EP 1:37: Sober Clubbin’:Beyond Traditional Recovery

Because people make, especially parents I find, or family members, they make the person, their family member's addict, their problem, right? And I have to tell them, I'm like, this has nothing to do with you. Yeah, but they tell me what a terrible person I am. I'm like, yeah, but that's them. That's the addiction talking.

Welcome to the After Meth Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population. And create a repository of resources for current and past addicts, as well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermath. Trigger warning, this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey and you feel like you could be triggered by discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, please do not listen to this podcast. All right, now on with the show. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I'm glad you're here. We are glad you're here, and I am happy to have someone On the podcast today that isn't talking about meth for once. Um, we're gonna— we're branching out a little bit, but I thought it was— this was, um, very appropriate, um, and very going to be very helpful for a segment of you. Because what I'm finding out, and you know, you tend to project yourself a lot onto other people, and I projected— I have projected the fact that alcohol was not a trigger for me to use crystal meth. Onto gay men. And what I'm finding out is more often than not, alcohol is what got them into, um, into meth. Now I will say, um, a glass of wine or a beer, and I have downloaded Grindr subconsciously every fucking time. I have to tell my— you know, when I was drinking, I would say to my best friend, if you see me downloading Grindr, I want you to take my phone away. Every time. Like clockwork. So I would say alcohol is a trigger for me to use crystal meth. Anyway, but if you like this podcast, and I know you do because we are growing, moving, and shaking, and I'm loving it. But if you like this podcast, please remember to rate and review and share the podcast. If you share the podcast on your story or your social media, could you please tag me in it? And I would love to see that happening more often so that we can get this. Into the inbox, the, uh, search algorithm of where it needs to go. But today my guest is Mick Resendez. Mick is a queer sobriety coach, and I'm going to let you introduce yourself, Mick, if you could tell us anything you'd like to say about who you are.

Well, hey, thank you for having me, Dr. Dallas Bragg. I love saying your name. Um, and You know, a congratulations on the growth. Long time fan, first time caller feeling right now. That's what I feel like. You know, that's funny. What do I want to say about myself? Yeah. So I am a queer. I am a queer sobriety coach. Queer Recovery is my handle on all platforms, and I really came into this. I stumbled into sobriety. Right? Well, I'll get into more in my story in a little while, but I always tell people the sobriety was going to happen to me in one of three ways: either by choice, by incarceration, or by death. These were my options. And once I got through the first couple years of sobriety, I was like, you know what? It's not that bad. It's actually kind of great. And how do I share this with people? And so. One of the things that I found that I got going with myself is that I love to go out. I love to dance. I love to party. I love to have fun. I love doing all those things. And I really didn't want to give those up just because I didn't drink. You know what I mean? And, and so that's really the vibe. I mean, if you go to my Instagram, it's very colorful. It's very fun. There's a lot of traveling. There's a lot of going out. There's a lot of dogs. There's a lot of life on there. And part of the way that I did that is Without AA, you know, I did it on my own. I created my own program. Some might say I'm anti-AA. I would embrace that. And I'll get into that more because I don't think AA is bad or wrong, or I think it works great for so many people. It just wasn't for me. And I will say, I think I accidentally did crystal meth once. This is the power of alcohol. I'm pretty sure that's what it was. So I would argue that alcohol is the gateway to a lot of things simply for the fact that it just lowers those inhibitions. I mean, even the, you know, even the, I'm not going to text that ex person, you can be so staunchly against that, you know, before that first drink. And then halfway through that glass of wine, you're like, eh, it wasn't that bad. So, you know, alcohol is the You know, I almost wish that in school they would say like alcohol is a gateway drug, not marijuana, right? Because I think that it is. Because when I, you know, tried weed a few times when I was a teenager, I was like, oh, this is great, let's go to McDonald's. Um, nothing really terrible ever came of it. It was once I started drinking that I was like, let me make all the terrible decisions.

Yeah, you know, that is, you know, that's a really, that's a really good point. And I hear a lot of my clients, a lot of my guys that reach out, they're getting off meth, they're smoking weed as a part of their sobriety journey. Because it never does lead to crystal meth, it leads to chilling out. And, and yes, just like any other substance, if it's something that's negatively affecting your life, and you're doing it to escape your problems, then yes, it can be an issue.

Right, yeah.

But I do know that more often than not, it's not— it isn't a gateway. But alcohol, for sure, for sure. How many times have we— have I woken up, or have we woken up, I'm looking at my phone like, oh shit, did I send that? The nastiest, most embarrassing texts and pictures to people.

Yep, yep.

