Taming the Ultras with Kerry Sutton

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And at that point I thought, you know what? I've always been looking for the place where I think I pushed myself to my limit. Have I? And I remember had a really rational conversation myself. How am I at that point? Me stuck in this rock, tired, not sure I'm even on the right path. It's about four in the morning, there is no mobile reception. My GPS is bit dicey. Can't trust anything. Having have I reached my limit?

That was Kerry Sutton and this episode is Taming the Ultras. In this episode of the tribathlon podcast, I got the opportunity to chat to Kerry Sutton. Now, Kerry is this inspiring, amazing lady that balances being a mum of lots of children, but also achieving much. So she came into running, really not enjoying running at all. She came into it because she wanted to do a triathlon, but has gone on to do Marathon de Sable as well as many, many ultra races, including Jungle ultras, and also leading the Spine Race until near disaster happened. And that's a fascinating story in itself. And what she learned from that story as well is incredible. And what we can learn from it is really useful. So there's so much to talk about here. How she balances doing ultras while being mum, how she deals with running in the heat and also sleep deprivation on things like the Spine Race, as well as how she gets herself motivated. So finding motivators to go off and achieve amazing things. And Kerry's now a coach as well, so I know you're going to enjoy this conversation. As much as I enjoy chatting to.

Kerry Sutton.

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So Kerry, welcome on to the triathlon podcast. Thank you very much for joining me. I can't wait to find out more about you. So for those people that don't know you, can you give us a potted history of how did you get into running and what events have you done along the way and just kind of tell us a bit about your story.

Okay. Hi. Thank you very much. Very honored to be asked to join your podcast. My, my potted history. Go back to school, I suppose we were, I was in most of the sports clubs there and very much a team player, you know, enjoyed hockey and netball and all that variety of things. Did a bit of swimming and that stayed where it was until I went to university and found rowing. Rowed in an eight and loved it. Found a fair degree of success there and happened to be in a boat with three women who went on to be blues. So we had quite a strong crew and won the university's championship the year that I was rowing. But I'd only been rowing for a year. So I mean I really was lucky to be right place, right time and I fitted the bill. So that took me onto a different sort of competitive level. I stayed rowing on and off, but it was getting harder. When I had children we moved over to Sydney and it was whilst I was living there I thought, you know, this sort of running thing, I can see the benefit of it. When you've got children and limited time, there's no, not much required except a pair of trainers. And whereas rowing takes you out for quite a lot of time and it's generally early when the kids are all up, you know that those sort of early doors hours when there's no one else to look after them. So I managed to shift rowing into a two months every year which was just fantastic. There was one little regatta that we all got ourselves ready for and that satisfied that need. But I started to run and I have to say that running has never been something I particularly enjoyed and hence why I came to it much later. And I think I fell into the classic, tried to run every time I went out the door. Thought it had to be fast and if it wasn't fast, it wasn't the runner. And slowly just couldn't see the love for it. So decided I was going to do a triathlon before I was 40 and in order to do a triathlon had to therefore pick up some running. Biking, I've always loved and that was easier. I could do it on a turbo whilst the kids were in the house. I could watch them playing and swimming. Like I said, I used to swim competitively so that wasn't too much of a tricky one to bring back into my life. But running was going to be my Achilles heel. But I did, you know, as I would advise my clients now to sort of let go of the speed thing, the pace thing, the need to feel that unless you're going fast, you're not a runner. And I did a walk run strategy. Kept it easy, made sure I was out, you know, enjoying the space and time as opposed to any with any pressure and built up my running, managed to do my triathlon. I can remember doing my first 5k, it was only a sprint triathlon and it was. I mean, the exhilaration was amazing. I still remember it now to think that I'd covered that sort of distance and I had to have a walk break in the middle. I mean it was, it was a shocking performance. But the fact was that I got to the end.

Was this still in Australia?

Yes, this is Australia. So I had, I had four little kids at this point. No, I didn't. No, that's wrong. I had two and then soon to have another one. And when I had had my second, just before I got out there, I'd actually done some. Wanted to do the cross Scotland. Well, it was a walk at the time. It's an Oxfam trail walker. We did it in team of four and it was 52 miles across Scotland. It was incredible. My youngest daughter was 18 months at the time. So it was also good weight loss program, but something for me and I loved it. And I remember seeing people at the time and they're running it, I mean they're absolutely. Because people are allowed to run it the opposite way. There would only have been a handful then because we're talking some time ago now. And it was. I was just spellbound. I mean, what, how, why, you know, Never entered my mind you could do such a thing. So did that. Then went to Sydney and found the Oxfam trail walker there as well. And so I thought, well, I'll have another bash at this. At this point, I'd had my fourth child and he was now six months old. And it was one that you went down the east coast of Australia again? Absolutely loved it. Really thought, this is, this is me coming to my element. Endurance is what I can do. So we did a little bit more shorter distance running, 10ks and whatever else, and then came back to England. My youngest would have been, I think he was 18 months at the time, and saw as many people do the Cracknell video on the mds, decided that randomly this is what I was going to do. Called Steve Dietrich the next day, who I didn't know at the time, but I now know very well and said, you know, oh, this is amazing. You know, he must have so many of these calls. People don't appreciate how big this, this event is, or maybe you do now, but again, this was some time ago and I rang around, I was all fizzing around, I was all excited. This is what I want to do. Can I have a place? Is like, you don't. Clearly don't understand. They say you people are on waitlist for two years for this event. So I went away a little bit deflated, but I thought, okay, well, I'll wait. And anyway, he got in touch with me the following day and I think luckily my excitement had worn off and he gave me a charity place which I snapped up and then I had then, I think it was 8 months to get myself from a fairly poor 10k to being able to run the MDS. And there was my love for A, running B, endurance events and C, the power of the running to make a difference in your life started.

And that's incredible, isn't it? Because I was actually in a similar situation. I always described running as sport with all the fun bits taken out. Just didn't, you know. And I only got into running because of triathlon as well. You know, if you're going to do a triathlon, you've got to run at some point. So. But it's incredible that you kind of went from sort of 5, 10Ks up to committing to doing marathon de sable, which is just. I mean, how was mds?

Oh, it was. I mean, it was extraordinary. Beautiful in its simplicity. Because I was naive and to some degree I miss that naivety when I go into races because I did what I thought I needed to do to get me to the end. And I think the way I had approached it was that. Is it arrogant to say this? I don't know. But if. But if these other people can do it, then I must be able to too. You know, I'm built the same. I'm not going to win, I'm going to complete. And I know I can walk a long way, so at the end of the day, I can always fall back on walking. And I know I can, you know, I can endure, so I must be able to do it. And. Yeah, and so that. So that's why I sort of took it on. And I mean, well, it's changed my life. I mean, it's all dramatic, but it really has.

Fantastic. And how was the experience of it? I mean, did you. Were bits falling off your feet and, you know, was it as painful as it appears or kind of get on okay with it?

