EP 1:3 Bored, Angry, Lonely, Tired with Rob

Welcome to The Aftermath Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create a repository of resources for current and past addicts, as well as their loved ones. This is The Aftermath. Trigger warning, this podcast Not may, it will contain discussions pertaining to sex, drugs, and alcohol. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Repeat, trigger warning. This podcast will contain discussions about drug use, alcohol use, and sex misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Thanks to help. Okay, welcome to this episode of The After Meth. Today we are talking to my buddy Rob. Who knows where the conversation is going to go, but I know it's going to inform your sobriety journey. Um, if you have been or currently struggling with meth or sex addiction, I really want you to tune in to this episode and listen to what this man has to say. Rob is a sex addiction recovery life coach and transformational specialist, as well as an entrepreneur, course creator, master personal trainer, and nutritionist. Specializes in helping sex-addicted men bridge the gap between where they are now and where they want to be while overcoming compulsive, addictive sexual behavior. His coaching focuses on helping individuals heal and grow out of their compulsive sexual behaviors and the resulting negative mindset, destructive habits, Isolation, shame, and guilt. Probably sounds familiar to you. The goal is for them to regain their confidence and passion for life and thrive as healthy individuals. Rob's personal journey involved facing addiction to sex, meth, alcohol, compulsive behavior, isolation, shame, guilt, destructive habits, and negative thinking patterns. This led him to losing a successful career as an NBC television weatherman and radio broadcaster. He went into bankruptcy, homelessness, suicidal thoughts, and a period of incarceration. However, in 2012, Rob experienced a radical shift in mindset under the guidance of his spiritual advisor and coach. Over the following decade, he dedicated himself to learning, practicing, and mastering the strategies and skills necessary for a transformed life of sexual sobriety, free from drugs and alcohol. Whoo, there's a lot there. So welcome to the show, Rob.

I am grateful you have me here, Dallas.

Oh yeah, I'm grateful for you. I'm grateful for you in every way. You've been, you know, you've been very helpful for me, especially to understand my own sex addiction, you know, in just having conversations with you, just In passing, I learn something new every day. You're always dropping little nuggets, so I appreciate that. Before we get started with the interview, I always like to do a little wellness check-in to see how we're doing, how you're doing. So, how are you today?

I'm pretty good. I always tell people I'm good enough to be happy, but not happy enough to be ecstatic. You always have something to work for to be better. I mean, I can't be at the end of my journey. It's good though. I have one issue that I have really been taking a look at more recently, and this has been a lifetime issue. I am generally, on average, 5 to 10 minutes behind the clock in my life.

Ah.

And it's really fascinating. It's pretty much in every avenue. So I really have to take a look at that. That's definitely a little bit of a character defect that I need to really address. But otherwise, pretty quiet. I'm very peaceful. Truly serene. I have a lot of gratitude. I have learned that gratitude is the antidote to all mental malice. And I have gratitude every day, and that really sets my day off so beautifully. And I'm able to maintain that most days. And once in a while, and I had one recently, and I'll wrap it up with this, Dallas, I've had what I call a mental day. You know, where you just— your brain just goes everywhere. It's just like a wildcat running loose.

Yeah.

On days like that, I'll offer some time meditating. And then that's when I relax. I watch a Netflix movie or I start a Netflix series. I allow a day sometimes, but I don't stay there. But I'll allow a day sometimes just to kind of— you know what I'm talking about. I think that's— any normal, healthy, well-rounded person has a day like that. But otherwise, I need to start catching up to the clock.

Maybe you can set all your clocks back.

Yeah, that doesn't work either because then I know they were set back. So—

Someone do it behind your back maybe.

I don't know. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true.

That's funny. Yeah. I love the idea of the Mental Health Day and self-care, of course, is a big— is so important in sobriety. Somebody like you too, who has this overflowing energy, you know, and you're always on the go, you're always doing something. I mean, just look at your bio and you see everything you have on your plate. I'm sure that you need opportunities to rejuvenate.

Definitely do. Sometimes I'll watch a Netflix series just to be mindless.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Just not to have to think. So it's not about being lazy, although sometimes I could get into that series and I wind up getting lazy, but it's really about just mindlessness. And I know you know what I'm talking about. This is normal stuff.

Yeah.

Sometimes you just want to be mindless. And I'll watch a series on Netflix just to be mindless. I don't want to think about anything. You know what I mean? So that's normal. Normal behavior.

Of course.

Hey, not like what I used to do, or you used to do. When you were hungry, angry, lonely, tired, or bored, meth and porn. Now I watch a little Netflix. Boy, things have changed. And I have my cup of coffee.

Yeah. I mean, it's hard to tell how many hours of porn I watched while I was in meth addiction. It used to be just background music, you know, for a day.

Right, exactly. Yeah, exactly. True, true. So what about you? How are you?

Yeah, I'm doing really well lately. I am learning all about expressing emotion and just letting— when I feel an emotion, is letting it fully express itself from all the— from my feet all the way up to my head. Because I have lived a life of suppressing. And I was taught, you know, when you're little and you hear, you know, don't cry, don't cry, I'll give you something to cry about. There's a message there that do not express your emotions. You're not allowed to be sad. You're not allowed to be anything but what your parents thought you should be. And so that carried on with me into my adult life. And there's this message, especially in the spiritual community, about if you are angry or you have a negative emotion, that you're not in alignment or you're not— you know, you're not a spiritual person, you're deflecting your manifestations and all that kind of stuff. I believe that we lean in. You know, what I'm learning is to lean into those negative emotions and fully feel them, fully let them out, because that's how— that's what they want. And they're going to keep coming back if you don't allow them to fully express themselves. And being a spiritual person does not mean you're skipping down the road with rainbows and butterflies every single day of your life, just like you said.

Well, I've seen— I saw you running with the rainbow flag last week. That was you? I was like, holy crap. You did not see that.

You did not see that, or a fan or anything.

You did not see that.

Yeah. So that's what I'm— that's where I'm at. I'm pretty good. I'm feeling pretty light today because I am letting things out. And when they come up, I let them out. And it's been pretty good, pretty free.

You know, it's interesting. I've learned that, you know, we're emotional beings. So when you have emotion, we feel emotion, allow it to come out because we are emotional, but we need to discipline those emotions because we don't want that emotion to take over in an irrational, destructive way. Right? So we're emotional, we be emotional, we feel the emotion, but we discipline our emotions as well. That's called self-control, right?