That I didn't want to. Plus you feel like, you know, complete shit the next day. But anyway, so—

That's the price we pay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So anti-AA is probably controversial, But, um, you know, there's a— if you can see it in all the Facebook groups, there's this uprising of people saying if you're not following AA, you're not sober, or if you don't— if you don't do this, you're not sober. And then you have a lot of people saying I didn't use AA, um, and, and, and based— and also AA traumatized me. Um, and so is that kind of where you're coming from? What was your experience with AA?

Yeah. Yeah, really good. And I'm, my experience really stemmed from 2, 2, 2 experiences with AA. Um, actually I would say 3. My father was an alcoholic. Um, his joke, it's not his original joke, but he used to say, I'm not an alcoholic. Alcoholics go to meetings. Um, and so, um, but the first time I went to AA was after I had gotten a DWI. And so it was court ordered.

Right?

So I went in, I think I was 21, I was 21. And I went in and I don't, and I will preface this to anyone that's in any sort of AA program. I know that my memory of it is not how it happened, but my memory of it is what impacted me, right?

Mm-hmm.

So, and I think that's important because we tend to remember things very differently. And this was also, oh God, almost 20 years ago. So long and the short of it is I went in and basically because I was there, Because it was court ordered, it was like the guy said something to the effect of me. Well, you're not here for the right reasons. And you know, as a 21-year-old who knows everything, I was like, "Well, fuck this." Like, I'm gonna. I'm not gonna do this. You know, and looking back, it's almost like, well, I what that if what if that meeting would have gone differently for me? Now I'm not saying all my addiction would have the gate. You know, the clouds would have parted, and I would have never been a you know. a piece of shit human being, but it may have made me think differently, right?

Hmm.

So when I finally chose to get sober 5 years ago, I went to a very specific meeting. It was for, uh, gay men, and I was, uh, it was in West Hollywood in California. And so I was like, okay, there's like, I'm in— sorry, I'm in this niche group, this is gonna be great. Same thing happened. I walked in and I was like, I'm not sure I'm ready to really get sober, but I think this would be helpful. Well, you shouldn't be here unless you're absolutely ready. And I'm like, okay, like, wow, like, where's the Yelp review on this? Because it was so off-putting. And I remember thinking to myself, you have somebody right here. And gay men, we deal with rejection and all the things under that already. That I was like, wow, this human being is coming into this group and they need help. And rather than— I mean, I'm not asking you to roll out the red carpet to hold my hand, but to basically say, well, maybe you shouldn't be here, or to give that energy off. It was so off-putting. And as I've been creating Career Recovery, as I've been talking to— I've been doing a lot of market research calls, which, by the way, if anyone wants to do one, just DM me at Career Recovery. I'd love to hear from you. That's sort of the thing. The experience that people have with people in AA is, oh well, you haven't found the right meeting. Oh, you must have done it wrong. Oh, it's it's the experiences. It's my fault your program didn't work.

That's right.

It works if you work it. Yeah, it works if you work it. Okay, but I don't know. Like to me, that would be like you know going to the gym, having no idea what any of the machines do, going up to a trainer and say, hey listen, I really want to like. Bulk up, but I'm not sure where to start. Well, you then you need to come. You know, you you're not here for the right reasons or whatever, right? And then you know me being like, well, I don't know why I'm not getting bigger. I'm running with this gym analogy, and then them being like, well, you don't you're not using the gym properly. It's like, well, I don't know how do you use the gym properly, right? So that's really what I've been finding. And and the other thing, as you said, as I've been sharing this, I mean, I've been a little apprehensive to really embrace the anti AA label. But I've been seeing so many people that are like, yeah, that's how I— that was the experience I had. That was the experience. Same with me. And let me be clear, AA works for millions of people. It's a great resource. It's amazing. If you're in AA, NA, any of the A's, and it works for you, that's amazing. I love it. And there can be an— there can be another lane. But right now, as I see it, there's AA rehab kind of lanes. Then there's cold turkey, and that's kind of it. And when you're in— and I just talked to a young man yesterday in one of my market research calls, and he said, you know, you're sober, so that's already a niche group, and you're queer, gay, that's a niche group. So you merge these 2 niche groups and it's an even nichier group. So how do you find people that have that same experience? And that's what I'm here for. I'm here to create that.

Nice. Nice. Yeah. So you are showing up for a group of people that, that need you. Um, because like you said, gay men are already, you know, we're already ashamed for being gay, right? Um, and as much as we like to think that society has progressed, it's still there. And, and I see it, I see it in young men. They, you know, younger men, even though Maybe they can come out earlier. It still doesn't alleviate. And that's why this whole idea of coming out, I think, has been overexaggerated sometimes, is that it doesn't solve anything.

