DAY 1 - Find What’s Costing You Job Offers [Reverse the Search LIVE]

Reverse the Search Live, baby. That's right. It's a whole new series. Okay, so 5 days of Reverse the Search Live, really focused on how to get to the next level in your job search in this crazy job market. Go ahead and say hi in the chat. Say where you're joining us from and let's dive into this. So we are doing day 1 today of a 5-day series. So we're going to find what's costing you job offers, because what I have found from a lot of folks who are asking me for job search help is, what's going on? You know, I think it's ageism. That's my issue. Or I think it's my networking outreaches. And a lot of times I realize that's not actually what it is. And so we are going to go through a systematic process today of figuring out exactly what's going on with you. And so you know where to put your energy so that you are landing more interviews, and then landing more offers. So I'm seeing lots of people say hi. I'm seeing Ashara from Kansas City, Andrew from Connecticut. We're seeing Jacob from— oh my gosh, it kind of went fast. Okay, people keep going by. Oh, I think I'm reading it from the top down. Ashley, hello in New York. Pink Rosen, Alabama. Andrew, Connecticut. Document Intelligence in Houston, Texas. Okay, keep it coming. Good to see you all. Thanks so much for joining us. So for this week, we have day 1, find what's costing you job offers. Day 2 is get companies to compete for you. So that is all about understanding what are those job shoppers strategies that are extremely important to make it so these companies are getting that FOMO of, oh, we need that person, because that is absolutely happening in this job market. But only if you are doing it the right way. And because companies are hiring fewer people. And so you want to be that person that they say, okay, if we're not going to hire 10 people, we're only going to hire 3. This is the person we absolutely need. Then we have win in this job market because you all have been sending me a lot of questions of, Madeline, this job market is different. So how do I win in this market? Do I need to change my job? Do I need to completely change my approach? What is different here? Because it feels different. And so we're going to dive into those strategies there as well as day 4 is how to open doors with the right conversations. A lot of my clients have said that my strategies make networking feel a lot easier, a lot more fun. And it's because I go about it a bit differently. And we found that networking is often the fastest way to land a job. So we'll go through those strategies. And then finally, turn interviews into job offers. So many of you write to me saying, I'm getting interviews, but not offers. Let's crack the code there so that you are making sure to break through and land more offers. And so here's our agenda. We're doing some announcements first, then we're going into the 6 levels of the job search to make sure you know exactly what you need to elevate. Then we're going to diagnose your area of improvement. I'm going to give you lots of different examples to hopefully inspire you to understand what you need to change. We're going to go into case study that has a lot of relevant elements to what we're talking about. We've been bringing in previous clients into some of my client calls, and that's kind of where I got this case study idea is that they love hearing from people who actually implemented this stuff and how they implemented it and what worked, because they say, "Oh, Madeline, we love listening to you, but we want to hear how people are actually doing this." And then we're going to then dive into an interactive Q&A. So answering your questions live. All right. And so you may see someone who might be a familiar face to you. She has been with the team for quite a long time in the chat. Her name is Courtney Copeland. Courtney, what should we expect from you today in the chat? Hi everyone. My name is Courtney. I've worked with Madeline for 5 years now, and I'm the same Courtney you might have recognized on page 46 in Reverse the Search if you read the book. And the same Courtney who's been interviewing Madeline in those clips you might have seen in TikTok or Instagram or LinkedIn. So it's so nice to see all of you. And I'll be in the chat with you this entire week. So I'll be collecting your questions for the Q&A each day and then making sure you have all the tools you need to be successful. Cool. Thanks so much, Courtney. All right. We'll see you in the chat. All right, so let's dive the heck in. All right. So many good, so many good folks in the chat. Thanks so much for all the great participation. And so what a lot of these things I've been hearing from you, you're saying things like, I am doing everything right. What am I missing? Put yes in the chat if any of these statements feel true to you. Okay, I'm doing everything right. What am I missing? Okay, I'm, I'm doing every step of the job search. This has always worked in the past. What is going on? It has never been this hard. What is happening? Is the job market just completely messed up? Am I, have I aged out of being successful? What is going on? Okay, why is this feeling so much harder? I'm willing to do what it takes to win, but I'm not getting any feedback. I hear this from a lot of you because frankly, if you are watching my content, you are someone who is like, yeah, I'll put in the work. Shoot, just tell me what to do. And it's really frustrating when you don't know exactly where you're going wrong in this situation. And maybe even in your past, positions have come to you, right? You kind of just maybe been handed positions in a way, right? You've been referred into them. People trusted that you're qualified. And yet that's not happening right now. Or— and the no response hurts. Hurts more than the no, which is so frustrating. You're thinking, okay, you can just tell me no and we can move on, but don't leave me ghosted. Don't leave me in this purgatory that so many of us are experiencing right now. So we're going to dive into this and we're going to really figure out what's happening in your job search. So I want you to close your other tabs, mute your phone, lock in, because this is going to be a wasted hour if you are not focused. Mind clear, all ears, offers near. Okay, mind clear, all ears, offers near. Let's do this. So it's time to uncover exactly what you need to land your job offers. Go ahead and put ready in the chat to show you're ready to rock through this. Let's figure out exactly what's going on for each and every one of you. So that brings us to level 1, which is focus. Okay. And the idea is, do you have one role in industry that you are targeting? Okay. So I'm seeing a lot of responses in the chat. Love the empowerment. Ready. Okay. Love to see it. Tons of readies in the chat. Mikey. Lillian, Gabs, Lisa. Yes, I've seen so many people. Jeffrey. Yes. Noelle. Amazing. Okay. So many. So many. Okay, good. So we first need to zero in on having one role in industry that we are targeting. Now, if you do have one role in industry, go ahead and lock it in. Put it in the chat. For some of us, we know what we want. And that is great for others of us. We aren't quite sure. We're actually targeting multiple jobs. We have a bunch of different types of resumes. We are applying to a bunch of different jobs thinking that will increase our odds of winning. And what this is actually doing is actually really preventing us from landing more interviews and more offers. And you'll see— I'll bring up in the case study, I believe Paul mentions it in his case study that That is a huge thing that he shifted. Now, depending on who you are, you can have— it depends. I coach my clients each differently, but depending on the client, I'll say, okay, well, maybe you can have a certain variety of role titles, or you can have a few more industries, but it really depends on your profession. And so really, when you're walking through this, it's super important that you are getting clear on that next step because that's actually one of the hardest things. When we're thinking about, okay, well, how do I get really clear on my next step? Let me show you. I'll actually show you what Paul did to get really clear. Here is the page. This is our proprietary tool, all of our job shopping tools. Just