EP 1:28 BONUS Episode: Happy 30th Birthday Crystal Meth Anonymous

Because here we sit 30 years later with Crystal Methadone Anonymous being now a worldwide organization, but we're still having the same conversation we were having 30 years ago. That's a problem.

Yeah.

That's a problem. And it's still killing people. It is still screwing people's lives up. It's still doing all the things that it did back then. And now we have that extra layer of fentanyl. And, you know, we have to get this under control because it is killing our, not only our community, but just any community, anybody who touches a drug.

Welcome to The Aftermath Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create a repository of resources for current and past addicts, as well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermath. Trigger warning, this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey and you feel like you could be triggered by discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, please do not listen to this podcast. All right, now on with the show.

You got it.

Hey, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I'm excited this week to celebrate the 30th anniversary of Crystal Meth Anonymous. I'm also very excited to have someone who is— was on the front lines of its formation and connected to those who created it. Um, so we have Kind of a celebrity to this week. Jonathan Vasquez, hopefully I said that right, is joining us this week. And I just wanted to, you know, I have to say it. If you are enjoying the Aftermath podcast, please rate and review. I prefer a 5-star rating, but rate and review the podcast. Wherever you listen so that it will continue to be, uh, picked up by the algorithm. Uh, it's— our podcast is growing. It's growing actually pretty quickly in the last few weeks, so happy to see that. Um, getting a lot of really positive reviews and reports from men out there, actually globally. Um, we're, we're getting out there into some of these, some of these far-out countries. Uh, Kenya, Malaysia. Wow. Pakistan. Yeah. Um, so I feel like, uh, you remember Romper Room? Yeah, the mirror. I see Bobby. Um, but I see you out there, um, in the far corners of the earth. You're listening to the podcast, and I just really appreciate that, and I hope that it helps. Okay, so I'm going to allow you, Jonathan, to introduce yourself. Just highlight what it is you'd like us to know about yourself.

Sure. Well, I will identify how we identify in the rooms of Crystal Meth Anonymous. So my name is Jonathan. I'm a crystal meth addict. I would like you to know this is my second recovery. And on the first of this month, which was September, and for those of you don't know, September is Recovery Month nationally here in the United States. But on September 1st of this month, I celebrated 9 years and 9 months of continuous recovery, clean and sober off of all drugs and alcohol.

Wow.

As well as 9 years and 10 months off of nicotine. So when I got sober this time around, mind you, this is my second recovery. My first recovery, I was able to collectively get 11 and a half years of recovery, and that was through the Crystal Meth Anonymous program. And when I got sober at that time, which would've been almost 25 years ago, because I had 11 and a half years, I went out for 4 and a half years and had a relapse. Screwed my life up one more time because that's what Crystal Meth Anonymous disease does for me. It is tried and true and guaranteed. And what I know for sure is the disease will gladly refund your misery if you play with that disease. That's been my experience. And I had a moment of clarity 9 years and 9 months ago to, you know, do something different. And that was to take a, you know, reevaluation of my life. And the one thing I know is You know, the most common question I get asked, not only in the first recovery of 11 and a half years, but this recovery of 9 years and 9 months, is how did I get so much time? And my experience has been both times is I do the work. I do what is suggested of me, of someone who has more time than me, Crystal Meth Anonymous. I would also like to clarify, Crystal Meth Anonymous is my primary program. It is also my drug of choice. However, I started in AA, 12-step, which crystal meth is a branch off of AA and NA. But I belong to AA for depth of time, 'cause crystal meth is celebrating 30 years this year, actually next Monday. However, AA's been around, I believe, I'm gonna, might get the number wrong, but like 85, 89 years. And NA's been around since 1972. So they have more depth of time. However, for me, I can go to any of those meetings and I just replace alcohol, drugs, or crystal with crystal because that's my drug of choice.

Okay.

It's basically the same principles, the same steps, all the things on the back end, just the drug of choice tends to be different. I also qualify for quite a few other programs, Al-Anon and Codependents Anonymous and all the things. So very versed in a lot of the 12-step programs that are out there. So back to Crystal Meth Anonymous. Yeah, I have 9 years and 9 months.

Well, congratulations.

Thank you. Thank you. And I paused right then because I learned how to do that in 12-step. But also too, I just had a friend of mine who she has 35 years reminding me over the weekend. I don't acknowledge that time enough. And so as I get further away from the drug and my life gets bigger and better and more glorious and grand, I don't take those moments to remind myself 9 years and 9 months ago, my life was a mess. It was incomprehensible demoralization. You wouldn't recognize the person sitting in front of you. I weigh 185 pounds in front of you now. When I came back to the program after the 4 and a half year relapse, I weighed 125 pounds. Wow.

Wow.

Yeah. And I was 4 up from the floor up and I was staying stanky, funky monkey, thinking it worked for me and just a mess. I was not the message. I was a mess. And I was living in the disease, the dis-ease. That's where that word comes from, the dis-ease of my life, trying to make it work one more time. And what I do know, having both these recovery experiences, is it's never worked for me. ever. I lie to myself and I do it this way and I do it that way and I do it with this person, that person, and upside down and left and right and all the things. But it has never worked for me. And every time— this is ironic that we're doing this today, Dallas, because I just, you know, I work in recovery in my traditional job. I have a traditional job that works in recovery. I help LGBTQ BIPOC youth with substance use disorder, a lot of them on crystal meth and fentanyl currently, to get into housing, get off the streets and get out from under the bridge and get out of incarceration, get out from the back alley.

Right.

And hopefully get them into some sort of program, because now we have a variety of different programs, not only crystal meth, but a variety of them to hopefully, you know, get them back on track with their lives so they can spread their wings and become a, you know, self-supporting, fulfilling adult within their own journeys. With that said, one of our check-ins today, one of our meetings, I've literally been in 4 Zoom meetings, 4 1-hour Zoom meetings today in my traditional job, which I love, because I'm able to be of service in recovery as well as, you know, it keeps— it's a gentle reminder daily for me. That is, that this, this disease is still out there and it's still killing people and it's killing our youth. And, you know, I just heard the statistic a couple weeks ago, the leading cause of death between 18 and 40-year-olds currently right now is the fentanyl crisis. You know, they're lacing crystal meth with fentanyl, they're lacing marijuana with fentanyl, you know.