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes. Self-regulation. I think I tell people, if you want to know where you are in your recovery, How do you react in traffic? How do you react when somebody pulls out in front of you? It's because self-regulation is you feel that emotion, that irritation that somebody cut you off, but then you come down. It's how fast you can come down out of it. It's the people that stay up and they talk about it the rest of the day and they're irritated and everything else is frustrating the rest of the day because they haven't come down off of that emotional— That frustration, you know.

Well, what happens with that example and others just like that is, you know, you're not responsible for your first thought because a thought can come from a situation, a trigger, an event, like you said, someone cutting you off. But you are responsible what you do with that thought.

Yeah.

And a lot of times what people do, what we do, and I find myself there sometimes too, is I start nourishing and feeding that thought over and over and over, and then it just permeates my entire day.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? But I have to discipline that thought. The first thought will come, and this comes even with addiction, pornography, meth addiction. I'm not responsible even if I have a triggering thought, but I am responsible what I do with that thought.

Right.

What thought am I nourishing? The product of my day, the product of my week, my month, my year, and my life is what am I doing with the thoughts I'm having? That will have direct influence and outcome on my day, my week, month, and life.

Yeah.

That's what we have to take a look at is what are we thinking? And then how do we discipline those thoughts? What are we looking at? What are we focused on? What are we nourishing?

Yeah.

Someone cuts you off, of course it's annoying, but what are you going to do with that thought now? See, that now will set the pattern for you.

Yes. Yeah. How do you— I mean, we'll just get right into it here, but how do you—

Well, we're slowly evolving into it, Dallas.

Organically.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

How do you teach someone? So, you know, in addiction, a lot of us have ruminating thoughts, right? So something happens to us.

Well, use another word than ruminating. What do you mean?

Well, obsessive thoughts. Like, you know, they can't stop thinking about the person cutting us off. I mean, that's kind of a lame example, maybe, but—

Well, let me stop you right there for a second. Interesting. Can't stop thinking about the person cutting you off. And that's an example of anything, any thought. You know, you're just using that as the premise.

Right.

Well, you can. You're just either choosing not to or you haven't learned the discipline to.

Yeah.

You know, when I coach people, we avoid the word can't. Because can't takes away power. Okay? So, I can't stop thinking of— well, you can. You're either choosing not to or you just don't have the discipline or the strategies to do it yet.

Yeah.

You can.

Yeah.

Because saying I can't loses power.

Right.

I can gives power. So, I can stop thinking about that. I just either don't know how yet or I'm choosing not to. And I'll tell you, Dallas, Most of the time, it comes down to a choice. It comes down to a choice, and that choice is directly influenced by your pattern. What is your pattern that now has become habit, habitual? Does that make sense?

Yes.

So I have a habitual pattern of when someone cuts me off, this is what happens. I just can't stop. Well, no. Now you have just Confirm the self-fulfilling prophecy. It'll always be the way it has always been. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

It all kind of plays a role in this massive, unbelievable computer that lives in our skull. This computer is unbelievable.

Yeah.

So now, you just have escalated the self-fulfilling prophecy and you've taken all power away.

Yeah.

You see how that just— it just snowballs.

Yes.

So, so you can't— yeah.

How would you, if it's, if it's either a choice or you don't have the tools to do this, what are the, what are some things you could, what are some tools that you could give somebody? How would you get them started with learning the discipline of—

Well, yeah. So the first thing, Dallas, is, and some of it's interesting because Some of these techniques and strategies, most people already know. It's just that they're not applying them. They're not practicing them. A lot of people are very smart. I know I need to stop smoking meth. I know I need to stop doing this because it's destructive. We just don't know how to apply it, practice it, and eventually master it.

Yeah.

So, one of the things you really have to do, we all have to do, is slow down. Slow down.

Mm-hmm.

Become present, become aware, become aware of what we're thinking. We need to slow down. We are so fast. We, we react to our thoughts, we react to feelings. We don't respond to them anymore. We just react, react, react. We're not slowing down.

Mm-hmm.

We slow down. We take a look at what we're thinking and what we're feeling. You can't think one way And feel another. Your feelings are in line with what you're thinking.

Okay.

What you think is how you're going to feel. And then how you behave is going to affect how you feel. It all kind of is intertwined. So, we slow down. How do we slow down? Basic technique. And I'm going to tell you something. Studies have shown— listen to this. This is very important for you, your listeners, all my clients, everyone that we work with.

Take notes.

92% of people will not follow through on their goals.

Yeah.

That means out of 100 clients, 8 will complete the goals or the plan or the strategies.

Yeah.

92% of people will not participate in their own recovery and transformation.

Yeah.

True numbers.

Wow.

Right?

Why?

Because people are not willing to do what it takes. You want something? You need something. That's great. I know a lot of people that want— I wanted, needed sobriety for decades, but I wasn't willing to do what it took because I was so afraid, afraid of change, afraid of the unknown, afraid of who I'm going to be if I eliminate the stuff out of my life.

Ah.

So, this limited belief of fear got in the way of me changing my life. But most people will not do what it takes. So, back to the question, what can you do? I don't digress too much, Dallas, but I kind of get in depth.

It's okay. I love it.

If you journal, if you journal your feelings, write it. Don't put it on the computer. I mean, if you have to type it on the laptop, you can. That's fine. Writing it, writing it slows you down. Journal. Yeah, this is a technique and I know you're familiar with it. I journaled for a long, long time early in recovery, for years, every day. Journaling works. It's a form of self-therapy, self-reflection. It's a way of really taking a look at what's going on inside me. It's a way of me being aware of my true beliefs, aware of my internal dialogue. It gives me an opportunity, but most people won't do it.

Right.

But it's been around for centuries. This isn't new. It's been around for a long time. But I don't want to journal. That's boring. Well, then just keep doing what you're doing until you're ready to start practicing some strategies. Now, I want to add this. There are many strategies to help you slow down and take a look at what's really going on. Many strategies. Now, there will be some strategies that my clients just don't want to do or don't like. Now, if I have a client or someone that doesn't want to journal, that doesn't mean that it's all over now. There are other strategies and techniques we could use as well.

Sure.

But the example I'm giving is, well, what are you willing to do? You're not willing just to write down 3 sentences for 5 minutes once a day?

Right.

Wow. Then it goes to show me, well, how willing are you really to slow down and take a look at bettering your life? No one on earth, Dallas, is responsible for anyone's wellbeing but the person themselves.

Yeah.

