What Happens When You Stop Optimizing and Start Committing | Former LA Lakers President Tim Harris

When you have these kind of positions like I have with the Lakers is you're around these like amazing human beings. You're around people like Phil Jackson. And here's the one thing that great leaders, great coaches, it's human first. Phil Jackson, he cared about the human being. Yeah. You have to love them in order to win. You don't need to win in order to be loved.

You have to love them in order to win. You don't need to win in order to be loved. That is— that is about as good as it gets. Most of us have had more than one job, probably even more than a few. We pivot, we hustle, we optimize. Why? Because we live in a world where loyalty to one company, quite frankly, has become a relic of the past and flexibility has become a professional necessity. But this need for constant reinvention, it can be lonely. And it's definitely stressful and hard work. So what can we learn from someone who chose to stay in one job and learn to build a culture where others wanted to stay too? That's why I asked Tim Harris to come on the show. He spent 35 years with the LA Lakers, where he rose to become the president of business operations and where he oversaw one of the most dominant dynasties in NBA history. He was there for Kobe, for LeBron, for championships. And in that time, he learned something that has become increasingly rare: what it takes to build something worth sticking around for. Tim proves that the most powerful brands are built through thousands of small, genuine human moments. And the leaders who get that do more than lead people, they inspire them to stay. If you like this episode, please remember to subscribe. This is A Bit of Optimism. No joke, I've been looking forward to this conversation more than anybody else on the roster, and mainly because you are charming, wonderful, and tell amazing stories. And the day I met you, I was like, oh, more of this please.

Wow, that's so kind. That, that is amazing. I need to make sure I send my friendship these over.

No, it's 100% true. Let's start from the beginning, I guess. Okay. You have basically had one job in your life, right?

Basically. Basically.

Which was with the LA Lakers for a long time.

Well, yeah. So I guess technically I started initially at the Forum where the Lakers played, and then I trans— so I was working on the Lakers, more of an emphasis on the building, and then I moved over to the Lakers mid-'90s, but essentially same company since 1990. I worked from '90 until 2 months ago.

It's a rare thing for people to have one job for such a long— for such a long time.

I don't think you— it's, it's super rare. I don't think you see it. Yeah, very often.

I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's a bygone era.

Yes. Yeah.

I mean, it's giving, giving your life to a company.

Well, yeah, it's a throwback to sort of my father, right? It's a throwback to Aerospace, you know, start, move up, gold watch, move on.

Right. Funny you say that. You know, I talk about the gold watch and there's an entire generation who, when we say the gold watch, they have no idea what we're talking about. And I've tested it. I've said, hey, how many of you know? Wow. So we know what the gold watch is. Yes. You work for however many years, decades for one company, and upon your retirement, they give you a gold watch.

That's what you got.

That's what you got. That was sort of like the thing. Yeah. There's an entire generation that has no idea what the gold watch is, what the euphemism is, and the thought of giving your entire life to one company is sort of like horrendous.

Doesn't that go back my dad's time? Doesn't that go back be— you did that because then you got your pension.

I'm sure there were multiple things that went into it. Yeah, pensions obviously are part of it. I don't think all companies had pensions, but they were definitely more common back then. But I also think that it was a time before mass layoffs and before quarterly earnings. And before shareholder supremacy, right, where everybody was trying to build a good company for the long term and make the best products they could. And the general business philosophies were, we'll take care of our people, more people, our people take care of us, right? And so there was no reason to bail on a regular basis because you were safe.

Correct.

Correct. I'm very curious. I actually don't know this. I know that you played soccer.

Yes, I did.

And were you planning on going pro? Is that what you were thinking, what you wanted to do? Did you want to be an athlete?

I did. And I did. And I did. And that's how it ended up. I went to UCLA, okay? And when I was coming out of UCLA, there were, there were two soccer leagues in the US. One was the North American Soccer League, was the NASL, and that was the league that had Pelé.

Old Pelé.

The old Pelé.

But like actually old Pelé.

Yes, right. With the Cosmos, right?

Yeah.

And that league was at the time I got drafted, That league was struggling. Yeah. The other league that was sort of propping up soccer in the early mid-'80s was the Major Indoor Soccer League. And the whole idea was you play this sort of, you know, version of soccer in an arena. And the idea at the time was to fill dates in an arena. And at the time in '84, It was on fire in some cities. The MISL was outdrawing the NBA team. Wow. It was on fire. I got drafted in both leagues, right? I got drafted in the NASL and I got drafted by— in the MISL.

Right.

And I really wanted to play in the outdoor version, but I— it wasn't long for it. I said, okay, if I'm going to continue this, I'll just do the indoor version. And I got drafted by the team that was owned by Dr. Buss, who owned the Lakers and played at the Forum. Okay.

Yeah, I'm seeing where this is going.

Dr. Buss was a huge fan of it, and he would visit the locker room. And this is '84, '85, Showtime. The Lakers are on fire. And so when Dr. Buss came in the locker room, and that's a big celebrity coming to the locker room, and I remember this one time he would make his rounds and say hello. And I said, Dr. Buss, how many people did we have here tonight? And like, like he would know. I mean, he's the owner of the Lakers. He doesn't know how many the indoor soccer team drew.

Right.

I'm sure he just pulled a number out of somewhere. And I said, do we make money?

You're a player.

I'm a player. And I said, do you know? I'm like this kid, right? I said, do we make money?

Yeah.

And I don't remember his answer.

Right.