to show you the process. That it takes to get career clarity. Because what a lot of people think with career clarity is that you just have an epiphany or you just have to take jobs until one is good. But there's actually an entire systematic process that you can undergo to figure out what's next. Right. So in this process here, it's so important that you start off with figuring out like who you are, right? What are your skills? What are— what do you want in your next job? All that kind of stuff. And you might have some job titles that you already want. We also kind of like add personalized suggestions based on everything about you, and then you kind of have those selected opportunities that you think. And so then what he did next was, okay, let me evaluate each role. So I'll give you an example here. So it's like, okay, senior product manager. So really understanding what does this role entail? Does it meet my compensation requirements? And then like rating it as a potential fit or not. And what the issue that I really want to share with you is that like, do not stop at this research stage. So many of us say we research it and then we just go and take the job, and that is not enough for us to fully realize, okay, is that the right position for us? So then what he also did was, was doing some informational interviews to talk to people in these different professions. Right. So, and we have like ability to like generate an introductory email to these folks and then really understand, is the job right for me? Is it not? And have that scorecard there of understanding, okay, the different positions and all of that. So I just want to give you, give you guys an inspired of there is a path for you to figure out exactly what you want next and you can make this happen for yourself. And so just make sure that you are you know, not hiding behind this idea of, oh, I'm just going to apply to a ton of different places. Because once you get more focused and specific, I trust me, you will get so many more opportunities. So, um, level 2 is targeting. So are you able to find 12 quality opportunities a month that match your criteria? I'm curious to hear if that number feels high to you, like, wow, I really struggle to find 12 a month that actually fit what I'm looking for. Or if that number feels low, of like, yeah, I'm actually applying to like 20 places a week. So, you know, that's, that's already 80 a month right there, right? So 12 a month is approximately 3 a week, which is kind of like a minimum amount that you want to make sure that you you are able to find for your target opportunities. Now, you can— it depends on the client. If you are unable to find 12 a month, a couple things could happen. First of all, you might just need to switch your targeting, right? You might need to go broader. And so that's one thing. Now, in other cases, like especially because I know we have a lot of senior level people here, a lot of really big heavy hitting roles. Sometimes it just means that we need to shift into sourcing or, and/or networking. And so having some, some of those skills under our belt, as well as making sure you have target companies, because too many of us fully rely on these big job boards to tell us when these opportunities are there. And really what you need to also do is to make sure that you also have target companies so that we can make sure, okay, we're proactively looking at their websites, we're proactively talking to people as companies so we can possibly hear about those roles before they get posted. So I'm seeing lots of different ideas. Pamela says, sounds high, maybe that's too many a month. That's totally fair. I'm seeing Shima says, I think 3 a week is something I see. Okay, cool. So that sounds about right. Jeff says very high. So understood, Jeff. Like, I do think that there's workarounds, though I will say I've had a lot of clients where I'm like, hey, let's actually reevaluate what you're targeting. Ashley says no, I can't find 12 per month. Linnez actually says that seems low. Chan says it feels high to me. Okay, so this is really interesting. I was actually not expecting y'all to say how many to say that it feels high, but that's really interesting to hear. And it's, it's a, it's important to kind of balance out that. So one way, since we're saying it sounds high, one thing to know is you could, to increase that number, right? Like, you know, you want to make sure that you have this target role. So let me show you what that looks like. So, okay, so this, this is a tool that makes sure that you are actually qualified for the roles you're going for and sees if you have any skill gaps. So, okay, 83%, highly qualified. That's perfect. And then you go to preferences. And so you fill out your preferences. Okay, here's, you know, the industries I want, the size of company, the cities, all that. And then it pumps out some target companies. So it's really important that you develop your own target company list, as you can see here. And this tool in particular, like, suggests different companies. You kind of read about them and go to their websites and all that. To see which ones you want to add to your target list. But essentially, like, that's one of the processes you definitely want to go through, especially if you're struggling to get some of those target companies. But yeah, about 12 a month. But like I said, I would— it's so tough to coach hundreds of people at once in this big group because depending on your situation, if you'd explain it to me, I'd be like, oh yeah, like, like, let's just get you like 4 really good opportunities a month and let's get you interviews at 3 out of 4 of them, right? It could— that could be your situation. But I would say, like, if you are not being able to find 12, like, just have that be a flag of, mm, maybe my targeting's off. Okay, so next comes applications. So I have a question to ask you. Put a yes or no in the chat. Is the job search a numbers game? What do you think? Yes, Or no? Yes or no? Let me know. Because when I think about this question, I've mentioned him before, my client Nestor, who he works in research, was very accomplished researcher, even was a published author, all this stuff, but really struggled to land interviews and was, you know, could couldn't really get into organizational development, which he wanted to be as his next career path. So, all right. Wow. I'm seeing a lot of messages in the chat. I'm seeing a lot of nos, a few yeses. No, actually a lot of yeses too. So I'm seeing yeses. That figures. Izzy says yes. Chance Weavers said yes, it's a numbers game. Shima says no, not for me. Andrea says yes. Puppet Production says no, quality counts more than quality. Okay, so there's quite the debate here. And I do want to say, I think that there's value in both positions. And I'll tell you why. I think so. I think both can be correct, but in a specific way. So for Nestor, he had applied to 500 places and not really gotten many interviews at all. And Absolutely zero offers. That to me is clear that the high volume application game is not a numbers game. If it was, he would have gotten many interviews and offers at that point, right? So in that way, it's not an offers— I mean, it's not a numbers game. And then when he shifted to more of a job shopping strategy, he ended up the next— he just applied to 3 more places. 