Mastering Training and Parenting with Jackie Hering

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Tribathlon podcast finding out how ordinary people do extraordinary things.

If I was gonna spend this time away from my family now, like this better be something that I'm like doing correctly and doing actually the best I can and not just dabbling and screwing around and just kind of being a part time pro triathlete.

That was Jackie Herring and this episode is Mastering Training and Parent. Hi, Claire, how are you doing?

Yes, good, thank you. Yes, another good week. How about you?

Excellent. I am very well, thank you. Very well. How is your ultra training going?

Yeah, good actually. I think it's really different because I'm not, it's not something I've ever done before. So with triathlon you kind of know where you are and I think you trust in the process of knowing what you're, what training you're doing is going to get you through a race, whereas I have absolutely no idea. So that's kind of how I'm feeling right now is I just have to trust in the process. How about you?

Yeah, I think it's going pretty well. I'm not sure I feel like I'm running often enough, but I'm still doing all the cross training and you know, having interviewed people like Anna Troop who reckon that the cross training is for those of us that are a little bit older, the cross training is just as good. In fact, probably a better way of keeping that fitness up, but avoiding injury risk. So, yeah, I went for a long run yesterday, a shorter run earlier on in the week. I'll probably do a bit more running between now and the next two or three weeks just because I suspect getting out on the bike around Christmas and getting my swims in will be a little bit more challenging. So, yeah, lots of running planned.

Plenty of fuel for all that running as well, won't we? So.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's.

Microgen stores will be drifting, so yeah, perfect, perfect time to go and do that, I think.

Absolutely. And I think it's. Yeah, I always particularly enjoy a Boxing Day run because it feels like the best way to try and reset after a large day of overindulgence.

I think, I think some of it is to do with like having, having some fresh air. And I mean you do put your, you know, one thing I would say is you put your body under a huge amount of stress because if you have been having late nights and drinking a bit of alcohol, that's actually really stressful on your body. So when you go out and try and push it. So, you know, for anybody out there that's trying to do that. Just being kind of sensible as well. But I think one of the things that does make, I think it does make you feel a little bit better because one, it's fresh air, but two, you know, you are, you are sort of coming back, you're rehydrating because you have to, and then you kind of eat again. So you kind of, you do get back into that routine, don't you? Which I think is important.

Absolutely. And of course we're recording this prior to Christmas, but actually this will go out after Christmas. I think I'm right in saying that. So, so yeah, by, by the time people are listening to it, they'll have already had their Boxing Day run, hopefully, and they're overindulgent Christmas. But as this is going out just around the turn of New Year, I should have looked at the date. I can't remember exactly where the dates fall, but it'll be the Friday around New Year. I always think that this, this time of year is a great time for kind of reflecting on the year you've had, but also on making sure that the next year is the best year ever. Now, I'm sure there's a few people looking back at 2021 and 2020 going, that's not going to be, it's not going to be that difficult to be better than them. But are you, are you big on goal setting? You know, do you have a specific approach to goal setting?

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I think, I think as athletes anyway, we are goal focused, aren't we? Because if you think of finishing a race or, you know, some people say, well, I just want to finish the race. That's a goal in itself. Or I, you know, I want to be on the podium or do age group, whatever it might be. So I think as athletes are very used to setting goals. I just think we're not very good at doing it. I think a lot of people don't know how to set a real goal. And actually a lot of the work that I do with athletes, in fact all of the work, there's. We don't put anything into place until we have a clear outline in terms of goals, of actually where we're going to. Because otherwise, how do you look back and know you've made these changes? And the other thing with goals as well is that it's okay to reset them, so it's okay to go back to that goal and say, actually, either we've met that goal, that goal needs to change now as well. And I think sometimes people don't always do that. That goal that you make in the new year isn't necessarily going to carry you right the way through the year. And I guess the other thing also is setting goals that are really unrealistic. I think they have to be very, very realistic and actually in small steps rather than having these huge goals. I know we have these huge goals, not talking about the ultra run that we're doing or anything like that, but, you know. Yeah, so I have lots of thoughts about goals and I think it's really. They are really, really important and it's how you set them. It's about being realistic, about refocusing, going back that. And how are you going to measure it as well? I think the metric part of it, the measuring part of it is really important to say, well, have I met it? What are your thoughts? Because you sound like you've got quite a few thoughts about goals.

I've done quite a lot of reading on goal setting over the years and I think you're absolutely right on many points. But definitely you've got to be specific. I mean, there's obviously the smart goals that they talk about. So specific, measurable, achievable, realistic, realistic and timely. I think that you're right in that they've got to be realistic, but actually I think they've got to be big enough to scare you but not kill you. I think that, you know, if you set goals that are too realistic, then actually, yes, you'll achieve them, but actually you won't have achieved much in achieving them. So setting goals that scare you but won't kill you is probably the underlying principle for me. But I'm very structured in the way I define my goals. So I actually split my life into different key roles. So on my personal life, I have three key roles, which is to be healthy, wealthy, and to have good relationships. So I have. I set goals for each of those areas. And then for business, I actually break it out into working on the business and working in the business. And I have two different areas that I do, key key roles in the business, one of which is marketing the business, the second which is being a financial planner. When I talk about this, I talk mostly about my financial planning business, of course. So being a financial planner and marketing, that business are my two key roles in the business. And then I have the roles working on that business and on other businesses like Tribathlon, like some other business ventures that I have. So I will set goals for each of those four business areas and Each of those three personal areas and I will always have a three year goal, a one year goal and a course this quarter's goal for every one of those. And then for each of those months or quarters goals every month I'll look at them and go, right, okay, what have I got to do this month to achieve that quarter's goal? Because ultimately if you. And then I know that every month and in fact I'll do that again on a weekly basis with those months goals, that means every week I know I'm taking a step towards those bigger three year goals. The one year goals are the most, I think the most powerful goals. And so I'll spend a lot of time over the next few days kind of refining what I think those one year goals should be. But to focus on things like the health and because that's clearly what we're, what we're talking mostly about here. I'll definitely have a time for Ironman Wales. I'll definitely have time for 70.3. I'll definitely have a. Well, actually I don't know that I will have a time for the ultra, but it will more likely be my ultra goal because of course the arc 50 so close to the start of the year, my ultra goal might be to, to run 100 miler at some point in the year and I'll have a marathon time as well. So that's the sort of things that I will, I will be building around and then the quarterly goals will be kind of those stepping stones to getting there. Because you know, as they say, if you want to eat an elephant, you do it one bite at a time.

And that's what they swore in one day, isn't it? Forging like a true financial planner. They're like planning, planning those goals out there.

Exactly. You've got, you know, what gets measured, gets done. So if you want to achieve your goals, it's not about the writing of the goals that's important, it's about the process behind the goals. Because actually we can all write down goals and then forget about them. And then a year later we go, oh, didn't manage to achieve those. But if you're, if you have a process that allows you to revisit them, you'll, you'll achieve those goals much. And the same applies in sport as it does in business.