But he went back to his daughter, Jeanie. Hey, there's this kid on the soccer team who's got an interesting curiosity about the business. And that's how I established a relationship with the Forum and the Buss family. And then when Jeanie, who at the time was running— she was doing tennis and volleyball exhibitions, she was in need of someone who could help sell sponsorships. And her father said, what about that kid? Right. And so that's how I started at the Forum, is selling tennis and volleyball sponsorships for exhibitions. And I didn't know anything except just sort of— I had kind of a gift of gab and I could work hard. And that's how I started.

I love it. And then all the way up to the president of the Lakers. Yeah. You know, you and I met just socially. You know, we just met for lunch for no reason whatsoever. Correct. You really have been on a leadership journey. Who modeled leadership for you? Like, where did you learn it? Where did you get it? Was it a coach? Was it a parent? Did it come at work? Like, because you, you are one of those leaders that I get to write about.

You know, I coach, I coach my kids. I've coached in the past. Obviously, I played and I, and I played for a lot of coaches. And I think that coaching is a form of leadership. And I 100% bring a lot of how I coach into how I lead a team in, in the business world. And I got a lot of those different principles through coaching because they translate so well from team sports to business and how you motivate employees.

The biggest one being you don't play on the field.

Correct.

Which I think a lot of leaders forget.

Correct. And it's, it's this notion that a good coach is over there.

Right, right.

A good coach is over there offering encouragement and, and advice and suggestions. A good coach is not standing next to you micromanaging every move. That's impossible.

Right.

There has to be a distance. And a good coach gives it his or her players authority to go with the responsibility.

Yeah. The thing that I find amazing about some of the winning most coaches in history, and you look at John Wooden and others like him, that sports, which is a finite game and the goal— actually, the goal is to win— that the coaches themselves, these winning most coaches ever, were not obsessed with winning. They were obsessed with the team. They're obsessed with the esprit de corps and all of those things. And I guess in your experience in sports and in business, That's hard, right? That's hard to put aside what is the actual purpose of the end of the season and to be like, nope, I just care about the team. Like, where does that come from in some leaders? And I don't just mean in sports, but in business as well. Like, that ability to be like, it's okay, focus on each other, focus on taking care of, you know, the fundamentals, everything will work out. Like, I struggle with that as well. We all do.

It's really hard when the pressures are there and the goals are there and you know, you disagree with decisions, you know, the ability to, to every day have sort of the long view of what success looks like and not try to day trade in success. Yeah, right. And what I just said right then, I could have been talking about team sports or I could have been talking about business.

But there's a game and there's a season. Like in The Infinite Mindset, I mean, I wrote about the infinite game and the infinite mindset to relieve the stress of needing to play with a finite mindset when there is no finish line. But in sports, legit, there is an end of the season and you want to be ahead.

I think so much of that, so much of it is controllable. Now, in sports, there's talent, and talent is talent, right? And sometimes you're just outmatched talent-wise. But so much of your ability to have success today and throughout the season is, is within your control, right? Right. And it's, and it's the coach's job to define what that looks like. I think the best coaches and the best leaders, they, they define your role like good teams and good businesses. The members of the team understand what my role is.

That's interesting.

They understand what my job is. Yeah. Right. This is your job. And I used to say all the time is like, if we're a baseball team, and the right fielder decides to come stand next to the pitcher just because the right fielder wants to stand next to the pitcher, we're in trouble if the ball gets hit to right field, right? Because that's, that's the right fielder not doing their role, not fulfilling their role.

Yeah.

Okay. And so in order for us to be successful, then we need you and you and you and you to, to do your role to help the collective. Okay. Now, now I get it. I understand you want to be a pitcher right fielder. So independent of you fulfilling your role as the right fielder for us today, for us to be successful today and for the long term, let's talk separately about your desire to be a pitcher. Yeah. And how we can try and help you achieve your goal and your aim, your desire to be a pitcher while also fulfilling your role as a right fielder.

So let's translate this to business now, because I'm guilty of this, which is because I'm very comfortable in chaos. I'm just like, Just get it done. Yeah. And, you know, when you have a little bit of scale and a little bit of momentum, now all of a sudden you have divisions of labor and people doing multiple things and the roles aren't clear. And I think you're right, especially when people have ambition, they're like, oh, I'm going to do more of this because that's what I want to do. Correct. Even though we need that. This idea that you can do both, but by having the clearly articulated roles, it seems so basic. And I think most companies do do it. I think most companies do a bad job of it. Most companies or a lot of companies don't do it. I was a late learner to this one, like having to write everything down in crystal clear terms what someone's role is. You've had the opportunity to work with some of the greats in, in sports, in basketball. And even if people aren't basketball fans, they've heard of LeBron James, they've heard of Kobe Bryant, they've heard of these names. What did you learn from them? Like, what did you learn from Kobe?

Oh, gosh. Kobe had this incredible ability to compartmentalize. Kobe understood what, what the goal was at any given point in time. And he understood the role that I, Kobe, need to play in order for I, Kobe, to be successful and for the group to be successful. And that, that role can change Kobe as the person in that moment.

Give me an example.

So we have 3 boys and we were at, we were at a game and our oldest, he Jude, he basketball player, and he was, he was a young guy. And Jude's as sweet and as nice of a human being you'd ever want to meet. I used to say to Sheryl, my wife, like, he needs a little more grit. Holistically, we're trying to raise nice young men, but I wish he had a little more grit, right? And that nice young man part is going to serve him well, but when he's playing basketball, look, wish he had more grit. And so we were at the arena before a game, and Kobe was standing there. He would say hello and he asked Jude how he's doing. And Jude says, good, playing, da da da. And I said, you know, Kobe, he needs a little more bite. And Kobe's standing next to the sideline. Kobe's standing on the court next to the sideline. And he said, Jude, this is how I look at it. When I'm on the court, asshole. And he literally stepped off of the court. Nice guy. Step back on. Asshole. It's like, oh, nice guy. He said, dude, you can be both. You can be both because you are this does not mean you cannot be that. Right. I think professional athletes at the highest level have this amazing ability to compartmentalize and to leave whatever is going on in here or out there. They check it at the door. Yeah.

