EP 1:15 When Family Love You to Death with Mark

If I'm on the sidewalk walking to my car and I see somebody that's hungry, I give them that. You know, I don't give food or excuse me, money to people on the streets anymore. I will take them by the hand and I will walk with them to a food cart or something and I'll buy them a meal because that's important to me. I don't want to, I don't want to continue to feed their disease. I would rather Let them eat something, um, because I went hungry for a long time, you know.

Welcome to the After Meth Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create a repository of resources for current and past addicts as well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermath. Trigger warning, this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey and you feel like you could be triggered, by discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, please do not listen to this podcast. All right, now on with the show. Hey guys, welcome to this episode of Aftermath. I am today welcoming my friend Mark, who we've known each other I don't know how long on Instagram. This is actually the first time we've come face to face, but let me introduce my friend Mark. Mark is a 55-year-old gay man. He is the youngest of 6 children. He tragically lost 2 of his siblings to addiction. Mark was born to wonderful parents who faced the challenge of alcoholism and addiction in their family for generations. Originally from Colorado, Mark grew up in Wyoming where he was a mama's boy, spoiled and enabled for many years. At least you're aware. Despite initially struggling with his sexual orientation and even studying ministry in In 1988. Hallelujah! Mark eventually came to terms with who he is. In '87, Mark's family moved to Seattle, Washington, where his journey with substance use began at a young age. From his first drink at 7 to experimenting with drugs like crystal meth, Mark found himself on a destructive path. He lived on the streets, engaged in risky behaviors, and struggled with self-esteem issues. Mark's life was marked by addiction, crime, and instability, leading to multiple stints in jail and a cycle of treatment centers. In 2018, which was my year, Mark made a pivotal decision to move to New Jersey to start fresh, but old habits followed him. Despite the challenges, he eventually found the courage to break free from addiction and toxic relationships, embracing Buddhism and And connecting with local monks provided Mark with spiritual guidance and a new perspective on life. I love that. Today, Mark is proud to say he is clean and sober, actively involved in AA, and surrounded by a strong support system of loved ones, including his family, friends, and his sweet boyfriend.

Aw.

He has found fulfillment in his career as a hairstylist and makeup artist to celebrities, and he cherishes his role As a father and grandfather, Mark's journey has been one of, and this cut me off. I was reading that. Finish that. Mark's journey has been one of heartbreak and triumph. How's that?

Yeah.

I finished my script. Yeah. Welcome to the show, Mark.

Thank you.

What a story! Wow! Are you going to drop some celebrity names? Do some name dropping today? No, no, no. Ah, um, well, we like to start with a wellness check-in on the show, so I would like to know, how you doing today?

I'm doing really well, thank you. Yeah, I actually, um, just celebrated my 1 year, um, just 3 days ago, so—

Oh wow, happy birthday!

Thank you.

That's great. Good for you.

Yeah, so, um, I, I'm doing very well. I am in a 12-step program and I am working my way through the steps. I'm at the tail end of them now. So, okay, I have a very strong connection with an entirely wonderful group of people that I choose to call my friends. Stable, sane relationship today. And I have 3 wonderful dogs and a great career. And I'm extremely happy. I'm at a place in my life right now that I never would have imagined. I've actually become one of those men that I wanted to be like, but I used to make fun of. So, yeah.

Like a normie.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, you get that.

One of those— well, I would always see guys like me, um, and I, I think because I was jealous, um, I would, I would, you know, pick them apart and, um, judge them. So now I try and flock to that crowd.

So yeah, yeah, yeah.

me to be around successful people.

Love it. Love how things change.

Yes.

Well, you know, before we went on the air per se, we were talking about how you got to New Jersey. And I thought that was— I think that's an interesting place to start. You could retell it.

You bet. So I was an active meth dealer in Seattle. And a hairdresser, but very unsuccessful at my career because of my drug use. It kept me pretty preoccupied.

Yeah.

Right. I was having a very, very bad day. I was probably going to be killed that day. I had been threatened with my life over a deal that had gone wrong. And I had less than $500 in my pocket and I just decided that I was going to hop on a plane with a stolen credit card.

