EP 1:19 Untangling Meth from Sex with David
Psychosexual therapist David Clifford explains how meth damages sexual function and what recovery looks like. Crystal meth narrows penile arteries, causing erectile dysfunction, but mindful masturbation and body meditation can rebuild it. He emphasizes patience, emotional intimacy, and using six sexual-health principles to engage safely in kinks after sobriety.
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But I think it's really important that someone feels comfortable when they speak to their, speak to their kind of psychosocial therapist, and that they feel like they're going to be able to open up and talk about sex, which can be really difficult for people to do. Like, it's, it's not something that we're generally taught very well when we—
Welcome to the Aftermath Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create a repository of resources for current and past addicts, as well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermeth. Trigger warning, this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey and you feel like you could be triggered by discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, please do not listen to this podcast. All right, now on with the show. Okay, welcome to this episode of The Aftermath. I am pleased, thrilled, excited for you and for me to have a psychotherapist on today because I have been inundated with questions around sober sex, Grindr, erectile dysfunction. How do I get out of this tanglement I have and this association with crystal meth and sex? I would say that my inbox on a daily basis gets at least 3 or 4 of those types of questions. Um, from you, the listener, but not only from you, the listener, but also you, the family member, the loved one who's trying to desperately understand what is the nuance around this drug. Why is it different than other drugs? And why is it different than other drugs when it's a gay man doing the drug? There's a lot. There's complicated nuances, and we're— Trying to help with this podcast, help people understand. So one of the reasons I started the podcast, and if you've been listening, you know that when I first approached my mother and said that I had a crystal meth addiction, she was picturing people with no teeth, shattered lives, living on the street, because that's what we knew in West Virginia. But it was a totally different scenario. And when I was involved with chemsex, how do I tell my mother this? Um, and so I want this episode to not— like I said, not only help you, the listener, heal and live a happier, better, um, sexy life, but you, the loved one, to be able to be informed so that you can adequately help your, uh, your brother, your friend, your son. your partner heal from this addiction to crystal meth and chemsex. So I just want to say before we get started, also, the questions that we're reading today were submitted by you. And if you have a question, you have a story, you have one to get something off your chest, you go to the website aftermath.net and you can submit anything you want there. It's all anonymous. There's also in the show notes, you'll see that you can send a text message send a text message if you want, um, and ask a question that you may have, and it could be read on the air, or I might just reach out to you personally and help, um, and help solve that problem for you. So with that being said, no further ado, I want to introduce our guest, David Clifford. David, can you tell us about yourself?
Hi, Dallas. Yeah, lovely to be here. Um, and yeah, a little bit about me. So I'm a psychosexual therapist. Um, so I'm based in London, I currently work in private practice, and before that was working at some of the, um, sexual health clinics in London in their psychosexual therapy teams at Dean Street, which is a well-known sexual health clinic in London, as well as Controlling Chemsex, which works with people to help them to recover from crystal meth addictions and manage crystal meth addictions. Um, so that's kind of the work professionally, um, that I I do in this space.
Great. And we met through Controlling Chemsex. And I've— if you've been listening to the podcast, you heard Ignacio. Uh, he is the, the founder and director of Controlling Chemsex. But I want to remind you that this is— that's a free service that you— I'll put the link in the show notes, but you get 8 to 10 free sessions with a key worker counselor. Um, and then you have the opportunity to possibly have access to a psychosexual therapist like David. Um, but there's on the website Controlling Chemsex, there's also a plethora of resources that you can access too. So there are free ways to get from A to B, get from where you are in your addiction to on the right track. So I just wanted to mention that too. So, well, David, the first thing we do on the podcast is a wellness check-in. So how is your well-being today?
My well-being is good today. I, about 7 months ago, actively started to try and learn how to meditate on the back of really a lot of— it's a really well-known, um, kind of resource to give to people, and a lot of people struggle to connect with it and to do it. Um, and so I thought, okay, I— the best way for me to be able to communicate to my clients about how to do it is to learn how to do it myself. myself, and really has been amazing as an experience, but also has taught me how difficult it is to do it. Like everyone says, I can't concentrate, I can't, I sit there and I, my brain's going here, there, and everywhere. And this is, I guess, my kind of realization from doing meditation is that actually, that is exactly what it is like, our brains are doing this all the time. So to expect us to kind of sit down and all of a sudden be in like this calm space, which I think people kind of expect, is just totally unrealistic. So, um, I do meditation for between 15 and 20 minutes every morning. It's the first thing I do when I get up, um, and I find that it helps me. So I, I have to put a calendar entry in my phone to remind me every day that this is what I need to do, um, and that is working for me. So that's how I start my day.
