EP 1:25 The Meth-y Things We Do with Holden

If you have been a meth addict, you have got some stories, right? You have got some stories. But you, Holden, you have some fucking stories.

And listen, I had to pull out so many stories because I was like, I'm writing a book, not a pornographic novel.

Welcome to the After Meth Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create We create a repository of resources for current and past addicts, as well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermath. Trigger warning, this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey and you feel like you could be triggered by discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, please do not listen to this podcast. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. If you are enjoying the podcast, I have to say this first to get you to hear it: rate and review, please, the podcast, because It, it will help get the algorithm to show it to the right people. I picked probably the best and the worst title for this podcast I could have. Um, The Aftermath, everyone loves. I think it's clever. However, SEO does not love because it's not a word and, um, it's harder to find. Also, when you type in The Aftermath, it autocorrects your spelling to aftermath. And so it is hard. This podcast is hard to find. But if you rate and review it like I've asked you to, then more people will be able to find it easier. So I just wanted to get that out of the way before we started. I am excited today to have our second author on the show. I'm holding the book up. You can't see it unless you're on YouTube, but the book is called Holding It Down. And I have Holden here.

Hello.

And I'm very excited. Holden and I, we go way back because I was on his podcast last year. I was reflecting on that, um, this morning because a year ago I was still using an old laptop that my daughter gave me of hers. Uh, when we did our podcast, I had it propped up on books, uh, on an end table. I didn't even have a desk to sit at. And if you remember, I had weird, uh, earphone earbuds. That kept popping out of my ear as we did the interview. You probably had to do a lot of editing on that. But anyway, welcome to the show, Holden. Welcome.

Well, thank you for having me. How have you been?

I have been better than ever, to be honest with you. Um, I've had a great year. Everything is rolling along. Um, it's nice. It's nice. And I just moved. And so why don't you introduce yourself to us?

All right, well, hello everybody. I'm Holden, um, author of Holden It Down, which H-O-L-D apostrophe N, as well as host of my own podcast called The Sober Unicorn. So I myself is an addict, um, or am an addict, um, as well as have a history with alcohol and meth. So I'm just a person in recovery that likes to come on, share their stories, share their hope In hopes that something— somebody that's listening can help get something and maybe help them along their own journey of recovery.

Thank you. Thank you very much. And I just want to say, you did what all of us want to do, which is publish a book, publish a book of our stories. Because if you have been a meth addict, you have got some stories, right? You have got some stories. But you, Holden, You have some fucking stories.

And listen, I had to pull out so many stories because I was like, I'm writing a book, not a pornographic novel. Um, as any— many people know, meth, especially in the gay community, is very a sexualized drug. And it was that for me until it wasn't, um, until it became a dependency. But yes, I, I support anybody writing a book. Anytime I hear somebody say, I want to write a book, Start with one circumstance and build off of that. I wanted to start writing and I wrote— actually, I started writing like chapter 13 or 14. It was like the first chapters I wrote.

Oh, interesting.

And then I built off of those because that's when I was like, okay, now that these are done, let's go back to childhood. Let's go back to where I am now. Let's go back to this instance. And then I just kind of chronologically put them in order.

That's great. That's good advice. That's great advice. What, what else? Well, I don't, you know, I don't want to get too derailed, but what other advice would you give us if we want to write our memoir? You know, what, what, what, what was your tips? What are your pro tips if people are asking about that?

I personally, like, I, um, like what I did kind of towards the end is I wrote like chapter title and kind of bullet points on what I want, what I wanted within that chapter.

Mm-hmm.

Because then when I got an inkling, a hair up my butt to start writing, I would be like, okay, let's write chapter 2 today. And I could go in and knock out like 20 pages in one sitting. And then next thing you know, like 2 weeks later, I don't wanna write anything. And then I get another hair up my butt. So at least doing that kind of like bullet point thing, it allowed me to, anytime that I would jump back into writing, I could know exactly where I left off, exactly where I was gonna be. Um, but just do it. The thing is, I was very unmotivated when I'm typing, typing away, typing away, and I'm like 3 hours into typing and it's like 17 pages. I'm like, how much time am I gonna have to put into this?

Mm.

But once you hit like 75 to 100 pages, next thing you know, it just like, you just keep typing and you're like, holy shit, I've written 190 pages. So, um, Just be smart about it. Cut cost corners where you can, because publishing can be very expensive when it comes to editors, cover artists, formatting. But at the end of the day, just fucking do it, because that's the only way we're going to get more material out there for the LGBT community.

That's right.

Because as of right now, there's very limited.

That's right. That's right. Especially about this drug.

Yes.

And the experiences on it. Yeah. Yeah. And so I also want to say the, the subtitle is A Chaotic Memoir of Addiction, Sex, and Recovery. And I don't think there's a page in here that's not chaotic.

Yes. Maybe a few childhood pages. Um, um, and I put sex as the COVID um, in the title because I wanted people buying it to realize what was going to be in the book. Yeah. Um, I didn't want to like Shock anybody. Meth, sex go hand in hand in our community, and so there was a lot of it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm going to jump in at a certain place, and that is where our stories— our stories weave in and out of similarities. And I think anyone who's listening to this, if you read the book, you're going to identify with so much, right? However, one part was when You contracted HIV in a motel room. You were paused, right? I guess would be sort of, yeah. So yeah, I was paused. And, you know, the gentleman, the gentleman, I don't think he was a gentleman. The guy who I was with, you know, announced to me like, congratulations, you have AIDS after we were finished doing what we were doing. And so I really resonated with what you were writing during that. And so can you, can you just start there maybe and talk about that experience? Because I think we need to hear it.

