Best of Season 2: Loving Yourself AfterMeth with Brian Spitulik

The whole point of coming to therapy is to get to know yourself. And in getting to know yourself, you're going to start to love yourself. And if you love yourself, you're going to be fully in reality with the facts of your life, with who you are in the world, not living in your stories, not living in your reactions to your stories. So, I mean, I—

The Aftermath Podcast is an outreach tool to help men who have sex with men break free from the addictive patterns associated with chemsex, otherwise known as crystal meth or Tina. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth user, now recovery coach. Here you will find a repository of tools and resources intended to eradicate the epidemic that is plaguing our MSM population. Please note that the views expressed on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice. Also, we will be talking about drugs and sex, so if you feel triggered to use, Stop listening and contact your local emergency system and/or your support network. Let's go. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg. So happy you are here. Today we have a celebrity in the studio, Brian Spitalnik.

You got it.

Yay. I'm the worst person to pronounce names. I don't know if it's my, my country accent or what. I don't know.

But Dallas, you can get rid of that story because you did it perfectly.

So, ah, yay. Thank you.

Yeah. Yeah. You're welcome.

Yeah. I'm identifying with that, aren't I? Uh, you're already therapizing me. We just got started here. I love it. Um, so Brian, I get questions so often from my clients of, Have you seen that Brian guy on TikTok? Or have you seen that Brian guy on Instagram? If you're not following Brian, we're going to put his information, of course, in the show notes. But 63,500 people are following you on Instagram right now. So chances are, if you're listening to this, you probably follow Brian. Brian is doing big work, good work, Very bright, very handsome, just everything you want in an Instagram influencer, social media influencer. Um, and we're just, I'm just really happy that you, that you answered my DM and that you're, you're here. So can you tell us, can you tell us about yourself?

I can, I can. And I'm really glad to be here with you. I think what you're doing here is incredibly important. I'm a therapist. I'm a psychotherapist first and foremost. Um, and a lot of times when, um, and I work primarily with gay men, um, I do have clients who are not gay men. Um, and when my TikTok has popped up on their algorithm, they, um, I have a straight guy who told me he's my DEI client because he's like the one straight guy. Um, so I, I do work with a, a wide population, but I went into the field in order to work with gay men because, as you know, it's needed. Like, um, these, these boys, these men, these boys becoming men really need help, and it's pretty urgent.

Mm-hmm.

So, um, I work in a, in a psychodynamic framework, meaning like it comes, all comes from Freud. We do a lot of talking, but I also work within a systems perspective. I use, um, systems-centered therapy. I use internal family systems, and that's all about looking at the context, um, in which you were raised, the context in which you live now, and it's about looking internally at the different parts of you that are, uh, you know, if you're, if you're a meth user, that, that part of you that reaches for the drug, it's trying to do something for you. You know, if you have, if you're somebody who likes to stay at home and that kind of proclivity to stay at home becomes so pronounced that you can't leave the house, that part of you that wants to stay home, that's doing something for you. It has the best intentions. The part of you that reaches for the meth also has the best intentions for you. So a lot of the work we do is looking at these different parts, um, really trying to get to know them, um, really trying to have compassion for them. And eventually, um, having compassion and understanding of all those parts of that kind of constellation of parts can lead to deeper understanding of yourself. So that's what I do.

Love, love, love, love that.

Yeah.

Because there's, there's a common comment that I hear, and that's that I'm, I'm taming the beast, right? Or I am waging war on the, my addiction, the part that wants to use meth. And I went live this morning and even had a question. This guy was saying, when is the war over between me and this, this demon of mine?

Mm-hmm.

that wants to use meth and not very, not as articulate as you, but I try to say, look, all parts of you, even the part that wants to use meth is there for your best interest.

Yeah.

Can you, how do you explain that to someone who's listening right now?

Yeah, it's, uh, oh boy, it's hard. And it's important for me to say right up front, um, you know, when I've had, uh, When I've had any clients come to me who are right in the middle of active addiction, I will refer them out to somebody who really specializes in working with active addiction because it is a beast at that moment. It's a beast with the best intentions, but you need somebody who really specializes in that work. And so I've had to turn away people, not because I don't want to, but because I know that there's somebody better out there for them. Um, so with all of that said, that's just kind of my disclaimer, kind of my caveat. Um, it is, it's hard to look at something that, you know, is harming you and say, this has the best of intentions for me.

Mm-hmm.

Because, you know, in your sober state of mind, how much is fucking up your life? You know, you know, and you know, it's pulling you into things that you don't wanna do. And so how, how can you believe that it's for your best, has your best intentions in mind? So what, where we begin is really looking at where in the body you feel that pull. You know, I like to start somatically. Um, a lot of people do with this work. Um, and some guys will say, I don't feel anything. I don't know what you're talking about. Um, and that's totally valid too. They're not used to feeling in their body. A lot of people will just say it's a thought. So we'll start there. Okay, so how do you experience that thought? What does that thought sound like? Does it sound like your voice? Does it sound like the voice of a teacher or of your mother? Does it sound like, um, I have a client who one of his parts sounds like an alien from Alien, you know, from the movie.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and that's, that's, that's a scary sound. Um, and he eventually has gotten to know that alien and he's gotten to see why that alien is coming forward. And it's just, it's a very slow unpeeling process. It does not happen all at once, but maybe, maybe, and we'll use the alien example. Say the alien comes forward and you notice it's coming forward. If I'm sitting with you and you're my client and you are feeling that urge to use, And I would ask you, okay, so what, what is that like right now? And you might say, it's just a thought in my head. It's just a thought. Like, wouldn't it be nice? Wouldn't it be nice to not feel what I'm feeling right now? Great. So can you pay attention to that part? What does that part want for you? What is it? What is it trying to do? What's its job here? What's its function?

Hmm.

And you might say, oh, well, Yeah. I just said it's, it's, it's helping me not feel what I'm feeling right now, which is I'm really angry. I'm really angry that you're making me do this work and that I'm sitting here with you. I don't wanna fucking do this work.

