sharing economy experiment

Around Lean Startup, which is another thing that has kind of bonded us and probably will be the topic of some of these calls. Just still, you know, still having a vision, still being kind of a passionate entrepreneur, but adding some metrics and data and reality to the, to the, to the mix. Which is why, you know, you know, I end up kind of sounding, you know, my co founder was like, not to throw him under the bus cause hopefully he'll join the next call. Like he was like sort of the. Call him the Grinch behind his back, but he was the realest of the group. And now I find myself taking that role of like, what have we actually learned? And trust, like, is trust really. The thing is, you know, what's really going on here. So yeah, Don was the first one who sort of had liquidity. You talked to yourself about a hyperlocal network. So it's always been cool. You know, in the Netherlands, you know, it's like this cool guy from the Netherlands that has, you know, has liquidity on his platform. How the hell is he doing it? What can we learn from each other? Far enough where, you know, we weren't. Not just distance wise, but also I was kind of going down on it. My site is still live. Like you can still request something on neighbor, but there's a lot of cool things. And so we've been talking ever since we shared an Amstel Light. I believe that day and the rest is history. So we've been talking for pretty much five years. I've sort of taken my other co founder's role to him and so I challenge him. Is that really true? Is that a vanity metric? What have you learned? You know, is outside of Amsterdam, which I think it has. I don't want to give away too much, too much information. And so, so that's it. And so we, yeah, we like, like the invite said, the random invite. We literally just bullshit around ideas. You know, Rachel botsman's book is 10 years old, right. I went back and even looked at Don's Twitter feed collect. We now call it the. I was searching for hashtags like the one you found on Twitter of Sharing Economy. I hadn't heard the call Cons, you know, hashtag in probably five years. That was a huge book. I remember when that book came out, I was like, all right, we're gonna be the Uber. And I don't even think Uber existed. So many. Yeah, we're back and forth here. That's me and Don. At some point we'll just make a video and just kind of play it at the beginning of these calls if they ever have an audience of 10 or more. And then. Yeah, Don, why don't you. What's triggered when you hear about creating a trust network. And then we'll go back to the hyperlocal stuff and then we'll see if. I know there was at least one other guy that wanted to join.

Well, actually I was talking to a fellow founder who is running a sort of like a Dutch task rabbit and they, they failed, but not for a lack of trust. They, they failed because they basically weren't able to get enough people to request tasks. Doesn't really matter for this story. He, he said something today that I thought was insightful. Yeah, insightful. He said, sure, trust is important, but in a way trust is a given. It only becomes important when you lose it. And I think he might be right there. I think if you have some of the basic. Our first version of peer, we had zero trust mechanisms. The only thing it had was a way to reach out to people in your neighborhood. And we would see up to 85% of all requests for stuff being answered by at least one neighbor. This was a request based system. So no ratings, no reviews, no elaborate profiles, no insurance, no identification in any way of the person. Still, people would be lending stuff, they wouldn't be lending the more expensive things. So what we edit nowadays is some insurance. And it looks like that really adds. I don't know, I don't know whether it's trust, but it adds that people dare to share stuff that they would really mind losing. But yeah, I would say the big people will trust you until you disappoint them. So I think you can try a lot in a lean startup way. Like you can try a lot and build a website, build a platform and, and somehow deliver on your promise without making trust the first thing that you need to validate. I think if you tell everybody on your platform, whatever happens will fix it and you keep that promise, then I think you're set. And now you can start validating other hypothesis about the platform. That's my current hunch of about it. And I might be proven wrong somewhere because probably in the past I would have said you don't need any trust. And now I'm saying maybe, maybe for maybe. Maybe trust can be a given and then your next step can be. And then the next step is liquidity because figuring out how to get people to actually use your platform on both sides.

If you follow that line of, you know, it's so funny, those are my Only two kind of real like either lessons learned or things that I want to kind of start stating as fact. Like if you treat trust as a given and then you move to liquidity and then you realize that, you know, demand is harder than supply, it sort of leads us back to kind of some of the things that you and I over the years have kind of locked in as truths. Not, you know, and so if there's any value of this three person call, no offense to our one guest, you know, without just kind of locking that in, you know, on the one hand we want people to learn from our mistakes so that they can kind of keep, you know, rising the rising the tide. On the other hand, you know, maybe that has changed. Certainly some of my data is old, just like me now.

But.