It's the thing I find amazing about professional sports, which is the talent. Like, there's lots of great golfers, there's lots of great tennis players, but caving under the pressure. And these elite athletes, sure, they've got amazing talent, but it's the mental fortitude that they don't cave under the pressure that I find particularly astonishing. You know, bottom of the 9th, you're down by 2 runs, there's, you know, 2 outs, you know, winning run on base. And you hit a home run. Like, where does that come from?

I'm not an elite athlete. I've never been one at that level. Right. And but I think the elite, elite athletes, they don't— they don't focus on bottom of the 9th. I need to hit a home run.

Yeah.

I don't know what they focus on, but I think all they focus on is what are the fundamentals? What do I need to do in this pitch? Yeah. It's not I'm worried about this at-bat. I'm worried about this pitch.

So what they're doing is they're taking the stakes off.

Yes.

I read— I read— I We will say I read a thing. I probably saw it on the Instagram, but I found this very interesting. A guy who did a study about elite tennis players, what he did was he looked at, I think, the top 20 or 25 tennis players in the world. And the reality is it's only the top 10 that keep cycling through, right? Even though the top 25 are still on the list. So how come the bottom 15, the best in the world, the 16th, 17th, 18th best, how come they don't cycle up to the finals? Right? They all have sponsors, they all got— have access to resource, they all have the best coaches, they all have the best equipment, they all have the best diets. Like, it's all even steven, right? And what he learned was these— the, the, the top echelon, um, have a love for the game that when they win a point, they go, ah, I love this game.

Yeah.

And when they lose a point, they go Lost that one, but you just wait for the next one. Individually, they save tiny bits of energy because they're just, they're more relaxed. They're not carrying that stress. And by the time you get to the end, that has now built up and you have way more energy to play. So it's, yes, it's partially mindset, but it's also the ability to just be relaxed throughout the whole game and love the game each moment and not take the loss of a point like it's the end of the world. It's a point.

It's one point.

It's a point. And I'll— you just wait for the next one. Correct. And that joy is what separated— he found that the most elite athletes from everybody else. And I wonder if it's the same in all athletics.

I would— where you think so?

Basketball, there's stars and then there's kind of like everybody else.

Yeah. Everything's about the details, right? It's always going to be about what are the intangibles that you're doing that that if you can stack those things over and over and over, how many times can you multiply behavior, right? Can you multiply consistently? I was in the— I was in the gym once, and at one end Austin Reeves was shooting threes, and at the other end a G League player was shooting threes independently, and they're both making them. Swish, swish.

What's G League?

G League is the minor league for basketball. They're both Consistent.

You got a star starter Laker and a G-League guy both shooting threes.

Both shooting threes independent. Got it. Both making baskets, basket, basket, basket. And I thought, what is the difference? Yeah. Why is Austin Reeves Austin Reeves?

Yeah.

And this, this young man is, is, is, is trying to bust through to have the opportunity to be Austin Reeves. And, and it has to be the intangibles. They're both talented. They're both making a bunch of baskets. Correct. They're both good. But what is it that allows Austin to be Austin? I think it's the totality of it. When you're talking about a great anything, it's the totality of it. They don't waste time.

Because I'm trying to now, like, obviously, and now I want to get off the court and come— Yeah, yeah. Because you ran a business. I mean, you weren't— you weren't in the locker room.

You ran—

you ran the business for the Lakers. I'm curious, you know, is that the same at work? Are there people who like the way they manage stress, the way they show up as a team, like it's the slow and steady. Yeah. Do you see two extremely talented people, but for some reason one— why won't one rise to the top? And there's a frustration that builds in because people know they're talented, then why aren't they bubbling up? Now we're assuming good leadership, politics and stuff like that, but you know, all things being fair and equal in a, in a good environment, I guess what I'm, I'm trying to get at is somebody who's led at the highest levels and had incredible success in business. You know, what lessons can I discern as a leader on how to foster my talent, recognize my talent, see the right things? Or how can I be the talent who's— I know I'm smart and talented. I know I've got a good work ethic. Why the heck am I not getting recognized?

There's so much that goes into that. You have to give them enough grace to make mistakes. But not so much that they'll get— they'll make a career-defining mistake. Right? You have to give them the ability to make these kind of mistakes that allow them to grow versus a mistake that's going to be damaging. It comes back to understanding the role. Do they understand the role? What you find in successful companies is employees who are in an incredible rush and getting them to understand, slow down.

But that's a generational thing too, right?

It is a generational thing.

And we don't need to go into all those reasons. But, you know, young people aren't wrong to keep looking for jobs because companies aren't loyal to them anymore.

Sometimes employees, young and old, they go looking for solutions when there's no problem because they think, I need to do that. And it's understanding this notion between am I trying to encourage change or am I trying to encourage evolution?

It's so hard, right? And again, I'm going to go back to sports. If you just think about the greats, Michael Jordan was a profoundly different player from Kobe Bryant, from LeBron James, you know, and I watched that documentary, The Last Dance. I found it fascinating. And because Michael Jordan was not the person I thought he was, right? I thought he was this happy, smiley sweetheart of a man because that was the brand he cultivated. And he was a fiercely competitive guy who will happily take a few coins away from the security guards because he beat them gambling, right? Just fierce competitor who would make up stories in his head about the other players that they said stuff about him in the press just to be angry at them on the court.