Mm-hmm.

And I was going to come to the East Coast, which I had never even visited before. I had a friend that had moved out here at some point and she and I had kept in touch. So I knew I could go to her place and at least crash on her floor or something. So that's what I did. And one thing led to another and here I am.

Wow.

You know, 6 years later. I did stay in active use once I got here and I had bouts of being clean and then not being clean, being clean, then not being clean. And really it's interesting because my bottom, Was one that wasn't as painful as a lot of the ones that I had in the past. It was just that I became very lonely, and I realized that I was doing this on my own. And when I realized that it was either that lifestyle or success and a future. Or death, I had to choose the better one, and I'm so glad I did. You know, and it has not been hard anymore. I feel like it was time, and I was ready.

So wow, yeah, lovely. So I want to point out for the listeners too that you know you. You fled the situation, right? You left the situation, right? Yeah, it was a stolen credit card. But, you know, we all did that.

By the way, what I actually— I actually paid for that. I paid it back.

Oh, nice.

Good for you.

Yes. Yeah, good for you. Yeah. I mean, you flee the environment. And sometimes we think we can run from our problems. But like you said, they kind of Kind of followed you. Yes, using.

I don't regret it. I don't. But you know, I needed to get away from a very enabling family in order to grow.

So interesting.

Yeah, that was a really big part of my story. You know, my mother is so amazing, and she's one of my best friends. However. You know, she told me at one point in time when I was, I think, in my 3rd or 4th treatment center, she said, I have to start learning to let go because I'm loving you to death. And—

Oh my God.

I understood that. We had a very, very dysfunctional, very sick relationship as far as enabling went. But she is my biggest cheerleader in recovery. So it's like, you know, she never gave up on me.

Wow. Can you share some ways that she was enabling you? What are some signs that our relationship with our family is unhealthy?

So I would call my mother and this was back before there were cell phones and I would call her from a payphone And I would always call collect too, you know, because I never had any change. So I would call her and, and I would tell her, they're after me. And she'd say, who's after you? And I would say, you know them. And, and I never knew who it was, you know. And, and she would just say things like, well, wait until they touch you and then call me back. And that clicked in my mind. And I was like, she helped me Get out of that paranoia and what I call drug-induced schizophrenia. But the thing is, is that she always came to my rescue. After I would had enough, after being out there for 2 weeks and I was just running ragged, I would call her and she would say, where are you? And she'd come pick me up. And it was always— We'd go buy a pack of cigarettes for me because she didn't smoke, and then she'd take me through the drive-through at Taco Bell, and then she would take me back to her house. And every time I would get the same lecture: I can't keep doing this for you. I can't keep doing this for you. Well, the last time I was able to stay with my parents, my stepfather told my mom. He can't come here anymore. So she put a lawn chair in the backyard and hid it and put food out there for me and a blanket and a pillow. And then as soon as he would leave, she would come and hide me back there. And, and that's where I would stay.

Wow.

And, and even though She was enabling me. She was doing her job as a mother. But the thing is, is that it kept me going. It kept me sick. I didn't have to experience pain the way I needed to.

Wow.

And that was a big deal. It wasn't until I moved to the East Coast and I had to start experiencing pain the way I needed to that I actually started having some consequences to my actions and choices. Wow.

Wow.

Yeah.

So in active addiction, you realized that this was unhealthy behavior and you needed to— did you consciously say, I need to escape this to get better?

Yes. Yes. Yeah, I did. And I think a lot of that has to do with when I studied ministry, you know, at a younger age, I really believe that, like, God was preparing me for what was about to happen in my life. And so I carried that relationship with a higher power with me into my addiction. So being an addict wasn't much fun for me because I always had this angel over here and this devil over here, you know? So, and I'm fortunate for that.

And in what ways do you think your higher power, this angel, helped you through it?

There were a lot of times where I shouldn't have lived, you know, a lot of times where I shouldn't have lived. Like I pulled the car over on the side of the freeway and got out and ran across lanes of traffic trying to escape from somebody that was in my backseat. And there was nobody in my backseat. I had OD'd and got taken to the emergency room on 2 occasions and woke up with my mom and my sister standing over the top of me. You know, my life was just spared a lot. And I really believe that to this day that it was because I had a higher purpose in life. And one of those is to sit right here with you and talk about this today.

