Unlock the Future of Work: Insights for Employers and Employees | Full Interview

Welcome everyone. Thank you for joining us today. I'm Kristi Lake, Chief People Officer at Twilio and I am excited to have the opportunity to talk to our special guest, Simon Sinek about a trend we're seeing in the people world and across the globe. The Great Resignation. Its impact on how we do business, how we lead and how we continue to create sustainable organizations. The Great Resignation, as some are calling it, is this phenomenon of employees that are voluntarily leaving their jobs in record numbers across almost every industry geography. We're seeing it globally In April of 2021, about a year into the pandemic, we started to see a surge of workers quitting. In the US more than 24 million people quit their jobs between April and September of 2021. In July, the UK hit an all time high of over 1 million job vacancies. Nearly a quarter of Singapore workers are planning to leave their current employer. And in the first half of 2022, a Microsoft survey of more than 30,000 global workers showed that 41% of employees were considering considering quitting or changing professions within the year. A great resignation indeed. We've all seen it or felt it, this exodus from the workforce. Maybe you or a friend or family member or someone on your team have quit their job. Perhaps you've had disruptions to how you do business, how you had to wait in longer lines for service due to staffing shortages. What's driving this? Employees are burnt out. One study of knowledge workers across eight countries found that 71% had experienced burnout in the last year. To escape it, they're leaving their employer or their workforce altogether. And experts expect the quitting to continue. So what does this mean for employees and how will employers and you as leaders attending today respond to here with us to discuss how you can create a workplace where employees are motivated to stay and do their best work, is best selling author of Start with why and the Infinite Game, Simon Sinek. Welcome Simon, it is wonderful to have you here with us today. You are known for your wildly successful books and TED talks, but a lot of people may not know that you got your start in ethnography, which is studies of human cultures and societies. Well, my background is not in ethnography as a chief People officer in many ways I'm studying people and our culture here at Twilio every day. I've been a huge fan of your work. It's been extremely impactful and influential in the people world going back to Start with. Why? So it's all the more exciting to have you to talk about this really important topic that I think every leader in every industry is really grappling with and coming to terms with. The world has changed a ton in the last two years, including meaningfully the way we work. People were sent home to work remotely. Some are coming back to the office. Is it back to what it used to be? Is it something better and new? So I'm really curious, just to start off, what questions should employers consider as they determine what this future of work looks like for them?

Well, good to see you, Kristy. Thanks for having me. So I think what's so fascinating about the working world right now is that it is in complete flux. Everything's been thrown up into the air, and quite frankly, we're not 100% sure where all the pieces are going to land. And I think a lot of things are on the table. People are questioning, you know, do we need a corporate headquarters or not? You know, that's being debated. You know, what is the role of remote work? You know, if it's possible, why should I come to the office? I've heard stories of people picking up the phone and calling their CEOs, calling their bosses and saying, oh, it's so fantastic. You know, our family's living the dream. We've moved to Florida, you know, and the company's like, but we're in Kansas, you know, and they're like, I know, it's just wonderful. We've always wanted to live in Florida, and now we can. And like, nobody asked, do you mind if we move to Florida? And so I think a lot of companies are like, do we say anything? Is that a problem? But we wanted everybody to come back to the office, and the answer is we kind of have to wait and see. And so when you ask, what should companies be asking themselves? I think they have to put everything on the table and ask themselves, what is the future of work? One of the things that I think will happen is there's just going to be more flexibility. So in the past, sort of pre our comfort with remote work, you know, you'd have to ask permission if I can work from home next Thursday. And I think what's going to happen in the future is people are going to pick up the phone and send an email saying, hey, I'm just going to work from home today, and everything will be fine. Like, everybody will be fine with that. But I think everything's on the table and those discussions have to happen. And you cannot dig your heels in and say, well, this is the way it used to be, and this is the way it's going to stay, it's just not going to work out well.

Yeah, and I think that's the fundamental question that companies are wrestling with. It's these notions of productivity and mentorship and learning and connection. And if we don't have the constructs that we worked in previously, where you can take for granted the hallway conversation and the water cooler chat, how do you replace that with something new and better? And so I'm curious, what do you make of what feels like the generally accepted belief that connection suffers, that relationships suffer? Like, what do companies make of all of this?

Well, of course that's true.

You know, we're social animals and we need human interaction. You know, one of the reasons mental health has become such a significant topic right now is because we're disconnected. And we have been disconnected from people who've seen kids suffering. We're seeing rises and all kinds of outbursts on airplanes and domestic violence is on the rise. You know, so their mental health is a real thing because we've been so disconnected from other people. You know, Isaac Stern, the virtuoso violinist, said music is what happens between the notes. Well, trust is what's built between the meetings. And as you pointed out, it's like it's the little chit chat walking into the conference room and the little chit chat and the meeting that continues after the meeting. You know, it's the bumping into somebody in the hallway and be like, oh, I meant to tell you, or stopping someone and saying, hey, you want to grab a coffee or lunch? And it's all those seemingly innocuous little interactions over the course of time that build up and. And build relationships, build trust. In a digital world that's gone, those don't exist. We only have the meetings. And so when you talk about what can replace those things, that's better? The answer is nothing. Nothing can replace and be better than genuine, real human connection. And I think what a lot of companies don't recognize is if you do have a distributed workforce and you're okay with remote work, you actually have to do more to create relationships. You can't just allow it to be organic like it is at the office. So, for example, one of the things we do, we have a Monday morning huddle where the whole team comes together and we say what's on our heart and mind, and we answer either a funny or poignant question that the huddle leader will ask. And we spend about 45 minutes to an hour on this call, and there is no discussion of work there's no talking deadlines or performances or projects, nothing. It is strictly human connection and we actually learn about each other. And, you know, we find out that people have kids, we find out that somebody's parent is in the hospital because they talked about how they had a difficult weekend. We talk about that, we find out that somebody loves cooking and we're finding relationship and it is a huge help. We've had many people who've joined our team throughout Covid who've never met, and this has been a fantastic way for them to meet each other. We're also a big fan of work sessions where you turn on Zoom, you just leave the picture in the corner and you just work together, even if you're not working together.

Or little social times where you have a drink together on a Friday or something. But we actually have to do these things prescriptively. That used to happen organically. And of course.

Covid restrictions notwithstanding.

Off sites now have even more importance and it becomes less about the person who's speaking on the stage or whatever.

Meeting we have at the off site and it becomes about the people getting to spend time together.