Of course. So I was— of course, this is the day that I shot up. This is the first time I had ever done meth intravenously. And I went into a hotel with somebody and just a quick hookup, like he didn't even have a face photo on his profile. And but I didn't care. He was local, close by, wanted sex. And it was maybe 2 to 3 minutes worth of sex. And as he's coming, he pins me down and says, enjoy my AIDS. In that moment, anybody that smoked meth, and especially if it's tied to sex or porn, you find that you go into like more of a devilish mindset. You go, you get very dark in your thought process. So in that moment, it was hot.

Yeah.

Like, don't get me wrong. And I left the hotel, I was like, that's when it kind of set in when I sat in my car and was like, holy shit, was this for real? So I messaged him— well, I went to message him and I was like, to be like, are you for real? Like, do I need to go get tested? Like, I'm not mad at you because I didn't ask before I came over here if you were positive or not.

That's right.

And he blocked my profile. So the thing is, though, throughout my lifestyle, especially once I started using, Doing bareback sex, like it was never like when it was never if I got HIV. It was when, like I knew that eventually was going to happen, especially after that instance. If anybody started bug chasing, like the verbal act of like stating that you were going to be paused or paused or stuff like that with meth entangled in it was very hot. So I started actually I was on a website called BBRTS. Which is catered to bareback sex. And it's a very— most people on there are using meth. And I found myself on there seeking out people only if they were positive to have sex with, only wanted bareback sex. And it was maybe 2 months after that instance to the rest of my sex to like sharing needles and stuff that I ended up testing positive myself. So I don't know. if he was the specific person that did it. But who the hell— I'm sorry, like, who the hell in their right mind would do that? Like, that's right. Now that I think about it, that's right.

Well, he's not in his right mind. No, right?

And I wasn't either.

Yeah, yeah. And so I think it's important to, to note here that if you've been on meth, you do things And you're not in your right mind, right? It does get dark. Um, it also gets very demonic. You know, there's a lot of— yeah, I think you mentioned even, um, you know, someone's talking about the devil and, you know, that you went over to his house. And, and that's common. That's common. That, in my experience too, is that men will, will start reciting 666 and the devil and all that kind of stuff. But anyway, What is a way that you reconcile bug chasing after you got into recovery in terms of being okay with what you did and forgiving yourself, I guess?

At least I feel I felt under control. At least if I was actually actively seeking it out, then when I got it, it was my fault. Um, I, I had nobody else to blame because I was actually actively seeking out positive men. Um, but at the end of the day, I was sleeping with people that stated that they were undetectable when they actually told me their status. So it could have came from a partner that said they were negative.

Sure.

Like, I, I don't know at this point, but luckily, like, when I— when the guy was like, 1 dot negative, 2 dots preliminary positive, Like, when he slid that over to me and it had the 2 dots, I wasn't surprised. Yeah, like, I— in my head, I had already fully conceded to the fact that at one point in my life, I was going to become positive. Um, so I, I think that's where the forgiveness came into play, was because it was like, once I saw it, I was like, well, you did what you were doing. So I mean, you ain't— you're not surprised.

Right. Right.

Yeah.

Yeah. So if you can tell us a little bit before that in terms of getting into crystal meth addiction briefly, just, you know, whatever you want to touch on there. But I want to— I just want to stop for a second because when you're talking about where you were at that point, it seems like we start to just sleepwalk. Through life, right? We're just— we're just doing whatever the fuck comes along each day when we're in crystal meth addiction.

So at this point, as I had like kind of lost a lot of weight, but I was still at that kind of point where I was still too chubby for somebody that wanted somebody average, but not chubby enough for somebody that wanted a chubby, chubby guy, a chub chaser. So I was kind of in this middle ground. And There was a guy named Kelly that I knew that we had kind of just discussed online here and there about hooking up at some point. And I was at home from work and he just messaged me and he's like, hey, I'm getting a hotel. I have some meth. Do you want to come and play and hang out? And I was like, screw it. Like, what do I have to lose?

Hmm.

I knew I wanted to play with him. And so if doing meth with him was the only way for that act to happen, I was definitely going to do it. My father was a major meth addict, so I never thought that I was going to go down that rabbit hole. I knew that like trying it here and there, like that's fine. Like I was like, oh, I'll be fine. I'll be fine. Like I'll never go down the rabbit hole because what my father did. But I did. I mean, I ended up going down the rabbit hole. But yeah, so I think it was obtaining the man that I wanted. I was willing to do the math to get him.

Yeah. Because you, you really needed to be desired.

Yes.

Right. Yeah.

I grew up a chubby kid. I was never desired, really. I was— no matter what app I got on, or I think at that time was like gay.com. Bigger City had like a .com. There was no app. But all these apps I would get on, like, no matter who I tried to talk to, I was just never enough. So when I felt desired by somebody, I was willing to go to any length to be able to like have that person.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we can— a lot of us can relate to that somewhat. Okay, so then let's talk about— talk about, if you can, just kind of highlight some things, um, that happened early on and, and how you got to the point of Uh, just being dependent on it.