Love that, love that, love that. And just, uh, I want to plug again. He's going. He's on the podcast. He's going to be on the podcast soon. Monkey Mind Meditation, and he's actually in the UK. If you if you're on TikTok, he has a TikTok channel. But you know the the Buddhists talk about the monkey mind and calming it down. So he has a monkey puppet that was designed for to help people learn meditation. Yeah, I just wanted to plug that too. I don't know what resource you're using, but. Meditation for a crystal meth addict, I feel, is key to learning that pause, right? That pause between trigger and following it and observing yourself and separating yourself and detaching from the shame of it. In my opinion, I don't know if that's what you share or not here, but that's what I think. It's an invaluable resource. Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah, I think the most valuable thing I heard, or the most bit of helpful advice that I heard, was that if you, if for example, when you meditate, are trying to kind of connect with your breath, and, and that's kind of the focus of it. If you are able to do that one time in a meditation practice, then praise and be grateful for the one time and be thankful for that one time that you've done that. And that shows that you're able to do it, even if you were sitting there for 15 minutes and your mind was going off here, there, and everywhere. If you did it one time, this is an amazing starting point. And, and Learn to be able to praise the small things that can come, because it is a really hard practice to do, to sit there with your own thoughts. It's like a really hard thing to do. So to expect that you're going to be able to do it and suddenly be, you know, in a purely meditative state is just totally unrealistic. But it can be really transformative with continued practice.
And you've been doing it for, you said, 7 months?
I've been doing it as doing it with intent for 7 months.
Okay.
Previously, I have tried it and, and relate to all of my clients' experience of them not being able to, you know, connect with it. Um, but with continued practice, I've seen the benefits of it, but it has come from continued practice every day for me, but just for a short period of time.
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. And yeah, so if you're listening, One thing that we get in trouble with as addicts is setting a too high— setting such a high bar and trying to do too much too fast and not having patience with the process, right? Which is probably what we'll talk about today in a general sense, but something else. But, you know, I love what you said about celebrating the tiny wins. And if you do it once, connect with your breath one time, then yay, celebrate. Celebrate. Yeah, I love it. Okay, David, so I have gathered, I have collected, um, 10 questions here, and, um, these, these are the top 10 questions that I receive overall, not just about, um, sober sex, not just about crystal meth, but these are the questions that I get. So I am loving the fact that we have an expert here, and, um, this is going to be so valuable for for our listeners. So number 1, when first getting sober, how do I even begin approaching sober sex?
Yeah, I think with, with this question and all of them, it's a great question. Um, they're such big questions, really. Um, and I think you mentioned the word patience, um, just a moment ago. And that really is, I guess, one of the key components to it is to really be patient with yourself, um, and to focus on, um, kind of committing and prioritizing your sobriety, um, focus on kind of building a support network around you. And one of the main things, um, in terms of kind of approaching sex is kind of learning and rediscovering how to be intimate with another person, another man. And that part can take some time to, to really learn how to do that. Like, looking at how you're dating, like, how were you dating previously, um, when you were using crystal meth? Well, it would probably need to change in terms of how you're dating now, in terms of being able to kind of connect with, um, with a man and be intimate with a man. Um, So yeah, so there's some of the things in terms of starting points, um, in terms of approaching, um, sober sex, but really is to slow it down in terms of the expectation of what it is that you're, um, wanting to, wanting to do. Um, and obviously everyone's different in terms of where they're at. Like, for some people that are experiencing kind of sexual function issues, um, then really, really slowing it down and potentially even removing the expectation of sex in the first instance can be really important to do. But there's a big piece around kind of learning how to be intimate with another person without the use of drugs, because often people will have learned to be intimate and have kind of more lustful types of relationships with someone else. with the use of drugs. So removing that and learning how to be emotionally intimate and also emotionally vulnerable with someone else is a kind of process, and it really requires patience to, um, to be able to do that.
Yeah, yeah, I have a thousand questions. I don't want to jump ahead to, um, to what we're talking about here, but One thing that comes to mind is the question that I get is the lustful part. And, you know, many of, many of the guys who are on this drug feel, and they, they assert that they're really into this anonymous group, you know, like risky behavior. Um, it's a turn-on for them for one way or the other. And I, I think that what I'm seeing is they're, they're wondering if they have to give that up completely. What do you think about that? What do you say?
I guess it is slightly difficult to give a blanket answer.
Sure. Sure.
Because, um, I guess it's ultimately, it's, is this sexual activity something that is triggering you ultimately? to use and to relapse. So, and, and to kind of understand the turn-on better. So what is it about it that you, that you like? And are there components of it that are triggering for you? And if there's a component that's triggering for you, then maybe some abstinence needs to be kind of in place around that. Um, and kind of looking at it in terms of, okay, well, how can we, um, make it kind of a consensual, safe experience for you. But so it doesn't necessarily need to be removed if it's something that, you know, that someone enjoys. But I guess it's more understanding a bit more about, okay, what is it that you're getting from this? And how is this in that, you know, embarking on the kind of group sex or anonymous sex or in a cruising ground, how is that making you feel?
Hmm.
what are kind of the emotions that are coming up for you? Are you feeling guilty? Are you feeling shame? Are you feeling joyful? Like, what's— what is it that's going on? And do you need to kind of look at a different way to explore it? Or actually, is it kind of meeting certain needs that, that you're able to engage with in a kind of healthy, safe way? Yeah.
