EP 1:26 HIV: My Fabulous Disease with Mark S. King

And I believe it will take at least another generation before we're able to put it kind of into proper perspective and not see it as something to recoil from. You know, it's only been in the last 10 years that we've had the U equals U message, undetectable equals untransmittable, meaning I'm on successful treatment, therefore my virus is suppressed. Meaning I cannot transmit it sexually to you.

Welcome to the Aftermath Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create a repository of resources for current and past addicts, as well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermath. Trigger warning, this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey and you feel like you could be triggered by discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, Please do not listen to this podcast. All right, now on with the show. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I would say this is our celebrity edition. Oh, your light is still flickering. Um, anybody who has slept with Rock Hudson is a celebrity to me. I was reading about that recently, so we may talk about that later. Um, Mark S. King is on the podcast. This week, Mark S. King has been writing about gay life, sex, and survival since testing HIV positive in 1985. His blog, My Famous Fabulous Disease— sorry— has been nominated 7 times for a GLAAD Media Award, winning in 2020. By the way, GLAAD means Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation. King has also been named LGBTQ Journalist of the Year by NLGJA, which is the Association of LGBTQ Journalists. King lives in Atlanta with his husband Michael. Welcome to the show, Mark.

Thank you very much. I really, I, I really appreciate the invitation.

Okay, thank you. Well, I'm just going to jump right in. Um, I— those of you listening know that I'm— what to do as far as rate, review the podcast, please. Uh, but this podcast Specifically, um, is not just about addiction and not just about meth addiction, but what many of us in the meth addiction sphere face, which is living with HIV. And so I want you to share this podcast with as many people as possible. I want you to all buy this book, Mark S. King, My Fabulous Disease.

I see it. I see a placeholder on there. I see you've got a placeholder. I wonder if that shows how much you've read of it. I'm trying to— I'm trying to see, have you read it all or not? I always tell people the worst thing is not when somebody says, I haven't read your book. The worst thing is when they say, I've read some of it.

That's the worst.

That's the worst. Yeah.

I lost interest. Yeah, right.

Yeah. You know, I just, I could put it down. Yeah, right.

I could put it down.

I could put it down.

I actually have a marker of a little excerpt I want to read.

Ah, okay.

Actually, so there you go.

All right.

Um, so I want to start with a story of my own, and you are such a, a master storyteller, but I want to tell just a little story of my own that's going to lead into a question. And that is, so recently, um, I had a friend of mine who I'd known for years. Um, we were only friends, there was not a sexual relationship. Um, he, uh, got a late night, uh, early morning text. I happened to be awake, which is uncommon. It was very sexual in nature, and I was like, oh wow, this could be fun. I was always attracted to him, close to my age and attractive, which is hard for me to find. Also an emotional connection that had already been established, which is hard for me to find. And so I was excited about this. I got the message that I needed to rush before he passed out. You, you've probably been there before. And so I get over there to the house and, you know, things get going. And I had told him, so this was, it was arranged that I would be the bottom in this situation. And I had told him, you know, you're rushing me, so I'm not, I don't know what's happening down below. Which, by the way, your story about the hose, I have, is hilarious because I have, I have such a similar experience. But anyway, um, so we're getting into it, and, you know, nothing's off bounds on— out of bounds on this podcast, by the way. So he's like an inch in and asked me if I'm clean. And so I, in my mind, um, you know, I'm still— my mind is still kind of like, what's going on down there, uh, in my booty hole, right? So in my mind, I thought that's what he meant. And so I say, well, I told you, like, I'll need to maybe clean out or whatever. And he says, no, are you clean?

Hmm.

And so in that moment, um, I realized, I guess we've never had the conversation I thought we had. You know, we've known each other for so long, it's plastered all over my social media. Um, and so I say, well, no, I think you know. That I have— I'm HIV positive. And the, the quickness of pulling out from me and recoiling from my body caused this wave of just complete and utter shame, embarrassment. And I think it was even worse because it was someone I knew. So what turned what I thought was going to be such a great sexual experience turned out to be even worse. And not only that, was after that night, he broke— he dissolved the relationship. He stopped texting me back. And so even when I would try to force him to reply, it would be something superficial. And so I needed so badly for some type of approval or validation or some type of note to say, You know, I know you're not dirty. You know, I know that you're not a diseased leper that needs to be sent out, you know, and live in a cave. I needed that. And I— and then I— and then I went into the whole spiral of, well, he was just friends with me in hopes of sex. You know, that's a whole other issue. So my question for you is, why do you think in this day and age that we're living in, That we are still asking each other if we're clean, that there's the education is not there in our community, and and and and a lack of empathy. Why are we still dealing with this, in your opinion?

Well, first of all, I'm really sorry that happened to you.

Thank you.