I agree. I think you, and that's kind of where I come back to in terms of setting out those, those goals that are realistic and how are you going to get them? How is that going to be achievable yeah. And the revisiting. So when I talked about sort of metrics, how are you going to measure it? It is like measuring, measuring that to go back and say well actually where am I now to get to where I need to be. So how close am I? What do I need to change? Or does that goal need to change a little bit? Because actually it's not quite as realistic now as maybe it was before. So it's kind of like micro steps, isn't it to get that goal in a really nice way. I like, I like, really like the idea of like going back on a month by month basis to kind of to I guess benchmark yourself. Am I near to where I need to be?

Because you just got to keep, you know, every quarter I'm looking at the year's goals, every month I'm looking at the quarter's goals, every week I'm looking at months goals and in fact I actually, I built a document all around this which actually people hadn't thought about mentioning it but you can Download it from charlieredding.com it's called the Limitless Life Planner and it's just a really structured document of kind of mapping out what those goals are and then keeping you revisiting them. But yeah, I just think it, it's just such a powerful way of achieving so much more. And one of the things that I found brilliant in the, in the exercise world for goal setting is training peaks because actually what's quite difficult is to say, you know, if you're, if you're goal is to do an ironman in sub, let's say ten and a half then actually you can't just kind of keep setting monthly or quarterly goals of well I'm going to do this much running or I'm going to do that. Actually that TSS score is such a lovely way of just going right. My goal for this quarter, my plan says I've got to get to here. That's what my goal is. And it, you can, it just simplifies it a lot and it gives you a specific measurable and a timely goal. So have you got any specific goals that you want to hit for next year?

Well like you actually I am maybe not in such a structured way and I love your kind of life plan. I'm going to download that. That sounds amazing in terms of limitless life plan and planning out. I like you plan out my life in different areas. So I have business goals, life goals kind of come into like my racing as well. I guess that's probably not as defined maybe as your goals there, but certainly I think actually I've become more relaxed about my kind of life goals and I think Covid has really changed that because last year I had some big goals in terms of racing, which didn't really happen because the racing was all over the place. So I do have. I do have some goals in terms of racing. I don't think 100 Ultra will be in there, but who knows, Charlie, you know, end of the arc you might have got the bug will be in there and then, yeah, business goals I've already set. So that's really exciting. And I actually, I think setting goals, you have to be excited by it, don't you, as well, and stretching that kind of that goal as much as we can. So certainly from a racing perspective, being able to qualify for the world championships is definitely on my radar. I'm really sort of hoping that sort of comes. Comes through if the year goes. Goes to plan, I guess. And there's just so many. There's just so many different elements, isn't there, at the moment? You know, you've got. You've got to be in. In really good shape at the right time to be able to qualify as well. So.

But I think you made a really good point earlier on as well that, you know, and the last two years couldn't be a better example of this where you've got to re. But you've got to be able to reassess your goals because occasionally things come at you like Covid and you're like, well, you know, actually the start of the year, the goal was to have our best business year ever or my best fitness year ever.

Mid.

Mid point in the year. You're like, holy crap. You know, if we're still alive at the end of this year, this will be a. This will be progress. So we, we have a principle in our business where we'll review. We'll review every goal at the midpoint. So for the one year's goals, at six months, we reassess, is that still the right goal? Do we need to change it? Have we totally missed the mark on it? And it is that one opportunity to kind of reassess, kind of. Because you're at the halfway point, you've got a good understanding of it. And there's a brilliant book called when by Dan Pink. Fantastic book. Talks a lot about exercise and when you should do it at the start or end of the day and. But there's a lot of psychological principles around the midpoint of Anything. So the midpoint is a really good time to just kind of go. It's like, like half time in a football match. You pause, rethink, go again. And there's some research that says for teams that are one goal down at half time, they win more often than. I can't remember exactly what the status. I know Dan Pink talks about it in the book, but it's that midpoint. Right, okay, we've got to go again and in a different way. And yeah, so the midpoint in anything is a good opportunity to reassess. And so yeah, that's, that's how we go about it.

I think it's working with kind of lots of different people as you do. I think for quite a few people that are kind of all or nothing, so they think very sort of on or off I call it, or black and white. The goal setting can actually be destroying because they set such big goals that they don't necessarily then plan out to review and recess and actually go. You know, actually it's okay that I'm not quite where I need to be, but what do I need to do to get there? It's almost like the goals are kind of set and then they feel that they've really failed when, you know, a couple of months in or you know, into that quarter, they haven't got to where they want to be, so they just give up. And I'm sure you come across that a lot as well. So working with people.

There's a saying in a book that I can't quite recall at the moment, but it's basically along the lines of idiots have goals, winners have systems. So you do need the goal, but if you don't have the system that's going to deliver the goal, it's just a meaningless statement on a piece of paper because, and I mean, I don't completely agree with that because you can watch, there's lots of documentaries or books around people that wrote down a random goal and, and they didn't revisit it at all. And yet they ultimately went back to it years later, went, oh my God. I think there was one with. Sure it was Richard McCaw, the All Black that, you know, wrote down what his goals were as a sort of 17 year old rugby player and he went back to that piece of paper 15 years later was like, oh my God, I can't believe how much of that I did. But I think for the vast majority of people, if you want to, if, you know, generally if you just write down a goal and forget about it, it will become meaningless unless you've got it really ingrained in your head. Whereas kind of revisiting it and having that system in place is what keeps pulling you back to it and keeps reassessing and then, and then, yeah, you're much more likely to hit and even if you don't hit it, you're much more like, you know, if, let's say the goal is a ten and a half Ironman and you're absolutely, you know, reassessing those goals, you know, you might hit 1033, but if you hadn't had the goal in the first place and reassessed it, it had probably been over 11 hours. So, you know, it improves you even if it doesn't, even if you don't hit it.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Right. Well, on that note, let's dive into the interview with Jackie Her. Jackie Herring is a professional triathlete, a mum of two, a coach and also a race director living in Wisconsin. She grew up swimming competitively and then built herself up towards Ironman distance. But then after having children, she changed her focus to the 70.3 distance and has risen to the very top of it. She won her match in the Collins cup, she's just recently won Clash Daytona and she's a five time 70.3 champion as well as winning Ironman Wisconsin. But she just appears to be going from strength to strength despite having to fit her training around her parenting duties. So I wanted to chat to Jackie about her self coached, flexible approach to training, her tactics in the Collins cup, which I absolutely love, and also the benefits of snowshoeing in the winter for improving her run strength and technique. So I know you're going to take loads out of this interview and conversation with Jackie Herring. Today's show is brought to you by Precision Hydration, who help athletes personalize their hydration and fueling strategies so that they can perform at their best. They work with a long list of incredible athletes, including multiple 70.3 champions, Sam Appleton and Sarah Crowley. You check out their details@precisionhydration.com and that also includes details of their quick carb calculator to help you understand how much carbohydrate you need per hour to perform at your best. So they're trying to do for fueling what they've already done for hydration. And as a listener of the show, you can get 15% off your first order of electrolytes or fuel using the code Tribeathlon15 at the checkout. So Jackie, welcome to the Tribeathlon podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm really looking forward to chatting to you today, particularly after the amazing weekend you've just had. So do you want to kick things off for the, for the. I'd like to ask everybody, for those people that don't know that much about you, so want to tell us a bit about how you got into triathlon? Tell us about your story and about your sort of successes and key moments along the way.