No, I got on okay. I. My feet. Yeah, I mean, we have blisters, but that's almost something you don't even talk about because you expect that. No, I didn't have the loss of feet or any loss of loss of limb or anything like that. Yes, it was intense, it was hard, it was unforgiving. I went through three pairs of gaiters. Not that I carried two spares, but other people did, so I was able to use those. I was in a tent with. I was the oldest now. Gosh, how old would I have been? I would probably been about 43, 42, something like that. 41 anyway. And I was in a tent with these young guys. I was the oldest by fair whack. And these four young guys were all county cricketers and were fairly convinced that. That I was going to fall apart, being as I was old and female. But anyway, glad to say they were put firmly in their place and I beat them all. But not that it was the competition, because at the time it was. For me, it was a simple case of getting to the end. And I did. And on this limited training where I really was green, I didn't really know much about kit. And I mean, obviously I researched it and there is so much more out there now than there was then. But yeah, being green and I did reasonably well. And I thought, oh, maybe this is my thing, you know, this is what I can do.

So what was next? What came after Marathon de Sabon?

Next was Jungle Ultra in Peru.

So tell us about that. How far is that? And tell me about that. Sounds like an adventure in itself.

It is. And the reason I Chose it was because I grew up in Peru for. I spent four years there and the thought of going back to Cusco where we started and then going up into the jungle going sort of off track was something that really appealed to me. And oh, before this I'd done. I started to dabble in the sort of the ultra world in England. So I, you know, I was doing a couple of multi day, some XNRG runs which are really good. So build ups to multi day races. Anyway, the jungle was. It's the usual. It's a classic, you know, six day multi day where you, you do more or less a marathon each day and then you have a long stage, very like the MDS long stage being 80k thereabouts. They all vary slightly. We were sleeping in hammocks, we carried all our kits. Same, you know, same as the MDs accepting that we had to carry our hammock. You carry all your food and you're entirely sort of self supported in that sense. Which is actually what I love about multi days is it is very, very simple. It is you, your physicality, that is your mental game and, and your pack is what you, what you packed and how wise you were when you packed it and. And nothing else matters, you know, it's just about you and getting yourself to the end. And so it was. I was sort of, I was sort of wondering whether you were going to ask me sort of which of them did I. With my highlights, whatever. And I. And I sort of went through them in my mind.

Sorry, I might do. Yes.

Yeah, well, I sort of went through them in my mind because it's something that actually I haven't really explored and I put that the jungle I loved for its. And for the fear factor. You were very isolated. I ran on my own the entire time. We didn't have any GPS or anything. There was an awful lot of river crossings, fairly fast moving ones. And I thought to myself, at any point, if I'm in real danger, there's not a lot of backup here. And obviously then you start to think, well, I'm a mum of four, is this wise? But the support structure would be that the next runner would come along and pick you up or scoop you up or that you get to a checkpoint where they've got comms. But we also had on that one a lot of torrential rain which if anyone sort of watches David Attba and stuff. Once it rains in the jungle, everything floods very quickly. And so with all of these river crossings, I mean one day we had over 80 river crossings. It was extraordinary. Then the water levels were raising very quickly. We had to all try and evacuate. But you didn't know that until you got to the next checkpoint, at which point they'd hold you back. And I mean, you know, I could go on and I know I'm speaking quite a lot, but that's the whole story in itself because it was quite serious and we had to be evacuated in these massive, huge World War II vans to try and traverse rivers and all sorts of things. So we didn't get to finish that race.

But am I right in saying at the point at which it did finish, you were second in sick from second female. So that's an incredible, you know, going from doing MDS for the first time and really kind of the longest thing you've done before that was sort of 10k to then go becoming second in the jungle Ultra. I mean, how did that happen? How did you go so far up the pecking order so quickly?

Well, just being fairly stubborn, very stubborn. And you know, I mean, the Jungle Ultra, if I'm really honest, it's not, it's not a massive field. We had all sorts of people there. I've got one lady that was, there is now a very, very accomplished marathon runner. And so it was people from all spectrums of running, but I mean, yeah, it wasn't a huge field. I was extremely pleased with second because like you say, I felt that I'd started to show my, my colors. I was starting to believe that maybe I could be something slightly better than just middle of the pack.

Yeah. And so then obviously looking at your website, you've gone off and done a number of other events and you've done incredibly well at them. So which ones of those would you pick out as the highlights, you know, which were the kind of most memorable or your greatest achievements, do you think?

Well, this is where my little, my little bit of thought beforehand is going to pay off because I'd say MDs, you know, your first, your first foray into your sort of newfound passion is always going to hold a special memory, as does, you know, having your first child or whatever else. So MDS has got the first badge Jungle, for its adversity and its fear factor. Then I went to Nepal and that's just the people and the scenery. I mean it's, it's utterly spectacular and you get one of the last checkpoints, you're, you're in this place underneath Everest and I mean it's just, it's just mind bogglingly beautiful and you have to deal with a lot of altitude on that one which is interesting. And Fiji, well, Fiji was incredibly hot and I've never struggled. Well we were just thirsty and properly thirsty and I was, I was getting hot from the inside out. Like my, my core was way too hot and I've never experienced anything like that before. So that sits in another sort of category. But the one which is actually my most recent and the one I didn't finish is the Spine Race. And that blew me onto another level principally because of the distance. And I said at the beginning, you know, I've always felt that I could do these things because if, if others can then then there must be a way. But I really wasn't sure how I could cover 268 miles in January in England. I just wasn't convinced it was something I felt it might push me to.

Madge, tell us what happened in Spine Race then.

Well that was going extremely well. I was trucking along, really, really enjoying it. I found a really good seam, found a good pace, lots of really interesting and particularly quirky people. So some, some fabulous stories from mad people that I met along the way who were also in it and yeah, going well. I wasn't. But the one thing which now looking back I realize in my downfall I wasn't sleeping very well. I hadn't given myself much sleep because it's so this is a multi day obviously 268 miles but it's continuous. So you start when, when you start when the clock starts and the clock doesn't stop until you get to the end. Now you've got seven days in which to do that. I was hoping to do it in sort of four or five and therefore sleep and the amount of sleep you take is going to be quite critical as in my case it was critical because I then lost sort of the function of a rational brain. But it's also critical because if you're lying down you're not moving so you're going to slow yourself down. But yeah, it was just, it was extraordinary, it was amazing. And I was not sleeping mainly because I was in a lot of pain when I tried to lie down. And I've learned from next time I will sleep sitting up. But I got to 72 hours in and I'd only had three hours of sleep so I really was not wildly rational. Anyways came to this bit which was, which was about 160 miles in and I'd gone through a very particular difficult part in the night. I was all on my own. I got Stuck in a few. Few crevasse bits between rocks. And so I was. And at that point I thought, you know what? I've always been looking for the. The place where I think I pushed myself to my limit. Have I? And I remember had a really rational conversation myself. How am I at that point? Me stuck in this rock, tired, not sure I'm even on the right path. It's about 4 in the morning. There is no mobile reception. My GPS is bit dicey. Can't trust anything. Have I reached my limit? I was like, no, no, because I still want to continue. Therefore I am not reached my limit. So that little conversation was fast. But it wasn't long after that, it was probably about two hours after that that unfortunately I made a wrong turn and I made some stupid decisions. I went down a very deep gully and then tried to realize my mistake, tried to climb back out of it and thought, well, I've done some mountaineering, I'll be able to get up over this little bit of a rock face. Which, you know, on the map didn't look too bad. And I knew that I could see then that the path was above me. It was covered in water, it was mossy. I have a pack on. So my, obviously, my balance was affected by that, my lack of sleep. And one thing or another, I ended up. I was stuck on it. I became pretty terrified. It's black. So my head torch, whilst good, wasn't able to give me a perspective of how far down I would fall if I. If I couldn't see where I would be arrested if I was to fall. So that frightened me because, you know, it could go for a long way and it could get steeper. So all of these things sort of combined to me suddenly thinking I'm gonna die. It was good. I was. I was actually terrified I was gonna die. And you know how you have these coincidences in life. And on the way up, James, my partner, and I had been talking and he said, you know, have you heard of this, what three words? I think it's called. What three words? Anyway, the little app that you put on your phone. He said it might be wise that you just stick it on your phone. Which I did. I downloaded it there and then. And it was a saving grace because there was very little mobile reception. So when I rang 999, they couldn't hear me properly, but I could give them my location. The what, what three words? And so they could pinpoint me exactly. And then mountain rescue came and got me. So then a five hour Rescue later. And I was. I was back.

