EP 1:23 Crystal Meth: The New AIDS Crisis? With Dr. David Fawcett and Terrence Crawford

The shame piece is so central to this whole discussion, right? Because I think it's shame that really was there in the first place that led toward an inclination to use. Because these drugs, especially meth, just helps you just step out of your life, all your problems, all your concerns, into this like fantasy world bubble. You know, it's a bubble, right?

Yeah.

And, and disconnect from all that stuff. And so I think one of the things people often disconnect from is shame and internalized homophobia and just all that stuff. And so I think it's there at the core.

Welcome to the After Meth Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create a repository of resources for current and past addicts, as well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermath. Trigger warning, this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey and you feel like you could be triggered by discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, Please do not listen to this podcast. All right, now on with the show. Hey there, Dallas here.

Before we get into this very, very good podcast, um, I want to tell you a little story, and I'll make it quick. Uh, when I first started using, I hit up a torso square on the Grindr grid and asked if he partied. He didn't answer, but I immediately got a text Uh, from a close friend. We both discovered that we partied, um, in secret. We started a friendship, um, and that's what it was. It wasn't sex-based. It was very much, uh, a buddy-based fun friendship in the beginning. Um, we did use a lot of drugs together, but we laughed and we made fun of people on Grindr and we acted Skits out, and we did some lip-syncing, um, to songs, and we just had a good time. We would go on trips together. We would call them tweakends, and we would go for a weekend and do a lot of drugs and see a lot of men. Well, eventually, um, I started noticing some big differences in him, and it started with being accused of stealing his drugs one night, and then it snowballed from there. One day when I came home from work—

this was before I lost it all—

I came home from work and he was on my back patio. When I came on the back patio, he stood up and we were looking eye to eye, and there was nothing left in him. There was no life. There was no light. There was no soul. He went on to accuse me of jailbreaking, which at the time I had no idea what that meant. Jailbreaking his phone, jailbreaking his laptop. He told me he had alerted the police. I had stolen his confidential information, money out of his account, all sorts of things. He was very angry, um, very out of his mind, and I ended up I called the police and had him removed that day. This is an example of why we are calling the crystal meth epidemic among men who have sex with men the next AIDS crisis. It's not that we're losing physical lives, which we are, but this drug removes the life out of gay men. But What I've seen is that gay men completely lose who they are. Some of them never come back. Some of them remain in psychosis. They remain in paranoia and in fear. They're never the same. We have to do something about this. This gay community. Is not talking about what is happening before our eyes. If you are in the LGBTQ community and you have influence, you're a leader, people look to you, you need to say something about this. Take a stand. How did I know my friend was using Grindr? These geosocial dating apps like Grindr, Scruff, Sniffies, on and on and on—they are doing absolutely nothing about this. Sure, there's some words like you can't use a capital T or or whatever that they've blocked. They've put some a few little. regulations in just to say they did something. But how about some ads instead of some stupid app game ad on Grindr? How about an ad about controlling chemsex? How about an ad about warning about the dangers of chemsex, or at least putting a help number, something? But no, they're sitting in LA collecting billions of dollars, profiting off of men who are insecure, living in shame, dealing with internalized homophobia, and they get stuck scrolling that damn app. We need to start a dialogue. This podcast is my contribution to get this started, and I hope you'll join me.

I don't know what can be done.

I don't know if it would even help to write your representative, but at least let's start talking about it. Let's start admitting that everywhere on this planet you can get on Grindr and find a party. I can open up Grindr right now and be using meth within the hour. It's not the app's fault, I get that, but there's been nothing done to try to regulate, control, and stop the madness of it being so easily accessible. And these men out there don't even know where to go. They're too ashamed because we also treat them differently because they're meth addicts. That's a community problem. I want you to watch Crystal City, the movie that we talk about today in this podcast. It will show you Firsthand, very raw and uncensored, what this drug is doing to this community. And you watch that and you tell me that something doesn't need to be done, that we should just leave it alone. No one's talking about this. It's time we did. I hope you enjoy the podcast. And, um, I'll talk to you later.

Hey, welcome back to The Aftermath, guys. I am with probably 2 of the most influential voices today in the crystal meth addiction space when it— in— when it comes to men who have sex with men, Dr. David Fawcett and Terrence Crawford. And if I say Dr. Crawford today, I'm sorry, I've been practicing and I keep melding your names together and saying Dr. Crawford. So, um, if I say that, you know, we'll just leave it and go on. I don't really edit these. So, um, but I am really excited to bring these 2 to you. And I just want you, if you listen to— if you don't listen to any other episode, you're going to want to listen to this one. Um, and if you are benefiting from this podcast, you know, I'm going to ask, please take a second. It's not going to take any of your money, but it will take some of your time to rate and review the podcast. Or if you watch it on YouTube, like, subscribe, share, block, you know what to do. This is not new, but this will help the algorithm gods put this podcast in front of who needs to see it. I picked the best and the worst name for this podcast I could have. It's very clever, but it's also not a word, so the Google SEO doesn't pick it up. And so it's a challenge. It's a blessing and a curse. So So there you go. Um, uh, usually we start with, uh, wellness check-ins, but we're going to get right into it. I'm going to let these 2 gentlemen speak for themselves and introduce themselves, and we can start with you, Terrence.

Uh, well, thank you, Dallas. It's a pleasure to be on your podcast. Um, I'm a couple credits shy of my bachelor's degree, to be perfectly honest, so a long shot from a doctor. But, um, you know, I am a filmmaker that took an active interest in, uh, the chemsex epidemic in 2019. And stemming from that came Crystal City, the documentary that we're going to discuss. And yeah, I'm basically just a tweaker that went to film school. You know, I'm also a person in recovery. You know, the longest I've had clean was 20 months, and, you know, several other 7-month, 5-month, 6-month stints. And so it's something that I personally experienced, although I'm not a character in the film. And yeah, I'm looking forward to discussing it further.