I'm not responsible for you doing well, Dallas. I could hope you do well. If you reach out, I could do what I can to help you or help change your thinking. As you reach out to your clients, you are there to help them, but you're powerless over whether they're going to succeed or not. It's up to them. It's up to you. Are you willing to do what it takes? And if you say, yes, I am willing to do what it takes, well then here are the strategies that'll work. And the best strategies on earth, Dallas, are the ones that worked for you. So when I coach people, it's what worked for me. That's the only forum I can really help a client with is what worked for me. Now, it doesn't mean it's going to work for you.

Yeah.

So like when I meet with a client, for example, or I talk with someone, even if it's a sponsee in AA or Crystal Meth Anonymous or sex addicts, whatever it is, we talk first to see if we're on the same page because I might not be able to sponsor you or help you.

Yeah.

Because we come from 2 totally different ways of thinking. And therefore, my plan or program or what worked for me may not work for you. I can't make something up that might work for you. I have something that worked for me and then I can offer that to you. If that strategy is not going to work, then maybe I'm not the coach for you. You're not the coach for everybody, right?

Right.

You're not the sponsor for everybody. You can't help everybody. They have to kind of resonate with you and your story and they can resonate. And then they're like, ah. So, strategies that if you ask certain strategies that were used, I'm not going to come from reading a book. I'm not a therapist. I'm a life coach. I'm a behavioral health coach. I mean, I have all this stuff and I have life experience, but I am not interested to coach someone on what a book said. I want to coach you and help you and give you suggestions from experience that worked.

Right.

And let me tell you something, I was at the bottom of the barrel, especially with sex addiction and deep meth addiction. These strategies worked for me, and odds are if they worked for me, they're going to work for you.

Yeah. Yeah.

Does that make sense? So journaling, imperative. Slow down and be aware of what you're thinking. A lot of people are so fast, they're not even aware of what they're thinking.

Right.

So like when you had said, I can't stop thinking about it. You didn't even realize you said can't because nearly 90% of negative self-talk goes unnoticed by the conscious mind. So most people don't even realize what they're saying.

Well, I wasn't saying that for me. No, I know.

You were giving an example.

Yeah. I hear a lot of that.

So what happens to you when someone cuts you off? Can you control your thoughts? I'm kidding. I'm kidding, Dallas.

Now, yes.

Yeah. Well, what do I do?

Yeah. I will say though, that was the first time in my recovery where my mother noticed that I had— that I was changing, is that we were in traffic. Someone almost backed into me and I was non-reactive. And she was like, I've never seen this before. Like, I've never— who are you right now? You're like, I have no idea. Yeah, yeah, right. I mean, the thing is, is, you know, I had just come off of being homeless and destroying my life. If this man backs into me, so fucking what? You know, everything— perspective of everything changes.

Oh my gosh, perspective. Yes, perspective, perception, extremely, extremely important. When you have a healthy perspective, you realize the smallness of things, and most everything is small. You know what I mean? But you realize that with a healthy perspective.

Yeah.

Very good. Very good. Dallas, you're coming along wonderfully. I'm glad we worked through the traffic stuff so now we can move on.

That's right. We'll name this episode Traffic Something. Road Rage.

Road Rage.

Okay. So, well, you mentioned, you alluded to your story. You want to go into some of what you overcome?

Well, do you have any specific questions? I mean, you know my story very well.

I do. Do you have any specific questions? I mean, the listeners won't, but the important thing is, I think, for me is to point out those that have a meth addiction stop using the substance. What they're left with is a sex addiction. And so for me, I will say, once I stopped using meth, I kept on having sex out of a place of addiction, right? I was still promiscuous. I even became that— I waited till I was sober to become a prostitute to raise money to get my life together, you know? Right.

Interesting.

So I still had what came first, you know, that's a chicken and an egg thing, but what came first for me was a sex addiction that led to a meth addiction. So Knowing all of that, I think it's important if you could give us your perception on sex addiction and how to recognize it, what you can do about it, and how to get control of it.

Yeah. So, obviously, I just want to recognize, I know that your podcast and what you're about is really after meth, but sex addiction certainly plays a role in my core addiction. For your podcast today, your interview with me today, my core addiction is sex addiction. I'm also an alcoholic and a meth addict, but I will tell you this, the meth and alcohol is what fed my sex addiction.

Hmm.

My sex addiction was my core addiction. Sex addiction, my sex addiction started in my teens. Most sex addiction for sex addicts is already established in the brain by 18 years old on average. So, and the average age for sex addiction recovery is 37 years old. So, most sex addicts really struggle for about 20 years before they're able to Or at least willing to start taking a look at changing and transforming their life to a life of sobriety. But my sex addiction really young in my mid and late teens was my core addiction. And of course, at that time, I had no idea that it was an addiction of any sort. I just knew that I was a little bit out of control. I didn't feel good about myself after— back in the day, we talked about this before, Dallas, back in the '80s, phone sex because we didn't have computers. Grindr or dating apps or Tinder. So, it was phone sex and VHS porn movies. So, I was very addicted to phone sex at the time. And, my sex addiction was flourishing so much by my late teens that my phone sex addiction was just so— I mean, I was talking with sex slaves and ownership. And, I mean, at 17, 18 years old, I was already getting into really hardcore sexual fantasy on the phone.

Wow.

And I hated myself for that. I felt so dirty and unworthy and inferior. Here I am, an 18-year-old young man, wanting to build a life and I already hated myself. But what it started from was somehow in my mid to late teens, the wires in my brain Like a healthy person who wants to feel valued, wanted, loved, nurtured will go to their mom or their dad or build friendships or have a relationship. I somehow discovered by my 16, 17 years old that feeling valued, feeling loved, feeling wanted was through sex.

Hmm.

Through the sex phone lines. If I had someone on the other end talking with me, in a similar or the same fantasy. Obviously, we'd be in the same fantasy, right? I felt wanted, desired, needed, cared for. So, by a young age, my wires already were getting so screwed up. And of course, I didn't discuss it with anybody. And I felt very— had a pretty dysfunctional home at the time and I felt very abandoned by my parents, which I sort of was. I'm living alone since I'm 15, 16 years old. So, I felt abandoned. And somehow, sex was the solution to the loneliness. But ironically, it made me feel more lonely.

Yes.

And that's the insanity of it.

Yeah.