Yeah.

But back to crystal meth, one of the things that we were asked today as our kind of opener for one of the meetings was What do you— what are you grateful for in your recovery? Because it's Recovery Month and we're talking a little bit about recovery this month. And I had to honestly pause for a minute because I have so many things that I am grateful for. And it sounds really hokey-pokey and schmaltzy and very, you know, the sayings on the walls when you go to the rooms and you hear on these, you know, podcasts and people talk about, but the list is endless of what I could share with y'all. But to, you know, keep it real simple for myself. You know, I call it the how of the program, and it's the honesty, open-minded, and willingness. And so it's those 3 letters. That's how I stay sober, and it's my daily reminder as I brush my teeth. My how is honest to know that if I put crystal meth in my body, my life becomes a manhole. Open-minded to hearing, doing, and seeing something differently, and willing to remain teachable, willing to suit up and show up, willing to meet Dallas when he asked to come speak on this podcast and share my strength and hope. Willing to not pick up the drug today, willing to practice contrary actions, willing to be an example of recovery, example of the Crystal Meth Anonymous program, an example of a sponsor, Sponsy, Spiritual Step Work and Service. All the things that I was taught that I learned in program that served me, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And it's literally the how of the program that has kept me sober 9 years and 9 months this time around. And also too, I continue to do the work, you know? And a lot of people go, oh, well, you know, I did the steps and I worked with a sponsor, you know, and after 6 months I got bored and this and that. That was not my experience. I had to work with a sponsor for 11 and a half years. And that's the one thing that made me go back out is I stopped working with a sponsor. I stopped having sponsees. I stopped being spiritual. I stopped doing service and I stopped doing the steps. And I was out drugging one more time, trying to make it work. And it didn't. And, you know, fortunately, after that 4 and a half years, and I say fortunately, because most people who relapse don't come back. It's jails, institutions, or death. And as cliché as it sounds, most people die or disappear, unfortunately, or they figure out how to stay in that slow downward spiral and just stay a crystal meth addict for the rest of their lives. And they settle for that. And I wasn't willing to settle and let the disease rule my life and let this drug rule my life. The one thing I know is crystal meth will kick your ass every time, period. She won't— Miss Crystal ain't one to play with. Mm-hmm. So that's kind of where I'm at and where I got it, you know, where I'm at. And so grateful, so grateful. And I'm so honored that you asked me to speak. I had reached— for your listeners and viewers, I had reached out to Dallas via TikTok because I saw Dallas carrying this wonderful message of recovery. And I would see it, you know, scrolling as I was going to bed, which I probably shouldn't be doing because, you know, I'm getting my dopamine hit in the bed. But also too, you know, just to hear your message, Dallas, and what little I know of you, but how you were so honest about it and just your own journey, I was like, wow, this message needs to be heard. 'Cause here we sit 30 years later with Crystal Methadone Anonymous being now a worldwide organization, but we're still having the same conversation we were having 30 years ago. That's a problem.

Yeah.

That's a problem. And it's still killing people. It is still screwing people's lives up. It's still doing all the things that it did back then. And now we have that extra layer of fentanyl and, you know, We have to get this under control because it is killing our, not only our community, but just any community, anybody who touches the drug. I've never, not once had anyone go do that drug for a long period of time and say, you know, oh, I got the house, I got the relationship, I got the scholarship, I got the degree. That equation doesn't work that way.

Mm-hmm.

So very, very grateful to just have this opportunity to not only honor the program that literally, it sounds just very cliché, but literally changed and saved my life. Because when I went to AA, I kind of understood AA. I was a drinker first, but also too, I like speed and I like fast and like to go and I like to be up for 7, 10, 14 days at a time. But I couldn't really relate to the alcoholics who, you know, drank some and passed out. I wanted to go.

Yeah.

The NA people, you know, a little bit of a different breed. I can understand cocaine users because I love a good cocaine, you know, and also, but, you know, heroin, I'm not a good downer person. It's got to be go, go, go. And yeah. I also, my experience, I'd like to say this because I know this isn't everyone's experience and I have to be reminded about this for myself. I come from Hollywood, California, and right next to Hollywood, California is West Hollywood, California, which is one of the biggest gay meccas in the world. Hollywood is the number one tourist destination in the world. So you have an influx of people all the time.

Yeah.

So my experience, not only with the drug and with 12-step, is very different than someone's experience where They might not be in the gay community. They might be the only gay person in that community. Or for Miles, they might be the only Black, brown, transgender, any combination thereof person in their area. Where in LA, prior to pandemic and everything going online and stuff, there were 5,000 12-step meetings on any given day you could go to, just because it's LA and it's so big.

Mm-hmm.

You know, with Crystal Meth Anonymous back then, there was only one meeting. It started literally with one meeting. Now there's over 5,000 meetings worldwide that you can go on, on Zoom. in any part of the world at any hour of the day. And I say that out loud because it's really cool to be able to have seen this organization grow to that, you know, breadth of just worldwide. But also too, what I learned, and I have— it's kind of a fun thing I do— I'll just randomly pick a CMA meeting online and go to it. And I'll go to a Germany meeting, an Australia meeting, a Japan meeting where they translate for you. And, you know, everyone loves you because you're the American in the Japan meeting. But what I've learned, and I've shared this with Dallas before, is it literally is the same shit, different day, different country, different person. Same thing, consistently. Tried and true. So I hope that's a good little intro, and it's a lot, but there you have it.

That's an intro if I've ever heard one. I love that. Um, there's a couple things that come up for me, and this Is kind of off topic, but you mentioned nicotine. How hard was it to quit nicotine, and is nicotine a drug?

I'm going to start with the first part of it. How hard it was? I just had this conversation literally because I just celebrated that day on the first is when I quit. Nicotine was probably more difficult for me to quit than crystal meth and drugs and alcohol. More so crystal meth than the drugs. How it was explained to me, because this is the second time I also quit nicotine. I quit nicotine for 6 and a half years in my first recovery. I'm not a doctor and I'm not a scientist, but that was how it was explained to me is the receptors in our brain. So when we do cocaine, the receptors go to the cocaine receptor. When we do crystal meth, they go to the crystal meth receptor. Heroin and nicotine Are the only 2 drugs that have the same receptor. So that's why it's so hard to kick heroin. It's so hard to kick nicotine. But when you go, when you stop quitting, I, truth be told, I stopped via medically assisted treatment. I stopped through Chantix.