2 of those he got interviews and ended up accepting an offer at one of them. That really goes to show that when he just kind of settled down, got focused, things started converting. And we're seeing that for a lot of my clients. It's, it's almost never like that they're pumping out dozens or even hundreds of roles. And you'll see even in the case study today, um, Paul also will talk about that as well of the numbers game. And a lot of my clients will typically see about a 70% success rate for their online applications, especially if they're not career changing. If they're career changing, it's like it drops a little bit below 50%. But that is— that's really something you want to think about. So are you landing over 20% of interviews from companies you apply to? If it's lower than that, I would start reevaluating. Okay, there's something going on here. But I do want to say that it is a numbers game in a way of— I think about my client where he was like, okay, Madeline, he just joined my coaching program. He's like, Madeline, I just applied to places. I didn't get a callback for either. I think my resume is broken. And I looked at his resume and I was like, you know, here's a couple of things you can fix, but I'm going to be real with you. Your resume is pretty darn good. You know, the changes you had built with, with our tool, like, it's actually looking pretty immaculate. Apply to a few more places. So he applied to more. And oh, okay, he ended up getting at least 11 interviews over the next 2 weeks. This was like, just this past month, about 11 interviews. I remember because I remember I reviewed the recordings for every single one of them. And That was like the idea of, okay, you know, let's not start counting your percentages from like the very first couple. You know, if you're trying to get 20%, okay, submit 10 applications before running the numbers versus submitting 4 and being like, well, you know, I'm not getting any hits. Okay, give it a second. Give it a second. So that's really important to remember. So When we're thinking about referrals, that number should be higher, about 50% of interviews from referrals. There's a really important anecdote here that hopefully, if this maybe sounds like you, you can change this today. I had a client, Natasha. She was— she wanted to work at Apple. Okay. That was her number one company. And she came to me as a client already having networked and gotten referrals from 6 people at Apple. I was really impressed. I was like, oh my God, I'm so excited for you to be my client. You're so proactive. And she said, but none of them have led to interviews. Madeline, can you review all of my communications with these companies? And so I was like, okay, yeah, maybe. Because she's like, maybe I said something wrong to them. Okay, so here's, here's another way that a lot of us are not so good at diagnosing what goes wrong. So I read all the communications. I gave her a few different tips. I was like, hey, here's how this could be slightly improved. But frankly, you sound pretty good. And I said, could I maybe take a look at your resume, perchance? I look at the resume and my heart sunk. This had been ruining her chances for all of these opportunities. So basically, so let me know if this sounds like you. What happened is she had her most recent role was in like healthcare marketing for like B2B. And Apple is a B2C technology company. So immediately they're like, ew, this is not the kind of marketing we do. But heck, she already had B2C technology experience. It was buried in her resume. She wasn't showing it properly. She wasn't leading with the right things. And so that was really what I helped her with is, okay, let's completely change the way you're presenting yourself. And that was the game changer. And then she, the referral, I was really scared because I felt like maybe she'd burned through all of her contacts at this point. She finally came back because, you know, she built a good relationship. They reevaluated her and she was able to ultimately get in. Um, but yeah, that was, that was a close one for a minute there. Um, so essentially what she did in that case, if we're talking about the resume, if you're like, how does, how did her resume like completely change? So of course, like her skills didn't change. But, um, if we kind of look at like her resume, essentially she did the Glory Formula, um, which is my proprietary resume formula, and it's really high performing. And so one of the reasons why it performs so well and why so many people will go to a resume writer and then be unsatisfied and then come to this is usually two things, is that resume writers tend to start with your accomplishments first and then build, a resume back from that. And then the second thing is, is they tend to be very like verbose and kind of have fluffy language. So the Glory Formula and all these tools like have stripped away that, for Natasha. And so really starting with the target role first and building the resume back from that, And then like, you know, gathering the things like listing the tasks, observing your story, all these types of things. And then it refines the bullet for you. So like actually writing the bullet in a way that you don't have to worry about, I don't know, like ATS resume scanners, like, you know, because it'll have all the right keywords in it. That's really what they're looking for is keywords if they're doing any sort of resume sorting. So that's really what she did is like, okay, let's shift into really focusing on the company and putting the right experience up top. Okay, so how are we doing on this? I see a lot of like chitter chatter. I haven't really had a chance to read it. Landing, you know, 20% of interviews to companies you apply to. I know a lot of you watch my channel because you get a lot of interviews. So it seems like yes, like Freda Harper is getting a lot of interviews. Okay, cool. Good. Amazing. All right. So the next piece here is if you're under the benchmark, there's 1 of 3 things that you should do. Okay. So this is really if you're any of, any of you guys who are kind of like, I'm not sure that, you know, that you're struggling to kind of land more interviews. Look at these 3 things. First is timing. So this one is, is tough to do, right? We typically want to apply very quickly or like know that a job is being posted before it is. But timing is such a tricky beast. And I understand if you are struggling with that. The second one is not being seen. So this is the idea that you are, you know, you, you apply, but maybe they're starting from the top of the stack and working back and your application number 200. Maybe they're starting from the most recent, working back. Maybe they have stack ranked the applications a certain way. Maybe they're just looking for certain things and they're kind of just scrolling. A lot of this to say, we do not know if they have seen your application. And so you should make moves to make sure it's seen. Getting some sort of confirmation, really kind of just making sure that it's being seen is a really important key attribute. Um, And then the third thing is maybe it's a bad application. And that's really why I gave you the Natasha example is that was the case, right? Her timing was fabulous. Her application was 100% being seen. But sometimes we need to improve the application and, you know, and just kind of accept that that's really where our gap is. All right. So that brings us to level number 4. Are you passing 50% of your first round interviews? Let's see. Yes or no. Are you— do you typically pass at least half of your first round interviews? I'm curious to know. So basically, it's super normal to not pass all phone interviews. They are very predictable. You should be passing a good amount of them. But You know, there's plenty of them where it's just not a right fit. You get on the call and you realize, yeah, I don't even want this job. It kind of sucks that they don't want me either. But we have to be real. We don't actually want these jobs. And so that's super normal. So, okay, so a lot of— oh, I'm seeing a lot. I'm seeing kind of like a split here. Let's see. Let me go get you guys on the screen here as far as yeses and nos of— okay, it's very mixed. As far as who, who is passing their first round interviews. Oh, she must pass 80% of her first round interviews. Nice. Not recently, says Courtney. Okay, cool. Got it. So yeah, we're not always getting phone interviews, says Jennifer. Okay, got it. So it's, it's, it's, it sometimes shifts maybe from season to season. Okay, got it. So first round interviews usually evaluate 3 things. So especially if you, if you are not passing as many as you'd like, I want you to hone in on this part of this session. Okay. So first is the logistics. All right. This is, can you commute to our location? Can you be here 3 days a week in person? Um, do you, can you travel 25% of the time? All these kinds of things, right? Logistics. Can you start 1 week from today? If you say no to those things, it's likely that you are not going to pass the phone screen. And that is just a big chunk of their questions. The second thing is skill set. So they're going to ask you questions like, tell me about a time you did this, which is like a core skill. Give me your best accomplishment about that. Again, about a core skill.