Yeah. I love this. I just want to I'm going to stop and underscore things once in a while, but this is important to getting back in touch and connecting with your body and knowing how you feel is what, you know, just want to underscore what David's saying is afterwards, really connect in. Like, ask yourself, where, how does this feel inside me? Where is it affecting me? And if it doesn't feel good, You know, then there's something that needs to be addressed here. So it is like David saying, it's hard to say yes or no, but it's all in you getting back in touch with your body and listening to it. Right.
And I guess, does it align with your values? Like, what are your values? Do you even know what your values are? But what are they? Um, and, and really, like you say, connecting with how it is that it's making you feel. I think that's the kind of important aspect, um, an important aspect to it.
I love the values. Yeah, establishing what your values are in the first place is important, right?
And there's probably a lot of work to do around that. Like, do you know, do we even know what they are?
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. Okay, number 2, which you kind of alluded to already: after meth, I'm experiencing erectile dysfunction. Unless I watch porn. What should be some beginning steps for untangling my sexual function with pornography? This is a big one.
It is a big one. Um, an erection— erectile dysfunction is something that is very common around crystal meth. Like, that one of the effects of taking crystal meth is that it narrows the arteries. Um, so it restricts the amount of blood that goes to the penis, and people often take Viagra, sildenafil, tadalafil, um, to compensate for it. But often with kind of repeated use, they stop working as well, and then people often might kind of change their sexual identity. Um, some people may— that may have been kind of more top active partners might then kind of become bottom partners. purely because of the kind of dysfunction that can happen from continued meth use. So it is— erectile issues is something that's quite common, and it is a direct result of the drug and the effects of the drug. And untangling that can take a little bit of time to kind of understand. But I think one of— a good question to ask yourself is what, if anything, is arousing for you when you're not looking at porn? Um, and kind of spending some time thinking about that as well, because the initial answer might be, oh, nothing, I need to have porn to, to, to feel aroused. But actually, quite often you'll find that there are things, or there might be, um, yeah, things that someone might have forgotten about that actually you might be able to kind of get them to connect with. Um, so one of the things that we know is that when something is in our erotic mind, we're not able to remove it, but we can expand on our kind of erotic mind, so we can build on it. Um, so if someone's kind of totally reliant on pornography I think it's important to kind of not pathologize pornography, um, and kind of maybe look at kind of a gradual porn reduction program focusing on kind of mindful masturbation, potentially, if that was something that seemed appropriate. And mindful masturbation, for anyone that doesn't know, is, is really kind of when you're masturbating, focusing on the sensation of your hand on your penis, um, and getting back in touch with the feeling and the sensation on your body, um, which can often be something that's missed, certainly if you're kind of used to kind of going to kind of more extreme psychological turn-ons, um, that kind of move away from anything that's kind of physical and kind of based on sensations. Um, so, but, and kind of gradually, yeah, kind of reducing the amount of porn that you might be looking at. Um, And another thing that I think is, is kind of helpful is to really become comfortable with getting and losing an erection and to remove the importance and the weight that's put on having an erection in the first place. And then kind of using potentially kind of self-focus type interventions to find areas of your body that might be more sensitive to touch. But again, as with everything, Really being patient with this as well, um, and just understanding the porn that you're watching as well. And is the porn that you're watching, is that in itself something that's triggering for you, um, or, or, or not? Um, yeah.
Yeah, I, I think everything you've mentioned here is an undertone of patience. Right. This takes time.
It takes time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right. Yeah. And it's, it's a, it's a gradual thing. It's kind of like losing and gaining weight. You know, it's so easy to gain weight, but it takes consistency, persistence, time, patience to lose it. You know, it's kind of the same, kind of the same principles here. I like this. I like that you brought up conscious masturbation. Um, because I will tell you as listeners, and, and with you too, is that when I started to practice that, I had huge emotional releases too. Like, I would start crying even because I, I didn't— it was this— I had never really touched, felt that, you know, from a partner or from myself, this like connection to myself. And it would release these emotions that I had built up through my meth use of feeling rejected, or, you know, just trying to get to the— desperately trying to get to that hard-on, you know, or, or whatever. Um, there was a lot of shame and a lot of anger at myself, and these things released when I started to slow down and really dig. touching myself and figuring out what felt good.
Yeah. And it's a really important part, certainly, is kind of, kind of starting to be able to connect with your body much more. And it is often the first time that someone's kind of thought about it in that way. But it can be a really kind of transformational experience with kind of continued patient practice as well. So, so yeah, something to think about.
Yeah, I love that. All right. Okay, you want to do number 3 here?
Yep.
Um, I am scared to death of intimacy, which is why I have enjoyed chemsex so much. Where do I begin in terms of understanding what I want, how to approach men sober, and getting over the fear? So I just want to add a note to this. This is the conglomeration of a lot of Uh, notes that I received, and it's many times older men, um, who— they're, they're just, they're scared to death of what intimacy means, and they just don't— you know, there, there's such a shame and inadequacy that they still carry because that's what got them into this in the first place, because chems take all that away. Um, and so they've, you know, they've took the easy— not the easy route, but they've bypassed working on the, the, uh, the insecurities that they have. Um, and so now they're stuck with, well, what do I do? I don't even know where to start. So that's where that question came from.