Yeah.

The other was because my mother is such a strong woman of faith, I believe her prayers kept me alive a lot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Interesting.

My goal is to help other gay men escape the terror and the bondage of addiction from meth because I know how sad it is and how sick it is. And to have more self-awareness and insight and to realize and come to an understanding and a level ground that we are all just men and that we don't need to judge ourselves and that it's not our business what other people think about us.

Right. Right. Yeah. So how do you get to that point?

I think a lot of letting myself down, letting myself down. Other people are always going to let me down, but that's okay. You know, that's life. Because if they weren't, then everything would be really easy. And, you know, but I've learned to not build expectations around what others you know, think about me. But letting myself down. When I started allowing myself to just have a taste of what success could be like, I liked that.

Yeah.

I gave it a chance because I would always be up for like that next promotion or that next gig or whatever. And the night before, I would go out and put a needle in my arm and completely sabotage it.

Mm-hmm.

And something within me was telling me, you're not good enough. Something within me was telling me, you know how to do torture really bad, but you don't know how to do success. It was very foreign to me and very uncomfortable. So, I learned how to live in the discomfort And to be okay with that. And when I started learning how to live in discomfort, it wasn't uncomfortable anymore. And what I realized was other people didn't have such high expectations of me. It was the expectations I had of myself.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what you're saying is, I think, very important for people to hear. In that many men are not— they're not understanding why is it that when I get my first paycheck in recovery, or when I get my car, or when I get a job offer, that, that makes you— it triggers you and activates you to go completely 180. And dive and binge into a relapse.

Yeah.

And what you're what you're saying is, what'd you say?

It's a lot of freedom.

Freedom, and it's and it's we're uncomfortable with achieving. Yes. Right.

Yes.

We we're comfortable with the we're comfortable with reconciling with what we really believe with ourselves, which is that we're a failure.

Right, right, right. Well, let me tell you something. So my niece actually had a baby recently, and I saw a picture of the baby, and he's now over a year old, but he had on a shirt and it said, all the girls love me. And I saw that, and what a beautiful, adorable, great nephew of mine. However, I looked at that shirt and I thought, this is the society that we grow up in. He's not even a year old yet and he's already wearing a shirt that says, all the girls love me. And I thought to myself, this is how we expose children.

Mm-hmm.

And growing up, if I were— had to have worn that shirt as a baby and then so on, I would've grown up thinking, That's who I was supposed to be. And I grew up in a very small town in Wyoming where being gay was not even a thing. It was never discussed. And when we moved to Seattle and I met the very first gay person I ever met, I was shaking. I was like, I was in awe. And I'm like, oh my gosh, it was like You know, meeting a celebrity or something, you know, because it's like, you're the person I've always wanted to be.

Yeah.

And so becoming comfortable with who I was took a long time because what I realized was it wasn't who I slept with and who I had sex with, it's who I loved. And they were completely separate. It took me years to understand that whenever I laid down with another man, that I associated that with methamphetamine.

Mm-hmm.

And that I didn't know how to make love. I only knew how to have sex. And, and it is a daily reprieve for me. It is a daily reprieve to still become comfortable in my skin with who I am. And to leave all those negative and untruthful thoughts behind me.

So you're saying, what I hear you saying is what many of us, almost all of us in meth addiction face is that the crystal meth magically took the shame away. from having sex with another man.

Yeah.

And we're not addicted to the sex. We're addicted to the feeling of finally being normal.

Right?

Right.

Yeah.

So can you talk about, if you're comfortable, what was the— what's the process been like to enjoy sober sex and to uncouple the, the association of crystal meth with sex?

So first of all, I have a partner now that is amazing, and he has made me feel very comfortable in that. So, um, I think that's really important, uh, because it's not a production anymore, you know. Um, and before it was a production.

Yeah.

I think you know what I mean.

Oh, yeah.