Do you—

have you used X tool, Y tool? Have you been in Z situation? Just check, check, check. Just trying to see some of the big pillars of the role. Have you done these things? So that's really crucial that we're articulating that. And then the third thing, and this is especially, especially if you were going for senior level, I'm talking director, VP, C-level roles, this is going to get you on the phone screens, okay, is the communication and the likability. So I'll give you an example of my client Diane. She's come on one of these live sessions before and shared her story. She had interviewed with over 30 companies before she became my client. Right, y'all? Have any of you guys in this job search interviewed with more than 30 companies? It's wild, right? And she didn't have any offers to show for it. And really what happened there is I was like, Diane, trust me, after I listened to like even a couple of your interviews that you're doing, I will be able to diagnose what's happening. So I'd listen, right? And what ended up happening was, it was number 3. It was the communication and the likability. Not that she wasn't likable, but her— and this is the number 1 thing that for leadership is really important, is being concise. That is huge. Being concise, having structured thinking, and speaking in frameworks. And she was doing none of that, even though she's brilliant. She's wonderful. She's super skilled. So number 1 was perfect. Number 2 skill set was almost perfect. She still was communicating her skills not as great as she should have been. But then number 3, she was really missing the boat there. And so that's why she wasn't making through as many first-round interviews as possible. Of course, she learned the skills, she made it happen, um, and was able to then land so many, so many more interviews. She ended up getting 4 offers, considering 2 seriously. But like a bit on how she prepared. So what she did was when I talk about preparing for an interview. So when you're preparing for an interview, let's do one like this one has a first round interview here. So you actually, most people overprepare. For job interviews. They, they focus on too much. And so she kind of just focused on only the most important things, which that's kind of what we, we dial down. That's what, that's what, that's what you see in this tool here is like only the most important prep. And one of the unique things that I have my clients do is that for the first round questions for on this platform, you know, you can, you can put together your more common interview questions elsewhere of like, where do you see yourself in 5 years or whatever, like all that kind of stuff. But here, I really think that your answers to your first round interview questions should not be canned. They shouldn't be the same for every company. Such as, why do you want to work here? You know, this answer really needs to be tailored to that company. And even here, it's like the tool actually will make sure that it's like tailoring to this marketing director role, specifically this interview. And even your tell me about yourself. I have a lot of clients where, they'll kind of change up their tell me about yourself to specifically double-click on the certain experiences. So that those are really important strategies that you should implement into your interview prep strategy. All right, y'all. Level 5 is the second interview. So are you passing 40% plus of your second round interviews? This might be a little high. Maybe I'm asking for too much here. But, you know, once you kind of made it this far, it would be great to be passing a good chunk of these. Now, this is where it gets really complex. And I was thinking a long time about how to tell you, you hundreds and hundreds of people here, how to self-diagnose why you didn't pass the second round interview, which is super hard. But what I thought I would do is give you real-world examples. And then you might say, oh my gosh, like, I can see myself in that. Maybe that happened to me too. Um, okay, so I'm seeing a bunch of yeses and nos. Um, okay, Kristen said this is where I fall apart. Um, okay, so Ellie says no. Jeffrey says nope. Um, yeah, so there's a lot of— but I'm also seeing people saying yes, that they, that they are making it, um, past the second round interviews over 40% of the time, which is, uh, great too. But also, I mean, this is, this is a big— this is— and, you know, as, as it was said, this is where I fall apart, says Kristen. I think this is where most people fall apart is getting into the later stages interviews. So you are in very good company. So this is where it gets complex. So I'll give you a couple of examples. So, so I had one of my clients, this is probably a week and a half ago. He got a rejection from a company. He said, I don't know why I'm being rejected. And I said, well, do you have the recording of the interview? And he said, yeah. All right. Like, let me listen to it. Oh, okay, great. So I listened to it. The first thing is he kind of kept like interrupting the interviewer and taking control of the conversation, which in itself I don't think would lose the second round interview. But I was kind of like, noted, just a thing for him to improve. Second was the interviewer said, huh, seems like your experience is very much more on the research side. And not so much on the client management, project management side. And he didn't really have like a super good comeback for that or anything like that. And then the last one was the interviewer asked, do you have pharma experience? And he said no. And that's not true. He does have pharma experience. Not a ton of pharma experience, but he kind of just like, no, I don't. But I want to learn or something like that. That was like really not confidence-inducing. So anyways, I was like, that's it. You know, it's the research thing. It's the pharma thing. That's why you got rejected. And he goes, literally, I did not pick up on that at all on the call, that that was her hesitations about me. And so I just want you to know that if you are struggling to pick up on these hesitations, that is completely normal. I mean, I've literally interviewed thousands of people, thousands of people and listened to thousands of recordings like this is, this is This is my entire life. But like, those are the types of things you want to be looking out for. Another example is another one of my clients. Yeah, within the last 2 weeks, she was interviewing with a company and they're like, you don't have finance industry experience. What do you think is going to be the biggest difference about working in the finance industry? Are you nervous about working in the finance industry? And then they're like, you've worked at large companies. We're a smaller company. Can you work in a fast-paced environment? Can you work with ambiguity? All of that is code for you don't have industry experience. We're nervous. You come from a large company culture. We're nervous. And the thing is, is that you can overcome this. They already know this. They already saw your, your resume. They know this about you, but they're waiting for you to quell their hesitations. And I was like, man, like they asked her in the interview, they set the stage and said, Hey, why do you want this job? And at that point, in that case, I was like, hey, look, next time you need to throw whatever preconceived answer you have out the window and you need to address those concerns so that when they're like, hey, what interested you in this job? Why do you want it? You have to say, I've always— I really want to work on a small team. I've been wanting to move out of this large company way, right? I want to have my hands in everything. I want to be in a fast-paced environment. That's what they were dying to hear. And if you don't say it hyper explicitly, they will get too nervous. Okay, so these are the types of things I'm listening for on a second round interview call. Let me know, um, uh, if this is resonating with you. Put it— put resonate in the chat if it's resonating with you. Um, because like I said, it's so unique to each situation, and I can only do my best here. Um, So, and then that brings us to level 6, the offer. Okay, so do you earn 30% of the offers at the final round? Okay, we can't win them all. You're competing against people who are really good. So just because they didn't choose you doesn't mean that you aren't amazing. Um, but still, we want to make sure that we're sliding into the, you know, the final round and making sure we're closing at least a third of the offers so that we can line up several at a time. Okay. So, amazing. Well, this has been super great. I do want to share with you the case study that we have here today. So I want you to go ahead and put in the chat what has been your biggest key takeaway, right? Is it from level 1 on focus or is it from targeting? Or is it applications or your interview screen, your second round interview, the offer? What is your key takeaway? What are you thinking that you need to work on? Put that in the chat. I'm so interested to hear because each and every one of you, it's going to be a different spot. Certain things I said today is totally irrelevant to you. Others, it's probably life-changing. So what is it for you? So I was really fortunate. Paul works, you know, he's obviously very busy. He works a lot. So I got to pre-record this session. We're going to listen to Paul's specific story, how he used these strategies, and then we're going to dive into a live Q&A. So be ready for that. I'll be answering your questions that you're putting in the chat live. Paul, thank you so much for joining me.

