Mastering the Triathlon & Beyond: From Escaping Alcatraz to Ultra & Gravel

Foreign.

I'm charlie redding.

And I'm claire fudge.

Welcome to the business of endurance.

I think it's harder mentally because there's no escaping the hundred miles you have ahead of yourself. You weren't prepared properly for the course, and then, like, you take that into your next races, into your training, and to prepare better for the next ones ahead.

Welcome to another episode of the Business of Endurance podcast. Today we've got the pleasure of speaking to the extraordinary Heather Jackson. So Heather is now a retired professional triathlete with Multiple Ironman and 70.3 wins and a podium to her name. But she's now transitioned into into not just one new sport, but two. So she's transitioned into both ultra running and gravel cycling, showcasing an incredible journey of endurance and versatility. Known for her mental resilience and ability to push through diverse sporting challenges, Heather nearly made the Olympics through ice hockey before shifting her focus to triathlons. And in this episode, Heather shares her favorite win at the iconic Escape from Alcatraz Triathlon, a race that was very daunting given that all her own admission, swimming was far and away her weakest discipline within triathlon. She also discusses the mental tactics she employs and provides insights into her unique nutritional strategies for both Ironman and Ultra racing. We also delve into her journey into triathlon, her approach to mental recovery, and the business side of her athletic career, including marketing and securing sponsorships. So whether you're an aspiring athlete or a seasoned professional, Heather's experiences and advice offer valuable lessons in fitness, life, business, health, and nutrition. So tune in for an inspiring conversation with the amazing Heather Jacks. One of the conversations we have with Heather during this interview is about marketing, because marketing yourself as an athlete is just as important as marketing yourself as a business. So if you hang around till the end of this podcast, I'll give you something that can help you market your business, as Heather is marketing herself as the successful athlete she is. So, Heather, welcome to the Business of Endurance podcast. I know this is going to be a blast. I'm really looking forward to chatting to you. You've got an incredible story so far and there's. Oh, wow. There's so much more to come, I'm sure. I always like to start with an inspiring story and particularly where it is something that's on my bucket list. And I know it's on Claire's bucket list as well. So to kick things off, tell us a bit about what I think you class as your greatest win in your triathlon journey, which is the escape from Alcatraz. Tell us about that race.

Oh, my goodness, yes. Thanks so much for having me on. I've been looking forward to this. In terms of Escape from Alcatraz, I mean, honestly, yeah, whenever people ask me about one of my biggest accomplishments or just one of those moments in my triathlon career, I just always go to Escape from Alcatraz because it is literally the last race I probably should have ever been able to break the tape at. And for that to have happened and it was very early on in my career as a professional. I think it was my second year as a pro. I had won one race earlier the prior year, Wildflower Triathlon. But I came into the 2013 season and yeah, Escape from Alcatraz, it wasn't even on my calendar actually then they had moved the date that year, so it was actually earlier than the usual June date in. It was in March that year. And I think a couple of participants in the pro field had to pull out last minute. And I have a really good friend, Eric Gilson, and still a good friend to this day. Email Wadi or message us saying, we've got a couple spots open. And so I that I couldn't turn down similar to you guys. It was just literally a bucket list race. The last thing I thought was that I would win it. And also my sister was living in the Bay Area at the time. I was like, perfect, I can visit her. Just go to San Francisco. I had been once before, I think so many other things. And then for the race to go as it did was just crazy.

What makes it such a bucket list race? What makes it so special?

I think just one, you're in San Francisco, which anytime I think you can shut down such a massive city and race in it is so cool. Obviously the swim start alone. You get boated out towards Alcatraz island and you're literally jumping off a boat. And the currents can be crazy. You're swimming, you're not going under the Golden Gate unless you get swept out. But you can see it like you're just swimming with these crazy bridges right there. Just that alone you're like, there's no turning back. Basically. I guess some people can already fear the start of a triathlon. You've never done one. You've got the swim, which tends to be, I think, a lot of people's biggest fear. With try or not water animals on the bike and run, you can bring back your effort level if you need to. But once you're out in the water, like you're out in the water and with Alcatraz, it's a whole other level. There's no turning back. You can't turn around and go back to shore. Like you're literally off a boat, so you have to swim it. So I think that was super, at least terrifying for me. And then the course itself is really hard and the bike is super hilly. The. The typical course. And the same with the run. It's almost like an off road run, honestly, between all of the steps in the course, the sand ladder, you're running on the beach for not just like 500 yards, like you're on the beach for almost two miles. So it's just, it's almost more to me like an. Not an exterra, but like an off road type mix. Combined with the fact you're in San Francisco, it's just, I think everything about it, it's just so iconic.

We just had the T100 racing last weekend at Escape from Alcatraz. I have to ask, having seen their swim star, did you jump or did you dive?