Hmm.

So in that way, you start to kind of get to know, okay, there was a part of you that got you in this room, brought you here to therapy. Part of you wants to be here. Part of you wants to really not be here. Part of you really wants to say, fuck you, I'm getting outta here and I'm going to use whatever I wanna use. So that's the beginning of it. That's just beginning to look at the things that pull you. What's it trying to do? It's trying to put out that uncomfortable feeling. So that, that would be an instance in which you call that part a firefighter. The fire is the anger. Doesn't feel safe to feel angry. So I'm gonna reach for a firefighter to put it out. And everybody has firefighters, not just addicts. Really common firefighters are You know, the part that reaches for alcohol, the part that reaches for drugs, but it could be also the part that reaches for work, you know, overworks. It could be the part that reaches for placating, you know, whatever it is that you need, I'll do just to put out this feeling of fear. So starting to look at the part that reaches for a drug as a firefighter.

Mm-hmm.

Knowing that a fire is something that everybody agrees is not something that you want, it starts to give you a sense that, okay, this part does actually want to help me. It's trying to help my whole system. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. Just to review. So if, if I am trying to get to know my parts, because there's so many questions about Why am I doing this? Why do I keep doing this? And, and why am I the way that I am?

Right.

And we try to look, you try to look to childhood, you know, and try to, what did my mommy and daddy do to me? And, and all that kind of things. Right.

Mm-hmm.

And, and all that's good, but in coaching, I know for me, we have to work with what is present right now. I'm not a therapist, so I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna Use Freud.

Yeah. Right.

You have mommy issues or daddy issues, right? Um, but this helps, I think, really in the moment, helps someone. I mean, it's mindfulness too, right? Yes. In, in terms of searching your body. So you want to see, you want to find out where it is in your body. You feel it. It sounds like, which gives you some practice in connecting with your body. And so much, so many of us who have used meth are disconnected.

That's right.

From the body.

Yeah, it is. It is mindfulness. It's a really important thing that you're pointing out. Um, I start each of my therapy sessions with— I lead the client through like a really short mindfulness exercise, really just like scanning the body, imagining you can make space in your body, because that is what you're there to do, is just to notice, just to notice how you're feeling, to put words to how you're feeling. Um, when you start getting into Oh, I— the first time I felt this way was when I was 5, when my mom took away my Barbie doll, you know. Well, okay, it's— that's not Freud. That's just kind of a looking back at the facts.

Sure.

Um, and the thing that a lot of guys, um, well, a lot of people— a lot of people don't want to blame their parents, you know, which I think is right, you know. We're big boys now. Like, there's only so long you can blame your parents. And I'm really, but a really important thing to look at is, you know, when you're 5 and someone yells at you, it is not the same as being yelled at when you're a 45-year-old man. When you're 5, it's your whole world. Everything is big. Everything is scary. And this huge figure that you rely on for shelter and for food and for love and for comfort and for a sense of belonging and safety in the world. is taking away something that you wanna play with or telling you no in a way that feels like you're bad. It just has outsized impact. Mm-hmm. Much more so than if you were an adult in the same situation. So it's never about, for me, I mean, I've had clients be like, I'm so sick of talking about my mother. And I totally get it. I totally get it. I don't wanna talk about your mom anymore either. But the fact is, she was your primary caregiver at a time when That was the only person in your life when things in your brain were forming. The fact is a lot of it goes back to how you were raised, and no parents are perfect, even the really great ones. They're not perfect.

Right, right.

Um, wait, wait, you, you said something that I wanted to comment on. Oh, mindfulness. So, so we're starting to notice like that, that is, that is absolutely step one in therapy. You know, if you, um, you know, something that you and I were talking about earlier is Say you're, you're no longer using, you're really in sobriety, um, and, um, maybe you're in a 12-step program, maybe you're doing whatever it is that's really gotten you on a clear path to sobriety, and you're thinking, okay, now I'm sober, I think I want to try therapy. This is the first step of therapy, noticing what you're feeling when you're feeling it.

Mm-hmm.

Um, noticing, and this is just as important, Notice that when you're telling yourself a story and having feelings about the story, rather than having feelings about the facts, like fact. So say somebody came in who was sober, but had been using meth for 12 years. Fact, that person used meth for 12 years. How do you feel about that fact? It's something that I would ask them. Now they would, they might start to say, I feel like I wasted my life. I feel like I wasted this 12 years and I'll never get it back. That is not a feeling.

Hmm.

That is a story you're telling yourself. The story of I wasted my life.

Hmm.

So how do you feel? I do this really obnoxious thing and it is obnoxious and, um, I'm really surprised nobody's punched me yet. But so if they start to do this, I'll say, okay, you have 3 options about how you feel about the fact that you used meth for 12 years. Are you happy about it, sad about it, or mad about it? This is so oversimplified and kind of preposterous to say that you can only have 3 feelings in the world. It's ridiculous. We have such a huge range.

Mm-hmm.

But narrowing it, narrowing it down that way, I, I think of it as like painting in primary colors, red, yellow, blue, happy, sad, mad. It simplifies the whole palette and you can look at it a little bit more clearly. So everything else is a shade of happy, mad, sad, you know, and there's a million ways to talk about it. But if you're able to say, I used meth for 12 years and I'm really angry about it. I used meth for 12 years and I'm also really sad about it. Okay. Then the next step is great. Where does sad live in your body right now? Well, I feel a sinking in my stomach. Okay. So let's spend some time. Can we just sit with that sinking feeling just for a minute?

Hmm.

And then we'll get to know what that feeling is. We'll get to know There's a part there holding that sadness for you. We'll just start to get to know that part. And then that way, you know, this is like a really nice little inroad into yourself. The whole point of coming to therapy is to get to know yourself. And in getting to know yourself, you're going to start to love yourself.

Hmm.