We run to this behavior to feel whole, to feel connected. And yet, that same behavior enhances isolation, loneliness, self-disgust, self-loathing, self-hatred, inferiority. A debilitating internal dialogue. That behavior that I'm running to, to feel good, to feel whole, is the same behavior that's destroying me. But at the time, it wasn't so progressive. It did not make my life unmanageable. Now, it did make relationships unmanageable, my sexual relationships unmanageable, because I was becoming very dysfunctional. By my early 20s, I was in a relationship for 5 years, but I was a cheater. I was a liar. I mean, I was already a sex addict but had no idea. I did not know I was a sex addict. I just knew that something's a little off, but I just thought, this is who I am. This is just who I am. This is just who I am. This is how I live. It's exciting. It feels good. I knew it felt good.

Yeah.

It felt invigorating. Even though I hated myself and I felt so inferior to anyone around me, I couldn't balance out the good feeling of acting out sexually to the self-disgust that followed it. I just couldn't balance that out ever. But this is who I am. And that's how I defined myself for a long time, all through my 20s. And then in my early to mid-20s, I discovered alcohol. And I really didn't start drinking until I was like 22, 23, 24. Alcohol just enhanced sexual pleasure and lowered my inhibitions.

Yeah. Right.

Right? So now that I'm drinking, I'm going out and I'm drinking, my inhibitions are down. So what do you think I'm doing now? I'm acting out more sexually. I'm feeling more free sexually. Now I'm expanding my sexual experiences. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Now I'm expanding my sexual experiences in such a way that I'm becoming so out of control and now I need to be at such a higher level of acting out sexual behavior to get the feel-good feeling. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

It's like when I became porn addicted by my mid to late 20s, it started out with vanilla porn, then it got darker and darker, and then the pornography just, it went off the charts. And all of you could create for yourself how far off the charts it went. And porn addicts know. Porn addicts, you understand. Let's be real. We don't have to discuss what type of porn, but it goes off the charts. The pornography is just so— but that's what you need. And I learned later, way later, I learned, and as I was recovering in the last 12 years, is that it was all my brain during sex addiction became a drug manufacturing machine. See, I was drug addicted. Prior to the alcohol and the meth addiction.

Okay, good point.

Because dopamine, obviously, and a lot of people really are familiar with dopamine, it's talked about so much these days. The little dopamine drip, and the dopamine drip makes you feel good, and sometimes you get a promotion, you get in a relationship, a little more dopamine feels really good. But for the addict, the dopamine doesn't drip, it pours into the body. It pours into the body. become so addicted without knowing it. You become so addicted to the dopamine and the adrenaline rush, become so addicted to it that that's what now is driving you toward the porn and acting out sexually. It's not so much the need to be wanted, loved, validated, nurtured, although it always plays a role in there on some level. But pornography addiction in particular and objectifying people, and fantasizing. You can see someone, objectify them, and then fantasize about them for 3 hours, what they'd look like naked and what sex would be like. Then you run home and you turn the computer on because you want to see if you could find that person, someone that looks like that person, because I got to satisfy that fantasy. It just becomes so out of control.

And then it's never— then you need more dopamine and you need more dopamine. So you need more porn and darker porn and then the real thing. And then you have to have sex in a park And then that's not enough, so you have to have sex in traffic, and then that's not enough, and you have to have sex in a bathroom.

Correct. And then it leads to illegal behavior, voyeurism and peeping Toms. It leads to touching yourself in public, trying touching other people on the subway. It starts to become so out of control. And I'll tell you, wonderful, good, professional, sincere, good-hearted people can get entrapped and enslaved in sex addiction and do things they never do with a healthier mindset. Sex addiction is as progressive and destructive as meth addiction, alcohol addiction, cocaine addiction, any addiction. It's as progressive and destructive. And Dallas, if someone doesn't— if someone's not sex addicted, they cannot understand sex addiction.

Yeah.

You just can't understand. It's like, what— describe the color orange to a blind person. How do you do that? You just can't. If you're not sex addicted, you can't understand sex addiction. And it's so interesting because in the DSM, psychiatrists do not put sex addiction as a mental disorder. And the reason why they don't is because so many sex addicts, and also there are mentally disturbed people as well.

Sure.

But sex addicts also, they go to such an extreme. they do illegal sexual behavior. So they don't want to make it in the DSM under the psychiatrists, sex addiction, a mental disorder, because what will that do in the courts when people commit illegal sexual behavior?

Oh, I see.

Right. So it'll be more like, oh, they have a mental disorder, let's get them help, as opposed to put them away in prison. Because society feels anyone that commits a sex crime of any way, You belong in prison.

Yeah.

So they don't want that as a defense in the courtroom. And the World Health Organization, the WHO, they look at sex addiction as, you know, as an addiction.

Ah.

And they're more recognized globally than the DSM from the psychiatrists.

Yeah.

So sex addiction's a real addiction. And if you're a sex addict, you know it's a real addiction because you know how hard that malady really takes control of the mind and your behavior. And your choices. It destroys, it melts away your morals and values, takes it all the way, and you become a destructive person. You objectify. People become objects. And when people become objects because of sex addiction, how do you have a healthy, loving, intimate, passionate relationship with another human being when people have become objects?

That's right.

Right. Sex addiction is so disassociative. It disassociates you from empathy. It disassociates you from feeling what people are feeling. You'll objectify someone and want to flirt with them, want to have sex with them, or want to get with them and use them and use them. Go out to a club, get trashed or get high on meth, find some person, get them high, right? I mean, I know I got— I introduced meth to people back in my chemsex days.

Yeah.

Get them high. use them up for my pleasure.

Right.

But meanwhile, I could potentially be destroying their life or at least influencing them going down a road I've gone, but I don't care in my chemsex addiction. I don't care in that addiction. It's so self-centered and so destructive and so terrible. It's such a dissociative behavior. We don't have empathy anymore. Look at how destructive it is.

Yeah.

Then when I discovered crystal meth, Yeah, right. Crystal meth blows up the part of the amygdala in the brain. It blows up the part of the brain where sexual desire and appetite is. It's like putting fireworks in that part of the brain that's sexual. Yeah, you know, off the charts. Yeah.