Okay.

I'm not here to be a cheerleader for Chantix or not. My experience was very positive. The first time I took it, I quit in 9 days. And the second time I took it, I quit in 6 days.

Wow.

However, a lot of people don't have that experience. So do your own research, check with who you need to check to. Um, but how it was explained to me is when you take Chantix, so your receptors are going nicotine, nicotine, nicotine. The Chantix kills those receptors, so dead. So it takes about 30 days for these new receptors, and they don't have nicotine. They don't know where to go. So there's no nicotine for them to attach to. So you lose that craving for nicotine. Same with heroin.

Okay.

So that I could wrap my brain around. I was like, okay, that makes sense. But also too, 9 days and 6 days. And after the 6th day on this last time around, It's just really weird. It's not like— it's like you've never smoked. Like, people can smoke around me. It doesn't offend me. It doesn't bother me.

Wow.

Yeah. And so I was very fortunate in that way. So that obsession was also relieved very quickly. It was through the help of Chantix, but I, like I said, hey, whatever it takes, you know? And so I'm very grateful to have had that. But I— why I chose Chantix is I couldn't stop by myself because I was a stress smoker. I was an after-dinner smoker, an after-sex smoker, while I worked out. I'd smoke a cigarette after I worked out. I worked out. I just was that kind of, you know, oral fixation smoker. And then it's also very socially accepting. You know, you go to a break at the CMA meeting because there's a, you know, 15-minute break. Everyone goes out and smokes.

You know, that's right.

The only vice they have. And, but also one of the best decisions I made too, because, you know, my lungs have repaired themselves. I run an hour every day. Like it was one of the best decisions I made as well.

Wow. Thank you for that. Um, yeah, there's some questions around nicotine and, um, is it a drug, is it not a drug that's come up lately, and I just wanted another opinion about that. Um, yeah, so let me ask you, just so for the audience, you know, if you're not familiar, AA, Alcoholics Anonymous. He's, as he said, NA, Narcotics Anonymous. CMA is Crystal Meth Anonymous. Crystal, yeah, Crystal Meth Anonymous. So there's other things too. There's SA, which is you know what sexual or SCA, SCA Sexual Compulsives Anonymous, and there's Sexual Compulsives. There's Overeaters Anonymous. Yep.

Sex Love Addictions Codependency Anonymous. Al-Anon. Yeah. Children of Alcoholics. You name it.

Yeah. Marriage. Yeah.

Yeah.

So why do you think that crystal meth needs its own anonymous?

This is just my experience, and I can only speak from my experience. I'm going to go back to when I went to AA for the first time. I totally— again, you take crystal out of my life, I did cocaine. Take cocaine out of my life, both speed. Before the cocaine was— I was never, never a very big pot smoker because it's kind of a downer, but there was alcohol. And so I started drinking alcohol when I was 14. Worked for me until I discovered cocaine. Once I discovered cocaine, forget alcohol, straight to the coke.

That's right.

Then after cocaine came crystal meth. My experience has been alcoholics drink, they get drunk, boom, fall out, pass out, done. Crystal meth users, in my experience, get high and they go on a 2-day, 3-day, 5-day, 7-day, 14-day, 21-day bender. And they either take, you know, the TV apart and the microwave apart, or they think they're in a porn and watch porn for 17 hours in a way and masturbate for 26 hours and turn their penis blue and never come. Or, you know, Mm-hmm. try and do all this crazy, you know, redecorating their apartment and, you know, taking the car apart and just all the madness and stuff. But it's a very different high as well as a different just contingent of players in that world. Alcoholics tend to be a little messy, sloppy, slurry, and fall down on their face. Crystal meth addicts go and build shit. They go have sex with 20 people in a weekend. You know, like they, they are on a mission. And it is a very different high experience in my experience. So, you know, you can't— I can't relate to the person who drinks and in an hour they're passed out face down. What? Like, no, I do it and I'm gone for 3 days.

Yeah.

So it's just a very different, um, yeah, experience where, you know, a lot of— back then when I first got into it, here's— I shared this, I think I may have shared this with you. When I go to my first Crystal Meth Anonymous meeting, mind you, it had only been in effect a couple months. So I show up, there's 6 men in the room. It's a Friday night, and they purposely started it on a Friday night so you would go to the meeting after it. It was from 11:15— I'm sorry, 10:15 to 11:30. So the idea was 11 10 o'clock or 10:15 came, you'd go to the meeting, get out of the meeting at 11:30, then everyone in the group would go fellowship. So they'd go to the coffee shop, have a piece of pie, go grab a burger, whatever.

Okay.

11:30, from 11:30 to 12:31, you know, hour and a half there with the group.

Yeah.

Done fellowship, you've hung out. But then by then, because we're vain gay men, we're too bloated to go out and want to have sex, right?

That's true.

That's how they did it. And then at, uh, 12:30, everyone would go home and go to bed. But then they purposely started a Happy and Joyous Free CMA meeting on Saturday mornings at 10 AM, because that same group of guys then volunteered to be of service at the Saturday morning meeting. So it would keep them clean through the night because they would go up to go set up chairs and be, you know, the secretary or the speaker. And then, uh, they would run the Saturday meeting. That's how it started. But my very first Crystal Meth Anonymous meeting, there were 6 people in the room. One of them, Bill Coffey, the founder. Uh, the other 4 were just, you know, similar founder guys, co-founder guys. And when I got there, you know, they're all, give or take, 8 to 10 years older than me. But when I got there, I was just thinking, because, you know, by then I'm going to the bathhouse every weekend and I'm seeing 250, 300 guys over a weekend at the bathhouse. In LA, the bathhouses are very big. They hold like 500 people. And I would, I remember walking in, I'm like, where's everyone else? And they're like, what do you mean? I said, this kid, there can't only be 6 of us. Like, there's 250 of us at the bathhouse every Friday doing this drag.

Yeah.

Where are the rest of us? And I remember Bill Coffey specifically saying, don't worry, they'll come. And every week, you know, 5 more would show up, 7 more would show up, you know, and now we have a worldwide organization. Wow.

That's amazing. And you were right there at the beginning.

