it is. And then I try to break them out into three buckets. So it's start with the salary, then move into bucket two, which again is that pto, equity, whatever, bonus, structure, compensation, and then there's that tertiary group. But then your addition, which is fantastic, is have a valid reason for each of those things, each of those asks, and it could be data that you have collected. What works best is when you show the value and the ROI for them. And if you can make that case. Something that I did in my first job actually was I went and asked for a raise and I created a one sheet that basically said here's everything I've done over the last year and why it's, you know, been above expectations and here's how I plan to do even more once I get this raise and why it makes sense for you. And I use data and numbers and metrics and that played really, really well because when you show them the specific ROI and you make it real for them around, here's exactly what I'm going to do to get this value to you. That tends to play really, really well. So hopefully this has been helpful for folks. But we do have a couple of questions here. So here's a good one because I know Madeline, you've been mentioning throughout Covid that temporary contract roles can be a great stopgap. How would the things that we've talked about, the advice that we shared, how would that change? And I'll just pull Elizabeth's question up here. How would these suggestions shift or change for a temporary or a contract role in your mind?

Yeah, I think it is similar in that people asked for what. Yeah. What is, what is your rate though? Sometimes it depends on the type of role. With a lot of like contract or project work, sometimes the, the job listing will simply have the per hour or whatnot that they are offering. You can still negotiate, you can still talk to them and really understand what you know, what are they looking for and how maybe you have more advanced skills and what they're looking for and why that would be relevant to, to have that different amount. But I would say it's just, it's, it's very similar. Right. I think it's, it's still show that enthusiasm, still show that interest. Make sure you're showing your skills, your portfolio, your references, whatever it is, to really get them to understand your value before really pushing them on. Okay, let's, let's increase this. But you still want to do that in the negotiation phase before they hire you, because that's when you have the highest bargaining power.

Yeah. And I love that. And I think.

Basically the forward thinking mindset is the way to go here, because you want to. There's two fronts here. You can go for the full time role, or you can also try to maximize things for the next role that you have. And so what I would do is twofold. I would try to get clear on the odds. But then the path to the full time role at this company, if that's something you want to go for, if that's not necessarily the case, something that I would try to push for is working on specific projects or working on specific teams or with specific people that will enable you to get to where you want to go when this contract is over. And that can be really powerful if your salary is what it is and everything else is immovable. Coming back to the table and saying, well, look, in order for this to really make sense for me, here's where I want to go. By the end of this contract, I either want to be a full time employee here, or I want to be in this type of role in this space. And in order to do that, I really want to focus on beefing up my project management skills or my coding skills or whatever it is. And obviously you want to be more specific and then focusing in on those projects, because contract roles, they can be fantastic for basically creating that additional layer of skills that you need to then make the jump into full time or into whatever it is you're transitioning to. So, yeah, that's great. I hope that was helpful, Elizabeth. So I'm looking through some of the other questions here, Madeline. If you see one that pops up.

I see a good one.

Okay, go for it.

Let's see.

It's from Marcos Salinas.

Okay.

It says, what advice do you have? If the employer says they can't meet your goals right now, but can offer you something closer to your goal in a year or some other point in the future, how do you hold them to this promise? That's a good one.

So I would. Yeah, sure. So I would say for this, you know, we are in a time where that answer is valid. Right. Some of these companies who were expecting to have projections for certain roles and income has just dropped dramatically. And so I do feel for these companies I would say to that is get it in writing. Like, all right, we're going to have a review at 12 months. Let's get that in the contract. Great. At 12 months we'll have a salary and title review. And you know, if you're able to get certain metrics down on there, as long as it's the type of company or position where that those metrics aren't such a crazy moving target, but if it's something where those metrics are, are reasonable and you can foresee them into the future, that's a great thing to also say, all right, I'm confident that I will be able to perform. So let's put down goals or let's just put down that there will be a review in 12 months. Review salary and just hold them to it and just have it in writing.

Yeah, I don't have anything to add. That's perfect. It's so important to hold them to it and get the accountability. But even more so once you're in, if you decide to go with it, getting the specific roadmap so that when that six month or that 12 month conversation comes, you can say, hey, you told me to do X, Y and Z. I did those things and more. Therefore I should be eligible for the bump that we talked about rather than if it's just like beat expectations. That's really kind of subjective and that's hard to hold people accountable to. So that's awesome. Here's a great question that I've run into many times with a lot of the people that I coached. But essentially there are times where we have multiple interview processes in hand, right? And maybe we get an offer from one company that says, hey, you have a week to decide, but your interview, maybe the final interview with that other company is the following week. I guess to answer the question, can we accept that? Or would you recommend accepting an offer from a company knowing that you might potentially turn it down for a better offer down the road? This seems to be, there's, there's a couple sides of this, but it seems to be more around the burning bridges and the ethical stuff. So I can share my take, but I'd love to hear yours.