So him, what's weird is like after, um, I did meth with him, it was a weekend of essentially methness, um, where I was just blown through by like 50+ men in the weekend. Um, I kind of stopped doing meth for a good 4 or 5 months. I, I feel I was so like self-hating at the time because of what I allowed to happen that weekend. I stopped. The same guy Kelly was like, hey, he hit me up about 6 months later and was like, hey, I'm trying to get rid of meth. I'm trying to quit. Like, do you want it? And I was like, well, sure. Like, even though I had stopped doing it, I was like, well, who wouldn't love some free meth? And so, so I went and picked it up from him and just found myself like at home, just, just smoking meth to get high. Like, there was no sex involved at the time. There was no man involved at the time. It was just me, the pipe, the drug, and like isolation began. That's when like the full chase kind of happened. That's when I began going on BBRTS, seeking out just anybody that had it. I was willing to pitch in. Like, no matter where I was in my meth addiction, I was still somewhat a good person.

Mm-hmm.

Um, really. I, if you smoked me out, I'd be like, hey, let me give you like $20, $30 towards, towards this, the dope. If you did anything, like I was willing to try to pitch in. And I've never really, I never stole anything from anybody. I wasn't that type of person, but I would use the man. And that's kind of where the using started. That's when I would lead people on. Um, and stuff like that strictly to get the dope. Um, and like once you're in the dope fiend, like the dope game, people don't care about physical appearance as much. All they want is the nut, the dope, and that's really it. And so I was somebody that was willing to go out at the drop of a hat, do whatever they wanted to do, any extremity of sexual acts, um, everything up to scat, which is in my book and everything like that. And I was willing to do whatever it took to be obtained by a man and the drug involved.

Interesting. Yeah, I was glad that— I was kind of glad that you went to the scat area because, you know, the fact of the matter is, when you're on meth, you're into things like that, you know, and somebody's got to say it.

Yeah.

And then when you say it in a book like this, it really helps people be like, oh, finally, you know, there's something that like clicks and like, you feel a little healed, a little heard, a little seen, you know?

Yeah. I mean, I was into some of the weirdest things when, when doing meth. I mean, everything from like scat to being fully choked out, to like blacking out to fisting. Fisting, I don't really think is like that extreme anymore. Um, a lot of people get into fisting, but, um, I was more into like the no-lube sex where it's just like forced. Um, like the things— there's a lot of things that I would do during a meth-fueled rage that I would not do sober.

Yeah, but what do you think drives us to want more and more and more riskier and more riskier? And I mean, what What do you think that is subconsciously about?

Escape. So I— from 2 things, escape and boredom. So the thing is, like, that's why many people step out and cheat. That's why many people open up their relationships is because sex with one person seems boring for 20 years. I myself am a monogamous, so it's kind of weird that I was doing that. But To me, it was just boring, um, to just have sex. Well, why don't we add this into it? Why don't we do that into it? Um, I mean, there was a lot of men that I had met online that were into bestiality, um, that were into like— um, in the book it shows the first guy I really ever came across with that was shooting up, he was into child porn. And like, it shows, shares in the book that like the moment he turned it on, I was like, okay, nope. I'm out this bitch.

Yeah.

But who knows how far, like, it could have gone if I continued. But boredom and escape, because to me, when you're in that moment, nothing else matters. We feel a lot of emotional pain a lot of time in our lives with death and loss of jobs and loss of loved ones. But the physical pain allows that release. That's why people work out, is it's a release. So if you're— that's why people do yoga, crystals, there's all sense forms of release. But if you are a meth addict and a sex addict, where are you going to get your release at? And normal sex sometimes is just fucking boring.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How interesting too, to think that, especially you in the book, all that you are carrying with you, you know, even like one of the first boys you met, I think it was what, at an arcade or something like that? You met, you talked on the phone and then you met in person and he wouldn't talk to you. You were rejected right away.

Oh yes, I remember him. Yes. Okay. Yeah, that was I would— that's kind of like being a baby gay.

Yeah. Yeah. And just that, that weight and that pain we carry around, and just one, one puff or one injection, and it's just all gone. And I feel like that's when we play. And that's when we're free for that moment, like you're saying. And so it's like, while I'm here in this alternate dimension, Why don't I just experiment with fucking everything that I can?

Right?

It's like, it's like being at an amusement park.

Yeah, no, I was willing to experiment with anything. Really, the only places that I drew the line, or 3 places really, was animals, anybody underage, and women. Other than that, like, I was willing to try anything.

Yeah, child porn is very rampant with meth addicts. There's whole Zoom chat, you know, are some of those Zoom channels you can go on and watch child porn.

That's, that's insane to me that it's, it's that easy to obtain.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so I want to— if you're listening, I want you to get all the details by reading this book. Um, we're going to put the link in And you, and like I said, some things you relate to, some things you don't. But what I want to focus on is later on, if we can, if we can talk about one of the things is that you really had to get into the right sponsor. So could you talk to us about what the 12 steps mean to you and how important was it to find the right sponsor?

