Relationships with Christina Tosi & Will Guidara | a Bit of Optimism (Podcast): Episode 1

Hey, everyone, this is Simon, and today I talked to Christina Tosi and Will Grada. Will is the owner of eleven Madison park, one of the best restaurants in the world. Christina Tosi is the founder of Milk Bar, and if you've never tried her cereal milk ice cream, you're really missing out. What a lot of people don't know is that they're married, and this is the first time they've ever done a podcast or an interview to together. They're good friends. I love them. Every time I talk to them, I walk away a little wiser. And this time was no exception. We spent our time talking about relationships, what relationships mean, how to cultivate relationships, and how relationships have changed during these Covid times. Hope you get as much out of it as I did. And one of the things you'll learn from this discussion is why this is a bit of optimism.

Two of my favorite people in the world. How are you?

Hi, Simon. Simon.

So if I. This is the first time you guys have ever done something together, right?

That's true.

I mean, a podcast together. You've done many things together.

I was like, this is the first time we've ever spent time together, right?

Well, technically, I walked down the aisle alone in one direction, and I guess we did it together on the way.

Out, but that's true. That is true.

This is the first time we've done an interview together or a podcast together or anything together.

It's true.

Because I don't even think people know who you both are. But not everybody knows that you're a power couple, that you're married.

I don't know about that.

Or a couple.

A couple.

No. We are doing this together in pursuit of our relationship with you.

Aw, I love it.

It's true.

Which is the thing that I want to talk to you about.

I love that.

Relationships, relationships, relationships. How did you guys meet? I'm just curious. I don't actually know the story.

Oh, man.

I. Okay. I had a crush on her for about two years before we met, and we were in the same industry, and so we both knew who each other were. I probably knew more who she was than she knew who I was.

I knew who he was. I knew who he was. But, you know girls in, like, the food and beverage industry, a lot less. Well, back then, at least there were a lot less girls, a lot more boys.

But she did this video that she put on Eater, and it was her and Carly Kloss celebrating this cookie collaboration they had done. And me and a few guys were watching it, and I was like, oh, my God, she's beautiful. And they were like, yeah, she is. It turned out all of them were talking about Karlie Kloss, and I couldn't stop thinking about Christina from that moment forward. And every.

Also full transparency. We were in leotards, which makes the conversation.

No, no, that doesn't make it pervy. I was. Well, by the way, you're the one that filmed.

It just means Will. It just means you grew up in the 80s.

Yeah.

But so then every time someone that I knew was meeting with her, like through whatever, an event or this or that, every time I'd say, hey, find out if Christina Tosi is single. And every time they'd come back and say, no, she's not. And then eventually one time someone did, they said, yeah, she's single. And so we were planning this charity event at eleven Madison Park a couple months later, and I made sure that she was asked to be the pastry chef for that event. So good. And that.

Because nothing makes more sense than the pastry chef to the people coming to make pastries at the best restaurant in the world. The most elitist place. Yeah, I see that. Very obvious connection.

But Simon, he also, like, I show up his wing. His wing man is actually this, like, I think she's maybe like 60 or 65 year old angel of a woman that used to be Mick Jagger's personal chef. Who's the kind of woman that like, I want to spend my time with in an event like that. She's super nurturing, she's super lovely. She make connections. But also like, we call when Will does it, tractor beams you right? Where like when she's with you, she's fully with you. And so it's not like a, hey, what's up? We're at a party. Move on to the next one. So this one was like, paula, you're my wing woman. Don't let her leave now.

She was, she was a guest at the dinner. I went out and I got her and I said, hey, you need to come back to the kitchen when desserts are being plated and you need to start talking to Christina and don't let her leave until I'm able to get her phone number. Because Christina's the kind of person, she'd come in, do the dessert, she's all business and leave. And so Paula kept her there until like 1:30 in the morning and gave me all the time I needed. And oh, and then the other thing, and this is where it does maybe make me sound a little creepy. I said, Also, I want you to take pictures of the moment that I start to, like, flirt with her, because I want to give her those pictures on our one year anniversary.

