EP 1:31 I'm Here, I'm Queer, I'm Sober! with Phil

Because we are more than just gay men. We are more than just guys that got to get laid. There's more to life than sex. Yes.

Thank you. Yeah, but there's just so much pressure, though. There's so much pressure to be a certain stereotype. Like we We're trying to fight against stereotypes, but we have pressure to be that stereotype. Welcome to the After Meth Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create a repository of resources for current and past addicts, as well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermath. Trigger warning, this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey and you feel like you could be triggered by discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, Please do not listen to this podcast. All right, now on with the show. Okay, welcome back to this episode of The Aftermath. I am pleased to have my new friend Phil on the show this week. We met in a Facebook group called Here Queer Sober, which we're going to talk about here. If you're not familiar with it, please find it on Facebook. You know, honestly, there are a few really nice sober communities on Facebook. If you haven't looked, I know Facebook seems to be not in anymore, but it's a really good place for groups, you know. I mean, I don't know anywhere else where you can really have that kind of community that's free and you can, you know, talk back and forth, share ideas. But there are some really great sober groups. And by the way, we do have the Aftermath community. I'll plug that in, um, on the— on Facebook. We are making some changes there, um, but you can still find us at the Aftermath Community on Facebook. So without further ado, Phil, why don't you introduce yourself to us today?

And sure thing, Dallas. So hi guys and gals, my name's Phil. I am a recovering crystal meth addict, and bear with me one second because I want to just verify Something. I have been clean and sober for 2,649 days, which is a little bit over 7 months. I got clean on April 9th, 2017, and that's been one heck of an experience. I will go more into it, you know, As this episode progresses. But for here and now, I am an openly gay man living in St. Paul, Minnesota, while I am working on a master's degree in counseling with a concentration in addiction counseling at the Hazleton Betty Ford Graduate School located here in Minnesota. I originally am from New York City. New York is, was, and always shall be home. And that did play a part of my addiction issues. And I'll get into that a little bit more as we move along.

7 years, right? You had said 7 months.

7, yeah.

2,649 days. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's eight.

Yeah. Isn't that something? What'd you say?

I think that's like eighty-six months or so.

Yeah.

There's a reason why I'm in counseling, not teaching math.

Well, that's that's that's super. That's that's inspiring. That's um. I love it. And April 2017, I was in my active addiction pretty heavily. So it's making me reflect a little bit. So Phil, if you can maybe reflect a little bit on how long did you use and were you in New York City during that time?

So my use started somewhere between the end of 2011 and the— yeah, somewhere between like 2011 and 2013. Um, I was in New York City. I was actually still living at home, um, in Queens. And, uh, yeah, so I'm kind of iffy on like the exact starting point because My use started off socially, recreationally, via a certain app or two. And the first time it was offered, it wasn't even really offered. The, the guy had shotgunned me. And then when our lips parted, he took the pipe, turned it, and put it up to my mouth. I didn't even actually realize what it was. But I was, like I said, very social recreational. I didn't have my own supplies. I didn't have my own stash. I didn't even know anybody else. Or, you know, it was only whenever I happened to get together with this one guy. Yeah. But then slowly but surely, we started getting together more frequently, and then all of a sudden there were other people. And then one time he ran out, so we got in the car and went to his dealer, and I was like, "Well, if I'm at your dealer, I might as well get some myself also." So it was somewhere between like like I said between like 2011 and. 2013. And I can only give you that sort of vague answer because my mom had died in 2010 and I was dealing with my dad and his alcoholism during that timeframe while also trying to maintain a career. So that's why it's not a dark point in my history, but it's a blurry point in my history that is now more than 10 years ago. So we prefer to stay focused here and now and just kind of glance back to, to answer a question.

That's right. That's right. And for you straighties who listen, and family and friends, a shotgun is when you inhale the smoke and you blow it into the other person's mouth. And that's what he said when their lips parted. So it's good for family and friends to know what these terms mean. Um, okay. Yeah, like you said, we want to move forward, but I want to know, um, there are some of my listeners who have this desire to continue working, to recreationally use here, there, um, you know, maybe a long weekend or whatever. And it sounds like that was kind of the beginning. Um, did you Tell yourself, did you? Were you trying to make yourself believe that you could manage a job and life and use at the same time?