Yeah, sure. Thanks for having me first off and, and I'm always excited to do new podcasts and I guess tell my story. I don't really know. I don't have my story dialed like a lot of people, but I'll do my best version. I got into triathlon not until after college, but I can go, go back even before that, which was I kind of grew up as a swimmer. My mom got me on swim team when I was 6 or 7 and she ended up being the coach of the swim team. And so we were all in swimming and I had a couple younger brother, a younger brother and a younger sister. And they tried it but weren't big fans. But I was a pretty focused child. I just loved, loved exercise, loved swim team. I was just all in, standing at the door, didn't want to be late for practice type of kid. And I did that and soccer and running and just kind of any sport that was available growing up. And in high school I swam and ran track and then I was super injured most of high school running, so I decided to go swim just in a smaller school in Wisconsin. And it was out there that I realized I love swimming. But I think I had peaked pretty much in high school and I wasn't going to get any faster. So I did not do anything good while I was there with the swim team at all. I actually made a bunch of poor choices and quit swim team after a couple years and studied abroad, had to work full time to pay for that. And then senior year I had started running and had just hopped in a couple marathons and ended up joining the track and cross country team and really kind of found my love for running and just getting out on the trails. And it was that summer after college that I hopped into my very first sprint triathlon and it was in lacrosse where I went to college. And funny story is I was still hanging on to, I think, a bit of my swim fitness just being just a little removed from college swimming. So I was the first one out of the water in the whole entire race. And I, I don't even know if I'd ever watched a triathlon. So I had no clue what was what. I had nobody telling me anything, not even sure how I got signed up for this thing. But I rolled it, got into transition and I was like, oh, dear, like, what do I do? I was putting on a, like changing full outfit. I mean, just kind of stood there for a bit. And then I saw the next. I think a guy came in next. And I just stood there with my mouth wide open, watching him go through transition, as you should, like, you know, hustling, grab your bike and out he goes. I'm like, ah, okay, learn something. And I went out and, you know, I was on like a borrowed steel frame bike and it's just. Just real amateur stuff going on. So did Dabbled. I was a dabbler in triathlon for a few years there and eventually kind of started moving up the distance and realized that, you know, the longer stuff posed much more of a challenge. And I kind of enjoyed that challenge. So got into Ironman racing. It was about eight, 13 years ago. Did my first Ironman in 2008, and despite not knowing what Kona was, I qualified for Kona. They're like. So I was like 22 or 23 years old and which ages me a little bit. Whoops. I did the race. They're like, oh, good job, you won. Now here, write us a check for this. And you gotta sign up for. You gotta sign up for the world champs. I was like, all right, world champs sound cool. But I don't think I had that amount of money in my bank account. So I had to like, quick, like, call up my mom, like, hey, can I, you know, I need to borrow some money or a credit card so I can go do konas. But hey, it was worth it because, you know, I caught the Ironman bug there and then after a couple years and several Ironmans turned pro in 2010 and that's. That raced Ironmans till I had kids.

And then, and then, and then. So you had two kids, I think, didn't you? Is that right? How old are they now?

Now they're three and a half and five and a half.

And were the. Was it having kids that then. Because you then. You've really now focused on 70.3, haven't you? So was it kids? That was kind of the line in the sand and it was Iron Man's mostly before kids and afterwards 70.3. Is that right?

Yeah, that's totally right. And I think it was something about having kids that also, well, completely changed me, which anyone who has kids will know, but it completely fixed. I think a lot of things that were wrong for me. I struggled always with not feeling like I had a real clear purpose and becoming a mom kind of cleared that up for me. I have a purpose and it's kids. And triathlon is something I do to just. It just makes me feel good. But it gave me just a much better sense of myself. And yeah, switching to the half just makes sense for our family and for the time I have available.

Fantastic. Well, we're going to talk about how you manage that time, because I know that's a. There'll be people instantly asking, as I am, you know, how do you do all of this stuff with two children? So that will definitely come back to that. But to finish this story. So what do you think your key successes were? Well, let's break it into two, because it feels like there's two chapters here. What were your. What your key success or your key success prior to children and then since children?

So prior to kids, I did manage to win my home Ironman here in Madison, Wisconsin. And I think that was at a very, like, pivotal and challenging time for me. It was just over a year after my dad died, and it was like kind of that whole year and a half before, like, just sorting through. Through all that and to be able to really kind of dial myself into a mode where, like, all right, I need to not, you know, not be in the dumps and focus on a goal really helped guide me through that time. And so that was a really huge, huge deal for me personally. And then also I won my before kids. I won my first 70.3. And that was the first time that I caught a glimpse that I might actually have some speed available within my body. Because before that, I was just all slogged down with all this Ironman training. And when I, you know, did my normal, like, run from behind, you know, and won this thing just barely, I. It, like, it got this idea in my head like, oh, this is awesome. It was so fun. I was done by lunch. Like, I want to figure out how to race these correctly. And so those were two, like, really big. My bigger moments, I guess, before kids and since having kids, my main focus has been honestly trying to get faster on the bike so I can keep up with. With the people and then continuing to kind of find my speed on the run, which has been a really fun project.

You are. Would you say that running is your strongest asset? I mean, you're super quick on the running, aren't you? But I'VE heard that you don't spend quite so much time on the swimming. Is that, is that right?

Yeah, yeah.

I don't know. That's a problem that I continue to need to address. But yeah, I probably only swim. I mean, it's actually probably embarrassing. I swim maybe like 10 to 12k a week. I swim three or four times, but it's hard. I don't have a squad here. I, you know, I have sometimes one or two people to swim with, but a lot of time by myself. And I think when you've been swimming your whole entire life, there's only so much that you can tolerate.

And is it also that, you know, if you put in, you'd have to put in significantly more hours to really kind of see marked improvements, whereas on the bike and on the run, perhaps you feel that there's more to gain. Is that. Do you think that's the case?

I do think that's the case, yeah. I think exactly what you said. I would have to put in probably double the amount of time swimming than I am currently. So like three or four more hours a week to maybe swim in that next group up maybe. But I could put that time into biking and figure out how to just bridge that gap on the bike. It seems more better bang for my buck. Time investment plus more enjoyment.

And so what. Sorry, I might have missed this, but what was your key highlight? You know, you. Of your post post children racing.

