EP 1:24 Finding Employment Post-Addiction with Kevin Hyer

Or maybe you weren't, but triggered or thoughts to use after treatment, after you'd made that decision? How did you talk yourself through that?

I think for me, twofold. One, I don't want to hurt my family any more than I already had. And I had lost a lot. But as I was regaining my life, I was building a lot back, you know? And like I look today—

Welcome to the Aftermath Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict. now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create a repository of resources for current and past addicts, as well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermeth. Trigger warning, this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey and you feel like you could be triggered by discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, please do not listen to this podcast. All right, now on with the show. Well, you're back. Welcome to another episode of Welcome to another episode of The Aftermath Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg. We are talking today to someone who I have a lot in common with, and I'm very excited to have today. And I'm excited that we met through Mary Beth O'Connor, who is also going to have an episode on The Aftermath. We are recording next week. But let me just get right into it. But first, before I do, If you are enjoying Aftermath Podcast, and I know many of you are because as we are recording this, we just hit our 1,000th download. If you're enjoying it, please rate and review. I'm sure you've heard that if you listen to podcasts, but we are getting messages every single day from someone who these, this podcast and these interviews, these stories have made a difference in their life. They're choosing to be sober, even if it is for that day, that moment, that weekend, whatever it is, they're making a different choice. They're interrupting their patterns. So I want to get this podcast in front of everyone who needs and wants to hear it. And the way to do that is to fuck with the algorithm by rating and reviewing, sharing and liking on your social media. Please do that. All right. So Kevin Hyre, Esquire, is founder and CEO of the Higher Calling Foundation. Center City Philadelphia-based 501. It educates businesses on the benefits of promoting and maintaining a recovery-friendly workplace. Prior to forming the foundation, he practiced labor law for 10 years in different capacities at Obermeyer, Rebman Maxwell, and Hippel Compass Group USA. Did I say that right? Oh, and SEIU Healthcare PA. In long-term recovery from methamphetamine use disorder, Kevin is Board of Counsel to Faces and Voices of Recovery in Washington, D.C., and member of the Penn State School of Labor and HR's Affiliated Program Group Faculty Advisory Board. Wow, that's a mouthful, Kevin. Welcome to the show.

Thank you. It's good to be here.

The first thing we do on The Aftermath is a wellness check-in. So I just want to check in with you and how are you doing today? By the way, I know you are so, so, so busy. Have so many irons in the fire. So thank you for taking time today.

Thank you for having me. It's a topic that I feel passionate about and we don't have enough discussion about addiction in America and we need to.

Right.

Crisis, whether it's methamphetamine or any other substance.

Thank you. Yeah. So how are you feeling today?

I'm feeling well. I'm feeling well. Summer started and I'm, you know, love being outside and It's Pride Month, and oh yeah, life is good.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I was commenting to you when we first got on before recording that you always have a smile on your face.

Well, like I said then, I have a lot to be grateful for.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, I had a really serious meth use disorder. I mean, I don't mind saying I was very addicted to crystal meth, and I came back. I got a second chance, and that's the same gift through our foundation we try to give other people.

Yes, I love that. I love that. You know, you and I were both 39 when we first tried crystal meth. You and I were addicted the first time. You know, I tried it and 3 years later was homeless. So you were commenting that how a single decision in a single moment just affected the rest of your life. Can you talk more about that? Absolutely.

Sure. No, I mean, I was 39, newly single, kind of having an early midlife crisis professionally. I was on top of my game, but personally I felt lost. I tried it when someone offered it to me just in a momentary blip of insecurity. I didn't think it through. What happened happened. And within 8 weeks of that, I was out of a job. That's how quickly my life fell apart. And I was shooting up in crack houses. Like, I was a mess. And I spiraled and it just kept getting worse and worse. But my brain chemistry was changed and I wasn't seeing it. And I finally overdosed. It's kind of hard to do on meth, but you can. And I did it. I was on dialysis for 10 days. And that was finally what forced me to realize I need to go to rehab.

Wow. You're right. You know, I've never known anyone to overdose from crystal meth. Was it from injecting then?

No, it was, it was cut with some stuff that I think contributed to it, but I was on dialysis for 10 days as a result of it.

Wow.

Your body temperature soars really high. Um, you get overamped. So the bottom line is I did end up on dialysis for 10 days because of my crystal meth use. It was at that point, you know, I realized my family then knew I had drug problems. Of course, I wasn't living with my parents because I was well out of the house. And yeah, that's the bottom line. And after I went to recovery, I started the Hyer Calling Foundation and Hyer is my last name, H-Y-E-R. And we're out there trying to take something good from what happened.

Yes. Yes. Because you were, you lost your job after 8 weeks, but you were given a second chance by the law firm, right?

I work with them now as an outside collaborator on this topic. Yeah.

Okay.

Which is really cool for me. I love that. Maybe the first time any major firm has given some kind of second chance to someone fired for drugs. I'm not certain, but it's a cool story and it shows the power of redemption, you know, and how some employers can model a recovery-friendly workplace, you know, for people who are highly motivated. Now, second chances come in different forms. I'm not on their payroll, but I'm working with them now in this capacity and we've been doing some great events together. I see it growing, um, you know, as an outside collaborator, at least for now. So, you know, you can come back from serious addiction. And if there's a message your listeners were hearing is no matter how much you have screwed your life up with this drug, and you can fabulously blow your life up with methamphetamine, recovery is possible and you can rebuild a life. It takes some help though. And that's why my foundation exists and other organizations do. To give people a helping hand, because you can't just shake your finger at someone and say, "Stop using meth," you know, and expect them to overnight rebuild their lives. It's just too hard.

Right, right. You went to dialysis. You had this experience, this health experience, and then you went directly into rehab treatment.