Yeah, thank you. Dr. Fawcett.

Hey, glad to be here, Dallas. Um, glad you're doing the important work that you're doing, and, uh, happy to be here with my friend Terry. Um, yeah, I am a psychotherapist and sex therapist and trauma therapist who has been working about 30 years in, in the addiction space, and especially specifically with gay men, and, and more broadly lately with, uh, all kinds of basically queer folks in general. I'm in recovery myself from alcohol for many years, but I never did amphetamines or meth or anything like that. But in my practice, I began to attract a lot of those guys. And so I've had a lot of experience over the past couple decades with this problem. There's been some great advances. There's been some discouraging trends we'll talk about today, I'm sure. But my book, Lust, Men, and Meth, I think is considered one of the mainstays of this. And I have a new book out.

Yeah.

There you go. Called Sex Under the Which is really— there you go, uh, talking about how this, this epidemic really has expanded beyond the parameters of just something that gay men or queer men or bisexual men are, uh, it's, it's happening all across the board in a growing and very disturbing way. So anything I can do to help shed light on that, I'm happy to do. So I'm really pleased to be here.

Thank you. Well, I want to say, so it's been an emotional week for me. Um, it's— I'm coming up— August 4th will be my 6-year um, sober from crystal meth. And, um, fabulous. I was— I presented yesterday. I showed Crystal City, and I presented information in a building that I used to, um, get shelter from on the outside when I was homeless on the same streets.

Wow.

And so just that full circle yesterday was— and I didn't even realize until I got there and I walked around the building, and it just all came together, and it was this It was hard for me to get through the presentation. Um, but just seeing you two here, because when I first was— got sober, so 2018, you think a year into that is when Crystal City came out. Um, and Crystal City and your podcast at the time, Dr. Fawcett, really helped me feel seen, you know, and connected to a larger problem. And I didn't feel like I was such a freak anymore. Yeah. Or a failure, and it just really both of your voices carried me through through COVID really. So I just want to say thank you. Yeah. If you are listening to this, well, of course you are listening to this, but you need to buy the book that Dr. Fawcett just mentioned: Lust, Men, and Meth: A Gay Man's Guide to Sex and Recovery. It's really really the handbook for anyone going through chemsex addiction, but also. We have a lot of family and friends listening to this podcast. I wish I could have handed this to my mom when I first got into this addiction. She found out because I was arrested for felony drug possession. I wish I could have handed this to her and say, this is what I'm— this is what's going on. This is why I'm this way. This is how I got into it. And also, this is what you can do to help me get out of it. I really wish I had it. So If you have not purchased this book, I'm holding it up if you're watching, or I'm putting the link in the show notes. Please do purchase it. And if you don't read, Crystal City is the movie to watch, the film to watch, the documentary to watch. When I watched that, I just— all of my shame just kind of melted away instantly because I was like, this is what I went through. This is me on that screen. Now, I will say it can be triggering if you're newly in your sobriety. However, It also has an effect of, this is what I don't want and this is a way out. You know, there's some hope for me. So, so there you go. So I want to start out by asking you both, um, I've never interviewed 2 people at once, so we'll see how this goes. Um, but there have been some things that I've read that the crystal meth epidemic in— and I'm going to say gay men, but I mean men who have sex with men. I just don't want to say that every single time, but I'm talking about men who have sex with men. But in the gay men population, the crystal meth epidemic has been compared to the next AIDS crisis. And what I'm, what I'm talking about here is not just physical death, but I've seen my friends mentally die and who they were is gone, you know. And, and with this new meth, this super meth that's out there, um, I've seen people, you know, remain in psychosis for so long and paranoia for so long So it's not just they're dying physically, they're the— who they were, their identity is dying. So is it far-fetched to say that this is the next AIDS crisis? Who wants to address that?

I'll jump in on that first, I guess. I think one of the warning signs I always talk about when we're talking about this meth crisis is to not be too hyperbolic, right? To be— in the old days, people say if they smoke meth once, you're doomed. And, and, you know, that's not necessarily true. However, This, in my opinion, this is kind of a devastating epidemic that has just rolled on and on and on, right? I've been dealing with this crisis since the late '90s and it's only gotten worse. And with this new super meth, as you said, Dallas, the symptoms are getting worse. The reach of the epidemic is getting worse. I think it's really, on the West Coast at least of the United States, it's far outpaced the opioid epidemic, which we can't seem to acknowledge in this country. We have only space in our heads for one epidemic.

Right.

It's always the opioid one.

Yeah.

So I think we just really need to recognize this is a huge problem. And, and it, it's apples and oranges, I think, with the HIV epidemic. However, um, I started out working in the '90s with guys who were caught involved with meth, who were on disability, newly diagnosed with HIV, back in the days just after protease inhibitors came out, when people were dying left and right. The mortality started to drop, but those were the guys. And so the, the HIV and meth are kind of intertwined, uh, in a way that's, that's unescapable. And the, the problem, and I think the dismaying factor for me, uh, is that a lot of those guys that survived for a long time with HIV somehow turned a corner, clung on, you know, got the next med generations, and, and finally lived. And now they're, they're, they're really succumbing to meth.

Mm-hmm.

And I, and as you say, it's— and by the way, there's physical death as well with fentanyl in the drug supply, but also there's this like emotional hollowing out of people that just kind of leaves them uh, different. And, and that really saddens me.

Yeah, yeah. Thank you.