So, 12 steps, man. Um, I know that a lot of people listening may have had some bad experiences. Um, I've been lucky enough to not have many bad experiences within a 12-step fellowship. Um, yes, you're gonna have the bad seeds everywhere. Um, we have bad seeds in our community.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but as a whole, the encompassment of 12-step, um, to me is good. Yes. I understand that as many gay people have a, um, hatred towards God, um, the word God being thrown out to you, or a higher power being thrown at every direction, is like, what the hell's going on? But replace that word with fucking Madonna, Cher, RuPaul. Like, it doesn't matter what that word is. It really doesn't. And the thing is, to me, if you are— if you're— Willing to allow the word God to take you out of something that's trying to help you, then maybe you're not ready for your addiction to be over. Maybe you're still ready to stay out there. Again, there's so many avenues to stay clean. There's cognitive behavioral therapy, there's Dharma, there's— I mean, the thing is, none of them are wrong. They all have the same goal. It's just different ways to get there. But at the end of the day, all of them kind of share the same Root, which is depending on something more than what we are as a human. It can be God, it could be Allah, it could be anything. Okay, universe, the ocean, a shark, I don't care. Um, but the sponsorship portion, which you asked, um, not every sponsor is going to understand what we go through as a gay individual. Not every sponsor is going to understand the sexual aspect of the meth or the, uh, the, the hatred of God, the, the church ostracization that many of us went through as kids. Um, so I ended up with a female sponsor. First sponsor was great, but there, when it came for me to my, my time of relapse, he just didn't understand. He just did not understand the concept between meth and sex. Yes, my current sponsor doesn't either really as much, but at the end of the day, she was a meth addict, so she does at least correlate the fucking psychoticness that meth makes you do, the way it makes you think. But yeah, so finding the right sponsor is key because you want to feel like you trust that person because there are things— there was a secret that I held on to for 17 years that I finally found somebody to trust enough to divulge that secret to her and felt comfortable enough after talking it through that I went to the people that had been affected from 17 years ago. And have the conversation with them too. But yeah, finding the right sponsor, especially if you're going to a 12-step fellowship, is like, is key.

No, I think what you were saying also is important to note, you know, is that sometimes I think we're looking for reasons for 12 steps not to work because we're not ready to stop, right? Um, And so what Holden's saying here is important in terms of if God is that issue, and I talk a lot about giving something over, surrendering to something higher, right?

Mm-hmm.

And the fact is that, right, addiction is a human experience. So we know that that's not who you are on the inside. And so, yeah, coming up with a way to work around that, I think, is important for all of us. But I also want to note that you really benefited from, and I advocate for this too, is the 90 meetings in 90 days, right?

Yes. To me, it just develops a habit. We are very used to developing a habit. When you are in meth addiction, alcohol addiction, what did you do? Like, at least for me, when I was in my alcohol era, I would go to the bar, go to work, bar, home, work, home, bar. And then when I got into my meth era, it was okay. I would smoke this much so I could stop by this time to get some rest, wake up, only smoke just this much to make it through the day with nobody knowing that I'm twacked out. And then, oh, I don't get paid till this day, so I can only smoke this much. So you develop habits around your addiction. So the thing is, when you get into recovery, you need to develop habits around your recovery.

Mm.

I'm not stating that after that 90 days that you have to continue to go to a meeting every day. That's not what I'm trying to say. But it's the fact of going that 90 days and pulling your focus 100% away from your addiction, the, the, those, those, um, repetition actions during your addiction, and pulling it into a focus of recovery. allows you to kind of separate the two. I mean, allowed me to— it allowed me to separate, okay, my lifestyle as an addict and my lifestyle as somebody in recovery. It allowed me to create new connections and new friends. So now when I want somebody to talk to on my way to work, I'm calling somebody in recovery because I already disconnected from somebody that I was talking to in my addiction.

I love that. It's like overriding It's like you're overwriting your patterns with new ones, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. I like that. And then one thing, when you were coming out of this, you know, and did you ever, by the way, did you ever think you would ever get out of it?

Towards the end? No. Yeah. The very last 2 weeks of my using, I would say, before I moved into South Florida, I was miserable. And no matter how much I wanted to stop, I literally just couldn't. And that's what I'm like. And then of course, I'm a big person, as many— if you're watching on YouTube, you can see. So I'm a big boy on top of meth, which now I'm like causing even more heart problems or faster heart rate. So there was many times where I was sitting in my bed just trying to get my heart rate down. There was times where like, I was like, oh my God, how many days Has it been since I've drank in a glass of water or had anything to eat? So for a moment in the last few weeks, am I using? I was like, am I ever going to be able to stop, or am I just going to die like this?

I felt that from reading your thoughts. I was like, this feels so hopeless right now. You know, luckily I knew the end. I'd met you. So But, you know, one, one of the things that you talk about to cross over into real recovery is self-awareness. And it, you know, it's hard to admit, it's hard to admit something like this, but I just want to read this, this couple of sentences. I started becoming self-aware of my actions, especially when it came to the manipulation of men. The manipulation of men was my specialty. That's, that's not probably easy to admit and then actually have in print either, right? But yeah, how important was that self-awareness, and how could you tie that manipulation into why you started and why you kept using?