Yeah, it's, it's really common as well, um, in terms of the fear of intimacy, um, that, that, that comes. And like you say, being one of the things that crystal meth artificially gives people is this kind of sense of community.
Yes.
That's really important to us as humans, that we have a kind of a community around us. But what people find when they move away from the chem community is that that community is not there for them anymore. So then in terms of creating and building a new community, often for men in their kind of 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, um, is, is you're kind of stuck often with some of the skills that maybe, um, you don't necessarily have in terms of, or not aware that you have, um, in terms of being able to kind of start new friendships and start new, you know, and to kind of be able to expand your community. But so I guess one of the things that will often do is, is kind of, um, look at kind of maybe friendships and look at kind of gradual exposure to intimacy, um, in a non-sexual setting in the first instance, um, to see how kind of with kind of non-sexual physical intimacy as well, like how, how can people kind of engage in, um, acts of intimacy with people, but in a kind of non-sexual way as well. Um, and there's some, some kind of groups out there, even kind of around hugging, and there's kind of hugging workshops and groups out there as well that just start to kind of, in a non-threatening way, start to expose you to, um, you know, to being able to be intimate with someone. And ultimately able to be vulnerable with someone, which is often one of the things that is— it can be quite difficult to some— with someone to kind of, yeah, kind of expose yourself to that and sit with that and get used to that feeling as well. Yeah. So finding someone, even, you know, finding someone to be able to be intimate with in a, in a non-sexual way, And I guess, you know, if you're, if you're kind of looking to meet someone, kind of setting boundaries that kind of help to feel safe in the first instance as well. Um, but it's definitely, it's something that takes time in terms of being able to kind of start approaching men sober. Um, which is, is, you know, you've been given this, ultimately been taking this drug that kind of has given you access to you know, being able to experience kind of more the lust element of it, um, and that side, but actually being able to kind of build more emotional connections based on vulnerability, um, you know, can take a bit of time to, um, to create.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love this artificial sense of community. I want— if you're listening to this and you're in the, in the game, in the community, in the, the meth game, I want you to really, really let that sink in because this is a big inhibitor for so many of you guys that talk to me about you don't want to lose your friends. And I'm putting air quotes here. Um, you don't want to lose your friends, or I'm really, I really want this guy to get sober, you know, and I really care about him and we've been through a lot. When you do crystal meth with another person for 24 hours, it is like you've been with them for 6 months. There is so much bonding, all the chemicals that come out, you know, that bond you two. And there's something about crystal meth that you talk, you know, I mean, you're going to know everything there is to know about that person, and you're going to know everything that they want sexually. And that couldn't be any more intimate. You know, that's the most intimate knowledge, vulnerable knowledge you're going to know about somebody is what they want sexually. And so you get— do get this artificial sense of bonding, and, and then you hold on to that in a— and, and you put off your own sobriety in hopes that they're going to get sober when they're not asking to get sober. Um, and, and you're, you're putting your— all of your anchors into this artificial sense of community And really, if you want to be there for them, you have to block them, you have to disconnect and take care of yourself first. It's like putting on your own, you know, face mask, life mask, if the plane's going down, take care of yourself first, get yourself in a stronger place, then maybe you can help them later. Sorry, I had to go off on that.
Yeah. And I guess what's the alternative? The alternative is to stay using and obviously people start to experience more and more detrimental impacts after kind of from prolonged exposure and use of crystal meth, like it is one of the more kind of destructive drugs that, that a lot of people will start to experience kind of significant problems in kind of response to it. So, and you're right, you know, people do experience this kind of sense of connection and community with someone. And ultimately, you know, when you take crystal meth, your brain has been flooded with dopamine. And it's, you know, the kind of reward center of the brain is being flooded. So, you know, even the difference from, you know, non-sex off of crystal meth and sex on crystal meth, I think the dopamine release from non— from sex without drugs is 200 units, and it's 1,100 units of dopamine on from taking Crystal meth, so it's huge. Your brain has been flooded with with dopamine, so the connections that you have, they are based upon this huge dopamine hit that you've that you've got in your brain, which is really distorting things for you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you're like me and you had lived your life searching for community, searching for acceptance in a group, you didn't find it in the mainstream gay community, I thought I had hit the jackpot. I had found my club, you know. I had found a community that was a secret community, so it felt risky and fun. But also, I was automatically accepted because I'd have a baggie in my pocket. I could go anywhere, you know. I would be— anybody would open their door for me. And so, but it's such a false sense of community, right? Because, you know, more often than not, people— these guys are going to choose the drug over you anyway. Um, so anyway, thank you for that. And there was something else that I missed there, but that I was going to highlight, but building friendships, uh, in a non-sexual manner. And yeah, acts of intimacy with friends can be just as rewarding, uh, for me these days than, um, than a partner, which I don't have one. Maybe I'm, maybe I'm delusional, but really being intimate with somebody on a, on a friendship level and not expecting anything physical from that, that's, that's special, I think. Okay, let's see. Number 4, should I place strict boundaries in place, uh, when dating around the length of time or dates we have before having sex? Okay, that— I typed that out incorrectly, but, but basically they're asking, should they have boundaries around, okay, if I date I'm not going to have sex for after 3 dates. Um, yeah, that's a, that's a— or should I expect to not have sober sex for the first year? And these are some questions that I get.