Yes. So, like I said, I didn't even know what he had, what was in that pipe that first time, and I just kind of like I like I mentioned, it took me a while to get. My own stash and my own supplies and all that. So at that point, it was still like recreationally, socially, you know, I actually was so busy with life and other things that I wouldn't even think about hanging out with him. But when he would reach out to me, I'd be like, okay, yeah, sure, let's hang out. Because I'm home from work or whatever else. But as my disease of addiction progressed, I was somewhat fortunate because I was working in insurance sales. And so I was not a traditional W-2 employee. I was a 1099 independent contractor. So if I didn't go into work, It wasn't the end of the world. I didn't have my supervisor calling me up going, "Um, you were supposed to be here. Where are you?" It was more of I'm showing up. I'm doing my thing. Give me my residual checks because the insurance policies are being paid. You know, so it was it was one of those things where I was maintaining a balance because I had transitioned out of. The career industry that I loved and was venturing into this new opportunity, which gave me too much independence. You know, the lack of structure, the lack of, okay, Phil, you work Monday, Wednesday, Thursday from this time to this time, you know, was really, was really beneficial to the disease. Because there was no accountability. And a lot of the work that I needed to do, I was able to do on off hours, you know, when I was awake at 2 in the morning and things like that. So it was, for a while, I was able to balance, but Slowly but surely, the the scales got tipped, and after my dad died, I was taking care of my grandmother, and she died. And that's when things really started to spiral even further because now I had zero responsibilities and. You know, was my own boss, owned my own home, and was king of the castle. I wasn't letting anybody tell me what to do, when to do it. I was doing it when I wanted to. You know, as long as the bills were all paid, you know, I didn't see a problem. You know, as somebody that grew up being picked on for being gay, for being different, you know, even for being left-handed, you know. Yeah, yeah, it was one of those things where I, I thought I was finally becoming popular because, yeah, there was always a guy or 2 or 12 that wanted to come over, you know, right? They didn't want to hang out with me. They wanted to hang out with my son.

Right.

You know, they wanted to do what they wanted to do in this house where there were no parents or spouses or other responsible, you know, people. You know, the house became really this free-for-all. You know, my ex-boyfriend, yeah, who was also a crystal meth addict, was the biggest user of the house. You know, we lived together, but he never contributed to the house in a traditional sense. You know, like, if we needed groceries or pay a bill, he would magically disappear. But as soon as the sling was set up, as soon as the needles were acquired, as soon as We got back to the dealer, he magically reappeared. You know?

Yeah, it's like the Bat Signal up in the sky.

Totally, totally. Didn't help that he drove a Nissan 350Z too. But you know what? You know what? Only because I just mentioned that car. I have not heard from him since before I went to rehab. I don't— I'm pretty sure he's alive. Um, and if he's listening, I hope he's listening. And I hope, I hope he got his shit together because God knows he and I were horrible for each other. But we also were both actively using. So.

Yeah, maybe he'll reach out to you after this.

Uh, he won't be able to because I got a new telephone number since then. There's a reason why. And we're not going down that road because this is the aftermath. So we're staying focused on the good things that have come.

That's right. That's right. Right, right, right, right. Okay. Yeah. All right. So you mentioned rehab. Was there— so we can fast forward through the, you know, what we always hear, the orgies and all the stuff. And the descent into, uh, and the descent into destruction. So when did you wake up? When did you get— come up for air? What was the spark there? And can you tell us about that?

Okay, so it was, it was Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving 2016. I around then I was barely speaking to my family. I was using every day intravenously, and I sold the house in New York City, and I moved about an hour north up to Rockland County, New York, right on the Hudson River, to a small two-bedroom townhouse. And, you know, when you downsize in real estate, you have a lot of money to, you know, pay for the townhouse in full. And so I was really off to the races at that point. But I knew that I was on thin ice with my family. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and I was going to buy my way back into their hearts with the most amazing Christmas presents. And well, because Christmas was— Christmas was right around the corner, I'm like, I'm gonna show up. They're all gonna love me. They're all gonna love the 130 pounds of me, which was like this. Yeah, yeah, she wasn't pretty at the end, but, uh, I, yeah, I literally jumped in my car and drove to the bank, put my ATM card into the machine, tried to take out some cash to go do some Christmas shopping. Insufficient fund fee, insufficient funds notification, try a lower amount, you know. And I'm like, but I'm not reading what the thing— what the receipt from the ATM is saying. So I go into the branch and I'm like, guys, there's something wrong with my ATM card. The teller looks it up and goes, no, no, Mr. Bruckey, we closed your account because there's no money in it.