Yeah, and I also think the other interesting point there that you were saying, I feel like now there's a big difference between trusting the human and trusting the stuff and trusting the platform. I think that as far as trusting the stuff, especially like you said, low value, I think that's the one fact of this whole entire thing that like trusting the value of an item to be returned, that's under say 100 or 2 even 250 US or some global. We can use quote in, in Bitcoin if it's more culturally sensitive around the world. I'd say about $100 in value for sure. There's just no question about it that that's not the biggest risk in this model. Now I do think that there's still stuff and you can also say not just our personal, like you know, Airbnb, there was only one, there's basically still only one big horror story, right. And then they, that led to their million dollar policy. Uber certainly has had worse. Like there have been some pretty bad, not just their, not just their politics and stuff, but there have actually been incidents with drivers. So I think there's more there. But again, it's not like the cost of the vehicle that people, you know and all these car sharing platforms. It's, it's not, I'm worried about the cost of my car. It's again, it's the, it's your own personal, you know, safety and your, your kind of anxiety of dealing with another human being for better or for worse. But as far as like the stuff, I think that's been proven, so to speak. And then there's like, you know, the, yeah, the only thing that remains is sort of the personal safety, your appearance of trust, your psychology. Like I've learned a few Interesting lessons that the borrower has more anxiety than the lender, you know, in terms of how do I get this back? I don't want to break it. When can I return it? I don't want it in my house anymore. So I think those are some interesting lessons learned that we can keep on these calls. All right, John, so we'll kind of give you a once a month opportunity to like. It will coach you through something in the next 15 minutes.

I like what you're saying on the trust and yeah, it's a very valid point that trust, I mean, just generally speaking, just even taking out of the context of sharing economy, just generally speaking, it is one of those things where, okay, it's assumed until something happens to change that. So yeah, it's a valid point. I think the, you know, if I, if I put myself in the position of someone who, who has something that, you know, on a P2P basis, let's say who has something. You know, I have a. I don't want to say my guitar because my guitar is my baby. I don't think I would ever, I would ever want to share my guitar. But you know, certain things that I think, you know, I'd be comfortable more than others. So I think I just wonder what kind of people's perception of how trust changes depending on what, what that item might be. It could interesting thing for me to kind of consider, you know, and also thinking about what are the. How does that link then to the kind of things that people, you know? Again, thinking about the kind of P2P stuff, you know, I always think of this from a sustainability point of view, right. You don't want to buy something that you will use once and then never use again, but people will. And people, you know, can then use that to share and you know, what's the perception based on what the different kind of items are and how that changes. I'm kind of rambling a little bit here. I can't quite. I'll bail you out.

I'll bail you out because I'm usually the one rambling, but now I can't resist. I was going to interrupt you a second ago. I do want to get into the sustainability part and maybe that'll be the topic of the next call when we do this properly. And I was just going to say, like I, on the one hand, I like to think I'm not a gimmicky content marketing person. No offense to content marketing, but that's just not usually my style. But I cannot resist right now.

The.

Last gimmick I ran was trying to get a book lent around the world without kind of taking longer than a 10 hour flight, which I actually still think is a good idea. And I want to try it. I want to try with video where people kind of pass a video camera or a phone around the world and take video and we make a documentary. We'll talk about that later. I literally cannot resist. You have a guitar. We're talking about trust. You said you don't know. If we kind of post, we'll get rid of all the video in the beginning and the end and some usable content if Don and I ensure your guitar. Is there. Is there any way. Is there any number. Is there any vetting process? You're talking about local. Can it be just people? You talked about hyperlocal in your town. You talk about value. You talk about type of person putting you on the spot. And if you answer no, I'm still going to post this part of the video with your permission. Your guitar is your baby. Would you have to be there to monitor it for the first hour? Do you want to watch them? Give me a scenario that you would lend out your guitar to who? To whom. And talk to me. You know, is the replacement cost enough? Is it double the replacement cost? Who is the person? What's the scenario? You want to interview them? No, no request. Let's see where the actual. Let's see where the actual limits are. And we just salvaged an hour here.

That's a really, really good question.

Once in a while.

I.

So yeah, I don't know. Let me think. On what terms would. Would that be okay for me? I think. I don't know. I guess it would be someone. Maybe I need to see what. What kind of tunes they were playing, you know, do a little kind of audition or something. You know, make them. If they. If they start playing some Led Zeppelin or something like that, then I think. I think you're good. Maybe.

Maybe.