So far, my key highlight highlights. Well, the coolest thing I've ever done is was that Collins Cup. Honestly, it was amazing. It was so. Such. Just the whole experience being in the hotel, in the cafeteria, just. They had us all in the same place. It just had this like sense of camaraderie that I've never felt ever before with, with people from, you know, the top people in the world from every country. It was just really amazing to just be able to get to sit down and chat with, with people like that that have accomplished so much and people in all different kind of parts in their career too. You know, there's a lot of, a lot of younger, younger athletes there and then there was a few more that have been doing it a long time and it's just really neat.

So I definitely want to talk to you about the Collins Cup. I mean, it was a, it was obviously a very hyped up event and it was a fantastic event. Do you think it lived up to the hype both in terms of for the athletes, for your experience, but also for the public's experience and the Format, you know, did it live up to the hype?

I think so. It's interesting for the athletes, the main conversation that was going on there was, you know, six months before it, everybody was like, whatever, we're just going to blow through, like, train through Collins Cup. Like, people weren't really taking it seriously. And as it got closer, there was this sense like, oh, wait, like, this is a big deal. And then when we got there, we're like, okay, this is a big deal. And you, you know, you don't want to look like a fool and get your butt kicked by, you know, in front of everybody. Like, this is the real deal, whether you want to or not. You know, you're going to race.

There's hiding, is there?

There's no hiding. You got to race your brains out. And, And I think once we were all there, we realized, like. Like, it was just awesome. And it's going to truly, like, bring everything out of you because. Because look, yeah, there's nowhere to hide. And, and you want to win just cause. Just cause you want to win. And it's kind of like a pride thing.

So what I think. I think you see it in golf, don't you, with the Ryder cup versus, you know, individual tournaments, that the passion that comes out, both from the supporters and the players is on an entirely different level in the Ryder cup than it is on an individual tournament. And, yeah, so I suppose that's. That's the, the most similar experience, isn't it? And, and did you, did you get that feeling amongst the supporters as well?

Yeah, I mean, it seemed, I think they learned a lot about how they can manage the coverage with that many different races going on. And I think it's going to be like an evolving product that probably the coverage will get better and better each year. But it felt like. It felt cool because it did feel like I was getting messages from all sorts of triathlon fans from the US that probably, like, for me especially, have probably never heard of me and are like, oh, you know, rooting you on. And, yeah, it felt very patriotic, especially for us. Like, getting the Olympians on our team was. Was kind of a big deal, just fresh out of the Olympics, and it was cool to, to pick their brains and hear their stories coming from short course racing and, and all that. So, yeah, it's good.

And so just thinking about the Collins cup, what do you think they could do to really make it even better next time?

Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, I loved. I just loved the one, you know, the One on, one on like the three person matches. I really love that. I just love that you can't rely on other people to do the race for you. You just gotta do it type racing. So I don't know if I would change the actual format although I'm sure that's up for discussion. But I don't know, I would have to brainstorm on that.

What about the coverage? I think I heard you saying you wanted to see more data in the, in the coverage. Is that, is, is that right?

Yeah, I think that would be very interesting. Just like more data but also making sure you're like finishing the stories that you're telling. So you know, when I watch some of it, it's like they would show, talk about this big battle going on but then wouldn't really follow through and be like, oh, here's what happened in that battle. And so I think there was just so much going on that it was hard to tell every story. So I don't know if that means like doing the men and women like more separated or, or something so that, so that it can be a little more clear for the viewers actually what's going on and you know, if they get caught up in some battle so that they can actually see what happened in that battle. Yeah, I think gives some good closure.

Yeah, I think, I think so. And I also agree with you on the data. I think, I think that would be really interesting to see sort of power and heart rate and all that sort of thing kind of. I can see that becoming really interesting. How did you. I remember hearing you talk about your race tactics or there were some sort of tactics coming out both before the race when you were chatting to anyone and then there were some tactics coming out in the race. So in terms of just general race tactics like you know, going out hard or what. What did your tactics differ from a traditional 70.3 in the comments Cup?

You know it? Yes.

Yeah.

I mean, well, yes and no. My tactic is lose as little time as possible on the swim, like maintain any sort of contact with any sort of person. I mean I'm not last but I'm usually like in the second or like middle of the pack type of swim. But and then I mean, yeah, my tactics for this, it's like all you have to do is beat the people you're racing. So I had to get a sense of where they were at and then also do a little homework on, on where I thought I could beat them. And it was hard cause they made ours like the runners match. So Brutal. But you know, the only way to really, you know, make it split was with if, if I could gap Annie on the swim and then if me and Jeannie could work together on the bike was the only way that I saw it working out in my favor. And then still I had no idea if I'd be able to run faster than Jeannie. So that is luckily how it worked out is we, we were able to gap her while Jeannie gap to be on the swim. I almost could stay with her, but not quite. And then I caught her. I rode as hard as I possibly could to catch her pretty quickly and then asked her if she wanted to work together and she said yeah. So we did that.

And what does working, working together mean on the, on the bike? You know, how does that, how does that work?

Well, it just means like taking turns at the front and, and in Collins cup and, and the Clash series, I should say that they have the 20 meter draft zone. So even if you're like working together, you're not getting a humongous benefit by being the person that's behind. It's more like a motivational benefit. Like hey, okay, like I'm with this person and when you go behind them, you might be doing almost the same Watts, but you're getting a mental break from having to set the pace. It's more like just keep the gap and then when it's your turn, you kind of go up there and hammer for five or 10 minutes and then you get a little break. So yeah, it's more of like I think a mental benefit that you're in the race with somebody and yeah, kind of working together. Ish.

Because I mean I'd be used to a 12 meter draft and that, that obviously doesn't feel like there's much help, but maybe a little bit. But yeah, 20 meter, you can't see there being a huge amount of physical benefit, but I get that. Yeah, from a mental benefit point of view that, that helps.

I think it's a huge mental benefit. Yeah, just feeling like you're not out there alone.

So, so tell me the story. Remind me, what was the game you were playing with Annie beforehand before the race started?

Well, I was trying to get a sense of like her fitness, where she's at in her training, if she was all smashed or if, or if she was doing really good. So I was just. We were on. They had us go on a dinner cruise the night before the race. It was really beautiful. It was on a river. But people were a little like eh, we don't want to visit too much the night before and be chatting and all that. But I made sure to catch up with her. And she had her body work guy there with her. And I was like, you know, hey, how you doing? Like, how's the body? How you doing? You know, trying to get a feel if she was healthy or real good and kind of got out of her that she was, you know, training for Roth. So, you know, but I made sure to tell her, of course, that like it mattered or like she cared. But I made sure to tell her I was in really good shape. I don't know if that maybe it.

Did matter because it worked out.

I think she. She told me after the race she just got lonely on the bike ride. And I get it, it was like torrential downpour. And all I kept thinking is, she's so small, this rain and this wind has got to be affecting her more than it would. Like. I'm, you know, I'm quite a bit taller and bigger than her, so it wouldn't be pushing me around as much. So.