Right.

A lot of times. And so we're already carrying shame and then we're carrying shame of being an addict. And then, you know, I've seen it is that the first time you relapse, you just don't go back to a meeting because the shame. Yeah, the walk of shame and having to say it, you know. So, yep, so good for you for doing that.

Yeah.

Um, okay, thank you. Well, let's talk about a little bit about your story then, as far as, um, you know, you, you said that you had a DUI or DWI.

Yep.

Um, and so what was that stemming from? Where were you at that point?

Yeah, so, um, I'm a talker, so I'm gonna try and make this story a bit more concise. It spans over like 20 years.

Yeah.

But the deep— so I think the inflection point for me in my life was my sister, my older sister overdosed at 29. She was a month before her 30th birthday. At the time, it was just traumatizing because it was the first like unexpected death. I mean, and when I say unexpected, I mean, we expect our grandparents to pass, you know, things like that. But that was really an inflection point for me. So if we fast forward, the DWI was really just a— was kind of the next dot on the timeline. And that was just me going out. I had met a friend. I worked at Starbucks at the time. I met a couple— I met a friend. She loved gay clubs and gay spaces. So she would just kind of take me out. And at the time, there were a lot of places you could get into. That were 18 and up, but you just had to get a wristband to be 21 and up. Well, the doormen at a lot of these places were straight men, and so she was pretty, and so they would— she would be like, oh, I'll go in, you know, or I'll give you like a kiss on the cheek or whatever if you give my friend a wristband. So just start— I mean, to be honest with you, my whole going out journey and drinking everything was very innocent. I mean, it had to be because I couldn't purchase alcohol for myself. It was only done Thursday night was the big night to go out, and ironically Sunday night was the big night to go out for me back then. So drinking was only on these two nights, right? But the DWI happened as a result of this was before Uber. This was like when you had to call a cab. This was really even at the forefront of like text messaging. We didn't really do that that much back then, so you had to just kind of chance it. And so I got the DWI. I got arrested, whole 9 yards. And then interestingly enough, around the same time, it was November, around the same time for the next 3 years, I got arrested for some sort of alcohol-related incident. Yeah, for the next 4 years. But if we fast forward, I would say most of my 20s and into my 30s, I was just somebody that I was just, to me, it was like, oh, I'm gay. We go out, we get shit-faced, and then we go to brunch the next morning. And that's That's just what we do. And then as long as you're up and ready to go to work and you're maybe not bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, but as long as you got some, you know, eye drops, clear the red out and, you know, throw a Tic Tac in your mouth, you're good to go. Right. And that got me by a lot. And in the meantime, shortly after the DWI, my dad died and then my grandmother died. I mean, I just had a lot of people pass away. So When it really started to spiral is I got this kind of God mentality where I was like, well, the good Lord, and I'm not particularly religious, but it's, you know, us addicts will find any sort of justification to like do whatever we do. I was like, God's not going to kill off the entire family. So I could probably like blow through this 8-ball of cocaine in a night by myself. Like, that's fine. And it just started to catch up to me. And I started, you know, one of the things that Really perpetuated the drinking was that I was really good at giving up cocaine because what I would do is I would just delete my dealer's number. But the smart guy here, I would write it down somewhere and hide it in my house so that if and when you know break glass in case of emergency, and it really just came to a head probably in the last the two years before I finally got sober where I had friends. Say to me, we just don't know who who we're getting when you come to our events, right? And this is when friends are getting married, friends are having kids, right? Which I was always like, well then don't have booze at a baby shower. Right. You know what I mean? But it was always somebody else's fault, right? It was always somebody else's fault that I was getting out of hand. And then finally, the the the straw that broke the camel's back is I went to a wedding in Miami. Like one of my best friends. It was all it was. It was set up to be like this amazing trip. Don't remember most of it. I don't remember most of it. And then I do remember the awkward morning we were all leaving and I was like, oh, I must have. I must have done something real terrible. After the fact, I've come to find it wasn't as bad as I made it. But I think that goes into the shame that you're talking about that I'm like, oh, if I if I add shame and make myself feel even more like shit, then whatever they tell me isn't going to be that bad. I mean, it's still not great, but. That was when I was like, I need to do something about this. And that's when I decided, okay, well, let me, let me give it up for like a month or so. Let me get my ducks in a row. And to you, and to what you just said about coming out, what I think is really funny is I actually, I came out as gay as a teenager in high school. But I was, I came out as an alcoholic, like 5 months into my sobriety journey, because I was very That label, the shame that you're talking about. I did not want to be that. You know, to me, it was like, "Did you hear about Meg?" Oh my gosh! She's now like there's there's so much weight on that word that even people that I see across the way and I'm like, "You're an alcohol. Yeah, you're an alcoholic." Like to me, I talk about being an alcoholic like I talk about what hand I write with. I write with my right hand.