I jumped. I've done it twice and both times I jumped plugging my nose and holding my goggles on.

What allowed you to win that race, which because I. We're going to circle back to swimming not being your favorite, what allows you to win that race when you said it wasn't really a race that you should have won?

Yeah, I think so. The swim, I knew it would be a deficit. I didn't know how bad. I think I honestly, I cannot remember what it was. Now coming out of the water, I want to say it was either four minutes or six minutes back from the lead, which for me is standard. Maybe not over that short of a distance. That's usual for an Ironman. If the front women would get out around that, minus Lucy, of course, like that 53, 54 minute, I'm getting out in that like 57, 58. Hearing that deficit wasn't unusual. I guess under like an Olympic distance, maybe that was big. The bike course, we had spent the three days prior just going over and over. My husband was a pro cyclist back in the day and he's got that cycling side of like the littlest things matter. Your gearing selection, your wheel choice. Like he's always had me so dialed on the bike side of things. I actually raced my road bike there just because of the hill climbs, the descending, the corners. So I knew that course so well by the time we got to race day and then on the run side, I think again they had moved the race date earlier that year. To March and I was still not in like base building phase. But I had been doing so many hill reps that early on in the season just hills and climbing and strength running and compared to later in the season when maybe I would shift more to the speed work and getting the paces up, it was, I was coming off of just running tons of strength type running. And so to get onto that run course it felt like the training I had just been doing for January and February. So I think just those two, the bike run combo and then yeah, just coming. I think with the racing, I've done it for so long now. It's just sometimes you have those days and everything comes together and it's. You literally can't put your finger on it. Like why was it that day over a different race? And I think I just, yeah, it all came together on the day out there.

So Heather, for those people that don't know, can you describe what this sand ladder is? Because I think that's the one thing that people often one of the things other than the, the amazing swim that people talk about. And have you got any tips for climbing that sand ladder or certainly running with. In the sand?

Yeah, it's funny ever. Like everyone says, okay, you drop down onto the beach and you make a left and you have to go out almost a mile and then it's literally U turn and you go back the other way and everyone's oh, go down by the beach and run on the harder sand. But they specifically say like you're not supposed to do that. You have to stay on the right side of the, the course. But you can still try to get as far down as you can. And then on that way back, running in kind of the wet, more packed sand helps the sand ladder itself, it's basically, I don't know how many stairs. It's a long way. It's not just like up 10 stairs. Like it is a good, I don't know, like seven, eight minute climb. Like you're just going upstairs, there's a rope on the side. So I guess I just remember I used that rope almost more than my legs. Like just pulling yourself up and moving your legs as you pulled yourself out seemed to help the most. But everyone talks about that. But then you crest the stairs, you continue uphill for maybe another mile and then you have to go back down other stairs on the backside. So then there's more stairs. And on that set as well, I just used the rope and was almost like flinging myself down them before you get down to the marina green area. And that's your final, like, couple miles back.

It sounds a bit more horrific than I thought it was, actually, with a number of stairs. Yeah, that's a good practice. Doing some hill climb, I guess.

It does sound aw. But hard work.

Yeah, it's. You're all out. Your heart rate is redlined the whole day, that's for sure.

I mean, you've taken part and competed in so many different types of sports, but thinking about the different races or competitions that you've been in, where would you say that you've really learned the most? Whether that's in a specific sort of defeat, so to speak, or whether that's in a win or perhaps just learning the most from a race and being neither defeated or winning.

I feel like it's always the defeat, the bad days, the horrible races that you learn the most for sure. And you learn in those situations when a race goes poorly, what you did wrong, whether it's your nutrition or you weren't prepared properly for the course, and then, like, you take that into your next races, into your training and to prepare better for the next ones ahead. But then that doesn't mean that all of a sudden you're not going to have another bad one. But I think for the most of us, it's okay that use those days that don't go well, and then that is what really keeps your drive going to nail it the next time. I know every time I have a bad day, I'm more motivated than ever. And if that had been a good day, maybe I would have be going into the next training block a little bit more laissez faire. Like, I mean, I just nailed it. Like, I could just keep doing this versus you get fired up because you're, like, mad at yourself that it didn't go well. Yeah, I would say it's those days that. And I think it's those days, too, that I've kept. I've been racing over 15 years now. Keep you going because you're always searching for that next, like, greatest day, I think.

I suspect if we had Daniela on the podcast today, she'd be saying, I have just as many bad days as you might materialize. Different might be in a different space. But I reckon if we could have any pro on here, they're still learning from bad days on.

Yeah, yeah.

True, true.

I think it's really interesting now. I think so. What you've done incredibly over your sporting career is pivot from one sport to the next, whether it's soccer, whether it's ice hockey, whether it's triathlon, whether it's gravel racing, ultramarathons. I'm just really intrigued by the mental challenge. I know when, when I did my first ultra, it was like, oh, my goodness, this is like a massive step away from the comfort zone here. How do you deal with that complete reset and switching sports and learning, going back, right back to the start. What are the mental tactics use for that?