And I seem to remember there was some. Well, I don't even know that they were tactics on the run with Genie, but there was a moment that you. That you broke away from that involved a water, an off. The offer of a drink, wasn't there? Tell me about that. And was it premeditated or was it just, you know, did it just sound funny as it came out?

Well, so the way it went with Jeanne is I, you know, I'd raced her already a few times that year, and, you know, sometimes. Usually she's faster, sometimes not, but we took off out of transition. I was just trying to keep up with her. And then finally, you know, about a mile in, we ran shoulder to shoulder for six or seven miles, 10K. And we were just running. And, you know, that whole time when you're in a battle, we hadn't said a single word. Is completely silent. And in my head, and probably in her head as well, you're just trying to work out, how can I possibly beat this person? Like, we're both at the limit, you know, going as hard as we can, like, what's going to happen? And, you know, she was. I would just like, let her lead down the corners. We got to a windy part. I just tucked in behind her and I saw an aid station up there, and it was coming close. And yeah, it wasn't like a premeditated tactic per se, but it was just the way that she responded that made me make the decision to Go. But, yeah, I asked her. We got closer and no, no words had been spoken until this moment. And I go like, hey, you want me to get you a water? And she just kind of like whooped her head sideways and looked at me and I was like, all right. We're like, I think I freaked her out. She said, no, she does not want the water from me. So I just went ahead and grabbed mine. And then there was. There was like our like, lead pacer thing. And I just like, got it in my head, like this was the time to just like go run as fast as I could and pretend like I was trying to catch that. That lead pacer vehicle. And, you know, they don't let you catch them, so you just. I just kept trying to run faster and faster and I. Strict, strict rule never to look back. So I didn't look back and I thought she might have come with me. But then after about a mile, I finally took a little peek and realized I'd made a pretty good gap. So it worked out fantastic.

It must have been quite an amusing moment, though, because I think I get the impression if somebody. If you're battling with somebody and they. And they offer you a drink, it's basically them saying, you look knackered. So, yeah, that's really good. But it did. It did strike me as a brilliant format. And I've spoken to a few people about it and kind of some of the pros and former pros are like, well, I'm not sure. But ultimately brought a different audience to the sport, didn't it? And that can only be a good thing in a similar sort of light. So you've just had an amazing win at Clash, Daytona, challenged Daytona last year. So other than the name change, how is that. There was a lot of hype around that race in particular last year. How did you think that race compared this year to last year, both in format and everything else? I suppose.

There were a lot of similarities, but also a lot of differences because last year it was the PTO Championships, right? Because. And it was essentially the World Championships for lack of, I mean, an official term. Everybody felt as if it was the World Championships because we had no races, no champs. And so I think that's why last year you saw literally everybody under the sun, showed up, and it was amazing. It was awesome. And I think those of us that were there this year, we were looking for that type of like, super strong field. But the reality is there's been way tons and tons of racing this year and now we're Seeing the aftermath of people, I think racing a ton and that is a lot of injury, a lot of tired out people and a lot of people also just taking probably a smart break right now is they're going to get ready for, you know, the St. George World Champs in the springtime. So I think a lot of factors led to this year just being a smaller field, which was fine, there's still some good girls there, but. And in general, not as much hype because the PTO wasn't there. So. But we still had like, there was still obviously great coverage. They still cared for us really well and did a bunch of photos and got to do cool stuff and meet some of the NASCAR folks and that's always pretty sweet.

And you took I think six minutes off your time from the previous year, didn't you? Which is, that's a.

Well, I had five minutes of penalty last year, so.

Okay. Oh well. So in that case. Yeah, so I'm about.

Yeah. Except last year I felt it was like last year I felt amazing. This year I felt like garbage the whole entire day. So I'm actually really proud of finishing, like figuring out how to win because I. It was just a day where like nothing really felt smooth or easy. I was just kind of grinding the whole time. So I was overcoming some demons out there.

Well, it looked pretty fantastic from where I was. I was watching. So let's talk about training with children and because clearly this is, you know, as a, as a parent of two children a bit older than yours, I find it amazing that you get all of that. I mean, I know that you're a professional, but how do you train around spending so much time with the children and how have you had to engineer it to allow that to deliver you performances that just seem to be getting better and better?

Well, yeah, I mean, it's all kind of a balance and sorting out, I guess what takes priority when and, and that ebbs and flows based on, based on the days and times of year and the schedule that I found that seems to work for me, that I've been doing essentially like when each kid turned, it was like six or seven months when I would start them going, going somewhere Monday, Wednesday, Friday, so they go three days a week to childcare. Well, the oldest one is in kindergarten now, so he just started every day, which is crazy. But the littlest goes three days a week. And then my big thing has been like training has never been that serious. I'm not a real obsessive type of triathlete, so it's Been pretty fluid to, to keep the kids involved in it. A lot of the times I did a ton of stroller running and just, I don't know, just being flexible in general, I guess with the schedule where sometimes on those Tuesday Thursdays I have to wake up early and do an early session or do something in the evening or, or not do something, you know, or just have an off day.

So.

So yeah, I think staying flexible has probably been my biggest, biggest thing with having success there and not stressing if, if I miss stuff. But seasonally, as, as bigger races get closer that I care more about, I would say definitely I make sure to plan and you know, communicate to my husband like, hey, this week I'm going to need like two hours on Tuesday, two hours on Thursday. Just being really clear with my needs and what I need to accomplish to get done what I need to get done. And then look, that's two hours out of a whole entire day and then I can be mom. So I think, yeah, just having really clear communication and a husband that honestly understands that, that it's kind of a balance doing what I do and yeah, that's it.

And you're self coached, aren't you? So does that, does that allow you to kind of just be even more flexible? Is, you know, is that, is that the main reason you do it? And do you therefore sort of do more on feel? You know, some days you're not feeling it so you don't do so much, you know. How has being self coached helped you in that environment?

Yeah, so I am self coached and I had coaches before I was pregnant. And yeah, it's that thing, especially right away coming back like right after you have the kids. I don't think any person should have a coach. This is your own body and nobody else can feel what you're feeling. And if you're having some sort of guilt about trying to check a box about a certain workout, but you slept like two chunks of two hours or something terrible. I mean, I just don't understand how that makes any sense. So I just, I have a good sense personally of my body and I just place such high, I don't know, just high importance on listening to the signals that your body's giving you, whether some days, you know, some days you do feel crap and then once you get going, you feel a lot better magically and that's cool, then you roll with it. But some days you get going and you don't feel better, you feel worse and worse, then you need to stop, you know, and I don't think it's rocket science. And that's not stuff that a coach is going to be able to know because a coach isn't within your body. So I'm just big on, yeah, kind of intuitive training and an intuitive. I don't know. Yeah, just listening to the signals your body's giving you. And with that, like, I mean, I'm not. I don't just do nothing if I feel, like, tired. I understand also, because I've been doing it a long time. I understand the work that does actually need to get done to be able to be good enough to race. So, yeah, it's a balance, I think.