Kind of a hit list and a shit list kind of, kind of audition process. Maybe that's the way.

All right, so. So I'm gonna warn you. I'm gonna. I'm gonna make some of this. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm a coach in my. For my day job. And so I'm not gonna let you off the hook that easily. You don't have to lend your guitar out at the end of this call if you don't choose to. But I. I'm gonna push you to answer a couple questions and let's see so how much. How much did you pay for the guitar, if you don't mind me asking?

It was around 250 pounds.

And if we insured it for 500 pounds, would that, would that be enough to open it up to literally anyone in the world who wanted to borrow your guitar? Yes or no?

Yes. Yeah.

What about.

I, I don't want to bid against, but I was going to start higher in a thousand. I thought you might say no to even 4x. What about just. What about just replacement costs if you got. If you use the opportunity where you're almost kind of wishing it was broken. Doesn't sound like it because you called it your baby. But replace. If we replace it with the newest guitar out there, would that be enough guitar? Any guitar of your choice?

Yeah, I could think of a suitable replacement, which is my former baby that had to go some time back. So I think if it were replaced with similar to I've had in the past, then I think that would be. That would make me feel more uncomfortable. But I think even, you know, just, I guess just in terms of worth, in terms of replacing one for one, you know, I think I'd be. I'd be happy with that.

I like the way you think, Adam. It's. Insurance companies are always trying to give you the, you know, the worst payout, but this, you know, maybe this is what will help people share more. I like it. It's a nice hypothesis.

All right, so let's. And this wasn't planned. So let's. Let's go through all the, all the component or the elements of trust here. So like, the replacement value is probably the easiest one. So now let's get a little bit harder. Now. It's the type of person. So again, this can get sensitive. You know, we don't want to judge people. So you talked about their style of music. Do you really care about that? You know, have you had your choice or was it tongue in cheek or was it somewhere in between?

Yeah, it was more from a perspective of finding someone who knows how to play and knows how to treat a guitar more from that. And if you can find someone who can play some good guitar music, then. Then that's one way of finding that.

All right, so say. And we talked about liquidity. So if we want to actually get liquidity, which means someone borrowing, I want to go through the whole process here. So replacement is taken care of. Supply has been taken care of. Say you get more than 10 requests, build your selection criteria right, how are you to call them up and Interview them.

You're.

I'm assuming you're not going to have 10 people come to your home. You're going to meet. Is there a. Do you play? Is there a local. Local gig venue where you might meet them and you would meet for. Is there an equivalency in the startup world? We meet for coffee a lot. Is there a. A music equivalency of a practice. Practice place or.

Could be.

Yeah, there's a few practice places, I think also knowing them. Them having them suggest the place and, and knowing what that place is. If that place is a music venue and it's, you know, a place that's well known for its good music. Again, that's another kind of indicator that someone. Someone knows their way around the guitar and is probably can demonstrate that care that I'd be looking for.

I like that filter. I think that's. That's fair. And I'm assuming you wouldn't. You don't want to ship it in the mail. You talked about hyperlocal, but I don't want. I don't want to. To bias you or lead you in any way. Is that true?

Yeah. Yeah.

All right, so. So replacement cost is. And not. Do you want anything in exchange? Don and I also, we've talked about. About the model. Obviously my. One of my huge lessons learned is not even being open to the rental model because borrow is in Nabaro's name, which on the one hand I still. I understand what I was thinking at the time you talked about sustainability, but obviously it's. It's ridiculous that I didn't even entertain the model. But we'll talk about that for another. Another episode, maybe. Donna, I'll finally turn this into a podcast. Do you want anything in exchange? Obviously this sounds like it's turning a little bit of an experiment, you know, just to see if it would. But if this were a little harder to make a hypothetical out of it. But this is going to be fun to do. But just being. Just it being replaced doesn't sound like enough. Maybe to an average listener, but maybe it is. Maybe you do just want to see someone who otherwise wouldn't have a chance to play guitar. Maybe. Maybe your altruism is enough. Let's. I think that's an interesting question. Let's see.

I.

What might be interesting is if someone were willing to, you know, if they're some kind of artist or, you know, and they. They write their own music in exchange for writing a song. Could be interesting.

All right, so that's your high bid. What's your, what's your low bid?

Low bid.

The minimum you would take for this experiment at least.

Yeah, I would say some other guitar maybe. So the guitar as an electric guitar, acoustic guitar will probably be. I'd probably value that. The song, if it has some kind of personalized aspect of the song, you know, maybe talking about something about trust, I don't know.