That's it.

There's no drama. There's no internal struggle. It's like, this is the hand I write with. And that's it, right? And when I talk about alcoholism and me being an addict, people are like, how do you— I've had friends tell me, they're like, I don't think you're an addict. And I'm like, yeah, but that's because you have something about that word. You have a significance around that word.

I don't.

I don't even— I'm an addict. I am, you know. And that's, that's really where— I mean, I kind of went on a couple different tangents. But that's what this has all been about. It's been about Why was I? Why was I in active addiction for so long? And now that I'm out of it, how do I share that with other people? Because it's that gap between because we all know. I mean, we all know when we have a problem and we're not saying it. So there's a gap between that moment and then when we actually get sober that is so shameful and so isolating and so lonely and scary that that's where I really see the need for. Changing the conversation or adding to the conversation that, you know, if there's cars that have diesel gas and there's cars that have unleaded gas, and if you put unleaded in a diesel truck, the gas isn't bad, the truck isn't bad, they just don't work together. That's it. That's all that's happening. And there's some folks out there that when you add crystal meth, cocaine, well, all those things don't really work. But when you add all these things, they just don't work. And it's not a sustainable lifestyle. And that's me. That's the whole crux of what I'm doing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you for sharing all that. What I'm hearing is, for one thing, these deaths in your family. So you justified it as terms of, well, I couldn't, you know, God wouldn't kill the whole family off.

Right.

Was that really you just not facing the grieving process head on? Or did you face the grieving process or was this a way to numb all that?

So it's funny that you asked that. Looking back now, it was definitely not dealing with the grieving process. My sister dying, I'm not going to get into my whole family tree, but I have my parents divorced when I was little. So I have my dad's side of the family and my sister is my half sister. And then I have my mom's side of the family. Everything happened on my dad's side of the family. And when Angie, that my sister, when she died, she took care of everything. I come from a Hispanic household on my dad's side. So boys don't really do anything. We're just kind of the princes. We don't do anything. We're there to, you know, the women are there to take care of us. And we weren't like that traditional, but My sister was the heir apparent, so she was there to take you know she was there to take care of everything when Daddy died when my grandpa like she was the one that was supposed to take care of everything and when she died I remember very distinctly one of the moments at her funeral like everyone looked right at me to like eulogize her and I remember thinking I'm eighteen I have no idea what's happening here right so now the so I didn't deal with that and in fact later on in life what I really confronted, which was very hard, was I was angry. I was really mad at her for dying and for overdosing because she told me growing up, if I ever catch you doing anything other than weed, I'm done with you. And I'm like, you know, so, and then, and when my dad died, you know, anyone that's had an addict as a parent or an addict in their life, really anyone that's had any addict knows that about the phone call that they're terrified to get. Right? And when, and I always knew, I knew my dad wasn't going to come into my, you know, see my kids or anything like that. But when I finally got that phone call, there was a relief there that I had. And then I felt guilty about being relieved that my dad died. So I think there was unprocessed grief, certainly, but I think there was also unprocessed, you know, it's like I was walking around my entire life, just holding my breath, waiting for The shoe to drop with my dad passing, and when he died, it I released it. But I didn't have any sort of structure to deal with that. And even though I and the other thing on top of that was that I'd been in therapy since I was a little kid. You know, my parents got divorced like I said, so they're like, "Oh, here go to therapy." And I love therapy. If you're in therapy, go for it. If you're scared of therapy, go to it. It's amazing. So to me, I was like, "Oh, I can get myself out of this. I can pull myself out of this. I have the tools. I have everything." So I think there was a little bit of hubris. And there was also a little bit of denial. And there was also a little bit of unresolved grief because I do remember one time. So my name is Mick after Mick Jagger, after the Rolling Stones. And there's this urban legend that I think it's Keith Richards snorted his dad's ashes when his dad died. And I have my dad's ashes. And I remember one night very drunk, talk about a gateway drug. I was like, I'm going to open this urn. I'm going to do it too in honor of my dad. Thank God that thing is like sealed shut because that would have been very awkward. But I remember that very distinctly and I was like, I probably have some unresolved stuff here, but vodka tastes better, so I'm just gonna go that way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, also from your story, what's standing out for me too is your friends giving you feedback of, you know, you're— we don't know who you are or which, which version of you are going to show up. So I would say listeners could use that as a kind of example or, you know, a red flag that I might have alcohol. I might have a problem with alcohol if my friends are giving me that kind of feedback. And how many events do I wake up the next morning in regret of what I may have said or did or not knowing or just assuming? Yeah. I probably did something bad, right?