And I mean, that must have been extremely frightening. Being in the dark, clinging to a rock face, not knowing what happens if you fall, but not being able to go any further up.

Yeah.

Has that made you reconsider doing. Would you go back and do the spine race again, or has it made you reconsider? Because I dare say when you were going through that, you were thinking, I've got four children. Have I pushed this too far? Were you thinking that? And I suppose what's been the outcome of you going through that experience?

The outcome is I'm going to have more sleep because then I'll make better decisions. And 100, 110% I'm going back to do it again.

Okay, well, that answers the question.

It absolutely captivated me. I'm determined to go and wrong my right. No, the other way around. Right my wrong. And, yeah, I've learned from my mistake. And like I said, I'll just sleep sitting up next time.

And is there anything else you'll do differently other than sleeping sitting up? Because the whole sleep thing really fascinates. When I was saying, before we started the podcast, I was interviewing Damien hall, and you know, how little sleep he gets for, you know, for example, when he did the southwest coast, 610 miles, I think it was, and he's sleeping for roughly two or three hours a night, every night for 10 days. How do you deal with that sort of sleep deprivation?

I think I'm blessed because I have four children who didn't sleep. Therefore I have years of experience. I mean, there were joking aside, there would have been a good eight years when I didn't sleep a full night's sleep. And that's not because they're particularly difficult. I had one with sleep apnea, then I had one with terrible colic. And just the range of ages meant it was span such a long time. So I think that's helped. And I don't. You know, I try because I appreciate the importance of sleep as an athlete, and I try to get a decent amount of sleep, but I seem to be able to manage on slightly less. I'm not saying it's a good day, but slightly less than others, but I think you need. You know, I'm sure Damien has worked out where that tipping point is, and he will know that he can last on two hours. I hadn't done a race of this nature where I had been trying to go continuously for multiple days without sleep. See, on the jungle and the Nepal Ultras, I barely sleep there's something about my cortisol in my system that means I cannot switch off. And so I get very little sleep in these races. So it is always a war of attrition with me in my mind anyway. But this one was on another level. This obviously you know, you aren't even resting, you're not even sitting down and recovering. So I will, I think I'll practice. In fact I want to try and do. I want to try and do. What's it called? David Goggins came up with this as he would mad thing of. It's 4 by 4 by 48 and I think this will set me start, start me to get in the mindset again of how to sort of work out what sleep I need, what I don't. So it's four miles every four hours for 48 hours which in itself, I mean it gets you to sort of like 48 miles. It's not in itself about the distance, it's about the mind and it's about the endurance on you know, broken sleep but also you know, having to get up and you know, just keep, keep going which I know I can do through multi days but I think it's just the damage it does to your mind when you're not hitting that really deep sleep sleep. So I'm going to, I'm going to see that that will help me.

Well there's also a really good book which is just, just reminded me of which is by a guy called Nick Littlehales and he used to advise, I think he probably still does advise teams like Manchester United and Real Madrid also cycling teams around sleep all about sleep consultancy. But he. The eight hour myth is about how many cycles, how many 90 minute cycles you need over the course of a week. So he will have people playing catch up before and afterwards with the, with the knowledge that they're going to have a lack of sleep in the middle.

Right. Yeah.

So there might be some good strategies around that. I actually read that a while ago. So it wasn't with ultra running in mind but I'm sure there'd be something to be learned from that.

I'll go and dig that out.

And so obviously you said that sleep was your biggest challenge with, with the spine race when. But heat was your biggest challenge with Fiji Again. Again with the benefit of hindsight and I think, I mean in Fiji you were first female there, weren't you? So yeah, whilst it clearly affected you, it wasn't so much that it didn't stop you winning it. What have you learned about how to deal with the heat. And how would you go about that differently if you did that a second time?

The what? The heat. Well, I mean the heat acclimatization, massively important and I did do, I did do some of that. I mean, I haven't got a big heat chamber at my disposal here in Bath, but we do have a bit of a ramshackle one up at the university which I did use and I would use again, saunas as well. I'm not wildly brilliant in saunas, so I think I could certainly build some endurance sitting in those. The other problem in Fiji was that we just couldn't carry enough water. And whilst it wasn't always just the water, it was the internal temperature, it was managing your core. And yeah, so I think my takeaways would be to really focus on building my ability to endure in heat. So with saunas, doing the. And certainly with any MDS people, you know, doing heat acclimatization, mixing it with acclimation and then really looking at clothes, you know, your clothing, what's good clothing for, just for wicking and all that sort of stuff, which, I mean, I do because I wear technical clothes anyway, but I think you could be wiser with your clothes choice. But there is so much coming out now, you know, there's so much more aware of ultra runners and, and this world that's sort of growing really quickly that I think they're going to find more and more ways for us to, to help ourselves in such adverse climates.

I mean, I can't imagine doing that sort of distance in that sort of heat and humidity. I mean, I was at a conference last year and in Miami beach and I was going for a run, but early, early morning and I'd have to, I'm only talking sort of maybe a 10 12k run and I'd come in, I'd have to have a cold shower and I'd have to have 10 minute, then have another cold shower. And even then when I put my kind of conference attire on a suit or whatever, I just could not stop the sweating. And I can't imagine how much water you lose in that, in that heat, but covering those sorts of distances. So. So yeah, I mean it is, yeah, it's difficult.

They were very aware of it as well. So every stage finished at a water source, so either in the sea or in a river and you would, we would have been it, we'd have been in there for a good half an hour afterwards. There was no way, you know, I can remember a couple of stages falling into that water. And it was, you know, it was an incredible relief to try and get my body temperature down.

Yeah, well, I can absolutely imagine that. And so you've been through all of the different event or not all of it, the key ones. But is there one that stands out that you think, do you know what, that was just the most incredible experience?

No, I think no. And maybe that's what keeps me going. Because in the sense I hear your question as what was the most perfect race in, in every aspect. And I'm not sure I've had it yet. And so maybe that's what keeps me, keeps me going. I'm certainly shifting my focus a little bit into more. It's got to be an adventure as opposed to an all out fast, you know, wannabe first or first woman or whatever. I still obviously want to place them, still very competitive, but for me it's moving more into a, you know, say the Dragon's Back, which is what I've got, I've got my eye on next, the spirit, that sort of, that's sort of a more adventurous race.