Yeah, and it is very individual. Um, I think one of the things that's important is, is building emotional intimacy and trust with someone, um, and to kind of agree what seems like a good, good boundary in relation to the length of time that you date before having sex. And it obviously depends what it is that's going on for someone. you know, is the type of sex that they were having, um, previously, you know, are they triggered if they start to do that, or are they kind of experiencing erection issues? Um, in which case, we just encourage, like, someone to really slow down and look at how it is they're dating to make sure that that meets their needs. I think quite often in gay culture, there's kind of this expectation that you should have sex, you know, as soon as you meet someone, and that you should, you know, be able to get an erection as soon as you meet someone. But actually, for a lot of people, Um, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't work like that. Actually being able to kind of have that psychological, um, emotional connection with someone, which takes— sometimes takes a bit of time to, to build, then actually they need that in order to, um, to, to kind of be able to feel comfortable with someone. And it is learning new skills. Like, if you're learning to be emotionally intimate with someone and that isn't something that you've kind of previously done because you've just been used to kind of hooking up with people and kind of going around to the house taking drugs and, and kind of being able able to get into it very quickly without that, without that emotional space. It's something new that you're learning to do. So really to kind of find a place with that that feels comfortable and feels, you know, like, like it works for you. I think it's hard to put a precise, you know, you need to have 10 dates with someone and then you can kiss them and then, you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't work like that in reality. So there is an element of kind of, I think, with any boundary of being fluid to some extent, rather than kind of making yourself feel bad if you do kind of do something with someone sooner. But I guess it just depends what it is that's going on for someone. And, um, yeah, like I mentioned a few times, how triggering some of these things might be, and do you just need to kind of spend some time, um, just working on emotional connection and intimacy?
Yeah, yeah. Hey, Dallas here. Are you tired of stacking up the white chips? 12 steps hasn't worked for you? Been to treatment several times? Feeling pretty hopeless? You're asking yourself, will I ever be able to get past relapse? Will I ever be able to string together a substantial amount of sober time? I'm here to tell you that oftentimes the answer to relapse is a slight shift in perception. Actually, any growth in life— spiritual, mental, emotional— it's one perception shift after the other. I'm giving away my free 28-day Reframing Relapse online course to help you shift your perceptions about your addiction your relapse and yourself. This 28-day program has daily journal prompts, guided meditations, and 2 free 30-minute coaching sessions with yours truly. At the end of this 28 days, you will look at relapse through a different lens and change the course of your addiction. cycle. I promise you that. I could give your money back, but I'm not charging you anything. If you're interested, the link will be in the show notes, and I look forward to seeing you there. It's interesting, when I first started to date, yeah, I was— oh, I— here's another question before I get into that, um, or maybe I won't get into that. Many of, many of my clients and many of the people that come to me are involved in a 12-step program and they're told to wait a year before they date. Um, what do you think about that? Is that still kind of something that is, um, subjective to the person, you know, related to them in their individual case, or what?
I understand why it's suggested. Um, And a lot of people benefit from different 12-step programs through Crystal Meth Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous. So people do benefit from, from them. I think one of the things that can be difficult, um, is if someone doesn't stick to that, the effect on them by not sticking to it, um, So I kind of feel like I'm probably slightly less rigid in my opinion on it. But like I said, I do understand why it's there and the effect of crystal meth and how long it can take for some of the effects of crystal meth to start to be able to be kind of mean that you can embark in kind of dating and sex and things like that in a slightly more healthy way. Like, it can be difficult when, you know, often sometimes times, you know, someone might be kind of replacing, um, cross-addictions. So you go from, you know, taking crystal meth and then moving to alcohol, and, and kind of that process might, might be happening kind of from a compulsive sexual behavior, um, lens. So I understand why it's there. Um, I just don't think it needs to be quite as rigid as that for everyone. Like, to say everyone needs to spend 12 months not dating, well, you know, I'm aware of people that after 6 months have, um, dated and then with kind of a partner they're still with, um, can bring up certain nuances and, and, um, things that that relationship may need to kind of be working through when you're working with someone that's kind of, you know, in, in recovery from an addiction. Um, but like I said, I do understand why it's there. as a— and why they suggest that. Um, but I think I'm just always cautious of, of anything being there that, um, ends up making someone feel like they've, you know, done something else that they shouldn't have done. Um, and that's, I guess, one of the challenges that with some of those 12-step programs is that they can be slightly pathologizing for people.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you for that. Thank you for that. Thank you for saying that. Um, it's nice to hear it from someone else, probably for the listeners, uh, because I'm all about self-empowered recovery, you know, and tuning into what's right for you, um, instead of adding another undue layer of shame onto what your life right now, right?