Oh, wow.

Oh, shit. All of the bills, the HOA, the homeowner's insurance, the utility bills, Everything was linked to that account. So that was when I said, shit, party's over. Because—

Oh, wow.

Both of my parents are deceased. You know, I can't go home to mom and dad and say, I fucked everything up. I won't swallow my pride and call my big brother. I'm like, you know what, I got myself into this mess. I'll get myself out of this mess. That, and I had a 20— this was, like I said, Thanksgiving, Christmas time, 2016. I had a 2016 Land Rover Discovery. I took that car to a Jeep dealership. I brokered a deal for a very basic Jeep Cherokee. It literally didn't even have 4-wheel drive.

Okay.

So I downgraded and I got myself a very nice check. To set up a new bank account and to start to work my way out of out of financial you know mess, you know get all the bills back on par, put some food in my kitchen, put some food available for my dog, you know um you know and but I still wouldn't. Fully swallow my pride. One of the dealers that I was a frequent customer of wound up staying in my home for like three weeks or so in early 2016. So yes, I was still using, and like I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, my clean date is April 9th. So how did I get from? Starting to dig myself out to April 9th was I was very fortunate that friends of mine that I went to college with that live in upstate New York had they had started a family. They had two little kids, and they were like, you know, we haven't seen you in forever. Come up and visit. Come up for a long weekend, and that long weekend was supposed to be three days turned into three weeks because they are aware of what addiction issues look like, and they've known me now over twenty years, and they just knew that I was struggling. I never actually said. Guys, I need your help. But they knew that as long as I was near their kids, I wasn't getting high because I was too afraid of fucking up the friendships because the kid, you know, God forbid, you know, a 6— at the time, 6-month-old baby got into a stash of meth. That's just a recipe for disaster.

Yeah, right.

You know, so I at least always managed to maintain that. And my buddy and I got into a disagreement one night. And when I went to bed, I looked at my dog and I said, Case, we've outstayed our welcome. And we got in the car in the middle of the night and drove home. Yeah. But my buddy got up in the morning And saw that my car was gone, and my dog was gone, and everything else. He turned around and called my brother. Now, my brother had my brother had some suspicion that I had been using and things, but my brother and I weren't very close at the time. We lived like five hours away from each other. So it was one of those like you're my brother. I will help you if you need help, but. I'm 5 hours away, so, you know, call me if you need me. Well, and I wouldn't call because I wouldn't say I need help. Um, and so my buddy calling my brother, my brother got in the car and drove down to my place because my buddy said to him, he looks like crap. If you don't get him in somewhere, he's gonna be dead.

Mm-hmm.

And so my brother started driving. I, I had gotten home, slept for a little bit, got up and literally went to a barbershop to get a haircut because I'm like, all right, I've been, I've been white-knuckling for 3 weeks, you know, while I was around kids. I was white-knuckling. I was clean. I was determined to try, you know, and So I'm like, you know what? I look like crap. Go to the barbershop, clean up. We're gonna be a 35-year-old responsible adult. You know, by the time I got home from the barbershop, my brother's car and my aunt and uncle's car were in the parking lot of my townhouse.

Hmm.

And my family has this thing where we have keys to each other's homes. So I pull in and I see their cars and I go, now the party's really over because they have keys. They've been inside. The place is a mess. They're not gonna find any drugs.

Oh, yeah.