Um, very well said, David. Um, I guess I'll just add one thing to that. Um, since perhaps like 2015, 2016, um, we've really seen the expression of Chemsex, uh, ebb and flow and move largely online, you know, where people using platforms such as Zoom, Reddit, Telegram, MeWe X, you know, formerly Twitter, etc., to, you know, basically in a room full of hundreds of other men, you know, jerk off and use meth together. And so the expression has changed, and we have like hundreds of thousands of new profiles subscribing to these forums and platforms. And so there's just different ways in which people are doing it now, and especially following COVID.

Yeah, yeah. Um, and, and that's what I, I always express to people, that this is a different type of drug. You don't see heroin users on Zoom using together, you know. Um, you know, this is— I have— I know of a gentleman, he's younger and he's addicted, and he will— this is how he does it, is Zoom in his room while his parents are downstairs.

Yeah.

Um, and that's different. So speaking of COVID Terrence, your movie Crystal City came out in 2019, right? Um, how has the chemsex scene changed? And you're working on a second movie, but how has it changed post-COVID?

Well, I, I can actually speak to this firsthand. Um, like I mentioned to you offline, uh, the longest I've had sober was 20 months, and that was prior to COVID. And so, um, in full transparency, really My sobriety fell off a cliff starting with COVID lockdowns in March 2020. You know, I was used to working in an office, so my work-from-home situation basically enabled my, my using. I was living with my partner, you know, who relapsed, and then I quickly became triggered and relapsed. And it was just this like cycle of each of us going out, thankfully not using together. But, you know, so many people being unemployed on, you know, the government assistance.

Yeah.

And it just really was kind of like, we saw like a massive uptick in using. And so, in addition to chemsex moving largely online, I think we're starting to become more aware of GHB-related sexual assaults, you know, with like 30% of all men who have sex with men that use GHB reporting personally having been sexually assaulted, with like 60% of people saying they know someone that's been sexually assaulted. I think we're starting to learn more about the transgender women of color that are being assaulted and that there's like a lack of resources for some, some certain groups of people. I don't know, David, if you want to hop in on that as well.

Yeah, I mean, this is the Kind of severity of, I think, exploitation, assault, uh, the, the harshness of the scene. I mean, back in the— I wouldn't say good old days, but, but back when chemsex, for example, was described in the London scene, it was like a living room, socializing, kind of comfortable, kind of chilling was the word people used.

Chill out.

Just hang out. Yeah, hang out and just kind of be, be connected. And I think that the tenor of that has radically changed these days. It's much harsher. Part of that is the meth itself, but part of it is just, I think, the advancement of this whole scene. And we're seeing this, um, you know, discussions which are important to have. You are— what, what is consent, right? And, and how do you give kind of rolling consent in the middle of a chemsex, you know, weekend or something? So, uh, there's a lot of issues to talk about, and, and unfortunately, this is the intersection. not only for, um, kind of exploitation, but, but a lot of the racial tension, uh, gets played out in the chemsex rooms. Uh, just, it's, it kind of pulls in the darker side of a lot of our societies. I think it's something we desperately need to talk about, and, and we don't, we're not having nearly enough of those conversations, at least in this country. They're happening more in Europe these days, but not so much here.

And, uh, I actually, just following up on my own personal experience, uh, as someone who has engaged in these like Zoom Skype, you know, online platforms to do chemsex. You know, I've seen in the chat, for instance, like people sharing links to like, you know, illegal type— I don't know if I should say, but I mean, there's basically all sorts of extreme kinks and fetishes that like can present themselves in an unwanted fashion, right? And if the moderator of the room, it's their job to like immediately boot the person if there's someone sharing illegal content. Or, you know, it could be— it could range from like child abuse content or like bestiality or, um, what else? I mean, actually, I was in a room 15 minutes in where I noticed that half of the attendants were wearing swastikas.

Ah.

You know, and I had never experienced like gay Nazis in my life. Of course, like, you leave the room immediately, but—

Yeah.

Um, well, you know, it's just this expression, uh, of chemsex is really problematic for me, and it caused a lot of confusion, um, you know, because this is something that I was actually actively engaged in for a time. So, yeah.

What do you— is there any— are there— is there any research or anything being done to understand why it seems to be becoming more aggressive and more dark um, of a drug. We're seeing gay Nazis now, you know, but, um, there's a lot of, um, you said child pornography, that's really common in these rooms too. Bestiality. It's just as, as risqué as possible, as taboo as possible. Is there any explanation of that?

I think the, the explanation that I think is most often cited, and I think it's accurate, is that just the nature of meth particularly and other related drugs, um, who just boost up the release of dopamine to these stratospheric levels. That's what gives the arousal such intensity. That's what gives the experience such intensity. But very quickly, our bodies develop tolerance to that. And so, uh, the— what, what was really exciting last week isn't so much this week. And so we have to kind of up the ante, if you will, and we escalate our behaviors, we escalate the fantasies, we escalate the intensity.

Uh-huh.

And that often very quickly gets in the dark darker, more taboo topics, because taboo, kink, you know, things that are risqué, all that is exciting. And, and that's what people are going for. It's not so much that these people are kind of morally bankrupt or, or driven toward this. I think it's just this— they're chasing the intensity, and it leads them down these rabbit holes that, as a therapist, I see a lot of people who are really traumatized by this once they try to get sober. It's like—

Yeah.

What the heck? You know, did that stuff come out of my mind? You know, how in the world did I find that hot when I was high? Um, and so it's, it's very traumatizing for a lot of people, but I think it's— the basic explanation is that it's— we're chasing dopamine. Yeah. And, and it has diminishing returns, and so we keep upping the, the, uh, the level of what we need to get to achieve that arousal.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you have any maybe just a, a not a quick tip, but maybe a beginning tip too for someone who is kind of wrapped up in the shame. I mean, there's— I'm talking to straight men who are contacting me saying, I'm so ashamed of what I did while I was on crystal meth because, you know, am I gay?