Well, I started some outpatient programs because I didn't want to admit I needed inpatient, which of course, looking back, is absurd. You know, when you're overdosing on meth, that kind of means you probably need inpatient. But I didn't want to go to inpatient. 'Cause I didn't want the stigma of that. I felt like as long as it was outpatient, it was sort of like rehab light, but it didn't work. I kept using.

Yeah.

That year after the overdose, something happened in my life that it's not worth getting into, but it was really traumatic on its own. And I think interfered with my ability to get sober. It was something I'd never expected to have happen in my family and it did. So finally I did go to inpatient rehab. And that was in the summer of '21. And that's when it stuck. When I was able to go to the Farley Center in Williamsburg, Virginia, give them a shout out.

All right.

Had a great program. And yeah, it was after that I finally got sober.

Do you, did you think that they understood the nuances of a crystal meth addiction?

Well, they treat all obviously substance use disorder. I think they did. I mean, what I think to me is meth is so psychologically addictive more than physically in my experience. Like my, my experience with methamphetamine was not that I was a daily user. I would use it on binges, be a mess afterwards, have sort of brief periods of sobriety where I'm thinking, okay, I'm not going to do that again because whatever bad things came out of that binge and then I'd get triggered again. Now I have friends and you may know people who use it daily and they function. I was never able to be that functional.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think they understood, you know. Yeah, addiction's addiction, I believe, at the end of the day.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I only asked that because some— that's some of the feedback I get from some of my clients who are gay men who have been, you know, have struggled with crystal meth and they— and maybe it's their perspective that's off there, but they feel like the treatment center doesn't quite get them. But that's the only reason I asked.

Stimulant use disorder. I mean, it's really not all that different than if you were treating cocaine use disorder.

Yeah.

Any kind of amphetamine. I think what makes meth to me so unique is it is so powerful. And that drug, it's more powerful than it's even addictive. Like, you don't even realize how much that changes your brain chemistry. And you think you're perceiving the world in a way that's not always accurate. And I had psychosis, you know. It's bad stuff, but recovery is possible. And that's what my passion is around, is saying that you can come back from that.

Yeah. Yeah. What do you think was, when you went through treatment, what do you, what was the key to you finally making a decision to not go back?

I can tell you there was a moment. And this story is totally true. I was working with my psychiatrist and she was getting frustrated with me. And she looked me dead in the eyes and she said, you are going to go to prison if you don't stop doing this. Now, I wasn't an end user. I wasn't selling it. But she just, the way she said it, I felt like it was almost my higher power speaking to me. I really mean this sincerely. Like she just said it with such certainty. It's like, you are going to go to prison if you don't stop. Wow. And at that point, I truthfully, I guess I heard it. And I was like, I don't want to lose everything I've spent 10 years practicing law to build to get a felony and never be able to go back to the law. And I don't know, for whatever reason, it was at that point I had lost so much. I heard it, you know? And I had parents who were wonderfully supportive. And, you know, I don't know. I guess for me, that was kind of a turning point. Yeah. When she was just like, you're going to go to prison if you don't stop.

Yeah.

What do you want to do? Do you want to do meth or do you want to go to jail?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can you talk about then your thought process after you left in terms of, I'm sure you were, or maybe you weren't, but triggered or thoughts to use after treatment, after you'd made that decision? How did you talk yourself through that?

I think for me, twofold. One, I don't want to hurt my family any more than I already had. And I had lost a lot. But as I was regaining my life, I was building a lot of that, you know? And like I look today, sure, I'm not going to BS you. Of course I could get triggered by things. And if I dwelled on those triggers, which I don't, it would make me want to use. But I've come so far and I have so much now. I mean, I would lose my foundation and all my credibility would be out the window if I was using again. So that's what kind of keeps me sober is I got a second chance. I'm so grateful for it. And that's, like I said, the gift we try to give other people so that the beauty of what you have now outweighs even the best rush you could ever have on that drug.

I love that. I love that. I love that. Well, would you like to tell us more about Higher Calling?

Sure. Yeah. So we're a 501 and our main focus right now is promoting recovery-friendly work. I'm a labor attorney, so my background's kind of in the workplace. I've worked with a lot of HR professionals, union leaders who are out there trying to say, look, when you hire someone in recovery, you are certainly doing a good thing for someone else, but it's good business. That's our main— people in recovery make good employees if they're in recovery, if they have some time under their belt. You know, we're grateful, we're appreciative, we have self-awareness, perseverance, a willingness to collaborate. Honesty. If you're working a real program, whatever program, I think you're going to be incapable of lying. You're going to do the next right thing. So there's soft skills, but there's still things that have real value. And family members benefit from a recovery-friendly workplace. If you have a workplace where people are going around talking about drunks, tweakers, and junkies, how do you think someone feels if that's their spouse or child?

Hmm.

It might be them.

Yeah.

You know, if you have a recovery-friendly workplace, you may have leadership that's openly in recovery, okay? Or they have a loved one that is, you know. Or imagine if we had workplaces where when open positions came up, they contacted local alumni programs of rehabs and said, hey, this is a position we have, and then post people of color, LGBT, women, all those other groups, and people in recovery especially encouraged to apply. And of course, they don't have to hire any particular person. You know, if they're not the right fit, you're not going to be offered the job.

Right.

But it— that would do so much to help people in recovery, and you reap such a reward because you'd have less turnover and better productivity. And for those employees who are employed, the stat we use is 70% of people with a diagnosis of SUD are employed. They can come sooner and say, look, I have a problem and I know I need to get help. Why don't we figure out how I can go to treatment before you have to manage me out, I get arrested, or I have a health issue? And then they have to pay turnover costs. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It makes a ton of sense. Yeah, I'm reflecting on my own experience. I was an executive at a law school, you know, and I was running off the rails pretty quickly. But I was just scared to death to admit You know, anything.

This drug has a stigma to it. It's interfered quite honestly with some of our fundraising at times with, um, certain people with alcohol use disorder look at this differently. Um, not everyone obviously, but to me addiction is addiction.