They're not gonna find any drugs because there are none because I've been away for 3 weeks. But they're gonna find the remnants. They're gonna find the pipes, they're gonna find the used syringes, they're gonna find the sex toys, they're gonna find Just the disaster zone that was this townhouse. And my brother looked at me and said, "I came here expecting to find your body." Oh wow! And he's like, "You have a problem. You need help." And I looked at him and I said, "You're right." I said, "Let's figure out what to do with my dog." And I'll go somewhere. You know, and we did. We did. Like I mentioned, my college buddy, you know, and his wife are aware of addiction issues. So they recommended a place. They gave my brother that information. And we called. And I had to wait a couple of days for a bed to be open. But a bed opened up, and my brother dropped me off. And wow, it was exactly what I needed. It was exactly what I needed. I and while I was in rehab, we put my townhouse on the market. My brother moved all of my belongings into storage. Near my aunt and uncle in New Jersey. And the agreement was that me and my dog would move in with my aunt and uncle till I could finish getting my head out of my ass, you know? Yeah, start a sober, clean life. And, you know, and I remember that, so So my 28th day at rehab would've been the Saturday of Memorial Day weekend, 2017. And I remember talking to my counselor, like, leading up to it and going, yeah, so I'm going to be discharged on Saturday because it's the 28th day. He's like, no, you're not. And I'm like, excuse me, why not?

Hmm.

Well, we don't discharge on, you know, The holiday weekend. You're you're staying till Tuesday, and I said, "I'm not paying for you know for three more days." He's like, "He's like, well, it's gonna be four days, and we're not charging you." And I go, "Okay, fine, cool." You know, I would I would broken, and I just said, "Let me swallow my pride." Shut my mouth and open up my ears, because plenty of people have addiction issues. Like I mentioned, I was dealing with my dad and his alcoholism. My brother and I descend from a long line of alcoholics. I had to be one better. I became a drug addict. You know, so I remember. I got to the front door of my aunt and uncle's house, and I had an iced coffee in hand and my dog on the leash. And I looked at my dog and I said, Casey, give me one year here with them, and we'll be back out on our own. We're gonna be okay. It turned out to be 18 months because of life, but we then moved out. We had our own apartment for 13 months. Weird number for a lease, but whatever. Um, and in those 13 months, I finally proved to myself that I could be a functional adult. You know, my bills were always paid, there was money in the bank, there was food in the kitchen. You know, um, because— The reality of it all is that I grew up, and while I was in college, my mom got sick, and my dad and I took care of my mom. And then my mom died, and then I got stuck with my dad. So thank God for me, for the 12 steps of Narcotics Anonymous and Crystal Meth Anonymous, because that helped me put my life in perspective. And an agreement that I had with my brother was that I did spend a year Seeing a therapist, you know, in addition to 12-step. And my therapist pointed out, he's like, Phil, you never got to mourn how you needed to mourn all of your family members. You know, so you have that and you have the genetic predisposition for addiction issues. You know, plus being a gay man in New York City. That has always struggled with weight. You know, he's he's like you were the perfect storm waiting to happen. But yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's kind of how we wound up, you know, into rehab and getting out of rehab.

Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you for sharing all that. I want to reiterate for the listeners. So. Family and friends or or not. This is another example of an intervention that worked. You know, there's so many people that call in or they call me. I made the mistake of putting my phone number on my TikTok, but until I took it off, I was getting calls, texts, emails, DMs from family. You know, my brother is. In this drug, my husband, my partner, whatever, and they don't know what to do, right? So an intervention could be a possibility. Now the thing is, is that many times though, the addict, if they're not looking for a way out, then, you know, you can try, but a lot of times they have to want help. Phil's example was he was, he was at the bottom here. He had nowhere else to go. He was cornered. Like a, like a rat by his family, you know. But an intervention worked. But thank God, right? I mean, thank God that they, they came and, and cared enough to intervene, or you would have been coming back to this house, who knows, right? After your haircut, who knows what would have happened, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Um, and the other, the other part I want to underscore too is after rehab, you lived with family. And there's, there's this pride that we have sometimes as, as addicts, especially the us men who are older, about moving back in with family. And the thing is, is that, look, you have to be sometimes very extreme to keep yourself away from this drug out of rehab. Because it's insidious, as you know, and you returning back to the same environment, the chances of you going back into it are really high. But you have to sometimes really limit yourself. You have to move in with mom and you have to obey by her rules. And, you know, you have a curfew and you're 45 years old. I'm talking to me. That was me. You know, I mean, things happen. You have to do what you got to do if you want to be sober sometimes. I just want to— I wanted to reiterate that too. So you, you and the doggy were 13 months in this, on this lease, and you, you were paying your bills, you were operating. Um, and then, so what— how did you— what was next for you? What is life like in sobriety after that? Um, social circles, sober sex, if you want to talk, if you can talk about that. Um, your intimacy. These are, these are big questions that we have, uh, from our listeners a lot, um, is, okay, I'm sober, but now what? I don't want to have sex, or my parts don't work, or I don't, I don't want to engage with gay men because I'm traumatized. Uh, what can you say to all of that?