Yes. Uh, and, uh, we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. Hey, Dallas here. Are you tired of stacking up the white chips 12 steps hasn't worked for you, been to treatment several times, feeling pretty hopeless. You're asking yourself, will I ever be able to get past relapse? Will I ever be able to string together a substantial amount of sober time? I'm here to tell you that oftentimes the answer to relapse is a slight shift in perception. Actually, any growth, in life— spiritual, mental, emotional. It's one perception shift after the other. I'm giving away my free 28-day Reframing Relapse online course to help you shift your perceptions about your addiction, your relapse, and yourself. This 28-day program Has daily journal prompts, guided meditations, and 2 free 30-minute coaching sessions with yours truly. At the end of this 28 days, you will look at relapse through a different lens and change the course of your addiction cycle. I promise you that. I could give your money back, but I'm not charging you anything. If you're interested, the link will be in the show notes, and I look forward to seeing you there. Okay, we are back with Rob. We're talking about sex addiction and how meth can just escalate, like you said, put— throw fire or throw gasoline on the fire, right? And that's where the— I think the challenge becomes for gay men is that it's— we were talking about getting more dopamine and going farther and farther and farther. And then when you experience sex on meth, you don't want to go back. You know, it's like, now I've experienced sex at this heightened level. How would I ever have sober sex again? And so that's, that is probably what I see the number one thing that keeps men addicted to meth is the fear of, of having sober sex, of feeling like there's no way they'll ever have sex without it. There comes a point where they can't even get horny without crystal meth.

Right.

And so, and that to me is what keeps us going. So, I guess my question would be for you when you help men and what would you say to someone who wants to quit crystal meth but the reason is they don't want to have sober sex or they can't I hear that a lot too. You want to go back to that can't word? Yeah, I can't have sober sex. And there's a lot of bottoms who come to me who say they can't be penetrated unless they're high on meth. Right? What would you say to these men?

Right. Well, first of all, the whole can't thing is a lie. So that's a lie that— that's a lie they tell themselves that they now believe, you know, they believe it, right? So, but I want to backtrack just a moment if you don't mind.

Please.

When I was— when I was at I'm not going to go into my whole story, but when I was at my worst, I was smoking meth, I was intaking meth every single day. And I was so promiscuous. I mean, I was hooking up with— every day I was hooking up with multiple men, pretty much every day.

Mm-hmm.

I was on dating apps every day. My life was meth, Grindr, Adam4Adam, Manhunt, Craigslist, pornography, cybersex, sexting, flirting, going out commando so I, you know, so I feel sexual, right? I wanted to feel sexual. I, I just was— I was the poster child of meth and sex, and all I wanted was meth and sex. And maybe another time we could go really deep into, into the meth, what the meth was like. I don't want to get into— I really want to get into the solution because I think people need the solution more than anything.

Yeah.

I just wanted to qualify, as they say, that I got to the point where I truly, truly— maybe you can relate to this, Dallas. I did not care if I died. I really didn't. My mind was so warped. I truly didn't care if I died as long as I died super high on meth and GHB. In a sling.

Yeah, yeah.

In a sling. Had to be in a sling.

Had to be in a sling.

Gang raped. Gang raped, right? So those were my 4 requirements. And if I had those 4, if I died that way, I was good. That is how—

Was that in your living will?

That wasn't the plan, but that was— that's how sick my mind was. Yes.

Yeah, I know.

Yeah. And I was accepting of it. I was accepting of it. I was totally accepting of it. That's all I wanted. I was getting a hold of porn companies. Porn companies were calling me, and I was going to start interviewing. I actually did have a couple of porn interviews. I wanted to do porn movies.

Sure.

I wanted to be a methed-up, gang-used bottom, high on meth, in the meth chem porn industry. This is what I wanted for my life, and I was an NBC weatherman.

Right.

I was a professional fitness model. I won awards for speaking in the community on stage and I had a great life.

Wow.

But, I went from owning a home and 2 cars and I had material things. I adopted a dog who I loved, Jake. I had close family. I had friends. I laughed. And, this is earlier on in my sex addiction, but it was somewhere around 32 to 34 years old. When I really started going down horribly. I put myself in a situation in the woods where I met somebody in the woods.

Yeah.

And they choked me out. And when I came to, they said they were thinking about killing me.

Ah.

And that was for a sex act.

Yeah, yeah.

And they said they really thought about killing me because I was in the middle of the woods. Nobody would know.

Right.

And that's when I started realizing I am out of control.

Wow.

And then in 2006, I lost my career. I went into a huge, huge alcoholic sex addiction, depression. I was going to sex clubs, having— I was just so out of control. And I just couldn't see a way out. There's no way out of this. I don't want to live any other way. I was in love with meth.

Yeah.

I was in love with anonymous sex.

Yeah.

I was in love with sex clubs. I was in love with the sexual feeling. I had so many relationships with those things. There was no relationship with human beings anymore. There just wasn't. And, and I was— all the men that I went to chemsex parties with, I felt like I was in love with all of them. I wanted relationships with some of them. I was— I had— I actually had a relationship before I got arrested in 2012. I had a relationship with someone for about 6 months who was also a meth addict.

Oh.

And cocaine addict. And we had amazing sex. I couldn't stand the guy. He was hot, And I loved sex with him and drugs with him and parties with him, but I didn't like him as far as I could throw him as a person, as an individual. Didn't like him at all.

Yeah.

But I was in love with the high. And I just, Dallas, I just, I promise you, and I know you can relate, Dallas, or at least I think you can. I just couldn't see a way out. There's no way out of this.

Right.

And I didn't want a way out, Dallas. Yeah, you didn't want a way out. I didn't want a way out anymore.

Yeah.

But I'll tell you, interesting, I say all that, but I will tell you, there were times, infrequently, but there were times when I literally got on my knees and I begged God to take it away from me. There were times when I begged him to take it away from me. Rare, but it was in there.

Yeah.

And part of what keeps me sober today, part of, because there's a lot of ingredients to living a sober life. And what I mean by sober, it's not fighting, Addiction. What I mean by sober is being of sound mind, having a life of a sound mind. I'm not fighting the addictions anymore. See, that's the secret. Don't fight them, you lose.

Yeah.

I'm 12 years sober. I will lose if I fight it. There's no fighting. And that's the waving of the white flag, surrendering. But I remember, I remember, if it was so good, Dallas, if it really was so fulfilling, because I could think it was, Why was I on my knees begging God to take it away?

Right.

Why even once at the end? Why did I beg him to take it away? If it was so good and a solution to my problems, why was I begging him to take it away? So I just keep that in my mind because early in sobriety, I get that amnesia. See, I forget all of the horror that the sex addiction brought me. I remember the pleasure it brought me. And I'll tell you, there was a lot of pleasure getting high, having sex. I'm not gonna sit here and lie to you.

Exactly.

But it was so destructive and life-ending. It was life-ending. It ended my life as I knew it. I was a spiritually dead man. I was in a spiritual coma. You understand? I didn't want to live. And where I came from to where I went is just breathtaking.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

And so, I got arrested. So, I'll tell you. Oh, you have a question?