Honestly, I feel like the transitions that I've made or popping between some different sports, it's almost more like refreshing than challenging, to be honest, because, yeah, early in my sporting career, all of growing up and then junior high school, college, it was all soccer and ice hockey, and that was my life. Soccer and ice hockey at the highest levels and. But then post college for both of those, there really wasn't many opportunities. And I just feel. I feel lucky to have stumbled on triathlon when I did, which was literally right when I was finishing up college. And so I was almost by luck found this new passion that I just was. It was a new challenge and it was something that helped me just move on immediately from this career and then obviously just, yeah, went full in on try. And that turned into this entire career of professional triathlon until a few years ago where, yeah, I think I was starting to maybe feel a little. I've struggled in the past to talk about somewhat leaving triathlon of the right term. I don't want to say I was bored with it, but I was. I had done it for so long and it was just. I was just on repeat. I was just doing the same things. And I think you reach a certain level and you're looking for that, literally that 0.5% and you're not seeing the progress anymore, or you're just. You're doing the same races, you're doing the same training, you're doing the same things. And I stumbled onto trail running in general and the gravel cycling during COVID And Covid just opened my eyes to these two things. And I was like, this is so fun. This is just incredible. So it was, yeah, it all came together at once. And then meanwhile, you have these two sports I fell in love with during COVID and all the opportunities there. And it was again, just this, like, rebirth almost, with a new. With new goals and new opportunities.

We've talked about this a little bit on the podcast with both event organizers and people, and particularly people migrating from triathlon to ultra running. And. And Covid is to blame, if that's a right term for it, because I think it made people realize. But also this was a trend that was happening pre Covid as well, wasn't it? Do you think that this is going to continue expecting to see other professional triathletes shifting towards trail racing, gravel riding, etc.

I think there's certainly like a subset in the tri world that would be interested or want to try. I also think there's a good majority who probably aren't like. I think it's just a different sport lifestyle and I think it will. I do think there are going to be more and more triathletes knowing they have that cycling or cycling if they want to try gravel but running background to give this a go and with it blowing up. And I'm curious to see if with Ironman's involvement in UTMB that that's obviously bringing more eyes from the tri world as well.

I think there is that interest and, and we are seeing more and more triathletes move into the world of ultra. But I'm also thinking about people that are wanting to keep their toes in kind of both places, whether it's triathlon and a bit of gravel or, or ultra. Do you think that you know, from a training and, and competing perspective, do you think that you can do both simultaneously? Is that possible in terms of racing and competing, do you think?

I think so. I think now that I've done both or I guess all three, I would have. I probably would have worked the gravel and the trail into my Ironman training. I think at certain times of the year, I guess I never really worked gravel too much in. I was always scared of going down or crashes and to be fair I would still be a little bit hesitant of that. I can't. I've been racing now off road a year and a half since Kona 2022 and I can't tell you the number of times I've gone down or tripped or crashed to work in like a fun day on trails where I don't think the trails either, unless you're pounding downhill super hard, you find like a more gentle course. I think it's easier on your body than you go out and do your long Ironman prep run where you're doing mile reps in there tempo efforts, you're going to pull up sore than maybe like a fun trail run. I think just long days on the feet or long days in the saddle. I would have totally worked them in within my triathlon.

That's really interesting because that comes back to the advice that Jeff Galloway gave me. Right. I think it was like episode number two of the podcast. In order to improve your marathon time, you should go out and do a very slow 30 miler before you come up to your marathon. And I did it before my first marathon. And then it's never featured in my triathlon training since, other than around the ultras. So I think that's really interesting advice. What is the longest ultra you've done so far, as in running?

I've done two 100 milers. It was the same course, but I did have 100 twice.

Now, how do you feel that compares in terms of difficulty both physically and mentally to an Ironman?

I think it's harder mentally because there's no escaping the hundred miles you have ahead of yourself. There's no, okay, once I get out of this swim, I get to bite. And then once I get off the bike, I get to run. And that time out there, like, while you're out there, a long time for both. Like, you get to switch things up. You might feel good in one or bad in one, but then all of a sudden you feel great in the next. Like, there are different things, but I can't put my finger on which one's harder physically, but mentally, I think to keep running when you're that, I guess, broken down, I think the marathon is short enough. In an Ironman, you do, of course, you turn up. I've never turned up more sore than some of the faster Ironman marathons because you're on pavement, you're on road running fast. But the, the trail run at mile 80 is painful.

How have you had to adjust your mental strategy, would you say, in terms of racing Ironman versus racing an ultra or trial event? Because you were just mentioning there about you just have to keep running. Like, how have you changed that up?