Am I bi?

You know, um, we have men who, like you said, they're traumatized by what they've said, what they wanted to do, what they said they would do. There were things that I, in my experience, um, You know, at the time I had teen kid teenage kids and had a lot of guys wanting to talk about me and what I was doing with my kids and stuff like that. So what initially is there something that we could say to ourselves to kind of start to alleviate some of that shame and guilt from what we did?

You know, I think the shame piece is so. central to this whole discussion, right? Because I think it's shame that really was there in the first place that led toward an inclination to use. Because these drugs, especially meth, just helps you just step out of your life, all your problems, all your concerns, into this like fantasy world bubble. You know, it's a bubble, right?

Yeah.

And, and disconnect from all that stuff. And so I think one of the things people often disconnect from is shame and internalized homophobia and just all that stuff. And so I think it's there, the core is there anyway. It's all only compounded by the drug use. So I, I, yeah, I think what I do, clients, kind of first step stuff is, is really to look at, at that shame, to really kind of have a stance that's gentle with ourselves most of, most of all, and just kind of be understanding and soothing and recognize there's a part of us that's really hurting. I just, just to really kind of take the value judgment off it.

Mm-hmm.

Because the shame I'll tell you this, as a therapist, one thing I've learned, shame does not heal shame, right? If we shame ourselves for feeling it, it's going to make it worse. And so I think, and that unconditional loving acceptance, that's why I think group dynamics are so important because very often I can't carry myself. If I'm really buckling under the weight of my own shame, it's really hard for me to kind of pull myself up. I need people around me to kind of carry me until I can do it myself.

Yeah.

So I think that's where the group process is really important. Yeah.

Thank you. How about you, Terrence?

Well, I personally dealt with a lot of shame associated with my using, not so much because of any extreme behavior that I exhibited, but more so that I let my family and my friends down, that I've lost my professional credibility at certain points. And it really took a lot of understanding from the people around me and a lot of patience and grace And a lot of times I wasn't really appreciative of their, of their patience. I really just wanted to isolate, you know, there's isolation is kind of a tool because the farther away I am from my, my support network, you know, the less that they can intervene.

Yeah.

And so, but yeah, I'm still coping with the shame of the choices that I made and that I decided to keep using in spite of like, I should know better, right? Like I made a film about it several years ago that is still screening around the world. And in some ways, I mean, this is extraordinarily honest and kind of like brutally honest, but like that sort of enabled me to keep using this idea that like, oh, I can do it.

Yeah.

Whereas other people can't because I know better. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Because I have that credibility. And so I'm still kind of, I'm grappling with that, and it's like a daily struggle.

But but you know, I'll be honest too. You know, having in my in my what I'm doing as a sobriety coach, having it in my face and in my mind every single day has ramped up my cravings, and I have found myself. Not not this year. Late last year, I found myself on apps having conversations that I shouldn't have been having, you know. And it's so it and as my popularity grows, like my TikTok for some reason is like going off the rails right now, and I'm just inundated with messages to hear the stories and to to listen to this what's happening to our brothers out there. Every single day, there's something about that that I want to escape. And, you know, and that's kind of a default way to escape if I haven't learned some techniques. So, um, that's— thank you for being honest. And, and I, I feel that. I feel that a lot. And I mean, Dr. Fawcett, you've been doing this for so long, you've heard all of it. You know, you have heard it all, I'm sure. Like, how do you, how do you self-participate in self-care and how do you separate yourself from it?

It's— this is such an important issue because chemsex, of all the addictions that are out there, I think because of the high dopamine levels and the intensity of it and the sexual piece or whatever, we're very susceptible to it. And, and I think we can get triggered so easily. As I say, I have not had— I've never used meth, but I'm certainly an addict. And, and in many different ways. And so Even I can get triggered by some of the thoughts and discussions. And it's so important to just be able to have a supportive group where we can step out of that and talk about it without shame. You know, we're just speaking of shame, but I think just really be honest with that self-care piece and understanding that, yeah, we probably will get triggered. It's probably normal to get triggered, but it's what we do with that, right? I'm a human being. I notice, you know, attractive sexual people, certain sexual scenarios I hear from clients sound, oh, that sounds enticing.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

But then do I go down the rabbit hole with that? Do I drop into fantasy? Do I get preoccupied with it? No, that's where I think we, as people who have to deal with this and confront this every day face-to-face, really have to say, okay, that was triggering, but here's what I need to do. And whether it's breathing or making a call or taking a walk, walking, connecting with the sky, all those self-care tips that we have, I think are really going to be important for people, because it's a constant battle. And it's not nearly as much as I think the person in active, trying to get actively sober, because then they're really confronted with that every 5 minutes during the day, if not more often. But, but yeah, definitely, nobody's immune from this. And I've seen a lot of people, a lot of, a lot of care providers relapse because they don't take care of themselves and kind of keep ahead of this. It's a really good point.

Yeah, yeah. Thanks for, thanks for that, Terence, because that actually helped alleviate some shame I was having around, around that. Um, because in my, in my music dreams have gone out the, the roof right now too, to be honest.

And I will say, um, one way in which I'm handling this in the short term, um, is through a form of harm reduction, uh, medical marijuana, taking edibles, um, indica edibles, so it doesn't like activate any mental health issues that I may be having. And then I'm also taking naltrexone and bupropion, the combination therapy. And so, I mean, we'll still see like for how long this lasts and if it's playing out successfully, but it seems to be helping in the short term.