Yeah. I could, I just didn't get it. I wasn't, I was like, the math's not mathing because I just slept with, you know, 20 people over the week. There's only 6 of us and wait a minute. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, interesting. Wow. Was there— do you know, was there any kind of blowback or, you know, resistance from NA or AA in the beginning to start CMA?

Oh yeah, absolutely. So Bill Coffey, he's now since passed, and he doesn't mind that we all say his last name too, because some people go, it's an anonymous program. He's given us full permission in his will. After his passing, that we're able to use his full name. Bill Covey received a lot of pushback because when he started the program, he was 20 years into his AA program. So he had already been in AA. So, you know, it was kind of like the AA kid going off to start the new club and the AA old timers did not like it. What do you mean you need your own club? That's not, you know, you all ain't that fancy. And, you know, all the names and the things and the prejudice and the judgments. NA, same thing. Why does it have to be so drug specific? NA covers everything. We're a drug program. Why do we? You know, just, but back then there was only NA too. There was no Cocaine Anonymous. There was no Heroin Anonymous. There was no Liquor Anonymous. Each of those drugs and crystal as well, there's probably gonna be, I'm surprised no one's, you know, put it on the board yet. There's gonna be a Fentanyl Anonymous coming for sure.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

'Cause they all are a different high and it's a different contingent of user. You know, stoners get stoned and they, you know, wanna solve world peace and kumbaya and, you know, listen to music. It's just, it's a different reality for all those demographics. And a lot of us, let me speak for myself, are dual diagnosed or, you know, cross-addicted, where I can qualify for all those programs if I chose to, you know, crystal meth is my drug of choice, my jam. But, you know, people ask me what my drug of choice is, and it's more and yours, you know, whatever you got, let's do it and stuff.

So. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Was Bill Coffey a gay man?

He was. Yeah.

Okay.

And gay man, uh, I, I don't want to miss Uh, say the arm of service, but from service, military. Yeah.

Oh, okay. Interesting.

How he was introduced to crystal meth was back in the '40s, uh, when they used to give it to the pilots.

Yeah. Okay.

Oh yeah. He had a very different experience then because of that, and then got addicted to it as a gay drug, drug user much older in his life, or later in his life.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. For those of you who didn't That didn't know that, you know, it was given to soldiers in the war. I mean, sometimes to make them more aggressive even, but other times to make them more awake, alert.

To fly the planes or to fight more. All the things.

Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Um, okay. So do they always meet? Do they still meet on Friday nights and Saturday mornings?

Yeah. It's called the home group. Meets every Friday night still to this day.

Uh, okay.

Always some free Happy, Joyous, and Free, that little kind of resolve of keeping you sober through Friday night so you'd have to show up to Happy, Joyous, and Free. This is pre-pandemic though. It's gotten a little smaller, but pre-pandemic, that meeting would easily get 300, 350 people every Saturday morning.

Wow.

Oh yeah.

Really? Yeah.

LA meetings are no joke. They are, because that's where it started in LA. It almost— if there's not a gay man in LA who hasn't done crystal meth, I'd be surprised.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Well, there's some questions that come across my desk about CMA that I can't answer because I don't have, I don't, I personally don't have experience with CMA. As I was leaving Charlotte, they just started a CMA group there.

Oh, that's awesome.

I was, I was going to attend, but I had moved. And so, and they have, CMA has their own retreats. As well, right?

Yeah.

A lot of my people ask, a lot of my guys— I have some questions here, but, um, ask— they're, they're very weary about the thought of going to a circle of gay men, probably. I mean, you know, not everybody in CMA is gay, I know that, um, but a circle of gay men who are probably newly in their sobriety, you know, they, they know they've used crystal meth. They're, they're afraid of getting triggered when they get into the rooms. Um, the thoughts of that just seems unsafe. So, um, a lot of the people, a lot of the guys that I talk to will go to AA meeting and not even admit they have a meth problem, um, just to try to avoid being triggered. So what, what is your experience with that?

Uh, let's see, I'm gonna go to the second part of that, the AA piece. Out of just respect for the respect The names of the programs or the branches of the programs, it is suggested. It's just a suggestion, but it's more kind of an unspoken rule, common courtesy. So when I'm in an AA meeting, I address it as I'm an alcoholic.

Okay.

I'm an, you know, I'm a drug— I'm an addict. You don't say I'm an alcoholic. You don't say I'm a crystal meth addict. You just say I'm an addict.

Okay.

Meth Anonymous, I'm a crystal meth addict. You know, it's to be respectful of the room that you're in, basically.

Okay.

Okay. In LA, I also now live in Portland, Oregon. You have a lot of meetings now, especially over the last, I'm gonna say roughly 7, maybe even up to 10 years. So many of us are so cross-addicted. So you can just say, you know, I'm an addict alcoholic, I'm an alcoholic addict. It kind of depends on where you are 'cause some old-timer meetings, and it'll say in the book, old-timer meetings, you definitely wanna respect the, you know, graces of the meeting and the, you know, protocol. But nowadays it's not uncommon for any of the meetings to go, I'm John. Hi, I'm Jonathan. I'm an alcoholic addict. 'Cause most of us are. dual, tri, quad addicted, depending on where you lie within that spectrum. As far as the triggering part, here's what I know. Life's triggering. I can come meet you for a little lunch, Dallas, and you could pull out a bag of crystal meth and say, let's get high.

Right? Yeah.

I mean, that's just the reality of it. And if I'm going to allow Dallas to have that much power over me, or that little bag to have that much power over me. For me, I should be having a different conversation, maybe with my therapist, my friend in Crystal Meth Anonymous, whoever I'm working with, the sponsor, other people that I know that are sober, is my opinion. However, I get it. It's been a minute since I've been a newcomer. But also too, what I made sure to do as a newcomer, and an old-timer told me this, is when I stepped into the rooms, surround yourself with people with 10 years or more. Because they've been there, done that. They've lived life. They've got through death, marriages, divorce, a new job, lost the job, bought the car, lost the car, all the things. But then that way you have solid foundation of people you're starting with. Because a lot of times, especially in the work I'm in currently, you know, I work with substance use disorder youth all the time, and ten of them come in together, and they're all you know two weeks getting sober, and everyone wants to solve the world problem, and I can't do this, and oh my god, and what about that? And they're just. Fun trying to just, you know, I just say, why don't you just eat for a week and sleep? Well, you know, just, it's all going to work out. But, you know, it's the approach for me, in my opinion. If you approach it with, you know, with the intention, the, you know, what's the word I want to say? You know, mindfulness, purposeful intent, you know, those 3 things. Uh, of how you approach something. But I think that's anything in life. If I go, I'm gonna go do a podcast with, you know, Dallas, and Dallas is gonna, you know, make me get high, well, I'm probably gonna get high. You know what I mean? But if I say, hey, I'm gonna have a nice conversation with Dallas and, you know, answer some questions, and hopefully we both can have a very healthy conversation about this crazy disease called Crystal Meth Anonymous and get some solutions around it and get it out to the people who may need it or who are questioning, that's a beautiful thing. But two very different approaches. You know, you out of Crystal Meth Anonymous or AA or 12-step or anything in life, which you put into it is my opinion. I go into it with positive intention, mindfulness, and purposefulness. That is what I will most likely receive.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so it's a perspective shift basically, right?