Yeah.

But even within the recovery community, there are people that do seem to feel like crystal meth and crack and heroin, the hard drugs are in their own category.

Yeah.

And my feeling is, well, you know, you can wreck your life with alcohol as much as you can. Nothing better than That's right.

That's right. Yeah, you know, there's several clients I have who go to AA because they're a little too nervous and they feel ashamed to go to NA. They would rather say they have alcoholism than they have crystal meth addiction.

I go to some AA and I just usually what I also say is alcoholic addict. I don't think they really care as long as you're not talking about your drug of choice there.

Yeah.

Respect their house. I think, I mean, I go to some AA groups and these guys know that I had a mental use disorder, but I don't wear it on my sleeve.

Right.

And I otherwise kind of relate with these people. But yeah, no, I mean, it's, this is hard stuff. You know, there's a lot of internalized shame that comes with addiction.

Yeah. Is that, you think, a big factor of why you You adhered to it so quickly. Was it shame?

No, truthfully, I just liked it so much. Yeah, I was a true addict's addict, and it was like this new reality. And like, I definitely knew that, like, I had had a wildly dramatic fall from grace, but it was just like, well, I'm addicted to meth now, so I'm just going to roll with it. And this is my new reality. How do I manage it? That was sort of how I saw it was okay. This happened. It is what it is. How am I going to manage this? And for a little while I did. But again, addiction tends to be progressive. And I was definitely getting more and more psychosis. And I was having physical reactions that were worse. But actually, what was the most frightening was the psychosis.

Yeah.

I mean, it went from hallucinations I knew were hallucinations to hallucinations I did not know were hallucinations to what ended up being almost psychotic breaks.

Wow.

Or I would have complete ideas in my head that were just utterly not real.

Wow.

You know, like, I remember one time thinking my life was a movie. I was on the set of a movie.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like, it's an evil drug.

Really is. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that. Just to really, you know, everything, not to make it about me, this is your interview, but I Once I started, it was the same thing is that I, I just said, okay, you know what? I'm a meth addict now. And like you're saying, like, how can I manage this? How can I make the best of it?

Well, and it's a community too, I found. It's highly dysfunctional. You know, and people will obviously set each other up and no one wants to go to prison. So the person, no matter how close you think you are with this person, if they're, they're in trouble, they're going to try to find some way to put it on you. So it's very dysfunctional.

Yeah.

But I did have a community of sorts. I found some guys that were decent people and we bonded over how we all found ourselves. They tended to be professionals.

Oh.

In this. And of course, in the gay community, it's not that unusual to have 40-year-old men who are professionals fall into this.

That's right.

And we supported each other. Like, I learned stuff like, you know, reality, how to manage the issues that exist around the dental problem. I had a night guard. I always had Biotene in my mouth. I went to the dentist every 2 months.

Okay.

There was other stuff I knew I had to do. I had a style— I remember someone telling me to get a stylus when I started having so many shakes that I couldn't type on my cell phone. And that came from a friend. So we supported each other.

Yeah.

But I think you can get a much better sense of community in recovery.

Yeah. Do you stay in touch with any of those people?

Not really. I'm far enough into my recovery right now that if I ran into them, it would not trigger me. In fact, some of them I actually think about. But what's really cool is 2 of the guys I used to party with are now in recovery. And I think there's some others that are kind of like sober curious. Like they know it's not sustainable, but they have a serious addiction. And for the ones who do have justice involvement, Which is a nice term for a criminal record. It's even harder to get out of it. And that's part of the message I'm trying to bring on a national level is when you encumber people with criminal convictions that you won't expunge, you know, when you won't give people a second chance, they're going to give up, you know? And that's, that's what I saw, especially with the dealers I interviewed, is nobody wanted to be selling crystal meth at 30. You know, they were low level. It's not like they were making all that much money.

Right.

They couldn't do anything else. Hmm.

Yeah.

They went back to what they knew. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I personally was justice involved, but I had my second chance was a drug treatment court.

Okay.

Yeah. And we had—

How did you feel that went? Like, do you feel like it was helpful or was it just hoops to jump through?

So I will tell you, at first it was basically checking a box and jumping through hoops for me. But because it was either that or go to prison, right? And so I would drive downtown 4 or 5 times a week, go into the courthouse and pee in a cup and do everything they wanted me to do. It was a full-time job, basically. See the judge every 2 weeks, all that. I did it at first just going through the motions and in my head thinking, how long is it until I can use again? But I, but in the process of it, I got to have enough sober time and see what life could be like moving forward and had time to kind of get back in with my kids and develop a relationship with them that then midway through, I started really believing it. Like, wait a minute, I have a new identity now. I'm in recovery, you know? And so I started really trying. And really getting into it and then trying to help others and all that kind of thing.

Service is such a huge component, I think, of recovery. You know, we can only keep what we have by giving it away.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, I had went to the courtroom and in front of a judge every other week for a year. And then so I started seeing these new people coming into the program and, you know, another meth addict. And I saw the look on their face, you know, I saw, I saw myself in them. And so I would take it upon myself to say, you know, I've been there, but this could be you in a year.

Well, I mean, I do some stuff with Center City Philadelphia, the CMA group, and, you know, their young guys come through, you know, and I look at it with a lot of empathy, you know, and it's like they got into it, you know, having some fun, you know, you know, they were living that lifestyle you can when you're, especially if you're young and good looking and you have some money, they were living that life and it Earn them, you know, and often there is justice involvement or multiple employment gaps that make it hard to get a job. And one of the things we also do at our foundation, although it's a smaller point right now just because of some funding issues, is we help people in recovery who are highly motivated get a second chance at a career. And that's through offering services insurance doesn't cover, okay, like helping getting a license reinstated, um, expungement of certain convictions. Um, we have a mentoring program, networking events for people in recovery, reference advocacy, which is where you go back to a former employer and you say, look, I get you can't take them back, but would you be willing to endorse something they did well to help them move forward?