I love that. And yeah, I mean, I feel like the conversation has really shifted more towards this. How do we with intent craft opportunities for people to come together, whether it's your Monday morning huddle or your work on Zoom session. And it is really, I think, pressuring companies to think about what does that look like for.

Related to that? A lot has certainly been written in the belonging and inclusion space that whilst we've been working from home more broadly, underrepresented populations have not had some of the experiences that they would typically have, whether it's microaggressions or different things that happen throughout the day. And so how do you think that looks in the future when populations are more able to opt out of the in person, Whether I'm, you know, a parent or any other identity that would choose to be home more often. Where do you think that nets out over time when people are given the opportunity? Some in, some out. Does that hurt? Does that help?

Well, I think what we're talking about is empathy, you know, which is. Which is. It's a. It becomes even more important. I mean, you know this as an HR practitioner, which is the importance of listening and finding out where people stand and how they feel. You know, we are social, we're emotional animals and we react and make decisions based on our feelings, which include ego, fear, anxiety, all the things. And sometimes, and we know this from our personal relationships, sometimes the Decisions we make based on our emotions aren't necessarily the best forever, but that's how we feel now. And so I think it becomes very important when somebody makes a request that is different than what the company was expecting or intending, that you sit down and you listen rather than saying, no, this is how we're doing it. You want to find out that person needs to feel seen and heard. One of the. You know, I'm a great believer that the world is always balanced. I don't believe in good and bad. You know, I think that, you know, there's always a cost for the things that go well, and there's always lessons learned or something to be gained from when things go wrong. And I think one of the things that happened, definitely, with COVID and the murder of George Floyd is it held up a mirror and it revealed a lot of things that we either didn't see or only some of us saw, as you said, like microaggressions. And it became starkly clear to see the difference and recognize, I get this here and not there. And so I think one of the huge advantages is we can point to these things and talk about them rather than just be able. Rather than just what was before saying, I feel uncomfortable, but I don't know what it is. And rather, I can explain to you what's making me uncomfortable. And I think the idea of working together to find common ground, and like I said, most importantly, that people who raise their hand and say something's wrong or I'm uncomfortable, that they are made to feel seen and heard is absolutely vital. So empathy has to run through all of this. But I think there's huge advantages that come out of this and I think can improve corporate culture as a result.

Yeah, I love to hear that. And I. I think it puts pressure on all of us as employers to really think about creating equitable experiences, whether it's a remote first or some hybrid combination of how do we ensure that folks that may choose different paths still have access to, you know, career development and opportunities? Because at the end of the day, you know, we're here to do good work and hopefully continue to learn and grow. And so I think the pressure is definitely on. Speaking of which, much has been written and experienced this massive shift in what I would call the power dynamic that it used to be the employer kind of mandated. These are the terms you're in Monday to Friday, and we expect you to be there for whatever. And now employees are saying, no, thanks, I'm really keen on going to Florida. And that's what this looks like for me and for some industries and for some employers that I think has really created some fear. Are my people being productive? What are they doing when I can't see them? And so how do we change this mindset instead of, this is something that you must do to. Wow. We really need to empathetically listen to our employees and figure out how do we create this new thing that's, you know, better and different, but still great?

Well, it's a shifting balance, right? You know, FaceTime used to be a thing where we determine how. How hard you worked or how devoted you were to the company based on, you know, what time you showed up and what time you left. And yet stories abound of people, you know, who sat at their desks and did nothing. They just needed to have the FaceTime so that their boss saw that they were there, you know, because that was the metric of that company. So, you know, you have productive and unproductive people at work and not at work. You know, whether that. And so we just have to shift slightly that our ability not to see them. You know, we have to learn to trust, which is a hard one. One of the things that I find really interesting is I used to be. I've pulled back on, you know, I used to be like, I don't want you working on nights and I don't want you working on weekends. I want people to have their time because when we had a traditional 9 to 5 sort of mentality, I want people to let go of work and have personal time. I've actually pulled back from saying those things because now I don't know when people want to work. Maybe they want to wake up late or go to the gym in the morning and start working at 10 or 11, but then they'll work to 7 or 8 because they're happy to do that. And so now I think we have to learn to allow people to figure out their own schedules. Now the missing pieces is communication. What must happen for any employee who wants to have a schedule that is different or alternative to what the company's expectations are or what the standard is, is they have to communicate. Communication is different than making a demand or just sort of making an announcement, but rather like, hey, you know, I'm happy to work later. I really want to have my mornings to get my kids ready to go to school.

Would it be okay if I started work at 11 or 10, which means I just wouldn't. I wouldn't be on any meetings. Can we push meetings past 10 o' clock. And it's a discussion because the answer is, yeah, probably, you know, we almost all situations, there's a very, very comfortable agreement that everybody can be comfortable with. I think what both employees and employers get struck by is, is the demand and the announcement like you will do this. And that goes both ways. I think we just want to be heard and seen, as I said before. And, and, but communication has to happen. There has to be communication. Because like I said, I think I like, I think a lot of employees feel embarrassed to ask or afraid to ask. But if you have good leadership and somebody who cares about creating a positive working environment, they should be open to pretty much everything.

Yeah, I agree. I always say expectation management makes the world go round. It's like you, here's what you can expect from me and is that cool? Does that work for you? Or should we make a different, you know, contract, so to speak?

I always think about it and I always think about it like, like a personal relationship. Like you can't just come home to your, to your partner and say this is what I'm going to be doing. Like it doesn't work that way. Like even if it's legitimate and fair, they may get defensive. And so it's communication. You say, would it be okay if. Or I was thinking about, and you involve them and include them in the decision and you get exactly what you want. It's very similar. As you said, expectation management and effective communication are important in all relationships, personal and professional.

Absolutely. I mean you can try that route, but it doesn't tend to work over the long term. And candidly we've seen companies that have come out with a, this is how it's going to be. And seen myriad companies pull back from that and retrench and actually it's not going to be five or three, it's going to be more like, you tell us, what do you want? Which leads me to the next topic, which is recruitment and retention. So this, this shift in power, the rebalancing, the more engaged, you know, flexible, you know, way that, that folks are connecting now, it's really impacting the recruitment and retention of employees. And the, the job market is like I have never seen. You know, I got my little auto notification this morning. You know, in the US alone, over 10 million open jobs right now. And so it is very clear in today's labor market, it is a job seekers market. And so how should companies think about, you know, what are people looking for and how do we differentiate from the company down the street, especially in Such a dynamic time when we're all trying to figure out what that future looks like.