Yeah, yeah. And trust me, when I got to program, I did not want to say I was an addict. How dare you? I am not an addict. I got this under control. I'm not you. You're a Don't ask me for your number. Don't hug me. I mean, I was like this. Yeah. And people were like, girl, sit in the back.

Shut up. Listen. Quiet.

Yeah. You know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So is it the same in Crystal Meth Anonymous in terms of, uh, no dating for a year?

There's nothing—

Is it suggested, or—

There is. I've done the steps 6 times over the 2 recoveries, and I've done them with 1, 2, 3, 3 different sponsors. My very first sponsor, my first recovery was old school, one of the crystal meth founders. Like, you just do the work, you don't ask questions. I'm gonna show you how to do it and you do it and you're gonna stay sober.

Mm-hmm.

As much as I didn't like it at times, that person taught me a way of living that I still use today. And that's honestly part of that foundation was built while I got the 11 and a half years the first time and was able to jump back in this time around to get the almost almost 10 years that I will have this time. Jonathan willing, not higher power willing, not God willing. Jonathan willing.

Mm-hmm.

Willing to do the work. I'm willing to meet, willing to do a daily reflection every day. I meditate every day, I write, I journal every day. Jonathan willing. Because the moment I didn't is why I went out after 11 and a half years, because Jonathan wasn't willing anymore. Um, so I do want to say that out loud. Um, there's nothing in any of the books that say that. It is a kind of 12-step folklore thing. Uh, here's the reason though, and you'll— people will understand this when I say this, because not till someone told me, I was like, oh, okay, now I get it. Uh, the suggestion is you don't date, you know, for a year, uh, mainly because, say I date you, Dallas, and I'm 3 months in. Oh my God, Dallas is my new boyfriend. Oh my God. Well, my focus is now on Dallas and my relationship.

Mm-hmm.

It is not on Jonathan and his relationship with himself. So Dallas is now the shiny object. And depending on where Dallas is, not only in his life and his recovery or whatever's going on with him, it takes the focus off of me focusing on me.

Yes.

And so I got this, I know for sure. And this is from the first recovery and even coming back in this next recovery where I was on day 1 of both recoveries and 12 months later, I was 2 very different people.

Mm-hmm.

'Cause, you know, I did my soul searching and oh my God, and I gotta change this and what about that and deal with my childhood stuff and this person didn't hug me at 3 and All the things. I think it's an opportunity just to get real. I tell people, especially if they have the opportunity to go to rehab or go, you know, disappear for 9 months in sober living, whatever their thing is, take this opportunity to get right with yourself. Because as an adult, you will probably never again have this block of time to do so.

Hmm.

Because life happens. We get married, we get jobs, we move, we fall in love, we fall out of love. But how often do you have 12 consecutive months or 18 months or 2 years to go get your life back on track? My experience, not a lot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting.

Especially you can get at any time, but especially like I'm just, I have a participant right now, she's 20 years old and I'm like, get it now.

Got it now.

And you're gonna just have this killer life. And she's really applying herself. However, you know, You get it when you get it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the— what I'm seeing, and you know, you tell me if I'm off here, what I'm seeing in the crystal meth epidemic world, especially after COVID hit, was an increase in this— the cyber, uh, sex part of crystal meth, the cyber use, talking about Zoom and Telegram And WeMe or whatever that— I still haven't looked to see what WeMe is. Uh, you know what I'm talking about?

Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah.

Um, so there's a lot, you know, it's, it's online now, it's cyber, it's virtual a lot. Um, has CMA been able to kind of adjust to, to meet those needs, or does it, does it require a different type of handling of the addiction because of its change in nature?

In the sense of it going physical person-to-person versus virtual?

Yeah, yeah. This— the more availability of it at your fingertips, you can use on your phone now with someone on Zoom. Does it change in terms of how you get sober through CMA?

No, on that end, no, it would not change. However, funny you mentioned that, like I just mentioned, uh, there was, um, the other program coming. There's— there— I'm surprised no one started either. Device Anonymous is coming, I'm sure.

Ah, okay.

Because not only is it, you know, the using of crystal meth and all drugs, because there's— everyone does all types of drugs on Zoom and all the different, you know, Telegram and stuff. And how ironic you said Telegram. The last relationship I'm going to share in a general way here, not to give away anyone's anonymity, But the last relationship, I shouldn't say the last. One of the last relationships I was in that I chose to not continue was because this person was choosing crystal meth over me. And I know that doesn't work, especially for me, because it puts me in compromised position for myself. Yeah, I chose to leave the relationship literally just probably two weeks ago. I see this person going to Telegram. I use Telegram in my current job because I need to you know have side. texts with confidential information, basically, regarding our—

Mm-hmm.