Yeah.

We find ways to make that happen. And I love doing that even myself sometimes. Um, because they can't do it. Someone else has to be the one to make the call.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, so that's our other piece is trying to find folks who are highly motivated, who meet our eligibility criteria.

Okay.

Job scene involves being able to pass a drug and alcohol test.

Okay.

Um, and a little more to it than just that, but we help them get back to work and we've given some people some neat second chances.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

I love that. They're so appreciative, you know, and we'll do stuff like job placement, resume review, interview prep. Um, like with one young man we had, he had felonies from this. He couldn't run an apartment, but he had a professional job with the treatment center. But the landlords didn't want to rent to him because he had felonies around this drug. We found through our relationships a realtor who was able to kind of go and ask these folks to give it a second look. And they were able to get him an apartment. So that's the kind of stuff we do.

Ah, you know, I love that.

And it reinforces their recovery, you know, you get that purpose and meaning of employment and obviously the financial stability it offers.

Right.

We think it helps break the generational cycle of addiction. So often in families, it is a generational thing.

Yeah.

You know, life is stabilized. Your children are going to deal with less of the collateral damage.

Yeah.

Like incarceration, domestic violence, sexual abuse. I mean, all the bad, bad stuff that comes with this disease.

Do you keep track of your, your, your, the people that you place? Is there kind of an alumni type?

Yeah, we're very selective with placing you in a position. because then we're putting our name behind it. You know, we're only 3 years old. What tends to be a better fit is, for example, someone comes to us, we assign them a coach, volunteer coaches from the International Coach Federation. I know you're familiar with coaching.

Right.

And we make a plan, like sit down, what do we need to do to get you back to work? What's a realistic plan for you? Looking at the skills you have, the education you have, if there is justice involvement, how serious it is, how much clean time do you have? You know, that's where we're better at is kind of career counseling, you know, and then, or giving them an internship with us if they need to get some baseline experience or placing them in an internship with someone that's a better fit, you know, because we don't want them to fail and putting someone back to work too quickly isn't good for them or us or their employer, you know.

Yeah, for sure. Wow.

Sometimes the answer is working as a server and doing an IOP 20 hours a week. You know?

Ah, yeah.

Because I'll say, you know, and you know this, what we put before our recovery, we're going to lose.

You know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So if you're not sober, a great job isn't going to fix it. You've got to get some time under your belt and address the triggers. And as you and I both talked about earlier, let your brain heal a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point that I hear a lot too. I just want to address if you're listening to this, that it takes maybe more time than what you realize for your brain to heal. And a lot of people are in a hurry to get the job back and to get the life back and those kinds of things. But you're really doing yourself a disservice if you don't take the time to let that brain completely heal.

Sometimes people for financial reasons can't.

Yeah.

That's hard, you know, and in a perfect world, I'd love if we ever could find some, some really, really deep pockets around this to try to fund something that even if it was volunteer work, have people picking up trash, pay them $15 an hour or something so they have some income while they work in IOP, living in a sober living house. Again, that stuff you can't bill to insurance. Okay.

Right.

So that's really our business model is like when I left rehab, I learned a lot of things from this addiction. But one of them was, I feel like there's a void in the market for collateral wraparound services. I don't know what you want to call it, but services to help you rebuild your life in the wake of serious addiction. Because health insurance will only pay for therapy and rehab. Well, you don't need rehab. You need to stay sober.

Right.

And that's the last thing you need is another trip back. Maybe therapists they'll pay for. They might pay for some sober living, but there's nothing for all that other stuff.

Right.

You know, like getting a birth document. Like we help someone get a Social Security card and a birth certificate. Their life was such a mess. They lost that, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, that's a great point because when I left drug treatment court, there was no there was no transition back into life, right? It was here's your letter. Your charges are forgiven, but I could have went right back into the same community. I chose to move out of the county, and the kids and I went somewhere else because. I knew if I were to go back right into the same environment, you know, the dangers are there.

Yeah. And the dangers have huge implications, you know. But I think, I don't know about you, I feel like for me, as I've gotten further into recovery, the triggers are there, but they're less. And I've learned not to dwell on them kind of thing. If that makes sense, like, I think the longer you're in recovery, the better your chances of staying in recovery are.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What is, how would you describe life in recovery now? Now that you're where you are?

Well, the thing I say to people, and it sounds funny, but it's true, I now appreciate again the beauty of a good night's sleep. Of course, I would be up for days on that. No, I actually never was able to stay up much past 3 or 4. Like at that point, I was just, I was, I was 3, 4 days. It was time to sleep. So I wasn't one of the people that was up 7 to 10 days, but I never slept well. I didn't dream. I remember having 3 or 4 hours a night of sleep and it wasn't quality sleep. So I love today that, yeah, I mean, there were so many times I remember it being 8 or 9 in the morning and I'm seeing the sun come up and everyone else is getting ready for their day like we're doing now. And I was strung out. You know, and that's when you see addiction as the heartbreak it is.

Right. Yeah.

You had your high, the fun's over now. You've got to pay the piper. So for me, what I love about recovery is, you know, the friendships I have in the recovery community. I get that support because you can't do it alone. I really don't think you can do that. In my opinion, it's not a cliché when people say you can't do it alone. You can't. You need the support of other people. I'm just content. Like, you know, it's a journey, you know, and I'm proud of what I've built with the Higher Calling Foundation. You know, to have a former employer be willing to do a press release about working with me again, that did for my— I mean, I can start crying. Like, what that did for my self-confidence. And that's what we're trying to do for other people. Maybe not in that same example, but the same idea of giving people who are highly motivated, you know, say those words, a real second chance.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love what you're doing.

I just, wow.

Are there other services like yours out there in the country? Are there founders?

