Enchantment with Chloe Valdary | A Bit of Optimism with Simon Sinek: Episode 38

Since the murder of George Floyd, individuals and organizations have been forced to take a hard look at how they think about diversity, equity and inclusion. Dei. And there are some competing theories as to how we should do that. Chloe Valdari has some ideas that are different to many of the standard ways in which it's being discussed. Hers starts with love. This is a bit of optimism.

Chloe, thanks so much for joining me. I do appreciate it. I want to have an honest conversation with you. Since the murder of George Floyd, the significance of DEI in our workplace has become amplified and for good reason. And a lot of organizations are forced, and a lot of not just organizations. I think a lot of us are forced to take a look at ourselves and our communities and our companies and how we organize them and lead them. And a lot of companies are seeking help from DEI practitioners to help them do better. I understand it's not a new industry, but it's a growing industry and I would argue still figuring itself out for sure. And from the stories that I'm hearing, some of it isn't working as intended. It's either creating more division or creating backlash. I've heard in some cases. I read about you in an article in the Atlantic. I read about your work and you had a very different point of view about how DEI is currently and dare I say, traditionally normally being trained. And that's why I wanted to talk to you, because I was really inspired by your point of view. So I guess the first question is, how did you come to your point of view? Because your point of view is different than the norm.

I suppose I should say what my point of view is.

That's probably a good starting point.

Yes. In order to answer that question, I guess when it comes to specifically tackling the issue of racism and combating racism, and to be precise, by combating racism, I mean combating supremacist ways of thinking. My understanding is that supremacist ways of thinking are actually fundamentally informed by an inferiority complex within the human beings who hold those supremacist ways of thinking, whether that stems from a feeling of a lack of self worth or a lack of belonging or lack of a sense of meaning, which are all experiences that we can all fall into just by virtue of being human. But the way that can manifest when it comes to this topic negatively is in the supremacist way of thinking. And so, you know, I have an anti racism firm called Theory of Enchantment, and we do training, but our training is rooted in the idea that you have to actually give people A self refinement practice in order to deal with all of the things that are part of the human condition that make you susceptible to that overcompensating impulse. Whether that's fear of imperfection, whether that's dealing with vulnerability, dealing with mortality, dealing with baggage. All of these things, again, are natural to the human condition. So the idea behind that is if you can be equipped with a practice that will enable you to have a healthy and holistic relationship with yourself first, then you will be able to be open, be radically curious about difference, and translate that love and compassion that you have for the self to the other.

How is DEI currently implemented or trained that that makes your point of view different?

Well, I'd say there are different types of trainings out there, but one that has certainly reached more popularity in the, in the last year is a kind of training that isn't really based on the inner psychology of the human being. It simply says that if you are white, then you by definition engage in quote, unquote, whiteness. You have to atone for your whiteness. This might take the form of people being encouraged to self segregate in trainings and speak about their experiences, whether if they're black or if they're white. This may take the form of what some people have called struggle sessions and getting white people to sort of admit to their privilege and admit to how they have perpetuated advantages over disadvantaged individuals. Part of the problem with that approach is that it actually runs the risk of increasing that insecurity that we spoke about among both blacks and whites, quite frankly. And it is again that insecurity that is fodder for the impulse to overcompensate, which feeds right into supremacist ways of thinking in the first place.

So by making us feel insecure, we're actually feeding the beast.

Exactly.

And so what you're proposing as an alternative is to, instead of viewing the room as black and white, is to view everybody in the room as human beings who all struggle with issues of insecurity, inadequacy, belonging, the list goes on of what we all struggle with and helping us look inside and say, this is who I am. And coming to terms with that, how does that then translate to improving race relationships?

The idea is that if you have a much more healthy relationship with yourself, if you're able to deal healthily with all the things that trip you up, let's say someone is rude towards you, and instead of seeing that rudeness as, oh, you're being rude, this is wrong, you actually start to internalize that because you recognize that something within you is also capable of rudeness and has also been rude in the past. Right. So then you are triggered by that, and then you start to other that person and then you start to condescend to that person. So the idea is that by becoming aware of your own complexity and your own capacity for good and evil, your own capacity for joy and despair, all these things exist within you. You'll be less likely to otherize people and to condescend to them because you will also recognize the complexity that exists within them.

Hard question for you.

Go ahead.

I am drawn to your work because my work very much centers around love and community and finding common ground. In your opinion, what is it about the way that DEI is predominantly taught today that became more popular now than your point of view? Like why isn't it the other way around?

Well, I quite frankly, honestly don't think most people engage with the writings and the thinking of individuals like Dr. King and James Baldwin. We tend to pay lip service to these individuals. I mean, James Baldwin has some controversial statements, certainly statements that would be controversial in light of today's in vogue diversity approaches. But instead of seriously wrestling with that, we might memorize a quote or two, but we aren't actually challenged by their ideas because their ideas were radical.

What are some of the more important lessons that Baldwin and King shared that have informed this point of view for you?

Well, one of the important things was this notion that if you are a survivor of racial oppression, and I say survivor, not victim, because Baldwin actually said, I have been mistreated, I am not a victim, I have been mistreated. Dr. King taught that if you were a survivor of racial oppression, you specifically were susceptible to falling into a spirit of revenge and to falling into a spirit of resentment and to falling into a spirit of self righteousness. And so you had to be on guard with yourself to guard yourself against that tendency. So many of the protesters who went out to protest during the civil rights movement, before they went to protest, they would ask themselves, am I harboring a spirit of resentment? Am I harboring a spirit of self righteousness? If so, I'm not going to go out and protest us today because the person who is engaging in racist behavior is still my brother, is still my sister. And I don't want to project anything that's going to add to the suffering that my oppressor is experiencing. If someone is feeling so worthless that they feel they have to claim that they are better than another person because of their skin color, Then that person is suffering, Right? And that's a very. Also different language that was used then that we don't really talk about today. But the idea is like, when I protest, I'm going to attempt to protest with absolute love flowing through me. And if I'm not in a headspace, if I'm not in a spirit where that's possible, then I'm not going to protest. So that's a very hard, again, radical, and I think the true meaning of the word work.

Can you tell me a specific story where you saw this transformation take place, where you saw the introspection happen, even begrudgingly?

I can give you a story specifically that I know about a guy who practiced these ideas, Daryl Davis. So Daryl Davis is an African American man who's a brilliant musician. That's his first claim to fame. But his second claim to fame is that he successfully got hundreds of members of the KKK to leave the kkk. And he did this by painstakingly deciding to be in community with these individuals, right? To engage them, to essentially wear them down, and to continue to be in community with these individuals even though they didn't like him because of his skin color. And by doing that for long periods of time, this inevitably created an identity crisis on the part of these men. Because their ideology told them one thing about black people, but their experience showed them something else. And the outcome of that, of course, was over. Two members eventually ended up leaving the organization the kkk. Now, in order for Daryl Davis to be able to do this, it required that Daryl Davis know himself and understand his own self worth. He had such a strong.