Correct.

And is that repeatable? Or is that a Mike— is that like a once in a generation kind of talent?

I'm not sure you can teach what you just said. I don't think you can say, here's your checklist of the things you need to do. And when you do these things, then you will be that.

So you can't be like Mike?

I— but I think you can encourage behavior that will elicit that if you have it within you.

But I don't want to work with people like that in my company. I don't want to work with people who come in angry so that they can win. No.

No, no, because then it becomes they're pulling against it. They're the right fielder who is trying to run and make everyone's play. Do you know, in any endeavor, there are 3 unspoken words that will ruin any endeavor.

Go on.

As long as.

Say more.

I want you, Simon, I want you to fulfill this function for us on our team. If you fulfill this function, then we can be successful. Will you fulfill this function? Simon says, yeah, sure, of course. In his mind, he says, as long as I make more money than everybody else, as long as I get the credit, as long as I can be in charge. And translate that into any sporting situation. As long as are three words The 3 unspoken words that can undo any endeavor because it's conditions. Yeah, it's conditional. It's unspoken condition.

It's conditional teamwork.

Yes. And those 3 words, we all have a tendency to have them, of course. But those 3 words, when you put them in your pocket and you carry them with you every day, it makes success so hard to achieve.

I want to unpack this because this is good. So it's unfortunately we can't hear what somebody is saying in their head. So when we say, I need to do this, they go, aye aye.

Okay.

As long as, right? We don't know what they're saying. I know for me, as I'm listening to this, the times that I have said it and we've all said it, the times that I've said it, instead of just getting away with it, what you're saying is check yourself. Why are you saying as long as? And if you're saying as long as you pay me more than everybody else, the question is, is am I feeling underappreciated? Am I feeling unworthy or unseen? Is this my ambition that I'm not meeting my own expectations? Right, right, right, right. And I think the idea of if I start saying to myself, as long as I want to inquire to myself, okay, where is that coming from? Or maybe I just hate this company and I'm just here temporarily, you know, but I want to check in with myself. That's a, that's a huge lesson right there. Yes, it is. Otherwise I become a conditional team player. Okay.

But yes, yes. But let's look at it. Simon is the, the team member and I'm the, the man, the leader of this team, right? Because I think we have a tendency to all have as long as, okay. And it's just what we do with our as long as, right? Yeah. And how do I kind of manage that and try to make sure that I'm helpful to Simon? What I have found useful for me and helpful, I think, is I sit with team members and I say, hey, Simon, right now you're the We're going to hire you. We're going to promote you. You're going to be— you are the director of ABC. Okay? You're the director of this. And this is what we expect you to do. And such. Simon says, okay, that's great. I want to do that. And I say, okay, Simon, you're coming into this job. You've applied to be this job for the director of ABC. What's next? How does director of ABC set you up for the next thing? What's next after that? What is Simon looking to use director of ABC to become? Vice president of ABC? And what I do Oftentimes is, is it's, it's a way of encouraging someone to have a little bit of self-reflection on their own journey.

Okay.

So if Simon says, look, I want to be the director of seat sales, and then I say, okay, that's, that's tremendous, Simon, because we think you could do that. What do you want to do next? What do you see that leading to? And Simon says, well, I want to be an astronaut. Okay. I don't know how that's going to help you, Simon. Okay. But if Simon says, look, I have huge aspirations as the director to within one year be a vice president and it's this, I need to do this. Okay, Simon, how are we going to make that happen for you? How do— what are the things that we're going to be able to do to try to put you in a place so that you can try and achieve your goal? I think what we do is we do two things. We start pulling out the as long as, which start pulling out of the pocket. And at the same time, Simon starts feeling a little bit more safe to share his ambition because as long as it's a condition, but it's an ambition. Yeah, right. It's generally an ambition. It's, it's not generally a negative. It's usually this is what I want for myself.

Right, right, right.

And so if Simon feels that Tim has created a safe space. Right. And an encouraging space to be ambitious and a a sort of mentor-type setting where Simon goes, look, he's, he's on my side here. He's going to help me.

Can you do that for every person?

It's difficult. It's hard to scale. What you can do is this, okay? If, if Simon is the vice president, I'm the president, I say, look, how can I help you? I'm going to encourage you to do the same. Right. And the vice president talks to the directors and the director and says the same thing. And the directors talk to the managers.

Well, I think where it is scalable is each line of, of the hierarchy can take responsibility for the people in their care. Correct. So I can't ask everybody on the entire team, tell me what your ambition is. I don't even work with everybody.

Correct. It's impossible.

But scale— but you, but it can be scaled down, down to the— and somebody can say, they have to be safe enough to say, I don't know.

100%.

I like my job. I like it here, but I don't know.

Exactly.

That's allowed.

I'm trying to learn. I'm trying to foster instinct.

The LA Lakers are a remarkable organization, not just because of their success on the court, but their success off the court. Right. I think you did a lot of things to change and revolutionize that place and help make the franchise and the brand what it has become. Right. There are many things about your leadership style. I only know a few of the stories, and I'm going to try and get more out of you because, because I learn from you every time I get to sit down with you. You told me one story. First of all, you don't sit courtside. No, you could, but you don't. You have your seats. They're above where the players come out. They're still good seats. Yeah, but they're back.

Yes.

