EP 1: 18 From Junkie to Judge with Mary Beth
In this episode of the After Meth Podcast, host Dr. Dallas Bragg interviews Mary Beth O'Connor, author of the memoir From Junkie to Judge: One Woman's Triumph Over Trauma and Addiction and former federal administrative law judge. The conversation traces Mary Beth’s early life of severe abuse and neglect, her descent into methamphetamine use at age 16, and her eventual sobriety in 1994. They discuss the structure and purpose of her memoir, emphasizing the need to show the trauma that precedes addiction rather than just the chaotic middle. Mary Beth outlines her recovery philosophy: a self‑empowered, secular approach that blends multiple peer‑support models (Women for Sobriety, SMART Recovery, LifeRing, She Recovers, Recovery Dharma) and professional therapy. They explore emotional sobriety, the distinction between releasing negative emotions and forgiveness, and practical tools such as personal recovery plans, incremental goal‑setting, and the CRAFT model for families. The dialogue also covers family dynamics, boundaries with a toxic mother, supporting a sibling with ongoing addiction, and the role of a supportive spouse. Throughout, both speakers stress the importance of finding a recovery community that resonates with one’s identity, the value of secular alternatives for atheists, and the ongoing work of healing trauma alongside substance‑use disorder. The episode ends with resources, contact information, and an invitation for listeners to engage with the podcast community.
Chapters
The one line, I think my favorite line in the whole book is when you found the group that resonated with you. And instead of saying, my name's Mary Beth and I'm an addict, you said, my name's Mary Beth and I'm a competent woman. I still, I get chills again.
Me too. I got chills when I read it. I got chills when I said it. That's Women for Sobriety's introduction. And yeah, that's right. That balance. Look, I, I, For me, this is an example of why what works for us in recovery can change over time.
Welcome to the After Meth Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create a repository of resources for current and past addicts, as well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermath. Trigger warning, this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey and you feel like you could be triggered by discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, Please do not listen to this podcast. All right, now on with the show. Hey, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I am very excited today to have our first cis woman on the podcast, um, and our first author. And, um, last— we, we tried this before, and it was the first time I had a nightmare about a podcast. But I'll tell you, I will be honest with you, uh, Mary Beth, I have this instant trigger when I'm around or talking to anyone who I perceive to be in the justice system. I'll be honest with you. I was, you know, I've been arrested 4 times. I've been in jail. And then I went through drug treatment court where I stood before a judge every other week. So I think that's part of what it's been in my head a little bit. And I've been Really kind of very nervous to speak to you, I'll be honest with you.
Well, and I will say, this is why I always emphasize, like, no, do not call me Your Honor. I mean, first of all, I'm retired, but second of all, I'm just Mary Beth, you know? I'm just a person now. In fact, I remember the first time when I had to identify myself as Judge O'Connor. That was, that was a really weird, you know, feeling. So it was a job. You know, I'm proud of the accomplishment, but it's really not the essence of who I am.
Yeah, well, thank you for saying that. Okay, well, let me leave with your introduction and we'll get started here. Mary Beth has been clean and sober since 1994. She also is in recovery from abuse, trauma, self-harm, PTSD, and anxiety. Her history and her recovery are chronicled in her award-winning memoir, what we're talking about today, From Junkie to Judge: One Woman's Triumph Over Trauma and Addiction. And I know you, you Chose that title purposely. I know, right?
Yes. Yes.
She's had essays in such publications as the Wall Street Journal, the Los Angeles Times, and Recovery Today. Mary Beth is a director, secretary, and founding investor for She Recovers Foundation and a director for LifeRing Secular Recovery. She regularly speaks on behalf of these organizations and about multiple and secular paths to recovery. This includes conferences, podcasts, radio, television, and recovery houses. She develops relationships with other organizations such as Women for Sobriety, and Mary Beth trains attorneys and medical professionals about substance use disorder and recovery. Love that. Professionally, 6 years into her recovery, Mary Beth attended Berkeley Law. She worked at a large firm, then litigated class actions for the federal government. In 2014, she was appointed a federal administrative law judge. From which position she retired early in 2020. Welcome, welcome, welcome, Mary Beth O'Connor.
Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to it.
First of all, I just have to say, if you're listening to this, you need to read this book.
Thank you.
You need to read this book. Also, if you're a meth addict who has used IV, you need to know that you might be triggered by reading this book because it's so Well written. I just couldn't believe how masterfully you caught, you described in words what it's like to use intravenously. And just the way you went about it, I was triggered a little bit, to be honest with you, because I was like, wow, this is so real, you know, but great job writing this book.
Well, thank you. And I will say, you know, when I started thinking about writing the memoir, I actually realized I need to read memoir. And when I realized it was written like a novel, that really was like, oh, because I had excellent legal writing skills, but I didn't know how to write that way. And so I actually was, you know, sort of humble and honest with myself. And I took writing classes on a variety of subjects, memoir writing, and even just fiction, because it is written in the novel format.
Wow.
And I will say my proudest moment was when the library Librarians of America reviewed the book and they said it was a harrowing yet ultimately rewarding story. But my favorite part, they said it was page-turning prose. Yay, the Librarians of America think it's page-turning prose. So all that work on the writing was worth it.