Well, I think we have to ask ourselves why, you know, why is the great resignation happening? You know, a commentary about people getting, you know, their government checks? Yes, that's a small percentage. That's not the majority. You know, somebody decides, you know what? This is not for me. I want to follow my dreams. Those are there, too. But I don't think that explains the mass. The mass exodus. I think one of the things we're not talking about, that this is very much an indictment against years and years and years of. Of substandard corporate culture, where for years and years and years, we, you know, companies have taken advantage of or mistreated frontline workers. They've paid them less because they could. Because they needed the money and they needed the job, and they could get away with it. Where corporate culture wasn't necessarily great. It was just fine. Like, how's your work? It's fine. Like, it's not toxic. Like, I'm getting yelled at every day. It's just fine. And, you know, would I like to quit? I would like to quit. But the unknown is way scarier than. Than the devil I know. And so we stayed put. And then Covid happened, and a lot of people got furloughed or laid off or even just had the fear of losing their jobs, and they made it through okay. And all of a sudden, the unknown became a lot less scary. And so faced with going to work to a place that I know doesn't see me as a human being, they just see me as a number to be calculated on a spreadsheet. And the unknown, I'll take the unknown. And so I think this is, as I said before, a huge indictment for decades of companies not focusing on strong corporate culture, quite frankly, and not seeing their people as people. And so this is a correction. We know stock market corrections happen when they're grossly unbalanced. Well, this is a correction in the labor market because it's been grossly unbalanced. So, you know, for those that underpay pay clearly is one of the things. But I think also, as you said before, like, when you join our company, we see you as a human being. We want to see you grow. We want to see you learn. We want to put you on a path to help you to achieve what you want to achieve. And whether you stay here for a short time or a long time, we want you to feel that the time you spent with us was worth it. And you're a better version of yourself because you were with us. And I think companies have no choice but to invest in their people, to invest in learning, in leadership. One of the things that I find astonishing is how little leadership education there is in companies. You know, we give people tons of training when they join the company to teach them the platforms and the products. And we give them tons of training when they're, we give them, you know, mentors and they can apprentice also that they can be good at their job. But as they make their way through the organization, we give them little to nothing. We don't teach people listening skills. We don't teach people how to give and receive feedback. We don't teach people how to have an effective confrontation or an uncomfortable conversation. You know, we don't teach those skills. They are just skills. And when you wait many, many years of not doing that, what you get is exactly the situation we're in now. It is worth noting that the companies with very strong corporate cultures who have been investing in these things are suffering a lot less. Yes, they're still having people leave to follow their dreams and those things, but those are positive. But the ones who are giving a certain finger as they're walking out the door and saying, I don't need this, those companies are suffering those situations a lot less because their people have gratitude.

I had a, I had a manager once who will chuckle if she is listening to this, who coined the phrase, she said, we have generations of managers that were raised by wolves which, to your point, haven't gone through the formal training and had the years of experience to really become excellent people. Managers who understand how to work collaboratively and treat their teams well and help help them grow and develop. And I think it makes a ton of sense that the day of reckoning for that is now upon us. And so it's interesting, I mean, to your point, you know, maybe some people did check out entirely and follow their dreams in a different path. But broadly, I've been calling this period the great reshuffle because yes, people are leaving companies, but they are joining companies on the other side. And, and I think lots of that. To your point, it is, you know, it is really shining a light on companies that perhaps haven't been great at, you know, treating their people well. But I'm curious your thoughts. You called it almost like a market correction. And when I think of those, I think, okay, there was a defined period of time you could track the stock market, see what was happening, and then you could see when recovery happens. And so are you thinking of this period of time of the great resignation, the great reshuffle as a point in time and a correction, or is this more of like a seismic systemic shift that you think is going to be enduring this, this power rebalance, you know, all of it.

So a system, a system corrects when it's out of balance, right? And so whether it's a stock market or a labor market. And so it's, it's woefully out of balance. And it doesn't go like this, it goes like that. And that's what we're experiencing. That's what we're in the middle of, which is it's a complete swing to the other side.

And usually what happens is we look at the ills that caused the imbalance in the first place. After the Great Depression, they passed the Glass Steagall act to prevent another Great Depression from happening. They put in all kinds of controls on our economy.

And it worked, by the way. And so what I think is important is for people to go back to the source. It's not to look at the symptom and treat the symptom because then we were not going to correct it. We'll just throw money at the situation, which is a short term correction. It'll fix the problem only in the short term, but it doesn't make people feel better when they come to work. I think we need to look back at how we have been operating. If you're a company that has gone through, is going through where you're losing labor and you can't get them back or you're losing teammates, I mean, the fact that we call people labor, you know, that should set up a red flag for us as well. The fact that we're losing teammates and they're not coming back, the. Let's look at a history of how we fought them. You know, when they asked for reasonable wages, did we fight them? When they asked to be seen and heard, did we put up barriers? Did we invest in their personal growth? Did we promote the toxic high performer into a leadership position and then they became a toxic leader and justified it because their performance was good? Or did we promote somebody who had good natural leadership positions, regardless of whether they were one of our top performers or not, they knew how to help others work at their best. Like we have to look at our promotion structures, we have to look at our incentive structures. Do we only incentivize people based on individual performance? Is that accidentally breeding behavior inside the company that we find obnoxious? Like where people are Stabbing each other in the back to get, to make themselves get ahead. Are we incentivizing teamwork? I think it is incumbent upon companies to really do a.

You know, what do you call it? Forensic dive.

Into the way they have been doing business to try and understand what people are emotionally reacting to and where they have the courage now to leave.

I think that's such good guidance. And certainly we see a fair amount of short term response that's, oh, it's, you know, summer Fridays and different things and all good ideas and I'm sure have merit. But to your point, really fixing the systems and shifting them towards positive, equitable approaches to all of these moments that matter to all of us in our careers is so important. It brings me to another which you touched on earlier.

Mental health and burnout. And increasingly companies will look at that and say, well, this is the thing. And there are all these other things that are longer term and take a while to actually correct and make better. But in the short term, you just hear so much about burnout. Or I know that I'm certain you read last year, Adam Grant wrote that great article about languishing and this notion that we're just stuck in the middle of it all. Whether you're a caregiver or whatever your personal situation is.

What is the way through this? What do you think? To not treat the symptom, throwing a Friday off at somebody that's enduring longer term burnout is probably not going to be the solution. What do you think about it all?

So one of the great things about COVID is that nobody, not a single person, was smart enough or strong enough to escape any kind of trauma from it.