And so now it's just like a simple, a simple thing, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a beautiful gesture, I guess, more so than having to plan and, and get the hotel room and get the lighting right and staple the curtains to the wall. And All of, you know, the ridiculous things, the fire alarm on the ceiling and, you know, everything that came with it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Finding a partner who understands that you're healing from something must help, right? And give you the space. Yeah. Go ahead.

Oh, it does. Absolutely. And, you know, when I met him, I was just looking for somebody to date. It wasn't something I expected to happen. And now he's become like my best friend.

And I love it.

And we have a relationship. And I also met him when I got sober too. So, you know, which was always frowned upon, like, you know, don't meet anybody in your first year, all that. But, um, I have to tell you, never touched drugs in his life.

Yeah.

And, um, so for him to understand that I'm a recovering addict and for him to understand that I need fellowship and I need connection with a higher power, There are days that go by where I feel like maybe he's not human and that he's an angel.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I believe that.

Yeah.

I love it. Yeah. Well, I'm going to put a— get on my little soapbox for a second and make sure the listeners heard this is that rules are rules. They're guidelines in some of these programs. For a reason. But we have to individually gauge where we are in our sobriety, what's right for us, and what aligns and resonates for our individual needs. And if Mark had listened to what people were telling him, he could have deflected what has been now A life-changing relationship. If he would have said, sorry, I have to wait a year before I date anyone, you're deflecting the blessing that's coming along. Now, maybe he would have come back, but it's important to note here, stop adding undue shame and pressure on yourself by blindly going along what someone says you can and can't fucking do in the first year of your sobriety.

Right.

Okay, done.

I support you 100%. Yeah. Just because somebody said something 50 years ago and it worked for them, it doesn't mean it has to work for you. And that's the way I look at my own recovery. It's my recovery.

That's right.

So I think that there's a foundation behind every program. But it doesn't mean I have to be in that 100% for the rest of my life. I have my own relationship with my own belief system about what my recovery is. And it works for me.

That's right. Thank you for saying that.

Yeah.

I love that. Yeah. That's a soundbite for that right there. My recovery.

Yeah. Do you care? Actually, my boyfriend needs to walk through the room. Is it okay?

Yeah, go ahead.

You can go. Oh, now he says no.

He could crawl or something.

I don't know.

No, it's fine. We can also edit. You're fine.

You can walk through.

Yeah. That's cute. Um, so I'm interested to— I'm putting myself in the listener's shoes here. And in this podcast, we talk a lot about how people got, you know, how people get into the addiction.

Yeah.

And for the most part, our stories are all aligned almost, right? But I'm interested to know, you're— you've got to New Jersey, you had a friend who was your anchor, you get into a program, you meet, you know, How is it that you, you know, how is it that you switched? What made you quit? And what— and more importantly, you said you're coming up on a year. What were your relapses like? Like, did you learn— what did you learn from them? And how did you make the best of them?

Well, it wasn't that any of it was good. I didn't make the best of anything.

Okay.

Because I went from being acceptable to myself and having a job and paying my bills and being responsible into a relapse. And within 24 hours, I was on the streets, mentally ill, Trying to sell my body again, chasing the next bag, and sitting somewhere in a motel peeking out the curtains, terrified to go out into the sun within 24 hours. Every single time that happened, and it only got worse and worse and worse and worse and worse each time that I would relapse. And so I could tell you right now that if I were to pick up and use today. I would lose my job. I would lose my home. I would lose my dogs. I would lose my relationship. I would lose everything I have and all the trust that I've built with my family and my loved ones. My friends in recovery would be there for me, but there would be boundaries. But I'm not willing. I'm not willing to lose all of this and for that. I have to tell you, there are moments that go by in my life where I do have like a brief craving, I guess you could call it, for the feeling or for a memory, you know? So when euphoria comes back, I'll be like, oh my God, that was so hot. And then I'll be like— Okay, but you remember what happened right after that?

Yeah, right.