Yep. Or that, that, that dread of looking at, if you still have your phone, that dread of looking at your phone and just seeing like, you know, the little red bubble with 8, you know, and you're like, oh God, what was, you know? And I think the other tell, I don't know if you've had this experience. I think the other tell too was if you're Blaming everyone around you for your getting out of hand, because like I you know like I made a little joke like you shouldn't have alcohol at a baby shower. Yeah, but I remember part of what drove me to convince myself I didn't have a problem was that you know I'd go out with my friends Saturday night, Sunday morning. Oh my gosh, you drink too much. You you know went off on our you know you went off on this person and blah blah blah. You know, you might want to look at your drinking or whatever. But then by Friday, it's like, hey girl, we're going out for happy hour. You want to join us? And I remember thinking, I'm like, okay, so which is it? Am I a hot mess express? Or am I somebody you want to go to happy hour with? Because you guys keep inviting me out, right?

Hmm.

Except the thing that gets missed there when you're in that denial process is you're accepting the invitation and you're not addressing at all the conversation before because it's uncomfortable. It's shameful. And if there's anybody that listens to your podcast that isn't an addict but has addicts in their life, that's the missing piece is if you come in hot to somebody that is dealing, that you think is dealing with addiction or has a problem, making them feel like shit is not going to solve anything because guess what? We're already making ourselves feel like shit.

Yeah. Yeah.

And adding to that just puts a barrier there, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yes. And the messages I receive— I, I receive more messages from family members than I do addicts at this point, and I receive a lot of messages. Um, but it's, what do I say to my sister? What do I say to my brother? What do I say to my dad? You know, so, you know, what would you say to someone who mentioned— who says, my brother My brother is an alcoholic. He's an addict. What do I do? How do I convince him? That's the question too, is how do I convince him to stop? How do I convince him to get help? What would have been the magic phrase or what would have been most helpful for you from a family or friend member? Family member or friend?

That's a really great question. And the answer I'm going to give is not a satisfactory answer. And I've given it to people. But there's nothing, there's nothing you can do or say.

Yeah.

Right. And when, and I've had this conversation, the second somebody knows I'm either sober or sober coach, it's like, all right, tell me about your son. Tell me about your, like, I, I, I like, let's go have a seat and chat about this. Right. And the thing that I have to really tell them, because people make, especially parents I find, or family members, they make the person, their family member's addict, their problem. Right? And I have to tell them, I'm like, this has nothing to do with you. Yeah, but they tell me what a terrible person I am. I'm like, yeah, but that's them. That's the addiction talking. So the only thing, there's nothing anyone could have said to me. I wasn't ready to listen to it. I wasn't ready to receive it. Where I go with that question is once I got sober, the most powerful, and I almost get moved when I Talk when I share it. The most powerful moment in my early in that first hundred days of my sobriety was I was in a I was in a personal growth course, and I had made a friend in there, and I had only told like a handful of people in this course that I was in it, and we met every Friday. And so one day I went to go share in front of the whole room, and it was a leadership course now that I'm thinking about it, and. Just out of nowhere, she just yells, how many days sober are you? And I think it was like 19 days. That is what made a difference, right? That, and when I talked to my mom, ironically, when I was about a year or 2 sober, it was during COVID She's like, well, is there anything I could have done? And I was like, yeah, you just never asked. You never asked how sobriety was going. You never asked me how I was feeling. How's, you know, how am I dealing with things? And her answer was very honest. She goes, well, I didn't want you to think I didn't think you couldn't do it. And I didn't want that to be the thing that had you relapse. And I said, Mom, I'm an alcoholic. It really doesn't take any— I go, regard asking or not asking, either one has equal shot of making me relapse. So yeah, if your chances are 50/50, just go. It always— it never hurts to ask, right? And so that's the thing. But I go back to what I said a moment ago. You cannot bring your— I mean, you can, but you cannot bring your anger and frustration with someone who's dealing with addiction into that conversation. Because when you go in on the attack, it's just not starting off on the right foot. Now, you don't have to coddle them. You don't have to sit there and say, oh, you know, here's a needle, shoot up, whatever. Like, but if you come in and say, listen, What's going on? What are you— you know, having it be just a conversation versus an interrogation is the only thing that I could say would make some sort of a difference. Because at least at that point, the addict will say— can't say, oh, well, he came in and attacked me and he called me a drug addict and blah, blah, blah, versus like, you can't really say much about something if someone comes in with a— from a place of concern. Hmm.