Yeah. And they don't work for everyone. For some people, those, those groups really don't work and the principles of them don't work very well. Um, But like I said, for some people they do, and that's where you know having a one size fits all just doesn't. In my eyes, doesn't doesn't work, especially when you're kind of potentially adding shame to someone for something as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, number five: Can I pursue my kinks and fantasies while sober? I think you may have already answered this really. And how do I approach this without getting triggered? So I do get a lot of questions of you know I'm really still into leather. Um, I'm into bondage, I'm into public cam, all this stuff that they did, um, while they were on, on crystal meth. But some of them were into it before, some of them got into it during, but they still want to pursue it after, um, but in a, in a safe way. What would you suggest there?
Um, so I guess a good starting point is to ask the question, what turns me on? when I'm not high? So what does that look like for you? And then how do the kinks and fantasies— so with, with those, how, what is the— what are they? What are the ingredients of them? What are the components of them? And are there components that are triggering for you? Are there components that actually aren't triggering for you? And Um, so it's difficult to be like, you know, to say, yeah, you should pursue them, or no, you shouldn't pursue them, because there are instances. And generally, I'd say, you know, that we should be able to pursue the kinks and fantasies and fetishes that we like. There is a period of time that, um, from when someone stops using that actually the use, the engagement in those kinks or fantasies may actually be doing harm and reinforcing kind of negative beliefs about oneself, which is why it's good to understand how engaging in kinks and fantasies, how you feel about it, and what are kind of the emotions that are coming up for you when you're, when you're engaging with them and afterwards, and potentially working through that. But I think in terms of longer term, it's certainly— you're certainly able to engage in all the kinks and, and, you know, that you want. It's just finding a kind of consensual, safe way to, to engage in them. And we'll often with clients kind of tap into the 6 sexual health principles, which are consent, non-exploitation, prevention of STIs and HIV, honesty, shared values, and pleasure. So do— are the kinks and fantasies and fetishes that you're looking to engage in, do they meet these sexual health principles? And if they don't meet these sexual health principles, how can we work with them to mean that they can meet the sex— those sexual health principles? So because sometimes people might have— and then yeah, sometimes people might have kinks that might breach one or other of those boundaries. So it's looking at how you can kind of use that as a framework to allow you to kind of engage in those in a kind of safer way.
Thank you for that. So, consensual, safe, non-exploitation, preventing of STIs and HIV, honesty— now I can't read my writing.
Mutual pleasure.
Mutual pleasure.
Yeah. So consent is the first one. Yeah.
Oh, okay. Gotcha.
Yeah.
Consensual consent. Okay.
Yeah.
Okay. Mutual pleasure. Okay. Thank you for that. It's a good checklist to have. Um, for sure. And it, and again, I feel like many of you that are asking these questions are coming at it from a this or that. standpoint. And we do that as addicts, that it's all or nothing, right? In that I can either have kinks or I can't have kinks. But it can be this and that, in that you can have kinks under this umbrella. And by the way, we have an episode coming up with a couple of guys from— that have a sober kink group that they meet every week or so long or whatever on Zoom, and they practice sober kinks. So there's also that option. that are out there too. So yeah.
And there's lots of sober groups that meet around all sorts of different things, even kind of masturbation groups as well that might meet as well, that are away outside of kinks as well as the different kink groups. And actually, learning how to engage in your kinks in a sober way is a— is something that can be quite enlightening to kind of be part of as well and allow you to experience them in a, yeah, in a way outside of drugs. But I think it's always important to be aware of what is the drug doing to your body. And when you've got a drug that is, is releasing so much dopamine into your brain, to kind of compare that with non-sober sex, like, it's just very different. It's not that it's better or not that it's worse, but it is different. And often people kind of think that, okay, if I don't use drugs, am I gonna have rubbish sex? But it's more about it being different, and it's gonna feel different. And you're gonna have to, you know, have to learn to kind of be a bit more vulnerable as well, and actually be able to communicate around your kinks in a sober way. Like, it's a very different experience than communicating about them when you're high. So That can be kind of part of the process of learning how to be vulnerable and how to communicate with someone around some of the things that you might be interested in sexually.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. And back to this, this and that. I had a TikTok live last night, and there was a guy that came on there and said, "You know, I've been sober for three years, but no sex because I can't have." You know, he can't have the sober sex because it can't be as fun. You know, so it's that it's still that this or that. But like you're saying, it may not be the same; it's just different.
It's it seems like to me it's a mindset shift too that has to happen in this process, and maybe a change of expectations as well, which is why kind of connecting with our bodies and the sensation of our body. Without the expectation of there being an erection involved as well, um, is kind of— can be kind of part of that process.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can, I can relate to that one. Okay, number 6: my partner and I haven't had sex in years because of my chemsex use. This is, this is common. I mean, I'm getting this. There are so many couples out there where one partner is having chemsex and the other either doesn't know it or just allowing it, um, will we be able to repair the damage done? That's kind of a broad question. And how can I work through the shame so that we can approach sex again? Which I think that the latter of that is probably the— where we should focus on.