And so I do, I play the tape all the way through. And in the end, there was never a celebration. There was never cake and ice cream or balloons. There was never fireworks. It was always a visit to the hospital, or me waking up and wanting to kill myself, or me being in somebody else's home that I didn't even know. Or somebody dropping me off discreetly at the ER and taking off because they didn't want to be responsible for what kind of condition I was in. It was never, ever, ever good, ever. You know, even there were times where I would be out there for so long and I would just be hungry, you know, hungry. And I remember meeting this guy at a soup kitchen just because I wandered in there just for— because I was scared to be on the streets during the day. And so I thought, I'll just be around these people in here and I'll just fit right in, you know? And I even thought I was worse than them. And they were like people that had been living on the streets for years. And I met this guy and he actually had a car. And so we were going to go and score some more dope. And I got in his car and I was so hungry. And I looked down and there was a little hot sauce packet from Taco Bell on the floorboard. And I looked at it and I picked it up and I opened it and I dripped it on my tongue. And it was The best thing I'd ever tasted.

Wow.

That's how hungry I was. And I just savored that and I just squeezed a little bit more and squeezed it. And it was like I was eating a whole meal.

Wow.

And I'll never, ever, ever forget that. Ever forget that, you know, of being in somebody's home and waking up and being so hungry and going to their refrigerator and they didn't have any food. But there would be like a pickle in a pickle jar and I would like drink all the pickle juice and feel like I had eaten a whole meal. And I look back on all those times and I was like, I was really, really sick.

Yeah.

I was really sick. But what that does for me today is it gives me gratitude. It gives me so much gratitude because I'm able to go buy groceries today.

Mm-hmm.

And when I go out to dinner and I have food left over and I take it out with me, if I'm on the sidewalk walking to my car and I see somebody that's hungry, I give them that. You know, I don't give food or excuse me, money to people on the streets anymore. I will take them by the hand and I will walk with them. To a food cart or something and I'll buy them a meal because that's important to me. I don't want to continue to feed their disease. I would rather let them eat something because I went hungry for a long time. Yeah.

That's touching and amazing. And I want to thank you for sharing that. Yeah. And important. to what I call it a gratitude anchor, right? Is that if you can take yourself back to a situation, and it can either be high vibe that makes you feel grateful, or it could be, you know, sucking on a hot sauce packet because you're so starved, you know, and anchoring into that to provide perspective. So when you're in your sober life, And you want to bitch and complain because you're bored with a 9-to-5 job and you're bored with life now and you just want to use, you anchor into, oh yeah, it was only a few years ago that I was so hungry I couldn't— I could only eat a hot sauce packet.

Right, right.

And, and understand that when you have a trigger, you're— it's 3 AM and you want to get on Grindr and you're horny. Yeah, you, you think, well, I just, you know, I just want to have some hot sex. Yeah, it's not using chemsex and using Grindr is not the sex. It's all of it.

That's right.

It's like you said, you use and all of a sudden, you know, for many of us, as soon as we get it in our system, we convert back to wherever it was we were before. It could have been 2 years ago before we— that the last time we used. But we immediately pick up where we left off.

That's right. That's right. And it's even worse this time. You know, it is. It's worse each time. And I actually have kept videos of myself.

Yeah.

When I used to use. I really can't believe that was me. Like, I look at my face and I was so sick and I had so much nerve damage, and I believe like neurological damage. My face was so distorted and my body movements that I couldn't hold still. And I almost looked like I suffered from Tourette's or something, you know, because I would just jolt out of my seat, you know, or just do these really Strange tics with my my body and my face, and I remember I remember walking down the street and there was a woman and her child walking coming toward me, and when they saw me, she it was like she took her child and she. She ran to the other side of the street and I was so upset with myself because I knew that the way I looked was so scary that she didn't want her child to see me. And that hurt me so bad that I was in public and that people were afraid of me because that's not who I was inside.

Yeah.

That's who I'd physically become.

Yeah.

And, um, I hated it so much. I did.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a, there's a video on YouTube. There's a— I forgot what the program is called, but they interview homeless people. And but one of the people they interview, they bring it— they pay this young meth addict to come in, and, and because, because he's getting money, he comes in and gets interviewed.

Yeah.

Watch his body uncontrollably jerk.

Yeah.