Right, right. Yes. And I would also advise family members to check, to look inward and make sure you're not approaching it from a place of your guilt. Like, what have I done to cause this person to be an addict?

Yep.

What did I do wrong as a parent or a sister? You know, and that can be projected as anger.

Yep.

Onto the addict. I'm speaking to me right now with my kids. But yeah, but that a lot of times will inhibit the process of rebuilding a relationship when that family member hasn't dealt with their own shame and guilt around it.

Right. I've actually had a couple conversations with my mom where she's like, well, because my mom was worried about me drinking. I remember I have a very clear memory of like when I was about to turn 13 and I was like, Mom, I don't even smoke weed. Like, why are you? I mean, if you're listening to this, Mom, you were right. But but that was a big part of what we had to kind of confront is I was a bad mom. I'm like, you were not a bad mom. Like, if I had gotten cancer or something, would you say, oh my gosh, what did I do? Was I a bad mom? Like, no. And even though I don't, I I don't like interacting with addiction as a as a disease, even though it is. I think that having that kind of similar— there are people that are prone to addiction, right? They're just genetically prone to it. But it's not a backdoor to allow for the behavior. But I always still go to like, if you have a— like, you can't blame your genes. If you want to ask yourself, what did I do as a mother? I don't know, you have to go get it ancestry.com and find the person that put this in the gene pool. I guess that's the only thing you can really find. But like you said, there's that projection. And so now you've got 2 people, like 2 opposite sides of the magnet just pushing against each other and nothing's getting solved.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's probably a benefit, I hope, of Al-Anon. I don't have a lot of experience with Al-Anon for the families, but I'm hoping that they They help people really approach the addict in a different way and not take it personally.

Yeah. Which is hard. I mean, you're dealing with somebody that you love and that you care about. And, you know, when my dad— I didn't see my dad for the last probably 18 months to 2 years of his life because once I got to be an adult, I had the choice to be around it. And one of the things we talked about a moment ago, you know, what do I think was not being dealt with in my addiction? You know, back then I used to think, well, my dad chose the bottle over me, especially after my sister died. Like, I was like, you would think that a parent loses a child and they just, they're going to turn it all around and they're going to be the best dad that they can be for their living child.

Yeah.

But addiction doesn't. And so I had to get, and people get, people think this is funny when I say this. I was not a factor at all in the decision-making with my dad. It wasn't vodka or Mick. Mick wasn't in there. And it's not like, oh, he didn't care about me or I did. The addiction was driving the train and Mick wasn't even in the conversation. So it wasn't like I was pushed aside. It was that I wasn't even Part of that process making, and my dad was trying to escape not only his shit from his past, but the loss of a child, which I can't even imagine what that's like. But if it's anything like losing a sibling, I can get probably like five to one percent of what that's like. And so I gave you know I I one thing I regret just going on all sorts of tangents here. One thing that I not regret, but one thing that I. Sort of wishes that I had been able to be sober with my dad sober and had a conversation with him. That's one thing I just would have loved to have the opportunity to. Now, a lot of things that have had to happen for that, but I really understand. I've really started to get a new understanding of my dad as I've gone through my sober journey and just all the things that you know he dealt with and didn't deal with, and the tools that I have that he didn't. And I think he'd be really proud of me actually with what I'm doing. Actually, that's why my hair is long because my dad. Grew his hair out all the time, and so I do it in honor of him.

Well, it looks nice. It looks nice.

Thank you.

Have you ever have you ever tried writing a letter to him?

I think I have, but I don't remember. I've done a lot. I have. I actually know I have because I have a memory. I have written him a letter, and actually have it somewhere. But I have written him a letter, but I not since I've been sober. That's actually probably why I don't remember. So I'm gonna add that to my little list of things to do here.

Um, the other part of that too, um, everything you said, just to add on, is that those looking from the outside, the normies, will say, you know, they would— there were people who said about me, how can you keep doing meth? You— your kids have been taken away from you.

Mm-hmm.

How could you possibly do— keep, keep using meth? And you're trying to— you're trying to overlay some reasoning On someone who's not using logic.

Yeah.

If you're addicted to a substance, more often than not, you're not in a logical, critical thinking place.

Yeah.

You have to remember that.

You're on the hunt.

That's right. You're on the hunt.

On the hunt. You're on the hunt. And, and that's, and that's, I mean, to, to be honest with you, that's part of what queer recovery is all about is that we talk very light and we don't, we don't make light of it, but we talk very lightly about it. I mean, I was talking on the— I was doing a market research call yesterday or day before yesterday. And, you know, I always tell people, I'm like, you know, if addicts put half the energy they had to be an active addict into, I don't know, fixing the roads and the bridges of the country, this— I mean, we would be— flying cars would be a thing already.