I think that's the amazing thing about Ultrarunning. And the more I learn about it, the more these are adventures, aren't they? I mean, you know, you're seeing in terms of Fiji, Peru, Marathon de Sable, you know, they're just incredible experiences as well. So it's kind of that adventure aspect, which just seems brilliant. So other than the Dragon's Back, are there any others that you think are kind of on your bucket list that you think, I'd love to do that particular race?

I'll just hold the point a minute. Yeah. The other one we talked about earlier is Kate Wrath. I really want to do that. I'm looking to do all of the long ones in England, the sort of, the extended ways. And I tell you why, because yes, we've said mds, Nepal, Jungle, Fiji, and I've been really blessed to go to those. And you know, some of them I was supported through and others I paid for myself. But not everybody can do that. And I think it's at that point some people switch off and go, well, that you just, you know, you're just very lucky and you know, not all of us can do that. But actually there's an awful lot of fun that you can have on the trails and the ways around England. And you know, you don't have to go abroad to have an incredible adventure there. The, you know, we've got the Kate Wrath Ultra, which is, which is an extraordinary one and you're right out in the middle of nowhere up there, and it brings all of the elements into play. You know, it's all of the sort of, you know, can you get yourself physically, mentally over the line? You've got, like I said, the dragon's back, you've got the spine race. They're all coming onto everyone's radar now, certainly in the Ultraworld, with the likes of Damien doing such amazing stuff and. And Beth Pascal. And you've got. Well, you've got obviously the UTMB and things, which I've done as well. I haven't done the utmb, sorry. I've done ccc, which was an amazing race. I mean, that's amazing one. Just because of the. The enormity of it. You've got all the sky running in Scotland, which. Which again, provides a slightly shorter adventure. But no, you know, you're up high and messing around in the Scottish weather, which is never, never easy. So, yeah, there's, there's. But then, but then, you know, there's Thames path 100. You would think, well, you know how that's not wildly interesting route, but following the Thames Path, but in itself is another brilliant race that I really enjoyed. It was my first hundred miler and again was fraught with all sorts of incredible memories where I had my first proper bonk and I. And I was asleep in a hedge and all sorts of. All sorts of crazy things. But, yeah, you know, each one is an adventure. Each one I learn a bit more.

But I think you make it a really good point because, you know, particularly in lockdown, there's been a lot of people going, oh, I can't go on my holiday to so and so or. But we are blessed to live in such a beautiful country. And in fact, you know, mentioning to Damien that that part, that northwest corner of Scotland is just absolutely stunning. And if you saw it on a travel documentary, you be saying, well, that's New Zealand. That's. You know, we don't have stuff as beautiful as that in the uk and yet it's absolutely. It's incredible. So we are very blessed and hopefully lockdown has made us all appreciate our home country a little bit more.

I hope so. Yeah. And if. And if. And if it's only out of your back door, you know, there are a lot of sort of clients of mine have said, oh, I found trails that I didn't even know existed. And we're not sort of talking about, you know, football paths, we're talking about lovely trails that go on and on and on. I mean, here, round, Bath, we must have four or five different ways. And when. I mean a way, you know, an extended distance that you can. You can run and try and get from A to B along it. And, yeah, it's. It's there for the taking. You've just got to be slightly creative in where you look.

Well, yeah, I'm with you there. I found out during lockdown that we have a Rutland round, so you can run round the county on a footpath, which is about 65 miles, I think. And so I'm kind of already earmarking that as my first attempt. Longer than a marathon distance. Just kind of solo ultra. Just kind of. But, yeah, I mean, but I didn't know Rutland round even existed until a few months ago. So, yeah, I think there's lots of that going on. So, to put your coaching hat on, firstly, tell me a little bit about your coaching business. Tell me. Tell me how you operate, what sort of coaching you do for people in the running world.

I've got. It was an online platform. Online coaching for anybody. That's what I say. It's that people want to push their bubble, extend their bubble a bit. It's for anybody who wants to find a bit more within themselves. So it doesn't matter the distance, it just matters that you want to see what more you can do. And then, you know, you obviously need the structure in which to do that. And, you know, many people could say, well, why would I pay for such a thing? There's a prolification of things on the website that you can find. You've got all the videos on YouTube. But the thing that I hope to bring and what I'm aspiring to do is sort of walk it with them and is providing the support, the motivation. Certainly I needed that early on. You know, I lacked the confidence that I was a doing the right thing, that it was the right thing for me, not just the right thing for everybody else, but also when, you know, when I had a run, I thought I wasn't progressing, that I felt useless, I wasn't a runner. You know, it took me a long time to call myself a runner. And, I mean, that's one of the most silly things that I hear a lot of is people saying, well, but I'm not a runner. And it's mainly women. I'm not a runner. I said, but you run. Yes, but I'm not a runner because I'm not fast. Well, it's not about being fast, it's about the act of doing. But to me, that speaks Volumes in terms of their own self belief system and what the sort of attachments they've got to their running. So I just hope to be really involved. I have a lot of conversation, there's a lot of chat, there's a lot of WhatsApp going on, there's a lot of support, mentoring and I think, you know, because I've come at it from a parent who's had to try and train through childhood, you know, with lots of young kids about in the management of time to then having my own business and kids. And I, you know, I'm divorced, so that, you know, it's that management of time which most people put up as a, as a reason why they can't do it. I sort of try and help navigate through that and the belief that actually you can do it, you can, you can do it, you can't do it all, but you can prioritise slightly better. So yes, it's online and I also have run groups here in Bath. I've got PT sessions, strength training for runners and then just general hit sessions which obviously accompany all of the running sessions I do just to get people strong. Yeah, so that's where the coaching's at.

Brilliant. And so you touch on a point I was going to raise with you anyway and that is this time balance. So you obviously coach other people on it. But I mean, you've got four children, you run your own business and you're training for ridiculously long runs. How do you fit it all in and what sort of techniques do you use from that to help other people?

Prioritizing. So it's prioritizing my running as well as everything else because it is important that I see my running as important as my business and my kids. Because it is. Because it keeps me mentally strong, it keeps me young, it keeps me physically strong. And I want the children to see that I'm not just a slave to family life or a slave to my business. I also have dreams of my own. And you know, there's many, there's that sort of that middle tranche of years that could slip away where you are facilitating in your provider. But I think it's really important that the kids also see that I, you know, I want to also achieve things for myself and they need to sometimes support me in that. Certainly my son, when he was younger would cycle with me on my long runs and he would give me my nutrition. So there was a whole coaching aspect that was going on there. I was explaining about nutrition. He would see what happened to me when I got hungry. What happened to me when I got tired And I didn't shy away from showing him that. I also don't shy away from telling them that I don't want to run today, but I have to. And pushing through the, you know, the desire to sit down and put my feet up. A couple of things that helped me as well is certainly in different phases. When they were really young, as I had a treadmill, I didn't have much space for it, but I did have a treadmill and I put it in the house because I could do it whilst they were asleep. So I trained a lot at night. I trained sort of 9 o', clock, 10 o', clock, which I'm fortunate my body doesn't. In fact, I'm better at nighttime and then. So having the treadmill gave me the versatility of when I could train, but I also didn't need to leave the house and I still have one now and I. And you know, sometimes there's people say, oh, you know, how could you ever run on a treadmill? Well, I find that I go through phases of my training. Sometimes I. All I want to do is run outside, but then there are other times all I want to do is run on treadmill and get it punchy, get it done, get it, get it, you know, get on to the next thing. And I find that having that versatility helps. But I do think prioritizing Sunday night, sitting down and saying, look, you know, this is the amount of time, these are the number of jobs and all of them need to get done. So how am I going to give them time? Once the run has a fixed time in the. In the calendar or, you know, my weekly calendar, then it generally will get done. And generally, although I know I've just said I trained when they were little at night time, I get it done in the morning because it can't slip then. Or if it does slip, it's got another. It's got another place. You know, there is another opportunity.