Nice. Nice. Thank you for that.

But my sponsor, who is a little bit more traditional, is kind of coming down hard on me regarding the marijuana. He's like, okay, you know, like, I don't usually do this, But, um, I'll give you a month, you know, and then you have to start weaning off of it. Otherwise you have to work with another sponsor. So, um, yeah.

Thank you for that too, because yeah, that's my platform is finding your own route to sobriety. And I am not a traditionalist at all in, in my take on it. Um, so if you're listening to this, you know, you don't— sometimes we try to force ourselves, we're a round peg trying to force into a square hole, and it just doesn't work that way all the time. We have to find what works for us. So I wanted to speak about harm reduction, but first there was a topic that you brought up and it was what's happening in this chemsex community with murders, GHB-induced. So I don't remember what GHB stands for exactly.

I'm sure you can rattle it off, Dr. Foster.

Gamma-hydroxybutyrate. Okay. Yeah, that. There we go. That.

Um, we used to call it, um, ecstasy times 10, or I don't remember what we used to call it when we took it. Um, but for those of you that don't know, it's, it's known as the date rape drug. Um, my first arrest, that's what I was arrested for, was having it. Um, I used to sell it, I guess. Um, but this drug, if given just a little bit too much, the person can pass out. And, um, so there's a documentary happening. It's being filmed in you— in the UK. I was, um, I was contacted by someone and I actually connected them with you, Terence, but they're looking at the Stephen Port case as a jumping-off point. Stephen Port was a chemsex grinder serial killer. Not only that, was his, um, his dealer was also arrested for murder for doing the same thing, and someone else connected to him. So they're using basically using Grindr to, you know, kill to give too much GHB during chemsex to these guys, and then they'll kill them. Some some were planning to dismember. I mean, there's a lot. But then when you Google for the United States, there are many many cases. I'm sure you two are aware. Many cases here of men being arrested for the same thing is Grindr is Grindr serial killing. Going on. And so that leads me to ask about Grindr, and not just Grindr, but I've discovered— Sniffies wasn't a thing when I was using 6 years ago here in my area. Um, Sniffies seems to be the new— is Grindr 2.0, right? Um, to me, um, I've looked on it and I was just like blown away by the fact that number one, it's not an app, so you can just bring it up on your browser. Um, so there's a lot of— I, I have a lot of, um, guys come to me who their, their partner doesn't know they're using, and this is how, because they actually have a block on their phone for downloading apps. So Sniffies is the way around that. Um, but Sniffies, you can sign up for orgies, you can, you know, you don't have— there's really no censoring on there. You can have your picture as whatever pornographic image you want, and you can talk about, uh, openly, it seems like, uh, chemsex use. So what do you all think about— what's your thoughts on the responsibility of geosocial dating apps like Grindr or Sniffies in, in this, in chemsex, in the advancement of chemsex? And, um, what should they be doing that they're not?

Well, um, for instance, Grindr and, uh, to a lesser extent, I think Sniffies are Doing— they have a couple of different methods by which they try to curb chemsex, and that's by removing like the term PMP or party or clouds, you know, just like some of the shorthand, like colloquial stuff. And I think that there's other ways people signal to each other that they're using, whether it's like the party popper emoji or You know, I think there's been like a minimal effort on their part to screen, you know, Chemsex users and then to prevent it from, you know, propagating on the platform. But I think they could be doing more.

Yeah, I think even trying to collaborate with those various platforms to provide social messages or harm reduction messages or anything is extremely difficult, right? They don't really want to interrupt the mindset. I think a lot of the people that are using the apps, right?

Yeah.

It's kind of a buzzkill to have that message come up when you're in that fantasy land. So I think it's a big problem. And I think what I've been just focusing on with where I can make a difference, I think, is just community awareness, making sure people are aware of this going on out there. And we have a subject in the new documentary of a case like this, and that also involved homicides from the same person. So it's just— this is a thing. something we need to be aware of, and I don't think the, the apps or the platforms are doing nearly enough to make it known.

No, no, I don't either. And like you said, at least some type of messaging. Um, uh, I, I volunteer with Controlling Chemsex, which I know you're familiar with, Dr. Foss, or both of you. And, um, that's where we get our clients, right, is where we have an account out there. We have accounts on Grindr, um, and we're finding that And I and a friend of mine in controlling chemsex and I've kind of done a little. He was talking about an experiment where he put a little profile saying, "If you need help, let me know." And he was on there for like two or three weeks, and these guys began to communicate with him and say, "I've been watching this. I thought it was the police, you know, that kind of thing. But I am reaching out because I'm I really deeply need help. I'm in this house." But then it was like. You know, what I've seen before too is, I'm in this house, I can't get out, I don't have a right. It's got that kind of thing. But that leads me to a study that I was seeing in interviewing crystal meth addicts in treatment centers. And a lot of our men were saying, no one told me. No one told me that crystal meth would do this to me. I had no idea what was going to happen. And if someone would have just warned me a little bit before giving me that pipe, maybe I wouldn't have done this, or maybe I would have gotten out sooner. And so in that same vein of informing, what can we do to, to get the word out to men before they use and, and really explain to them? Because when I first came out, I was just drinking, you know, I was out with guys a lot, or groups of guys, and I would hear comments about those, you know, those nasty tweakers or those, you know, dirty meth heads or something like that. Um, and that, that shows there's a lack of empathy too in our community for this group. But also is I— there was no explanation of what, what was going on or what they were or what was happening or what could happen. What do y'all think about that? Any of that?