Yeah, um, I think one of the things that's really important during that process is, is, is going through the process of rebuilding trust, because often the trust would have been broken on, um, a significant level. Um, so you'll often be dealing with, you know, potentially multiple breaches of trust and multiple breaches of, you know, depending on what the relationship structure might be as well. Um, and someone having lied repeatedly about the kind of chem use and the people that they've had sex with and so on. And the amount of time that it takes to rebuild the trust can be an— a, you know, there's no kind of rule book on how long that needs to be. And I think often the person who is in recovery can think that because they've been honest for 1 week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 4 weeks, whatever it is, that their past partner should automatically trust them again.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and actually they're doing this work and, you know, why isn't their partner trusting them? But if you think about it, if someone breaches your trust and breaches it again and again, You need to keep reinforcing the, the message that they can trust you. And this is a real, real kind of journey that you need to commit to going on, that you're going to need to reassure your partner, um, for as long as they need to be reassured, and in the way that they communicate that they want to be reassured as well. And that can take time. Um, it's like rebuilding any, you know, any, any time the trust is breached, that, that, that process needs to happen. And within, you know, when there's been kind of chemsex involved, um, there's often multiple layers of trust that's been breached. Um, and so until that work is done, it can be difficult sometimes to kind of work on rebuilding the intimacy.
Yeah.
Um, side of it. So working on the communication, working on rebuilding the trust, but But, you know, signing up to the fact that, okay, you're going to need to do this potentially for a long time for your partner to kind of feel like they, they trust you and for them to feel safe and secure in the relationship as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's work, right?
It's work.
Yeah, yeah.
And it can be rewarding and it's really possible to, to do it. Um, and I've, you know, seen couples that, that have done it, um, and they've ended up being stronger as a result of it, and they ended up actually getting to know each other much better as a result of it, um, and having more understanding and awareness of both themselves and, and their partner. Um, so it can be really rewarding work, um, but it doesn't happen with you being honest for 2 weeks, um, and then expecting your partner to forget about everything that's happened, um, you know, for the previous however long that's been. Um, and that's the kind of side of things that sometimes, in terms of the person that's in recovery, well, it's amazing that they've, you know, spent 2 weeks and being honest and, and so on, that actually they need to keep doing that. And that's tiring. It's, you know, it's also a commitment for them to, to agree to do that.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I, I just want to pause for a second there and say thank you for the work you're doing. Because it cannot be for the faint of heart. You're doing, you're doing the work out there. I just want to say thank you for that.
With couples work, I think sometimes there's, I think things like that are often misunderstood like that, in terms of the, you know, certainly the work around rebuilding trust and how long that takes. Like, it's quite painful sometimes to see the hurt that's been caused. And it takes time to rebuild that.
Yeah. Yes. Time. Patience. There's the theme here, guys. Patience, persistence, consistency, time. Okay. Um, all righty. So number 8, I think we've mentioned, we've answered. Um, no, number 7, we've answered. Turn-ons is anonymous and sneaky public sex. Is this a shame trauma? Okay. We've answered that. Sober sex is never going to be fun. How can I settle for less? You don't have to settle for less. We've already answered that. Would you suggest a time of abstinence once getting sober? We've answered that too. Wow, we went through these here. And then number 10 is, what should I expect if I don't— I really, I was repetitive on these questions, weren't I? What should I expect if I were to schedule an appointment with a psychosexual therapist?
Okay, so I guess generally what a psychosexual therapist would do, I guess it's not that different from a general psychotherapist. But I guess with psychosexual therapy, we're specifically looking at kind of the sexual components that— or the sexual issues that you're experiencing at that moment, or the relational issues that you're experiencing. So generally, we kind of carry out an assessment, find out what it is that's going on. And for me, it's really identifying what the goals are, like, what are you looking to work towards and what's your kind of ideal outcome that you'd like to have at the back end of it.
Yeah.