Not the depth and breadth of what we do. You know, what's making it, we're going to make it, we're not going to shut down, but it is hard to fund this because you can't bill any of this to insurance. So even if a rehab wants to get on board with this, somewhere either you have to get it funded through private philanthropy in some way. You know, so what we're kind of trying as we grow to maybe get some huge corporate sponsorship behind it, because we're also trying to make a message national. Like addiction's a crisis right now.

That's right.

You know, and I, you know, we all know what those stereotypes are and they're damaging. You know, like with meth, we all know what that is. If you fit that, you may internalize it. In my case, I didn't fit that, you know, tweaker in a trailer park image. I didn't think I had a problem. Well, I had a very serious crystal meth problem, you know? So we're out there a little bit trying to say, let's stop these labels. Let's go with the stigma. It's all substance use disorder. Okay. Beware the words we're using, recovery dialects, you know, and let's make it— people see it's okay. You can have an addiction, still be a good human being.

Yeah.

And recover, but you need some help. And that's what we're trying to do with this foundation.

And I would think, I'm thinking about myself. When I was, you know, first coming out of everything, even though, you know, okay, my charges were expunged, but I still carried the guilt, the shame of what I did with me. And at first, when I'd go to an interview, I would just blurt it out. I was also a meth addict, you know, like I didn't have to. I just wonder, do you have to do a lot of work around the own— the stigma in their own head?

There absolutely is a stigma in certain circles of wealthy individuals who have alcohol addiction. We've definitely run into that in mainline Philadelphia. Not everyone, but it's a thing. I feel like I don't— I mean, I'm openly gay. I came out 20 years ago. Like, I'm used to having to face the world with a little bit of an extra layer of skin. I think what I would say to your listeners is this: whatever your life circumstances, If you hold your head up high, you see, right? I did have a problem with methamphetamine, but now I'm in recovery. And you hold your head up and you look them in the eye and you show all the things you're doing. It can actually become a strength. Like people will respect you. You know, you can come out of addiction better off than you went into it. I believe that, but you have to work a program and do the hard work. So I don't think, yes, it's a stigma, it's real, but I don't, I have found, at least for me, people are kinder than we always give them credit for and more understanding. And in my experience, although I did lose some friends, I found out more people were understanding than I thought they would be. They understood what happened.

Yeah.

I didn't need to go into great detail. They got it. They're pretty sharp people, how I made the mistake. And when you change, as long as you aren't really hurting other people, and in my case, I was only hurting myself. I was just an end user who was a mess. You know, and make amends. You know, and if you really were hurting other people, make amends. What were your experiences with that?

With me with making amends?

Well, all of it. You know, the stigma of feeling amends.

You know, I exaggerated a lot of it in my head because, so going through drug treatment court helped me Stop wanting to use meth, but it didn't resolve the internal shame for me. So it's I like that what you said was no, I didn't use because I was dealing with shame. It was I wanted it and liked it. You know, because there's a lot of people, a lot of people will come to me and they just demand to know why did I do this? Why did I do this? And sometimes there there is no. The reason, the why doesn't matter at some time, at some points. But for me, my first time using it was the first time in my life at 39 that I felt shame-free, guilt-free. I didn't feel self-conscious. I didn't worry about what I looked like or how I sounded. The guy was looking at me, touching me, treating me like I had always wanted to be wanted. Because I just wanted to be wanted, right? And I had gone through, you know, all my life of being closeted. And then when I went into the gay scene, I didn't— it wasn't what I expected. And I felt even more rejected. But suddenly, this weird guy in this house with his overgrown grass, a sling and porn, wanted me more than anybody ever wanted me in my whole life, you know. And he wanted me for 3 days straight.

No, I know, we all know it. I get it. Yeah.

So that was what I was addicted to. Okay.

Okay. I follow. I get it. Yeah. And I know other people who've said similar things. I think for me, it was, I was, I just had the obsession. I was obsessed with it. It almost was itself a fetish. The drug itself can be. It's bad stuff. I mean, it really is. The psychological effect it takes on you and it changes you. You know, I just, I know for me in recovery now, I just look at what I went through and I'm just so grateful to be on the other side of it and to make a difference in my little corner of the world. And we all can make a difference in different ways.

Yeah.

But you're right, drug treatment court does not address the underlying trauma that drives the addiction.

Right.

Was there counseling with it?

No, I mean, I had, you know, I was in treatment, I was in IOP, and I was serving at night. There was no counseling. I had a case manager. But he, you know, there was that gap, I will say, of he didn't quite, couldn't relate to a gay man, and he couldn't relate to what was happening or what, you know, I mentioned water sports, you know, what's water sports? You mean skiing? You know, and it's like, you know, the, the lost in translation here, you know.

Well, you're talking about cultural competence. Although I don't think the gay community corners the market on that stuff. But I hear you. Yeah. And yeah, that's the thing I find funny. I'm sorry. Like, People seem to think that like gay men use meth for sex. Plenty of straight people do too. Yeah, I've always found that funny when it's associated like, like, yes, it is a problem among gay men for that reason, but we don't corner the market on it. We don't have a monopoly on good sex.

Right, right. Yeah. And so I, coming out of that, when I started to apply for jobs, I carried it with me. I identified with my addiction. You know, I wasn't at the point yet where I understood there's slight nuances in my language. Instead of saying I'm an addict, I would say I experienced addiction or, you know, and when I said that, it kind of freed me up from it a little more.

Okay.

I'm, I just like our mutual friend, Mary Beth, I cherry-picked what I liked from the 12 steps and cherry-picked what I like from other things, plant medicine, and I put it all together and I made my own program. But yeah, I would walk into an interview with such low confidence. And the thing is, is that it was all here. It was all in my head. Sure.