And to see him wasting away.

Yeah.

You know, that's the video you need to bring up when you're tempted to watch some PNP porn, right?

Yeah.

That's the video you need to bring up to, you know, if you want to cockblock.

Right.

Because that can easily be you.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, um, okay, going back to your story, um, and you, you, you're clean, you're back to— and how— so what do you think— let me ask you this— what do you think is the most misunderstood about crystal meth use and about the addiction?

Misunderstood?

Yeah.

I think that— I think that in about the drug itself or about the people using it?

Either, both, and yeah.

So I think what's misunderstood about it is that We use it as an excuse to party and to be a part of and to be in that clique.

Mm-hmm.

And as you've said before in your own podcasts, you've said that the meth community is of its own. And I 100% believe that. It is set aside completely from other addictions. And there's a myth that it's cool to use Tina and that it is a party drug and that it enhances and makes everything better. But the thing is, is that there's an end to that story and that story's never told.

Yeah.

Always, you know, what it can do for you, not what it's going to do to you. And, um, yeah, one of the things that I used to do when somebody would ask me to shoot them up is I would tell them, I would show them my arms first of all, and I would say, you know, I have no veins left and I can't. Do this anymore to myself. Is that what you want? And then I would tell them really horrible stories about my addiction. And I would tell them, you know, before I do this for you, you have to know that that's what happened to me. And sometimes people would say, no, I don't want to do it. And then other times people would say, yes, I want to. And so I would do it for them, you know? People would offer me money to do it for them and everything. I yeah, um, I I used to justify in my mind that well, at least I'm doing it for them and it's not somebody else that could hurt them. But I was hurting them, you know.

Yeah, yeah, just in a different way. Yeah, yeah.

I know. Um, I don't really understand the question of. The way it's misunderstood.

Oh, well, you've answered it.

Okay. All right.

Yeah.

There's no way of really— there's no way of really saying that there's anything positive that comes of it. You know, I've met people and strangely enough, it's really strange. I used to get really angry when I would walk into somebody's home and, and I was there to score and I was also there to get laid. And I'd get there and there would be like a female there and I'd be like, what is she doing here?

Yeah.

Like, why is she here?

Yeah. Go.

You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Because if there was nothing worse in the world, it was having a female present when I was trying to get high. Because it didn't affect them the same way, and they want to do crossword puzzles, or they want me to do their—

Adult coloring books.

And I'm like, yeah, or, um, adult coloring books. Yeah, with the gel pens that I used to go shoplift for my dealer's wife. Yeah, all of that. Yes. And I hated that so much, and I was just like Can she leave? You know, like, but then on the other hand, I'm a good human, so I'm trying to like be nice to her, you know, because it's my dealer's wife.

Right, right.

Exactly.

Yeah. See, that's a— that's something very misunderstood about the drug. Yeah.

Well, she would never know that her husband and I would always have sex, you know, but it's— yeah.

Yeah.

That was the other twisted part of, of life, you know, it was like, I think at one point in time in my addiction, I had sex with more straight men than I had gay men.

Yeah.

Yeah. Because—

Yeah. So perfect. That's, yeah, that's something that mostly people aren't understanding is that In this, with this drug, straight men, you know, suddenly aren't so straight. Right?

Right.

There's a subset of men out there who are carrying around guilt and shame about what they did on meth.

Yeah.

Yeah. Because they're living a straight life now.

Right.

You know, men were their fetish on the drug.

Yes.

They're out there suffering too. And that's a subject— there's a subject that I want to address on the podcast at some point.

Well, and there were treatment centers that I would go through and guys would sit in these groups and, and I, at first I would be like, he's so mean to me. He hates me. He's so homophobic. And then it clicked in my mind. I'm like, oh, he's afraid of me.

Yes.

Because He had sex with other guys while he was high.

Right.

And you know that by the time I would leave those treatment centers, those were my closest friends because I wanted nothing from them. And we would build a camaraderie and we were able to hug and we were able to like chill at night together and everything. And I didn't want sex from them. And I'm so grateful that I became that gay guy that they became comfortable with themselves through. Because I believe that that's a big part of this community, is just because you go out and suck a dick while you're high doesn't make you gay.