So my question. My question is, is there a shoebox filled with pictures of all the girls that you flirted with?

Not anymore.

Not anymore.

Man. Took a lot of those pictures before one of them actually worked.

People say that to me. People like, as soon as I met them, I knew we were going to get married. And I think to myself, I've had that thought on a lot of first dates.

The beauty of relationships and romance. But it worked. This one worked.

This time it worked.

It stuck.

I know, all joking aside, you understand how to form relationships, but you also. And I think the thing that's magical about you is there's a difference between transactional relationships and a real relationship. And you know how to navigate both. And I'm so impressed at your ability, you know, because it's like a little kid thing, like, you know, will you be my friend? Like, that's not supposed to work. And yet you and I have become dear friends and you got a wife out of it. You know, just walk, just. I want to understand where that skill set comes from.

That's a dad thing. When I was a kid, my dad gave me a paperweight, and on the paperweight was a quote. What would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? And his whole thing was whatever it is you really want. Like, ask yourself that question, answer it, and then just try to do that. And so whether it's aspirations for career or life or friendship or marriage, I think it's having the confidence and conviction such that you're willing to say what you want out loud, which a lot of people are unable to do because you run the risk of letting yourself or those around you down if you say it out loud and then fail to achieve it. But also, how many times have people said, oh, man, that guy and I would be really good friends? But then it ends there. The difference between, like, people that everyone has good ideas, it's the people that try to accomplish them that go on to achieve something. And I think there's no difference between professional ambition and personal ambition in that way. Right.

Christina, what I love yours is Will is a front of house guy, you know, he's a professional schmoozer and he knows how to.

It's true.

Not a bad thing. I mean, but Christina, what I, you know, I've watched your baking club, and what I. What I. You have a magnetic personality, even from afar. And like, people fall in love with you that you don't know. Case in point, your man sitting next to you.

You know, like, there are wonderful bakers, there are wonderful people in a kitchen who are unable to exude the passion for their love of cooking or their love of baking. So out loud, you know, if anything, I mean, I've not been in as many kitchens as you have, but I've been to kitchens before and stress exudes for sure.

Yeah.

But passion rarely exudes, even at high levels. Is there something that happened as you were growing up that I don't even know how to put it. Like, no shit's given. Like, it just falls out of you, you know?

Yeah. It won. If you ever. Well, one day you will meet my mom and maybe a lot more will make sense. She definitely raised my sister, my older sister and I, or maybe it just rubbed off on us, but she definitely raised us with a sense. With a strong sense of self. With a sense of self that was. That tried to find the balance of, like, respectful, but also just unapologetically who you are, I think, for, like, what. What I might exude that sticky to someone. I also, like, take things to, like, a level. I mean, we were having. The three of us were having dinner together the other night, and you asked me a question. I get really excited about it or really worked up. I'll take it to a whole nother level and he'll be like, okay, okay, okay. I love you so much. Be quiet. Quiet. But I think it's. It was probably being raised in an environment where if you felt strongly about something that that was encouraged, like, as. As simply put as that for the good and the bad that it comes with. And then I think as I made my way in the world, not even necessarily in the profession, in the realm of food, but certainly in the realm of food that I think I just learned quickly by like, taking other people's body language or emotional temperatures through whatever mannerisms, tone of voice and so on, to say if you are willing to give part of your. More than a part of yourself, more than where. If you draw your line of what you're willing to give in yourself and you move that line forward and you give more, it gives people a little bit more permission to give more back, or it maybe challenges in them what they're able to give or it sticks. And there's most certainly an altruism to how I was raised through action, but then also through how you hold yourself or what gets you excited. I was definitely raised by a Mom that I sort of say, like, she made life happen. And that wasn't in any way other than the emotional. Like, it's Thursday, like, what are we gonna get into today? And she made the silly. She made moments silly moments or fun moments or made holidays feel like holidays. And that sort of just like every occasion, every moment is an opportunity to do that. And so I think it's sort of like it stuck to me and shows itself in different ways.