Yes, I love that. I love that you took classes, um, because I was just thinking to myself, damn, how does she know? Because it really is page-turning. I mean, I'm not just saying that. Like, I, the thing too, reading it from an addict's point of view, of course, you know, I related to so much. But I also was fascinated about the differences, you know, because my audience is primarily gay men who use meth. And they don't do crossroads and smoke cigarettes when they shoot up like you did, you know. So the differences. too, the similarities and differences. But I, I was fascinated by this, and I just think everybody in— anybody, if, if you're not in, um, in recovery or not, should read this book. Um, and I, I just, I just applaud you for it. It's great.
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.
Yeah. So I, for the first time, you know, again, I was kind of nervous having you here, so I did prepare some questions. We'll see if we, we go with them. But I also purposely didn't watch your other podcasts because I just didn't want to— I didn't want to psych myself out either. But you've done a bunch of podcasts. So if you're listening to this and you want to hear, you know, different takes on the book and different angles, go out and just Google Mary Beth O'Connor. She's everywhere. But the book opens up with you getting your high school diploma. And right before you went across the stage, you shot up meth. And I just want to know, like, how old were you when you first shot up? I mean, I know, but tell us, the listeners. Yeah.
And so, so I had a really heavy history of child abuse in my life, physical and sexual, emotional, verbal, and also no real parental interest in me. And so for me, drugs were like an early— had early appeal to not just use, but to use So it started with alcohol when I was 12, Boone's Farm Strawberry Hill wine, which I know a lot of people know. Um, and then I, you know, added weed, pills, a lot of acid my sophomore year of high school. Meth, I started when I was 16, and I was shooting up within 6 months. At 17 years old, I was shooting meth. So I was in really bad shape by the end of my senior year of high school. Wow.
So you, you talked about your, your childhood and It was tumultuous would probably be a good word, I would think. I was just— it occurred to me when I was reading it because I was also reading it from the perspective of the people that— that the guys that I help. And I wanted your opinion on this and speak to this, is that what do you think is more traumatic and contributes to drug use more? What happened to us as kids or what was neglected from us?
You know, it's a really good question because when I got sober and started therapy, and I did start, you know, I had trauma therapy for many years, I really did think of it as the sort of the high-level events, like the worst beatings, the, you know, I had several rapes, including multiple assailants. You know, one lasted 6 hours. I always thought of it in terms of those big events. And it took me a while to really realize it started before that. It started when I was a kid, before I moved in with my stepfather. grandfather who was, you know, the most violent in my life when I was 9, um, because my mother wasn't connected or bonded with me. She just— there was no, like, mothering connection. And I remembered back, and I, I include this in the book because I wanted to show what led up to my using drugs at that level at that age. For example, when I was like 4 years old, I used to have a lot of counting behaviors, you know, like I, I like things to end on odd numbers. I would count syllables as someone was talking. I had a lot of sort of comfort, um, techniques when I was trying to get to sleep and my mind was already spinning at 4 or 5 years old. And I had like my fingers, they— I gave them all like they were all a character and they would talk to each other. And so you're right that there was a lot of it from the beginning was the neglect and that had a big impact. Also, I wasn't— I didn't live with my mother for this first 6 months of my life. I was left at a convent for 6 months, later with a great-grandmother for 3 years. And so Part of it was that I knew I was on my own. There was no one to sort of be on my side or help me through things. But also when the severe violence started with my stepfather, I knew I had nowhere to turn. And so that made the whole thing a lot worse. But you're right, then the emotional neglect is a big part of my story and a lot of people's story as well.
Yeah, it just occurred to me because You know, for me, in my meth addiction, I was searching for acceptance. I was searching for approval. I was searching for a man to love me. And I thought, wait a minute, it's what I didn't get, you know? And then the image of you laying in bed and talking to your fingers as people, I was just like, I used to do that because, you know, you don't— You you just you're you're so you're so little, and you have nowhere to turn, and you don't know how to manage and process what is going on, and you just you don't know what else to do besides create. I I created all kinds of imaginary friends, not just my fingers, but other people and things, and just somebody to to try to manage what was going on inside.
Right. I mean, it was a stress. We were trying to manage our stress and calm ourselves, you know, and and we're kids. I mean, I didn't understand that that's. what I was doing, but, but that's what I was doing. Um, and, and it is interesting that, that soothing behavior that we tried— I mean, children need comfort, you know, they need to feel that they have a bond. And when you're without that, it can create a lot of trauma. My husband, when, when he first met me, he said, um, that I was like the monkeys that never got held when they were babies, you know.
Oh, yeah.
That's what I reminded him of. And, um, there was always that That sort of need for connection, but also a mistrust that I was ever really going to get it, or that I could believe in it even if it was offered to me.
Yeah, yeah. I know I'm jumping around a lot. Is are you still married to Doc?
I am. I am. In fact, on Saturday we're having our 40th anniversary party, which I know makes me sound ancient, but I swear I was in college when we started. But yes, I mean, we we almost did not make it through my addiction. He was like really done with me when I went into rehab. Rehab at 32 when I went in, but we did manage to survive it with a lot of hard work and couples counseling, and we have a very happy, loving relationship.
Yeah, yeah. I encourage you to read this book and really look at the relationship and the fact that you really did have an anchor at your worst with him, and he stuck by. But you also alluded to the fact that what was wrong with him that he stuck by you, right?
That's right. That's right. I mean, his self-preservation should have said, I'm out of here, years before he was finally ready to say it. That, that, that is true. But it is also true that when I went into recovery, that was an advantage. I mean, not everyone has a safe— he would— look, he wasn't loving at the time. He wasn't, you know, emotionally supportive, but He was he was a nice guy, so he wasn't harming me in any way, like even emotionally. And he allowed me to come home to live in a safe environment, and that was definitely an advantage that I had in my early recovery.