I do know how how. How terrible it is and how it reduces us. Just, it reduces our whole being when someone does that to us. I've certainly gotten my share. My favorite is being called in a comment, a vile merchant of death, which I thought had a nice poetic ring to it. I feel as if, and I say this a lot, I have to have a generosity of spirit toward those people who are ignorant, who don't know any better, not willfully ignorant, but ignorant. And I'm not in any way excusing this person who from your description, probably should know better.

Mm-hmm.

However, we have lived with this virus for 4 decades now. For most of that time, it was a death sentence and something that was an absolutely horrifying way to go. And that sinks in deep into our culture, into our collective psyche, especially as gay men. And I believe it will take at least another generation before we're able to put it kind of into proper perspective and not see it as something to recoil from. You know, it's only been in the last 10 years that we've had the U equals U message, undetectable equals untransmittable, meaning I'm on successful treatment. Therefore, my virus is suppressed. Meaning I cannot transmit it sexually to you. Proven science, we know it to be a fact. It's still news to a lot of people. And even to the people for whom it is news or is not news, even when it's not news, they still have all that old stuff. You know, the old tapes we talk about in recovery?

Yeah.

They've still got all of those old tapes telling them this is dangerous, it's a death sentence. And not only even if I get it, even if I don't die, I'm going to be socially marked.

Yeah.

And labeled, you know, as a vile merchant of death or whatever. And so I guess what I'm saying is I have to remember that it's not all about me. Sometimes it is about, you know, everything that that person came with. Right. And I've done my share of educating people sitting on the edge of the bed. My policy was always, I'm either gonna educate you or fuck you, but I'm not gonna do both. You know, I don't mind educating you, but then I'm not gonna fuck you because I'm not gonna do it so that I can then—

That's right.

Fuck you. So I'll do one or the other. Or at least there should be a, I don't know, a 3-week grace period. I don't know. I never really thought out the rules, but I guess again, to answer your question, we are still dealing with it because every single day somebody comes of age, somebody starts having sex for the first time, somebody comes to terms with their sexuality. And this, all this information did not just come, did not, they did not soak it in through osmosis. They haven't been paying attention. They don't read public health campaigns.

Yeah.

And so they have to learn it. And so that generosity of spirit I'm talking about, not that you didn't exhibit generosity, you were hurt. And I don't want to take that away from you. And that's what ignorance does, if not outright contempt or hatred. But let's just go with ignorance and be nice about it.

Yeah.

You know, every day somebody's coming to terms, coming new into the situation, and they may not know. Or they may have been around long enough, like me, to remember how terrible it is. And, you know, it's not like U=U happened and suddenly all the HIV-negative guys were like, okay, sure, go ahead, fuck me, come in me, I'm good with that.

Yeah.

You know, uh, old habits die hard, old injuries, uh, scar, uh, you know, it takes a while. I guess that's my answer.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. And that was kind of going to be my next question about generosity of spirit and how much empathy we have, because I've noticed anecdotally there's a big difference between the responses that I get where I live in the Bible Belt compared to—

Where do you live?

South Carolina.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, you know, I'm in Atlanta, so I know how y'all are.

That's right.

Yeah.

And, and what is our responsibility as men living with HIV in terms of— because I oscillate between bless your heart and you stupid ignorant motherfucker, you know. And because— and there's a correlation between being asked if you're clean and in that same profile is probably mask for mask too, you know. There's a correlation there to me that I have studied. I love to study these, these these behaviors. But, and so that was going to be my question is, what is our role? You know, do we show the ultimate empathy and generosity of spirit to appreciate where they are, how they brought up and their culture? Or, you know, or are we right by being angry? Or both?

Well, I think we're certainly right by anger. Interesting word, because I have discovered in my recovery process that I only have so much bandwidth for righteous anger. Righteous anger is so satisfying. You know, it's so satisfying when you know you have every right.

Yeah.

You know, and I can go in there deep and get lost in a rabbit hole online with the Trump messaging and all of that stuff. Right?

Right.

So righteous anger is incredibly satisfying. And And is appropriate from time to time. It's also true that what I've discovered in my own recovery process is that I cannot afford it.

Yeah.

Or I can't afford a lot of it. I have to be very, very miserly about when I display it and why. And it's funny, a lot of times it comes out in my writing. That seems like a safer place for me to exhume anger and resentment and all of those negative emotions, you know, whether they're righteous or not. So, you know, it's like, if you're asking me as a person living with HIV, if I have a right to be angry or resentful or over it or impatient about ignorance, Of course I do. Certainly I do. I have to be careful and not blanket everybody with that because it depends on who they are, where they're coming from, how new are they to the scene, what do they not know through no fault of their own, you know, all of those things to consider. But fear is a powerful thing. And that drives most of this, as does getting over fear, which drives most of our recovery. process, right? I feel as if fear is so powerful and it sounds like I'm really giving these ignorant bitches a break, right? And in a way I am because it's better for my spiritual well-being.

That's right.

And those that really don't know any better or are just led by fear, I get that. I understand fear.

Yeah.