Some people had it soon, some people had it later, some people had pieces of it. And it sort of continues to be a steady drip. Some people had an intense depression, but we all went through it. Which means, I hope that we have more understanding and empathy for the condition, you know, for mental health, that this is a real thing that people go through and sometimes they can't explain it. You know, I think very often we want to know what the reason, what the cause is like, you know, is it because, you know, you know, you have a sick family member, is it because you broke up with your boyfriend or girlfriend? Like, we're always looking for the cause and sometimes it's not, it's not there.

And I think it goes back to what we said before, and this is probably going to be a theme in, in all of these questions, which is, it goes back to empathy, which is, which Is it's, it's not for us to fix. It's us for whole. It's us for. It's for us to hold space. You know. You know, there's a very simple question for, for a leader, which is, are you okay? And this is something we have to do whether we think someone's okay, whether we think somebody's not okay. A lot of people can mask how they're actually feeling. They double down on work to compensate, you know, so just because somebody's productive and their performance is up doesn't mean they're, they're not struggling. And so I, you know, to create a space where you can say, are you okay? And actually care about the answer is a huge test for leadership. And by the way, the best way to achieve that is for the leaders to lead by example. And that's very scary for, for a lot of people in leadership positions. We talk about vulnerability, but the reality is if they're not modeling the behavior, other people won't follow it. You know, if we say, you know, we want to know how you, how you feel, but I'm always in tip top shape and I'm always have all the answers and I'm always strong, well, then I can guarantee you that creates an environment in which people actually are afraid to be honest. And so it's, it's necessary for people in leadership positions, whether it's on a huddle or some other forum or maybe, you know, to a few people and say, hey, listen, I'm struggling this week and I just want, I want to apologize and say, please be patient with me. You know, I'm probably, I know I'm not at my best. I think I might actually take a Friday off because I'm having a hard time this week and I'm not sure what it is, but I know that I'm not myself. For a leader to be able to say that creates an environment for somebody on the team to come and say the same thing and then we can hold space with them. But if the leader is lying, hiding, and faking every day, then all we're doing is creating an environment where our people will lie, hiding, fake every day. And so, you know, I think this idea of leading with vulnerability, of, and vulnerability doesn't mean you're, you know, that doesn't mean you're weak. You know, all it means is you're willing to say something that makes you like, admit a mistake, ask for help, say you don't understand something, or admit struggle. That's all it is. That's all it is with the confidence that people will be there to hold space for you and support you. And if the leader is willing to do that, it's remarkable what we can create around us for the people who work there.

I want to unpack this notion of leadership. We have seen a rapid acceleration in the expectations of being a great leader. It's not enough anymore to direct the work, to hold people accountable, to give feedback. Check, check, check, check. Leaders in the last two years have been called upon to do things they never did before. Whether it's. Whether it's the vulnerability you talk about and really inviting people into your world to help them understand how you're coping and how you're working through things, but leading with empathy, checking in on folks, mental health and wellness, understanding. Do they have a sick parent they're looking after? How do I help you balance some of these things that well and truly go beyond the confines of what traditional work relationships were? Now that work is like, hi, I'm speaking to you from my dining room right now. Right. It's a very different world that we're all in. And so what do you think about modern leadership? And, and is that sort of whole person empathetic leadership is, Is that where we will be or do you see some retrenchment where folks are like, hey, I actually would like some separation between work and home and let me just do my thing, and I don't want to talk to you about what's going on with grandma or whatever it may.

Be, you know, the answer is there's no one size fits all, you know, and when we create a corporate culture that leads with empathy and where people are put at the center rather than performances put in the center, you know, some people, you know, leaders have bad habits, but sometimes teammates have bad habits. You know, I've been doing this for 20 years. Leave me alone. I don't want to tell you my feelings. You know, and we can't expect everybody to change in this at the same time. It's like if we all go to the gym at the same time, we won't all get in shape at the same time. You know, we're different. And so part of a journey, part of a leadership journey for, for people in leadership positions is patience and the willingness to hold space for them, even when they're resistant, because we know it's good for them, even if they don't know it's good for them. And, and that's okay. And sometimes.

It just. Again, I think one of the things that's drastically missing here is that leadership is a skill. And the best leaders are students of leadership. All the best leaders I've ever met, the ones who literally, what they've accomplished, what they've done, the love and loyalty that they command, they do have the sort of the credibility to say, I think I know what I'm doing. They don't. They read articles, they read books, they watch talks. They have conversations about it constantly. It's like there's no such thing as a perfect parent. Parents are constantly talking to other parents and reading books about little things that happen that they're trying to be better parents and things that happen that they didn't expect. Well, leadership's the same. It is a constant education. And the best leaders are constantly learning. They should be doing it by themselves. They should be doing it informally. Forming a book club, for example. I'm a huge fan of book clubs for companies that say, well, we can't afford a leadership curriculum. Like you can afford a book, you know, and have book clubs. Just voluntary, you know, people who volunteer to come and discuss a few chapters every few weeks, but also for companies to now provide that training. And I and I listed some of the things before, you know, which is, we cannot expect that people know how to lead if we don't teach them how to lead. Like, we can't expect somebody to know how to do anything if we don't teach them how to do anything, you know, and how long does it take for a kid to walk? Like, you know, we know there's a process and you follow the process. And some kids walk early and some kids walk a little later, but we know 100% of people will learn to walk. You know, it's like, it's just a process. The same. Everybody can learn how to lead. Doesn't all happen at the same time. But we have to teach. We have to provide forum for discussion. And whether we like it or not, it happens in the company. We would love it to happen in high school. We would love it to happen in universities or MBAs. And it didn't. The college systems are terrible, absolutely abysmal at teaching leadership. They teach management. Maybe there's a leadership class with one. Okay, leadership professor. And so the responsibility falls on the company, whether you like it or not.

Yeah, that's such a good point. And leadership, like all other things, is trial and error, and there is no one size fits all. But I think folks that are in positions of leadership right now are really grappling with, how do I do this in the context of everything that we're dealing with right now. Something else going back to the burnout topic. When we think globally, the trends and the market correction in the space of, of work is definitely upon us. We see broadly in Europe a lot of these right to disconnect laws even here. I'm based in California, I believe you are today as well. You know, there's some legislation that's being proposed about a four day work week. Whether it passes or not, you know, unlikely. But we're seeing now governments stepping in and saying, wow, we have an issue here and it's time to do something about it. Do you see that as a solve putting these mandates? Because I'm reflecting on what you said earlier. It's like you may have someone on your team that's hey, I go to the gym at 10am and that's my happy place. I'm equally happy to be online at 8pm and so do you see these government corrections being part of the answer here?