And those are your seats. And you, you give all the better seats to, to others. And you told me a story how now and then, especially when you've got a couple extra courtside seats that are unused, you will go up into the rafters, specifically into the rafters. You'll look for a parent-child. Yes. Who— they got last-minute tickets, or this is what they can afford, whatever the dynamic is. You're looking for that parent-child experience, and you tap them on the shoulder and you say, come with me. And before they know it, they're sitting on the courtside of an L.A. Lakers game. What was the first time you did that and what was the motivation?

Probably the first time I did it was when we were at the new arena and we had moved downtown from the Forum. So we were at Staples Center and we had some extras and I just got— I had some time and I thought, I'm just going to do this.

I mean, you didn't call up your celebrity friends?

No, you didn't.

You know, like, no, because, you know, sports teams like to have celebrities on the sides.

Yes. And we, the Lakers have plenty. The sport of basketball is just the vehicle. That's the vehicle. This is the, the, the sports industry is a business of memories. Like, I don't know all the stories of the folks that I have helped over the years from time to time. But I think, you know, what, what if whatever else is going on in their life, this is the biggest thing for them. And all of a sudden they get moved down to the floor from way, way, way up high because that was either the only thing they could afford or the only thing they could find. And all of a sudden, on this evening that the parent is, is trying to make special, it becomes life-changing, all because they got to move to a seat. How that completely changes the dynamic.

So let me, let me put on my cold business hat. Yes. The cynical hat that I know other people are thinking. 100%. Yeah. Right? Which is you're giving away $10,000 worth of seats. Love that you're giving away memories. Yeah. Love that you're making sports about memories. But the long-term value of the ticket holders who spent, who bought the cheapest tickets in the stadium, in the arena, I don't have a lot of long-term value in those. They're probably not gonna become season ticket holders. Yep. The likelihood of them being able to afford front row tickets within a short period of time is low, that's a bad investment.

Correct. If— and the financial person would say, why on earth are you doing this? Okay, so it's the game's at 7:30. It's 7 o'clock. Okay. It's 6:45. I've got 2 tickets in my pocket. Let's pretend they're $2,500 apiece. There's no one standing in line at the box office who's going to buy— who's going to spend $2,500 apiece.

Correct.

Right. So you're going to— you're going to eat those tickets.

Right.

Right. The money is going to be—

the money's lost.

The money's lost already. So what can you do with that money? Right. Or what can you do with that opportunity? And the way I choose to evolve, I've always chosen to believe this is this is in the profit and loss statement. Yes, that $5,000, $2,500 times 2 is gone. That opportunity is gone because the game is going to be played and that opportunity is lost.

Right.

But we move those two people down, right? They become evangelical.

Yeah.

And they tell two people and they go home and they tell and they tell.

And like, the Lakers is the greatest organization on the planet.

And it scales, right? I believe that successful brands are built one tiny little act at a time. Mm-hmm. It's not— there are giant movements, but supported by tiny little acts that just continue to grow the brand. Okay. And when you grow a brand, when a successful company becomes a successful brand, then they are worth more money.

Okay.

I'm going to play with me.

I'm going to play this back because. Okay. So the argument is that if you're willing, it's kind of like exercise. If you're willing to just keep doing the little bits, it will build up. And if you just trust that you create evangelicals who will, you know, a rich person who gets to sit in good seats will tell a couple friends, 'cause, you know, I got to sit on, you know, I got to sit near the court. Where somebody who the chances of them sitting by the court in their entire life is close to zero, they will tell everyone. And the goodwill that comes from how great this organization is, even when the team loses, how I love the Lakers, ripples and ripples and ripples.

I believe that.

And the cost was actually zero because the money was sunk anyway.

It's gone anyway, yeah.

If you've got, you know, a few thousand dollars worth of empty seats. You could eat it and just leave them empty. That is an option, right? Or you could take the risk to do one of these little acts and you can't just do one. That's the problem.

No, it's not. You cannot be a one-off.

You have to do it now and then. Yes. And it has to have some consistency. And at some point the brand starts to have more power and all of a sudden you're selling more merchandise and nobody can really point to exactly what it was because the team did fine last year. But for some reason we're seeing merch doing really well, and it wasn't directly tied to some championship. That these things, you know, this is where I think economists and, and sort of the internet of things and hypermetrics, which is not everything is easy to measure, but everything has an impact. And you're experimenting. You're not just— you're doing that and many others.

That's what it has to be. It has to be.

You're not taking a bet that giving away tickets is the thing.

When you explain your why Yeah. To the organization. Yeah. The organization has to have the, the comfort and the, the feel, the safety to do their own acts of kindness because now you get them to metastasize.

Right. Can I tell you a ripple that you created that you don't even know you created? That is exactly this theory. The first time I met you, we sat down for lunch and you handed me a duffel bag. Yeah. Filled, filled with Lakers stuff. Yes. More than I or my family could— could consume. Right, right. T-shirts and sweatshirts and what's not. My friends and family took what they wanted. You know, they picked at it like a vulture, like vultures. I took what I wanted and I still have tons of stuff. And so I have that bag with stuff in it in my trunk. I'll go to a restaurant and the valet will come and bring my car to me. Yes. And I'll be like, come with me. I'll pop the trunk open, I'll open the bag and say, "Take what you want." He'll hold up an $80 jacket. He's like, "Can I have this?" I'm like, "You can have that," right? And I like drive away and I see him with his Lakers jacket on, right? And so now simply because you gave me a bunch of stuff that I didn't throw away and I continue to give away to people who want it, not just randos, like people who like, "Do you want something from the Lakers?" "Oh my God, I love the Lakers," right?. And so now these ripples of goodwill from the Lakers continue to spread. And I say, oh, the Lakers gave it to me. I'm going to give it to you.