Because I'm old enough to remember when HIV or AIDS and GRID and the early names for it arrived on the scene. Those people being kicked out by their roommate weren't all straight roommates. You know, I remember a time where you couldn't get a manicure in West Hollywood If they knew you were positive.

Wow.

Or my hairdresser referred me to somebody else.

Wow.

You know, so it's, you know, I don't want to be quick to assign that sort of ignorance to people who are just hateful to the gays or to us as some sort of group. Fear is powerful. We were all scared shitless.

Yeah.

And we acted like it. And people like me, before I tested positive in '85, when the thing was just beginning, it was funny how quick I was to separate out. Again, like we do in recovery, we don't want to be amongst these group of addicts. I must be better than them somehow. How did I end up in this room? You know, that sort of thing. I felt the same way when AIDS was starting. I'm like, oh, well, that must happen to really sleazy people. It couldn't be be me, me who was going to the baths every Saturday night. You know, that must be people who are into really weird shit. You know, I was so quick to separate out because what was the alternative? I might die. You know, I mean, I was afraid. And fear leads to separating out. It leads to denial. It leads to pointing a finger at somebody else. You get the idea. I'm talking too much.

Yeah.

Well, somebody has to, I guess, right?

Exactly. That's exactly right. Thank you. Yeah, and I, I think for— I, I do know, and I'm speaking, I'm speaking for a lot of guys that I'm talking to too, the anger comes from— for me it does— it's anchored in fear. Fear of being rejected, fear of being found out as dirty. And, you know, I mean, the anger is not really toward that person. It's, it's something internal. So I think that's a good lesson. Well, listen, speaking of the marker in your book, um, I think my favorite— and it's, it, we're leading right into that in terms of shame— I think my favorite essay is, um, is Shame Is a Drag. And because I, I, I, um, really resonate with that story— I had a similar story— and with the message. And so For those of you that haven't read the book, please do. But that essay is, Mark, you performed a Broadway tune for a neighbor in your living room, and it seemed to embarrass your mom, and you felt some shame about that. And it seemed to me— I don't want to speak for you— but the message that you received, and I know that I received, was that being your true self and not being a real boy is wrong and shameful. And so we tuck those things away, and that's the message we take with us. And so later on in your life, you became a drag queen on the DL, and then in your meth addiction, you put the dress and the, and the wig away in the closet. Because, you know, when we're on meth, we have to be as masc as possible. I know for me, I always had a baseball cap on backwards and tried to be as masculine and straight acting as I could because it felt like that's what everyone needed in that community. Again, I'm in the South. But anyway, when I'm— and then once you got into recovery, you got out the dress and the wig and you felt, you know, free and liberating. And that's the excerpt I want to read. It's strange how those things about which we feel the most shame shame are also able to liberate us. Okay, my HIV status, my drug addiction, my drag personality— as I have embraced each of these, I have found self-acceptance and a way to carry a message. And so I guess my question is to those of us who are in recovery and we still have our— wow, emotions, sorry— we still have our, uh, drag dress figuratively in the closet. We're disconnected and, and still afraid to be gay because crystal meth gave us a pass and let us feel okay to be gay for a little while and explore our gayness. Um, but in terms of that, could you talk about your process in becoming comfortable with your— in your skin again, or for the first time?

Absolutely. Hold that thought. Keep running the film. Oh, I put her away. God damn it.

It would have been good.

She's in the other closet. I wanted to get out my drag bag for you, um, and just show you the sparkly dress.

Yeah, I would love to.

She exists in a, in a duffel bag, um, and, uh, I remember when I was using, um, in my trunk there would always be The duffel bag with the drag dress and then another bag with the chaps and stuff and another bag with the toys and whatnot, you know. So I was ready for anything, you know.

Anita Mann was her name, right?

Anita Mann. Yes. And I've forgotten your question.

Well, I'm asking for those of us who aren't there yet, what was the process for you to become comfortable in your drag again and basically become comfortable in your own skin?

Well, you know what I had done done is, is, uh, through a weird circumstance. It was a contest. It was, uh, an AIDS benefit, and they needed more contestants for this drag AIDS benefit. Really, that's why I was forced to do it. And, um, uh, and I kind of was, but it was fun, and, and it turned out to be hilarious. And then I joined this troupe called the Armorettes, who anyone near Atlanta knows. The Armorettes, they're— Iconic and have been around for 40 years, are raising money $1 at a time for AIDS. And they're a comedy drag. And so these guys were hilarious. I mean, they were amazing. And, and it was so much fun to do. But it was on a Sunday night. And man, I would show up. And this is, this is, I was a bigger, buffer man.

Yeah.

Back then.

I saw the Marcus—

For you to know this. Yeah, I see. I want you to know how big my arms were, you know. And, and so I would show up in my tank top and my tight jeans, you know, and then go into the dressing room and get into drag. And as soon as I would finish my number, get out of drag in the dressing room so that I would then present, you know, in all of my swagger.

Yeah.