You know, usually when government involves, it gets involved, they're considering one side and not the other. And they usually over or under legislate. You know, it's, and it's either, you know, government never gets it right, it's over here or it's over here. He's going to piss off somebody, you know, and I think like, so let's just game out the four hour work week. Okay, so there's, there's a movement for a four hour work week in California. And if government legislates will create a bunch of unforeseen problems for like customer service things or you know, where you have to react to things, I mean, who knows? I can guarantee you they haven't thought of everybody consideration. But what it does say is that companies need to start asking themselves, should we be considering a four hour work week? And how does a four hour work week work for us? Because the government won't get it right. But, but we may be interested in this. And so I think when these things show up in legislation, what it says, it's on people's mind and people are asking the questions. And I think it's, I think instead of knee jerking and just fighting against these things, I think companies need to, you know, leadership needs to sit down and say, should we have a four hour work week? How would that look for us? How would it work for us? Would it work for our kind of business? What if we can only give it, you know, what if it works really well for some people, but not all the people, Then how do we make sure everybody, you know, it creates a lot of questions that I think we have to go through the process of trying to figure it out. And if the answer is, you know, we could do something again, involve the people, are you interested? Which then raises a whole new question which I think is also.

Something that's showing up in distributed workforces is what does a full time job mean and.

Older? And when I say older, I mean in age. Leaders are really struggling to understand that if you're a full time employee and I'm giving you insurance, then you're not allowed to do anything else.

But we don't know that because we know that in the past if you work from nine to five, you can do whatever you want, your nights and weekends, you can have 15 jobs if you want, as long as you're working nights and weekends. But if it's not 9 to 5 anymore, how does that look? Can you have two full time jobs? Is that wrong? And a lot of young people cannot distinguish. They're saying, you say I can do my work whenever I want, I work from home, you have no problems with my performance. What do you care when I work and where I work? So what if you're giving me insurance? Thank you very much, I do good work for you. And I can guarantee you that young people are having these conversations and they are not encumbered by sort of traditional way of working and they have much more of a blank sheet of paper. Now I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm saying that it's best to have these discussions yourself because if you're not having the discussion yourself, then the hammer of legislation will probably come down and solve a few problems and create a bunch more.

I believe legislation happens and should happen when there's massive resistance and there is something that needs to happen and for whatever reason, companies dig in and refuse to do it. I can give you plenty of examples of great versions of legislation, but I think when it comes to regulating what a workday looks like, I think companies need to start having serious conversations and start reimagining again. As I said at the very beginning of this, which is, which is it's all in flux, everything is in the air and there is no certainty. Right now nobody knows what the future of work is going to look like. None of us. It's like everything's being tossed up and everybody's looking up wondering, well, we can be a company that just waits, where is it going to land? Or we can be a company that's actually pioneering and innovating what the future works, could and should look like. And by the way, we're doing it with our people. We're not doing it by dictatorship, like this is what's going to happen, but rather we're working with our people and we're all figuring out what works and what actually makes for a really great place to work where you can actually be really productive and do really well as a company as well, where we can all take pride that we are reinventing what the future of work looks like together. And I'd rather it happen at a company level than at a government level.

Yeah, I agree. And by the way, thank you for validating the world in which I live, which is complete uncertainty. Nobody has the answer, and we're all trying to figure it out. I feel very seen in this moment.

And to that end, I'm actually reflecting back. I remember everybody wants you to tell.

Them what it's going to be, right?

Yeah, yeah. Like, please give us the playbook. I don't know when it came out, but it feels like it has to have been like almost 10 years ago. There were all of these predictions about what the future of work was going to be. And I remember there being so much talk about the gig economy. And, you know, as it started Uber and, you know, delivery services started coming online and that became more of a reality. It was like, oh, you can have this side hustle and the day job, but no one in like corporate world imagined a gig economy where you would have your software developer who also worked for, ideally not a competitor, but another of those types of enterprises. And we've seen these articles of people having two jobs during this period of time. Now, personally, I'm a little more tenured and I can't imagine having a second job or a side hustle. But. But for folks earlier in career, it's definitely something they're thinking about. So I think it's just really interesting to hear you talk about the recontracting. You didn't use that word. That's my application. But of what work looks like and what is okay in the confines of what we expect of you. And are you a free agent? Other than that? I mean, it is. It's a. It's a brave new world out there.

And the answer is there's advantages and disadvantages. And I think where it becomes dangerous and insidious is. Is when there's a lack of communication, when people are lying, hiding and faking, you know where. And the answer is there's advantages and disadvantages. And I think where it becomes dangerous and insidious is when there's a lack of communication, when people are lying, hiding and faking.

Where a team member goes off and moonlights, but they're moonlighting, when there's an expectation that they're going to show up to do certain things for one company, for, let's call them their primary employer.

And it's that it's the lying, hiding and faking and think that you can get away with two things simultaneously because poor performance will suffer and people will start asking questions and it'll start with, are you okay? But I can guarantee you, you can't keep these things secret. We live in an online world. It's all going to show up online.

You know, and I think to simply raise your hand and say, I have an opportunity. It's not a, you know, it's not a direct competition, but I want to talk to you if this is, if this is realistic. You know, can you help me try and figure this out? Because it's something I would like to do. And it's, it's really about communication and people are afraid of communication. And this opens up an entirely new conversation about a young generation that's coming to work. And I think one of the things that if we do not address it now, it'll only create problems for both the team member and the employer and the company, which is, it's a generation that's actually very uncomfortable with confrontation, right? And, you know, disproportionately high number of young people who break up with somebody who they've been dating for four or five months by ghosting them, you know, or they. Confrontation, right? And, you know, disproportionately high number of, of young people who break up with somebody who they've been dating for four or five months by ghosting them, you know, or they'd rather, they'd rather have difficult conversations over text rather than in person. If you're in a relationship and you're fighting, right? And, or leaving alternative voice memos at each other rather than, rather, they'd rather have difficult conversations over text rather than in person. If you're in a relationship and you're fighting having a conversation. And so one of the things that we're, we're seeing is like, I'll give you real life example that I've heard of a few times, you know, somebody quits in sometimes dramatic fashion and sends an angry email that you, you don't appreciate me, you don't pay me enough. Never occurred to them to simply Call up their boss and say, hey, I'd like a raise, please. You know, and that the choice between having an uncomfortable conversation or making that request in a constructive way is so uncomfortable that they choose quitting.