So, um, okay, so, so during that, that time of living on my own I was living near Asbury Park, New Jersey, which is kind of the beginning of the Jersey Shore, you know, and a fairly— it's more than a gay-friendly area, it's— but it's not predominantly gay, but it's where a lot of the Jersey gays are. And actually, with regards to the social aspect, 2017 was when the first CMA meeting got started in New Jersey, you know, and it was right there at—

Really?

Yeah, you know, uh, so socially I was involved with building up the CMA fellowship in New Jersey. Um, you know, over time we expanded and, you know, I hope they're doing well, um, because I've been living out here now for a year and a half, so I'm not sure. Where they're at. But, you know, uh, socially, on the very broad, uh, kind of definition, I was just kind of settling back into my own skin. I was going into New York City, going to museums, going to shows, just living life, um, you know, but usually with at least one other person that was in recovery from something, whether it was alcohol or drugs. I developed this social network of people that I had a little bit more in common with. With regards to sober sex, Before I went to rehab, I used to joke around that my townhouse was the best little whorehouse in northern Rockland County. And the further joke was that I went from living in a whorehouse to living in a monastery, living at my aunt and uncle's. Because, yeah, yeah, it's just one of those things where, you know, They were already in their 70s or no, sorry, late 60s. But, you know, and they never had children and it was just one of those things where this is going to be awkward, you know. So I was basically celibate for my first 18 months of recovery, you know.

Oh, okay.

Half kind of forced because it was like, where am I going to go have sex, you know? Um, but also more by choice, because obviously with meth it kicks everything into overdrive, including your sex drive. And I had a lot of sex during my active addiction, you know. And so I really wanted the time to just chill the fuck out, honestly, and really do some soul searching and restoring friendships. And honestly, not to sound vulgar, but to give my dick a break, you know?

Yeah.

So yeah, but after a while, you know, things start working again. And, you know, the first time I had sober sex was in my apartment, actually, with a guy that I met at, um, I met at an NA meeting, you know, and he was, he was clean over 5 years. And I had— it was actually just after my second anniversary, so it was like April 2019 was when—

Wow.

Was when I started having sober sex, you know. Um, Okay. Yeah, you know, it was, it was kind of funny actually, you know, um, because I was just like, oh wait, we're doing this? Okay, um, how do you want to do this?

Did you forget how?

Uh, yeah, you know, because, because, you know, it was one of those things like, you know, talking to the Talking to your sex partner and having a conversation about what you want to do, how you want to do it, is important. You know, consent— consent is sexy. It wasn't something I was ever really thinking about while I was high.

Mm-hmm.

You know, while I was under the influence of methamphetamine, certain things worked really well, which made me really popular. with people that it didn't work so well with. So—

I think we get— I think we're reading between the lines.

Exactly.

Good for you. You were one of the blessed ones.

Yep. I was the unicorn. I was the unicorn.

Literally.

Yeah.

It must have been— yeah, you must not have had any trimix around.

Oh, no need for that.

But good for you. Yeah. So you waited.

Yep.

You, you took some time off and you had patience and took a break. And I think that's such great advice. And I think there's a lot of guys that just don't want to hear it. It's like, it's everybody I ask on the show. It's the same advice. I waited. I had patience. I found a partner that I could practice consent with. Yeah, you know, that's it.

And you know what I mean?

It's—

that's not only it, but, but, but you know what? Here's gonna be my comment on the waiting. To the gay men that are listening, we are not biological women with a biological clock ticking. We do not have society going, oh, when are you having a baby? Oh, when are you starting a family? So in that regard, put some cotton in your ears and ignore society. We are gay men. We have sex to satisfy an urge. And you know what? In a world of instant gratification, where you can order something on Amazon, and if you're in a major metropolitan city, it's delivered to your home in under an hour. Yeah.

Stop.