You know, as soon as I walked out of that dressing room. And it was something, it was about, yes, this is fun. And it's an enter— and I'm an entertainer, not a drag queen, like, okay.

Right.

And I think what it became about was finding authenticity and having fun. You know, now I do Anita at recovery events. I just did her her. See, I still have a certain distance, right? I did her. Anita appeared. I wasn't there at an event just a couple of months ago for our local clubhouse and sang a little song live and did some comedy. And it's about kind of reclaiming that part of me that's just fun and wants to be an entertainer and wants to laugh. You know, I think there were a few years there that I'm not sure if I had an authentic laugh. You know, maybe a grimace.

Oh, yeah.

You know, with lots of, you know, kind of strange, you know, tics with it because I was so high, you know. And I, I, isn't that funny, though? how much we're searching on that during that time for adventure and fun and party.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

And there's so much, so little joy to be had. Well, I mean, I'm telling you this, you know, I mean, the guy that talks about that, you know, but can I just say something?

Sure.

I, you know, this topic of HIV and meth, which, you know, I— you're absolutely right. It is such a big intersection for us, um, and for a few reasons, I think. One is, um, a lot of us are HIV positive as a fairly direct result of our using.

Yep.

Um, and then there are those of us who were already positive, um, are long-term survivors like myself. I felt as if my 20s and a good chunk of my 30s, most of them actually, were stolen from me.

Hmm.

And there's nothing worse than a drama queen with legitimate drama on their hands that they can exploit. I was that— I was that drama queen with legitimate drama. You have no idea what I went through.

Yeah.

Watching all my friends die in the '80s living in West Hollywood. You have no idea. Well, you might have a fairly good idea because my first book tells that story and the beginning of the drug addiction. But, what I'm saying is that I had this sense of entitlement. My youth was stolen, all of my friends died, you don't know what it was like. And so, I am entitled to the party.

Yeah.

And so in my late 30s, I got the gym membership and the trainer and the steroids and was introduced to crystal meth and was dancing on boxes at circuit parties. And I was a pointer. I danced like this.

Yeah, I like that.

And up above everybody. Yeah, right, right. You know, my husband loves that. Show me how you dance again.

Yeah, right.

So I thought that's what I had missed. And it was my day in the sun. It was my chance to retrieve, regain all of that, you know, stuff that I might have enjoyed in my 20s. Like I didn't. Like I wasn't going to the— like I wasn't getting laid plenty in my 20s. But it seemed a good— as good a reason as any, right? Um, so again, what I'm saying is that that intersection of HIV and meth, it's woven so tightly with, uh, with, uh, our, our addiction, regardless of what it might have been, either for long-term survivors like me That saw meth as a as escapist behavior, as something to do because we felt entitled, or as you know David Fawcett writes very very very well about the intersections of sex, meth, and HIV, and the sense of risk-taking and taboo, and giving your pos load, and all of that. So that it's no wonder I still get invitations online. I don't know, maybe I'll— maybe I've posted a picture on Twitter that's vaguely ginger daddy and I will get invitations to, why don't you go off your meds and fuck me, you know, sort of stuff.

Yeah. Yeah.

So that sense of taboo and escapist behavior or covering up past trauma, it's all— it's just funny. I mean, to me how— and I wonder, Dallas, how often does HIV come up in your conversations, in your podcasts with clients and all of that? I'm just curious as an HIV writer. Is it a constant? Is it half the time? Is— what is it?

So I would say, um, between my clients, the people that we— that I interview here, um, all the people that I talk with, um, online that are messaging me, um, HIV comes up, um, I would say in 80% of our conversations. Um, wow. I have been— one reason I really wanted you on is I have had feedback that I don't talk about it Oh, wow. I talk, I talk about it a lot in my content, um, you know, about trying to, you know, trying to reach out. Because what I see is those that are in addiction, when they get the HIV diagnosis, which most of the men that I talk to say they're always expecting it at any minute, you know, because of what you said. So Dr. Fawcett was actually on another podcast Um, that hasn't aired yet, but is that, you know, we, we lose inhibitions, we try to be risky, we lose our logical thoughts. We, you know, um, when you're on this drug, you, you lose all of that, and taboo goes out the window. Your sexual template is erased. And so you do things like, um, bug chase, as they say. Um, I, when I contracted HIV, was paused. by a gentleman who knew he had it, um, and after we were finished said, congratulations, you have AIDS, to me. Um, it was a fetish of his. Um, and so I see 2 things when the diagnosis hits. They either pull back like I did and stop— I stopped using for 4 months because I thought that was my rock bottom— um, or they go on a spiral of, well, you know, I'm already gonna die, quote unquote. Um, I'm already damaged, so I'm just gonna— I'm gonna go— I'm gonna go all the fuck, all the way in. I'm gonna do it everywhere to everybody as much as I can, you know.

Yeah.