Right, exactly.

You know what I mean? And, and society thinks that, oh, well, he takes it up the ass, he must be a fag. No, he— no, that's not it at all. You know what I mean? Like, come on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you said, that's for a whole other podcast.

Definitely. Yeah, yeah, it's a good topic. It's a good topic. Yeah, thank you for bringing it up.

Yeah.

Um, so in your, um, in your sobriety journey, you, you had mentioned AA before. Um, what experiences have you had? What works best for you in terms of a, uh, healing?

My spiritual foundation in that program I do. I've been in other programs and I have gone to CMA and I've gone to NA. And the thing is, is that I don't find that a lot of behavior changes in other programs, but for some reason I find more maturity and more spiritual grounding in AA.

Mm-hmm.

I just do. I mean, and I feel like there's more long-term sobriety there too. I have a difficult time going to CMA because if I go to a CMA meeting and I sit down and I look around at some of the guys, I'd be like, I'm like, oh my God, why didn't I meet him when I was high? You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And that's what goes through my mind. Let's just not have those meetings anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Why keep torturing myself?

Right. So, right.

Yeah.

Yeah. And that's— I'm so glad you said that because if you're listening and you're, you know, you're triggered and you're activated by CMA meetings, but you feel like you have to go, you don't. You don't have to go. And it's perfectly normal. It is perfectly valid to sit in a room with a bunch of gay men who, you know, knows what it feels like. You know, it takes you, and you know that it could be 5 to 10 minutes away from the both of you relapsing together. If you're attracted to one another, there's a risk there. Now, not to say that that always happens, and there's a lot, a bunch of CMA groups who offer a different type of space and environment where you don't feel as activated and as triggered. That does happen. There's also CMA Online, where you can keep your camera off, you know, you try not to look around and that kind of thing. So, but it— there's 2 ways to look at it. It does kind of— it's kind of an exposure therapy, you know. You expose yourself to that kind of room and you're still not using, then you've come a long way, right?

Yeah.

Um, in the beginning it can be very triggering, and so it's okay. It's okay, I think, to find what works for you. And Mark is using AA, and that, that seems to be What works for you? And you said you're getting through the 12 steps, right?

I am. Yeah.

How's that experience been for you?

Awesome. Yeah, it has. It's not as hard as I thought it was going to be. I made such a big deal of it before. Oh, this isn't hard.

Yeah.

It's just actually doing the work.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's the hard part. You have to do the work, you know. Holding myself accountable and responsible and actually making the time for something healthy is new for me.

Hmm.

I always made time. I would travel to other states to go score dope. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

I'd walk there in the snow. But if I wake up and I'm sleepy or whatever, and I'll come up with some form of excuse as to why I don't need to go to a meeting or a function or whatever. So now I have to remind myself, You know, I would have driven a stolen car to go pick up drugs.

That's right. Oh, so yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that's a great perspective.

And I did.

Yeah, you did.

A couple times, you know, I went to jail for it. But yeah, yeah, yeah.

Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you feel like is important from your story or what you've discovered or something? You Feel like you want to mention, and don't feel pressure. I just want to make sure I covered it all.

I don't think so. Yeah, good. Yeah, good. I think also well there is one thing. So you know people are afraid to allow society to know who they are once they get into recovery, and um and that was a concern of mine before. Because I didn't want my clientele to know what type of person I used to be. And I'm at a place in my life now where I'm really surprised that people are not afraid of me anymore and they're less quick to judge me for my past, but they are more about seeing who I am now and seeing how far I've come. And I feel like I've gained more from that rather than losing.

Yeah.

Because I held myself accountable when I relapsed a year ago, because I have a year clean now. I allowed my neighbors to know what I was up to. I allowed my landlord to know what I was up to. I allowed my employer to know. And as a matter of fact, when I celebrated a year clean 3 days ago, I walked into work and the girls in the salon, they all hugged me and gave me a beautiful card.

Aw.

It's right here. And it says, "Happy soberversary." Oh, I love that card. They all signed the inside of it with a.