And so as I'm doing this, I see this person, I'm like, oh, wow, that's interesting. I wonder what he's up to today. So what my thought was, his name, you know, pops up, just blank, wave hi. And so I was like, do I reach out? I'm just gonna leave it because, you know, it's probably better for me to keep this person at arm's length. And no sooner did that happen, bink, bink, bink, and it's 3 very compromised positions of this person in Nude paraphernalia, the whole bit. Like, just the scene. Like, oh dear God, do I kind of cross my own boundary of keeping a healthy distance to go, you need to take that down because someone's gonna screenshot and, you know, blackmail you, use— because they, they were graphic, and I've seen graphic. Um, or do I just, you know— And I literally went back and forth. I called my sponsor and I said, I sit between a rock and a hard place because God bless this person. They're still struggling. They are still in their disease, and I would hate for them because they have a very big job, and I would hate to see you know one bitchy queen snapshot that picture and send it to their employer or use it against them or blackmail. But then after I thought, "But you know what? That's not my path. It's not my job to take care of this person who's choosing to utilize these apps and choose. You know this is a 57-year-old man making poor choices is what it is." So I had to really. Do some writing around it, sit with it. I did not reach out to them. I left it. And then this was at like 5 o'clock that morning. Then around 1 o'clock, bloop, bloop, bloop, they got deleted. So they did take them down. And I hope it's for reasons of like, oh, shoot, I screwed up. And you already know I shouldn't have mass sent those pictures to everybody. But that's also a very common thing too, where people, you know, all that information can be used against you, you know? And I know in the moment and I'm high, I'll post a picture anywhere, you know? Yeah, me too. Yeah. You know? Not a good look always, right? Um, but yeah, uh, I— the same, uh, principles and, uh, I'm gonna say policy and procedure, my HR brain's kicking in. The same— the principles and the traditions would apply and stuff. It's all, you know, we use wherever we use, whether it's on device, in person, you know, in, in the hotel room, in the gutter, whatever it is. It's still—

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, crystal meth is different in terms of other drug addictions in that it fuses— meth fuses with sex.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And so when we quit, a lot of times we lose our libido because you take meth out of your brain, you're taking sex out of the brain because they're together, right? Does CMA help with kind of rewriting that sexual template? Does it address kind of that, you know, sober sex Redefining what it means to you, finding it. I mean, is that a part of, an addition to the program, or?

It is a part of the program. You know, most people know it as the 4-step inventory. And the 4-step inventory, a lot of people think it's this big ominous step and, oh my God, ah, it's scary. And it makes me laugh when I say it that way because how it was presented to me by the first sponsor that I shared it through is very just, you know, They were a little bit of a militant sponsor. However, I need someone like that because if I know I can run circles around you, I will. So they need to tell me, here's what you're gonna do, just do it and do the work. And I, I promise you your life will get better. And in our 4-step inventory, you know, one of the pieces of that, there's 4 columns that you do, but one of them's your sexual inventory. And the sexual inventory is about all the, you know, what I thought at the time was all this horrible, horrendous, you know, graphic stuff that I've done over the years under, you know, being under the influence, especially with crystal meth. 'Cause, you know, I'm— this is me base level, and I'm, you know, kind of fun, a little kinky. Second level, alcohol and, you know, marijuana. You're a Christian, forget it, all bets are off. I will do whatever you want me to do and try it again, you know. That's not always a good thing either. Yeah, I'm very— no pun intended— compromising positions and ended up in states naked in beds. I just— it's messy. It's not—

yeah, yeah.

That said though, it allowed me to— because I thought at the time when I did my first inventory Some of the stuff that I did, you know, oh my God, and I tried this and tried that and come to find out everyone's tried it. You know, he was like, I did that, you know, 20 years ago. That's nothing unique or nothing new. But then also too, speaking to the piece of, you know, how do I have sober sex? And that was something that, again, going back to what was suggested to me, I didn't have sex for that first year because I really wanted to focus on myself and get my life back on track. And so, well, of course, when you don't have sex, I'm going to speak for myself as a gay man. Well, you don't have any release. So then I just, you know, was masturbating every 10 minutes, every time I could, because I didn't have any release. However, still staying focused on me, focused on me. But then during that first year, what I learned is I got to learn how to have a healthy relationship with my— I call them my CMA brothers— other gay men in the program that I didn't have to sleep with or suck their dick or fuck or them fuck me or whatever to have a relationship with them.

Okay.

I actually build, you know, healthy bonds with these men. They're my trekking buddies. They can relate to me. We can laugh and kiki, but I don't have to have sex with him. That was new for me. That was very new.

Okay.

Because, you know, and I'm sure you can relate to this, me as gay men, let me speak for myself, me as a gay man was brought up in my gay male culture, everything's transactional. So I meet Dallas at the bar, you buy me a drink, I buy you a drink, let's go home, you give me a bump, I give you a bump, you suck my dick, I suck your dick. It's all a transaction, but it's all very based around sex and looks, what you can do for me and what I can do for you.

Yeah.

And I had never, especially coming from Los Angeles where it's turned up on 20, you know, if you don't have the person, place, thing, and the look and the hair and the car and everything, you know, it's all very surface. You don't get very far, you know, and that's just me being honest and living from Los Angeles and being in Hollywood, California. So to learn how to have non-sexual relationships with fellow gay men was just new. I had never up until that point had done that before. And so it was a very good learning lesson, but also to, to kind of go like, because I have friends, you know, men from CMA that I met back then in the first recovery that are some of my closest friends today, just because I built those, you know, platonic, they're my brothers, you know, to get through life with and stuff that I don't have to have sex with, or they're not expecting me to, you know, to turn a trick with them or whatever it may be. And they are truly based on just respect for each other and love of each other and support of each other. And That to me is a beautiful thing that the blind few between in our, our community, I will say that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So what I hear you saying is, and I want, I want you to listen to this, guys, is that to reestablish intimacy does not require sex. Intimacy It begins with being vulnerable with a friend and sharing things that you wouldn't normally want to share, right? Uncomfortable and putting maybe in uncomfortable situations that scares you before. And these are things that, that you avoided because they were uncomfortable. And that's what, you know, that's what the drug was covering up in the first place. But so this is a real opportunity to practice intimacy. In terms of healing your, your sexual template. And when you get used to that, in a— it's so much, I think, in an environment where there is no expectation of sex, when you're not dating the person, you know, that all the pressure's off. And it's just a friendship. I think that's the best time to really practice what it feels like to be intimate. And then you'll have an easier time finding a romantic intimacy.

I'm so glad you said the word intimacy and intimate because, uh, in my opinion, that is something that, uh, let me speak for myself, me as a gay man coming from where I came from, wasn't exposed to and lacked, you know, and not until I learned how to be intimate and do all the things you just said and have, you know, a partner in crime was, but who just was a best friend.

Hmm.