And if you love yourself, you're gonna be fully in reality with the facts of your life. With who you are in the world, not living in your stories, not living in your reactions to your stories. So, I mean, I do say this a lot and I, because I do believe it's true. The reasons, the goals of therapy are one, to come into reality, which means coming out of your stories, and 2, to love yourself. And in my definition, because a lot of people really bristle at the idea of trying to love themselves. It's just another way of saying truly knowing yourself. When you truly know somebody, you automatically have compassion for them because you know, because you know who they are, you know what they're about. Even if they're acting horribly out in the world, you can't help but have compassion once you really know them and really see them. So it's the same thing for yourself. Once you really know yourself, once you really see yourself. You're filled with compassion for all, all the different parts of you. What are you thinking about what I'm saying here?

Me?

Yes, you.

I'm like, I'm eating it up here.

Okay. Yeah.

I'm eating it up here. Um, no, I was just thinking that I was, so I want to go back to a bunch of things that you said, but let's, but the last thing you were saying about knowing yourself, like when someone in your life that you know, Like, for instance, I'll use an example of my child, right? If he acts out of— my son acts out of character or snaps at me or something like that, I know who he is, right? And I know that's not his— that's not who he is, right? So it's the same thing as if you know parts of yourself.

Exactly.

Right?

Absolutely. Absolutely. So it's what— why it's— why it's so helpful. So how old's your son?

He's 21.

Oh shit. Okay. So he's a, he's a grown man.

Okay.

Yeah. So you really know him. He's been around for a long time. Yeah. And so you also, you know that there are parts of him that get angry. Yes. You know, there are parts of him that lash out. You probably know the parts of him that get sad.

Yes.

You know, the parts of him that get scared. These are all parts and you know him because, right, he's not you and he's a person that you love. So in a way, what we're really trying to do is get some distance from these parts of ourselves so that we can look at them as our children.

Mm-hmm.

One wonderful teacher I had said when she works with her parts, when she kind of feels herself kind of getting, um, any kind of overwhelm, any kind of like stimulated something, anxiety, depression, whatever it is, she'll kind of put her hand on her heart and say, okay, mommy's home. Mommy's home, you know, cuz she thinks of herself, the really center of herself as, as mommy.

Yeah.

And all these parts are like children, cuz she's also a mom. Children who need taken care of. They need, they all need different things. They all need to be shown love different ways. They all need different kind of attention. But she's the adult. She's the healthy adult who can handle it. Just like you're the healthy adult with your son saying, I know, I know where this is coming from. What is it that you need right now? You know? Mm-hmm. Um, and at 21, hopefully he's able to do some of that work for himself. Um, but, but But I've used that with clients too, you know, like daddy's home. Like, can you just be that safe, healthy, compassionate dad for yourself? It's a really powerful tool. Daddy's home. And clients laugh because daddy, you know, they want a daddy themselves, but maybe you can be your own daddy too. Yeah.

I'm a good boy. I can hear that.

Yeah.

You're a good boy.

Exactly.

Um, yeah, because I also think about, uh, you know, you talked about happy, sad, and mad as kind of the, the basic feelings. And I always kind of say it, that everything either comes down to fear or love too, right? And, um, if you fear parts of yourself, whatever you are afraid of, you push away.

Mm-hmm.

But what you love, you pull, you pull in.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Yes.

Um, and, and I feel like we, we fear what we don't know. And if you don't know the parts of yourself, then you are going to be scared of them. And you probably are scared of the part that wants to use meth as well.

Right.

And so you reject it. And the more you reject it, the more the, the, the, the, I think the more you reject that part, the, the less chance you're going to have to to recover because you're never going to really accept it and love yourself fully and integrate and be whole.

Integrate.

Is that right?

That's exactly right. Exactly right. One of the things I love so much about, um, IFS, about this model, is that it really, it's really acknowledged explicitly that it does not work to try to shut up any of these parts. It does not work to try to shove them aside, um, for all the reasons that you're saying. They're, they're not Even the parts that we really wish would go away, they're not going away. You know, the best we can hope, and is, is a really good hope, is that you integrate it in a way you integrate that part. Because the part that's reaching for meth, um, I, I don't know what it wants. You know, we would, we would figure that out together. But say it just like wants to feel good. It just doesn't wanna feel bad anymore.

Hmm.

So eventually down the road when the work is really being fleshed out, we're not trying to like execute and, you know, do away with that part. We're not trying to shoot it on the field. We're trying to bring it in and give it a different job. You know, this meth part can be in charge of planning the vacation.

Mm-hmm.

You know, like that part that's like so used to like, you know, getting the drug and getting the men and getting the thing, you know? Like, that's a planner, you know, that's a really good planner planning for you to feel good. So maybe he can be the one in charge of planning the trip to Italy. You know, it really, I mean, it kind of is that kind of, it lives in that imaginal realm of let's give, 'cause it's doing a job already. It's doing a job that other parts of us are not so thrilled with. So instead of trying to kill it off, let's give it a new job and see how it functions then.

Yeah.

Because God knows it's got its strengths, you know, and like, let's, let's let it play to its strengths.

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's so good. It's so good. And if you're listening, I would imagine, and, and I've been there, it's so exhausting to have all of these parts going in all of these directions, doing all these different things, and you have no idea that it's happening.

Right.

Right. And so you, you spend your day, your, your life's unpredictable. You don't know why you feel the way you do. You, you know, it's, it's exhausting to be in that state.

And a lot of people really, um, when I start to work with them around this model, they feel like I'm telling them that they're schizophrenic or that they have, uh, multiple personalities or, um, dissociative identity disorder. Um, and what's interesting is dissociative identity disorder, which is what they used to call multiple personality disorders, uh, disorder, um, is kind of the extreme version of what we're talking about when we look at everybody having multiple parts.

Mm-hmm.

It's like when you are dissociating into different identities, they're so extreme. They've been pushed by your life circumstance usually, um, a mix of genetics and your life circumstance, probably into such extreme roles that they're operating in ways that are completely pulling you out of reality.