Um, I see both going on, um, and both will lead— and I waited 4 months, but then I— when I went back, I went back hard. I was on a death wish, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah. Um, so it's— we're already carrying shame for being gay. We're carrying shame for specifically being a meth addict. You know, I have a lot of, a lot of guys who are gay meth addicts who will go to an AA meeting because they don't want to admit they have a meth problem. Um, and you mentioned, um, in one of your essays about a gentleman dying of meth overdose in No one talking about why, how he died. And that recently happened near here. There was a gentleman who died of a meth overdose. There was no obituary. No one talked about it. And it's, we're so stigmatized. So we carry the shame of being a meth addict. Then we carry shame of having HIV. It's just such a triple whammy for, for us.

Yeah, you know, there is a lot of parallel between When I see people die of overdose, which happens, has happened in my life recently, and they're being just like, you know, died suddenly on Sunday at the age of 37.

Yep.

Services will be held, et cetera, et cetera. You know, there's something to be said for, you know, privacy of the family, et cetera, et cetera. There's another thing to be said for we are in an epidemic.

That's right.

It is killing us.

That's right.

And it is so familiar to me. I remember when obituaries didn't mention how they died because of shame, and it only made things worse. It put a curtain up to what was really going on. You know, we got to name it. We have to name it. And it is simply the truth. It is not to be, you know, this is, we're just trying to tell the truth here.

That's right.

And yeah. And so I do try to name it. I've told 2 of my editors at magazines that I write for, If I die early, and of course, tick-tock, that deadline's fast approaching. If I die early, which what is early? I'm already 63. But anyway, you better write that I was a drug addict.

Yeah.

You better write that I was because, well, just because. Yeah. So, yeah, I think it's— I can't believe we're not, and it's too bad.

It is too bad. And I just, I, I wanted to ask you about your opinion too. And this is what I asked Dr. Fawcett, is how can we as individuals start this dialogue and get it more open? I know I, I'm not a hero here. I'm just saying I use my platforms to, for, to try to start this dialogue in this community, um, because it, it needs to be named, like you said, and, and talked about. It's being compared to the the next AIDS crisis by some people. Um, and we're not only losing men physically, but we're losing them psychologically. That there are wings of hospitals where the psychosis of this new crystal meth is lasting way beyond, uh, coming down. It's a— it's, it's permanent psychosis. Um, so we're losing men, uh, mentally as well. Um, and it's just, it— I, I— there's this sense that there's no gay, uh, leaders in the community to me speaking about it. Um, there's this sense that it's going to take away, make us look like deviants, or take away from our sexual freedoms. What do you think about that?

Yeah, I, um, We have a problem and there's a good reason for it. We have always been more susceptible to alcohol and drug addiction. We just always have. And, you know, there's— it's not a mystery as to why, right?

Right.

We grow up feeling less than and being told that we are. And so, so there, I believe that we are better. We have a better understanding of addiction and maybe more empathy toward addiction in our culture than we once did. But it's funny, the public awareness of meth addiction kind of wafts in and out of gay community. Now, let's say, first of all, it's not a gay addiction. It's very culturally specific to gay men. We have a certain fetish around meth in a certain way that we like to use it and celebrate it and all of that. But You know, started with Nazis. Yeah, you know, that's right. With Nazis, right? You know, we're going back a long way, you know, truckers and Appalachia and all that stuff, you know.

And housewives.

Oh, yes. Right. And so, you know, but leave it to the gays to brand meth in their own way.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, Party, Tina, all of that, you know, leave it to us to make it, to turn it into You know, this bit of branding, and I think that most people just they don't know what to do with it. You know, I mean, gay leaders don't know what to do with it, and and I I don't even know if they're caught up in the politics of it. Oh, we won't look too bad because I don't believe that they're that so unfeeling that they wouldn't try to help people that desperately need help because it might look bad. I mean, you know, come on. I don't really think that's the case.

Okay.

I don't know why it wafts in and out. I think it's because it is so serious and so it seems it's a hard fight and we're not sure exactly what to do with it. With mental illness, with addiction, with all of these things, There are no easy answers to any of this, but absolutely. And Dallas, good for you. Or shall I call you Dr. Bragg? Dallas is fine. Dallas is fine. Okay. I feel as if, you know, good on you for doing this. I try to do my part. It's funny, I didn't write about it for a long time, or very, very rarely would I write about it. about my meth addiction or my recovery process, any of that. It just, it's, there were times that I wrote about it early on. And I didn't know what I didn't know. And I shouldn't have been writing about it. I had no business writing about it. It was self-pitying.

Oh.

You know, you could tell anybody sitting where we are now reading that stuff would go, Oh, girl, keep coming back. You know, so, and my recovery process felt just so precious and fragile that I didn't, I didn't want to jinx it or fuck it up. I hate talking about my recovery time, the amount of time I have, only because through 20 years of recovery process, there have been many relapses along the way.

Thank you for saying that.

And, I feel as if as soon as I say so on a podcast, I jinxed myself.