It's a great feeling.

Have I ever— Great feeling.

Have I, have I ever told you about Kai U being a Laker? No. I never told you about Kai being a Laker. So pre-pandemic, I had this thought for a while. It must be so frustrating if you're a Laker employee and you go to a barbecue, because if you go to a barbecue and you're a Laker employee and somebody says, what do you do? And you say, I work for the Lakers, first question generally is, well, how do you get free tickets? Like, not every employee is just like, yeah, I got, I got tickets everywhere. And I thought in a moment they're like, like, you're a king. I feel I work for the Lakers. No, I don't really. And so we created this program that I'd wanted, and it was called Caught You Being a Laker. And what it was is we gave every employee these two cards that were built out and they look like, you know, the size of an ATM card, but they're cards. And it said, "Kaiyubin a Laker" and stuff, and had some details on the back. And every employee got two, and every card was worth— was good for two free tickets. And the goal was, if you're out in the city and you see someone shooting baskets wearing a Laker shirt, if you see someone at the mall and they're wearing a Laker hat, you can walk up and you can say, you know, hi, I caught you being a Laker. I work for the Lakers and I want to tell you, I just caught you being a Laker and I want to send you to a game. That's brilliant. Okay. And, and the idea is it's, it's evangelical. And the best part, the magic part of it is you don't promote it. Yeah. You don't, you don't turn around and turn the camera on yourself.

Yeah.

You let it just happen.

It's not a PR stunt.

No, no. Because that's not what it is. It's not a PR stunt. Yeah, right. Yeah. And the first weekend we did it, the following Monday, there's a knock on my door. And Steve, who works in the mailroom, came in and he's crying. And I said, Steve, what's wrong? He said, Tim, I did it this weekend. I went out and I saw a father and a son shooting hoops and the kid had a jersey on. And I went up and I told him, I've caught you being a Laker and I want to give you this. And I said, Steve, that's so amazing. Tell me what happened. Like, I want to know what happened. He said, Timmy, the little boy started crying and the dad started crying because we can never get to a game and we can't ever find tickets. And Steve says, so then I start crying. Steve said, Tim, thank you for letting us do this, because I felt so proud to be able to go out in the community and do this for someone. It can't just be the Tim of the world going up and handing out 2 tickets. This is Steve, the mailroom guy going around in the community. So now the only rule was you had to share your story.

Yeah.

And if you could get a picture, that was it. And then you could get more. Steve and others, they became addicted to this.

Yeah.

They're out on the weekend trying to find people because it was a— it was a— it was a rush for them.

Yeah. I think what sports has that a lot of companies don't which is an advantage to you, and it's a warning or a shot across the bow for regular companies, which is your customer— and not to demean the fan, but your customer, the person who pays, who buys— is right there. Yeah, they're screaming and they're yelling, and you have that very close contact with them. You can easily identify your customer out in the market. Yes. You know, a lot of companies can't see their customers. They don't have daily access to their customers. Their customers don't fill arenas multiple times a week. And we forget that the customers are people. We forget that they have families and emotions and ambitions and they become just dollars and cents and returns on investments.

Yeah.

And that's how we treat them. That's how they feel treated. I'll give you a really funny example. I was flying home from Toronto and the customs is on the Toronto side. And so you have to get to the airport really early because sometimes the customs line is insanely long, right? And so I got through really quickly, which never happens, which means I was actually early enough to make the earlier flight. So I went up to the Air Canada counter. I was flying Air Canada. And I said, hey, I managed to get through really early. Do you have seats on the earlier flight? She goes, we do. I'm like, great. Can I get on the earlier flight, please? Going to the same airport. She goes, that'll be $600. I'm like, no, no, no. I'm just going to get on the earlier flight. You know, I've done this a million times. Every airline lets you. Take empty seats. She goes, it's $600. I said, look, I'm not going to pay the $600, clearly, right? So I'm either going to just wait here or you'll let me on the plane. And she goes, well, then you're going to have to wait. I said, I just have to ask, what you're telling me is you would rather send an empty seat back to New York rather than make a customer happy and be able to get home an hour earlier, right? I'm just checking in with you, right? She goes, sir, this is a business. Right. That's literally what she said to my face. Now, I don't fault her for it. No, because her leaders and her leaders' leaders and her leaders' leaders are telling them, you treat that human being like a line item on a spreadsheet because this is a business. One of the reasons I love spending time with you and one of the things that I learned from you, and it's a huge reminder, and that's what I've— I sort of why I wanted you to come on here.

Yeah.

Which is it's to remind us that business is always human. Yes. Even if you're in a B2B space, a human being will make a purchase, will be the client. Yeah. That at some point you cannot avoid the human being. Correct. And the more you understand that people are messy and people are— have insecurities and ambitions and desires and dreams, and if every now and then if you can find ways, whether it's caught you being a Laker or bringing people down from the upper deck down to the front and many of the other things that you did, what you are reminding yourselves is to show up every day for the human beings who like to buy your product.

The Lakers are a gigantic international brand.

Yeah.

That has a gigantic international fan base.

Yeah.

1%, 1% of the fan base ever gets to actually go to a game live.

'Cause they're— it's too—

it's too— right. You have to remember that— get out of the arena. You cannot treat this like some sort of monolith, right? You have to get out and remember that what you're doing impacts people who are watching you. But you don't know they're watching you. But you have to know. You have to accept that they're watching you. And every single—

And it's not just ratings.