Does Meredith call them all right? Does she call them web workouts? Why even bother? Is that. Was it. Or was it a different term for it? I can't remember.

Oh, that's a great term, though.

Yeah, I think she. She says sometimes, you know, you start and you don't feel it and you go, do you know what? I might as well just pack up now. Why? Yeah, it might even be. It might have been a totally different phrase. But she has got something for that that I thought you might know. You think your performance is getting better and better? Do you think there's any, any. Anything behind the fact that, you know, do you think having children could have actually improved your endurance? Has it changed your. Has it changed your physique?

My physique? I mean, it changes your body.

Well, yes, I'm sure it should.

I do not feel the same. I have a huge gap in between my abdominal muscles. You know, I'll tell you, I think it has made me a better athlete, but maybe not for the reasons that you might think. I think for me personally, it helped me to just become a better functioning human, like, just realize the importance of sleep, the importance of. I mean, I was never a super unhealthy eater, but just eating right, cooking at home, not drinking every single day, just stuff like that that I think really matters when you just stack it day after day and year after year. And I think finally I'm reaping the rewards of. I've been doing this a long time, but now finally I've got five years under my belt of not doing harmful things to my body, actually sleeping during the night, caring for myself by eating healthy and listening to my body. And I wasn't necessarily doing that in my 20s. I was doing some. Some screwy stuff and still going out with friends that don't have to wake up in the morning and do workouts and, you know, just not functioning like a professional should be functioning. So I think since like truly becoming a professional in that sense is what has helped my performance kind of come up.

That's interesting. So, and is that because something you said right at the start, which is that you found your purpose, you know, have you got a more, a bigger why now?

Yeah, yeah, I think that's it. It's like, well, yeah, you can't, you gotta pick what you're gonna do. And I feel like for me, if I was gonna spend this time away from my family now, like this better be something that I'm like doing correctly and doing actually the best I can and not just dabbling and screwing around and just kind of being a part time pro triathlete. Like, I was either like, all right, I'm all in, I'm doing this or I'm going to go find myself a different job because I don't want to just do a crappy job.

And I was actually, I'd already got down to ask you, ask you something that you've just alluded to, but it was that. Has your approach to nutrition changed since having children? It sounds like you said you eating healthier. So do you want to give us some examples of how your, your approach to your nutrition has changed?

Well, I think kids are interesting because their, their bodies are just on like a meal timer. You can't like skip meals, you can't skip snack especially or you'll be in a million problems. But it helped me realize like, all right, we eat breakfast, we have snack, we have lunch. And I got on like this routine with them and, and we cook all our food and we don't go out. And you know, on occasion we go out. Sure, people do, but, but I think it's just, yeah, it just kind of got me like, yeah, we just eat. When your tummy's full, you stop eating. That's that you wash your dish and you put in the dishwasher and you're not snacking all day and you're not, you know, going up for seconds and thirds. You're just eating the food on your plate and go about, go do your next thing. And I don't know, is that way too simple? But that's what it is.

So you haven't changed your approach in sense that you haven't sort of gone more towards, you know, like vegetarian or anything like that. It's just essentially doing it more, more sensibly around because of other people having to eat with you?

Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I'm the Most, I don't like to be, like, held down by any type of rules of any sort, and especially around my eating. So I eat, you know, I eat like a normal. I don't know what normal is, but I just eat food, bread, meat, whatever they put in front of me. I drink dairy even. Look out, world.

And in this day and age. So when I was chatting to Meredith about you, not on the podcast, obviously, but when she said that she. Happy to introduce me to you, she said you're not as outgoing on social media as some athletes. And it strikes me that in this day and age, to be a professional triathlete, kind of, it's all. It's like running your own business, isn't it? You've got to. You've got to sort of put yourself out there and have a. Have a, you know, incredibly active social media profile. What are your thoughts on that sort of social media side of being a pro triathlete? Is it something you embrace reluctantly? Do you kind of enjoy it, but try not to let it get in the way of children? You know, what are your thoughts around it?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's hard for like, myself or Meredith or anybody that, you know, started before the year of 2010, like, none of this existed. Okay. So I think for. For me, maybe if I didn't have kids, I'd be able to have a little more time or energy to, I don't know, to grow with the times or whatever I should have done. But honestly, I think the big boom of all this and I think when a lot of athletes kind of started getting crazy, I was having children and I cared absolute zero. I don't even know. I didn't care anything about it. I wasn't even racing. I was having babies. So, I mean, I see the value in it. I think it's cool. And I love following everybody's YouTubes and, and stuff like that, but I think I only have so much time and I don't want to be a social media star. I want to focus on being the best triathlete I can be, and I don't really care if that makes me famous or not. That's something that does not matter to me.

Does it affect your relationship with sponsors? Because I would imagine that sponsors are, you know, putting a fair bit of pressure on people to get it out there. How does that affect you?

Yeah, it probably does. There's probably tons of contracts I have not got because I don't have X number of followers. And I don't know how that makes Me feel bothered, I guess, but I don't know, I don't have the capacity to address it. So, I mean, yeah, I mean maybe that's a fault of mine and maybe something I should have addressed a few years ago. But you know, I'm been in the sport a while, I'm going to do it a few more years and if, if there's most of my sponsors and brands I work with, I've been working with for probably almost 10 years. So they've grown with me and they know me before, you know, before I'm like doing as well as I'm doing now and they're fine. Like they get it. I'm balancing a lot more things and a lot different life than most everybody else I'm competing with.

And ultimately the results will, will do the talking in the main when they, you know, yes, the social media stuff I'm sure is important to them, but if you're standing on the top of the podium then then that's got to be better for them, isn't it?

Right. Yeah. So. And I think the way that they do it with me, which might be different than some people, is just like a really heavy bonus structure, you know, separate from where some of the social media stars, maybe they have a salary or something like that. I have no idea. All of that's like super confidential from athlete to athlete. But I mean I'm happy, I love my sponsors, I'm appreciative of any support and it's been just so nice being with so many of my longtime partners. I really appreciate all the support.

I find it slightly, I think it's really interesting and I can understand why it's frustrating for some people and the analogy that I, I can kind of relate to is in the book publishing world. So I've had a few books published. But that the question now is not is it a good from the publishers? Is it's not is it a good book? Is or is it a book we can sell? It's how many books are you going to sell? You know, that's what they're saying to the author is right. Have you got X number of followers? Because they're expecting you to sell the books, not them. And it is, it totally changes the dynamics of the book publishing world. And it strikes me that the, that the triathlon world has, you know, has some similarities to that. So. But ultimately, you know, Harry Potter will, you know, J.K. rowling will still sell Harry Potter's and things like that. So you'll have to you there Is there is a place for results first, isn't there? Now, I know you're not massively tech focused, are you? So I wanted to ask you, what if it's not tech related, what products have you found to be really brilliant? You know, what things have you bought or received that you found to be absolutely brilliant? Because it doesn't sound like it's going to be a tech related solution.