No, no, no. I was just gonna— I was just gonna say, I know your time's limited too, but, um, I'm very interested in where you're going next, which is the turnaround.

Right, so we're going there now.

Yeah.

So first and foremost, and I'm just gonna be real, if you're not ready, you're not ready.

I'm ready.

No, no, no, no, not you, Dallas. Not you, Dallas. You were ready a long time ago. If you're not ready to change your life, You're not ready.

Right.

My spiritual coach said to me, do you know when you're done? When are you done, Dallas? I said this to you before.

Oh yeah.

When are you done?

When you're done.

When you're done. When you're done.

Right.

I have no power over getting you done.

Right.

If you are not done, if you're truly not ready, it's not going to happen. You might have to die. You might have to go to prison.

Yeah.

You might have to just live this way for another 20 years.

Yeah.

You're not done, you're not done. See, I got to the point— I got arrested. See, I had to get arrested. I had to be humiliated. And we don't have to get into all that today, but I had to get to a point of such humiliation and such out-of-control behavior that the pain of change was less than the pain of staying. Does that make sense?

Yes.

So, we make decisions based on Pain. Pretty— a healthy person makes decisions based on pain. You can be a healthy person in a relationship you're not happy in and you tell yourself a story. Would it be more painful to leave or more painful to stay? Wherever less pain is, is where we go.

Yeah.

Doesn't mean it's the most healthy decision, but we do make decisions based on pain.

Yeah.

So, for me, when I was done, When there was more pain living that way than changing is when I was ready. And that's the premise of change, Dallas, for the sex addict, the meth addict, alcoholic. They call it in recovery, they call it the gift of desperation, right?

Oh.

They call it the gift of desperation.

Yeah.

The gift of desperation is when you become so desperate, so filled with pain, it's less painful to change. So that is first and foremost, Are you ready? So, if I work with a client, that's one of the questions I discuss with them during our consultation, get-to-know-you call, our initial coaching call before they even sign up for a program or coaching. Do you believe it's more painful to change? They could say it's scary.

Yeah.

It's scary. I don't know what to expect. That's all fine. But do you feel like it's more painful to stay where you are or change? And they might say, it's more painful to be where I'm at. I need to make this change. Then, okay, anyone that wants to succeed in transforming their life, it's when they make a decision to. If you make a decision to, you're getting ready or you're ready. Does that make sense?

Yes.

You have to make that decision first. Make a decision, I'm ready to change.

Right.

And then it's more painful staying here. I don't know what that's going to bring me. I don't know what the unknown is going to bring me. But this is so painful that I have hope, or I have a flicker of light deep within me that changing is going to be less painful. And when you're at that point, you're ready to start changing.

Yeah.

But you have to be at a point of that, Dennis. There are so many people that'll stay on meth until they die, until they're old, or until they go to prison, or until they get to the point. Of so much pain.

Right. Yeah. And I think that that's a good point. And you have to remain in that place of having more pain when you're in sobriety, when you're faced with cravings, when you're faced with triggers, when you're faced with waking up at 3 AM and you're horny and you grab Grindr, is what is more painful? What's going to be more painful for me here?

I'll tell you, Dallas, I'll share this with you. So, I'm not addicted to pornography or anything like that anymore, but once in a blue moon, I do get the thoughts to— remember, as I said at the beginning, you're not responsible for your first thought, but you're responsible with what you do with that thought, right?

Yeah.

So, I have a thing called BALT. In recovery, sometimes they use the word HALT, but I have BALT, B-A-L-T. Bored, angry, lonely, and tired is when you're likely to watch porn, go on Grindr, or act out. Bored, angry, lonely, tired. Tired.

Yeah.

So if I were to, first thing in the morning when I wake up, or if I wake up in the middle of the night, because I'm half asleep, I'm not fully aware, that's when I can slip. That's when I can— now I don't go on Grindr, I don't do any of that stuff anymore. I'm in a relationship for 3 and a half years. I'm loyal, I'm monogamous. I'm honest. It's unbelievable. I've never lived like this in my entire life, as an honest, loyal, monogamous, clean, sober, raw person. Unbelievable. And boy, do I feel good. And that's the amazing thing. If you do the right thing, you feel good about yourself after you do the right thing. It's amazing. So different.

Yeah.

But here's what I have now. I leave this in my laptop. Now, I'm not saying that I'm watching porn, but what I'm saying is if I'm hung— if I'm bored, angry, lonely, or tired, I know for me it's when I'm super tired is when I get that trigger.

Me too.

So, I have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 questions that I leave in my laptop 24/7.

Okay.

Just in case the thought comes and I get tempted.

Yeah.

1, what would happen if I did not watch porn? That's the first question. What would happen if I don't watch it?

You didn't watch it.

Yeah. Because when you're an addict, it's catastrophic. I'm gonna die if I don't hook up, go on Grindr, or find someone that wants me, or hunt for someone that needs me. I want someone that needs me. Someone need me, please need me, make me feel good. I'm gonna die if I don't do it. It's so catastrophic.

Yeah.

Does that make sense?

Yes.

And it's a lie. It is such a lie that you believe.

Yeah.

And that's what we have to do to change and transform from a life of— it's not easy, Dallas. This is not an easy task. So if anyone— I don't want to give the illusion leaving your meth and sex addiction is easy.

Yeah.

That's why we do it together. That's why you need a support network, a village of people around you. Let me tell you all something right now. If you're the smartest person in your group, you need a whole new group of people around you. If you're the smartest person in your friend group of friends, you need a whole new group of friends.

Yeah.

I specifically am the dumbest, least intelligent person in my group because I want to become better. And I find people who have what I want. I do what they do. I get what they have.

Yeah.

Who are you hanging out with?

Yeah.

Because who you hanging out with, you're gonna do what they do and you're gonna get what they have.

Right.

Change your circle. But that comes later because when you're fully deep in your addiction, You either isolate or you're only hanging out with people that are doing the same thing.

Exactly.

So, I get it. So, anyways, that's my first question, Dallas. Second question. Now, I have 12 years of sobriety.

Yeah. Yeah.

But I still do it. Why? Because I need to be able— let me tell you something about sex addiction and all addictions. When you're addicted to behavioral addictions, gambling, overeating, any obsessive behavior, especially sex addiction. and chemical and substance addiction, you develop a pattern of that and it actually creates neurons in the brain.

Yeah.