Yeah, yes, yes, for sure. Well, you know, so I want to talk about your mother a little bit because most of us gay meth addicts have horror stories of our parents, right? We have. overbearing dads, or we have neglectful mothers, um, and we were rejected most of the time for our sexuality, either in our culture, church, or whatever. Um, you know, we have all of that going on. So in the 12— and most of us were made to go through the 12 steps, which we'll talk about in a minute, and we're made to feel like we have to make amends. And so it's a big— it's a big hurdle, I think. And I'm trying to change that concept a little bit and look at it differently. But there was something, and I just wanted to read one line out of here, that after you were sober, you're in recovery, after all that happened, and you guys have to really appreciate what Mary Beth went through with her mother and the stepdad too. But after all you went through, you didn't have to see your mother anymore, but you kept going back to help her. And there's a scene where she's pummeling you while you're driving down the road. And you still— I think that was that point. Let me just read this one line that it got me when you said, I decided to disengage from her emotionally since I could not change her, only myself. Yes, I, I love that. I was like, yes, when I read that, I got chill bumps. But can you expand on that a little bit? Um, and You know, for those of us having trouble forgiving our parents, can you expand on that a little bit and how you, how you maneuvered it? Yeah.
So, um, so when I got sober, my mother— my relationship with my mother in my sober life wasn't, um, wasn't, uh, uh, as negative because of what she did as a child. Like, I might have been able to, for maybe to forgive that, but she kept doing things. Like, she never changed. She was making a lot of financial demands on me when I got sober. sober, even though she had a gambling problem and I wasn't gonna, you know, waste my hard-earned money on that. Um, and she, and she did. She could be physically abusive still to me once, uh, even in my sobriety, even when I was an adult. That time you referenced was the last time because I told her I would have her arrested next time, and I would've. Um, and so, but at the same time, my mother had custody of my nieces and nephew from my sister.
Oh yeah.
And I wanted access to them. And so I had to keep some kind of relationship with her. But it was also that what I realized in my early recovery was I was allowing her to trigger me so that I behaved badly. You know, she would start it. She would, you know, jump on me when I didn't do what she wanted or didn't respond the way she wanted. And then she would start yelling and being abusive and I would respond and I would start yelling and, you know, being mean back. And then I realized like, I don't want to behave like that, right? I don't want to act like that. But also, This woman can't be trusted emotionally. She's not a trustworthy person. And so, I need to emotionally separate from her so she doesn't trigger me anymore. So, it was both that I didn't want to feel the trigger, but I also didn't want to behave the way I was letting myself behave when she pushed my buttons. And so, I started to try to do better. And it was a process. It was definitely not a light switch. It was a process. So, So, the way I describe it is that in the beginning, if things were sort of neutral or just a little negative, I could behave sort of calmly and rationally. But if she got highly emotional, I might drift back to bad behavior. But over time, no matter what she did, I could stay calm and not react. And honestly not react, like internally not react, not just look calm, but actually be unaffected. The day I realized that was she was mad at me about something and I was probably like, I don't know, 5 or more years sober. and she called me a junkie whore. And I looked at her and I thought, that has no impact on me whatsoever. Like, I don't even care. And that was a beautiful day.
Yes.
The other thing I'll say about that is I'm actually writing a piece right now that I'm going to try to get published about— I don't believe that you do have to forgive. And I think, um, that the pressure to forgive can be dangerous. I think what you need to do for your own mental health Is release the energy, the negative energy, release, you know, resolve the pain, get to the point that you can emotionally disengage. I think for our own mental health, for our own peace of mind, that is often necessary. But forgiveness is in a different box for me. And so I don't forgive my stepfather. I don't really forgive my mom. I'm not actively holding on to the rage or the anger either. I let that go. But to me, there's a distinction between releasing the emotions that are hurting you and actually forgiving their behavior. And I think the one is probably necessary for us to live our happiest, best lives. But the other is a choice that we get to choose whether or not to forgive. Yeah.
Yes. Yeah. I want to see that piece, please, when you're finished. Because if you're listening to this, I want you to really— if you didn't get that, Rewind and watch it and listen to it again because we're getting this amends thing all wrong. You know, because you're talking about personal sovereignty where no matter what is going on around you, I'm okay. That's emotional regulation. It's also emotional sobriety, which we do not hear from 12-step people, even though Bill W. mentions it as a post-12-step part of life, emotional sobriety. So you didn't have to go call a sponsor, you didn't have to go to a meeting, you were able to resolve it inside and weren't affected by it. And that's, that's the goal. That's amends, right?
That's the goal. Now, now look, I mean, I know a lot of people benefit from, you know, the amends thing that releases their pain, and, and I support 12 steps if If you feel that that's a good approach for you and you choose it, that's great. But the other thing is, I will say, I was in therapy during this process.
Mm-hmm.
And so I was talking about it. I was in individual therapy for the first couple years of sobriety. I looked for and found someone with expertise in trauma because I knew that was underneath my drug use. And then at 3 years, I went into group therapy with women who had trauma histories, which was like a whole nother level healing.
Mm-hmm.