I think there was some research that was done by Fitbit that said that there's generally two exercise spikes over the course of the day, 6:00am and 6:00pm People that regularly exercise at 6:00am exercise twice as often as the people exercise at 6:00pm yeah, because, yeah, you get it. If it's done at the start of the day, nothing else gets in the way, does it? But completely endorse the approach of just sitting there on a Sunday night and going, right, I do it on a Monday morning, but it's right working where does all the exercise fit in over the week? Because it is equally as important as the business, as the family. And so, yeah, I think that planning.

Is so important, but I think that's what people miss, is that they don't prioritize it. I remember being at a dinner party and this. He wasn't. He was a friend, actually, just said, do you not think you're completely selfish doing what you do? And I was like, well, yeah, I mean, you could see it as. I'm selfish because I prioritize my running and my events as, you know, as alongside all of these other things. But I also see it as a different way and not to go over the point I just made, but it. But it's teaching the children that I am. I am a person with needs, with wants, you know, and I think that's, you know, I was brought up with two loving parents, but I never really saw them as individuals who needed their own, to be able to develop in their own way. And I think it's, you know, subtly they were. But it wasn't. It wasn't necessarily something that I was aware of. I look back now and go, oh, yeah, my mum, you know, was always teaching and she made sure she had jobs because we traveled an awful lot. But actually, at the time, it wasn't made aware to me. But that's because she wants, you know, growth and her space and to feel valued and validated and all that sort of stuff. So I think if you. If you see it from that perspective, you're more likely to prioritize it.

Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree. And also, we all know that our children do what we do, not what we tell them to do, so much better to set an example. So that's. That's fantastic. You touched on something there with your. With your running. You said, well, you know, sometimes I like to run on the treadmill more, sometimes I like to run outside more. How strict a training regime do you have for yourself and for your athletes? Is it, you know, this week you will do this. These two of these three different routines, or is it much more, you know, what. Do what feels right and what you're enjoying, you know, where's that balance? And I. It gets described as junk miles, sometimes doing what you want to do. What are your beliefs on that?

It sits somewhere between both of those and I feel quite strongly about it, certainly as somebody who's time compromised. I think in order to get to an end goal, you have to be focused and you have to have sessions which are going to work for you and that are going to, you know, benefit physically because you're always trying to sort of push your limits of what you can, what you can endure and what you can do and paces and all this sort of stuff. So yes, you have to have structure. You have to know what each session is for, why you're going out. And that's where that junk miles falls into. If you don't really know what you're going for, then it sort of sits in a, in a vagarity and it's, well, maybe I won't do it because, you know, what purpose does it serve? I think I go out and I certainly make sure each client on the session where it says, what is it for? Is it a steady state run? Because if it's a steady state run, they know what they're doing that for, what adaptations that's bringing in their body. Is it a long run? If it's a long run, which we're breaking into parts, then what's the point of that? And this has all been explained to them beforehand. What's an easy recovery run? Why go on that? Does it serve a purpose? So if you know what the run is for, it's going to make it more purposeful and therefore more important. But at the same time, I believe running has to be, it has to be fun. It shouldn't become another noose around your neck. We've got plenty of those in our lives. You know, you don't want it to become, oh my God, you know, there's another stress, another pressure, another thing that I'm going to fail at if I don't do it. I err away from that. And once we get into that zone, then we have to really rethink things. And it might be that they've come to me and said, yes, I can definitely do five runs a week. Absolutely. One of the first things I say to them is now we have to be really honest with ourselves. Better to put runs in than to take them out or miss them. So be honest with how many you really can do per week. And it's not that more is better, it's what suits you and your lifestyle because it's all about positive experience. If we can get those done, if we could do five, then we'll make sure those five are going to. They're going to be focused in getting you to your end goal. But if you can only do three, that too can get you to your end goal. But we just got to make them slightly different. People who are training for the MDs seem to a lot of the worry that the training is going to be so onerous and there are many people that just keep going for seven, eight runs, sorry, seven, eight hour runs in weekends. It doesn't need to be like that. You can be far more specific with your runs, much, far more focused. You can do double days, you can all, you can sort of tweak it for the time pressured individual and who isn't time pressured, but it doesn't need to be onerous. So just to condense what I've just said in some sort of long winded way. Yes, every run needs to have a focus. It has to have a point and a meaning and know why you're, what the adaptation is. But at the same time I like people to feel that, like I say, one day you just think, you know, I would really love to just get on that trail, it's beautiful day outside, but I need to just, I need to get on the treadmill. That's where I'm feeling it. That's what I want to do. Go and do that. Don't argue with it, don't fight it. I also have some days where I think, you know, mentally I cannot put in a tempo run today. I just haven't got it. So I say to them, they'll text me, I go, that's fine. We're going to put in a recovery run and we're going to put the tempo run in somewhere else. So there is flexibility. And that's what I mean. As a coach, I like to be on hand to allow for that creativity and allow for that movement and that flexibility when you know, you just don't feel it and that's fine.

I think that's really important. Is it? Because I was chatting to a guy called Mitch Phillips on this podcast and we kind of both agreed that we felt that there was no really such thing as jump miles. Now whether it's moving you towards your running goal as much as it should be is one question. But actually from a mental well being point of view, running does you so much good. Is there such a thing? Is a run ever bad for you? Would be the question. I suppose when you're coaching clients and also when you're on your long runs, how do you get through the darker times? I mean, clearly when you're running 100 plus miles, there must be some pretty dark moments at times. How do you get through those? What mental techniques have you developed to help you plow through the dark times?