Yeah, for sure.

Well, so we would love to hear the nitty-gritty of everything you experienced in your job search, because you have a really interesting story of going from the military to landing, you know, a different, like a total career pivot. So bring us back to where were you in that transition before you joined the program and all of that? What were some of the things you were experiencing in the job market?

Yeah. So my, my story really began back in 2019, 2020, right around the COVID pandemic era. I was transitioning out of the Air Force after about 12 and a half years on active duty, coming from a space operations background, but living in Las Vegas. You know, there's no NASA, there's no SpaceX, there's no Blue Origin here. So I was really stuck wondering, like, who am I and what am I supposed to be once I take the uniform off? I actually put in my resignation package a week before the COVID lockdown. Happened in Vegas, so the timing couldn't have been better. And, you know, it really kicked off the, like, oh my gosh, like, this is real. This is not a great time to be making this transition. Am I making a mistake? And I, I really struggled to find anything that, that translated what I did in the military as a space officer into anything that made sense to a civilian hiring manager that wasn't NASA or SpaceX. I was very fortunate to have some industry connections and was able to kind of get my first job on the outside as a contractor, but kind of really felt that wasn't what I wanted to do long term. So then I did the classic veteran thing and I said, hey, I'm going to go be a project manager. So I got project management certifications. I ended up working for Allegiant Airlines here in Vegas. The hiring manager was an Army veteran and was able to kind of read my value in my resume, even though I did not do a very good job of really translating what I had done and why it mattered and what I could bring to that environment. It was more luck of the draw that, that she was an Army vet. Did that for about a year and a half and said, you know, like, I really, I really love the airline environment, aviation environment. Environment, but I don't think project management is my thing. It wasn't, it wasn't my passion. It wasn't what I loved to do, but I did love being around aviation and airlines and aerospace. It was around that time that I joined SJSU, and the, like, the one of the first things I think I was sitting there looking at MBA programs and master's degrees and more certifications and you had posted something on LinkedIn that was like, stop, don't get another degree. And I'm like, oh my gosh, she's talking to me. Uh, so that was like kind of, that was kind of my, my push to, okay, this is what I need to do. Um, going through the program, um, it helped me realize that I can really be anything I want to be. Uh, and the more important thing was finding a job that like, that brought me happiness and brought me comfort and something that I was really passionate about doing, not just the industry, but also like the role itself. And I ended up kind of writing.

So here, let's, let's— I want to kind of back up a little bit to kind of like double-click into some of these things. So first of all, you know, you landed several, several roles after resigning from the military. And then I— it's such an interesting comment of how you were fortunate that the person who was reviewing your application was also a veteran. And that is something that I think is, it's, it's like sometimes we get really lucky with who's reading our resume. Like, I remember reviewing someone's resume for like a completely different job, but she had worked in events previously and I was like, okay, if someone's worked in events, they are really hardworking and they can work on really tight deadlines, all this kind of stuff. Like, I knew that about them, but a lot of us don't actually understand the context of what someone has done. And so I'm interested to hear how you kind of overcame that when you went through the program and all that. But then, yeah, kind of getting into the program then and then, okay, realizing that the path you've been on, while each step had tons of value, okay, what do you want to do next? So, okay, so let's hover here for a minute. So tell me a little bit more about you know, what were some of those, those big moves you made in the job search that transitioned from you kind of like floating around, like hoping to meet another veteran who would understand you to actually being someone who is targeting the right positions, converting to get to interviews and interviews to offers?

Yeah. So the first was really recognizing that my value was not as a, a space person, space operations officer, military officer. It was the, it was the skills and experiences that I brought through all of my assignments on active duty and then the experience I had in the civilian industry. So the, like, the, the glory method of really going through and finding keywords, finding the skills completely independent of the job title, like, you know, project manager might mean something different, engineer might mean something different, learning and development can be many different things in different companies. So ignore the job title. Focus on the skills and the keywords that are needed for the role that you are applying for at that time. So I ended up creating a couple of different resumes. I targeted organizational effectiveness, learning and development, cybersecurity, project management as a, as a method to just kind of get my foot in the door. I think the one that I sent you was this like Franken-resume of, of technical project management and cyber, and there was some L&D stuff in there. And kind of the light bulb moment for me with you was like, hey, I like— this is a good resume, but it's too much. Like, you're trying to sell yourself to like everyone, be everything to everybody. Pick one. And I said like, well, I don't know. Like, I don't know what I want to do. So what I ended up doing was looking back and saying, okay, well, I obviously landed in project management, like my skills spoke to somebody. I've got this on my resume now. Let me write my resume as a, as a PM resume, get my foot in the door somewhere, and then I can move, I can move laterally. And that resume ended up landing. The organization effectiveness resume got some hits. The L&D resume got some hits. Um, and it was, it was definitely after I, I took the, like the titles and the box that I had kind of artificially put myself in, um, a way that I was able to open up the aperture and just say like, look, I like, I can do the work. Uh, I just need to put it in a way that the reader understands, just like, just like my hiring manager at the airline did without relying on them being a better Yes, I love that.