You know, in, in Lust, Men, and Meth, I talk about— I remember very clearly a guy, a falling-down drunk, right, a gay man sitting in a gay bar bar, very inebriated, talking about meth users and those— how could they do that to them, right? Before he fell off the bar stool, basically. Uh, so yeah, there's, there's a definite lack of empathy. I think, you know, we have this problem here about communication. We've had— I've over the years tried to have various town hall meetings, discussions in the papers, and it— we have, uh, you know, in New York, and 20 years ago, a very famous case where Peter Staley took it on himself because no one was paying attention to put, you know, billboards on telephone booths. But that dates that whole scene. But, but that whole same issue we're still having. Again, the contrast with Europe is stunning to me, where they're having much more community engagement, much more awareness, much more harm reduction talk, much more options, just talking about it. And I think we are— we're way behind the, the ball here in terms of just getting the messaging out. I think just that is, is crucial in every domain, right? Community discussions, um, on, on the apps, just wherever we can have these discussions. Because you're right, Dallas, I think a lot of people don't understand the dangerousness of this. And, and, and including— I include professionals now, treatment professionals.

Sure.

We do a terrible job in this country with substance use programs who, uh, one size fits all. People go in for the same track. Meth is a very different drug. It needs really special attention in terms of how it's done. But, but all these traditional substance programs don't recognize the sexual piece, right? And unless we deal with this compulsive sexual behavior, people are just going to keep relapsing, right? So we're kind of— we're ignoring half the problem. And I think that's a real— that's a real danger.

And can you imagine the impact if someone like RuPaul were to come out publicly I think, Dallas, you brought that to my attention, that RuPaul has never once spoken out about chemsex. And there's other famous LGBTQ influencers such as Jonathan Van Ness from Queer Eye, a show that I worked on, or Katya, also from Drag Race, you know, that's currently in treatment for chemsex-related issues. And it's like what, what power it would have if they were to speak out openly against the issue, you know, or like to destigmatize. Um, and I think that would be something worth pursuing.

Yeah, definitely. Because that, you know, I was thinking about that. I was like, who has the most influence? Um, yeah, I don't watch— I don't watch Drag Race or anything like that, but I know that it's talked about a lot. But if some— what I see clips of RuPaul is the other things, or her, or his open marriage and stuff like that. But what if— what— and not just on a national level, but locally, you know, in When I think about the, the influencers in this, in the gay community, there are, there are men in the city of Charlotte who could come out on Facebook and endorse a candidate, and all of a sudden everybody endorses that candidate without question, you know, without knowing, without any research. If he's doing it, I am doing it, you know. And so in, in that same vein, what if he said, you know, we have to do something about this, you know? show some empathy or care, or how can we help our brothers who are trapped in this drug, or something like that along those lines. And, and so I'm just hoping— I don't, I don't know what I can do my part, but I'm just hoping that this podcast gets out into somebody's hands and they start talking about it openly and stop making it such a stigmatized, um, a stigmatized subject.

Right.

Yeah. You mentioned harm reduction, Terrence, and you're in what you're doing in it. I'm— when I look at what's helping, and you mentioned that the medical assisted too, but when, when we in Controlling Chemsex and in my coaching, there's, there's such a value in motivational interviewing or positive affect, you know, in terms of helping these men anchor into the, the positives. And, and when they relapse, take the shame out of it and extract kind of what did you learn from it? What was the best part of it? Did you only do on a 2-day bender instead of a week-long bender? Or what, you know, did you use less? Maybe you only slept with one person, you know, whatever, whatever we can extract from that, anchor into that, because that's, that's, it's a different type of approach than what we see normally. I have Men, like you, like you said, Dr. Fawcett, shame does not, does not heal shame. I have men coming to me and they're just so wrapped up in, I'm a failure, I have to start over today at day one, and those kinds of things, instead of let's dial into what's— what are your strengths here? What did you do right? What can we amplify moving forward? And I see that a lot in harm reduction as well. And do you own Have any thoughts about that?

I would quickly like to touch on a form of harm reduction that's a little bit controversial, perhaps. And you were discussing GHB-related sexual assaults. So, for instance, when I was using meth or engaging in chemsex in group settings, like at another person's apartment, like I was experiencing. You know, a lot of— I had a lot of problematic experiences that kind of like drove me to, I guess, isolate more in my using. And one of the benefits— I mean, we talked about a lot of the problems with the Zoom online chemsex universe, but one of the benefits is, you know, you're not putting yourself in a situation to be assaulted, right? Like, and you're on camera. So if like someone were to overdose and G out, everyone would see it, and you'd have to possibility of like contacting the, you know, the authorities or like, um, 911. And that's something that I've heard from several, several of our subjects is that, you know, Zoom, while it has its problems, like can prevent some of these more serious outcomes.

That's interesting. It's an interesting take.

I would just say too, and there's definitely a role for harm reduction. I think again, We— if we confront somebody with abstinence only, right, and they're not there yet or even, or even interested in it, uh, then, then I think we lose that person. And I— that's not what I want to see happen.

Yeah.

My only concern about harm reduction with, um, really strong drugs like meth and G is that oftentimes people have long passed moved past that point where harm reduction is the strategy that's most beneficial.

Yeah.

And they're into like problematic use, right? And that— but they're still trying to convince themselves, I just need to cut back, because denial is a big part of an addictive disorder. So I think just helping people clarify when is that point, when is it not so good to try to maybe cut back, but when do I really have to get abstinent and think about that, whatever that means. Uh, maybe abstinence from one drug and not others, but I think we need to really look at that sometimes and And we're not always, as the people themselves, we're not always in the best position to judge that. I think we need input from people outside ourselves, like coaches or friends or whatever, therapists, for sure.

Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. A great point. Good point. Okay, um, do you want to talk, Terrence, a little bit about the next film? What's participate— or what kind of prompted you to make this film, and what's it going to be touching on?

Well, I guess touching on the motivation to create the first film, Crystal City, I was dealing with a lot of shame, and I experienced a lot of stigma, you know, sharing with my friends and family that I was an addict. And so I wanted to make a piece that would reduce that stigma in the community, you know, that showed addicts as people of high intelligence with high creative inclinations and so much potential people that were, you know, pursuing 12 steps and actively getting clean. And the limitation of that first film, though, however, was it really only focused on gay men that have sex with men. And, you know, it focused on 12-step as, you know, the abstinence-only approach is like the only form of treatment. And it didn't really get too much in the weeds about GHB or some of these other drugs that were involved. Um, you know, it was criticized, uh, not by everyone, but by some groups for not focusing on, um, gay men of color or the transgender women of color.

Mm-hmm.

And so I just kind of wanted to expand on the subject of chemsex, but to be more inclusive and more expansive, and also to kind of define the scope of the problem, like how many people are doing it, uh, like how large does the response need to be, you know, like Does the government need to be involved? You know, and, you know, I just, I think I really wanted to make a more comprehensive piece. And so that's what we're working on now. Although I will say, you know, some of my personal struggles have kind of curtailed our progress. But, you know, I think I'm really just focusing on myself and my recovery in the short term before continuing with the piece. But I think it's like, Helped— my experiences have also helped inform, um, you know, the direction that we're taking as well.

Sure. Yeah, thank you. Well, the cinematography is brilliant in this.

And that was, uh, John Maidman. He's a wonderful collaborator, incredibly intelligent, talented filmmaker as well. So without John Maidman, this film would not have been possible. And then also same with you, David.

Yeah. Dr. Fossa, can you speak a little bit to what are we seeing in terms of this drug's effect on the trans population?

Right. So just to take a step back, the trans population has always been affected by higher rates of drug use, higher rates of injection drug use, and all the things that go with that— higher rates of HIV, higher rates of sex work, higher rates of discrimination, higher rates of violence. So it's like all kind of, uh, the dynamics we're seeing, the darker side of the Chemsex scene, kind of on steroids, uh, with that population. So, and we know they're particularly vulnerable, um, especially the last 3 or 4 years, uh, ironically, as, as kind of the— I think the transgender population has been exploited to— for political gain, right, as kind of easy marks Uh, for people, for scoring political points by certain people, um, the interest in them as a taboo kind of topic has also gone up. And so we're seeing, uh, Pornhub, for example, has downloads of transgender porn has doubled every year for the last 3 years. So it's becoming kind of a new fetish. And I think that's then how it's spilling over into some of this. Uh, you mentioned seeing straight guys, you know, who find this getting now involved with transgender women and so on. So it's— the whole thing's kind of expanding. But I think unfortunately, um, oftentimes it's the transgender population that has the fewest resources, the most vulnerability, the most stigma, the most violence, frankly. Uh, and it's something that we, uh, we were talking earlier about conversations about chemsex. We certainly need to have more conversations about that as well. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, yeah. Where do these conversations need to happen? Look, I mean, where can we start them?

You know, I have— I'm a big fan of town hall meetings, uh, or some kind of small group meetings. I know there's one happening in West Hollywood, and if it didn't happen this week, maybe next week, uh, another one. We've had them here where I live in Fort Lauderdale.

Okay.

Um, and so just having those conversations— I also try to take it into professional communities, small groups, uh, any, any place, right? Any venue I think is appropriate to talk about this, because it's, it's really still in the shadows. And as long as it stays in the shadows, it's gonna— people continue to be harmed, because they have shame, they don't share it, they're not getting the help they need. And people are misunderstanding it. Even when there's goodwill, I think people— and kudos to you, Dallas, for just getting this out to families and friends, because people that are concerned and love someone who's struggling with this don't know what to do.

Sure.

And don't know where to turn, because the information is not readily available, right? So it's just the more we can put this into the sunlight, the better.

Yeah, yeah. I did a little case study that I showed yesterday in the presentation, and not only were— I mean, the cis women that were there were shocked by it, but also the gay men too. But I had a map of Charlotte, and I went around to different areas and timed how long it took me to download Grindr and find a PMP, a meth party. I used a fake profile. Of course, you know, here's the thing, I know what profile to get, you know, the most masculine, straight-looking guy possible. And, you know, and I, and I did all the words and said all the things. However, it doesn't matter. Um, but it don't— you know, the longest it took me was about an hour and 40 minutes to be invited. Um, when I went uptown to the, you know, to the most populated area, about 26 minutes. Um, but what struck me was, I know that it's cheaper now than ever and more potent than ever, but I was offered it for free to— for free, um, to an organized party uptown in a high-rise apartment where it was going to be— I would have a package given to me, they said, of GHB, crystal meth, Viagra, and something else. Um, you know, and I would be given that coming in. And so I just thought it was interesting, even in Charlotte— it's not, you know, it's, it's a big city but not really— um, that that's happening. It's happening all around you. And so my point was, it's hiding in plain sight and it's everywhere. This, and this was a Tuesday at 3 o'clock, you know. This was not a Saturday night or Pride or holiday or anything like that.

Right.

This is happening all around us all the time. So, Dr. Foster, do you want to talk a little bit too about your, your second book and what participate— or, you know, what prompted you to write that? And, and what are you seeing there? Implications?