Oh yes, the dark times. There's plenty of those. And they, interestingly, they've changed over time. In the early days when I was, you know, punching to place in races, and they were the shorter, so 50Ks, 100Ks, whatever, it would always come at about 30, 40K, and I'd go, you know, my paces aren't what they should be. I'm no good, you know, the old chimp, the chimp on the shoulder. And my daughter once said to me, mum, do not listen to the devil on the left shoulder. Listen to the angel on the right. Now it's a bit corny. It works for me, the angel. And I, therefore, when I'm hearing those words, replace them with something positive. So I try and flip them around with a positive spin. Doesn't always work, but it's one of the things. I've sort of got an armory of them, but also the experience that I know that I'll come through it is another thing to drop it back, just let, just let go of the pacing because I know if I just am kind to myself at that time, I gather myself back up again, you know, sort of regroup and then invariably, you know, I'll punch through and I get stronger and stronger and stronger from there on in. I know I happen to be better at the back end of a race than I do at the front. So, you know, it's. It's bringing that experience which I happen to have now over, having done this over time and not try to sort of chase the end goal before I'm even, you know, halfway through the race. I use different, different motivators. I, you know, and I've spoken to a lot of people and it's interesting what works for some and not others, but I sort of hold on to one particular woman who was early 40s, she had three kids, as I did, and within four months was diagnosed with liver cancer and died. And I've used it in many aspects of my life because I, you know, I'm out there running, I might want to do it anymore, I might be hurting, I might be in a bit of a crisis point, but at the end of the day I can do it and she can't. And so I sort of look at the, you know, I sort of say, well, how. How do I have the right to complain about anything that is so trivial and that I've chosen to do? And I. So that's another thing that I use and that I find quite powerful. I also sometimes dedicate a race to somebody before I. Before I run. So somebody I know is having a particularly Difficult time or whatever it is. And then if I've sort of given it a separate focus other than my own outcome, then it has a different dimension as well. It's not necessarily that I raise money for charity or anything, but in my mind I'm giving a part of me to them and sort of quietly supporting whatever it is that they're doing. And then there's loads of other, you know, sort of the little mindset things that you can do. I do visualization before races, so I try to have visualized getting into that place and what, you know, what am I going to say to myself? What does it mean? Try and slow down. This is one of the things that I didn't do particularly well and I think it's because the lack of sleep on the side. Fine. I didn't stop. You know, I knew I was on the tail of third woman. I could, I felt second was well within my grasp and I could do that very well. I was going to be top 10. It was all shaping really well. And I didn't just slow down and make some sensible decisions. I kept trying to move forward at speed and that was my demise. But I think that's because I was tired and I didn't just say, look, I could just sit here for two hours and wait for the sun to rise. I mean, we're talking about a four day race. Two hours isn't hugely important. But I could try and wrap myself up. I was getting extremely cold. I was very cold and just use that time to regroup and I should have done and I didn't. So there's always something to take from everything.

Well, that's it. There's good experiences and learning experiences. So as long as you learn from the ones that don't go quite according to plan, then you're better at it the next time, don't you? And what about, you know, it intrigues me how when you're on such long races, how you fuel. So what nutrition strategy works for you? Any particular products that you think really work well for you? I've often found it quite challenging. I came into endurance sport as part of trying to be the fittest and healthiest I could be. And then I found all the endurance fuel was not necessarily that healthy. So talk to me about nutrition and staying healthy.

Yep. Again, it's an evolving process, isn't it? And particularly as we're lucky that the market is evolving quite quickly and the products are changing a lot as is understanding of it all. So I am very much real foods, whole foods, have always been. I'm not particularly good with gels. I'd never like them. The consistency has never settled very well with me. And yeah, so I, and I also have a problem that my saliva drives up, dries up. So I find chewing and eating things that are dry particularly difficult. So I shifted them very much into the liquid fuel. So was having sort of things like tailwind and that sort of thing. So I knew then that my nutrition was covered by through drinking essentially. I mean obviously I did, I did eat, but it wasn't my only source of fuel. Trying to work on sort of somewhere between 60 to 70 carbs an hour. And I start that right early on. I don't let the first couple of hours pass and then, and then start to sort of. Well, in my mind it would be catch up. So it's. It to me that the front end of it and that, that takes you into the day before is crucial what you're having when not even the day before, the few days before nutrition and hydration crucial. So is sleep. And then that goes into the morning. And then the first few hours of the race if you, if you start getting behind, it's very difficult to catch up. So. So yeah, so that's what I, that's what I tend to do. And I've, I mean I've tried everything, tried baby food. 24 hour. I was doing. Oh actually that. Yeah. To go right back. I'd forgotten about that. One of the races I was extremely proud of was my 24 hour track race. Yeah, there we are. There's a whole nother thing. Anyway, I just.

Those 24 hour races, from a mental strength point of view just, I just can't get my head around how you do that.

And that is exactly why it stands out was because I'm a, you know, I'm a trail runner. I've never liked roads, I've never done a road marathon. Oh, that's not, that's a lie. I felt I better do one. So I did do Paris, but I don't naturally do that. I've never done road 10ks or anything. Like they said, I'm a trail through and through. And so I again on this, this idea that I'm going to do adventures, I'm going to stick myself in weird spaces. I decided that I'd try this track race because to me it was bonkers. How could anybody want to run around in a loop on a track where there isn't even, there's no scenery, there's nothing changing. I mean it's just awful. It's awful in every aspect. And I loved it.

Oh, sorry, go on, carry on. You loved it?

I loved it. I loved it. I really did.

Why?

It's just so simple. It was it once you turned your brain off. I mean, it's hilarious. You go around because there's a big scoreboard right at the sort of where we started. And I did one lap and I was like, oh, my God, it's four minutes. And then I go around again, it's eight minutes. I mean, Jesus, this is gonna go on, you know, if you're shown your. Your time every time you go round, I was like, this is gonna drag so badly. But anyway, you sort of. You sort of get to grips with that and move on from that. And I. But yeah, I loved its simplicity. And interestingly, one of my kids asked me, okay, about. What did you think about? You know, I have ab. Absolutely no bloody idea. I didn't think about anything. Well, maybe that's it. And maybe this is why running is. And these long runs are the purest form of presence and being in the moment. Because do you know what I thought about? I thought about, am I eating enough? Do I have the right clothes on? Am I cold? You know, oh, what do my feet feel like? Oh, can I extend my pace a bit or do I want to slow down a bit? Oh, maybe I should run these really simple, really in the moment, present, present, present things. That is all I thought about for 24 hours, nothing else.

And that's going to be why running is such. Such a brilliant thing for your mental health, isn't it? Because it does bring you back to the. To the present for me, you know, whether it's cycling or running or swimming. Actually, I always say that miles are my meditation because I just find it so restorative, if that's the right word. It just doesn't mean an awful lot of good.

It does. And from that, from that being so present, you're then able to come back and somehow solve any quantity of issues that you might well have been struggling with beforehand. You know, some people and some runs I do, I use them to figure out solutions to problems. And it is a very good way of doing that. You get some degree of more clarity than you do when you're sitting at your desk. But I think also the. That, that sort of presence and that being in the moment, even if you're not thinking of the solution there and then, I think there's something about the flush of endorphins and all of the other Sort of, you know, the causes or everything that goes through your system then allows for a real clear thinking afterwards. And yeah, so I think, yeah, that, that one again, a bit like the spine. I entered it wondering whether I'd ever be able. I just didn't know how I would do it and I didn't know whether I could endure. But I ended up doing again. I was really pleased with my results. Suddenly thought, God, you know, I'm alright, you know, again, it's a self affirmation that I was better at even that than I expected I would be. And yeah, I'm keen to try again.

I think it's. Yeah, I think that's fascinating. There's also quite a lot of research that says that we do think better while running or walking, even more so than cycling. In fact, I've now started to do the same thing in that if I've got a plan, a talk or in fact I planned. I mapped out the framework for my latest book while on a Half Ironman on the Run of a Half Ironman because it just. You just process things better, don't you? Why? But it's, it's quite amazing, the clarity.

And having said that, the funny side of it though is how many podcasts have I listened to? And I go, oh my God, that's an absolute nugget. And then I get home and I can't remember it. There's also the flip side that you do, you somehow you haven't quite, quite got the. I mean, I certainly can remember solutions to problems I've come up with, but in terms of remembering things, I'm not very good.

Yeah, well, absolutely. But at least with running you can take your phone out and make a very rough note, whereas cycling, it's more difficult.

Indeed it is.