So when I was going through this process, I was talking with my husband and I was talking in therapy. I wasn't doing it exclusively alone, but I was, um, figuring out how to do it in a way that worked for me. You know, one of the things I, I like to emphasize is that I view my recovery as self-empowered. Like, self-empowered recovery is a Lifering philosophy, it's a She Recovers philosophy, and others. But, um, self-empowerment doesn't mean you have to do it on your own. Part of self-empowerment is getting the help that you think you need, right? That's a self-empowerment choice. And I felt I needed professional help in order to sort of fully heal and become my true self and all that. And I was in therapy when I was working things through as to how to handle my mother.
Sure, sure. Thank you for adding that. Thank you for that. Which, which kind of goes into my next, um, well, kind of. And it's your first rehab experience. You know, um, it was, it was relatable to me, uh, because I, you know, I, I went into rehab and I had to go into the 12 steps. So back, back to the 12 steps, I don't think they're bad either, but I just think there's some parts of it that aren't explained well, which I'm getting a lot of people back saying, I don't understand this, you know, the amends part. But for, like you're saying, I, I think like what, what you did is you took what resonated. You left the rest. You went and found other alternatives and you kind of developed your own, your own way at what fit with you. Right. And but in the recovery center, it was like you have to do the 12 steps and there's no other choice. And then you weren't allowed to ask questions.
Right.
It was like, this is the way it is, period. And we face a lot of that in our work, in our treatment centers these days. Still, but I just have to say the one line, I think my favorite line in the whole book is when you found the group that resonated with you. And instead of saying, my name is Mary Beth and I'm an addict, you said, my name is Mary Beth and I'm a competent woman. I still, I get chills again.
Me too. I got chills when I read it. I got chills when I said it. That's Women for Sobriety's introduction. And yeah, that's right. That felt— look, I, I— for me, this is an example of why what works for us in recovery can change over time. For the first few months, I felt like saying, I'm Mary Beth and I'm an addict, over and over, I felt like it was actually helpful. Like I needed to sort of beat it in my brain.
Ah.
But by 5 months, 6 months, by the time I found Women for Sobriety, I didn't feel comfortable saying that anymore. I felt like I was saying it as if it was the essence of who I was. And it wasn't. Um, and so when I found Women for Sobriety, which was the first, uh, alternative to 12 steps that I found— it is the first secular peer support group in the U.S. I mean, it's, it started in the early '80s. Um, and that I'm Mary Beth and I'm a competent woman, that made me sort of sit up straight, you know, like feel tall and proud.
Yeah.
And that, um, that phrase is the essence of the program. In fact, I'm speaking at the Women for Sobriety conference in about a week from Saturday.
Oh, wow.
So I still have a relationship with them.
Nice.
But it's that more— it's more about building yourself up than being sort of the ego-busting approach of 12 steps. The founder of Women for Sobriety felt that women who were in addiction had been already beaten down so much, they needed not to be beaten down more or to have their ego busted, which is a big part of 12 steps. steps, but rather they needed to be built up. And then so the focus is on empowering yourself, on positive thinking, on releasing your past and taking control of your life. And that was the reason, and that was such a better fit for me. It was one of the options I used. I also used SMART Recovery's parent, and I used LifeRing's secular recovery's parent. And as you say, I combined it into what LifeRing would call today a personal plan. Um, but a big part of that was that idea of, um, I'm trying to build up the healthy parts of myself, try to reconnect to the positive, um, personality traits and characteristics and skills that I actually had but had lost my connection to because of my substance use.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was really about, like you were saying, like accelerating the strengths you already had. Right. Yeah, I love that. And you're— and you were atheist. You mentioned being atheist there. And you still— are you still atheist?
Yes.
An atheist. Okay.
Yeah.
So there's a— there's a lot of people who come to me, you know, that's the first thing with the 12 steps is God, higher power and all that stuff. And how do I reconcile that? Would you— if someone is an atheist and they have no other choice but to go through the 12 steps, what would you suggest for them?
Well, I say a couple things. One is that it's not like there's this hard line where all the religious people go to 12 steps and all the atheists and humanists and agnostics go to the others. There are actually atheists and agnostics that make 12 steps work for them. And there are a lot of religious and spiritual people in the other peer support groups besides 12 steps because they don't like 12 steps for reasons other than higher power. A lot of people don't like the powerless idea. They don't like the sponsor relationship. They don't, they don't like the rigidity of the 12 steps.
Mm-hmm.
So, um, the reason people choose peer support, which peer support group they want to participate in, is very varied. I couldn't find a way to make the 12 steps work for me. It wasn't just the idea of a higher power, which I didn't have and I didn't see getting, but it was also that turn your will and your life over idea and being powerless. That— I wasn't comfortable with that. I wasn't gonna do that. And I also didn't really like the focus on defects, you know? So—
That's right.
It wasn't a good fit for a lot of reasons. reasons. But some people without faith do make 12 steps work by, you know, developing a higher power that works for them. So it's, it's really— I always recommend that newcomers look at, like, just read up on the sort of the 6 major options for peer support. That's gonna be 12 steps, LifeRing, SMART, Women for Sobriety, SheRecovers, and Recovery Dharma. Those are the 6. There are other options.
Mm-hmm.
And, and so feel free to broaden the list. But I feel like if the newcomers look at those 6 choices and they look at the philosophy, but also the meeting formats are different. The meeting formats vary. And so, if you read up on those 6, I think you'll find that 1 or 2 of them feel like, you know what, I think people who think like me are going to be in that group, or I like that meeting format. And then try them out and see where you're most comfortable.
Yeah.