Yeah.

But they're doing the same job as the part of you that wants, um, to eat a tub of ice cream. You know, the— eat it, the one— okay, you wanna eat a tub of ice cream, you know, and it feels good. Okay, do that once. But it's, it's the exact same thing. It's extreme, that part. The part that wants to eat a tub of ice cream is eventually killing you because now you're diabetic and now you're so obese you can't leave the house. I mean, it's extreme. So, so the idea with this model is that everybody has multiple personalities and each part has an entire system unto itself. It's part of our system. That system has a system and they're all functioning in the way that they know how. Um, and so what the work is to try to get them to work together instead of against each other, which is what you see so much, and which is why it becomes exhausting. Not being aware of what's pulling you, not being, um, in control, not, not being the dad who has a handle on these wild, outlandish, um, acting out kids. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I would think for those of us who have been in active meth use, so these parts of course existed before we started. When we got into meth use, if you think of it as your kids, I even say this with inner child work is that when you're, when you're on meth, you, you silence everyone.

Uh huh.

Right. Right. So some, to some of us, it's our break. Right. It's, it's that we get the one-track mind and we get to silence everybody for a moment, but I think it exasperates the parts too. Like they go into some type of, I don't know what, what happens when you come out of that. Right. You know, they're still going to be there. So, like you said, as a, so from, I always see my job as a coach is to try to get these guys away from the substance long enough.

Mm-hmm.

So that I can shove, shove them to you, which I've already sent you a referral, by the way.

Yeah, I got it. Uh, yeah.

And into that, uh, you know, they need, now, now you can be therapized because, okay, once meth is gone, that doesn't change anything about who you were beforehand. It doesn't fix you.

Mm-hmm.

If anything, right? If anything, you need therapy more than ever now. Now you can be therapized and you have all these parts, all these kids around you who need now attention. They're not silenced anymore.

Right. And it's when you can actually start to do the work is when you're no longer in a cycle of drug use or alcohol abuse or whatever it is. It's really hard to work with somebody, even somebody who's binge drinking every weekend, you know, they're still in a cycle of recovery.

Every week. Yeah.

Um, it's really hard to work with that person because you don't know if they have a mood disorder or if they're just hungover, you know, and the hangover is exacerbating what already is. Like you're talking about these parts that are already there, the part that would anyway be dragging you down, the part that would regardless be kind of making you depressed. Well, it's just got, you know, 3 more tons on it. Because of the substance that you were using. So it's not that I, it's not that all my clients are sober. I mean, far from it. But you do know when like you're working with somebody who their drug of choice is getting in the way of them being able to make any progress. That's it. You see that all the time. So it is the case that, you know, I, it's really interesting what you say about the going into meth, you know, in that period that you're using, it's the break that you get. Because what a compassionate way to look at that person. That person is so desperate for a break from all the noise and all the pain and all the clutter, whatever it is that they feel, that they're going to this extreme. And oh my God, what an amazing feeling to have a break from that. So of course, of course they go back to it. Of course they reach for it again. Maybe it's the only time in their life they've ever felt peace.

Exactly.

So how do you start to find that peace without the drug? That is a journey. That is a long journey. And, you know, to what this kind of dovetails into is I often, for people who are depressed or people who have extreme anxiety, I think medication, antidepressants, anti-anxiety medications of all kind, are really helpful if you're also in therapy.

Yeah.

What we see a lot is that people will get antidepressants or anti-anxiety medication from their primary care physician without ever going to therapy. And in a way, not nearly as harmful to your physiology, but in a way that is similar to just doing meth to silence everything. I mean, it's an extreme thing to say, But you're not, you're, cuz you're kind of getting a break. You're kind of getting a break from that depression by taking the pill. But all those parts are still there and at war with each other or pulling in opposite directions. So I really am a big proponent always of like, yes, if medication is gonna help, let's get you that medication and let's get you in therapy simultaneously because one without the other, it's, it's not gonna do you any good.

Wow.

I don't think—

thank you. Thank you for saying that. That needed to be said.

Yeah.

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I mean, meth is the shortcut. It is the shortcut. Shortcut to bypass your sexual insecurities, to bypass your physical insecurities, to bypass connection, meeting people. You know, it is— it's the shortcut. And it's the shortcut to silencing these voices. But I keep— now I'm thinking about the kids The, the kids that you keep mentioning. So I feel like when you take meth, you shove all the, all your kids in the closet, right? And you know, and lock 'em in a closet. Uh-huh. And the more they're, the more they're in there, the more they're like, I need out. I need out. So when you come, you know, and when you come down, they all come out.

They all come flying out and you are, and you are physiologically depleted, you know?

Yeah.

You, you are, you are, no matter what, you are physically depleted. And you have fewer resources. Same thing coming home from work tired. You have fewer resources to deal with your goddamn kids at the end of the day than you did when you were waking them up and they were sweet and silent.

Yeah.

You're tired. You're tired. And like, what do you do when you're tired? You start to snap or you start to retreat or whatever it is that is your usual method of coping.

Well, you go back to meth.

Right.

Or you go back to meth. That's the addiction.

Right, right, right. And so, so that cycle is so real, you know, and it's, um, I, I also think one of the things I like so much about the model of internal family systems is it's never pathologizing, you know, notice how I'm talking about, um, the part that reaches for meth. It's not a disease, you know, in this model. I think that disease model, like in 12-step programs, really works for a lot of people. So no disparaging of that. But in this model I'm talking about, it's a different way of looking at it as like, you're not broken, you're not diseased.

Right.

This isn't something that you inherited. This is a part of you that really is trying to help and somewhere along the way got pushed to an extreme that is no longer working. And so in that way, you get to look at it as like, oh, I'm not broken. There's nothing wrong with me.

Yes.

There's just this part of me that really needs some love. And what, what does that change? You know, that, that changes how you think about where that part goes. It doesn't have to be shoved out of the way every time.