That's right.

And then, by the time you get this online, Marc will be like— So, I mean, it's not that often or that fragile, don't get me wrong, but You know, it's a process and it'll be a lifelong process. And, and I'll just leave it at that.

Would you— is it okay for me to ask then, though, about your process for those of us who can't seem to stop or the people listening to this?

Oh, well, sure. I mean, my, you know, I feel as if there's more than one way to skin a cat. And if 12-step groups were the only option, there are not enough church basements in the world to fill, to hold all the people that would need it. Is that right? And clearly more people than that are getting clean.

That's right.

So, you know, there are other options or other ways and people use, you know, go to therapy and they work with their church or they And all of that, I'm like, good, whatever works for you. I'm not a big book thumper. That being said, I use a 12-step program, Crystal Meth Anonymous.

Okay.

And I use it because it gives me a daily option. It's not like therapy once a week. It's great therapy for me. It is. I get a lot out of it. During COVID I did a lot of online meetings and fortunately those meetings still exist. There's even an HIV and meth meeting that happens.

Oh, nice.

I think it's out of San Francisco. Well, you can find out about those meetings at crystalmeth.org and find a meeting online near you. It doesn't matter where you live. And it's funny, we all kind of like Looked down our noses at those Zoom meetings when they first started, but we looked down our noses at everything, the gays. I think it's funny that we have— well, it's not funny. I understand it and I appreciate it, but it's easy to see it as funny that we have crystal meth at all. In other words, Crystal Meth Anonymous at all. In other words, like, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not an alcoholic. I'm a drug addict. No, wait, Narcotics Anonymous, that's not specific enough for me. Yeah, we need our own. So we're going to go over here and we're going to start our own. And, you know, and, you know, and that anniversary is coming up in September. Did you know that? September will be 30 years anniversary of the founding of Crystal Meth Anonymous.

Yes.

And, and we're doing a special thing here in Atlanta for it of of course, it was founded in Los Angeles by a guy named Bill. Yeah. Anyway, thank God they did. Because yes, there are very specific aspects of this particular addiction that are helpful to be able to speak about freely.

That's right.

And not feel like a freak, you know, or something. Yeah. And even amongst, you know, the meetings I go to are not entirely gay men. They're mostly, But there are women, there are Black men and women, it's not all white gay men, who find some comfort there and, and identity there that they, they may not otherwise. That is what works for me. It works for me because there's certain aspects of it that don't work for me. And that's okay.

You know, I love that.

I draw from that, which is the most useful. I try to keep an open mind about all of it. I'm not against any of it. I'm just saying, as with anything, there are things that really seem to— I can walk into and it makes sense to me and useful. I have a sponsor, I talk to him on a regular basis. I have a a book of daily meditations, which is a real challenge for me. I'm not a big meditator, Dallas.

Okay.

Not a big meditator.

No?

Or prayer. No, I am not. And really, and I'm trying to be willing in all of those things, I think my most meditative time is when I'm writing.

Yeah.

Because I'm here right in this moment. I am in the moment. It's quiet. I don't have music playing. I don't have the TV on. It is quiet in the house. And, and there's something about that quiet, because even though I'm thinking about what it is I'm writing, my mind wanders. And I find myself sitting back and just thinking or being in the moment, you know, about whatever it is. It's usually because I'm searching for a word, a perfectly typical word that me, the award-winning writer, can't seem to get. And I'm thinking about what that word is. And then suddenly my mind wanders off. But anyway, and it becomes a meditative moment.

Yeah.

And then The other meditative moment I can count on is between the Serenity Prayers that are said during a meeting at the beginning and at the end. During that time, I am locked in. I am listening. I'm quiet. My breathing slows down. I'm relaxed.

Yeah.

And I think that might be why a lot of people say, oh, I feel so much better after meeting him. I think it's just because I've just spent an hour Being calm, yeah, and breathing, yeah, you know, yeah, and and being all right. Um, hmm, I love that.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, thank you for sharing your personal journey there. Um, so I have a few questions that have been sent to me. If you wouldn't mind, kind of a.

We don't have to do rapid fire, but, um, you have questions that have been sent. Did you say sent to you?

Sent to me, and that around, around HIV that I thought I would ask you.

Really?

Yeah.

Oh, great.

I mean, um, but I get asked this, this question repeatedly is, when should I disclose my status to— on a dating app or when I'm meeting someone? for a romantic relationship? What's your opinion on that?

Um, gosh, first of all, everybody's in a different situation in terms of safety. Is it safe for them to disclose? There are a lot of people for whom disclosure means real danger to them mentally, physically. They could be in physical danger by disclosing. And so they don't until they feel as if they absolutely have to. The question is, when do you absolutely have to? Right?

Right.

And for that, I think the answer has something to do with intimacy. And when you feel intimate enough, you know, emotionally, romantically with this person, to want them to know that. And you think to yourself, I think what is helpful is this person who you're getting to know, do you know them well enough to put yourself in their shoes? And ask yourself, when would they want me to tell them? When would they want me to tell them?