Stop. You know, gay—the gay men are notorious for being sexually active. Period. End of sentence. But you know what? We are also family members. We are employees. We are business owners. We are so many other things. We are not just people that have sex. Take the time now to discover what you're passionate about. Take the time to rebuild those friendships with Some of your hetero friends. Take the time to go to a museum. Take the time to do your step work if you're in 12-step fellowship. Take the time to be the change. You've broken the cycle of addiction in yourself, and that is fan-fucking-tastic. Now is your chance to break this cycle about us, because that's right, enough is enough. You know, you know, you've surrendered because of the powerlessness of addiction, and that is huge, and I commend you. But we have so many other things that we need to be working on right now as a society.

That's exactly right.

You know, So I'm sorry, I didn't mean to get preachy and sound like I was up on a soapbox, but—

Keep going.

You know what, funny story. My uncle— so in the, in that first 18 months of living with my aunt and uncle, so my aunt is the rel— is my blood relative. Her husband, you know, married into my family. And, uh, but strangely enough, You had the 3 of us, all Capricorns, living together under the same roof. It was awkward at times. But I, I had some stupid, sassy gay boy comment about something. Now, my uncle was also my godfather.

Hmm.

And he slammed his fist down on the kitchen table and went, Damn it, Philip, must you always have a sassy-ass comment? You don't need to remind us that you're gay. He's like, I have known you since the day you were born. He's like, you— yeah, you're gay, but you're also my nephew. You're also my godson. You're also Matthew's brother. Mm-hmm. You're also a kind person. You're also a giving person. And he just went at me and was like, the world doesn't need the constant barrage that you're gay because you're more than just a gay man. And that stuck with me, you know, because in the So he— my uncle unfortunately died in 2019. So in the 37 years that I knew him, that was the only time he ever yelled at me. It was the only time that I was actually afraid for a moment. 'Cause I just went—

Wow.

Oh damn. My uncle was a very kind human being. He grew up in Kentucky, you know, was just this always very warm, loving man. And he was a bigger guy. So when he slammed his hand down on the table, it, you know, it— the house shook for a moment. You know, So, and I share that with the listeners, because we are more than just gay men. We are more than just guys that got to get laid. There's more to life than sex.

Yes. Thank you. Yeah, but there's just so much pressure, though. There's so much pressure to be a certain stereotype. Like, we, we're trying to fight against stereotypes, but we have pressure to be that stereotype.

Yeah.

To sleep around, and like you said, to be sassy or whatever. But especially the sex, especially the pressure to fuck around with as many people as you can in groups and at parties and Dates aren't a date unless you fuck at the end. I mean, it's, you know, that's the messages we're given.

Absolutely. Because, and you know what, I— so my roommate here in St. Paul is another gay man. And we're close in age. And we've had this conversation all the time about we have a lack of role models. You know, gays of a certain age, myself and older, you know, didn't have role models growing up, you know.

Yeah.

I mean, hell, you know, Betty White was the one who kind of outed Cary Grant to the world, and that was only like within the last 10 years, you know. But, you know, so I jokingly say that most gay men should be diagnosed with Peter Pan syndrome. We're the boys that never grew up. Because we didn't have, we didn't have gay men that we could look up to and learn how to be a productive member of society, learn how to be a faithful partner if that's what we choose. Yeah. And you know what, Dallas, you are 100% right. There is this pressure from society, you know, to be the sassy one, to be the skinniest, to have, you You know, for what? You know what, lumps of coal, when you put them under pressure, turn into diamonds. And yeah, you know what, the gym body will fade, your looks will fade, or you're gonna spend a ton of money on Botox. And you know what, Botox is literally a toxin. Out of cows, bovine, bovine toxin, Botox. If I'm putting anything from a cow in me, it's going to be milk or it's going to be a burger. Because yeah, you know what? I know who I am, and it was because I took that time off from giving into the gay society expectations. of the orgies and fuckfests. And, you know, yeah, you know what, I am so much more comfortable in my own skin now that—

Mm-hmm.

I don't, you know, I don't need to go to the bathhouse. I might choose to go to the bathhouse because, eh, it's crappy weather out, nothing else to do, let's go. But you know what? As a choice, I could also choose to go to a museum. I can choose to go to a concert. You know, I can choose to go to a 12-step meeting and connect with people on a different level. You know, and I can choose to make my world better. And then I could also choose to go scratch an itch, because sometimes you gotta scratch an itch, right? So, right, right.