So I think one of the things that's really great about working with a sex therapist is that you'll generally have someone who's very open, non-judgmental. And I think it's really important that you feel really comfortable with your therapist so you can, you know, talk to them about some of the, you know, even if it's kind of kinks or fetishes or maybe darker, the darker side of some of these these components as well, and that you feel able and comfortable to talk about that and explore that with your therapist. So, so yeah, I mean, we deal with lots of different issues. So you kind of, as a therapist, become really used to talking about sex and relationships and erections and vaginas and, and, you know, you know, all the different kind of sexual interests that someone has. But I think it's really important that someone feels comfortable when they speak to their, speak to their kind of psychosocial therapist, and that they feel like they're going to be able to open up and talk about sex, which can be really difficult for people to do. Like, it's, it's not something that we're generally taught very well when we grow up. So being able to do it can kind of bring up the same shame that someone might experience from, you know, having kept it to themselves and not spoken about sexual interests that they have, may experience that same feeling when they first start to talk to a therapist, but actually the communication and the way that your therapist responds to you is really important. So hopefully all psychosexual therapists are the same, and we all kind of work to create a kind of safe, open, non-judgmental space where people can bring really whatever they want, um, to that space. And that's certainly what I try to kind of allow, is that there's a space that someone can really say whatever it is that they want about whatever topic it is that they want. And, you know, that we'll be able to kind of explore that without there being any kind of judgment and kind of also helping to work through the shame that someone might be experiencing around some of the kinks. And the reality is, whatever it is that's going on for you, probably heard something a lot more, or a lot more kind of extreme, and you probably won't be the only person experiencing that. And actually, even for a lot of, you know, issues out there, certainly you know, erection issues is something that kind of comes up a lot in my kind of private practice. It's something that is so common, like really, like, you know, most men will have experienced it. Kind of, I think the research suggests at least half of men have experienced erection issues. So really, if you go into any bar, 50% of people will have experienced it at one point or another. And as we know, with any research about anything to do with male sexual function, whether it's our penis size or how long we last in bed or you know, anything else. They, they tend to be, you know, things around our stature tend to be overrepresented, and I'd imagine that something around kind of erection issues actually is something that's underreported quite often. So really helping to normalize the experience for people as well, um, with something that people just don't talk about. People don't go to the pub, for example, and start generally talking about, you know, that they struggle to get an erection.
Yesterday.
But actually, you know, most of the time when kind of for me as a therapist, when you kind of start exploring that, there's often reasons as to why that happened. And people kind of go to thinking that there's something wrong with them, where it's actually often the environment or whatever it is that was, you know, how psychologically aroused they were, how present they felt, things like that can often kind of explain what was going on for them. But people kind of move into kind of catastrophization Mode with that. So I guess helping to normalize things as well can be can be kind of part of the process.
Yeah, yeah. So you know, thank I really I'm really grateful for therapists like you who are out there because I also hear a lot of horror stories of crystal men gay men getting over this drug and they go to a just a therapist who doesn't really hasn't had the experience or or has helped other gay men. And then they mention something like drinking piss, you know, or something, something like that. And the reaction instantly from the therapist just shuts off any more trust from, from the client because they're already feeling shameful about it. And it doesn't feel like a safe space. And, and if you thought that was bad, you know, what else, you know, what else can I whip? You know, I, I— that's not even anything, um, that I And so, you know, it just shuts down that whole relationship with your therapist and adds another layer of shame to what they're already feeling. So I'm appreciative of men like you out there who are, who are opening themselves up and helping.
And I think all therapists really need to be aware of how their reaction, even subtle reactions in the— in that they make, how impactful they can be and how that can really shut someone off from actually being authentic and being able to tell you what's actually going on for them. Um, so actually being able to talk about sex really, I think, is— it should be every therapist's, um, kind of goal to be able to get better at doing that because it's such a fundamental part of kind of human existence that to have therapy and therapists that are so uncomfortable to talk about it, um, actually is doing a disservice to, to clients.
So, um, yeah, yeah, yes, I agree, I agree. Um, okay, so to wrap up here, what have I not asked you that you maybe wish I had have asked, or is there something that we haven't covered that you want to mention?
Um, I feel like we've had a good round of questions. Okay, it's covered a lot. There's certainly nothing that came to mind that I thought, oh, we haven't included that. I certainly think the word patience that's come up quite a bit in this podcast is something that really needs to apply to, to everyone in their kind of recovery and kind of starting to engage in sex, or kind of sober sex. But, and I think with the patience really does come an opportunity to have a sex life, um, that is free from drugs. And it is possible, and people do achieve this, but it does take time. Um, and this is the thing that I think, you know, if there's one message that people can kind of hear is that it's possible. Be patient, be kind to yourself. Um, first of all, start with kind of empathy and kindness to yourself and learn to kind of rebuild that side of things. And with rebuilding that side of things, can also kind of then help you to kind of empathize with other people better. But really starting with yourself like that is, is kind of a good starting point.
Yes, thank you. Yeah. And, you know, it's sad. I see some men thinking that this is my punishment. This is my penance for what I did, you know. And that's just such a horrible an unhealthy place to be. Um, so yeah, thank you for that. Thank you for adding that. So I just want to say thank you for taking time, um, for us on this show. I really do appreciate it. Um, if you're listening and you found value in this information, then please pass, pass it on. Rate, review the podcast, share it, send it out, because this is the, this is the meat and potatoes of what gay men need to be hearing who really want to experience recovery after this drug. This is always, this is always number one, the question, the inhibition, the, the barrier, the fear, you know, is just sober sex, sober sex, and the rest of that we talked about today. So I want you to help me get this podcast in front of the people who need to hear it. Um, share it with your network, uh, share it with your 12-step groups, uh, share it with friends and family. I would greatly appreciate it. So, David, thank you again. And, um, all right, guys, we will see you next week.