Oh, I love that. That's supportive.

And not just that, but my boss gave me a one-year coin. Oh, and I'm like, what? They're on board with me.

Yeah. Yeah.

So it's, it's pretty awesome, you know. Um, I highly recommend telling the people that are closest to you what you're up to.

Yeah.

Because then, then, um, you can't get away with anything, you know what I mean? And also, I have allowed those people to point out to me, like, If I'm starting to be squirrely or whatever, you know, because I can't see that in myself. If I have meditating and praying on a consistent basis, then I might, you know, fall into a little exaggeration here and there, which then to lying, which then leads to this and that. And before I know it, there I go.

Interesting.

So I have asked people in my life, you know, can you please hold me accountable? By letting me know if I seem out of sorts.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah. So yeah, that's really important to underscore here too, is that your last relapse, it was a relapse, but it was a conscious— you were conscious, you were aware, you were open, you were honest, right? Yeah. And many of us We fear admitting to people that you know that we're fear. We fear of letting them down. We fear of of seeming weak or you know whatever or even more of a failure. But it actually takes so much more strength to be honest about where you are.

Yeah.

Don't you agree?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's just that. You know, I had never really truly been alone, even though I was alone for a long time in my life, you know, at certain times. And I could be in a room full of 100 people and be extremely alone. And that's where I was at when I relapsed the last time, you know. I had everything. But I had nothing.

Yeah.

When I went into this last treatment center, I have to tell you, there were so many people that were sitting there and they were like, I'm so afraid to get out of here because I have a lot of friends, but they all use. And I said, well, that's— and I shared with them, I said, it's really interesting because When I get out of here, I have to call my cleaning lady and I have to, you know, my life was totally different than theirs.

Yeah.

It's like they have nowhere to even go. And here, my biggest worry was calling my cleaning lady, you know? And so it's like the different levels of perception of life are Are so, so bizarre to me. You know, like my pain and my bottom was completely different than somebody else's. Oh, and today I, I hang out with people that were, you know, robbers and murderers and this and that. And you know, and it's like some of my, my closest friends. But we've all changed.

Yeah. We've all.

And, um, yeah, life's— yeah. Yeah. And my son is in recovery now too.

What'd you say?

My son is now in recovery.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Nice.

Yeah.

And, uh, okay. Does he live close to you or?

He lives in Seattle.

Okay. All right. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Yeah. That's a whole segment of your life we didn't cover.

I know. Yeah, yeah.

We'll have to come back because there's a whole other— there's a whole other subject here, and that is the guilt you carry as a parent addict.

That is— that is totally for another time because that story is a sad but beautiful story.

Wow. Yeah, well, please come back because I have thoroughly enjoyed this. All right. Yes, a lot. Very much. And thank you for for coming on. Thank you for sharing that. And I know, I know this is going to help many.

I mean, that was the whole point behind it is that I just, I want to help other guys recover from from meth addiction.

It's yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you're listening and this has helped you. Comment, comment below in the show notes, comment in the YouTube notes. What was your takeaway? What did you gain from this? What would you add? We want to hear your comments. Or if you want to talk about the episode, we do have a Facebook group. It's called The Aftermath, where we can discuss not only the podcast but any other questions or problems you might be going through. If you're a loved one of a meth addict, That's a place for you to come and get support as well. We also have a Discord server. It's called the Aftermath Community. We have a website. Guess what it's called? Aftermath.net. Um, at the aftermath.net, there's also places where you can fill out anonymous surveys if you want to anonymously contribute your thoughts, your questions, you want to share something to get it off your chest that's bothering you. Um, you know, earlier today I shared something on, on a social media channel that was very vulnerable and very dark about something that I did, and immediately got a comment saying, I'm so thankful that you shared that because it has released some guilt from me because I've been carrying the same thing around. And that's what happens sometimes when you get something off your chest, it actually gets something off someone else's chest inadvertently. So you're Indirectly healing. So on the website, you can check out all the different surveys and places where you can ask questions or share. Other than that, what am I— what am I missing? I think that's it. Thank you for being here today, and we will see you next time.

Thank you.