Yeah.

You know, every time you— I don't, I'm not actually as clear. You can tell me, like the cycle of meth use, is it, if it's, um, similar to somebody who's like binge drinking and like blacking out, you know, the next day they're gonna be like, I'm never drinking again.

Mm-hmm.

You know, um, and then by the weekend they're doing it again. Is it similar for, for meth use? Have you found? Yes.

So it, you vary, you know, it all varies, but there's a lot of weekend warriors where, you know, they will use all weekend. Monday morning they're, you know, I, I can't ever do this again.

Right.

Right. And then by Thursday night they're back on the, on Grindr looking for the next, right. You know, they forget already.

Right, so in your view, is, are the hookup apps and sniffies and, you know, all of it, are they exacerbating the issue in the gay community?

No question. Yeah, zero question on that. That's one of the first things you do if you come in my program is you put a block on your phone so that you cannot access Grindr and sniffies. Because it's too, it, you can, especially where you are in New York City, Right. I mean, you can, you can get on the phone on Grindr and have a meth hookup in 10 minutes.

Yeah. Right.

You can have it delivered to your door in 15 minutes.

Right, right.

It is the digital drug dealer. Yeah. It is the digital drug dealer. Uh, Sniffies is even worse. You know, Sniffies is like, okay, let's, let's pervert Grindr. Or, or let's make it easier to use meth.

Right, right. Yeah. It's so, you know, because So hookup apps and hookup culture did not, as you know, start with Grindr, um, any more than, you know, isolation and loneliness started with social media. Um, these things have just been exacerbated, um, by the technology and by the speed of everything. So yes, there was already a loneliness epidemic in the gay community, you know, going back— Well, Maybe for always, you know, because if you look at, um, I just read a wonderful book which everybody should read called Out of the Shadows.

Okay.

And it's by a psychologist who's been around forever, um, named Walt Odets. O-D-E-T-S.

Okay.

Uh, he's, he's worked out of San Francisco. He was a therapist all throughout the AIDS epidemic, um, the '80s through today. And he talks about, you know, the kind of post-Stonewall sexual liberation, gay liberation, and the freedom that came with that. You know, not just sexual freedom, but emotional freedom all of a sudden. And what's another word to say it? Cultural freedom. You know, getting to live the way that we wanted to live. Without having to kind of couch it in a heteronormative frame, without having to say, okay, I'm acceptable because I'm gonna live this nice white picket fence life. There was just this explosion of authenticity, freedom. And then AIDS came along and shut it all down. And not only did it, you know, was it a mass murderer, it also kind of murdered that liberation, murdered the ability to be authentic because of how Hmm. Because of how stigmatized it became to be gay all over again.

Yeah.

So, so, so, so there, right in that, right in that pocket of, of, of the epidemic and coming out of it, even getting to the drug cocktails that would be life-saving, you know, the stigma still remained. And people and men remained isolated, kind of afraid of themselves, afraid of their sexuality, truly traumatized. So for my age cohort, you know, I was born in '82. And so I grew up only knowing gay as meaning death.

Yeah.

You know, that's what you saw on TV. That's what like the whispers were. I grew up in a very liberal household outside of DC. And still that was the kind of, that's what we knew, you know? And that in itself, Is a trauma because, uh, what the symptoms of— the symptoms that come out of having that understanding that you are a part of what is diseased and dying are that you isolate, that you dissociate, that you disconnect, that you shut down, that you, um, that you, that you become, uh, your own little island.

Yeah.

And then loneliness and then isolation. So this goes way, way back. Um, it's like in our DNA as gay men. And so now, now it's even worse. Now it's worse because of, uh, technology.

Mm-hmm.

And so the question becomes for everybody, and, and truly this is why I started making reels on Instagram instead of just sitting quietly like one-on-one with with my clients.

Mm-hmm.

I started doing it because everybody was saying the same thing. All the men I were— was sitting across from were saying, I'm the only gay man who wants connection. I'm the only gay man looking for something real. I'm the only gay man not obsessed with my body and drugs and partying and sex.

Mm-hmm.

I'm the only one who, who feels this way. And this is a self-selecting group because they were all coming to me for therapy.

Yeah.

Um, so like they were at a certain place. But they all feel so alone. And so when I started putting these reels out, uh, it was true that even more people who weren't coming to therapy were also feeling all, all this way. So I say all this to say, like, there is, we're in the middle of a really, really serious epidemic.

Yes.

And it's, it's loneliness, it's isolation. And, um, and we're hurting ourselves, you know, we're really hurting ourselves. Mm-hmm.

Well, thank you for that. And, you know, the, the, the crystal meth epidemic among men who have sex with men is being called the next AIDS crisis.

Hmm.

It's having a pull on the healthcare. It's as far as a healthcare crisis.

Hmm.

Um, it's the, there's so much, it's, it's, it's similar to in terms of nobody's talking about it.

Mm-hmm.

Nobody wants to admit they're using.

Mm-hmm.

There's a heavy stigma around using crystal meth.

Mm-hmm.

And it's hard. Chemsex is not spoken about, right, in our, in our gay community or on the news. It's just, it's swept under the rug. And this is a global epidemic. It's anywhere you are in the, in the world because of Grindr has infiltrated the, the, the internet waves and it has brought the availability and connection of, of crystal meth anywhere.

Right.

You know, to countries where you could die for being gay, much less using drugs.

Right, right, right.

Um, and so it is being— That's an incredible thing.

I, I hadn't heard of it, um, compared to AIDS in that way. And it's a really interesting thing. Um, you know, there's a lot of— there, there was, I think less so now, there was a lot of blame from my generation, you know, around my generation aimed at the older generation of kind of like, why didn't you just stop having sex? You know, why did you allow AIDS to spread? You know, a lot of blame.

Yeah.

Um, really misplaced blame. Um, but I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what we're seeing is a lot of this, uh, a lot of very similar blame being put on people in the chemsex community being like, why are you spreading this Stigma.