Yeah, right. That was one of the biggest learnings I had in my sobriety, was that because when I came out, I thought it was the answer to my problems, but it wasn't. And what I found out was being a gay— being gay was actually a a part of me, but it's not who— what defines me, you know.

Absolutely.

Um, what defines me was all these other parts that I hadn't discovered yet that actually I was hiding. They were shadows of me, of myself, you know. And through, through my recovery, I got to shine light and meet these other parts and discover who I was. And when you are really sure about who you are and you are comfortable in your skin, that's when sex can be more— so much more exhilarating and fulfilling because you're in a different place too. Um, and the other part that I wanted to say is role models. The thing that I'd like to see is leaders that have influence in the gay community start to have conversations about what's happening with drugs, what's happening with crystal meth especially in our community. And speak out about it, because it seems like there's gay leaders and influencers who aren't talking about it because it might take away from this right to have as much sex as you want. You know, the sexual freedom that we've, we've fought for. We didn't, we didn't really fight for sexual freedom though, is what, you know, the thing is, is that I've just— I don't want to get into all of that, but I just wish there was somebody who had a voice. Who can start to make a difference and turn some awareness around in the mainstream media of what is happening in our community with this drug and why. But anyway, we won't solve that tonight. Um, so you— what you're saying a lot of, um, is reminding me of the community that we met in Um, Here Queer— here, sorry, Here Queer Sober. Queer— no, I'm not—

Here Queer Sober.

Here Queer Sober. Oh my gosh, it's not that hard. Um, Here Queer Sober. Um, I came, and it's— I'll say this, um, but you know, I've been in other gay sober groups, and it was a lot— I felt a lot of the same as what we're saying. There's a lot of pressure to be sex— sexual, um, and to kind of idolize, um, the sexiest of sexies. And, um, I— it was just, to me, was missing the point of what we're trying to do as a, as a group. When I found your group, it was a completely different, uh, open, accepting, um, and spacious atmosphere. Even though— even you can tell even on Facebook.

Mm-hmm.

you know, that was much more accepting. Um, and plus, you— it's, it's anyone who's queer is allowed, right?

Exactly. Yep. Yep.

So do you want to talk about how this group came about and what your role is?

Sure thing. So, um, so 4 or 5 months ago, um, a couple of friends, uh, and I who were part of a different Facebook group that was exclusively gay male, gay cisgendered men, and exclusively 12-step. We were— our friendship was growing because we kept saying Why are we being so exclusionary? You know, the rainbow flag is supposed to be inclusive of everybody. And so for a number of years, actually, we had been trying to expand, trying to be the LGBTQIA community, trying to include and respect those that are in recovery, but use a harm reduction approach, or use recovery dharma, or use, you know, SMART recovery. Because those programs have— excuse me— almost as good a success rate— excuse me—

That's right.

12-step fellowship. They just haven't been around as long as Bill W's AA, right? You know, so, and we, we tried, we tried for a while. And it fell on deaf ears. And we said, you know what, we're gonna walk away, we're gonna start our own, we're gonna start something that is open to every single letter of the community. We're going to open up something that is inclusive. We're going to open up something that is love and respect and acceptance of body type, of orientation, of gender identity. Of recovery pathway because we were looking at the world at large and said, the world is so divisive right now. They are pitting everybody against everybody. So we're going to try something. So that's how Here Queer and Sober got started. Because if you want to see the change, sometimes you have to be the change. That's right. You know, sometimes you can't follow the other lemmings off the cliff. Sometimes you gotta turn right and go, gee, let me camp out over here for a minute and see Yeah, who's around? Yeah, you know, right. The thing that I love about Here Queer Sober is every every single time we are every single time I log into that Facebook group, I see so many people that I would never have seen. You know, from literally around the globe in this band. You know what? Bear with me one second. I want to just double check something so that I get it correct. Uh, yeah. So July fifth was the five month mark of Here Queer Silver. Okay. So in five 5 short months, 4 people have started and grown a Facebook group to over 1,200 people. Wow. That is nothing but— well, that's amazing. We have seen people post in there that they are struggling and that they need to get into treatment. And somebody that's a member of the group that works at a treatment center saw it. I reached out to that person. I get goosebumps every time I talk about that, you know? Yeah, yeah. Because that's, that's what we're trying to build, and that's what we're working towards. I'm very excited, you know. The last weekend of September 2025, so 14 months from now, Here Queer Sober is hosting its first of hopefully many roundups in New York City at the Marriott Marquis in the heart of Times Square. You know, and we have such a fantastic group of people working on programming, where there's going to be some traditional 12-step workshops, but we're also looking at alternative pathways, you know, workshops where, you know—

I love that.