Yeah.

Would they want me to tell them before I had sex with them? And, and is that fair? And if it is, then should you? I believe that, that you're not entitled to private medical information of mine by virtue of the fact that I'm going out with you. You know, you want to turn over your medical records to me? You know, let me see when you were diagnosed with herpes. What year was that? You know, because that herpes is probably more transmittable.

Yep.

Than my HIV.

Yep.

And that asks the question, if I pose no physical threat to you, when and how should I disclose? When is that? And what is the context of that disclosure? If my dick appears to you through a glory hole, does it need to disclose before you put your mouth around it? Right?

I mean, seriously, a little sign hung on it or something. Right.

Should it be tattooed somehow? So, and I mean, that's a serious question. Context. When you walk into a sex club and know you're walking into dark spaces, do you feel entitled to know the private medical information of everybody in that room or just that one piece of information? You don't care about the syphilis or the herpes or the hepatitis C. You just want to know about HIV. First of all, how ignorant is that? But then, second of all, what if they pose no threat to you? What if the fact that they survived prostate cancer 2 years ago poses no threat to you? You still want to know that? And, I know that's a challenge for people to get because, again, we're so afraid of HIV and all of our expectations and fears are wrapped around that one viral particle as opposed to all the other ones floating around that could do us damage, right? Um, I don't think people are entitled to that information. That being said, there are still, um, over 2 dozen states in this country that have, um, uh, anti— that have criminalization laws, that have statutes, um, where you cannot, um, uh, you, you must disclose your HIV status Prior to sex with somebody. So you should find out what yours says. And if you don't think that that can happen to you, it can. There are people sitting right now and serving very long jail sentences because they copped a plea to go ahead, even though they didn't infect anybody.

Wow.

Even though they used a condom, even though they were undetectable, they are in jail right now. Because they didn't want to risk going to a jury for these charges.

Wow.

A jury who would take one look at this HIV-positive person sitting in the courtroom and go, they don't deserve my sympathy. They shouldn't have been having sex at all. I don't know what this undetectable stuff is, but that person should not be having sex. That vile merchant of death. So instead of risking that, they cop a plea, are labeled a sex offender, and you know this is real stuff. It's happening every day. We're getting better at it. We're changing those statutes. That's a state statute. You got to go state by state, and we've changed the statutes in now I think eight or ten states. So the work is being done, but unfortunately that is something that you want to consider. You want to know what your legal rights are or what— you might want to know what you're risking. But otherwise, from purely a scientific point of view, from an ethical point of view, you have no obligation to share private medical information if you know you're putting them at no risk, period.

Thank you. Awesome. Thank you. Okay, well, the second one you've already answered. The third one we've talked about too. Um, okay, this is a question. So a lot of my, um, content and this podcast is listened to what I call LOMAs, which are loved ones of meth addicts. Um, and the question is a lot of times from them is, how can I respond to— what's the right response To my loved one when they disclose their diagnosis or when they tell me. And this one stood out to me because when I was diagnosed, the first thing the nurse said in the county clinic was, you know, who just sits there and tells everybody all day if they have HIV or not, you know, is, well, it's not a death sentence anymore, you know. And then I kept hearing that. Over and over and over. Anytime I would tell someone, well, it's not a death sentence anymore. And although I understand what they were trying to do, I became so angry at that statement because it felt like, can you not come up with your own thoughts here? You're pulling on a cliché that that's the only thing you know to pull on here. And it doesn't do me any good. You know what I mean? And so that question stood out to me in terms of You know, what do you, what is your opinion about that? What are your thoughts?

I think that, um, that it's true that it's no longer a death sentence. And so people reach for that generosity of spirit.

Yes.

For those people trying, trying to give you a positive message, right?

You're right.

I have a video on my YouTube channel, My Fabulous Disease, um, called, uh, 2 Minutes of Advice After Testing Positive. 2 minutes. And one of the things it says there is you're going to have a lot of well-meaning friends who say, oh, it's not so bad. You just take some meds. Things, it's better than it used to be. And while that is true, if you've recently tested positive, it is a major life event.

Mm-hmm.

And while you may be fine medically, If you got good insurance, if you can afford the copays. While that all may be true, you're also going to be marked and stigmatized for probably the rest of your life, or certainly the rest of your dating life. So it is a major life event. And if you need to freak out for a while, if you need to feel sorry for this profound change in your health status and in kind of your social standing, then okay, freak out. It's all right. Go ahead. You have it coming. You are entitled to that.

Yeah.

But not too long because then pretty soon you need to get to work. Did you make that doctor appointment? Oh, good. You can go on the meds, get your blood test done. You know, Let's go, let's go. Get into that clinic, whatever it is, wherever you're going to go for that healthcare, and get on with it. And then go have a good time leading the rest of your beautiful long life, because that is probably what you're going to have. But I think that people do rush to that, oh, but you're going to be okay. Don't worry about it. And that is well-meaning, but maybe not helpful. If you've just tested positive. So for those loved ones, if they're disclosing this to you because it's a recent development, B, join them where they are.