The thing I've been struggling the most within the trail running is that the thing with me in triathlon is I was always one of the last female pros out of the water. So I was chasing all day. I'm coming from behind, chasing down as many women as I can. And in the trail running, I'm able to start on an even level not having a poor swim. So I just keep going out too hard because I'm like, I can already be in the lead, like, and then, yeah, 20 miles later, I see, okay, that was. Maybe I didn't need to go out like that. So it's mentally has been trying to learn the pacing. I had one mission in triathlon and that was just to work my way up as. As far as I could each day. And this one is different. It's like learning the race, learning the sport, and learning my pacing.

And is there something specific that you've put into place in terms of mental strategy for racing? Like is there a mantra that you have or is there something that when things get really tough, you've got something that you're focusing on?

I still break things down in the trail runs as I used doing triathlon. The majority of those triathlon mental skills were always based around Kona. No matter what part of the year it was, all my training, it was always like, if I'm doing hill reps in my head, I'm getting up Polani. If it's like a long tempo run, rolling hills, I'm like, you're out on the Queen K. You're getting out of the energy lab right now. And so I still pretend like I'm doing that in my trail racing. So for instance, like in Kona, the race doesn't start until you're up on the Queen K. Like the race hasn't started. Just, do you still feel fine? Do you still feel okay? So I still relate a lot back to my triathlon racing and just trying to work on, yeah. That pacing side of things. And when it's time to go, when it's, are you going too hard? Just always checking in with yourself. Same on the nutrition side. Have you been eating? Like all I, I still use all of the skills that I learned throughout my triathlon in these two new sports as well.

Honick clearly stood out as obviously it wasn't the race that you picked out as your favorite performance, but it clearly had a massive impact on you. So two questions relating to that. One is why doesn't doing the world championships in Nice have that same appeal? And secondly, for somebody I me that's going to race Kona for the first time in October, what would be your standout piece of advice for succeeding in Kona?

Kona was everything to me. It was what got me into the sport. I had seen the NBC coverage, I think sometime during college, and I'm like, that is crazy. It was this epic adventure that was broadcasted, I think, in all these sports. The fact that we have live coverage of events, that's what draws people in. Because you can see the island, the ocean, like, it just looks so crazy. Yeah, it just became that event that I always wanted to do well at every race, but every race came second to doing well in October. So if I had to sacrifice skipping certain races or skipping trips or different things when it came to that Kona prep time, like everything was towards that day. I think my advice for Kona, the heat is huge. I know everyone says that if you can be prepared for that heat, it does hit you, even people who do well in the heat. I found that if I prep correctly, I'm able to perform pretty well in the heat. But even as someone that can, it still, you can't hide from it. Like you're out on that Queen K and it gets hot. So to not only prep your body to deal with the heat, but prep your strategy out there, whether it's cooling, hydrating your ice down the chest. Those strategies, people skip them early on in the day and it will come back to bite you.

So, obviously, in Great Britain, we are not blessed with the finest of weather.

Right.

So any strategies that you can recommend to help my body adapt to the heat without having to leave the UK?

I mean, you can sit in the sauna 30 minutes a day. That will obviously get you used to sitting in that. Just that feeling, getting that need to start sweating. Supposedly. I'm not. I don't have a science degree or anything with that stuff. But it's technically, if you can get your body to sweat quicker than it's used to by constantly doing the sauna, you want your body sweating because that's how it cools you off. That by doing sauna over and over, you're teaching your body to break that sweat earlier, to cool yourself off earlier. And then similar with training, doing not your key sessions, but you can do some just like aerobic sessions in a room that you can possibly get heated up higher, whether it's a bathroom or a small closet or something where you can get that heat up and just again, getting used to cycling or running in. Yeah, that hot, drier air.

Thank you.

You've obviously raced in lots of different sort of competitions and sports, but from a nutrition perspective, over your career so far, what would you say you really changed within your nutritional strategy? So, moving from ironman into the world of ultra gravel biking, what have you found has really changed across those years?

Early in my tri career, I was just all over the place in terms of, yeah, nutrition on race day. I mean, I've been with Herbalife as my nutrition sponsor for almost 15 years now. They've been with me since day one. So I use their electrolyte drink for everything in terms of that. But early on in my career, I used to always take in solid foods. Just random. Like everyone says. Oh, don't change anything that you do in Training on race day. And so for me, when we would stop to refill bottles or at a gas station, I would grab like a Snickers or a candy bar or who knows what. And it was just. Yeah, not very specific. And I think over my career, I dialed that in to try to go mostly liquid calories if I could. So I would load my bottles up higher density to try to get the calories in more liquid or gels. And that became my Ironman strategy, just in terms of the ease to digest things. And I think you develop that year after year of what works for you. And obviously the last few years have been that higher carb push, getting that in. And I tried that and I guess refined it. But to your question, like, I haven't. It's almost like I've kept the fueling plan I learned through in Ironman and what I can tolerate as I've come into these two new sports.