Go for it, Austin. You go for it. Because I'm on the company side, so this one hurts. It hurts me.

So I'm gonna, I'm gonna take my, my stance of typically being an advocate for the job seeker here and I'm going to go ahead and take the bird in hand and if another bird comes along, that's fantastic. So I was actually just coaching somebody who had. They were in the final round of the interview stages at Apple and then also at a different company, and the other company came through first and they gave him an offer and they said, you have by the end of the week to decide. And Apple's final round was until the following week. And so he asked me this exact question. And the Apple role was like his absolute dream job. Like he told me from day one, if he could work at Apple, like his life is complete, but if he accepts the other role, you know, what does he do if he doesn't get any or if he doesn't accept the other role, what does he do if he doesn't get any of them? So my personal take here is if the company that you're the other company that's in contention, if this is like a dream, like a place that you're going to to stay for a long time, a role that you're really excited about and a place that also you're pretty much set, you're in a good spot if you end up working at that place for the rest of your career, at least the very next step that you're going to make. I don't have a problem accepting the offer from the first company and then waiting to hear. And if that offer from the dream company comes through, accepting that one and kind of pulling my name out of the hat for the other role. There are a number of reasons I feel that way. One, at the end of the day, this is a business transaction. And a lot of companies we've seen, and this isn't every company, and there are great companies that don't do this to employees. But at the end of the day, if expenses are in a certain place and people need to be let go, a company isn't going to think about the fact that you chose them over another company and stuck by your word. In many cases, they're probably just going to. You're going to be one of the people who are like, go on top of that. You know, if I'm making the jump to an amazing place, that's going to make me happy, that's going to make me fulfilled, that's going to pay me what I'm worth, like all of these things. I'm not going to sacrifice my personal happiness. I'm not going to sacrifice significant dollars for me and my family. I'm not going to sacrifice great benefits and great work simply because I, you know, I don't want to feel bad or I don't want to Burn a bridge. Like, I need to look out for number one first here. So that's my take. But I understand that there is. There's an opposite side to that. And I don't know if that would be your approach or if you would agree with mine, but I'm very curious to hear what. What you would say.

Yeah, I mean, I completely can see everything you're saying. I would say that there is one step that we can take before we take go to that measure that I really recommend people do, and that is like, you know, me working HR recruiting. We are always want to be aware of your timeline. Right. So if, Austin, if we really want to hire you and you tell me, hey, I'm actually in the last round interviews with another company. It's getting kind of serious. I think they might extend an offer or you tell me, hey, Madeline, I actually received an offer from a company. I have a week to decide. Is there any way we could possibly expedite the process? I completely understand if that's impossible, but I wanted to put that out there. And what is great about that is what. What it helps me do as someone who working in HR and recruiting is. I can then go to my interviewers, go to the hiring manager, and suddenly this hops the top of the priority list. Because remember, hiring managers, anyone who's hiring is one of the most busy people in the organization because you wouldn't hire unless you had too much work. So anyways, so just giving people that update, sometimes you can get that company to then expedite their process as well. Now they're both on the same timeline, and you can make a decision without burning any bridges.

Awesome. And so I'm really glad that you mentioned that, because that is absolutely a step to take that I left out of my answer. So thank you for having my back on that one. What happens if the company comes back and says we can't make that timeline work? Where. What. What is your move then?

Yeah, so I would say, you know, that is also an indication that you. I, I don't, I don't like reading into signs and whatnot like what people are saying. But if, if a company does expedite their process, that means they're really into you. And you know that that means a lot. They don't expedite their process. It could mean that you're middle of the pack or like there's still not the opportunity to get the role or whatnot, so. Or they just have a more stringent process and people are busy and that person's on vacation, and they can't do it until the following week. So I think in that case, yes, you could definitely follow the advice. You said it's just tough, right? I've. I've. You know, it doesn't happen a lot where people accept and then rescind offer. It's just. It's really tough on the company side. You think you're done with the process? You're all excited or you're like, so just. Yeah, just try to communicate as much as possible to prevent that situation.

I love it. That's great advice. Awesome. Well, we're coming up on time here, and this has been awesome. Thank you so much for being the yin to my yang over here with the salary negotiation conversation. Madeline, I appreciate your time. And this is on both of our channels. Everybody can catch the replay or rewatch if they want, but otherwise, everybody watching. Have an amazing holiday season. Happy New Year. We finally get to close the doors on a crazy, crazy year here. But, yeah, Madeline, you know, Merry Christmas. Happy New Year. I'll talk to you soon.

And Wi Fi high five.

Wi fi high five. I love it.