Yes.

Why are you, well, and why are you spreading, um, disease?

Yeah.

Um, you know, why, why, why, why? And like, and, and pointing the finger where like it didn't work with AIDS and it's not gonna like that. The blaming tactic is not gonna work with meth either.

That's right. Well, there's similarities. Um, I had Mark King on the podcast. He's a, um, a writer for Pause magazine.

Yeah.

I mean, he's written lots of essays, but anyway. He was talking about, he lived through the AIDS epidemic, and when someone would die from AIDS, it wasn't in the obituary and nobody said it was from AIDS. They would just say he passed away of natural causes, right? The same thing happens when I see guys overdose from crystal meth, especially if they're someone known in the gay community. You don't say they die from crystal meth. They die from natural causes.

Right. Right.

Because you don't want to, and it's like the community in itself doesn't want to be known as these sex fiends. You know, they don't want, they don't want a dark blemish against our record as gay men again.

Right. Again. That's right.

But it's so sexual. These men are having sex with 15, 20 more men on a weekend, right? HIV levels are the highest among men who have sex with men who use crystal meth, have the highest level of HIV because it's all unprotected, irrational, like, you know, hypersexual, risky sexual activity too when you're on crystal meth.

Mm-hmm.

The thing about it is for that, that I say, this is just coming from me, is that the biggest difference is these, so many men aren't physically dying from meth, they're, they're mentally dying.

Right.

The psychosis is now, it's, it's more, it's more prevalent than ever and it's permanent now. Permanent psychosis. It changes the structure of the brain. You know, when you're talking to someone who's been using it for a while, who they are disappears. You know, I, I had a friend who slowly, I watched the light dim from his eyes. He changed completely. He was not the same person. So it's like meth is taking the lives of our brothers, but in a very peculiar, almost worse way.

This is so interesting because, you know, I cite as the reason that I wanted to become a therapist, the reason was that I saw the men in my community, which at that time was the theater community, the Broadway community, Those are the gay men in my, in my world. I saw them losing themselves, um, either to suicide far too often, but also to drugs in the way that you're saying.

Mm-hmm.

They become lost, you know? Um, and it's really, uh, it's really apparent in that world because so many of these men have these outsized talents, you know, that are visible.

Mm-hmm.

And just, um, kind of awe-inspiring. And you see the talent. start to fade and you see it start to recede just like that light that you're talking about. And so, you know, to me, I thought, okay, well, I'm gonna become a therapist so I can sit and like, at least like this one man that I'm sitting with will not get lost. I mean, I hope.

Mm-hmm.

And, but I'm curious to know in your mind what the larger pill is, you know, for, for the AIDS epidemic. Like we finally got science. You know, we finally got medicine that would make HIV no longer a death sentence. Um, and now we have PrEP. And so it's, you know, uh, even though it's not a perfect fix, as you're saying, that was kind of how we got to the other side of AIDS. What— how do you think we're getting to the other side of meth?

Well, I think first and foremost, we have to talk about it openly, you know, and we have to, in our communities, stop turning against ourselves. Like, I will, I will post something online on, on my social media about the stigma against guys who use crystal meth. I get an onslaught of, of guys, gay guys saying, no, there needs to be stigma.

Yeah.

No, we want stigma against what they're doing. Right? They, they are, they're, they're this, they're dirty tweakers. They're sex fiends. They're, they're nasty. And, you know, all this kind of stuff. And so first of all, we have to be able to be able to talk about openly. So many of these guys who go to 12 steps that I help, they go to AA because they don't even want to be seen with Crystal Meth Anonymous. They don't want to be open about the fact that they use meth because there's such a strong stigma against it. And so first and foremost is we have to have open dialogue and acceptance in our own Right. Community first.

Yes, absolutely.

And it's, it's, to me, it's a mental illness problem, right? It's, you know, we have, we're avoiding connection, we're avoiding internalized homophobia. We're, I mean, we're avoiding loneliness.

Sorry.

We're avoiding internalized homophobia. We don't feel comfortable in our skin. We still are scared that right now we're, you know, our rights are at at risk. You know, it's just like, there's so many things we're running from as gay men. And we don't have the skills that you're talking about today in this parts work. You know, we just don't have the skills to handle our emotions.

Right.

And we're running from something, whatever that, whatever that part doesn't want you to, that fire that you're talking about, whether it be loneliness, whether it be rejection, Abandonment, whatever it is that is burning in us, we are running from it.

Yeah.

It's hot and we're running and we don't have the skills, the emotional regulation skills to deal with it. So the quickest and easiest way is meth. Plus we get the relief, plus we get to be the sexual man we've always wanted to be and take the risk we've always wanted to have. You know, we get to do what we saw in the porns, you know, that in the pornography that we've seen all of our life, we get to do that or we think we do.

Right.

Right. And, and so I also think it's a mental illness crisis as well. And so what you're doing is so important. What, what you're doing is the antidote here to do it.

I hope so. Did I tell you last time we spoke, did I tell you about this, this mental health app that I'm creating? Did I tell you this?

No, no.

So I'm creating this app, it's called Gayfully, which I made because it makes me, it makes me smile. I love that. Yeah, it's a mental health app for gay men. Um, I'm gonna put it out in September. Um, so, so far what it is, is, um, I tried it out over the summer and I had 20 guys take a course with me, like a 6-week course, um, about connection. So connecting to yourself and connecting to others. And part of it was like group work, you know, like really getting together once a week to hear each other and reflect each other and join each other. But the other parts of the app are about coming together around real topics about, you know, there's like a chat function that is not for dick pics, you know, it's like a chat function that's not for hookups. It's a, I mean, I know my boys and I know that like they'll, Darn. Dick pics will be sent, but yeah, it's for cultivating conversations about, um, you know, here's what I'm actually going through and here's, here's, here's how I want to connect and can we connect in this space. And so there's, you know, there's meditations and there's like different ways to self-regulate and there's, there's, uh, ways to work on with your parts. Um, but more than anything, it's a way for men to come together And it's, you know, it's an app, so it's not ideal. Um, I hope at some point there'll be like a hybrid version where we'll be able to come together in a physical space and have that safety with each other in person, cuz that's, that's the next step. But it's an app where my hope is that people will come together and, um, join around their similarities rather than dividing around their differences.