I mean, the good news is today there's a lot more choice. And also, if those groups all have face-to-face meetings, but if they don't have a face-to-face meeting in your town, you can participate in meetings online. And so, everybody has access to those groups now.
Yeah, yeah, you didn't. You had to really dig. You went to the libraries and dug the card catalog, right?
There was no Google. It was 1994. There was no Google. I went to the library. That's right. And I had to, I had to like call 800 numbers and send checks to PO boxes to get the books, you know. So it was the old days, but today it's a lot simpler to find the options, and that's really helpful.
Yeah, yeah, we've We've skipped over so much in this book. We don't have time to, but that, you know, your intelligence throughout the book, I just, I really, I was just, I was always rooting for you, but you, no matter what, you were smart. You were strategic, you know, and I, you know, and just got what you, you got it done, you know, whatever it was that you wanted. When you wanted to be a drug addict, you were, you know, you did it, did it big time. So I love that.
Yeah, I was really good at that. Yeah. Yeah. But I was good at nothing else. I mean, by the time I had gotten sober, I had lost my connection to like my prior academic success. I had lost my connection to being disciplined, which I was when I was in college and I worked part-time. I had, I really had forgotten who I was. And it was, I actually consciously thought about sort of who was I before the drugs? Who was I before the trauma? Because I felt like there was sort of like a natural a natural skill set, a natural personality traits, natural characteristics that if I could reconnect, um, that, that would be helpful to me and help strengthen my recovery, help me, help me get closer to my true self. And so that was part of my recovery process, was trying to reconnect to my original self and become who I was really, um, intended to be.
Yeah, yeah, I love that. That's another one I want to underscore if you're listening because I like these podcasts to be kind of a study guide, a teaching tool too, because a lot of struggling addicts are listening. But trying to— that's a good exercise and a good journal prompt, right? Is who was I before this and how can I reconnect to that? Um, I love that. And, and that's definitely something that must have really helped you along the way. Um, one thing I want Talk to— you mentioned the rapes earlier. Uh, this— I mean, this— listen, this woman has been through it. Name it, she has been through it. Um, but you know, one of the, one of the rapes occurred when you took a big risk, you know, and you jumped in this car, right? Um, and many of the men that I work with who are crystal meth addicts, there— it's, it's almost a turn-on to be risky. They're doing things that's life-threatening. They're being with people who they wouldn't normally, but it's just kind of part of the community. And there's a lot of chaos, right? But you, I wanted to read this real quick too, is this part where you actually, the chaos became in your normal life. And you said that I invited chaos to feel alive. and engaged with the world. Can you talk to that a little bit?
Yeah. I mean, the rape, I did make a mistake, but I wasn't aware of the risk when I did it. But I still did things when I was aware. For example, I moved in with a violent boyfriend and I knew he was violent. You know, it got a lot worse once I moved in with him. Surprise, surprise. Right. But because I had grown up with that sort of high-intensity emotion, you know, this, that, that Uh, the, the energy— there's, there is an energy and an adrenaline rush from, you know, chaos and, and, um, and risky situations and emotional clashes, right? There's a, there's, there's an adrenaline rush, there's a dopamine rush, and it felt normal to me. Uh, like with my current husband, who is really kind of a low-key guy, um, it took me a long time to appreciate that he really loved me because I couldn't push him to react at that intensity level. And I thought, well, if he loved me, he would respond like, you know, and, but that's that for him. He's like, if she loved me, she wouldn't be acting like this.
Yeah.
But it was a very different attitude. So when I moved in with my violent boyfriend, first of all, we both had, um, child abuse histories. So there was that trauma bond, like we understood each other, you know what I mean? I knew why he was the way he was. I felt his pain, he felt mine. So there was a connection. But also the abuse wasn't as bad as what I had at home. And so I sort of minimized it for a while. But it also did feel natural to me. It felt— it felt like— and it was a way for me to explode my anger and my frustration. When we had those clashes, there was an emotional release. And so I did make choices that put myself at risk and choices that created those kind of Escalated experiences.
Yeah, you talk about your sister in the book, and that after you were sober, she had she has was in active addiction. And that's one of the biggest questions I get is from family members. And that's actually why I started this podcast was because of my mom. Because when I got into crystal meth. She had no idea how to handle it or what to do or how to help. And some of the things she did kind of threw fuel on the fire. Can you talk about how you supported her but also kept your boundaries?
Yeah, I mean, I'll say so. So when I talk to friends and family, I always emphasize I'm friends and family too. Like everybody I know with a substance use disorder also is friends and family, especially when we get sober. There are, you know, people we love who are still using. Um, so I understand their frustration. I understand, you know, their fear. I understand their concerns, um, the— and the roller coaster of it. With my sister, who, who is sober now, but it was, you know, she lagged behind me for quite, quite a distance. Um, there were times where she would disappear. There was one time we didn't know where she was for 18 months. I mean, my mother was bringing the obituaries to look for her tattoos. You know, it was like at that level.
Wow.
So during her addiction, for example, when she would want money, you know, I wasn't like my mother with her gambling problem. My sister had a drug problem. I wasn't gonna give her cash. On the other hand, sometimes if she was getting ready to get thrown out of the motel that she was in, which is really where she was, um, I would sometimes pay the motel directly. You know what I mean? All right. I'll pay for 2 weeks or get you caught up or, you know, and she was actually fairly good about not asking me too often. I think she may have had a sense of where my line was.
Yeah.
Of what I would and wouldn't do.
Yeah.