No. And it's every single interaction that you have. Has to be genuine because, okay, it's, it's Jenga. Yeah, it's Jenga, right? Okay. So you have your organization, you have your brand, and you're the person at the, at the airline that right then for you, okay, the, the whatever airline, ABC Airline.

And by the way, I'm now telling stories about Air Canada on, on air. I mean, that's what happens.

Exactly.

I mean, it cuts both ways because it's Jenga.

Yeah. Okay. Air Canada's Jenga. Yeah.

Lost a— lost a brick.

Lost a brick.

You can only lose so many bricks.

The next day they did the same thing to somebody else. Air Canada's Jenga lost another brick. You don't know.

Yeah.

When the last brick gets pulled.

Yeah.

So you can't play with that. It's fragile.

And companies confuse good times for being intelligent. Like, yes, if the Lakers are winning and you're selling a lot of tickets and you're selling a lot of merch, that doesn't mean the company is functioning. That means the team is winning.

Yes, that team— that means that the basketball players playing really well.

But you're, you're building a big business to survive when you're winning and when you're not winning.

Yes. And the thing is, you can't run— in my opinion, you cannot run a basketball team or a sports organization like a utility.

Yeah.

Right. You need us, utility. Therefore, we're going to treat you however we feel like treating you. Right. Because we are a business, airline.

Right.

No, you cannot do that because then, then everywhere they're pulling away the Jenga. And then one day it falls and it's far harder to build it back up than it is to keep it up.

How did you learn this? I mean, with all the pressures you have to lead a, as you said, a global powerhouse of a brand, because the pressures on you, I have to believe, were unbelievable. And the financial ambitions and the pressures on you from the organization were huge as well. I mean, that's your job, is to grow the enterprise.

The leader I am now was not always the leader I was. It's an evolutionary thing, right? You evolve to what it is like. Leading is not a tangible thing, right? It's not something you can hold on to. You don't get a license. You don't get a— here's your leadership passport and now you're good as a leader for 5 years until it's time to renew it. And then we'll let you know. Right.

I wish that were the case.

And so you don't—

it's a good idea.

You don't get that. At some point I found a calmness in how I approach it. And I 100%— and I learned this, you know, gosh, my wife, Shoal, always, always reminds me with coaching, you know, like I'd be coaching a kid's team and I'd, you know, they're not doing this and this kid's not trying and this. And she would say, but, you know, just meet them where they are. Like, I know they're not being the athlete you want them to be. Meet them where they are. And I— I took that and applied that to the workplace. Like, I want to meet each person where they are, but I don't want to just meet each employee where they are. I want to meet each business partner where they are. I want to meet each ticket holder where they are. Right. Because everyone has a different viewpoint. There's a French author from years and years ago, Anais Nin, and she would say We don't see things as they are. We see them as we are. And that's so true. And so every single interaction is, is different. And taking from Scholl, I had to learn, meet them, meet every single person where they are.

So reconcile that with accountability.

What do you mean?

Because a cynic listening to meet them where they are might hear that as nobody's held accountable.

100% no. 100% no. That is the, the unspoken agreement that we're going to have. There's going to be— look, I'm going to, I am going to treat you like a human being, okay? I am not going to treat you like a disposable, changeable employee, okay? But you have to do your part too. What are you doing to help us as you are trying to help you? There has to absolutely be accounting. It can't just be chaos, right?

You know, there's—

I've made this mistake. There has to be order.

I ran a hippie commune. That's what my business was like. I tried so hard to be nice to everybody that we couldn't meet deadlines. There was no accountability, and it just didn't work. I over-indexed on meet people where they are, you know. And what I realized was that I thought I was actually doing people a service, and what I realized is it actually was bad for the people who worked there because nobody had any sense of accomplishment. Nobody had a sense of, we did this. Nobody had a sense of difficulty in like getting through something. And so when we started to add accountability to the mix, still meeting people where they're at, adding accountability, the quality of the team went up, the quality of the work went up, the morale went up, and we could actually meet deadlines to get work done. So it's— and what I've learned is like people want to accomplish and they want to do good.

Do you know what people crave? Crave? People crave caring structure.

Caring structure. That's such a nice way of putting it. They do.

Yeah, they do. They do. People want— they want boundaries.

Yeah.

Look at every child who's gone— who's gone off, you know, sort of boundaryless. And you look at that and they're like, well, they have no boundaries. Kids will push them, they'll fight against it, but they crave them. They need them. There's safety in it. There's comfort in it. Employees are the same thing. And accountability. Yes. Sometimes you have to hug them with arms wrapped in barbed wire. Right. But you're still hugging them.

Yeah.

And they know it. Right. They know it because—

Well, you're talking about having difficult conversations.

Yeah. I tell anybody who worked for me in the Lakers, you're a young parent, you're you're a young person, you're, you're whatever. If I ever find out that you missed one of your kids' games, a play, a recital, something that your mom or dad were doing because you were at work— at work.

Yeah.

We're going to have a problem. Yeah. Because when all is said and done, whatever took place that one day at work is not going to be as important as these things, because these things have an expiration date. Yeah. However, that's the accountability part. And if you can— this goes back to, to understanding roles, setting expectations. Yeah. Giving people grace, understanding that I'm going to see you as a human being and see you where you want to go and how you want to be and what you want to do as a person. And I'm going to encourage you and help you get there. Yeah. When you have that, this two-way street, Okay. They, they want to protect that relationship. And so they're not going to abuse it. So accountability tends to take care of itself because they want to protect that environment because it doesn't happen very often.