No, I think it can be a strength in the workplace. The bottom line is if the culture is really that conservative, that they're going to have a problem with someone who had a meth use disorder, one, chances are they're probably homophobic too. Okay? It's just not the right setting.

Yeah.

You know, like there are places if I were to go look for a full-time job, I just wouldn't go. It's not the right fit. And that's, we know this in recovery, our higher powers, if you embrace that, you know, the right people come into our lives for the right reasons at the right times. Yes. You know, and again, recovery gives you the Serenity Prayer and okay, it's not the right job. Whereas for me, if I were applying for a job 10 years ago and I didn't get it, I might stew about it. I'd be like, what's wrong? Like, you know, why not? And now I can see it as, okay, like, don't let God around. That wasn't the right.

Do you think that's the biggest shift in your thought processing as a recoverer in recovery?

I mean, we all— I sometimes struggle with my— what I feel like I want to do, what I perceive my higher power wanting me to do. And when you work in the recovery industry, it all starts to blur a little bit. And I don't know that, like, don't let God is always the best business. strategy. But I just feel, I feel like what I'll say to people is this, today, no matter what happens, as long as I'm sober, I can deal with it somehow.

Mm-hmm.

Okay. Nothing life throws at me, I'm not going to be able to deal with. But if I go out and smoke up on meth tonight, I'm not going to be able to say that in a week because my brain's not going to be perceiving it on top of this game. I may be getting it half right, You know, and I like you definitely dealt with the psychosis and the paranoia. That's the thing: the paranoia I got was it was crippling. It almost reached a point where I couldn't function. You remember being curled up on a in a ball on my bed at my parents' house because having to live at home. Yeah, like yeah, I rang in my 40th birthday living at home. You know, it I lost a lot, but I came back from that. That's the message we're sending is you can recover. So focus on recovery rather than addiction.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Good message. Good message.

But it's, I mean, and I can even use some humor. Like I remember the paranoia I had was intense. I mean, the stuff I thought, I mean, I thought the FBI had tapped into my laptop and was sending me coded messages. I mean, I can joke a little bit now. You know, I lost my wallet once and thought that it was because the cops were following me and wanted to find out really where I lived. Which is of course absurd. The cops don't need to steal your wallet to know where you live. Okay. But like, that's how much my judge— oh, you laugh. It's, you know, my judgment had devolved.

Yeah.

You know, I thought— I remember one time, like, I had an issue with iTunes, and I thought that it was because people were tapping into my phone to listen to calls. Like, you know, I don't want to go back to that. Yeah, I don't. I wouldn't do that to my family. You know, my parents did so much to get me out of this.

Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And what it does to your family, like my daughter has a memory of, and of course I remember it barely, but I, when I did sleep, so I was one of those 9 to 10 dares.

Oh, wow.

So when I did sleep, it was hard, right? Yeah. When I woke up, it was like, It felt like I was underwater and coming up for breath and it's just like, you know, and I would get up and run every— I mean, I was so disoriented that, you know, I would start running. Well, one morning I got up and I ran out and I went into my daughter's bedroom and I got her off the bed and we hunkered down on the floor. And I was like, the paparazzi, they're trying to take your pictures, you know, and they're trying to take your pictures. And then when I finally came to, I kind of laughed it off as it was a dream I was having. And my daughter believed that. But, you know, I walked away thinking, what am I doing here? You know, I'm now affecting the lives of my children even more, you know, and what would be next?

Well, you know, for me, you know, also I don't know if you found this. Did meth play on your greatest fears?

Yes. I have a theory. Yes. And I'm sorry to interrupt, but it feels like to me the drug is intelligent enough to go into your brain, pinpoint your greatest insecurities or fears, pick that out and just escalate it. Blow it up.

Yes. It creates a narrative around it.

Yes.

You know, Yeah, no, I hear you. I mean, I remember just being, and I can, it's funny now, like being just so, because you get so high on it. Okay. Like completely stumbling around, like writing nonsense on social media to people that, and I'd see the next day is just a bunch of letters and numbers. Like the drug is so powerful. And it really is like, don't they say that nothing releases more dopamine than methamphetamine in terms of the high?

Yes, that's right. It's the highest level of dopamine that you can ever get.

Yeah. And then of course what goes up must go down and then you have that depression. And I didn't get so much of the depression from it, but I definitely got the paranoia and just not being— I don't think— I would also, here's another thing I had, and I'm sure your listeners can relate to this. I used to say that Tina crept up on me. What I meant by that was I would think I had things reasonably under control, and then all of a sudden I get like a jolt, like, hey, you haven't paid a credit card bill in 3 months, and I had debt collectors calling for low bills. And that happened. It was a low bill, wasn't a lot of money. I just hadn't bothered to pay the credit card bill, and I didn't realize it.

Yeah. Okay.

Or like, I didn't apply for unemployment for several months. Like, you know, there are other examples. Did you ever feel like you Suddenly have a jolt and just like, shit. Yeah, I didn't realize how much my life was out of control.

Yes. Yeah. I mean, you know, the day I was evicted, I still was not convinced. I was just going along like that. The landlord felt so sorry for me. The sheriff was there. The landlord put his arm around me. He was like, you know, you have to go. And I, and I'm looking around. Oh wait, you know, I'm losing my entire house here.

Did you know that like they were trying to evict you, or was like they showed up one day and knocked and shot?

No, I knew, I knew it was happening, but I would just go in and out of time. Time just didn't mean anything, you know. I just—

you lose time, right? For sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was convinced that something was going to come along because, you know, I was I became addicted to shoplifting. And we, there was a 2, there were 3 of us who really got into fraud. So we were printing our own checks and we had, we're stealing people's information, you know.