Oh goodness. Okay, so let me start with how I figured out I was manipulating men. Um, I was with my sponsor going through 4th step stuff And when I would have a resentment against a certain somebody, and I was like, oh, this is what this guy did to me. How dare him? He's like, didn't you just do that to the guy the other day you hooked up with? I was like, bitch, you're right. And so I that's when I started noticing like my emotional manipulation, and then I would like go back, and there was men New York, Florida, Vegas, Dominican, like all these places. That, like, I would find them online, a little chubby— like, a little chubby chaser, and I'm a big boy, so they loved it. And I would lead them on to think that there could be something more. I would buy a cheap plane ticket, like $80, and I'll be like, I bought my plane ticket, you need to take care of the rest. And for them to get that chance, they would do it. I was put up in hotels. I would make them pay for the dinner while I was there. And like, wow. And then when I got home, I'm like, you know what? I just, I just didn't feel the vibes. Like, I just wasn't into it.

Oh my God.

So you know how many free vacations I've gotten? It's crazy. Um, but, but see, I laugh about it now, but like, when I went through my first set of steps and I had to reach out to these people and tell them that like I used them, it was insanity. And they're like, girl, it's okay. I used you too. But, um, so that's one, that self-awareness. So now that I know those actions behind how I start the manipulation, when that comes out today, like especially with the, um, oh my God, what is it called? Like gaslighting. There we go.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I noticed that like that'll happen with coworkers, friends. Like the moment that something I've done starts to come back on me, I start, I immediately turn into the victim and then start gaslighting that other person to take that focus off of me. Um, but how that plays into my addiction, I would say like the manipulation of men. Like with the addiction, I would manipulate other addicts. So I would like— there was, um, my one of my drug dealer, he was a chub chaser. Um, that's one of the biggest like ways I got drugs for free was I led him on to think that I wanted to be with him, that I wanted to have a life with him and marry and marry him to only get the drugs. I'd be like, babe, I want to hang out with you sober. Like, and then like 45 minutes before I get to his house, I'm like, but you think you can get like 2 grams?

Mm-hmm.

And, um, he was the one that like supplied me. He was the one that introduced me to heroin, um, everything like that. And so like, I knew that the drug I could also manipulate as well. I was able to, like, if I went online to, like, find these guys that were hotter that I otherwise couldn't get, I'd be like, but how about I give you, like, some meth? And I mean, meth addicts sell their bodies. We do all kinds of crazy things to obtain the drugs. So many of these men, just for me to smoke them out or just give them a rock or two, were more than willing to play and more than willing to come over for sexual acts. So—

Interesting.

That's kind of like how, how I did it. I mean, there's a couple guys that if they had the meth, I would manipulate it and get my way in to just to be able to just go over there and smoke. Like, they'd be ugly as hell. Well, I mean, never mind, you know what, beauty is subjective. So they wouldn't be my type. And, um, but I'd be like, oh, you're so beautiful. And I'm like, okay, smoke it up. Wow.

So yeah, this is I'm having flashbacks because I was the person being manipulated quite often. Can— for the listeners, it probably seems like we should know, but what is a chub chaser? What is a chubby chaser?

All right, so I'm a big boy. And there's men specifically out there that only want fat guys. So there's been men that I've been with that are chubby chasers without meth that are Bodybuilders, personal trainers, models, and they would never be with somebody that looked like them. They only want somebody that is overweight, obese. Um, I, I have friends that, um, are in the chub chaser world. Well, I know people— I wouldn't say they're friends anymore, but there's like 2 or 3 of them that are very popular that they're very fit, they take care of themselves, and they would only date somebody if they're like 600 pounds or higher.

Wow.

Yeah, so like, don't get me wrong. I mean, I'm a big girl, but I'm not that big. But, but like, there are people out there that only will only be with somebody that's overweight. And so that's, that's what a chubby chaser is, is somebody that's just not a chubby guy that wants a fat guy.

Yeah. Do you feel— I mean, I guess it's okay to feel objectified. I mean, you feel like a, you know, you're I don't know. I'm trying to put myself in your—

So that's where we get into fetishism. So there's 2 different realms of chubby chaser that I call it. So there's the person that's just— it's an attraction.

Okay.

And then there's the objectification fetishism of it. So this side, we all have physical attraction. Personally, I'm not attracted to fat guys. That's just personal preference. I prefer more slender or muscular men.

Okay.

That's just what I prefer physically when I see somebody. So you have the men that are just— that's what they're attracted to. Then you have the people that fetishize it, that actually, when they talk to you, they talk to you like an object. I've had men pay me to make videos of me eating. And when they talk to me, they're like, well, how's the belly? They don't like— they don't— or what did you eat today? They don't talk to me as a person. It's more of an object. So that's where those 2 realms are.

Wow. Interesting. Interesting. Sorry. I just was very curious about that.

But don't worry. I made those videos. I made that money.

That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, and we've all, I mean, you know, we've all done that. I took a video of myself shitting one time. I'll just admit. Um, yeah, I didn't get paid for it though.

It's okay, I've done it too.

Free of charge, here you go. Oh my God. Okay, and so you are, through your sponsor, through the 12 steps, that you really uncovered a lot in that process. The 12 steps worked for you. I mean, yes.

So they are working there. I wouldn't say worked because it's always a work in progress, but yes, they're working for me.