And I've seen this happen a lot. And so I think it becomes important to us that if we aren't teaching these skills of how to have uncomfortable conversations, how to speak up for yourself, how to talk about creating an arrangement that may be different from what my boss is used to, from the 20 years that they've been working and how we can work together to fashion the future of work if we don't actually start teaching those skills and having those conversations, that what we're going to end up with is people just quitting not because it's a bad corporate environment. It's because they don't know how to have a conversation, to talk about something that's uncomfortable, difficult, or make a request. I mean, you and I are old enough that, you know, if we go back now, if you go back to, like, it's really funny, if you go back to like the 50s or 60s, you never. Right And. Or leaving alternative voice memos at each other rather than having a conversation. And so one of the things that we're seeing is like, I'll give you a real life example that I've heard of a few times, you know, somebody quits in sometimes dramatic fashion, asked for a raise, but you didn't quit either. You just remained unhappy, Right? And then we reach a time period where, no, no, no, no, no, I'm asking for the raise. You know, I refuse to remain unhappy. But we're now in a period where.

I'm not going to ask for the raise and I'm not going to remain unhappy. I'm just going to leave.

I'm just going to ghost.

I'm just going to go. Which if, you know, which. Again, it's an employee market right now. And so in the short term, yeah, you'll probably land another job and you'll be okay. That again, it's gonna find a balance. Everything we're living in is short term, even if short term is the next few years. And I think if we're talking about helping people grow and become better versions of themselves forever, then I think the skills that we teach won't only benefit them at work, it benefits them at home. In other words, that young person that we teach how to have a difficult conversation and how to have an effective confrontation so they can ask for a raise and probably get it if they're if they're good, that skill set comes home, too, where I learn how to have a conversation with my partner in something uncomfortable fashion and sends an angry email that you, you don't appreciate me, you don't pay me enough. Never. You know, that conversation that that skill set goes to the way I treat my children and treat my friends. So we're making better human beings here. It just so happens that it benefits the company as well.

Absolutely.

But we got to teach the skills. We got to teach the skills.

We have a lot of work to do. This brings me to another topic. You released a book recently, which I promised you we wouldn't talk about, but the Infinite Game. And you talk about this concept of trusting teams and this creating an environment where people can work at their natural best, can have these open conversations. Hopefully we've taught them the skill of how to ask for that which they would like to have happen. But what is it? What does it look like for people to be working at their natural best? And how can employers create this environment?

So one of my favorite definitions of what a trusting team looks like, and I think it's occurred to them to simply call up their boss and say, hey, I'd like a raise, please. You know, and that the choice between having an uncomfortable conversation or making that request in a construct, the story I tell in the book, it's, I went on a business trip to Las Vegas, and they. Back when we had business trips and.

And they were very nice. They put out of way, is so uncomfortable that they choose quitting.

Yeah. But the Four Seasons in Las Vegas, which is a beautiful hotel, and the reason it's a beautiful hotel is not because of the fancy beds. Any hotel can buy a fancy bed. It's because the people who work there that when you walk the halls and somebody says hello, you get the distinct feeling that they wanted to say hello, not that they were told to say hello. We're highly attuned social animals. We can tell the difference. Anyway, they happened to have a coffee bar in the lobby. And I remember one afternoon I went and bought a cup of coffee, you know, and the barista working that day was a kid named Noah. And Noah was funny and charming and engaging. And I stood there for far too long talking to Noah because I just so enjoyed talking to him. And I remember I asked him, you know, do you like your job? And without skipping a beat, Noah said, I love my job. Now, in my line of work, that's significant. Like, is rational. I like the people. I like the challenge. You know, I Get paid well. I like my job. Love is emotional. It's a higher order connection. And I've seen this happen a lot. And so I think it becomes important to us that if we aren't teaching, like, you know, do you love your wife? I like her a lot. Right. It's a. It's a different. It's a different. It's a different thing. He said, I love my. I love my job. So of course my ears perked up and I followed up and I said, can you tell me specifically what the Four Seasons is doing that you would say to me, you love your job? And again, he didn't have to think. He said, yeah, absolutely. He says, throughout the day, managers will walk in these skills of how to have uncomfortable conversations, how to speak up for yourself, how to talk about creating an arrangement that may be different from what my boss is used to, from the 20 years that they've been past me and check in on me, ask me how I'm doing, ask me if there's anything else that I need to do my job better. He said, not just my manager, any manager. And then he said, I also work for another hotel. And there the managers walk past us and catch us when we're doing things wrong. There they are driving performance and want us to just make the numbers. He says, there, I like to keep my head below the radar and just get through the day and collect my paycheck. Only at the Four Seasons, he said, do I feel I can be myself. Now, if you think about it, this is the exact same human being working at two different companies. And yet our experience of him will be profoundly different and his performance will be profoundly different, not because of the person, but because the leadership environment in which he's working and the networking and how we can work together to fashion the future of work if we don't actually start teaching. Number of times we blame the person, right? I get this question all the time, you know, how do I get the most out of my people? People aren't a towel. You don't wring them out. The better question is, how do I create an environment in which my people can work at their natural best? And that's what the Four Seasons has learned to do. And so it's the exact same person. I find that profound that usually if we have bad customer service, sometimes it is the person, without a doubt. But it's amazing that if there's a company that's plagued with substandard performance or substandard customer service or short term performance, or they can't keep hold of employees. It's almost rarely, it's almost never the people and almost always the leadership environment. And so that's how we create trusting teams.

There's so much in that. I mean, one tangent is, my gosh, how do we replicate that? Catching them at their best, that asking how we can make the environment better. How do you do that in a virtual world? Certainly there's surveys, there's actual conversations you can have, but that in the moment, feedback that helps people. And the. Not my manager, but maybe a manager over here who observed me doing a thing. Like, there's so much to that of how do you replicate that?