So when you get sober, the neurons from your addictive patterns and behaviors, they're always there. They don't go away. They don't die off. You create new neurons now because of new behaviors, new ways of— it's been proven in study after study, your thoughts create Neurons in the brain. Your thoughts create neurons. That's why you got to be careful what you're thinking.

That's right.

Be careful what you're thinking because you're creating your brain by what you're thinking about.

Yes.

So anyway, because I'm always an addict, and they say always an addict, once an addict, that's not true. Once an addict, you always have the addiction neurons in the brain. You're no longer an addict. Yes. Thank you. I don't act out in addictive ways. I am not an addict.

Right.

I was addicted. And let me tell you something, Dallas, I could get addicted again.

Yeah, sure.

I could get addicted again if I go down that road. Again, what's my first thought? Am I nourishing that thought or am I changing my thought? See, I have power to do that. I have power. When someone says, I can't, you don't know how yet. That's what you tell them.

Right.

I can't have sober sex. You can, you just don't know how to yet.

That's right. Yes.

Because there was a time when you did have sober sex, most likely.

Yeah.

You can, you just don't know how to yet, or you just don't know how to apply healthy behaviors to sex yet.

Yeah.

You understand? Big difference.

Yes.

So that's my first question on here. Second one, What would happen if I just allow the feeling and let it be? What would happen?

Yeah.

And you can use these. I'm giving you an example of a method that can work. Yeah.

Yeah.

What would happen if I just allow the feeling?

Right.

For the meth addict, if I think about using, what happens is I become so obsessed, I can start shaking. I get adrenaline just from thinking about picking up a bag later after work. I can't wait to— I'm going to leave work early. I can't wait to get out of work. I work till 5:00. I'm leaving at 2:30. I'm going to tell my boss I'm sick. I got to get that. And I'm shaking the whole day because I'm obsessing. The dopamine, it's insanity.

Yeah, it is.

But I feel like if I don't do it, it's catastrophic. I will die. And that's a lie. It's a lie. That rhymed. That rhymed. Okay. So what would happen if I just allow the feeling? If you're actively involved in your addiction, write that down. What would happen if I just allow the feeling and let it be? What's really going to happen, Dallas? You think you're going to die?

Yeah.

What's going to happen is you're going to feel.

Right.

And you've been running from your feelings for so long that it's going to hurt feeling.

Yeah.

And you're going to have to learn to grow through those feelings, not run from those feelings. But you need help to do it. See, that's the key, Dallas.

Yeah.

Where is pain? Is it more painful to change or stay? Number 2, what are you willing to do? It's not about wanting it, needing it. What are you willing to do? And you need the village of people around you who have what you want. You have to. If you want to change and transform, you have to have people around you who have what you want. And then you do what they do and you get what they have. Third question. Does this bore you or is this pretty good for you?

Yeah, it's great.

Yeah. Okay, good. I don't want to bore you, Dallas. Third question. Is this choice Whatever the choice is. Now, here, obviously, it would be for porn, but it could be everything. Is this choice value equivalent to all the feelings that will follow? Is the value of this choice equivalent to all the feelings that will follow?

You're weighing out—

Literally, I wasn't going to show you this today. It's private. This is in my laptop. I just took it out for you. No lie. I just want you to know that even with 12 years of sobriety, I have to keep it real. I have to keep it fresh.

Yeah.

How can I help and coach people if I'm not being coached, if I'm not staying aware of what's going on in my own life?

Right.

I have to lead by example.

Right.

And if you do what I do, you'll get what I have. Yeah.

Yeah.

Let me tell you something. This is not fighting my porn addiction. I don't fight it because I lose. I've fought it for decades and lost every single time horribly. Once in a while, I might get it together for a week or two. But I always, to no avail, go right back. Does that make sense?

Yes.

So I stay fresh and real with my own addiction. Even though you're no longer an addict, you still have the addicted mind in there, the neurons, right?

Right.

So it has to be treated just like diabetes, just like high blood pressure. And so how do you treat it? I treat it by a village of people around me who have what I want. I treat it by just staying aware of my feelings and staying present.

Yes.

Does that make sense? I have to treat it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like, I can't just ignore it and act like I'm cured because what'll happen is my guard will come down. I'll get triggered. I get triggered. I'm a normal human being. A healthy person gets triggered by a hot woman walking down the street. Now imagine having 30 years I was addicted. 30 years.

Yeah.

Yeah. So that wiring is in there. Question number 4, what is my excellent mental health worth?

Oh, okay. Yeah.

What is it worth? What is it worth?

What is it worth?

Is it really worth not being healthy for 20 minutes or 30 minutes of pornography and objectifying and strengthening the neurons in the brain of voyeurism and lack of intimacy and objectification?

Yeah.

What is my mental health worth?

Right.

Now, back in my addiction days, like you brought out in the beginning, I mean, I watched porn for 16 hours straight, not even batting an eye. You know, that was insanity.

Yeah.

And the last question is, is the objectification and brain rot worth a few minutes of dopamine and the fix?

Yeah.

Because I'm rotting my brain.

Right.

Now, this is a healthy perspective. That sobriety gives, right? When you get a sound mind. Does that make sense?

Yes.

When we're wrapped in meth and sex addiction, we're a little insane. We're really— we're really— it's not that you're insane, Dallas, but the addiction has debilitated your thinking abilities, your morals, your values, your self-worth, healthy reflection of life, healthy perception. Does that make sense?

Oh yeah.

And what happens in sobriety, you change the way you look at a thing, the thing you're looking at will change. You've heard that before, probably. Change the way you look at a thing, change the way you're looking at meth, and in time, the meth you're looking at will change. Yeah. Yeah. So I know, you know, we're pretty much out of time now, but I, you know, and we touched base a little bit on a couple little strategies for journaling, leaving, leaving notes around to kind Keep your awareness. Because what this— you know what this does, Dallas? It slows you down. It'll slow you down.

It causes you to pause, right?

Correct.

Yes.

Pause and look at that. And you know why I wrote this?

Why did you write it?

Because I'm worth it today, Dallas.

Yes.

Because I'm worth—

You're worth it.

Loving. I am worth it. And I'm worth love. And I'm worth being loved. And I'm worth loving myself today. And I'm aware that those neurons are still in there. They didn't go anywhere. They're not strong. They're not activated. They're not being like all that. Those electrical charges aren't really going through them. They're filled with cobwebs right now. I'm no longer an addict. I don't act out, but it's in there. Does that make sense?