Yeah, yeah, they're working for you. Uh, Great. Yes, yes. Okay. And so getting yourself through the 12 steps, getting yourself from— I mean, this is a lifetime of, of searching for approval from men. I mean, when you were before 18 years old, you admit in the book you had slept with over 300 men through Craigslist. You didn't even have internet. Right.

Well, yeah, Craigslist was on the internet, but yeah.

But I mean, yeah, but no apps. Yeah, apps and stuff.

Yeah. So yeah, how do you—

the momentum of all of that for all those years, and now you're going through the 12 steps, how did you uncouple meth from sex? And how did you get to the point where you could enjoy sober sex Without— and have you ever got to the point where you don't find yourself doing things to get approval from men?

Whoo, child. Okay. So let me tell you, when I, when I stopped meth, like all sexual drive was out the fucking window. It took some time to even like get a hard-on again. And I'm gonna— we're gonna be a little graphic, if that's okay.

But please, I just talked about me shitting on film. So I think we're okay.

Um, it was probably like 3 months until I even like masturbated for the first time. And I found myself masturbating to meth porn, like naked men smoking meth and stuff like that. It took me a long time. And the thing is, it was about self-discovery. So I had to find my sexuality outside of meth. Um, the men that I would fuck with while on meth, I wouldn't do that on the— in the sober realm. Uh, certain fetishes, fetishes when it came to like scat, for instance, we'll use that one because that seems to be a heavy one within our community for the gay world, for the meth world. Um, is in— I would— I've fed people before. Um, like if, if you're familiar with that, you know what that is. Um, if you're not, just somebody under you eating it while it's coming out of you. Yeah. Yeah, I've had people like urine. You drink urine and stuff like that. I've shit on top of people. But now when it comes to scat, because the experience I've had, it doesn't bother me. It's not a turn off. It's not a turn on. I don't purposely do it onto somebody. But like, I am. I'm sorry, but like, I'm not gonna like. prep myself every time I want to take some penis.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, we're just like— I like spontaneous sex. Yeah, if it happens, it happens. Who cares?

That's right.

Wipe it up, take a shower, get some baby wipes. Who gives a shit? Literally. Um, so that's allowed me to like break some walls down to where like if my partner wants to try something different, I'm like, okay, let's do it. And it's allowed me to be more open-minded.

Mm-hmm.

But also allowed me to know my triggers. Because like the bathhouse, for instance, like, I could not step foot in a bathhouse today. Because there's just too many triggers involved within a bathhouse. But when it comes to like kinky sex, like leather, I still got some like leather gear. But then about a month ago, I went through like all my fetish tote. There was some things I looked at, I was like, girl, why did I even have this? What the hell? Um, but the thing is, I'm always open for exploration. I mean, sex is a, um, like a huge thing that you could do. Like, there's so many different things you could do during sex. Um, I take things slower this time so it doesn't get so extreme. Um, I don't want to jump from you fucking me to You making me black out within 24 hours, like choking me. I would like, okay, maybe like let's have some sex. Okay, now let's introduce some slapping a week later, maybe some choking next month. Because I feel that's why a lot of people are into triads and open relationships is so they can have their normal lovely sex life with their partner, make passionate love, and then go get all that kinkiness and freakiness elsewhere.

Yeah, I agree. So I want to just pause here for a second. And if you're listening, this is the number one— this is the number one problem I get. The number one question is, you know, I've quit meth, but it broke me. So this is what I'm hearing so much of this now. I'm broken sexually. I'm broken. My parts are broken. And, and, and listen to what Holden says and listen to what I'm saying. I had the same experience is You can't just stop using meth and then go right into normal sex life because it— you have fucked— you have fucked yourself up. Okay. Um, and but if you— it takes some time. It's not forever. That's what I want people to understand. What I want you guys to understand is everything in life is temporary, including your dick will get hard again. You know, you will want to have sex again. You will get a desire back and a libido back, but you have to give it— give yourself some grace and some time and some patience to undo what you've done, right? But it does come back, and you're experiencing now— I mean, you have a partner now, right?

Yeah, and we have a very healthy sex life. Um, I would say my biggest recommendation with quitting is go back to what you did when you were like 14, first jacking off, is Take away the porn. We get into some very extreme porn when in our addiction. So normal porn just doesn't do it for us anymore. And you don't want to go back to the extreme because you don't want to like fall back into old habits. So again, strip all that away. Just sit with yourself in bed and just explore your own body again.

Yes.

Especially if you spent years in addiction, you like, you don't know yourself anymore. So explore your body, whether it takes you 3, 4 hours to masturbate by yourself with no porn, just do it. You have to learn to enjoy it with yourself again, before you can enjoy it with others again, sober. So I would just strip all the porn and strip all of that away. Just, you need to find yourself being a sexual being again, before you can like introduce other partners and other toys and And stuff like that. But yeah, no, me and my partner, he's not a drinker, never done meth. And like, we, yeah, we have a very healthy sex life.

Good. How long have you been together?

That's a weird question. Yeah, just because of like how we met. But yeah, no, I would say we've been living together. Let's just say that. We'll put that— we've been living together for like 2 months.