And so I did that. But, and I also, I didn't nag her about getting sober because I didn't think it would do any good. But I certainly was an example of sobriety and I would share with her the good things in my life and how much better things were and all sort of the— to try to make it a positive attraction. And when I talk to friends and family today, I really emphasize with them that the current evidence-based approach is not that tough love approach, you know, which is negative reinforcement. The evidence-based approach is called CRAFT, Community Reinforcement and Family Training, and it's more positive reinforcement focused. And there's a really excellent book for friends and family. It's called Beyond Addiction.
Okay.
It's a book and a workbook. And Beyond Addiction is based on CRAFT techniques, but it's also broader than that. It explains to friends and family what is substance use disorder, like what's going on in the brain. It also talks about Um, you know, that there is a reason the person keeps using, that it can actually be helpful to say, what need is that drug serving for you? Let's try to figure out a different way to get that need met.
Right.
Um, and it does talk about what friends and family can do and what they can't do or shouldn't do. Like, for example, in the shouldn't do category is they shouldn't decide what treatment plan they're, they're, you know, somebody should have if they decide to get sober. If I wanna get sober, I need to be making the decisions about what treatment or plan at every level, not have it mandated on me by the family. You're going here. Like a lot of times family gets insistent that everybody has to go inpatient treatment. Not everybody needs to go inpatient treatment, and there can be valid reasons why someone doesn't wanna do that. And so it's really good. Beyond Addiction's really good about setting all of those parameters about where the family can have a positive influence and where they really have to let the individual make the choices.
Wow, I love, I love that. Thank you for that resource.
I—
that's going to help me and everybody who contacts me, um, quite a bit. Um, okay, so let me ask you something. Um, you've been on a lot of podcasts talking about your book. What are something that you wish people would ask you, or you would— or you wish I would have asked today that I missed?
Well, one thing I will say about the book is that it is a little different than most memoirs. So when I was a judge, that's when I started thinking about, could my story sort of be of use? Like, I shot meth at 17. I did not get sober till 32. It's not like it was a short run. And I became a judge. How the heck did I do this? Right? Can this story be of value? And so I started reading memoir. And one of the things that I realized is that most memoirs sort of jump into the chaos of the addiction, but they don't show where it came from.
Mm-hmm.
And so I really wanted to show in my memoir what led up to it, because I really feel like to help increase understanding and awareness that a lot of times it's trauma-based or mental health-based, and that it is actually— seems to work in the beginning, right? In the beginning, it seems to help. I mean, that's why we keep going. And then I have sort of the usual chaos of addiction, but a lot of memoirs at the end, it's sort of like, well, I went to a couple meetings and everything was great. And it's like, well, that's not how Yeah. So my memoir, um, the, the, the last third of it is my first 3 years of recovery. And so it goes into detail about, um, about my recovery, including the personal recovery plan option, which a lot, a lot more people do today. In '94, I didn't know anyone else who built their own plan, but today I do know other people who do it. And it also is the only memoir that I'm aware of that is about a secular, um, recovery foundation, that it's not a 12-step exclusive foundation. So, um, so those were some of the sort of the structural reasons. I didn't want to write a book that was already out there 22 times, um, but I thought about what did I— what did I think was important to be in a book that I wasn't seeing? And though that's the reason that it's structured the way that it is.
Yeah, you really did a good job then of the due diligence before this, right? Yeah.
Yes. Yeah. I mean, if you're gonna write in a genre, you got to read it, right? So yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's kind of also— I mean, it's, it's a— not— it reads like a novel, but it's literally a self-help book for, for addicts. It's a quit— what do they call it— a quit lit, you know, you know, quit lit, quit lit literature. And you have a recovery checklist in the end for people. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Yeah, so I, I did put some guidelines and some of my recovery ideas at the end. So part— the one of them is about if you're thinking about getting sober, here are some things to think about if you wanna build a plan. You know, like, what kind of treatment do I need? What peer support? What do I— am I in the right job? You know, what relationships do I wanna let go of or limit? You know, it's got a section about that, which is sort of a basic personal recovery plan, um, uh, uh, outline. Um, and then it has some of my recovery ideas, things that I think are helpful. Like, I really do think that we need to sort of focus on incremental improvement, um, and not like try to leap ahead too fast, which is what a lot of people run into trouble in recovery because they're trying to speed it— speed forward before they're ready. But I mean, I understand. I was 32 when I got sober. I had a Berkeley degree, good grades, and an embarrassing resume because I, you know, couldn't hold a job. And I didn't want to start where I was. I wanted to leap ahead, but I knew I couldn't do it. And so I had to be sort of realistic. Um, I also think it's important to do things like, you know, notice your, um, your accomplishments, right? I mean, my anxiety, I was I could see the negative. I could see my imperfections and what I should have done that I didn't do, or, you know, what I could have, would have, should have had. But I didn't see my progress. I had to make myself pause and look back like, you know, what have I accomplished in the first 90 days or 6 months or a year? Because if I didn't make myself look, I wouldn't see it. And seeing it helped me. It helped me feel more— it released some of my anxiety because I could see I was moving forward. But it also helped me really sort of notice that I was competent, you know, that I was able to mostly make the right decisions and move myself forward. And it also made me see that I wasn't like at the peak, like I wasn't— I was still on the upward, on the uphill. I was still progressing. I hadn't sort of tapped out. So it has ideas like that, sort of recovery concepts that I found useful and I think are a reason I have 30 years of sobriety.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So just to recap some of that, that it's important, is, is, um, making small goals, incremental steps, like you said, just setting very small goals. I mean, when you first were getting sober, you had decades of trauma, sexual trauma. You were— there were a point where you were self— you were cutting yourself.