It is tech. I love Zwift. Is Zwift a thing that I can say?

Absolutely is. Yeah.

Like honestly, game changer of my life, Zwift plus a smart trainer. I mean, I live in Wisconsin. You have serious winter there, right? Yep.

Not quite as serious as you.

It's really serious. We're about to get snow for the next few months and I mean, I had always ridden a trainer off and on a bit over the winter, but getting, you know, a trainer that can make you do the work, it's just seriously been a game changer for me. And is that like a really good indoor trainer setup is my thing with.

The little shelf with all of the stuff on it.

Oh, all the stuff, yeah.

But so I was just to see. I've seen a photo of you on Zwift and I understand, did the. Am I right in saying the Collins cup didn't have little shelves for your, for your drinks on the.

I had no clue what to do with my stuff. I was a mess. I had. I hung a bag up from the handlebars.

I don't know, was the Zwift thing, is that a post lockdown sort of revelation for you or were you massively into it before, before it all?

Before lockdown kicked off, I was loosely into it and then lockdown like made me become addicted, which is great for me because then, I mean, then I really got into some sort of bike shape. I got. I was swift racing. I joined like an erasing team. I was like all in. So it really helped me. It helped me so much and it, it kept me focused through lockdown and yeah, it really kind of gave me honestly a lot of confidence on the bike that I could hold certain power and, and all this stuff that I'd never even worried about before. But I didn't realize I was actually just lacking a lot of confidence in my bike skills. So it helped me grow a lot.

Awesome. And is there anything. I've often thought that when you're, when you're cycling on Zwift, it would be nice if you could. If there was kind of like an integrated zoom feature so that you could Chat to somebody. Recycling.

Oh yeah.

I mean obviously you can set up zoom calls and things like that with your mates, but the actual ability to sort of stop and talk to somebody rather than it being via text and companion. Are there any, is there, is there any sort of bolt ons that you would love to be, to be added into Zwift to improve the experience even more?

Well, I've never tried. I feel like they have the trainers that kind of raise and lower and like the fan that adjusts or the fan that like auto blows different intensities of wind at you. I think I would get a real kick out of trying some of that. That might make it feel a little more real or interactive. Those are probably the main ones.

The other one that I've only just thought of, but surely virtual reality's got to be the next way forward, isn't it? That would be.

Oh yeah, that'd be cool.

I would like that, I think. And you mentioned the harsh winters that you get in Wisconsin. You're a big fan of snowshoeing, aren't you? And so how does. And you've actually, you've won some races with your, with your, in your snowshoes. Tell us a little bit about that. Do you think that aids your run? You know, has that really been a significant part in your run speed?

I think so. So I started snowshoeing like the winter of 2014 and it was that next year that I went on to win my first half Ironman. But it was that I think snowshoeing that kind of really helped my run change. And essentially I think what it did is you really can't have like lazy or sloppy form on the snowshoes or you'll just fall straight down on your face. So if you're not picking up your feet, doing the knee drive, I mean landing correctly, you fall down, you face plant. And I think for me just having, having that and getting experience on the snowshoes and running tons really helped sort out my run. And every year I come off winter and my run feels better than, better than ever. So I look forward to that now.

So that's interesting. So I was assuming it was a strength thing, but it sounds to me like it's more of a technique thing, that it just really refines your technique. Is that, is that what you're saying?

I think initially it is, yeah. Once you, and once you learn how to run, I guess and if you already have good technique going on snowshoes, then yes, it's definitely a strength builder because yeah, you're not going fast, really. And it's, it's just like trail running, but a bit harder. So definite. You get strong.

Fantastic. And I always like to ask people on the podcast, what books have you found that have inspired you? Or if not books, then other things like podcasts or whatever. But I try and focus on books because they've been a huge influence on me. So are there any books that you found really impactful or find yourself recommending to other people?

I am a huge reader. I probably read like five books a month, so. Okay. Biggest. I love the book Essentialism. And then the next book that that guy just wrote, which just came out a month or two ago, is called Effortless. And it's all about his main, main question you're supposed to pose to yourself in, like, difficult scenarios is like, how can this be done easier? Just about any scenario. It was just a great read. But you got to read Essentialism first because that one's awesome. I think that guy's from the uk.

I'm just trying to think. I, I, I have heard of those books, but I haven't read them and I don't think they're on my reading list. So they will, oh, they're awesome. They, they sound fantastic. And nobody's mentioned those before, so I'm, I'm, I'll be checking those out. You can't remember the guy's name, can you? Don't worry.

Greg. Greg Newsome.

Okay.

I can send you it afterwards, but.

I'll put, I'll put it on the, I'll track it down and put it in the show notes afterwards.

Super good. Yeah. Essentialism. A life coach friend of mine had me read. It was like, in 2015. I read that book and I've read it since, like, once a year just to get my bearings straight. And then I also loved, I like, you know, I like the Ryan Holiday stuff, but Ego is the Enemy was a really good one for me. And it's just, you know, just against the ego. Love it.

Brilliant.

Well, those, those are recommended. So typically when I ask triathletes, they're kind of, they're more. There's a lot of biographies and things like that. So those are fantastic. I love the sound of them. And I'll be checking those out. Thank you. A question I haven't asked for a while, but I'm going to ask you because you've kind of had several stages through your career. What's the worst advice that you hear given around the triathlon world?

The worst advice is probably just push through. Go harder, keep. Don't give up. Maybe not don't give up, but don't give up. But don't push through. If you're getting all the signals to stop, then just stop. Unless you're in a race, then don't stop.

Don't stop in a race for any other time.

No, any other time. Just don't push through. Just don't.

That's great advice.

Thank you.

And the law. And the last question to ask is, what are you most looking forward to in the year ahead? You know, what, what, what's, what's really exciting you about next year?

I'm super excited to see what the PTO is going to come up with for their. They're supposed to have three races that they're announcing really soon and they haven't told anybody or any of us. And I can't squeak it out of anybody. Nobody will leak it. I'm super pumped to see what they're going to be, where they are and what distances, because I, I am extremely motivated to train when I know I'm going to be racing really fast people and be very, very challenged. So. So that's what's like, is exciting to me, is I want to go there and get my butt kicked by Lucy Charles and I'm going to enjoy every moment of it and I will train super duper hard so that she doesn't beat me by so much and I'm not super embarrassed and that's fine. So can't wait.

And do you think, you know, do you think as later on you'll go back to Iron man at all, or do you think you'll do. That's just something. You've been there, done it and not so much.

I'm not totally sure on that one. I do occasionally get feelings that I might want to try it again.

But.

My youngest, let's see, in two years she'll be in kindergarten. So I feel like maybe when I have a full actual work week, not that I'll train, I probably won't train all that many more hours, but. But I feel like I'll have a little more space to like, take a couple naps, clean my house, things that will just, you know, I'll just feel like I have a little more time than I might. Yeah.