We are, and it's, it's going to be like It's a 3-day— it's like a 2.5-day conference. It's like arrive Friday afternoon, we do a bunch of stuff Saturday, and then y'all head out on Sunday. Like we said, let's keep it intimate. We don't want to go ballistic.

Yeah.

I may or may not have said on several planning things, let's not set the bar too high. Let's set it at a reasonable height so that we hit it and maybe get a little bit further, you know. Um, register. Yeah, you know, we are limiting it to only 150, um, attendees because again, didn't want to set the bar too high, you know. Um, also in working with the hotel, it was a reasonable price point, you know, to, you know, you know, as opposed to saying— We're gonna sell 500 tickets and then we only sell 275. You know, yeah, you know, yeah, you know, basic economics is try to like limit your expenses, limit your overhead.

Yeah.

You know, so if you set them, you know, so we are very excited about the Year First Over Roundup. You know, um, like I, I think I mentioned it, the registration for it is open. You know, at this point, oh, okay, you can actually go and get your ticket for the conference, for the roundup. The price is going to stay exactly as it is right now. So if you are— oh, nice. Yeah, if you are listening or watching this podcast right now, and you're counting days, and you're, you know, Just starting out, maybe maybe say I'm gonna save up some money and get to that conference. You know, because even fourteen months out, you know, so you know it's yeah, you know, and like Dallas mentioned, it's a Facebook group. You know, so you could find us there. You know, and I'll be more than happy to. You know, admit you into the group, you know, and have you become part of a fantastic organization. And, you know, where you hopefully will not only find your tribe, but find the ways to live in the aftermath, because life after meth is so much better than life—

Yeah.

Than life during meth. You know, um, during meth. Yeah. Yeah. God, if I—

Yeah, great. Yeah, I'm gonna put the, the links in the show notes to the group and the registration link. Cool. Thank you. Um, and get in there when you can. And, you know, for those of you who are in rural areas and you, you know, you contact me and you say, well, there's no, no gays around here, there's no gay sober groups and stuff, this could be a, a way to connect, you know. I mean, especially build these friendships and then go see them in person in New York City. I mean, you have 14 months to save up. Who knows, you know?

Yeah.

Um, this could be a really good way to connect with people. The way that we are virtually existing these days anyway, sometimes you can connect and make a friendship with somebody who's halfway around the world more than you can somebody who lives in the same city. Um, so You know, this could be a, um, a transition. You know, when you're first coming out of this drug, you have to drop all your quote-unquote friends that you have and start over. So why not start over with some, some gay and queer and sober people? So yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, Phil, I have really enjoyed this very much. Um, what a story you have. I love this story. Um, I love your viewpoints, your perspective. Um, it's, uh, refreshing, to be honest. And I really love this group, uh, this group that we're in, this Facebook group. I have posted several times in there that I'm just really grateful that it's there, and it's— I just love seeing it. Um, when I go to Pride celebrations and it's more— it— when it has a tone that matches what your group has, I'm just in in such appreciation, you know, when it's all queer people and we're— we are celebrating diversity and differences and our rights, but it doesn't have to be a fuckfest, you know. That's when it— when Pride is like that, um, I'm really happy to see it and really appreciative. So thank you again. And guys, you know the drill, um, please rate the, um, podcast, uh, give us a review, share it, like it. Send it to your friends, your family, uh, post it on your social media, please. And if you have questions or you want to submit anonymous stories or things that you want to say about your addiction, you could do that at theaftermath.net. There's one part on there that says it's a farewell to Tina. You can say goodbye to the drug. There's another place that you can invite your loved ones to come on and, and submit Uh, their stories, their questions, um, um, their, their letters to their addict, um, loved ones too. Um, and we, we'll read some of those on the air. So, all right, with that being said, we will see you all next time.

Thank you.