One of the things that I. And as you're saying that I'm realizing because, you know, when you're friends with someone, you don't think about the friendship. You know, I don't think about, why do I like Will and Christina? You know, you just. I just am really, really excited every time I get to talk to you or hang out with you. Like, that's how it comes out. So this conversation is fascinating because I'm sitting here thinking, going, why do I like Willa, Christina? And beyond the obvious, we get along, we share values, the things that I think all friendships have in common. I think you, individually, but amplified as a pair, do something for others that everybody on the planet wants, which is to feel safe being themselves. And, you know, I can say things, I can do things. Christina, you give permission for people to be overly excited about something that people aren't necessarily excited about, like adding peanut butter to a cookie.

You know, it's exciting, Simon.

It's exciting.

Get excited.

And I'm just realizing when I'm with you guys, I'm immensely relaxed from the minute I say hello. And then there's a residual. After I say goodbye, I feel very, very relaxed. And I have. I mean, I hate the word permission, but an environment is set to be completely myself, warts and all. And it's always. And it's always with a laugh.

I think the same is true in return, to be clear.

And whenever any of us says things that, you know, we've all done this. We've done this with each other, where you catch yourself saying something like, probably shouldn't have said that out loud. Usually it's met with a laugh. You know?

Yes.

Have either of you ever unfriended somebody in real life? Not because they did anything bad or wrong, but you just realized that the level of energy that, like, you know, unfriending is a thing online, but should it be a thing offline? And I'm thinking back when I learned my why, when I go back and this new journey began for me. And the big thing about my why was less about my Career and more about finding what I call a quiet, calm, sort of like a quiet confidence, rather a quiet confidence in myself where I felt totally. I found a new piece in myself that I didn't have to tell anybody about. I was just okay with being me, you know, that was the big thing that came out of my why. And I remember, I remember it didn't. It wasn't like I sat down and did it. I just remember taking note and realizing that I had friends, that I was the only one investing in the friendship, that if I never called them, I doubt we would ever have plans, you know, that I would always be the initiator. And I might have enjoyed my time with them. Like I had fun, you know, I had fun when I was with them. But did I have a deep trust that I feel safe to be my complete self around them? Probably not. And that, that you shouldn't in an early friendship, but you hope that friendships grow and progress, like anything grows and progresses. And you can see if a friendship is going that direction. And I've been friends with these people for years and I would call them entry level friendships. They were like beginning friendships even though they were years old. And so I started asking myself questions like, I have a finite amount of time on this planet and I have professional ambitions, I have service ambitions, I have personal ambitions, all of which are about growing. And if I spend time with somebody that I literally am stagnant around, even if I'm having fun, should I have fewer of those friends? Because I have other friends that I can laugh, but I can also have deep conversations, I can feel set myself. And when I leave any kind of interaction with them, I feel slightly better, wiser than I was before I went in. And so I sent these really polite emails to these friends. I should try and dig them up. So these really polite emails basically explaining how I really like them, I enjoy them, but I recognize that I find that I'm the only one investing energy in this. And I realized that it's too much and I'm going to stop being the initiator. And if they email me or call me, I will absolutely take the call and would love to see them but politely putting it balls in your court, like, if you want this friendship, I'm here. And neither of them wrote back? Oh my gosh, no, it was a good thing.

Friendship is such a weird thing because it requires the same amount of pursuit and investment in many ways as a marriage. Not in all ways, but like the idea of like a breakup with a friend.

Yeah, Is a pretty why not? Like we, you know, but, but the thing that was important to me was it wasn't mean spirited. My emails were not angry, they were not accusatory. They were simply matter of fact. And. But it was a recognition in me that I am okay with a few friends that are just fun, that there's really no depth there. But I can't have that be too many.

Yeah.

You know, and it's really, I think in any relationship there's accountability on both sides.

Yes.