Okay, okay, okay, good. This is rather new. And so just what you're saying too, I want to underscore, is discovering your body, you know, and not using porn. That's— I love that advice. And that's what I have done for myself. I returned back, you know, I mean, and some of us listening, they had the, the, the fortune of having a phone and internet and accessible to to accessibility to porn as a teenager. However, try it, try it, try imagining your dream person and imagining them touching you the way you want to touch and, you know, just really get into it and find out what you like again.

Yeah.

And find out what intimacy means, right? Did you have to— what have you done in terms of that? Redefining intimacy?

I'm learning that I'm not just a fleshlight, essentially. That's what I'm used to. I'm used to a quick 5 to 10 minute fuck and then the person leaves. I mean, hell, not even 5 minutes most of the time. So like when me and my partner first started living together and it was like an hour long, I'm like, what the hell is happening? Like for me, I thought it was the fact that maybe like the lack of attraction, like maybe he was just having a hard time to finish. But come to learn it was because He enjoyed that moment, so he didn't want to rush it. So it's like learning that you can kiss, lay, just touch and feel each other without immediately going to penetration, doing a quick pump and dump. And I think we live in a world now where everything is like so fast to get done. Like we have to do everything quickly. TikTok is causing a lot of short span, like a short attention span now because of the scrolling. I mean, but that's been going on for years with Instagram and Facebook and, and everything. But like, most of the time when, when we enjoy sex, it's like almost an hour to 2 hours long because we want to just enjoy the time together.

Mm-hmm.

So intimacy, you have to learn that intimacy is possible, that it's not all about penetration, that it's not all about just getting that nut and leaving. Um, like RuPaul always used to say, we're just a lot of— we're just a squirrel, we're just trying to get a nut.

Yeah, yeah.

But it's not the case. Like, you have to learn how to enjoy your body again and your partner's body.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And you are now still involved with the 12 steps. You mentioned getting your chip tonight.

Yes, so it's an 18, and, and I do, um, NA, which is Narcotics Anonymous. And I did AA before, but I'm in South Florida. There's AA here, but NA is all over the place down here.

Yeah, that's right.

Um, so it's, um, yeah, I have 18 months. Um, I got it last week, but due to the flooding, um, the building was shut down for flooding. So, um, I'll be going to a meeting tonight to pick up 18 months, which, like, 18 months is fucking crazy. I, like, I look back and I'm just like, I, I couldn't go like— especially, God, the last towards the end, especially my last relapse, I couldn't go like 2 or 3 days without using, let alone a fucking 18 months with no, no drugs, no drink, no nothing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wow.

What would you say about what relapse has taught you toward the end? Like, did it, did it increase your awareness about why you were using, or what, what would you say you got out of it?

Don't be stupid. No, I'm kidding. Um, don't get— I, I allowed, um, what, um, like envy, like attraction to other people get in the way. Um, both my relapses had to do around men and going for sexual exploration. Um, there was a guy that I wanted to be with so bad. He was absolutely gorgeous. But like when I asked him out on a date, like two days later his partner was murdered. His like ex-partner was murdered, and so he was like just not in the right mindset to date. But we had a lot of fun together, and so he just hit me up out of the blue, and he's like, "Hey, want to come over? Like I have some dope." Da da da. And I was like, I came off my first relapse at this point, so I was like maybe sixty days clean again, and I was like, fuck it. Like I was horny. So I mean, it allows me to understand like my habits. I allow men, horniness, lust to get in the way of a lot of things. Thankfully, I have somebody now that doesn't drink, doesn't drug. So that's good. But I don't allow like, for me, a lot of times what happened was, if I don't like jerk off or masturbate for a long period of time, that's when my That's when I would allow a lot more stupid decisions to happen. That's when I would just drop everything, call into work, get on the apps, download them, make new profiles, and just jump to the first guy. Um, but now, like, just make sure you pleasure— I mean, for me at least, I had to pleasure myself regularly, at least once a week, to not get to that point of, um, craziness. But yeah, because I, I would make some stupid decisions for, uh, for other men.

Yeah, yeah, interesting. Yeah. Okay, so you have your own podcast, Sober Unicorn. What— where did that come from? What is your objective there?

So when I first got clean or sober, uh, or doesn't matter what term you use, um, I was trying to find a gay podcast, um, somebody that I can relate to. I did find a gay podcast. I'm not going to name the name because I don't want to throw anybody under the bus. But like, it was a friend couple— like, not a couple, just friends— and they would just talk about their recovery. And they were very anti-A, very anti-12-step, very anti-higher power. Um, they had an episode called Sober Celebs that they were talking about celebrities that were sober, and they were like kind of doubting other people's sobriety. Oh, I doubt she's sober. I'm like, that's not okay.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so I was like, I came up, I came up empty. So I was like, you know what, fuck it. Like, let's just do my own. I came out with my first episode only like 30 days clean. Um, so this was back in 2021, I think December. So the very end of the year. Uh, The Sober Unicorn. I've always been called a unicorn. I like unicorns. Um, and for me, I feel that Um, if you're able to get into recovery and get clean and sober and stay that way, like, you're— like, to me, you're a magical human. Because especially when it comes to meth, I believe it's 2% of people—

Yep.

That were addicted to meth stay clean off of meth.

That's right.