I truly understand what that meant. You know, two of my friends that I know from that first recovery, I speak to them every day. Sometimes it's just five minutes a day. Sometimes we can go on and ramble and blah blah blah and all that. But it's this cool check-in of we're all still sober. But we also, you know, we go through life. One of my friends just lost his mother two years ago. I lost my parents years ago, so I was able to help him walk through that death and support him through that. We have another person right now, the third person of our trio, we call it, who's you know his partner is going through cancer and is probably going to die in the next week. or 2, and we're trying to figure out how do we rally as not, not only fellow non-platonic friends who've been in his life for 25 years, but help him, give him the crutch of— because he's like, I feel like I want to drink. Okay, that's not good. Let— how do we support you? How can we be there for you? How can we as sober men, whatever program we're in, show up for you to let you know that you don't have to do that? That's beautiful to me. I would have never had that if I was hanging out with Bob, who I was, you know, having sex with every weekend from the sites.

Right.

It just wouldn't happen.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. And, you know, we tend to confuse intimacy when we're in the midst, in the throes of meth addiction. It feels intimate when you're high, you know.

Oh yeah.

But when you experience— I'm talking from experience now. Lately, I've experienced what real intimacy feels like. And there's just a very stark difference between what you think is intimacy on crystal meth And true, like, emotional intimacy with another person.

Yeah.

And the kind of space that you can get, this unconditional acceptance of who you are and not based on a drug making you feel that way. There's a big difference there and a lot of healing that happens too.

Oh yeah.

So I could really see the benefit of being in a fellowship of men who have been traumatized by this drug. Traumatized by what they've done on it and really scared of, you know, I want to have sex again. I want to feel normal again. I feel damaged, you know, and just kind of leaning on each other and understanding each other in a, in a deep way.

Yeah, I was gonna— I think we got off on a little bit of a tangent earlier. You were talking about if they still had the home group on Friday night and the happy hour on Saturday, which they do, but they also— the program ended up becoming one meeting a day. It's now it's multiple meetings a day, but then The Saturday meeting. Then Sunday was, um, they call it other round robin. And so it's an early dinner meeting. So it's from 5 to 6, but everyone comes to just work, tie up their Sunday. They also have a Sunday afternoon meeting in case you need a meeting after maybe Saturday and you were getting weird Saturday night. And so then they would get you a double hit on Sunday.

Mm-hmm.

Monday was the newcomers meeting. So that's where all the newcomers coming to their first meeting would go to. And I always loved going to that meeting because you would go to a room full of 100 newcomers. who just came off their bender of a weekend one more time going, ah, what do I do? How do I do this?

I hear about you all the time. Mm-hmm.

And all of us, this kind of protocol that, you know, the people who had a year or more would purposely show up to that meeting so we could be reminded what we look like as a newcomer bouncing off the walls and sweaty and stanky from being up for 3 days and not showered. But then also too, we then could go, hey, you know, let's go to coffee afterwards so I can tell you how this works 'cause I've got 3 years of recovery now, or I've got 3 months of recovery. And basically being the elders in the room to support, you know, our young comrades coming in who are, you know, suffering in their disease. Tuesday night was relapse prevention. That meeting is very— these are all still in play, mind you, 30 years later. All this still exists.

Wow.

Relapse prevention is Tuesday. Relapse prevention is how did Dallas and I come together in that meeting to go, hey, I don't have a relapse prevention plan for this weekend because I'm going on a 4-day business trip in New York by myself. Dallas is going to work something out with me to hold me accountable that I call him 3 times a day or whatever it is, or take a picture and show me you're at the Coffee shop and not at the bathhouse, whatever it may be.

Right.

Mm-hmm. Wednesday night was sex and relationships. That's probably my favorite meeting out of them all because it literally, if Dallas was a speaker, you would show up, Dallas, and say you had, you know, for the sake of conversation, 5 years. You would be the speaker. Then the group, the collective group, 50, 75, 100 people would then get to ask Dallas whatever question they wanted in regards to how you have a healthy relationship or a healthy sex relationship or combination thereof. And you literally just share what your experience was. And you— and it's coming basically from the horse's mouth, someone who's done it. And so that's a really great meeting that still exists. And then Thursday night was, um, they call it, uh, not Wheel of Fortune. Um, is it Wheel of Fortune? No.

Jeopardy.

And so everyone goes in and then, so I say I'm the secretary of Dallas. You would be the speaker. Everyone is given a number as they come in, like a little carnival ticket. So they pick 221 and then 221 comes up and 221 gets to stand up and literally ask the person whatever they want in regards to, you know, hey, do you have financial wreckage? Or, you know, how did you deal with getting, letting your parents know you're a crystal meth addict? Or, and it's really cool 'cause you get, you know, 100 different perspectives of what questions wanna be asked. But also too, you can kind of, you know, kind of the same 20 questions come up. It's around sex, it's around relationships, the stigma of still being an addict, the stigma of saying I'm a crystal meth addict.

Mm-hmm.

stigma of saying I have a problem. You know, what is various bottoms? Some people have very high bottoms, some people lose everything and end up in institutions, death, and everything in between. But all those meetings still exist 30 years later.

Wow.

Yeah. Wow.

That's amazing. Yeah. I love that. I love the structure. And, you know, the dependability of that. I know that— I know when you're first out of a meth addiction, you need structure.

Mm-hmm.

And you need something to help adjust and transition from one way of living to another. And so I really think these meetings are— all the 12-step meetings really are a good way to do that for people. If I were a newcomer, so let's say I am, I don't know, a week sober, I'm ready to start trying. Yeah. What would you say to me as some first steps?

Um, I like to ask people, are you done? As everyone, you know, after that 4-day bender and they have no money in the bank account and they got all their stuff stolen at the bathhouse, think they're done. Um, they slept and showered, shampooed, got some food, and then they're out again. That's right. And so I try to get how serious they are about it because a lot of times, you know, some people will be very serious and be like, you know, I've tried and tried and tried and I can't.

Yeah.

Okay, totally get it. And I said, are you willing to go to a meeting? Are you willing to do 90/90? It's kind of protocol. And why they suggest 90 meetings in 90 days is because scientifically, somewhere in the realm of information, they say doing anything for 90 days creates a habit.

Yeah.

And so after 90 days, it's kind of habit that you just go to a meeting every day.

Yeah.