So good. I'm not letting you leave here without telling some— as you can tell, I'm not a basketball fan. Like, I can name like 3 players from the Lakers. I apologize. I know Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, but that was a long time ago. That was a very long time ago, probably before you were there. But like, Kobe and LeBron, like, I can't let you live here without telling some of your favorite stories of them, things that you've learned from them.

The thing— both of them, different eras, right? Yeah. I mean, LeBron was coming in when Kobe was sort of starting to transition out and both incredibly prepared. You know, when athletes do— great athletes, they do their work in the dark. They do their work when no one knows. That's where the great ones get great. Like, you see them, right? And they're great. But the— you talk about sort of the difference between Austin Reeves and the gilet guy. The great ones do their work when no one's looking and no one is seeing it. That's what separates them. And those two guys, that's what they did. Kobe was ridiculous. I heard this story about Kobe. He retires. It's his last game. Okay. He has this incredible last game, you know, just an insane capping of a monumental career. And he lived in Newport Beach and he left and got home about 2:00. Wow. He was in the gym at 4:30. Wow. The next day, because it doesn't turn off. Yeah.

For better or for worse.

That's just— that's just who he is.

Yeah.

Right. When you have these kind of positions like I have or had with the Lakers, is you're around these, like, amazing human beings. You're around people like Phil Jackson. Here's the one thing that, you know, great leaders, great coaches, it's human first. It's always human first. They care about the human. Read, read about Phil Jackson. He cared about the human being.

Yeah.

You have to love them in order to win. You don't need to win in order to be loved.

You have to love them in order to win. You don't need to win in order to be loved. That is— that is about as good as it gets. That's— you have to love them in order to win. You do not have to win in order to be loved. I love that. A couple last questions for you. Yes, sir. You've played a key role in ushering in one of the most dominant teams in the NBA. When you look back, what memories stand out that make The Lakers.

The Lakers. The winning is like— the easy one is winning, right? It's the easy is the joy of the winning. You know, the championships are amazing, right? When you win a championship and you're standing on the court and it's chaos. I used to say to employees, stop, stop. And I know it's chaos, but let it be chaos. For 30 seconds and just look around and take it in. And I don't mean look around from a macro level, like stop on people's faces and look at the joy that they're experiencing because that's what you're going to take with you. You're not going to take that you had to run and get 30 hats over to the players. The hats will get there. Stop and take a moment, be present and be present and look. And that's the joy of how a fan base can surround itself on a team. The place where I saw it was, was born in tragedy. And that's when we lost Kobe. And you saw the impact of what an individual, not, not a player who had scored a bunch of points, but what an individual can have on an organization and how that can bring people together. That's when you saw this team is special, this organization is special, this organization impacts.

What an amazing, amazing, amazing journey.

Unbelievable. The stories that I've— you know, I've been able to experience and places I've seen and the people I've met and the— just the people I've watched grow up.

Yeah.

In the arena.

Yeah.

Right. Incredible.

You're so good. I wish more leaders were like you. I do. Really? Yeah, I do. I think you're— I think you're a dying breed, whether it's because you spent your life at one company or it's how you were raised as a leader. Your type used to be more common, and they're becoming less common because I think pressure— maybe it's your personality, or maybe, maybe it's not your personality. Maybe it's that we have created work environments that disincentivize and disallow leaders like you and, and the kind of leaders that I get to write about and celebrate, you know, from showing up. And it's not how business should be.

Have we lost all patience?

Say more. What do you mean by that?

Well, we look more like we're day trading than investing. Have we lost—

oh yeah, we don't invest, we gamble. Investing is like I hold on to it. Yes. And I'm in— correct. Like I invest in education, I invest in my children's future, right? I invest in the stock market. What we do is predominantly gambling. Correct. Right.

I struggle with this, and, and I'm— I've not been in these situations because it's over on the sporting side, but you know this whole notion that coaches are hired to be fired.

Okay.

Yeah. And I think there's a point in time when you hire a coach in any sport and you have the press conference and you're so excited and there's so much optimism. And this coach— there is a reason that that coach is standing at the podium, that you're so filled with optimism that this coach is going to be the one who does whatever. And you've had meetings and interviews prior to that where you've, you've presumably laid out these are the things we want to do and this is where we need to go to. And the coaches told you, okay, this is how we're going to get there and that you've arrived at, okay, this is the person who can do this.

Right.

And then after a year, things don't work out or 2 years, things don't work out or 3 years. At some point you fire him, fire this coach. 3 years ago, this was the person who was going to take you to the promised land.

Right, right, right.

What changed?

Right.

That now we're firing this coach and unceremoniously and reasonably quickly. And were there conversations that said, look, when we interviewed you, you said you were going to do these things and you're not doing them.

Why?

Yeah. Or the coach says, look, 3 years ago when you interviewed me, you said you were going to do these things to support— and you didn't do these.

Right.

Why? If a year in you're saying, hey, Coach, A year ago you said you were going to do these 3 things and you're not doing them. Why? Well, I, for whatever reason, or okay, well, let's get back to that. Like, why don't we manage our coaches and why don't we manage our leaders? Why don't we manage the heads of companies, right? Why do we blame the person and not the problem? Why don't we work with them like we work with employees? Like, why do we just—

because I think unless there's a wholesale change in the incentive structures, there's no incentive to be so.

Well, oftentimes coaches are fired because it's, it's the, the way that the, the GM is saving their, their, like, buying more time for themselves.

I mean, what have you. I mean, that's about right. You and I could talk about this forever.

Yeah.

All I know is I'm glad you exist.

I so appreciate this.

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