Yes. Thank you. I just, for the last 5 years or so, I've been working, doing a lot of work in LA with a treatment program that really appealed more toward heterosexually identified men, as opposed to gay men. It was for compulsive sexual behavior, pornography use. and for people that did that and used drugs or chemsex. And what we saw were— what I saw really after working for probably 25 years only with men who have sex with men was an eye-opener for me because first of all, a lot of behaviors of straight guys are just like gay guys, right? It's all— it's more men issues than orientation issues.

Right.

But what I've seen, and this is a trend and it's a changing one, is that there's this more spillover, more adapting of meth among straight guys and women And these behaviors that we see of— you said it before, you know, these straight guys who now are sleeping with men or sleeping with transgender women, and their wives of many years are wondering, is my husband gay? Like, what, what is going on? So there's a lot of confusion out there.

Yeah.

And I think it's the drugs and the drug patterns and the chemsex patterns. And, and so I wanted to write a book about that because I think a lot of people, uh, many times I've had requests from straight guys for information, and I hand them my book, right? And the, and the concepts are the same, but all the case studies in that book are men who have sex with with men. So I wanted something that made women and people who are not men who have sex with men basically feel seen in terms of chemsex. And also, it's been almost 10 years, believe it or not, since that first book came out.

Wow.

I've learned a lot. I— more than half of the new book is, is a lot of new tools and skills and techniques that, um, I— that weren't out as fleshed out, at least in the first book. So it's a chance to kind of update everything. But I really wanted to broaden the conversation to include not just men who have sex with men, but But everybody who I see really suffering, women especially, I think ignored in a lot of this, even treatment-wise, there's no place for them to go. So it's a huge problem.

Yeah, yeah, great. Well, I'm getting— I haven't read it yet, but I'm definitely going to. But yeah, your first book is— it's Evergreen, Less Men and Meth. I don't think it'll ever probably decline in sales.

It's really— it's been now translated in multiple languages. It's selling around the world. Yeah, it's following the epidemic, sadly. But yeah, it is.

Right, right, right. Yeah, you know, I have this onslaught of women reaching out to me and they're— and they say, look, I'm not a gay man, but everything you say in your TikToks apply to me, as if you're talking to me. And I hadn't really thought about that before. I had not thought about that.

Yeah, it's a big problem. And, uh, yeah, and people are hungry for information, so Yeah, it's great.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Terrence, um, in this interview, is there anything I did not touch on, did not ask, that you wish I would have, or something you want to, to, to say here that you want to get through?

I guess really quickly, um, I would encourage everyone to read, uh, David's book Lust, Men, and Meth. That's actually how I met David, at a sober conference, um, in Connecticut. several years ago, and I won it in the raffle. And he really signed it and wrote like—

Oh wow.

A note to me, and I— he gave me his card and I contacted him.

Oh wow.

But, um, even in my darkest, uh, days of using, like, it's always been on the shelf there. And sometimes, like, you know, while, while coming down, um, I was, I was reading through it and, um, you know, I'm just reading about the sexual templates or—

Yeah.

Some of the more extreme stories and, you know, just really, it provided the necessary context that I needed at that time to like, A, understand what I had just experienced, or also kind of reduce some of the shame involved. And so I think it really is an invaluable resource. And I'm also looking forward to reading David's new book. I haven't had the opportunity yet.

Well, you're busy making a film.

Sounds like— yes, uh, or raising money for it rather. We did some shooting, uh, last year, towards the end of last year. And so we've just been packaging it in such a way that, um, you know, it would be palatable for grant applications and donors. And so we're, we're, and we've, we've done a little bit of shooting, but not much.

Is there a link or something I could put in the show notes for anyone who wants to donate?

Uh, we're, we're doing private financing. Okay. So it's not crowdfunded at this point, but I will certainly let you know.

Yeah, let me know. And let us, uh, let me know about how you, um, get along with this harm reduction in your, the cannabis.

Well, uh, for me, um, alcohol becomes crystal. I'm also an alcoholic. Okay. And, um, yeah, and that's been kind of one of— that's been the problem for me is like I'll feel that, you know, my chemsex is under control for a period of time and like I'll start to drink again. And so the medical marijuana is really just like a way to avoid, avoid the drinking and then therefore avoid, you know, the meth.

Yeah.

I understand. It's something actually my therapist through my IOP program has been trying to get me to do for quite a long time. And I was kind of reluctant Because, you know, I thought I had left that behind in college. And, you know, my, my partner smokes a lot of weed, and so I kind of wanted to do my own thing. But I think it really is— it's been helpful.

Nice.

But I'll keep you updated.

Yeah, please do. Dr. Fawcett, what did I miss that you would want to say?

No, I think it's a pretty, pretty comprehensive discussion. I just— one, one message I just kind of want to underscore here is That there is hope for this. I think sometimes we just get so caught up in the relapses and the despair and the pain that both the addict and people that love them go through. And I think this can be done. I just want to always underscore that message that people can recover, people can do it. It takes effort, it takes diligence, it takes patience because you're going to fall and you're going to have to pick yourself back up and just keep going.

Yeah.

Um, I think we never want to forget that there is hope for this, and we keep going forward with that.

Yeah, I love that. And, and, and Dr. Crawford speaks from 30 years of, of seeing this. And so if he says there's hope, there's hope. You can take it from, take it from him. I love that.

I've seen it over and over and over again.

Good. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you two, um, very, very much for this. I appreciate your time. Um, if you are watching this and you want to comment. You can comment on Spotify or you can comment on YouTube. Ask questions. If you have questions for either of these two, send them, post them, and I'll get them to them. I'm sure they wouldn't mind answering them. But please do your part in getting this out. Again, I will say rate and review. If you want to join the conversation, we do have aftermath.net is our website. We have a Facebook group, all that stuff. is in the show notes. So if you want to get involved with the community, you can do it that way. That being said, I will see everybody next week.