Yeah.

Because we are very crafty people. We are very good at Hiding stuff, but you know, like, but we're just very creative folks, and it's funny to me that we put all our energy in that and not in the other things. But like you said, there, there, I think that's very powerful what you just said, because I don't think people realize that is that there's no logic in addiction. I mean, if you really think about it, I'm buying a substance from somebody I don't. Maybe you know, maybe you know, maybe you don't. You don't know where it's come from. You don't know where it's come. You don't know who had it before that. You don't even know what's in it, right? And you're just gonna shoot it up in your body.

Yeah, yeah, right.

For that like quick fix, and you're gonna spend all you know. You're gonna say, "Well, I have rent due, but I gotta get this other." You know what I mean? So logic is just not a factor.

No.

So yeah, thank you for sharing that too.

Yeah. Yeah, of course. So you mentioned queer recovery.

Yep.

Can you tell us a little bit about your philosophy, your process? What would I expect if I came to you for coaching?

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm doing— I'm, I'm getting ready to launch a couple different things. I just really got started about 5 months ago, content creating, everything. So part of these market research calls that I'm talked about a few times. So that's the quickest way to just get a one-on-one conversation with me. And the way that works is I'm going to spend about 45 minutes talking to you about asking questions about what you want to see in the space, in the, in the queer space, in the recovery space. And in exchange for that, I'm going to do a— I'll give you 45 minutes of one-on-one coaching around recovery. So there's no sales in any of that. That's just me having a conversation right now. 2 of the things that I'm introducing coming in the fall is I'm going to be creating a one-on-one group, right? I'm sorry, uh, uh, group coaching call weekly. And this is going to be— I don't think it's funny, people are always like, why wouldn't they just go to AA? But the difference is these are all going to be queer sober people. And the, the commonality that I've found in all my market research calls is that folks just want a space where that, that's our baseline. Yes, we're all queer on some level, And we're all sober, and there's that commonality that's there. So we can just talk about all the other stuff without having to explain everything else. Or if we want to share about our you know hot mess express days, we don't have to go through the whole backstory. So we're going to create this group as as a cornerstone of the broader community, and then from there I'm going to offer one-on-one coaching, and that's going to be where I do a four to six month program depending on. what your need is, where we look at where are your triggers? What are spaces that you want to be able to go to? So for example, for me, I wanted to still be able to go out to clubs and bars and things like that.

Mm-hmm.

So what are the steps that we can put in place so that you can go to those spaces? You can be in those spaces, or you can be complete not going to those spaces and not have that FOMO. So we really work on how do you, how do you work sobriety into your life that you wanna live? Free from all the significance and stories that you tell yourself. And so, like I said, I'm just getting started. So some of this is being kind of the plane is being built as we fly, and that's actually why I'm actually very excited to be on your podcast. So that if folks hear this, this is going to be probably the most tailored programs I'm going to do with this company because you're going to get in on the ground level. But the group program, and then eventually I'm going to be doing. Retreats. That's what I'm very excited about. We're going to do sober retreats, which really just means we're going to get a house somewhere like Palm Springs or whatever, and there's just not going to be booze. We're going to have guest speakers. We're going to have, you know, hikes, fitness days, things like that. But I'm really about creating this community, and that's that's what career recovery is going to be is a community for people from the whole LGBTQIA spectrum and the whole sobriety spectrum. You know, you mentioned early on that there are folks that are in recovery from meth that smoke marijuana. Well, I know a ton of programs are like, well, you shouldn't be on— I mean, I know programs that you shouldn't even be on an antidepressant, right? So, so where do those folks go? Come on over to Queer Recovery because there's no hard and fast rule, right? And this is also for the sober curious. This is also for people that are like, hey, listen, I'd love to be in a group where I'm not ready to go fully sober, but I would love to be with people that are also sober. And this is going to be great too for people to connect in different regions and have just like a central hub. So that's, that's, that's what's being created right now. It's a little bit all over the place. But the quickest way for your listeners to get engaged at all is just to go to my Instagram page. And there's a link to book a what I call a getting to know you call. So, and then we can talk more about how I can best serve you.

Yeah, lovely, lovely. And I'll put the link, of course, in the show notes so we can—

Yeah, I'd love that.

Get on a call. I mean, everybody likes to give market research, and what a great way for you to collect data.

No, it's— I mean, it's— I hate calling it market research because it sounds sterile, but that's what I mean. That's, that's where I really got The thread of people are like, I just want a space. That's my favorite. This is my favorite. I've had every single call but one. I just want a queer sober space that's not a coffee shop. Can we do something that's not a coffee shop? Yeah. I'm like, yes, I totally get it. I'm done hanging out at Starbucks. Let's go somewhere else.