And I think I had to learn the lesson. I've learned the lesson and continue to learn this. And I'm still very imperfect in this pursuit that, you know, we get busy with things but we have to be accountable. Like I'm so sorry I haven't reached out and I think it's correct for friends to call and complain when you've sacrifice when you've let the friendship down. A friend of mine did it to me recently. She called me and basically scolded me for having let the friendship down. And she was 100% right. I offered no excuses because there's no excuse. There's never, you know, we, everybody says I'm really sorry, I'm busy. We all have time to send a text to say I'm thinking about you and that's all is required. And, and I, all I had to do was take accountability and then prove myself in the weeks later that I care about her immensely. That didn't mean fawning, but that just means going back to the way it was where I just checked in every now and then and told her I was thinking about her.

For me, the easiest way to think about it is like is energy based, which I think is what you're saying and what you're sharing in a different way. I think about it as what I need, what I want to give when I go into a relationship. A friendship is energy. Obviously I'm going to show up with energy or it's obvious to me that that's how I'm going to show up.

Up.

I'm gonna show up excited, I'm gonna show up. I wanna give more in a friendship than what's expected and so on. And the easiest way for me over the past few years to think about friendships is does this friendship give me energy? Like it's not about anything else. I don't need anything else other than knowing that it's not gonna take energy from me. Like is it net neutral or net positive from an energy standpoint? And I think that's sort of the. Like, when we spend time together and it's fun and it's energizing, whether we talked about something heavy and deep or challenging or light and silly and goofy. But at the end of it, it's like you have the energy going in in anticipation of time together, and you have the energy on the way out. You're not let down emotionally. It doesn't feel like someone, like, took from you from an energy standpoint. And that, for me, is, like, the easiest way to think about it. Do I feel re. Energized? Do I feel refused, fueled by time with this person?

And I don't think. I don't think. I don't think the three of us have ever hung out ever, without one of us sending a text after we're done saying, I had so much fun. Like, it's not, like, to your point about energy, Christina, like, goes with you. Like, when you say goodbye, it's actually not goodbye. Like, you're still. It's the way I define. Yeah, I'll put it in. I'll use a metaphor that both of you can relate to. It's the way I define a great meal.

Like, I love to joke about, like, you know, I live on the Upper west side in New York City, and there's no great restaurants on the Upper west side. There's good restaurants. Like, how was your dinner? It was fine. It was fine. It was good. It was fine. A great restaurant. A great meal is a meal that you're still talking about after you've left the restaurant.

Yes.

Like, can you believe that chicken? You know, I've never had lasagna like that. And then the next morning, you call your friend that you had dinner with, you're like, oh, drink about that lasagna, you know? But the point is, you keep talking about the meal. That's a great meal. It's not a good meal. That's a great meal.

I think. I think another for the energizing thing. I think also, we're both. In spite of the fact that she's a chef, she's in the hospitality business, and she embodies that sense of hospitality and generosity and nurturing as well as any dining room person I've met. I think when you are that kind of person and you decide that someone's important to you, it's the equivalent of, like, if we all, like, start every day with a glass full to the brim of water, you're pouring your water into the other person's glass. And the best friendships are where you each show up with a full glass of water, and you're pouring your water into each other's glass. You know what I mean? Like, it can't be a relationship where you're always filling the other person's glass and they're never turning around and filling yours.

That's. It makes me. It makes me think of two things, which is relationships should be equitable, not equal. An equal relationship is I cook, you cook, I clean, you clean, I take out the garbage, you take out the garbage. That's an equal relationship. An equitable relationship is I'll cook, you do the dishes, you put the plates away, you empty the dishwasher, I'll take the garbage out. Yes, that's an equitable relationship. We're not doing the same things, but everybody feels. Feels whole, and everybody feels they're making their contribution. And the thing that you've been asked to do might actually be really easy for you, and the thing that you're not doing, it might be really hard for you, but that doesn't matter. It's that both parties feel that the relationship is balanced. So it's equitable, but not equal. And I think a lot of. I've definitely made that mistake, and I think it goes with time and expectation as well. So, like, nobody walks around with a notebook in their back pocket keeping track of all the things I've done for you and you've done for me. And we don't sit down at the end of the week and be like, I did seven things for you and you've done no things for me. You know?