And not just leadership peers, right. Companies that have robust peer recognition. People feel people will work much harder for peer recognition than the recognition of their boss. Right. Remember, most systems are set up that you only have to please one person to advance your career. That's pretty much it. Right. But companies that have robust peer recognition programs, our real sense of belonging and willingness to sacrifice actually is more likely to happen from the group. So there's little things and big things. So little things. Again, we do this little things high five on every meeting. We say, remember, high fives can happen at any time. Right. And so anytime, at any point, at any time, it just randomly happens in random meetings, somebody says, I need to give a high five to Christy. Christy, you were. You stayed up late with me the other night as I was struggling to get this thing. And I just want to say thank you. And it's done in a public forum, right? It's done in a public forum where I am, I am expressing gratitude to you. And it feels good, but it feels good to everybody else. And they want to work to that standard as well. There's more robust things. I've seen that other. Those skills and having those conversations that what we're going to end up with is people just quitting because. Not because it's a bad corporate environment, it's because they don't know how to have a conversation, to talk about something that's uncomfortable, difficult, or make a request. I mean, you and I are old enough that, you know, if we go back now, if you go back to, like, it's really funny. If you go back to, like the 50s or 60s, you never. Companies do where they send out that time of year. They say which person on the team best represents, best exemplifies our values. This is not about performance that you want to be more like. And people submit essays, nominating their peers, and then a group of volunteers reads through all the essays and then goes and interviews all the nominees and then culls through it and makes a decision as to who best represents our values. And they have an event to announce it, and they'll read the letters, they'll read the essay submissions, and there's always tears. And again, pre Covid, what these companies would do is they would fly the parents of the. Of the winner to come in, and they keep them hidden. And when the winner was announced, they walk the parents in because they want the parents to see the kind of child they raised. And that's. It's rarely the highest individual performer, but this is somebody we all want to be more like. Ever asked for a raise, but you didn't quit either. You just remained unhappy, right? And then. And it makes us. And nobody, you know, when somebody gets a promotion or a raise, like, there's, like, they don't deserve it. I deserve it. In these cases, no one's angry. We're all so grateful to this person, and we want to be more like them. So I think. I think pure recognition.

Like I said, you can do it simply, you can do it complicated. But having a robust form of peer recognition is a great way to build that sense of belonging and desire to contribute, even in a virtual world.

I love it. So many great ideas. And I would love to stay on this theme.

Because we're going to shift sections now. What gives you hope for the future we are in?

We reach a time period where, no, no, no, no, no. I'm asking for the raise. You know, I refuse to remain unhappy. But we're now in a period where.

I'm not going to ask for the raise and I'm not going to remain unhappy. I'm just going to leave.

I'm just going to ghost.

I'm just going to go. Which, if you know, which 52 card.

Pickup land right now with, what work is going to look like, redefining relationships, loyalty, connection. There's creating trust, creating these amazing environments that celebrate and uphold people's successes. What gives you hope and optimism for the future?

You know.

Like life. It's a bumpy road. You know, this is a bumpy road. And, you know, when Covid first struck, I sort of. I smirked. You know, all the talking heads that said, you know, in these uncertain times, I'm like, hold on. All times are uncertain. There's never been a time in history that was ever certain. Every day is uncertain. All that happened is we went through a period of calm and that lulled you into a false sense of security. That there was certainty, but there never has been and there never will be.

And so what gives me hope on this bumpy road is that we're rejecting Jack Welch, Milton Friedman ideas of what capitalism should look like. We're rejecting and asking questions about shareholder supremacy. We're talking about.

That shareholders don't come first. You have Larry Fink writing letters about the importance of purpose. You know, I mean, look, I wouldn't have had a career in the 80s and 90s, are you kidding? Talking about why and purpose. I would have been laughed out of purpose and like hippie dippy stuff, you know. You know, I joke that, you know, it's embarrassing that I have a career. You know, there should be no demand. I talk about trust and cooperation. There should be no demand. But the fact that there is, and people want to talk about this and learn about this, the fact that it's a public conversation, we've talked about some very mushy, gooey things that are perfectly acceptable conversations. In fact, they have to be had in a work environment. And so I think a rejection of the 80s and 90s form of capitalism where we over indexed on rugged individualism and shareholder supremacy and profit before people and profit before purpose.

Gives me hope that even though it's a bumpy road and we haven't figured out what it'll look like, I think we're trending in the right direction and we're having those conversations. And the companies that are doing that are the companies that we're highlighting and wanting to work for. So I'm very optimistic.

So many powerful insights. We have a couple of audience questions for you that will just go through rapid fire. What is the biggest thing that you've learned while working remotely?

Oh, great question. For me, the real one of the huge insights is that we can have multiple feelings at the same time.

So, you know, when Covid first started, I was in a period of massive pivoting and reinvention, like so many.

And as a creative person, you know, chaos is my happy place. I can't be there sustainably the whole time, but in moments of chaos, there is massive creativity. And so I was embarrassed because I was having fun.

And yet around me was death and destruction and bankruptcy. And I was very torn, like I can't be enjoying myself. I have to feel sadness and guilt. And as I went through my own depression, as I went through my own dark days during COVID.

Could I not be optimistic? And one of the huge things I learned as a human being is we actually can have simultaneous feelings. We can have feelings at the same time that are apparent opposite. I can be sad and excited at the same time. I can be depressed and optimistic at the same time. And so that's really helped me that I can have any feeling that I feel in the moment that I'm feeling it, even if they seem like they're opposite. And I don't have to have an additional feeling like guilt because I rationally shouldn't have that feeling or at least the story I have in my head. So again, it's an employee market right now.

And so in the short term, yeah, you'll probably land another job and you'll be okay. That again, it's going to find a balance. Everything we're living in is short term, even if short term is the next few years. And I think if we're talking about helping people grow and become better versions of themselves forever, then I think the skills that we teach won't only benefit them at work, it benefits them at home. In other words, that young person that we teach how to have a difficult conversation and how to have that's been really helpful to me, not only at work work, but it's been really helpful to me in my personal life as well just to have all the feels whenever they happen.

Oh my gosh, so much self awareness in that answer.

So you touched on we got to know you in your start with why.

And so effective confrontation so they can ask for a raise and probably get it if they're if they're good.

A question that we have for you. Would you modify your start with why philosophy if you were to write a new book that reflects the most recent issues the pandemic has imposed on society and business today.

The simple answer is, you know, I believe in the scientific method. I believe in developing theories and when I first articulated the concept of the golden circle and start with why it was a theory and I set out to test it with looking for opportunities for it to fail. So I kept I tried it in every I tried it in government, I tried it in big business, small business, B2B B2C. I tried every place that skill set comes home too, where I learn how to have a conversation with my partner in something uncomfortable. I could go wanting it to fail so I could so I could improve upon it. And so I love it when there's chaos and things because I get to test.

And I'm proud to say that the theory holds up and if I were to go back and rewrite the book, I might change a couple of the case studies because they're just a little dated. I change a little bit of the language because it's a little dated. But fundamentally, I can say with great pride that the theory holds up and it continues to serve me personally. I continue to start with why and lead with why to this very day. You know, that skillset goes to the way I treat my children and treat my friends. So we're making better human beings here. It just so happens that it benefits the company as well.