And so why just running? You said that you'd always loved cycling and you've been very good at swimming. How have you ended up mostly focusing on the running, which was the one that you liked the least?

Yeah, funny.

Hey, do you still cycle and swim or. Not so much?

Yes. And in fact I'm starting to do more cycling and enjoying it. I think when I started running it hit me at absolutely the right time and I started to find a sort of belief in my. I started to find, you know, I'd obviously done well at rowing and that sort of thing, but I come from a family of very good sportsmen and my brothers are extremely good and I, so therefore had a little bit of a complex, bit of a chip on my shoulder that I wasn't always second rate and never quite as good as them in terms of they could pick up a racket, be brilliant from the outset. Well, as I had to practice a bit more and you know, therein lies another coaching thing that, you know, don't believe. Anyone picks up a racket and is good. There is an awful lot of practice. And as I get older, I realize that my older brother, it's because he never went on the court until he practiced quietly and he was good enough to show his skill. So, you know, if anyone tells you that they, they got up and run a marathon and they won it, it's rubbish. You know, everybody practices and it's. I think we're quick to. We're quick to assume we're no good if we can't do it really quickly. But it's that it's the one that there's a person that quietly endures. And I think that's where a coach comes in because you can, you can just, you can just quietly and subtly keep pushing that person or nudging them rather than pushing them in the right direction of believing that they are going to get there and that practice is the way and enjoying the process on the way. But yes, to answer your question, sorry, gone off, gone off on a tangent. I am cycling more, really enjoying cycling, and I do think there's something in the future for me, cycling wise. But running just hit me at the right time and certainly the power it gave me to be out exploring the open, the fresh air, being outdoors, the fact it didn't involve anybody else and you know, my life was so involved with, with others needing of me. I needed to be able to do something that needed to be very singular and I had a degree of success. So, so that was fun. But I can see the fun in cycling as well. Yeah, well, until last weekend when someone, you know, I was cycling, my partner, we're going fast, we're clipping along a big wide road, no cars behind us. We were not insulting anybody. We weren't in anybody's way. And the car coming towards us fast threw a load of eggs at us. And you think, what is that all about? What is it? You know, I've got to put this out there. What is it that people have a problem with for cyclists? You know, it's not the first time my partner's been abused verbally, you know, or there's tax on the road. The cycling club around here have problem with people putting tax. And I just do not understand why people get crossed with cyclists. I'm at a loss.

Yeah, Well, I agree. I think, you know, I live in a part of the world in Rutland that absolutely, you know, is cycling mad. Quite often on a Sunday, in fact, when I was. Specifically when I was riding with Warren from 33 fuel, commented three quarters of the way around that we must have seen 10 times more cyclists than we'd seen cars on the road. So it's extremely lucky in that sense. But you find that. I find that most people are very considerate of cyclists and in a way it's maybe got slightly better because of lockdown, because more people have experienced it. But you're right, there are some people that just. So I don't get it either. Surely the world would be a better place with more cyclists around rather than more people in cars.

But it's a shame you've just reminded me I didn't answer one of your questions. Well, I mentioned tailwind, but 33 fuel is another one that I will use. They were. They're worthy of mention in that they are very natural and. But. But natural without losing the flavor. I love their. Their bars in particular, and I. And I love their gels. Their gels. I just struggle with the packaging. It doesn't really work for me on long. You know, it's too cumbersome. But. But their bars are second to none. I just find that they taste good, but they also feel like you're eating real food, which, as I've said all along, is hugely important to me.

I agree. And I actually. I don't tend to use much many gels, but I do like their gels once. Now that I've got the hang of using them to start with, I ended up with chia seeds all down the front of me. But I think that. I think they're really. The quality of their stuff is really good. So. Yeah, no, glad you mentioned them. What's the worst advice you hear people given when they say they want to get into ultra running or running in general?

Well, I think whether it's advice or whether it's preconceived notions of what it's supposed to be and what you're supposed to be like. I've sort of touched on it earlier. It's that it's that somehow to be a runner, you have to be fast. Well, that's not true. To be a runner, you need to do it and, you know, so women in particular are very, very quick to put themselves down and say, oh, I'm not a runner. I think we all sort of are worried. We're not going to be fast enough. So that would be, would be one thing and certainly well, and I, and I hope this is changing. Having said that, I've got some lovely friends that have said it to me a couple of times. You know, what I love about you, Kerry, is that you don't fit the running image. And I know exactly what they're talking about. I'm not skinny and I don't have the physique that they would normally associate with a runner. They say, you know, you look like you eat and you look healthy and you're not gaunt and I'm not and I never will be because that's just not my physiology. That's not how I'm made. But it, it seems to me that people have this image of what you need to look like to be a runner and somehow therefore goes back to the mental side of running. They've also, they've condemned themselves before they started. So if there's somebody that has particularly big thighs or hips or is carrying a bit of weight, they sort of deem that somehow that means they're not going to be in any way be able to perform. And that's just so wrong. Yeah, I mean, if you want to win Paris Marathon, you want to shed a bit of weight, but that's not where we're at. You know, we're talking about the majority of the people here, the majority of people want to get enjoyment, pleasure, life enrichment and sort of all of the facets that you know as a triathlete. And I know that your whole, your whole life changes when you feel good about your, your sport and you're able to perform in your sport and your work changes, you know, your relationships. It's a really powerful thing.

It's about setting goals that are relevant to you, isn't it? There's no point in starting to run and saying, I'm gonna, you know, my goal for the year is gonna be a sub 3 hour marathon. But if you set your goal that's relevant to you, then absolutely you can, you can, you can achieve so much. And it just, I think I remember you saying in a podcast I listened to that goals and dreams were important to you. What are your, what are your goals for the future over the next year?

To keep, to keep pushing my, I mean, I sort of talk about a bubble and I have a very visual image of what that looks like and that, and that sort of helps me. I mean, it's very simple. This is not, this is not, it's not anything profound, but I But I imagine I'm in one, you know those kids things and they blow these bubbles and it's sort of this bubble that surrounds me and. And those bubbles, if you sort of gently put push with one hand and the other hand, and. And sort of slowly you begin to push these, which I see therefore as boundaries, these boundaries away, these. These preconceived notions of how close your life has to be. You can say, well, no, actually, I don't. I don't think that needs to be like this. I want to go and see if I can run further. I'd like to go and see if I can run 20k without stopping. I want to see if I can climb that mountain and then run down the other side, you know, all of these things. And by doing that, you're sort of always pushing the boundaries. So for me, it's my little bubble, like you just said, entirely relevant to me. I'm starting to cycle more, so I'm not sure I'm watching that or watching where I'm going to go with that. And I think there might be some sort of endurance cycling thing that goes on there. I really want to do the Dragons back, but these races are getting hard to get into. I want to do the Spine again. Sadly, I can't do it in January because my daughter's doing a level. So I need to be put parenting first and stay around for that next. The beginning of next year. But certainly January 2022, I will be hopefully back on the Spine start line. Berghaus Dragons back in back, end of next year and then just little. I think this is what lockdown has done for me. I'm just doing lots of silly challenges for myself. So I've got this 4, 4 48, which is the equivalent of one mile every hour for 24 hours. But just slightly tweaked, but that interests me. I just went and I wanted to see if I could run for five hours on the treadmill continuously. So I did that the other day. So it's just. Again, it's fairly pointless, but it's just keeping me entertained and I will just keep coming up with those little things whilst. Whilst life is a little bit more restricted. It's keeping me, it's keeping it farther. I went and tried to say I'm not a big cyclist by any stretch, so I just, you know, for me to do three hours on a Turbo was going to be just a stretch, so I've done three, now I've got to go and do five. So, you know, it's it's, it's like, oh. And with the family again, getting the family involved. The kids have been doing bits and pieces, but we decided that we, if I'm honest, it was me, I put to them and they were very graceful and accepted the challenge. But we were going to do a 12 hour continuous running relay, so it didn't matter how long you ran, as long as you did over an hour. And My youngest is 10. And so I said, all of us have got to play our part in this and we will cover 12 hours. So I put in how much I would do and then we all sort of divvied it up. And that was brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant relay. And we were all sort of sitting outside and watching each other come in and go out. And then some couple want to do it on the treadmill, some went outside. So it was. They're just little fun things.