Yes, yes.
Beaten by the stepdad, by you know the hypervigilant. I know that you've the the when you were a little girl and you had to carefully place each dish into the dishwasher because you didn't know when the next screaming or beat you know the next beat beating was going to come. I mean, you had to have felt so overwhelmed, or maybe you didn't even know the intense the magnitude of it to try to unpeel all of that. To get you to where you are. And that had to have been a matter of setting tiny goals, right?
Yeah. I mean, you're right in that I knew that my— I didn't understand my emotional damage, but I knew it was there. Like, I was surprised when my therapist diagnosed me with PTSD, but she was right. I did have PTSD. And for me, it showed up as severe anxiety. But it was also that I had broken so much of my life. I mean, when I got home, I made a list of everything I need to work on. Well, first of all, later I found out there was more. Like, it wasn't comprehensive.
Oh yeah.
But I couldn't possibly work on that whole list from the beginning.
Yeah.
It was too long. And so I had to set priorities and I decided what I'm gonna focus on in the beginning is sobriety. I knew I needed to go into mental health treatment, trying to fix my relationship with my partner, trying to work. In other words, work, like my first professional goal for work was let's not get fired. get fired again. That was the goal. And then also, I wanted to start working on my debt. And so, those were the 5 things that I said, these are my 5 priorities and everything else has to wait. And so, yeah, I set the first goal, built the first plan, carried out. Okay, now what's goal 2? What's plan 2? And incrementally like that.
Yeah.
And it sounds slow, but it's really amazing what you can accomplish in 1 or 2 years by taking that approach. Um, it also allowed me to have time to figure out who I really was, because I don't know that it does us any good in early recovery to set a 5-year plan. We don't actually know who we are, you know. We don't know what we really want or what our personality really is when we're still in early recovery. So I think especially that first year, um, it's helpful to focus on shorter-term goals.
Yeah. And then once you— like you said, once you get past maybe 5 years, things do get a little bit faster, you know. But, but wow, 30 years later, you know, look at where you are. Wow.
Yeah, how'd that happen?
Yeah. Uh, yeah. And, and the other thing you said, Mary Beth, was anchoring into the wins. Anchor into what you're— any little win is what I try to tell people, is whatever you did today, if you took a walk instead of texting your dealer, that's a win.
True.
You might have— you might use later, but that was still a win. Anchor into that. You made a choice today, right?
That's right. That's right. And look, I mean, part of the reason— I mean, look, I also want to say I didn't have perfect sobriety from day one. I used, right, 3 times in my first 5 months. And I always want to own that because most of us don't have perfect abstinence from day one. There's a small group that does. Yay for them. Okay, it wasn't me, right? Um, but, um, but But part of that is just we have to build up the skills and the practice, like changing our habits, changing the way we think, giving our brain time to heal. That takes time. And noticing, you're right, even if I said, no, I'm not going to call 5 times and the 6th time I did, well, you still didn't do it the first 5. And it can be helpful to notice that and to think about what could I do to have succeeded the 6th time as well. But part of it's just skill building. practice.
That's right. Yeah, yeah, because you're right, because I, I remember you had drugs hidden at the house. So when you got a break from rehab, it was one of the first things you did was go, go back to your— shoot up and go to your crosswords. I left the crossword puzzle at the dining room table. I was like, I could never have had the mental capacity to do a crossword when I shot up, uh, meth. But yeah. Yeah, I mean, it was like you're saying. Also, it's like, it's, you know, the old phrase that progress isn't linear, right? You know, it was up, down, up, down, but you're still moving up, right?
That's exactly right. Yes, it's, it's up, down, but it's on an escalating line. And so, and the lines aren't going to be the same in all areas of your life, you know. I mean, I will say that it took me less time to get my, um, my drug use under control than my trauma, um, because the trauma was older and more complicated. And so I I was further along in my drug recovery, um, let's say year 3 or 4 or 5, than I was in my trauma recovery. I was moving forward in my trauma recovery. I was getting better, but it was slower and it took a lot longer.
Yeah, which is why you— why the title is Trauma and Addiction, because it's 2 separate things, right?
Yes. Yeah, they're 2 different things, but they're interrelated. I mean, I tried to do therapy when I was using and I couldn't make any progress. Because, you know, the drugs were like a wall between me and my feelings. I didn't even understand my own history. You know, I needed clarity of mind to really figure out what was going on and to absorb what the therapist was telling me, you know? And so, yeah, I—
Mm-hmm.
For me, and I think for a lot of us, if we have a substance use disorder, it's hard to stay sober if your mental health isn't under reasonable control, but it's hard to get your mental health under control if you're not sober. Because, you know, you're living in chaos. And so they go together. And I always knew that if I was going to ever be happy, like truly find— well, maybe happy was beyond my imagination, but if I was going to be less miserable and have a sort of a productive life, I had to deal with both. I had to deal with both.
Yeah. Yeah. And the thing too that struck me too is that you don't pressure people to be sober and happy. You know, because people expect, oh, but you're sober now. Shouldn't you be dancing on the clouds? And, you know, but no, you're actually more miserable because you're feeling everything like a raw nerve now, you know, that you have been avoiding for all your life. And especially with the momentum of what you were dealing with, I'm sure when all that hit and you didn't have drugs to cover it up, which is one thing that you mentioned too that I related to was your irritability.