I love it along those veins. Another question. How do you reverse engineer for a strong why or collective goal?

Okay, there's two very different things. So you don't reverse engineer a why, a why. Discovery is objective. You have as an individual, you have only one for your entire life.

Absolutely.

But we got to teach the skills. We got to teach the skills.

We have a lot of work to do.

Life. And you cannot change it. And as a company, you're supposed to have only one, although you can break it.

But it always comes from the past. You know, companies were started by founders, a person or small group of people that had a vision for something and were driven by something, and they took an overwhelming risk of failure to do something. You know, remember, most new businesses fail within the first three years. And yet somebody thought that those odds were worth it. And it's that drive. And so a why is objective. It's about going back to the past and asking where we come from and then building upon that foundation. If you want, you know, an extreme example, the United States has a founding story, it's the Declaration of Independence where we announced why we need it to exist that all men are created equal or people created equal, endowed with these unalienable rights. And we've changed the manner in which we've gone about it, and we've tried to get better at it. And we know that it's a vision and it's an ideal. But in nearly 250 years, it hasn't changed. It still remains where we come from. And the same is true for a company. The same is true for a person. We are the sum total of how we were raised by our parents and the experiences we had when we were young that formed us into who we are. And though we can act differently, there's no changing fundamentally who we are.

I'm curious, how has the Great Resignation been different across Asia or Europe? Have you seen any different trends or patterns?

It's showing up in all kinds of places. You have the lie down movement in Asia. And so I think people are asking questions. I mean, remember in terms of work, so goes America, so goes the world. Because America's economy was so large and because this country was so rich, a lot of nations, especially developing economies copied how America did things. And so through the 80s and 90s and sort of Jack Welch sort of theories of leadership, the rest of the world.

This brings me to another topic. You released a book recently which I promised you we wouldn't talk about, but the Infinite Game. And you talk about this kind concept of trusting teams and this creating an environment where people can work at their natural best, can have these open conversations. Hopefully we've taught them the skill of how to ask for that which they would like to have happen. But what does it look like followed?

And now that sort of America is tipping in the other direction. There's a correction. I would expect that those that followed our theories are going to tip the same way. So it's showing up around the world. It is a universal, it's showing up in different ways, but it's there. It's definitely there.

The next question we have is about innovation. Innovation has an inherent financial and operational risk because failure is its most common prequel in a risk averse organization. How do you promote investment in innovation when a positive outcome is not guaranteed?

Well, I mean asked and answered, you don't. You know, I remember talking to a company, I was talking to the CFO and I asked him what his priorities are and he said my priorities are innovation and inefficiency. And I went well, good luck with that. You know, innovation is inherently inefficient because you try and fail, you try again and it's, and you know, if you.

Have to, for people to be working at their natural best and how can employers create this environment?

So one of my favorite definitions of what a trusting team looks like and I think it's have a performance guarantee and you have to demonstrate results of any investment, you know, every single time in the first year. Then the simple answer is you're not an innovative company. You know, you're putting lipstick on pigs, you're making a screen bigger and adding more memory, but you're not profoundly changing anything. And you will always be a follower, not a leader. So you know, to ask me to reconcile how you do it in that environment, the answer is you. The story I tell in the book, it's I went on a business trip to Las Vegas and they, you, you have to have a profoundly different tolerance for risk for to have innovation. Now that doesn't mean you have to shift the entire company the way to do it is entrepreneurially, which is where big, more risk averse companies can still innovate. Or not even just big ones. Risk averse companies can still innovate is you create entrepreneurial ventures where you put somebody who, if they succeed, they're going to make their career. And if they fail, they might break their career, but they like those odds.

And you take them outside of the, you take them outside of the standard hierarchy, they report only to the CEO who gives them, you know, and if there's inefficiencies, like if they hire somebody, we already have somebody for that. They want to hire a different supplier. But we were. You leave them be. They manage their own budget, they do whatever they want and you treat it as if it's its own thing. Then, then, then you can have innovation that way. But it's ostensibly an entrepreneurial venture within the site. Within, within the company. But yeah, no, you. The answer is you don't.

Okay, we're going to do some rapid fire. What was your first job?

My first job, I worked in advertising. I worked as a competitive analyst in a large agency.

Okay, what is not on your LinkedIn profile?

I don't know.

It's just like, you know, are you like a fantastic spaghetti maker?

Oh, I. Oh, okay. You know, I make really great salmon. I can make salmon like five ways. I love cooking fish.

Okay, that's your party trick. That's what you bring to the table.

If anybody wants salmon, I'm your man.

Do you have a great book recommendation for us?

So James Carson, who wrote Finite and Infinite Games, before he died, I had the opportunity to spend some time with him and he wrote many, many books. And I asked him, what's the best book you ever wrote? You know, I wanted to know. And I thought he was going to say Finite and Infinite Games because it's so freaking brilliant in its concept.

But he said the best book he ever wrote was.

A religious case against belief. And I started reading it just out of curiosity because, you know, one of these people that I Love and admire, Dr. Cars, this is his favorite book that he wrote. And I, like, I got through the first five pages and I had to go back and reread it again because it was so dense and made my head hurt. And so if you like things that make your head hurt and you want. And if you like having your, your assumptions challenged and you like sort of philosophical rabbit holes.

It'S very interesting.

I now know what I'm getting for my father for his birthday this year. Thank you so much, Simon. Thank you so much for the time, for the insight, for your perspective. You are so.

You are such a leading mind in this space. And I think in the, you know, in the course of this time, I felt all the feels. They were mushy, gushy. I didn't feel at all hippie dippy. And I felt very validated and hopefully the same for our audience as well. So thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. It was a pleasure to talk to you today.

Thanks so much for having me. And I'm really glad you ordered all the feels. Take care of yourself and take care of each other. Back when we had business trips and.

They were very nice, they put me up at the Four Seasons in Las Vegas, which is a beautiful hotel. And the reason it's a beautiful hotel is not because of the fancy beds. Any hotel can buy a fancy bed. It's because the people who work there that when you walk the halls and somebody says hello, you get the distinct feeling that they wanted to say hello, not that they were told to say hello. We're highly attuned social animals. We can tell the difference. Anyway, they happened to have a coffee bar in the lobby. And I remember one afternoon I went and bought a cup of coffee, you know, and the barista working that day was a kid named Noah. And Noah was funny and charming and engaging. And I stood there for far too long talking to Noah because I just so enjoyed talking to him. And I remember I asked him, you know.