Yes.

For me, the good relationship is not so much the stuff that is done. And this goes back to the reason to unfriend is, I may do a thousand things for you. I may be filling your glass every day. I might be even the one initiating the plans all the time. This is actually really helpful. This is a thought I didn't have before, which is I would actually be okay making the plans and being the initiator all the time if I have the absolute confidence that the one time I need you, you will 100% be there. Even though the book is empty of stuff you've done, of initiative, initiatives you've taken, but I have deep, deep confidence that the one time I need you, the answer will be yes, and you'll be there no matter what. And then I'm happy to be the initiator.

People do, but, like, when you look at, like, marriages that are breaking down, it generally coincides with the moment that people do start to keep A list of what the other person's done and you have done. It's almost like in any business deal, you do a contract and then you put it in the drawer and you hope to never have to look at it again. Right, Right. The moment you start, like, tallying, like, who's done what for who, is the moment that you know you're already in trouble.

Yeah.

And also, I think, to your point, like, I need you. I feel like the greatest relationships are the ones where you talk about equity.

Yeah.

She's gonna have off days, and I'll be there when she has an off day. And I feel totally comfortable having an off day myself. And I think that's true in friendship as well.

Like, did I ever tell you? Did I. Did I tell you my definition, my favorite definition of love?

What?

Love is giving someone the power to destroy you and trusting they won't use it. Oh.

Oh, I love that.

Isn't that magic? I don't know who said it. I've tried to find out who said it. I've looked it up. I can't find it. But I.

But I.

Love doesn't have to be romantic. Love can be friendship, love. And for me, it's the same. You know, I have friends who know things about me. My insecurities, my fears. You know, that even in the heat of anger, they could say one of these things that would go through my heart. And even in the heat of angry, even when they absolutely hate my guts in that moment, they'll never, ever, ever use that as ammunition.

It's amazing.

So the question is, is what is that skill set to invest in and be a good friend and have good friendships back that's missing that we're not teaching to people? I mean, you got stuff from your dad, Will and Christine. You got some stuff from your mom. And as you were saying that, I was thinking, oh, my God. My career, like the two of you, has largely been formed by a lesson I learned from my parents as well, from. I remember going to work with my dad when I was a little kid. He was an executive at a giftware company, and he was as equally. Exactly as nice and friendly to the person working in the studio as he was to his to the other executives. And I just would watch it happen. And I learned it was never conscious. It was just the way I acted. And I remember in my own career, I worked at an ad agency. And I remember, like, whenever we had extra food after, I would always take it down to the mailroom and share it with the guys in the mailroom, because I knew that they weren't upstairs, and they didn't. So, like, it was just the. What you. It's just what we did. And years and years later, I was giving a talk somewhere, and one of the people came up to me, who was an executive, and she came up to me and said, I knew your dad, like, 15 years ago, whatever, when I was a junior, junior, junior person at this company, that he was an executive. And I always remember your dad because he was always nice to everyone. And to hear that was. Choked me up, you know, to hear that 15 years later that.

That.

That affects somebody that much that they would remember that, like. And I don't think we realize, like, us saying hi to someone, which we will forget about and means nothing to us, like, how powerful it is to see other people. And what we've all learned from our parents is this idea of seeing ourselves and seeing others, and that's the skill I think, that's missing.

And feeling seen.

And, of course. And feeling seen.

You know, I love all of that. And I think, by the way, I love that we're talking about relationship right now, because what. What a crazy time we're in. Full of so much challenge and difficulty, economic challenges for so many people. Health, death, like, so many. So much darkness. Right. But in. In it, there are silver linings. And one of the things I found, like, I think everyone is spending less money, buying less stuff, doing less things. And there's a couple ways I would articulate it. One is, like, I think life was full of so many highs, whether it's like, going to work, winning awards, running around, going to dinners that, like, the normal moments started to feel like lows. And so there's been, like, a restoration in my life of beauty to normal moments. But along with that, I felt in me a restoration of appreciation, like, this idea that I appreciate things more now than I did before. Another friend of ours is a pastor, and he shared with us this prayer that an older woman in the church shared with him, which is my prayer is that all the things we're being forced to do now, that we choose to do those same things when this is over.