So, like, if you are a part of that 2%, you're, you're magical, you're amazing. And so to me, unicorns are magical, and who wouldn't want to be a fucking unicorn? So, like, Be a Unicorn in the Sea of Horses. And so I started that podcast. It's been good. I mean, I call it gay-hosted all-inclusive. Because at the end of the day, yes, gay people need a safe space too. But I don't believe that your sexuality should dictate being able to share your story.

Mm-hmm.

Like your podcast, for instance, you're— the focus is gay meth sex, essentially. So like keeping it in that niche is very important because The people tuning in is specific to that. My podcast, I've, I've, my, I've developed like a broad statement. I just do recovery. It's not specific to a certain drug or, um, or specific program. I've had people on there on MAT recovery, marijuana maintenance. I've had people that have done CBT. So I just want like a blanket. So I say gay hosted, all inclusive. I try to keep it at least 50% gay. Um, but listen, finding gay sober people ain't easy. Yeah. So yeah, um, I have to sprinkle, sprinkle some straight people up in there.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I've had to as well already a little bit. Um, the, the other author I had, um, from— she's, uh, Mary Beth O'Connor, From Junkie to Judge. She shot up, she shot up meth, and what she would do was sit at the dining room table with a cigarette do crosswords for hours. And I told her, I was like, there ain't no gay man ever said, I shot meth up and did a crossword. Never. Yeah. So the differences, though, I thought were interesting. And the similarities, you know, so I have kind of loosened up. And then I have next, I don't know, coming up, a gay guy who was a heroin addict. But at the end of the day, there are, again, you take what's similar and you take, you know, what isn't and go from there. So anyway, I enjoy your podcast.

Thank you.

You do a really good job of, and I, you know, I kind of watched, rewatched some to actually get some pointers for me on how to interview people and not take over the conversation. I gotta do that.

I've started doing that, but it's because I'm getting people on that just like they breeze through their story.

Yeah.

And they kind of run out and I'm like, then I look at the time, that's like 12 minutes in. I'm like, well, fuck.

Um, yeah.

So, but this, I was, I'm really surprised on how much time we've, we've talked today. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's juicy. You got a juicy, you got a juicy book here. Um, and you're, you're working in recovery now?

Yes. So I work at a corporate office for a recovery center. Um, I just fell into the job. Like, it's not like I'm like, oh, I'm in recovery, let's go work in recovery too. So, okay, I fell into the job. It's been a huge blessing. Great company so far, good people I work with. Um, but let me tell you, if you ever want to get into recovery and work in there, Remember, your recovery and working recovery is 2 different things. Do not replace your recovery with just working recovery because it won't work.

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, interesting. Yeah, and I'm gonna say too, a lot of you get sober and you immediately— and, and I, and I was the same way because you talk about pink cloud in your book too, but you immediately want to turn around and start helping. other guys, you know, pull them up out of the ditch. And you did your, your podcast 30 days in, which is pretty, pretty sick.

Yeah.

But I just want to caution you in that it's that whole adage of putting your life mask on first before you try to help someone else's. You really have to be secure in your recovery, especially if you're going to help other men who might be attractive who are using meth, and you haven't been out of your sobriety that long, it's a risk.

It's more—

and this is another reason why this is a different drug and a different type of recovery. Because there's the sexual attraction there that adds to the triggers, the cravings, and the riskiness of trying to help another man through this. Yeah.

Well, the thing is, especially if you're 30 days in and you have a job at a treatment center and you have to do the intake on a client, you can have a bag of meth fall out of their ass and you have to be good enough in your recovery not to just pick that up and be like, oh, let me slip this in my pocket. Um, as well. But yeah, no, 30 days in, I mean, and if anybody's been listening to my podcast from the beginning, they'll see how I was 30 days in.

Mm-hmm.

And then episode 46 was my first relapse, and then episode whatever was my second relapse. So the thing is, anybody that was listening to it from the beginning saw my struggle. They saw my downfall. Um, and that was that— listen, that episode 46, man, was so hard to record because here I was on a platform saying recovery is possible.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm sitting there smoking meth. I literally recorded, um, Charlie, He's another author that I interviewed. I interviewed him about his second book. While the episode was converting, I got dressed and we got high.

Wow.

Yeah. Yeah, that's— but now I'm like 18 months in. Everything's great. Recovery strong.

Yeah, that's so meaningful. And I suggest if you're listening, Go to Sober Unicorn Podcast and listen to those episodes. I think that's so meaningful for you to be that honest, because honesty to me is the best way to break free from this.

Mm-hmm.

Be— people come, guys come to me, their partner doesn't know they're using, their family doesn't know. You know, I tell the person who it makes you scared the most to tell. You know that you think is going to destroy your life the most by telling. Tell that person. Be that honest, you know? Yeah, yeah. Okay, Holden. Was there anything that I did not mention today that I should have mentioned that you wish was in the podcast, or what did I miss?

Nothing. Honestly, you did an amazing job.

Thank you.

You kept me on my toes, which is good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. Good. I'm glad to hear that. All right. So I'm going to put all the links to Holden's book in the show notes, to his podcast and anything else, your Linktree probably in the podcast. Go check him out. Also, if you, you know, if you are interested in writing your memoir, I suggest starting with journaling. And I just happen to sell a journaling template that you can check out. And in the little journaling guide, and you can find that on my profile. Put the link in the show notes as well. Have a great day, guys, and we will see you next week. Bye.