Yeah.

Listen to them.

Yeah.

And if what you're hearing is sadness and regret or a little bit of grief over the life they thought they were gonna have, and now the kind of this wrench is going to make things difficult in some ways. It will. Hear that. Hear that. And you don't have to solve it. You know that you don't have to solve it. It's something I learned funny 40 years ago when we were training volunteers to be with the dying. That was my first AIDS job at LA Shanti in Los Angeles.

Hmm.

There were no medications. There were no clinical trials. There were just people dying of AIDS.

Wow.

And so we trained volunteers, emotional support volunteers, to be with our clients who were dying. Sometimes they had no family or friends, or sometimes they did, but those family or friends kept telling them, it's going to be all right. You're going to pull through. Keep fighting. They needed somebody who would just be there with them. that wouldn't tell them that, that wouldn't try to convince them everything was going to be okay, that would just be with them. Yeah, because they need somebody to whom they could say, I'm scared. I think I might die. I don't, I don't like this. I'm frightened. And that person wouldn't negate those feelings by saying, oh, but you're going to be fine.

Right.

You're going to be fine. You know, and that's a— and why did it take 40 hours of training to teach people how to do that? Because we all want to fix it, right?

Yeah.

We all want to fix it. We feel bad for our friend. We want to tell them it's going to be okay. And the hardest thing to do is just to zip it and be there for them. Hold their hand, listen to them, and nod your head.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Love it. Um, okay, this one is more of a statement, I think, but I, I— this is a conglomeration of about 10 different similar messages— is that post-meth, um, with HIV, I have isolated myself. I feel like damaged goods, which is a— damaged goods is a phrase that I hear a lot. Um, how would you respond to someone who says that?

I get it. Post-HIV diagnosis, yes. And that kind of goes to what I was saying, which is, I get it. I understand why you might feel that way, because you're looking around and seeing how you've witnessed people with HIV being treated a certain way, as damaged goods. And so, however, it's— I don't want to call it a pity party, but you might be filled with self-pity, but it's like righteous indignation. Maybe it's righteous pity. Maybe you have enough information to know that you deserve a little pity. You deserve to feel bad. Okay, good. Feel it. Feel your feelings. It's okay. Feel that. The question is, how long are you going to sit there? Because we all face things and it sucks. And, you know, it sucks. But we know— and— but at one point, you're going to have to say, okay, I need to make a phone call. I need to call my friend so-and-so. I need to accept the invitation to go out to lunch. I need to go to the grocery store. I need to—

Whatever.

I need to reengage with life now. Given this new information, what am I going to do? What am I— I mean, there are options. You could do nothing and live that way, but is that— you know, doesn't sound like a great way to live. Or you can reengage with life. And you know what? We all got our— you may not want to hear this right after your diagnosis, but eventually this message will make sense. Tragedy is not a contest. We all got our shit. Everybody does. I love that. And everything I've gone through in the last 40 years, making it out of the '80s alive, has taught me to have empathy for other people. And if I didn't gain that, what the hell was it all for? You know, I now understand that everybody is going through stuff and a lot of them are going through it silently. And you have no idea.

Yeah.

You know, we all have our stuff. We want, we want to feel unique. We want to feel like this is the worst thing that could possibly happen to people. I get that. I know I can, I can, I can go there. I can name you all sorts of stuff that has happened to me, you know. But I think the reason it happened, if there is in fact a reason, is that I can have more empathy for somebody else. who's gone through something completely different. And I don't have to say me too. I don't have to say you think that's bad. I don't have to say anything, but I can nod my head with the knowledge of somebody that knows some shit, that knows some bad things and can comfort them in that way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love it. Thank you. Is there anything that I didn't ask that you wish I had have asked? Is there a topic or a comment or a perspective?

No, not really. You know, I appreciate you very much, Dallas. I appreciate your work on this and for including HIV in the conversation as much as you can. And, you know, it's just really important. So I appreciate it. No, I'm not going to double-guess you. I'm not going to tell you what to ask me. I think it's been great. It's been a nice conversation. I appreciate it.

Nice. Thank you. So I'm going to wrap this up. If— so I'm going to say again, I'll put the— all the links to Mark will be in the show notes. You can buy his book. Please do. I recommend it 1,000%. Um, I, I, I loved it.

I love it.

Um, please go out there and buy the book. And, um, and if you want to join in the conversation, if you have more questions for Mark, you can ask them You— on the YouTube version of the podcast, or you can submit questions on Spotify. You can submit comments on Spotify. Apple's not there yet, I guess. There's also a send us a text option in the show notes as well. You can send a text question and I'll try to get that to Mark. Okay, I will see you all next week. Have a good one.

Thank you.