Yeah.

And so, like, as it pertains to relationship and as it pertains to appreciation and pursuit and all of these things, my. My hope is that the things I find myself, like, just forced to do, that on the other side, I choose to do them because if. If not, what a waste this whole crisis will have ended up being in my life.

Yeah. It would have been just A loss of life and no silver linings. Realized what you said. I want to underscore it because I think it really touches a nerve that things that were normal were lows because our lives were so filled with dopamine and adrenaline and the pursuit of both in all its forms, that anything that didn't provide dopamine or adrenaline was. Was a physical low.

Yeah.

And things like oxytocin and serotonin, which are the love chemicals, you know, that take longer. They're not quick hit things. They build over time.

Yeah.

That investing in friendship, as opposed to gambling with friendship, because you invest in things that take time to gestate. You invest in education, you know, you invest in future as opposed to gambling that we gambled with our friendships, we took bets on friendships, and now we're learning to reinvest in friendships. And by the way, it's a long term investment, it's a long term payback, but it's super stable. But how do we make sure that when the dopamine and adrenaline come back that the normal continue to be highs rather than lows? I fear that yes.

Yeah. And I don't know that there's any way to ensure it. Yeah. We are. We are in the business of, like, professionally. We're in the business of saying yes. Of always finding a yes.

Yeah.

It's part of my entire ethos around hospitality.

Christina, will you add more sugar? Yes.

Yes.

In the dining room. If someone wants X and we don't have that, it's not no, it's yes, we can do this. Right. And that's a dangerous thing in life. If you say yes to too many people, you don't have the ability to say yes to yourself.

Yeah.

And so she was saying that. I was like, well, maybe the right thing to say is, hey, during this quarantine, I found that the best way for me to continue being able to serve others is to first pause and serve myself. And that means saying yes to less. And I'm so sorry that that means I can't show up for you, but I hope you understand. Yeah.

Instead of saying yes to the dress, say yes to the less.

And by the way, it has the added benefit of being the truth, which is always a lovely thing.

Well, I've learned this lesson the hard way and continue to learn it. It's one of the things. It's one of those gnawing lessons that I have to overcome because I try and say yes to everybody because I want to make good, I want to make right. And what I end up doing is spreading myself so thinly that I actually end up letting people down. And what I've learned is that actually just saying somebody just saying no to somebody, they would rather have a no than. Than a half hearted yes. Yeah.

Well, we have a question for you.

Okay.

He seems very unexcited about this.

He's not excited about the.

Well, I don't know what it is. I was enjoying the conversation.

No, no, no. We're not trying to. So, okay. My dad. We've talked about. My dad already told you one of the quotes. Another one of his quotes is the secret to happiness is always having something to look forward to too.

Yeah.

And that's a big part of our lives. And I think right now a lot of people are spending a ton of time focusing on all the things that they miss.

Yeah.

And in our home, we've been thinking just a ton about re articulating that. And just it's amazing how when you switch out a few words, it can really alter your perspective. And so rather than talking about what we miss, we've been talking about the things that we can't wait to do again.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. And so our question is that we would like three very specific. Don't like high level me. Specific specificity. We would like very. Three very specific things that you are so excited to do that you simply cannot wait to do again.

I'm really excited. Like, I'm very cannot wait to just go and see friends again. That doesn't mean go out. It can be out, it can be in. But just to spend time with friends in person, you know, I'm spending more time with people like this, but I want to sit. I want to sit across for them. I want to raise my glass and actually clink their glass rather than clink.

The monitor.