Both Claire and I can relate to the craving of salt. When we were doing an ultramarathon down in Cornwall, I was shoveling down salted peanuts as quicker than anyone could give them. And Claire was on the salt vinegar crisps.

I think I found. Yeah, found a packet of crisps. Amazing. Yeah. I've heard you talk, actually, on another podcast about. Which was of great interest to me, actually, you mentioned that actually there was a point in your career, and I can't remember which coach this was with, that you learned really that you needed to eat more in training and actually how that really changed things for you. I see it quite often that people under fuel. Can you tell us a little bit about how. How actually eating enough or building yourself enough really changed your training at that point in time?

Yeah. I think it's funny, within my, like, journey, again, it was. I was coming off of ice hockey primarily early on in my career, and I was. Yeah, I mean, I won't sugarcoat. I was probably 30 pounds heavier than I am today. And so it was this, like, transition of, okay, I went through a phase of maybe eating a little bit less. I was seeing the progress as I lost a little bit of that muscle weight from ice hockey. I certainly didn't need to be the same size I was during ice hockey. So it just, I think, opened my eyes to it and then that. And it's just showed the importance of practicing the nutrition in training so that when you get to race day, you've done that and your body knows what's coming and your stomach can handle it. So it was that. Yeah, starting at one point, and progressing and then seeing, okay, this is beneficial and this is going to prep me best for race day.

If you would like to dial in your own nutrition and get your race nutrition sorted, then you can book a coaching call with me. And if you click on the link in the show notes below, you will be able to book that call.

You and your husband make a formidable team in terms of, he takes care of all the marketing side of you as a, as an athlete, I believe. And I'd never realized until we started these podcasts how much you guys essentially run your own business where you are the center of that business. And this, the social media piece and you know, your YouTube channel and all that sort of stuff is a really important part of what you do, isn't it? From a sponsorship point of view, but also attracting enough attention. How do you find that kind of part of the job, needing to be in front of people as much as you can be? And also what have you learned that maybe other people that want to, whether it's in business or just in like becoming an influencer of whatever form, what have you learned on that journey that's really helped you succeed at that? Because I genuinely think you are succeeding at it.

Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. I honestly need to attribute that entirely to my husband, Wadi. Yeah, I, I get asked this other times and I always am just like, I haven't had nothing to do with that from the beginning. Like, I feel so, just grateful and, and lucky to have met him when I did. I was just out of college, I was just starting in triathlon and he had already worked in the industry for 5, 10 years on the other side of things, on the marketing side, working with companies and their marketing strategies. So as I'm coming into my journey as a professional athlete, he's presenting to me the other side of things. Like, oh, you want a sponsor, what are you going to provide them? So it's always been this lesson of it's a two way street, like they're helping you with whatever it is, product, money, support. Like, how are you helping them? It's not just you take their free bike, it's what are you going to provide them? And always showing to partners that side of things so that they feel like they're getting that return on their investment. It's not just like you're taking. So him having come from the other side and just ingraining that in me was literally day one. And I feel so lucky to have that because I was this kid out of college, no clue, probably would have just taken the free stuff and been like, sweet, thanks. But to have that lesson ingrained as a 23 year old and then moving into a career and seeing the importance of that and seeing, yeah. Working with partners together and giving them that marketing that in return for the support they're giving you and I guess adapting with things. Yeah. Came out in terms of like the social media. I remember the first three, four years I raced like there was no Instagram. Like early on Wadi was already doing videos for me on this little like flip cam and actually I guess there was Twitter because we would put them up on Twitter like little 10 second things. I think there was forget that other app that was out for a bit. We had a blog like I would do the race report blogs. There was always that like how can we share the journey early on in the ways that were available then. And then Instagram came about and it became about getting those photos, the pictorial journey that we could share. And Wadi would come out with me on every training session and take photos, edit them, put together mini videos. And then as YouTube grew like he literally all of COVID again. Lucky. Just one of those situations where we were in lockdown with Eric Lagerstrom and Paula Finley just in our vans. Yeah. Camping out and being outside, just away from everything. And Eric helped show Wadi how to edit video, use all the software. So then Wadi learned how to do all of that. So he's literally done everything on the marketing side in terms of. Yeah. Just adapting as things grew and became necessary and what we continue to do today to that has literally kept this going for us. So again, just all credit to my husband from day one of knowing, okay, it's a two way street and it's about what can you also provide those who are helping you out.