Yeah.
was a sign, you know, because, um, and I think it— I think that was maybe while you were still using it, or, or after too, maybe. But you were irritable with people after. Yeah, yeah. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Well, that was one of the things that wasn't on my initial list of things to work on that I realized over time actually should have been. And, and that was that I could be verbally aggressive if, um, if I was frustrated or angry or felt judged questioned, I could really jump down people's throats in a very mean way. And it took me a while to even see that I was doing that. And once I saw it, then it was like, oh God, again, like with my mother, I don't want to act like this. But knowing I wanted to change, for me, it's always a process. It's practice. And so it took me a while to stop doing that. And so, for example, I eventually got my words under control, but my tone and my body language might still do it. And so, it took me a while to be— I might be saying neutral words, but the look on my face or the way I'm clenching is giving a different message. And so, it took a long time to get that to maybe I'm 95% improved in that area. But yes, that's true. I was— my interpersonal skills were really poor when I got sober, and I didn't even know it. I— and I will say the other thing is sometimes when I was sort of like in the middle of the, of the process of doing better, sometimes I would get frustrated because somebody would react negatively to my behavior, and I would think, but I'm so much better.
Like, so much better. Right. You thought that was bad. That's right.
What are you complaining about? This is like way better. That was a little frustrating, but, but they were right. I mean, it wasn't good. Better and good are 2 different words, right? And so, but yeah.
Yeah, yeah. You know, a lot of us don't correlate the fact our interpersonal skills to how well our sobriety is going.
Yeah.
Um, and the same as you, this lady told me once at work, she says, you're the only person I know who can say thank you, but it feels like fuck you.
Yeah. She never met me because we would have been in the same room.
What a duo, what a duo we would have been. Yeah, but that— it kind of, you know, it, it, it caught me and I was like, you know, this is, this is right. Like, I— there's something going on, there's something missing here, there's something wrong, you know, something I need to address.
Yes, yeah, yes, exactly right. I mean, I, I realized it from other people's reactions You know, like I could see in their reaction to what I was doing that what I was doing wasn't right. And sometimes people would tell me directly. I mean, sometimes it wasn't subtle. They were saying, like with you, you know, they were telling me. And so, but yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, look, there's a lot of work. There's going to be a lot of work to do in a lot of different ways. And so, but the good news is that, you know, like now I usually don't create chaos. I usually don't treat people poorly. I'm in a— my anxiety, it comes up every once in a while, but it's very infrequent. It doesn't last as long as it did. It's not as intense. And I'm able to actually just talk about it in a calmer way. So all of these things are just so much better that today I mostly actually am happy generally. And I'll say the other thing is that I used to think that happiness was the big things like vacation or going to a party or winning an award. But for me, what I realized is happiness is really more contentment, right? It's really, you know, doing work that you mostly enjoy, having healthy relationships in your life, doing activities that make you feel like you're being of use and being of service and having fun and doing fun things. But happiness to me now is more about living a contented and fulfilled life than just about the trip to Italy.
I love that. That's the message. I love that so much. I love that so much. Wow. Oh yeah. I mean, if you out there, if you're listening, I mean, you think you've been through it and you can't overcome it. I mean, Mary Beth went to law school. She fell out of law school. She But what I love too is that when you wanted, when you were getting sober, you wanted to go back. You didn't get back into Berkeley. You got into—
Hastings. Yeah.
Yeah. But you went back, but it got you back. You know, I mean, again, it's a testament of take what you get, but work, you know, work through it. It's steps, you know, to get what you want. So, so, okay. So I'm going to put the link to the book in the show notes. Um, do you— and you have some websites? The book has a website, right? Sure.
So the website is junkietojudge.com, and the opinion pieces that you mentioned, like the Wall Street Journal and the LA Times, those are all there if anyone wants to read them. And you can message me through my website. So if anybody has a question or a comment or an opportunity to speak, you can reach me that way. I answer all messages. And then I am on, um, X/Twitter, uh, @MaryBethO_, and I don't argue with people on Twitter, but I provide like the new studies that come come out and my recovery thoughts. I'm on LinkedIn. And then my book, uh, From Junkie to Judge: One Woman's Triumph Over Trauma and Addiction, is on Amazon and all the usual sites online, but also your local bookstore has it or can get it.
Oh great, that's good. Uh, you know, we'll put all the links in there too. But yeah, X is where we met.
Yes, that's right, that's right.
And, and I don't try— I try not to fight either. There's— you mentioned earlier about giving yourself grace that sometimes you'll relapse. You know, there's one person on there who signs every tweet with one white chip. You know, they're so proud that they have one white chip, you know, and it's like, come on. But yeah, so, all right. Thank you so much for this. I really think you're making such a difference. I mean, I applaud you. I am And I'm in awe of you. I feel like I know you after reading this book. And you've really inspired me to try to read my own, but you've given me some steps today to read some more memoir and take some classes. I need to know, you know, I need to get serious about it if I'm going to do it. So, good.
All right.
Yeah.
Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed it.
Good, good, good. I'm glad. So guys, join the conversation if you want. You can join the Facebook group. It's The Aftermath. The website is aftermath.net. You can comment on there. You can comment on the YouTube version of this podcast, or you can comment on Spotify. So I'd like to hear what you have to think, or just email me. Everything's in the show notes as to get me. You can't miss me. I'm on every social media platform out there, so especially TikTok. But okay, we will see everybody next time.