Mm-hmm.

Because it's, it's the most common thing for any marginalized group. To, um, it's horizontal oppression, you know. It's, it's, you know, like, these people look down on me, um, and stigmatize me, so I'm gonna do the same thing to you. Makes me feel much better. Um, and if, if we can kind of get over that— it's, it's a hard thing to get over, it's kind of really wired into us— but if we can move past that, we might be a much healthier— well, we might be a community. Which right now it's hard to say that if we're a community or not.

Right. Yeah. I mean, I use that term lightly just, just so you know what I'm talking about, but I don't mean it in the, in the true sense.

Right. I know usually we kind of use, I use community as a stand-in for population, population of gay men, you know? Um, what, what would it mean to be a community? You know, it's, it's like, it's almost this idyllic, um, fantasy of what it would look like. But wouldn't it be nice if that was no longer a fantasy? You know, we still have to create what that's going to be outside of bars or inside of bars. I mean, both. Yeah. Right. I went to Market Days in Chicago this week. I had never been. Do you know what this is?

Yes.

They like shut down the street, the big, the Boystown, and like, it's a big festival. And like, you know, there are like circuit parties happening every night outside. But like on that street, it is just a big party and it's too many people for me. I do not thrive in that environment. But parts of it were really lovely. Um, I was with a group of friends, um, and, you know, just dancing to stupid gay pop music, um, in a hot room, um, with other men dancing to the stupid pop music. Like there was something communal about that. There was something that like felt like this space is ours.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

And it's a very simple, you know, you hear a lot of gay men from previous generations saying like, what about Proust? You know, like, why did we stop talking about Proust? Why do we stop talking about James Baldwin? You know, like what happened to like gay culture as connoisseurs of culture and as connoisseurs of like great art and literature? And yeah, to a degree that's gone away and been replaced by gym culture and pop and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But okay, but this is where we're working from right now. So maybe just kind of dancing together without drugs, without sex. Maybe that's a good place to start, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would, that's, I, I'd love that. I, I, I would really love that. I mean, it's, it, we feel pressure to have, it's, if you don't have sex, you're not part of it. It's gay, you know, you're not, you're part of the culture, right? You know, it's not fun. That's the goal, right? That is the goal, right?

Right.

To go home with somebody.

And it's, it's a way, it's a, it's a, there's a kind of, I think, redefining of what it means to be gay that could be really helpful. And I don't know what that is yet. Um, I, I said online a while ago, you know, somebody was asking why, um, why, why there's so much focus on sex in the gay community. And my answer to that was, the reason is because we're a community where our commonality is that we like to have sex with each other. You know, that, that is what makes us— that is like our one similarity, uh, where like everything else can be completely different. And the more I've thought about that, the more I don't agree with what I said.

Mm-hmm.

Because it's not just that we we like to have— we're men who like to have sex with men. It's also that we have this entire inborn sensibility that is almost impossible to explain. We have this, this usually a very interesting and almost equal balance of masculine and feminine, you know, which is different than saying male and female, but masculine and feminine qualities, energies.

Yes.

And we have a sensibility that is, um, attuned to camp for some reason. Why does every little gay boy like Judy Garland? You know, she's like this articulation of our vulnerabilities and of our sensibilities in some way. And how— why did we all watch, not Designing Women, but Designing Women and Golden Girls and think like, oh my God, something about this speaks to me.

Yeah.

It's because there's this ineffable sensibility and it doesn't have to do with who we fuck. It has to do with who we are. And this is like, for me, it's kind of a not fully baked thought, but it is something to begin to work on. You know, what, what if we're not just here to fuck each other? What if, what if there's, what if there's more? What if there's more to why we come together? Yeah.

What a, what an amazing thought. Yeah.

It's a revolution. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Great. I love that. I love it. I love it. Thank you. And I just wanna, for those listening, just wanna review real quick some things that Brian said, and that is just to get started. 'Cause for those of you that have some time away from meth and a lot of your questions are, what now? And why do I, I've quit meth, why am I not happy? You know, why didn't things, why didn't things, everything change for me? I did what I wanted to do. You know, I Quit Meth. So one of the first things he's saying is just start to notice. Notice is the big word, you know, is notice how you're feeling. Notice what it wants. Notice where it is, where it shows up, right? Is what you were saying. And, and like the, the story, what is, what is true and what is a story? You know, we, we started this podcast with my, with, with me accepting a story that I don't pronounce names right. Right. Is that, is that true? Or, you know, or is that a story? That's a story that I've adopted about myself.

And we were able to check the facts in real time.

Um, and that's right.

It's, yeah, we were. And that's so much a part of it. Can you check the facts?

Yes.

Fact, I just pronounced that name correctly.

That's right.

How do you feel about that fact?

That's right. That's right. Yeah. I mean, it, it's, can you back it up with objective facts?

Right, right.

I've wasted my life using meth. Is that an objective fact? Can you find a tangible fact to prove that?

Right. No, no. The fact is that you've been using meth for the past 12 years. That can be a verifiable fact. And then we can look at all the things that happened in those 12 years. Um, and then we can move forward from there.

That's right. That's right. And then find out, do you feel happy, sad, or mad about it? And then investigate that, right?

Yeah. Love it.

Love it. Thank you. Well, Brian, what did I miss today that you wish we would have talked about?

Hmm. Um, Well, I didn't think of this until you asked, so it's a great question. But a huge part of, and this is true in a lot of 12-step programs, but I think a huge part of happiness and contentment and fulfillment for me is it comes in the form of what is by any other word called spirituality, not religion. Um, but the feeling of being connected to something larger, um, than yourself.