I think there's a really great lesson there in that. What clearly he's very forward thinking in terms of this is a new platform out. We're going to, we're going to adopt that. The more important thing there is he really knew what your ideal client was. And your ideal client, for any business owner listening to this, your ideal client wasn't the consumer, was it? Your ideal client was the sponsor. We really know what our ideal client is looking for and we're going to, we're going to deliver that. Now I think it's really interesting because I think ultimately that's what strategic marketing plans deliver is that they go, this is the right person. We're going to target this. So I think that's, I think that's really interesting and it's great advice. Now I alluded to it slightly earlier on, but you weren't that enthusiastic about the swimming part of triathlon, were you? I think probably an understatement. What amazed me is that you could actually become a professional triathlete and become as successful as you became in triathlon. When you didn't really start swimming until your mid-20s, did you? What did allow you to get to the point where you could become a professional triathlete? Having started swimming so late, I think.

Early on in my career it was. I would see enough improvements. Not even day to day by any means, but like season to season. It kept me somewhat motivated to keep finding that. I think early on in my swim career for triathlons. Early on I focused mostly on half Ironmans before I moved up to the Iron man. So half iron Man. Early on I would get out of the water and I don't know, 38 to 40 minute. And then the next season I found I was down to 35, 36. And then it was like the next season I was down to 32 minute swim 31. And then as I reached that peak time frame in my career, I was hitting like yeah, 27, 28, 29 minute enough to make that kind of second main group. I was never really the front, but it was enough improvement that it made me okay going every day and just working so hard just to find those seconds. But then it was those final like four to five years again. Covid really affected it because I felt like I was starting at ground zero, having to be out of the pool that year. We found random bodies of water, but had spent all this time and energy and money working with coaches. And then all of a sudden we couldn't swim. But right before that, probably those final three years, I was swimming the same no matter what I did. And that became the struggle point where it's just like, why can't I find that next little bit?

What motivated you in terms of the swimming? Like were you swimming on your own? Are you swimming with large groups of people? What sort of kept you going?

Yeah, honestly, those last few years in try, I had to find those groups and I feel so lucky that I did. We had a great group in Tucson under this coach. He's fondly known as Aqua Bears, but he had a great group. And so every morning it was just like knowing I had other people to chase or push me. Like Lionel's part of that group. And it's hard to not be motivated to try your hardest when you're surrounded by other people who are also trying as hard as they can to find that little bit. And so the groups and then Paul and Eric, I split time between Tucson and Bend, Oregon. And if they weren't down in Tucson with us up in Bend, like it holds you accountable. 8am at the pool every day and I would just show up and get my ass kicked by them just every day. And I'd be like, you know what, you're getting better. You're getting better. Like you're chasing them, just. But I, if I didn't have that, it was starting to get harder and harder to just go to the pool alone, take off 4100. So those final years, I think the group dynamic, having those friends, having those people that push you and hold you accountable, whether it's friends, training partners or a coach, that became huge for me.

In the swim, I can really relate to that. I have a swim spa at home, so in theory I can swim at home. But so much more compelled to drive to swim with my mates and then have a coffee with them afterwards than. It just takes a lot more discipline to do it on your own, doesn't it? And I think out of all three of the disciplines, the swimming it seems to be the tribe makes more impact than any.

Having that the right people around you for sure helps to motivate you, doesn't it?

Really does. Now I know that you're not a massive reader of biographies and sporting books and things like that from what I've heard on other interviews, but I'm still going to ask you for a book recommendation and it doesn't have to be anything related to the sport or anything. Is there one book that you think stands out that you found yourself recommending or you found really helped you on your journey?

No, I actually do love sport books and yeah, sport history does, but like I just find I'm always so tired that my mind can only digest just literally these quick beach read type books that take absolutely no processing energy. But you haven't given me this. I actually have three recommendations and two are just. I have to give them the shout out because as someone who, as a female athlete and then someone's, oh, should I do a, a book sometime? Like, I like to read others to then get an idea of how they're done. And I think both Des Linden and Lauren Fleshman, their books I think were well done in their own ways. I think Des's book, I loved how she did it, I love how she wrote it and doing each chapter as a mile during that Boston Marathon win that she had. I just loved that setup. And then Lauren Fleshman's book Good for a Girl. I mean I already read a lot of the writing she puts out early on. She used to have a blog, but she's such a good writer. And then how she presented just a lot of the kind of women in sport ideas without it being over the top. I think sometimes things can be a little bit too much. And I think she presents it in her book like so perfectly. Those two just really stand out. In terms of a book I literally go back to all the time reading. It's called Relentless by Tim Grover. I just love that one. It's some more of the mental side. NBA worked with a lot of the top NBA players. Michael Jordan, but just I like the no bs, just this is what it takes at the top level. This is the mental side of things. This is the sacrifices you make. And just I love that book.