I love the idea of that. I'm going to suggest that to my family. I'm not sure that it would go down very well, but I've got a London marathon place, so I'm still going to do my local marathon on the. Whatever the date is 3rd of October or whatever is. And I don't even know that the girls know it yet, but they're going to be cycling the same marathon that I, that I run. But I think doing that sort of stuff and incorporating the family is brilliant because this endurance stuff is quite a lonely thing at times, isn't it? And it can be, it can be seen to be selfish. I don't think it is, but it can be seen to be. So anything you can do to bring the two together is fantastic.

Oh, we've done. Yeah, we have done actually as a run, my running community, we've done an awful lot of these challenges with just bringing family members in and the kids have just like, I didn't think I could do that, you know, and with a little bit of encouragement and not a lot of pressure, it's sort of, it's getting that bit right, isn't it? You know, and also allowing them, they have to feel there's an out. So rather than I have to run for an hour, you say, look, as long as you're moving for an hour, or in the case of what you've said, they don't have to run, they can cycle. Then they feel they have some sort of ownership over it and the whole thing is going to be favorable to everybody and, you know, they can have a little sour snake or something along the way. Whatever it takes.

They Might demand a little bit more than that. One last question, because I'm really conscious of your time and grateful for you giving up this amount of time and wisdom. You mentioned the chimp brain, so I'm assuming that's the reference to the Chimp Paradox, which is a tremendous book. Any other books that you found particularly helpful? Any books that you think were, you know, really that you recommend regularly, or any books that you think, you know, just helped you on your journey?

Yep, yep.

Yeah.

A sort of mix between books and podcasts, really. Yeah.

Well, either, actually.

Yeah, books. I mean, you know, where to start? There's so many that are so sort of fundamental off the top of my head. Not because they're. Well, just because they're in the top. My head. Therefore, they must. They must be. Something that I carry with me is will. I think it's. Will this make the boat go faster? I think it's called. And that is references to rowing. But I love the way the book's written, the way it's set out, and I like the premise of, you know, I'm doing something because it's actually getting me somewhere, as opposed to I'm doing it because I'm doing it so, you know, will it make the boat go faster at the end of the day? And then the one I'm reading at the moment, and it's something that I think to some degree I've had as a guiding principle in my life, but I'm really sort of going a bit deeper into it. Is the Observation is the Way by Ryan Holiday. And it's all about stoicism and it's sort of. It's about how you view things. You know, we can all be thrown curveballs, particularly at this time. I would say it's a particularly good book to look at because curveballs are coming at us from all which ways, you know, business is affected, the way you're having to deal with your family members, lots of things not going to plan, but it's all about the perception and how you choose to deal with those. And you are in charge of that. So because something comes at you and you immediately say, or think, your reaction is, this is bad alert. Why me? Woe me. You know, all of that sort of initial reaction. It's a. Well, it doesn't have to be bad. If I don't choose to view it as bad, it doesn't have to be seen as that. It can be seen as a growth point, it can be seen as a pivotal point. All of this way. So I'm finding that really, really very interesting and I'm bringing that quite a lot into my coach.

Actually I only put that on my reading list about a week ago. So that's the second time. I can't even remember where the previous recommendation came from but that's going to be shifting up the reading list very quickly and I'll take on because that's. Yeah, I've heard good things about that. And actually somebody else on the podcast, I can't think who recommended Will this Make the boat go Faster?

So really? Yeah. I tell you there's one podcast that I've. I've only come to of late and I just, I really rate it and it's don't tell me the score. Have you heard that one?

No, I haven't. I don't know that. That's brilliant. So don't tell me about that.

It has fairly well known athletes on it and Johnny Wilkinson, a bit of a broad, broad brush of all types. So we've got lots of rugby players on there. Sam Warburton was on there and I enjoyed his, his 10 principles to being a Team player or something. Then like I say, Johnny Wilkinson happened to be two rugby players quite like my rugby. But there's an awful lot of other of other people and the interviewer just, he gets the tone right. He's really informed, he asks really pertinent questions. There is a real meshing of whoever he seems to talk to and he just gets the best out of everybody. I love it. I could listen to them forever.

As well. Kerry, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. I was going to come on to charity as well but I'm not sure if you've got time to talk about. But you've obviously woven charity into your running over the years. How important has that been on that journey? Just briefly.

Really important. I mean giving back is what it's, you know, what it's all about. Yeah, we get a lot of, we get a lot of pleasure, self affirmation from, from doing things for ourselves. But you know, there is an awful lot of reward to be gained from, from giving back and, and I certainly get that from my coaching. But then charity is, is on a different level again and so yeah, I mean if, you know, I don't tend to go out to sort of to be sponsored as it were but I will certainly waive charity into how I do things and you know, support anybody wherever possible. I've certainly been on the receiving end of a lot of charity. If that's not Quite what I'd call it, but you know what I mean. Goodwill, good intention and supporting things like Street Child, where I went around in Sierra Leone and things. So they're, they're really, really important. The work they do has got to be, particularly now more than ever, they've got to be really supported.

Fantastic. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. Thank you so much for giving up your valuable time, your expertise. I can't wait to see what happens on your journey next. You know, what you've achieved already is incredible, but I'm sure you're only going to continue to go from strength to strength. So huge. Thank you for being a part of the podcast and good luck for the year ahead.

Thank you. I've really enjoyed this conversation. It's been really easy, really fun and thank you so much for inviting me.

I'm sure you'll agree Kerry is just an incredibly inspiring person. Just achieved so much and done so many amazing things, but also learned so much and looking forward to doing so much more. So I can't wait to see more about what Kerry gets up to in the future. If you want to find out more about Kerry, there's obviously all the stuff in the show notes, but you can go to perpetual motioncoaching.com that's got all of her social media tags on it as well, but perpetualmotioncoaching.com and you can find out more about Kerry and more about her coaching. I'm sure you got lots out of that and learned lots, because I know I did. So I hope you found that conversation really valuable. And as I say, go and check out perpetualmotioncoaching.com to find out more about Kerri and her coaching. Don't Forget to check out 33fuel.com if you want to get faster, fitter and healthier through their incredibly high quality, health conscious, endurance, nutrition. And if you use the discount code TA33, you'll be able to get a 10% discount. So that's capital two, capital A33 the numbers and you'll get a 10% discount off your order@33fuel.com you won't be disappointed.

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