And that's— I love that you bring up the Glory Formula in the program because that's, that's huge. And that's like— and really, you know, for anyone who hasn't used the Glory Formula, the, the premise is that you don't start with your experience, you don't start with your best accomplishments in your previous roles. You start with the end in mind, the where are we going, what is this company asking for, and building things backwards from that. And I also love that you, you know, kind of took that feedback of like, okay, let me be a lot more focused and let me speak to what they're asking for. And, and I think sometimes when we are looking at our own experience, we're too close to it. You know, we see ourselves all being like a mosaic professional where you have so many different facets. There's so many wonderful things about you where it can sometimes feel— I don't know if you felt this way in the program, but it's almost like I'm telling you to strip away so many of your beautiful colors. But doing so, you know, you're getting more interviews, but it hurts, right? You're like, wait, but those are some of the best things about me.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think initial cuts of my resume, I had like my decorations on there. I had awards that I had won like 10 years prior. Like, it's great that you were Instructor of the Year, but what does that mean to a project manager? And what I was able to do is say, like, okay, I don't necessarily, like, have to take that out. Like, the— what I did to earn that is what matters, not the award itself. So let me figure out why I won that or how I won that award. You know, like, take that out of the context of This is just a random award at the bottom of my resume, but now let me pull that, that skill and experience and expertise up to a bullet and show like, I am a teacher and every interaction is an opportunity to teach and instruct. And here's how I do that in the context of project management or organizational effectiveness or, or whatever the, the job target might be.

Mm-hmm. So then once you did this, what changes do you see as far as like the interviews you were landing, the— and how you were doing in the interviews.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, I mean, the first thing that immediately jumped out was only like defense-specific jobs, like defense industry contractors and then things in Vegas. Like I had mentioned before, there's no, there's no space infrastructure here. It's casinos and hospitality. So the first thing was like the resume started landing at like MGM, Caesars, like the big players in the casino industry here. I got a couple of interviews at some like tech and SaaS companies for remote roles. So the first win was just like, okay, now, now my experience is resonating outside of just like the military and defense industry. But the other thing that did was gave me the confidence, like, okay, I'm not a fraud. Like this experience is real. Like, my expertise is valuable to somebody outside of, of like my comfort zone. And I'm not pretending to be somebody that I'm not. Like, this, this is me. And I can credibly claim what is on my resume and what I'm bringing to the interview for that role.

Mm-hmm. I love that. Yeah. And it, it's— and I love that you brought up earlier, oh, you were thinking about getting MBA and all that kind of stuff because that's sometimes tries to— we try to compensate with feeling like a fraud by saying, well, look at— look at, I have more letters to put after my name. And it— but that is so expensive. It takes up so much time, so much money. And yet you were able to make this transition, you know, so much more quickly doing this way of repositioning yourself. And, you know, I don't always say that there's no reskilling, you already have all the skills you want. And we do have a tool in the program that like allows folks to understand their skill gaps and how they need to reskill and all that kind of stuff. But if there's a bit of reskilling, I've seen for a lot of people it can be, you know, a modest amount of reskilling, not necessarily a 2-year degree, a 3-year degree or something like that. So I love how you took control of that and really understood, okay, actually I've done this before. And if you put me in this situation, there's going to be a bit of a learning curve, as is in any new role. You have to learn the organization. But that I could execute it well. I love that. Okay. And then what were your results?

Oh, man. So I ended up getting, like I mentioned, interviews for organizational effectiveness jobs at MGM and Caesars. I got an offer for a technical project management job at— it was basically like hardware technical project management for like computer vision and AI stuff. I had gotten a couple obviously interviews at defense contractors I was targeting, some phone screens for United Airlines and a couple other like major players. I would say my, my success rate was like what I, what I thought was a good metric before was maybe like 1% of applications if I got I was getting a callback or an email back from 1 in 100. I was doing great. Then I was like, no, like I'm aiming way too low. Like I need to be up at 10, 15, 20, or I'm targeting the wrong roles. Like they're legitimately the wrong level. They are the wrong, like the wrong role entirely. Or it's a technical gap that I just like I can't overcome, right? So like, yeah, modest upskilling, 10-hour course, and I can claim proficiency in a tool, got it, I can, I can do that. But if it's like, hey, you need 4 to 5 years of software engineering experience, I don't have that. I'm not going to close that gap. So there was, there was a significant difference in like the callback rate for my applications. And then also, like, I think I had 3 or 4 job offers all come in right around the same time. And it was, it was great to be able to look at them and say, Okay, like which one, which one is really the one that is pulling me as opposed to, okay, well, this is the one that I have right now, so I'm going to take it and see what happens.

How has that been kind of since landing that role and all that?

Yeah, so to me, the biggest thing as an introvert has been that confidence to advocate for myself within the role and then not be afraid of networking. Like I used to see networking as a very transactional thing, like Hi, I'm so-and-so. I want a job. What can you do for me? And always never really felt like I had anything to offer in return when really it's like, no, I'm not, I'm not building a relationship for a job. I'm building a relationship because I'm genuinely curious in you, what you do, your experiences, and like how we can, how we can just grow together, how we can have a mutually beneficial relationship. So within, within my current company, I've gotten to 2 internal promotions through a lot of that self-advocacy, like, hey, I'm already doing the job at this level, can we make it formal? So I've been able to secure that twice, and then I just got an internal transfer, kind of a lateral, but it's more moving from that project management role that I took initially over to a technical systems engineering role, and that was just cultivating relationships over time. And when that role— yeah, when that role popped up, I said, hey, like, is this something that you think would make sense? Or like, here's this other role that I think might be a fit too. Which one should I apply for? And the director said, I think this one. Let's get your application in. Let's get you on an interview.