Brilliant. I think all of those have been mentioned at some point by other people. So that. No, this is fantastic because that's me think particularly good for a girl. I think that's been mentioned a few times and I need to be. I am. I have two daughters. So I need to be going and reading that because I think that that sounds like a fantastic book. But they're, they're all brilliant recommendations. Thank. We also have a closing tradition on the podcast where the previous guest asked the next guest question. So our previous guest was Matt Fitzgerald, I think. Claire, you've got Matt's question lined up, haven't you?

Yeah, it's a good one. Matt has asked what blind spots have you had? What helped you to see it and how has it changed your approach?

So many blind spots every season, every year. So it's tough to be like what blind spot? I think my mind when I read this question just went to really early on in my career of just all the little things that I primarily what I mentioned with my husband, Wadi of just. Yeah. Blind spot of oh cool, someone wants to sponsor me. Here's some free shoes. No, it's a two way street nutrition side of things. You need to eat, you need to fuel your body in terms of equipment. I just remember early on blind spot like I treated my stuff horribly. Like my bike was always dirty, I didn't take care of it. And he would get on me like how do you think that looks to your sponsors? And in my head I was like, oh, a dirty bike. Like they're going to know how hard I'm training. I'M just training so much to me that it shows them that it's showing disrespect to things that they're giving you and the support they're giving. Like, you need to take care of your bike, you need to wash it. Those are just, like, little things. But I just feel like there were so many lessons my whole journey that I attribute a lot of those lessons to my husband. And then shifting how you approach sport as a profession and trying to get better at that each day, each year, each season, every sponsor partner you get to work with. So it's been an ongoing.

Just to circle back to where we started on a bucket list race with Alcatraz. But now that you're doing gravel and Ultra, what's on the bucket list ahead for you? What haven't you ticked off that you're looking forward to ticking off?

Oh, my goodness. I know we talked about this before going on air, but there's so many. The bucket list just keeps getting longer. And especially as I add, like, the new sports, because, yeah, anytime I see a cool event, I'm like, I need to do that. Like, utmb, I need to do that Gravel, like unbound. I just race unbound. But okay, the Unbound XL course, or I watch the YouTube videos, like a Lachlan Morton video doing the Tour Divide, or right now, like, Leo Wilcox riding around the world. Like, I see all these different things people do and I'm like, I need to do that. Or I need to. Yeah, Ride this course or ride across the US or. I definitely have ideas for some big projects that I want to attempt, so I think it's just this slow. Hey, try this year. Try these events and just slowly work through those bucket list races and just general projects that I want to go after as well.

I'm sure it's going to be an entertaining journey for you and an entertaining journey for us to watch. Because, you know, what you've achieved in Ironman is amazing. But what I think was also incredible is how much you achieved in Ultra and Grout. I mean, let's face it, you've left one sport and you've gone off and picked two. Not one sport, but two. And you're excelling in both. It's absolutely brilliant. I'm looking forward to watching the journey continue. Thank you so much for coming onto the podcast, Heather. Loads of brilliant takeaways there. And, yeah, I wish you every success with both of those sports and whatever else it is you pick next.

Thank you guys so much. It's been so much fun. Being on, I really appreciate it.

It.

So what did you make of the interview with Heather?

It was great. Also, how many sports does she do?

It's incredible, isn't it?

I'm really great to kind of hear how she has moved so seamlessly into not only one, but two sports.

I mean, she's actually moved way more, but. Yeah, I mean, into two sports now from Ironman, but that, you know, she has the soccer and ice hockey background. She very nearly made the Olympics for ice hockey. But she's also, you know, a skier and then obviously an iron man. I mean, yeah, didn't specifically ask her the question, but I wonder how that kind of diversity of experience across different sports has helped her, even when it's kind of something very different. I think, you know, like the ice hockey, I mean, I think they're only on the. On the ice for 45 seconds at a time because it's so. So high intensity, so intense. But I dare say that's amazing for building your quads, which is probably pretty useful when you come to doing ultramarathons.

Just the sheer competitive mindset as well, you know, no matter what sport that crosses being able to compete and get something finished, whether it's a, you know, you're on and off the ice every 40 seconds. Yeah, that. That must play a huge part. I thought it was really interesting as well to dive in a bit deeper about, you know, how professional athletes have to be their own marketeers and, you know, a little bit more about how they're. How they work with creating their own brand so that they can work with other brands.

It really is like running any other business, I think. You've got to market yourself, they've got to market themselves. In fact, I remember having a conversation with Jackie Herring about how, because she was a mum, she just had to accept that she didn't have the capacity to be able to do that. And so she always had to accept that she was never going to get the sponsorship that other athletes would get because she just knew she couldn't perform that role because of the time constraints. So it's interesting. But equally, I suppose it shows the benefit of good teamwork, doesn't it? Heather's husband, Waddy, doing that because that's his expertise, so she just left it to him.