It does.

So I got to keep that fresh. It's very important. I am no longer going to live my life in denial. In denial.

Right.

Does that make sense? Because denial will lead you down that road again.

That's right.

Yeah.

And I think it's important too. I think it's a good point for anyone out there who is hard on themselves for having to create environments like that, for having to leave notes for themselves or set up a— or have somebody stay with them when they're feeling extra triggered. Those things are okay. And if it's—

Medication.

Yeah. If it's 5 years down the road, it's okay. You do what you have to do. I've been— it's been— it's almost 6 years for me. And I was at the gym over the weekend and I looked down and I had all these veins popping out of my arm. And all of a sudden, it was this trigger.

Oh, I see. Okay. I thought you were proud of yourself, but I see.

All of a sudden, I see these veins and my body reacts.

Right.

As if I wanted to eject. And so, suddenly my heart's beating, I'm sweating, burning in the back of my throat. My body remembers exactly how it feels.

Yes, it does. Yes.

And so, that may never go away, but like you said, it's, okay, I'm triggered. Now, what do I do with that?

Correct.

I have tools in place.

Correct, Dallas. And that's something, please, anyone that's watching this, If you are addicted right now and you're really struggling, be aware of that. It's not— once— when you're ready and you're able to reach out to Dallas, you can reach out to me. My website is sexaddictionrelief.com.

Where can we find you?

sexaddictionrelief.com, right, exactly. I have a YouTube channel. It's all connected on my website. So sexaddictionrelief.com.

Okay, gotcha.

You understand that when you're ready and you're willing to do what it takes truly, and really delve deep into your soul of who you really are deep down there. Because in meth and sex addiction, you're not who you are. You're living through addiction. It's not always going to be a fight, I promise. It really isn't a fight anymore. Dallas, I know you can— the thought will come and that's okay. But you know what? You're going to have such power in your life. The power you're going to learn in your life of self-discipline and self-control and understanding yourself and building your value and loving yourself and Loving sobriety, loving, like enjoying life and gratitude and mowing your lawn and feeling present. And if someone needs you, you're available. And you're in a relationship where you're loved. Someone really loves you for all of who you are. You're not wearing masks anymore, walking around with these masks pretending to be somebody you're not.

Yeah.

See, and you're doing that in your addiction. You won't do that anymore. And when you have the thought of using, I promise you, I promise you, it's a guarantee, If you give it a chance, a long enough chance, because you have to change your life, and it takes a little while to develop new patterns of behavior, new patterns of thinking, new patterns of thought, new ways of living your life. It takes time to do it, and you can do it. And when you're there, and when you arrive, when you realize you're connected to God, the God of your understanding could be the universal vibration of love. When you realize you are connected, because you feel so alone in your addiction, you feel so separate. From God, the universe, people. You feel so isolated and filled with shame and hate yourself that when you do experience true soundness of mind, you're going to realize you're not separate from the universe. You're not separate from other people. It was an illusion. It was a lie you told yourself. And you wanted to be loved. You wanted to be valued and needed. And you wanted to be a whole person. And somehow, somewhere along the lines, You think you found it through drugs and sex and this outburst of dopamine in your brain.

Yes.

All of it is an illusion. All of it is a lie. You have to learn the truth. And when you get there, you won't fight these feelings anymore. A thought will come, a feeling will come, but what soundness of mind gives you is power to make decisions that strengthen and build the love you have for yourself. That's what you get when you get away from the hell you're living. It is time to go into the unknown heaven and take a look at the opportunities by people who have succeeded. And I'm going to wrap it up with this, Dallas, and I know you can have the same words. If living this way didn't offer me the solution to my problems, if living this way didn't bring me true peace and serenity, if living this way didn't bring me really love and value that I was searching for my whole whole life, I'd go back to the sex and drugs and meth. I'd go back.

Yeah.

But this is giving me everything I really wanted.

Right.

And if it was so bad being this way, the place you're scared to death to go to, I'd go back and I'd meet you there. But it's not. It's worth it. So are you.

Yeah.

That's my last word there, Dallas.

Well, mic drop, mic drop on that one.

Good job.

Rob, it is always, always, always. It's always a pleasure talking with you. You are so full of knowledge and I just, I'm always a better person after leaving every conversation with you. So, I appreciate you. Thank you.

You should say that to everybody, Dallas. Thanks, Dallas. I appreciate it. And listen, if you ever want to do a podcast in the future to delve more deeply into specifically meth or sex and then more deeply into really the solution because I think that's what, you know, today was nice and it was great. But there are certain strategies and techniques that you can really learn to apply, practice, and master in your life that will change and transform your life even while you're in addiction.

Yes, definitely. 100%. We'll have you back. So, thank you. All right, my brother. When we hang up, just make sure to leave the app open until it says uploaded. And we will see everybody next time. Hey, y'all. I hope you enjoyed that episode with my buddy Rob. That was a lot of information to take. You may have to go back and listen again to get everything that he was saying. Everything about Rob in terms of how to reach him, how to work with him, is going to be in the show notes. So check him out, go to his website. As far as my website, it is drdallasbragg.com, or you can check out the Aftermath website. If you want to look at our podcast website, it is www.aftermath.net. And on the website, I want to Make sure that you understand that you can ask questions there, you can submit stories there, you can interact with us from the website. So if you have a burning story you want to tell, you have a question, there's a place where you can write a goodbye letter to your crystal meth addiction. There's a Hot Meth Express category where you can get something off your chest that you want to share, maybe a crazy story or something that's deep and dark. Secret that you just need to get out because it's a cathartic way to relieve that, the pressure, the shame, the guilt that you might be feeling from that memory. It's there too. There's an option for friends, loved ones of meth addicts to ask questions or share stories. There's also the aftermath, which is an uplifting, wonderful story that you'd like to share about Your sobriety, something about your sobriety that you'd like to share that could uplift and inspire someone else. You can submit those at aftermath.net, or you can call and leave us a voicemail message at 704-559-9555. If you leave a voicemail, we may actually play it on the show unless you tell us not to. We're going to read some of these questions and sharing on the show as well. All of it is anonymous. Please remember to like, share, and rate the podcast. Please rate the podcast. Please write a review to help the algorithm get the podcast in front of more people. I would really, really, really appreciate it. I hope you see that what we're doing and the intention behind it. So please help us promote the podcast. If you'd like to be a guest or you know someone that could be a guest, please send an email to aftermathpod@gmail.com.

All right.

Thank you guys. We'll see you next time.