I love that. And that's really the job shopper way, right, is to not just it's not just about landing the job. It's about consistently knowing how to present yourself in a way that is very helpful to the people around you of like, okay, I understand Paul's value. I understand what he brings to the table, and we would benefit from promoting him. We— and so, like, but often people don't notice those things because they're in their own world. And so you need to bring that job shopper approach to show it. And I just want to say, Paul, it has been a pleasure because we have, as part of the program, we have our mentors that come back and, you know, network with our clients and give advice and all that kind of stuff. And you have been a fabulous mentor. You even did an entire session for folks breaking down, um, all these amazing things about how you've become a job shopper and you've really embodied it. So it's been really cool to see you be just the embodiment of these strategies. Also, we were talking a lot about the numbers game and, you know, really looking at the data and how you looked at the numbers and said like 1% conversion is not good enough. And that's something we've been talking a lot in our masterclass. So for your advice to folks, it's obviously like you've been, you've been a mentor volunteering for the program. You went through the program yourself. What advice kind of do you want to leave job seekers with?

Yeah, one, number one is bet on yourself. Um, like I mentioned, for me, um, it was like, I'm a space guy, like, I guess I'll get, I'll get what I get and I'll be happy with it. Um, the, you know, the confidence of just like, I can, I can walk into this role and I can own it. Um, and, and I can make myself like the most valuable hire that they've ever had. Um, the second is like you might be where you're supposed to be. So don't— like, if you're in a role 2, 3 years and you're like, man, I'm ready for something new, look internally. Like, it doesn't have to be a promotion within your current business unit. You could go like build a relationship in finance, accounting, human resources, wherever it is. And when that opportunity opens up, you're already top of mind with the hiring manager. So you're getting closer to where you want to be, like where your heart really lies. So don't be afraid to take like the job that's there in the company to get in with that company and in that, in that field or industry. And then the last would be like the, the thing that, that I took away is you can be anything you want to be. Yeah, some, some roles— surgeons, lawyers, doctors— they require very specific training, but there's nothing that stops you from kind of reinventing yourself and leveraging the skills that you have already and the expertise that you have already and kind of just forging your own path in your career.