You know, more and more athletes, as we're hearing, it's more difficult now to get partnerships with businesses. And I know that was something we. We talked about actually, with a couple of athletes post Covid in terms of, you know, not. Not as much investment in sports and things and obviously how much you've got to remember about giving back. You know, what's in it for them, what's in it for the partnership, the company that's, that you're partnering with as well. But it really is like essentially, well, it is a full time job. You're training and then, then when you finish training you're running your business, aren't you?

And what were your thoughts on what she said about nutrition? One of the podcasts I listened to, which must have been about a year old, she was still taking three gels an hour for a hundred mile race. So that's like 36 gels or whatever it is. But she's obviously now coming full circle and going back to eating more solid foods. What were your thoughts on, on the, the race nutrition strategy?

I think, you know, I think one of the things that she sort of alluded to was she still got that background of what she does for Ironman in terms of, you know, to actually get that number of calories and you're going to have to get it in, in a liquid, a liquid form to get it in. But actually how important real food becomes in those latter stages of the very long races purely down to fatigue. So yes, you might get it in a gel but actually from a taste fatigue perspective which happens as you know from racing ultras and Ironman actually there's a point at which you need real food as well. And we didn't delve too much into it actually, did we? But I think the psychological element of that certainly comes into it. So it'll be interesting to have to have asked her a little bit more, a little bit more about that. But really the power of fueling yourself enough for doing long training because that's something that I'd heard and she added to really in terms of getting enough energy in during your training session.

I completely get the needing solid foods thing because so I, I know we've talked about this with my own race strategy but I specifically want to have a couple of physical bars on the bike. I could get through the bike without them, but my experience is that then I'm left towards the run feeling like I'm really hungry, you know, so that just kind of keeps. And it's probably only a mental thing. Ultimately I get the same calories in through gels, but just a couple programs my brain to say you have eaten some food and therefore you're going to be fine later on. And certainly on the ultra, towards the end of that we were on ham and cheese sandwiches and crisps and nuts and everything that was salty, you know.

You were at a lower intensity of course as well, so you're able to tolerate it. But no, that was, that was really interesting.

The last thing I thought was really interesting is that even though she came to swimming at a very late stage and she never really enjoyed it, she still was a professional athlete. That included a significant part of her time being swimming. So I think that's for not. I mean, that shows mental resilience, if nothing else. I mean, yeah, to be knowing that you're going to be getting out behind all the leaders every race is challenging, but to actually got to the point where she was competitive, I think is amazing. So I think that's really impressive. More bucket list races to add to our bucket lists again. And some great advice in terms of transitioning towards more ultras, which I know is definitely something I want to do. So, yeah, good luck with your training, Claire, and for everyone else, keep on training. You want to find out more about Heather, the best place to find her is her YouTube channel or on Instagram where she is H. Jackson Racing. And I also, at the start this episode, I promised you a gift linked to marketing. So I mentioned during the episode, actually we talked a little bit about marketing towards your ideal client and really knowing what your ideal client is so that you could tailor the marketing to achieve that. That's one of the tools that we use within the Trusted team if you'd love to know how the trusted team could help you grow your business, and that's to grow the business in terms of revenue, but also in terms of the amount of time you have off whilst enjoying it more. Then if you go to the Trusted team website, which is the Trusted do team, you can actually book a free coaching call with me to see how we can help you grow your business while working less and enjoying more. If you want us to keep getting amazing guests onto the business of endurance podcast, we don't ask for you to pay for us, we don't ask for patronage. All we ask for is that you subscribe to the podcast, ideally on Apple, give us a five star rating because it shows us you care and if you've got time, leave us a comment. One word is fine, something like inspiring or amazing or something like that, but we really do appreciate it and it will help us to continue to deliver amazing guests on what we hope you find to be an amazing podcast. Thanks very much, Jeff and Chloe from Big Moose Charity we featured in Episode 1 of Season 7 made such a great impact on the both of us. We decided to make them our charity sponsor for season seven. Now they really touched me in the sense that I lost my brother in law to suicide in Wales and these guys are working their socks off to help prevent situations like that. Claire, why did Jeff and Chloe really make an impact on you?

Coming from a background in clinical nutrition and working in mental health, to me also it hit a spot in terms of the charity and how they are building therapy to help support people with mental health difficulties. And They've saved over 50 lives now and already met their first target of a million and their new target, 15 million that they're trying to get to.

It's absolutely incredible. Incredible. And 15 million is a huge target they've set themselves. But they're speeding up help that people in desperately in need get and this help is needed more than ever. And I know how problematic mental health issues are in today's world. So if you think you can help Big Moose Charity and they're particularly looking for corporate partners to help them raise that 15 million, if you think you can help them or leave them into a company that can help them, the best place to go to is Big Moose Charity Co. Or you can find them on Instagram as Big Moose Charity. Or you can even email Jeff at Jeff Big Moose code.