Yeah.

Um, for a long time, I mean, I was raised Jewish. For a long time I was agnostic, and then I was an atheist, and then I was trying to be a Buddhist. And right now I just, uh, have dropped any kind of ideas of what it means, except that I'm very, very aware that I'm not a silo, you know, that I'm not just like kind of alone and unattached. And it is constant work to be happy and to be content. And a lot of people, most people think that they'll just get to that place. Like it's a destination, like I'll stop using meth and then I'll be happy. And the really difficult truth is, is that it's ongoing work.

Mm-hmm.

So for me, my ongoing work is to Reconnect to myself every moment of every day. Um, and that self, that thing that I call center, that, that thing that I call, you know, like the safe, supportive dad, right? That's right here. That to me is a spiritual practice, reconnecting to self and feeling like that self is kind of connected to something larger than me.

Mm-hmm.

So that's, that's, that's a whole other aspect of mental health that, um, It's skirted around because it's not scientific. Um, and, and that's okay. Um, and it can be really off-putting to a lot of people, especially gay men who were traumatized by growing up in religion that told them that they were, you know, sinful or bad. Um, so it's not something that gets talked about a lot, but I do feel like it's really important. And, um, I really encourage people to kind of make their mental health quest a spiritual journey, a spiritual quest as well.

Hmm. And yeah, so there's a, you know, with, there's a lot of guys who, they balk at the 12 steps because of this idea of higher power. Right.

Right.

Um, but there is something, I agree, there's something. And so let, I, I, I did a, um, recap of my 7 years of chemsex recovery recently.

Mm-hmm.

On the, on the podcast and, you know, the changing, the, the, the, the pivot point for me was getting in touch with something outside of myself, even though I grew up in the church too.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I grew up in the church and this was something the first time I had actually experienced this, like this space, this unconditional love me where I am, no matter what I did or what I'm going to do. You know, nothing mattered, but in that moment, who, who, who I was standing there.

How did you find that?

Well, I, so I was, uh, about a year and a half into recovery. I was out of drug court, so I could, I was able to use if I wanted. I walked up to a, a sink of dirty dishes that my kids had left, and I immediately said, this is, this is the life I had before. Uh, is this, is this what I did all the work for? This mundane, go to work, wash the dishes, go back to work.

Mm-hmm.

You know? And so I immediately wanted to use, I had a craving. And so I, 'cause I started shaking, I ran outside, I went into the woods. And this is, it sounds corny, but like the sun's shining on my face through the branches and I picked my phone up. To, I was going to find somebody, a dealer in my Facebook, uh, in my Facebook, um, friends. And I, I paused for a moment and I made a decision. I, I exercised what I think is our greatest power. What makes us like God is free will. I exercised free will and I started deleting the contacts that I had on Facebook.

Oh, wow.

And I started deleting the dealers and I deleted everyone that I could think of. And as I deleted, the pressure The pressure was lighter and lighter and lighter and, and I felt freer and freer. And then when I was done, I heard a voice. It was almost an audible voice saying, we've been waiting for you. It was like that, doing that pierced the veil for me between me and something outside of myself.

Yeah.

And that was the beginning of my spiritual my spiritual experience, my spiritual journey, but it was also the real true beginning of my recovery journey.

Yeah. That's so, that's so extraordinary. And it's also, you know, for anyone listening who can't quite feel that for themselves, you know, like who can't, who, who do feel like there's too much religion in there, too much God in there. Um, you know, it's really important to be able to say, Like that was, that was your, that was your higher self or an unconscious, what Freud would've called the unconscious. You know, what, what, um, what IFS would call the self. Um, you know, these are just different terms for the same thing. You know, these are, you can say that it's just like parts of you.

Mm-hmm.

Or you can say that it's, you know, That is energy coming from outside of you speaking through your parts. Like, it does not matter, but that's an incredible— another way of saying what you experienced was grace. You had a true moment of grace.

Sure.

And, you know, those moments, uh, the more you look for them, the more maybe they'll show up for you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that moment gave me what I thought meth was giving me, which was freedom.

Right.

Like unconditional love, like for myself, you know, because meth took all my shame away and all my insecurities away for that moment. But in that moment, that was the real, like, that's what I had been searching for all of my life. That's what I wanted to feel. And so, yeah, I do. I refer to that as my angels, or I'll say my, my, my self-actualized, my higher self, my, my, the highest expression of me. How, how can I borrow energy from him? Right. In this moment. And, and so, yeah, I, I, you call it whatever you want.

Right, exactly. You know, whatever you want. I totally agree. That's really beautiful. I think the work that you're doing here is so important. It's so, um, it's so specific, you know, um, like these, these kind of like niche, niche specificities are so, are so vital to letting people know that they're not alone. So I'm really glad that you're out here doing the good work.

Thank you.

Yeah.

And speaking of stigma, you know, I was told by many gay men and when creating this business, tweakers aren't going to pay you, you know, you're not going to be able to, you're not going to be able to coach a meth head, you know? And so it was, I was, you know, I really, I battled it for a while because I believed those, those were stories, right?

That's right.

What can, what can I objectively What can I objectively say right now? I'm, I'm making a, it's a career.

Yeah.

They're paying you.

The men, the men who need you are paying you.

And they, and they can be coached. So, and thank you for the work you're doing. And guys, if you're listening, so important to have a therapist like this talking about what he's talking about. Um, after the fact, I will be happy to put Brian's, your, all of your information into the show notes. So we can reach you. We want to follow you. Every day he has just great content coming out. And so very valuable. Can't wait for the app.

Yeah.

Yes. Can't wait for the app. Yes. That'll be so fun. I appreciate that. So, all right. Thank you so much for being here, Brian. Really appreciate your time.

Thank you, Dr. Dallas. It's been a pleasure.

All right, guys, we will see you all next week.