That's so messed up.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would sit, it was like a command center. I would sit there and do, you know, probably nonsense all night. But I was convinced that I was going to get, you know, the money was coming in. And then suddenly it was time to go and the sheriff was there and I had to leave. But yes, I would get jolts. I would also get jolts about my medication because, you know, in the process of my meth addiction, I became— I contracted HIV. Well, I was given HIV. I was paused as a fetish. And then it would be— I would realize something would wake me up to say, wait a minute. Maybe it was a sniffle or something. I'm like, oh, I haven't been taking my meds. I don't know how long I would go without taking my meds, you know?

Oh, well, I don't happen to have HIV, but I have other conditions that I was not taking medication for. Like, that drug is just, I know I've said this before, it is so powerful. Like, at least for me it was. I can't speak for anyone else. There was so many things I missed on that.

Yeah.

You know? Like here's an example. I remember when I used to, I would always fill the car up with gas before I went out anywhere on a binge. So I didn't have to buy gas going home because I knew I was going to be tweaked out.

Yeah.

I would wear sunglasses. Like I was always trying to minimize the risk around it. I remember going to drive-thrus at like a Burger King or something and just ordering a number because I couldn't really focus on what was on the screen. The number three, whatever it was, I would eat it. You know, I remember ordering on on um. Grubhub in hotels. I would get like a bunch of shakes sometimes. Like, I didn't know how to even complete the order. That's how— that is how compromised I became.

Yeah, yeah.

Our heads are clouded, you know?

Yes. Yeah. And like you said, it sneaks up on you because I'm talking— so I, I spend my days talking to, um, either people in the addiction or just starting or in different stages. There are so many men who say, you know, well, I don't have that. You know, my friend has that, or my friend is paranoid, or I'm not going, you know, I'm not there. I'm not one of them.

Yeah.

And I said that too, because I had a friend who I watched the light go out in his eyes. His whole beingness disappeared. And suddenly I was jailbreaking. I didn't even know what the word, the fucking word jailbreak meant at the time. I was jailbreaking his phone and watching him through it and, you know, all this kind of stuff. And I just thought, this is sad, but this is not me. But fast forward, you know, before I knew it, I was like you curled up in a ball on my bed. The house was surrounded.

You know, the reality is the meth scene can be kind of shady. There are people that hide camos in their apartments.

Oh yeah.

Sort money out of people.

Well, that is Yeah, well, true. I mean, my dealer could watch his boyfriend through his phone. He showed me on the laptop. I mean, he had—

that's dedication. That's dedication.

We were watching him driving down the road. The phone was in his lap. You know, we're watching the upside of the— from his chin up.

Well, it's funny you mentioned boyfriend. You know, in my observation, I've never seen healthy relationships with 2 people addicted to crystal meth.

No, no.

I mean, maybe it happened somewhere, maybe in the early stages, because I know of couples who got into it together, you know, trying it with a boyfriend to enhance intimacy.

Yeah.

And what I always think is like, you shouldn't, without going too deep here, you shouldn't need crystal meth to have intimacy in a relationship.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's quite a bit of couples and then there's a lot of men who are reaching out to me who They've decided to stop, but their partner doesn't want to, you know, and what a challenge.

That's a rough scenario.

Yeah. What a challenge.

That's heartbreaking because when I went to rehab, there were people there with alcohol in that scenario. One was still drinking. You know, how do you stay— decide between your life and your marriage?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And with this, with crystal meth, you know, your partner's using, they're going to be gone for 2 or 3 days a week.

You know, well, yeah, I mean, and they— I'm not trying to knock those relationships, but it's looking at it stepping back. I saw people like that and I'm like, I guess you have a relationship, but like when your partner's out on 5 or 6-day meth binges.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know what I'm trying to say? Like, yeah, what kind of relationship is this really at this point? Right. No, right.

A trauma bond, probably.

Yeah, exactly. Like, that's not what most— that's not a healthy relationship in my opinion. But, you know, it talks so easily. I was thinking we're talking about relationships. I'm sorry, something came into my mind and went out.

That's okay. How this, if this isn't too personal, what about relationships for you post-addiction in recovery?

No, I am single right now. I needed some time away from dating. I was also focusing so much on building this foundation. I'm putting my foot back out there now. Excuse me. I don't think it's a factor either way. I've gone on dates. I've come far enough into my recovery and built this that I can go on dates with guys that don't use.

Okay.

I certainly would not date someone who's actively using. I know what I meant to say a minute ago. I would think it would be very difficult to be in a relationship with someone who used meth when you were in recovery from meth. That just— I don't see how that would even work.

I don't either. Yeah.

It's a minefield. It's dangerous. I just would think you'd end up relapsing.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

Having it in the house.

Yeah. Right, right.

But no, for me, relationships, I find people are understanding. And you know what? If someone has a real problem with it, it's not the right person. Because I don't want to date someone who's that judgmental about drugs. And even before I got addicted, I don't think I was that judgmental. I didn't understand it. You know, I think it's more about the person than whether they're in recovery or not.

Yeah. Yeah. And I have people ask about, you know, guys ask me, you know, when do I mention my meth addiction in the past? And, you know, that's up to you if you mention it at all. You know, I mean, it might be something—

I want to say almost, maybe it's a little bit like HIV, like when you disclose.

Yeah.

I'm not sure. Well, that's a little bit of a different example. I'm not sure you even have to disclose the method.

That's what I say.

Yeah.

That's what I say. I, after 6 years, I'm putting my toes out there too, actually this year. On dating apps, but my, you know, they look at my information online, and they see what I do and see my story. So it's easy. It's just an upfront thing.

But you really feel like that many guys care?

So I will tell you, so far, I have had, I have had a couple of guys who say, I don't want to be involved. I don't want to be associated with a meth addict.

Even though I'm in recovery, that I've been told that they don't want to be associated even if you're in recovery.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That sounds like an app. Okay.

Yeah.

Sorry to hear that.

I mean, it's, it's also a, it's a low amount. I mean, you know, you, who knows what you're dealing with when you're on these dating apps anyway. And unfortunately, that's how I've met people so far. I'm trying to put— this year, I've also set an intention to get myself out there physically and meet somebody organically.