I love it. It's called— I call it the unpaved path, right? Where it's like, yes, doctors, lawyers, they're paved paths. Okay. They're long, expensive paved paths that are— they're excellent paths for some people. Absolutely. But then there's the unpaved path. That I'm over here putting up signposts for folks who need help. But for most of us who are kind of just going out into the wild trying to find these rules, there are no signposts. And so, but the great thing about it is it's a shortcut, right? Like, even though the path is unpaved, you can get to that destination, realize, oh my gosh, I have arrived. So thank you so much, Paul, for coming on. I'm going to send you away with a Wi-Fi high five. Thanks. Have a good one. All right. Thanks so much for that from Paul. That was awesome. What a great guy Paul is. Like I said, in that, you know, he actually volunteers his time to be a mentor to the folks in the Standout Job Search program. So he's just really— he's really fully embraced the idea of constantly giving back and constantly networking and upleveling himself in his career. So go ahead and drop your, uh, drop your questions in the chat. I know, you know, I know it's been an hour, but I'm definitely happy to stay on and answer some more questions. I'm having such a good time. So, uh, you know, any questions you have that you want me to go over from today's session, uh, let's dive in, let's do it. I'm seeing lots of thank you Pauls in the chat. I know, He's great. He's great. And he'll definitely— I'll definitely send you all of his thanks because he really— I think it's really great that he shared his experience. So let's get into the Q&A. All right. So we have a question here. When you don't currently have a job, would you recommend getting very specific in targeting payroll jobs or making a more general approach to break into payroll? So I would say when it comes to like, I like in general that you're like payroll, right? Like that is, that's a pretty focused area. So I think if you're staying within that realm, that to me is focused enough. I don't think you have to get too much more focused. Like there are slight variations in those roles and there are, I mean, they're genuine variations, but I mean, like, I feel like you tuning your resume to a few different types of payroll roles is much better than you being like, I want to do payroll and I want to do project management and I want to do this and I want to do that. So yes, I think that that's totally good. So let's see what else we have here. Is it reasonable to have a value of feeling good at my job, or does that not need to be a value since my strengths will make me feel good at it? Yes, strengths will cover that, Brennan. Yes, you need to find jobs that naturally play to your strengths, because mastery is fun. It's not about, oh, I want to work at a video game company because video games are fun, or I want to work at a yoga company because I love yoga. No, the— what's fun is being really good at your job. And so yes, I would say focus on your strengths, and that will come through. So now you can add other things to your values. Okay, let's see. I used to work for in-house advertising, adverting for companies, but recent job role is sales related. I want to go back to advertising roles, which I'm looking for. How can I present this in my resume? So let me show you. So what we do for that, for on our platform here is you want to create a highlight section. So not everyone needs to have a highlight section. Okay. So plenty of you who are on this call right now don't need a highlight section on your resume. But in this very specific situation— or not in this very specific, but in this situation where your best experience is kind of buried, you, you want to have created a highlight section. So here it says a highlight section can be especially useful if you're making a career change. Your most recent job title isn't the same, similar, or is one step below the role you're going for. Your most recent relevant experience was not from a recent job, so your experience is buried. So I would say using yes statements and creating a highlight section would be the best possible situation for you in that case. And then, you know, there's all those tools on how to build and all that. But that's, that's basically how you unbury, a lot of that experience. And there's a few other strategies as well. But I would say like, especially, you know, as a core strategy, that one's really good. Um, okay, this is an interesting question. So is LinkedIn content strategy integral to a job search strategy? I would say short answer is no, it's not. I have tons— I would say the majority of my clients never post on LinkedIn. Um, are they still getting sourced on LinkedIn and getting a lot of opportunities from LinkedIn? Yes. Do the people who post on LinkedIn and have kind of a content strategy get more opportunities? Yes. So yes, it's good to do. But I know a lot of people— what I, what I coach around is what is the fastest, lowest lift, like most in, in tune with your approach that is best. Like for some of you, posting on LinkedIn is so terrifying or just so exhausting. Like, it's like the worst possible thing you could ever do. And for those clients, I'm like, skip it. It's fine. Let's focus your attention elsewhere. But for others, you have like a natural knack. Like, I have a natural knack for it, right? You guys know I'm on social media all the time. I have a natural ability and I enjoy sharing things. And so for me, that would be a good job search strategy. But for you, maybe not. I'm actually interested, Priya, do you have a natural knack for it? Curious. Okay, let's see. How do you guard against fake job posts, says Matthew. So as far as fake job posts go, there's, there's some things you need to consider. So first of all, I would typically apply on a company's website. So that makes it so it's not actually a fake job, right? It's not like a fake company or anything like that. So you're— that already kind of takes care of that. But then maybe you're also thinking, well, how do I know that role is actually still open? It could be on their website, but not still open. This is where the step that I shared for the application stage is so important. And that was step 2, which was make sure your application is seen. So with any of my clients, I always say we need interactions with the applications. Okay, so that is how you know, okay, if I'm talking to someone, I know it's being seen. I'm actually talking to someone. That's how you can know, okay, this is actually— this, this role actually exists and all that. So really making sure that that's incorporated as part of your rhythm is really great. All right. So let's see. Is it possible to get an offer in today's job market after only one round of interview? And how do you identify fake offer? So I think, you know, a lot of my clients are higher level. So they're maybe like, at least manager level, but a lot of director VPs, even C-levels. Almost never. Like, if you only got one interview for that level of role, almost never. Now, of course, if your role is more like one, like a very focused skill set and they're able to evaluate that in one interview, and maybe your impact in the organization is quite focused, then yes, that's possible. And a fake job offer, that's typically if they're asking for any money from you. And yeah, and if they're kind of being weird about, oh, we only talk on WhatsApp or anything weird like that. All right. How to figure out a strategy to address resume gaps during interviews. So ideally you've already addressed the resume gaps on your resume. So you can maybe just put like a quick little line of took care of my aging parents who have since passed. Like, literally, you can just write that of like, that's where I was for those 3 years or whatnot. And then they don't have to talk about it, right? Because in interviews, you want anything like that to be as short of an answer as humanly possible so that you can move on and focus on things that are actually going to get them to want to hire you. So I would say for that is just trying to make sure that you have an answer that's as concise as possible. But doesn't actually bring up additional questions, you know, where it's like, you know, there's family-related situations. It's like, okay, so maybe a little too big. All right, so, um, all right, let's see what is up next. That's a very high offer rate to target. How do we ensure we can close the hiring process. So what generally what my clients do that really seals the deal is several things. So they will use a consultative interview strategy in the interview. They will speak in frameworks and structured thinking. They will hit on the 15 competence triggers. They will do like show, don't tells. To really kind of show, show their work and just really like basically make the interview almost feel like it is a conversation with a coworker rather than a situation that feels like, oh, I'm in an exam. There's only one right answer. That is the curse. That is usually like when you're, when you're losing out on the final round. If you're thinking of it as this is an exam, there's only one right answer, that can absolutely destroy you right now. All those things I just said, I mean, if you have like 6 or 7 hours to talk about all those, you know, let's go. But basically, yeah, there's, there's so many different components, but those are, those are really important ones. Um, okay, so, um, Andrew says, I get 5th and 6th rounds and then the company decides to go in a different direction. Not how hire at all or totally restructure the role. Feel, feel like a free consult for them, like you. How do I convert? Yes. So this is super, super common. This happens to a lot of people. This is happening more common now than ever is this, you know, we are spending more time, you know, interviewing and then canceling and then not going with anyone. Not hiring at all. And it's because companies are really confused. They're really worried. Someone resigns while they're doing the interview process and they realize, okay, well, so do we hire now 2 people or do we just hire one even more senior person to cover for these 2 people who— these roles that are now empty, right? There's so many things that are happening behind the scenes that are not your fault. Now, we are going to dedicate some time to another session later this week. I think it's day 3, if I'm correct. I think it's day 3 where I'm going to talk more about this topic. But really what's important here is to reduce risk. Okay, that's the capital R word I want you to focus on here, reducing risk with really making sure that they are saying, oh my gosh, we need to hire Andrew, and understanding that hiring you is a risk. And a lot of us don't think about it that way. So how do you mitigate risk? How do you put yourself in their, in their seat and realize that? And like I said, we'll talk more about this, but it's a super, super common situation and I'm glad you brought it up. All right. Oh, Andrea says, how do you know what is truly required in a job description? Many are loaded with a diverse number of skills and responsibilities, too much and not necessarily appropriate compensation ranges. Yes. And then there's a flip side, right, Andrea, where they don't put enough and you're like, how am I supposed to make any sense of this? Um, when, you know, for these job descriptions. So here's the thing is, job description is a wish list and it changes while they're interviewing you. So what's super important is you just gotta do what— do do what you do best based on the job description. And then once you get into the interview, you get the first round interview and they're like, hey, like, are you familiar with us? Um, are you familiar with the role? And you say, yes, I had a chance to review the job description, but it would be great to hear from your perspective what's most valuable in this role. And you will hear a summary of the role that might not match what the job description is, and that is going to be super helpful because that recruiter or that hiring manager, whoever you're talking to, is going to have the most recent conversation they've had about the role on top of mind. And they're probably going to spill what has been missing about top candidates, right, of what they're really looking for. And so then you can lean your interview answers into that. It's so important to be nimble with your interview answers, to make sure that you are, you are adapting to what they're telling you in real time and then also taking your notes. From that interview and using it in future interviews as well. That is super important. All right, y'all, we have had such a good time tonight. Thank you so much for coming, for answering all of your, you know, asking all these great questions, for participating in the chat, just for being an absolute pleasure. Reminder that until May 25th, so that's Monday, we are keeping our coaching program open for $1,500 off. There's 3 different tiers. You can find all the pricing at www.southmayway.com/learn. Everything's there, all the features, all the, you know, you can figure out which, which one is best for you. And it, you know, and also we just have tons of free coaching this week, right? That we have 4 more sessions left. I'm so excited to be here with you. Thank you so much for all of your participation. If I could get a Wi-Fi high five in the chat. You all have been such a wonderful participation today and we're just getting started. Okay, so make sure this is on your calendar. Let's be real, like you're not going to come unless it's on your calendar. And it has been an absolute pleasure being here with you tonight and for all of this week. Oh yes, looking forward to day 2. I'm seeing lots of fun folks in the chat. Thank you. Wife— oops, here we go. We got some— let your chat here. Wi-Fi high five. Oh my gosh, so much love. Uh, you all have been the absolute best, and I will see you same time, same place tomorrow.