All right, so obviously, yeah, there's different motivations from the founder side. I, I felt like I was in that situation a lot. I, I wanted to do it just for the learning, not for the, you know, the money or the, or even the access, the other thing. But I guess while we're on this path, what is. So you said let's, let's do the listing right here. What is the. Describe it and someone's gonna hopefully borrow this guitar. So describe it for us. That's the other component.

Okay, so it's. No, I don't have it here. No, no, I don't. It's actually at my desk at work. I use it at lunchtime just to have a little, a little play. Just to keep myself make sure I keep practicing. So. Ibanez. Ibanez. Electric six string electric guitar. New fresh strings just recently restrung. Very good for kind of, kind of a rock and metal sound. Very fast neck. For those that like their guitar solos. Kind of a dark gray burst color. So it's got like a little kind of marbling effect through it. Yeah, I'm almost talking when I describe it.

That's a great point. And that's, that's another element of this is people intention. I have a lot of people. If I was running an experiment for a while, people would, would fill in the form. I say it's totally free. You know, that goes on both sides. The lender and the borrower. The lender has good intentions and then up to the very last minute they get cold feet. The borrower, same thing. You know, they fill out the form, they know it's free, they can be delivered to them and at the last minute, you know, their, their brother or sister or neighbor gives them one, which is ironic because that was the whole point of the platform. So you would say that's an argument in favor of it. But it's also sometimes what has limited our progress or my progress. Existing solutions that are non traditional. So how are they solving the problem? Sometimes they're just going without it. Sometimes they're willing to drive 20 minutes to a friend's house even though we're willing to deliver it for free. Those things again. We'll do that in another episode. All right, so before we let you talk yourself out of it, since we locked in the insurance up front.

You'Re.

Willing to lend the guitar that you just described.

Yep.

You're willing to do it in exchange for either a song being written, a value or access to their acoustic guitar? Yep. So like a short term swap? Short term swap. You're willing to leave your house, not to go to their house. Necessary. Well, let me not lead you down there. Give me all the ways you're willing to make the exchange.

So ideally to meet in somewhere that's I guess, mutually sensible in terms of where we would both be. So ideally in. Ideally in some kind of musical related place or some venue or something. Maybe around Leeds. There's plenty around the Leeds area where I live, so lots of options. I'd be willing for them to come here and swap or to go somewhere maybe let's say 10 or 15 miles. I think. 15 miles.

So you'd be willing to go 15 miles either to their home or to a music venue. And you are willing, you are willing to accept a stranger who has been vetted through either knowing a music. A local music venue and not cheating to your home during.

I think for adult.

During doorsteps works over the weekend.

All right.

Over weekend. Does it have to be at night? In the morning? What time of day are you willing to let people come over?

Be the evening, early evening, I'd say not too late.

Do you need. Do you need Don and I to vet any of these people? Do you trust us? Do you want to. Do you want to send your criteria to us and have us do the vetting for you or. And send. We were 98% confident this person matches or do you want. Do you still want to know who they are ahead of time?

I.

Don, I think. I think I've seen your face. We're gonna have to do a lot more of these conversations.

It would be good to know ahead of time. I'll trust you to make the assessment. But then yeah, to know ahead of time would be maybe some. Some mix there. I don't know if that really answers the question.

I've taken a lot of time so obviously I'm keen to run this experiment. Don, you have any. I'm trying to follow the. The journey of liquidity. Obviously there's more things than at first meets the eye which is also what makes the stuff sharing economy more complicated. And even though Airbnb the value is higher, it's more of a straightforward proposition. Sort of know when you're using your home, when you're not, or if you're willing to let you know someone in your home while you're there, while you're not there. I feel like some of those. And maybe there's a lot. The dynamism where there's multiple elements in that case, too. Maybe I'm. Maybe I'm projecting a little bit, but there's clearly a lot of kind of things we need to think through in the journey of one. One liquidity transaction. Don, are there any others that we need to make this actually happen?

Well, I think I found you a nice Taylor acoustic guitar in Leeds. It's owned by Benjamin. And this is what it looks like.

We're cheating.

All right.

Okay.

Look at that. And.

I think. I don't know how active they are, but I. Have you heard of a company called Fat Llama? Have they reached Leeds?

No, I don't think I've heard of them.

All right, so this is not like the kind of borrowing that you were.