Fantastic. Jackie, it's been absolutely brilliant chatting to you. Thank you so much. It's a brilliant story. And what is so impressive is the success that you're having with two young children. I think it's absolutely amazing and so Yeah, I can't wait to see how it evolves over the coming years. So thank you so much for coming on.

Yep. Thank you for having me.

Best place to find out more about Jackie Herring is jackiehering.com or on Instagram where she is Jacky M. Herring. So, Claire, what did you make of the conversation with Jackie Herring?

Yeah, I loved it. I was particularly kind of excited to learn a bit more about the Collins cup as well. It was something that I kind of knew of. I knew what it was all about, but I actually didn't know the proper rules or anything. So actually it made me go and read it. But I think it's a really exciting race and I think there's definitely something in triathlon in terms of how we promote triathlon a little bit more to be more mainstream and on tv. And I know we talked before about kind of the Olympics and the relays and how exciting that is to engage, to engage an audience as well. So that for me at the beginning was really, was a really great sort of introduction about sort of her racing that as well.

I think, I think you're right. I think anything that triathlon can do to bring the sport to different audiences, you know, it's like cricket, isn't it? You know, the cricket and well, they had the hundred this year and before that was 20, 2020 was introduced and it just brings a totally different audience to the sport and I've got every confidence that it will continue to build over time, but just because it's such a different format. I loved her race tactics around that. I love the sort of like the kind of mental dig at Annie Howe the night before and then the, the, the asking Jeannie if she wanted a bottle of water midway through the run. I just thought, I thought, I don't know how much of that is kind of premeditated and how much of it just when you look back on, worked well. But I thought it was really interesting.

Yeah. And of course it's nothing like when we race kind of Ironman or 70.3 or a sprint distance or whatever you're racing. You, you know, that's not how we race. We generally like when we're full pelt on, we're not speaking to other athletes generally. Um, you know, and I think, I think it's really interesting to, to kind of maybe that is what happens when you race side by side with somebody.

Well, it's, again, it's, I suppose and I mentioned it's essentially the equivalent of the Ryder cup in golf. But when you watch the players playing in the Ryder cup, it is a totally different mindset to when they're playing in any major. You know, because when they're playing in a major, they're playing on their own, they're really competing against themselves. Whereas in the Ryder cup, in the match plays, it's all about, you know, competing as a team and you're playing an individual or a couple of individuals. And so it's that same principle. And it, you know, Tiger woods never played well in the Ryder cup, and yet he's the most successful golfer ever. Just. Just shows how it's a totally different mindset. What else did you take from. I thought it was really interesting how she trains around having two children. What did you make of that?

I think it's great. Like, I absolutely love her really individual way of training that she trains herself. I mean, she's obviously got experience. We can't all go out there and train ourselves. If you're new to triathlon, then it's probably not the best idea. But actually, this kind of, it rolls into the ethos behind the way that I think can work as well in terms of we have to be able to listen to our bodies. And as athletes, we're really good, we know our bodies so, like, so well. And I think, you know, what she brought to kind of that conversation was when she talked about having the children. And it really changes. You really change your body. You have such good body awareness as a. As an athlete anyway, and her being able to be flexible with her training and actually it sounded like didn't stress her out. Well, actually, I was going to train today, but I can't because I've got to do X, Y and Z with the children. But she does try and put things in place to make sure the training happens. But actually, that to me sounds so sensible in terms of training, actually listening to your body, rather than going by training peaks and because it's on there, you know, you know, God forbid if we have a red day and you haven't hit something, but there is something lovely about the way that she trains and it obviously works really well. Which, which really, that's not rocket science, is it? Listen to your body. Your body is brilliant at telling you what to do.

Yeah. And I think, I just think it was really reassuring that, you know, you don't have to be cranking out 35 hours a week to get up to a phenomenal level. I mean, I'm not suggesting that I'm ever going to get anywhere close to her level, but it is Reassuring for those people that have kind of listened to the pros that do churn out 35 hour weeks and thought, if I want to get better, that's what I've got to do. It doesn't have to be about that. And I thought it was interesting how kind of relatively little swimming she does, but the fact that she's just accepted that that's going to, I mean, she's clearly a good swimmer for eight years before, wasn't she?

Yeah.

Background? Yeah, yeah.

So she's clearly got a good, good technique, but she's going to need to double the effort to kind of make significant improvements from where she is. So she realizes that that's not the best way of spending her time. And, you know, I think I feel like the same. I feel like I'm, I'm kind of. If I doubled the amount of swimming I did, I'd probably, I'm sure I'd shave five minutes off my ironman time. But actually if I did put that effort into my running, I could definitely take more than five minutes off.

Yeah, no, absolutely. But I think you're right. I think we, and you know, I hear lots of athletes talk about, well, I've only done X amount of hours. It's like. Well, actually is. And I'm sure many coaches would be able to, you know, comment on this as well. It's not necessarily about the number of hours, is it? It's about the quality of what you're doing and actually whether it's you as an individual. I just had this conversation this morning actually with our strength conditioning coach and you know, actually you've got to listen to your body like, how are you feeling this morning? Like, it doesn't, it doesn't matter whether last week you felt absolutely fine, did the same amount of training, how are you feeling now? And what, you know, what feeds into that, your sleep and everything else that goes around it. And we're not always being sensible and we just push through. And she talked about that, didn't she? Said something about, hang on, athletes don't just keep pushing through like your body's telling you something. And again, we do. Like how often do we, you know, there are times, aren't there, where to get through that session and to get the adaptation from that in terms of the physiological and metabolic adaptations. We have to push through that session. But sometimes we're really stupid as athletes because we push through injury and push through actually when our bodies kind of shouldn't be.

Yeah. And I think I've heard a few People say the same thing. I remember. I think Kat Matthews said it. But the one that was most memorable was Tim Don just saying, no, if I'm feeling a bit rope, you know, if I feel like a slight twinge, I just don't do anything and I just kind of ease off, give it a rest and then, and then you kind of recover that much quicker. You don't make aggravate it and you, and you actually miss out on less training than trying to push on through. And at this time of year that probably is. It seems to be a time of year that I've often picked up injuries where you're kind of, your training's all over the place a little bit and you've just come to the end of a season. So. Yeah, no, that's really good advice. Lots of cracking advice from Jackie Herring, but. Right, okay. Well, I'm just going to wish you a happy New Year, Claire, and I hope you have an amazing 2022 and I've got every confidence it's going to start well in January with, with the arc 50 and, and to everyone else, yeah, happy New Year. I hope you managed to set some amazing goals for 2022 and you can make it your best year ever. And, and in the meantime, keep on training. If you've enjoyed this Tribathlon podcast, please do go to Apple Podcasts and rate it and review it. It massively helps us to deliver a better podcast. It helps people find it as well. So, yeah, go to Apple Podcasts, give us some feedback, give us a rating and a review and please share it with your friends because ultimately that's what allows us to keep delivering more and more of these podcasts. And don't forget to download the tribathlon app for more amazing podcasts, but also to help you train, compete and to build your tribe.

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