So it suggests a 90/90. And then if they're truly, you know, willing and ready to change everything, because I always say, you know, there's just, you just gotta change one thing and that's everything. Um, and then, yeah, then I, I will escort them to the first 7, 10 meetings if they want to. I'll go, okay, well, here's my meeting schedule. And I would like to say out loud for everybody, at 9 years and 9 months currently, as I sit here and speak to everybody, I still go to 3 meetings a week at 9 years and 9 months.

Oh, wow.

Just so we're clear, because when I stopped doing that, I went back out and screwed my life up one more time. And I also do the work. I have a meditation practice, a morning meditation prayer practice. I take time to just sit and be quiet. All these things I learned through program because, yeah, I like to get high. And so I didn't do any of that thing prior.

Yeah.

But I would literally, you know, extend my hand to the fellow addict who's still suffering because that's what it is. It's an act of service. And I know for me, by extending my hand to the alcoholic in the attic who's still suffering, it allows me— it comes back to me tenfold and always has, always has. But I would just ask them, you know, I set up a Temporary, you know, two-week calendar with them. Hey, you want to accompany me to my meetings? Then I can show you kind of you know what it looks like as someone with time, what meetings they go to because it's a different level of meeting, type of group because I'm hanging out with the older kids now. I call it, but then also too, I'll go to a newcomer meeting. I'll go to a sex and relationships meeting. I'll go to whatever you want to go to, but let me go and show you. So then also too, then I purposely can go and then say, "I saw you there, Dallas," and I know you know Dallas. Works a program. He's a good guy, the whole bit. I go, hey, let me introduce you to Dallas. And I will purposely put them with people that I know would be a good, you know, influence and help them out and stuff. Because it's scary to go into a meeting, trust me.

Oh yeah.

Yeah. And it's the first person walking to a group full of strangers and you're supposed to go, oh, I'm an addict. Uh, yeah, it's not— what wasn't my favorite thing to do the first time.

That's right. That's right.

I think the only reason it worked for me the first— now that I think about looking back I didn't have to do that. I had a friend who I knew was in program, and I went to them and said, hey, I think I have a problem. And they took me to my first meeting.

Mm-hmm.

So I didn't have to do that. But even when I relapsed and came back this last time, and this is after 11 and a half years, and I know a lot of people in program, and I have secretaries around the country, all the things, it took me everything in my power to muster up the strength just to cross that threshold to go, Hi, I'm back. Day one.

Oh yeah, I can imagine. Yeah, I cannot imagine.

Yeah.

Wow. Well, good for you.

Thank you for you.

What heart you've put in the work.

It's work, you know. Nothing free. We all hear that, you know.

Yeah.

Say it's free, they're lying. But you know, it's a goes back to the honesty, open-minded, and willingness. And I'm willing to remain teachable. I'm willing to say I don't know everything. I'm willing to the paper. I'm willing to read the book. I'm willing to suit up and show up. I'm willing to extend my hand to the alcoholic and addict who's still suffering, and I'm willing to do what I know works for me. This has worked for me. You know, I'll say this in a very general way, and it's not to say look at me by any means. My life is bigger and better than I could ever imagine, and it's a direct result of me being clean and sober one more day.

One day. Yeah, yeah, lovely. Thank you for that.

You're very welcome.

Thank you. So what have I not asked you that you wish I had of? Did we miss anything?

Hmm. I would— it's not an ask. It's not a question per se. What I always like to suggest to people, because, you know, you had shared with me, you have a lot of your followers and listeners, you know, question it about triggers and concerns about the program and stuff. And What I have experienced on my end and just in life, and you'll understand this when I say this, I always share with people, you can't judge a book by its cover, or how can you say it doesn't work for you when you haven't tried it?

Yeah.

So at least, you know, my suggestion is go to 7 different meetings if you can. One of them will click on some level. They're not always— trust me, I go to meetings all the time. I'm like, ugh, that person's talking again. However, every meeting I go to, I get something out of it, whether it's something or this big. And sometimes I just need to— I didn't know Dallas was speaking, and Dallas shows up and says something like, oh my God, that was exactly what I needed to hear. Or sometimes it's just, I haven't seen Dallas in 3 years, and oh my God, he's the speaker. Oh, I got sober with Dallas.

Cool. Yeah.

You know, whatever. But I always suggest people give it a shot. Clearly your life's not working if you're even questioning it. Clearly your life's not working if you got the nudge from the judge or the PO's telling you go to rehab or the doctor's like, get your shit together.

Yeah.

You know, give it the opportunity. Going back to what I said earlier, if your life isn't working for you, this is the time. This is universe, life, source, whoever your thing is telling you, Go get it together. Ding ding ding! Red flag, red flag, red flag. It's not working, and to truly honor self and do some self-love and some self-care to take that moment to go, okay, I need to do something differently. Is it 12 step? Maybe, but you don't know unless you try it. And trust me, it doesn't work for everybody. That I know for sure. But at least give it the opportunity so you can make an informed decision with the data that you. And if that's not it, maybe it's medically assisted treatment.

That's free.

Maybe it's harm reduction. Those are all new elements of recovery and branches. Maybe it's Dharma recovery. Maybe it's SMART recovery. There are different levels of recovery. I— Crystal Meth Anonymous worked for me. However, it's the only program that I've done, and it's what I know, and I'm a big component of that program. But I also know it doesn't work for everybody.

Yeah.

There are numerous other programs that do, and I'm happy to— I mentioned you earlier, Dallas, I can connect with other people in those various branches of program as well as other, you know, people from the crystal meth history part of it that I'm happy to, uh, connect you to so they can give you their experience, strength, and hope as well.

Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Of course. Thank you. Thank you for adding that last part. I love that.

Absolutely.

All right, guys, I hope you enjoyed this, and if you have questions for Jonathan, you can send them To— you can comment on the YouTube video, you can comment on the Spotify video, you can email them. We'll put your contact, whatever contact information you want in the show notes, Jonathan. We'll put them in there. If you have any comments, please do join the conversation. Yeah, and we'll put the— also the link to CMA meetings in the show description as well. And if you want to join in the conversation on a daily basis, we have a Facebook group. The Aftermath community. And we have a lot of— we post questions every day, we talk about recovery, we help one another out. And you can also visit our website at aftermath.net. And that is it. So, all right guys, we will see you next week. Thank you.