The monitor. You know, I really am looking forward to just seeing the people I love again, you know, so much. A couple things that I'm really looking forward to are things that I've learned during COVID So they're not necessarily going back to, but continuing. I have absolutely fallen in love with family dinner. It's something that I did when I was a kid. When we were kids, we had family dinner every night, four nights a week. And Friday and Saturday my parents went out, you know, home cooked dinner. And my family, we're. We cook dinner and we take turns and we cook together and we clean up together or someone will cook and the rest of us will clean up. And I am so enjoying that ritual that I want to maintain that at least once a week, no matter how busy I am, I want to have a family dinner, and it could be with friends, you know, But I'm really looking forward to maintaining that family dinner. And another thing I'm really looking forward to, I'm looking forward to. I think there's a lot of lessons that we've. That we, Humanity, are learning, and I'm looking forward to people being more patient with each other. You know, it's one of the things I noticed the other day. You know, there's a great article about how the sale of pajamas has skyrocketed. Like, people have your morning pajamas, your daytime pajamas, your nighttime pajamas, obviously, you.

Know, cocktail pajamas, the whole.

And like, my mother. My mother. I've never seen my mother with gray hair my whole life. She's probably been gray since her mid-30s, but she's decided to stop dying her hair, mainly because she can't be bothered. And I haven't had a haircut in weeks. And I'll show up on, like, important things with a freaking T shirt on, and I look like a Q tip. And it's amazing how little I care right now, you know? And I'm not being. I'm not being subversive. I'm not being like, well, they have to accept me however I am. I'm really just fine if they think I look ridiculous. And it made me realize just how. How much of what we did on a daily basis was actually not for us. It was for the consumption of other people. No one is wearing jeans right now. The sale of jeans has plummeted, but the sale of, like, leggings and sweatpants and pajamas has skyrocketed. You. You can't get them. And so I really hope that everybody just, like, takes it down a notch. I'm looking forward to all of us showing up to work not in sweatpants and baseball caps, you know, but just down a notch. That we're all a little more comfortable with people being a little more who they are and how they want to be and how they want to show up rather than how we expect them to show up. I'm hoping that happens.

And that goes with ourselves, too, right? To your point.

And that goes with ourselves, too. Yeah.

I love that Christina calls that comfortably human. Yeah.

Yeah. Will. Will, give me. Why don't you give our parting thought?

Our parting thought? I don't know. Like, when. When we were talking about how do we ensure that we don't go back to where we were before?

Like, I don't want to go back to normal?

No. And I said, well, we can't ensure it. And that is the truth. You can't ensure anything. And then my mind started drifting and I wasn't fully present in our collective conversation for a moment because I was thinking, well, I also can't ensure that you and I will stay married. I can't ensure that you and I will remain friends. The only thing I can do is pursue you and to pursue you. And I guess the best thing to do to ensure that things don't go back to what they were is to as individuals, all of us separately and collectively, to articulate as best we can what it is that we're so valuing in this moment and then pursue it, and then surround ourselves with friends and relationships who will help us pursue those things together.

Thank you. Here's what I've learned over the course of this time with you. And I always leave wiser whenever I talk to the two of you. I have learned that we have spent so much time investing energy and time in work and ambition and rank and accumulation, that because we only have a finite amount of all of these things, that we fail to invest the time and energy in relationships. And whether we like to believe it or not, relationships need a lot of investment for them to grow and for them to thrive. And what I have learned is the importance of spending time and energy on all my relationships, my professional relationships, my personal relationships, my family relationships, because if I don't invest in them, they go away.

I love that.

I love you guys so much.

I love you, too.

I just, like.

I'm sure I'll be texting you afterwards saying how much I loved it.

That was so fun.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for doing this. Thank you for coming together. I love your relationship. I love how in love you are. You guys are always, you know, nudging each other and hugging each other whenever you're together.

Just be quiet.

I know, I know. And I, for one, feel very inspired to continue to invest in this friendship.

As do we.

Yes.

We'll see you soon, buddy.

I hope you enjoyed this bit of optimism. If you'd like more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. I hope you'll join me next time. Until then, take care of yourself and take care of each other. I'm Simon Sinek.