That's the better way through friends and out and about.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, that's— I'm really sorry to hear you had that. If somebody said to me, I don't want to be a— one, that stigma, that says a lot about their character. I mean, if you're firmly in recovery and you have some time under your belt, Yeah, that shouldn't— yeah, that shouldn't matter. If you were actively using, clearly that would be a good reason not to want to date someone.

But like, um, well, I think it shows it. Yeah, like you're saying, it shows their character. It also shows their insecurity or possibly their own projecting their own. Yeah.

You think?

What'd you say?

I found with some of my younger friends actually were the most judgmental. Um, because I don't think they've had enough life experience yet to see how this could happen. Yeah. And it pushes their own buttons.

Yeah.

Drugs and gay men are a special mix. And if you have those temptations and you're not using drugs and you see someone else who's in recovery, or you are quietly using or dabbling, this stuff pushes a lot of buttons with people.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and that's what I think too, is like, well, maybe they want to use or they are also a user or something. Who knows? You know, because Back when I was using the— some of the, some of the gays in the city who would, would outwardly ridicule me would also secretly message me.

Yeah, I had someone doing that and I shut that down. He, yeah, I had said, and I did shut that down. I was like, you know, if you're going to judge it, at least don't be doing it.

You know, right.

Right. Yeah, he was, he was a mess. But, um, Yeah, no, I mean, drugs in the gay community are a separate conversation. You know, meth is just the one often most associated, but I mean, people use stimulants. I mean, all of it— Molly, coke, G. Um, yeah, yeah. You know, do you find most of your— the folks you talk to, is it strictly meth was their drug of choice, or were they involved in a potpourri of all of it, or Well, you know, funnily enough, I have quite a few clients in London, and methadone is a big drug over there.

It's a powder that you snort, and it, um, it doesn't last as long as methamphetamine, but it gives you the same feeling. It's a, it's a big party drug.

It's called methadone?

Methadone. Yeah, methadone.

Yeah. Okay, like methadone.

It was like, like methadone, but with the R. Okay. Yeah. Because I thought the guy was saying methadone, you know, so we had—

I had a different thing. Yeah.

Yeah. But, but anyway, so it's funny, some people, you know, some guys start— alcohol is a big trigger. You know, I have one client, one drink, and he's looking for meth. You know, and then I have other, and I have other clients that alcohol is not even associated. And that's how I am. Like, I never associated alcohol with meth ever.

I don't either. I don't really drink, but I could. I mean, alcohol is not the devil on my shoulder. For me, it was stimulants.

Yeah.

I liked, I was addicted to cocaine also. I loved good coke because that was actually at least a little more manageable.

Yeah.

Again, this is the, this disease, even using cocaine at the end, I was having bad reactions from, you know, I had seizures from a bump of coke. You know, that's my— I had to stop using. I was gonna, I was gonna have a stroke or die.

Yeah.

You know, prison was always my main fear, but that, that might not have even been the case. It would have just been— yeah. And I know of stories of people who end up— know how they say jails, institutions, and death? Institutions being nursing homes. I'm thinking of someone like 40. from a stroke from doing too many drugs in their 30s. How heartbreaking is that? To be 40 years old living in a nursing home because you had a stroke and can't walk and see because you did too much drugs partying.

Yeah. That's terrible.

That is terrible.

Yeah. But to answer your question, it's mostly all Tina. If they have done other things, they drop it, you know.

Sure. Well, this is the granddaddy of them all.

It is. It is. It is. And it mixed, you know, mixed with Gee, but the, you know, it's a different scenario now because of the entrance. When I was in there with the entrance of fentanyl, you know, fentanyl is getting into meth. It is.

Xylazine is getting into meth, you know.

Yeah.

Well, I remember people used to always say that, you know, meth is meth, you know, that if there was any silver lining in meth, you don't usually die from it. You just destroy your life slowly. I think that's probably still more accurately true.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've always said that meth— heroin will kill you, but meth just makes you want to die, but you can't. It's like you're just losing.

Meth is, you know, actually meth may be the one drug that the PSAs from the '80s and '90s may have done something with. Remember when they used to do those just photos of like the meth project out of Oregon?

Oh yeah.

Seriously ill people. Um, I mean, I think meth has always been understood as a very serious drug, the epitome of a hard drug, certainly as hard as heroin. I don't know if it's more, but certainly is equally hard.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

Um, yeah, for sure.

Oh yeah.

I mean, if you— to me, I think— I can't— in some ways I think it's the worst drug because of all of it, what it does to your mind, the beating it takes on your body, you know, stuff like the dreaded dental problems that come with long-term Meth use, like, I mean, it takes a beating on your body.

It does.

Some of it isn't changeable. Like, there are people who— long-term meth use will change you. Leave it at that.

That's right. I agree.

In ways that you can't undo.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Kevin, what have I not asked you? Is there anything that I have that I missed that you'd want to mention or talk about or say?

No, I think we've covered it all. I appreciate you. An opportunity to come on the show.

Thank you. What a story. What an inspiring story you have.

If your listeners want to see our website, it's hyercollin.org.

Yes. Thank you. And I'm going to put the link in the notes.

Please do.

In the show notes. Please check that out. And yeah, just thank you for what you're doing.

Thank you.

Thank you for what you're doing because it's so needed. I wish I had it back in the day. Okay, guys. If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to Comment if you're on YouTube, comment on Spotify. If you see any advertisements on Facebook, Instagram, wherever we are, TikTok, please, uh, you know, submit your question, join the dialogue, join the conversation. And don't forget, there is a study guide that comes out with every episode. It will come out the day of. Episodes come out every Thursday. The study guide will have a summary of what we talked about today with Kevin and then journal— include journal prompts. And reflective questions so you can get the most out of the episode. All right, we'll see you next week.