Yeah.

So, so that's, that's what this is. That's what's been really impactful. And plus I know that my experience is my experience. So I want to broaden it to all folks. You know, I know not everybody was a wee-ho gay running around, you know, for 15 years. Everyone has their own experience. So how do I speak to more people more broadly? And that's the more people I get to talk to, the more I can speak to that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And speaking of non-coffeehouses, I saw you bebopping, if that's a word, at a club on your Instagram. So Tell me about that. How do you? How do you go to a club and dance with you know? Of course, I'm sure I'm assuming you had whatever ginger ale, water, Sprite, and not be tempted. What advice would you give? What advice would you give us if we want to go out clubbing without being triggered to drink?

Yeah, absolutely. So this is actually going to get into a little bit of my coaching. Methodology here.

Okay, good.

And it's— and the cornerstone of my coaching is communication. I mean, just clear communication. So communication and boundaries. So that night, for example, well, first of all, I go out early. I think we were out— I think we were out at like 9:30 that night, right? So the clubs are not popping yet. There's still a lot— there's a lot of clubs in LA that are— I mean, I know this is an LA exclusive, but they're kind of restaurants until a certain point, and then they clear the tables, and then it becomes more of a club. So that's the first thing, is we just go out early. First of all, I have no business being out past 11 anymore. What if nothing good is going to happen?

Yeah.

But when I talk about communication, you got to be right there with the person that's going with you. So you either need to have someone that's be like, girl, uh, if they're not sober, being like, hey, I want to go out, but would you be okay with being sober with me tonight? And just work that out at the beginning. Right now, if they want to drink, I mean, we all kind of know the friends that are like, have a drink here, have a drink and a drink, and then that's it. But you don't want to go out with somebody who's on a mission to get obliterated at all. Okay. And then the way and so then for me, I just went out and I had that person that was with me. And I said, you know, he said, I'm great. I'm not drinking. Also, we were obviously filming something. So we were there kind of for that. But when I go out with friends, you know, I always tell them, I'm like, if you're— if we're going out, perfect example, had friends come out and visit me in Palm Springs. We went to a drag show. I told them before we went, I said, listen, knock yourself out, have your wine, have a cocktail, enjoy. I want you to enjoy. I'm the person— I'll be the designated driver, which is just been such a plus for so many people. Um, but if you guys want to get— if you get there and you're like vibing and you're like, let's do shots and let's do this, I go, that's when I'm gonna say have a good night and call me when you're ready to come home and I'll come get you.

Okay.

So you've got to just be in, in communication. And that's where people get uncomfortable is how do— I mean, not just in sobriety, but how do I express my need to support me? And that's what a big part of my coaching is, is I literally do mocks with people, mock conversations where I'm like, okay, I'm going to be the person that you're scared to set a boundary with. Go. And they just confront whatever's right there, that knot in their stomach or whatever. So that's really the big thing is setting up that boundary. I go out early and I give myself, you know, I get to get 2 Red Bulls. That usually gets me kind of doo doo doo doo doo. And then, oh, and then the other thing too, the person that I'm with is I'm like, hey, if I, I need to know that if I say we need to leave, that you're right there with me, not like, oh, but the song's so good, nothing like that. Like, you've got to set that person up to be your wingman, wing person. So, or a person. So if you're going out in a group, you just got to find that one person that's willing to do that. And if they're not, if you can't, Then I mean, unless you're like me and five years into this and like coaching people, then don't go right and just set that boundary because the FOMO that you may feel is ten times less than being triggered at a club. So I don't send my soldiers out into battle unless they're ready, and we have steps where we start where we do little by little by little. So one of my one of my test clients is I had him just go have lunch at a restaurant bar in the middle of the day, I think with like a Cheesecake Factory or something. And he was texting me the whole time. He's like, he's like, what? I was like, what are you experiencing? He's like, nothing really. And then I guess somebody sat down next to him and ordered some sort of cocktail. And he's like, oh, I can smell it. It smells really good. I was like, okay, do you want one? And he's like, I do, but I only want one because she wants— she has one, but not because I particularly want one. So a lot of my coaching is Communicating, confronting what's there, kind of getting out and saying what's not said. And that's how that night where I was bebopping, great word, that's how that got going is that I, I just got in communication with the person I was with.

Hmm. So this is, I mean, it does sound like very much an accountability partner role that you're playing. Yep. It's almost, it reminds me of exposure therapy. Like if you're scared of spiders, put a spider on your hand or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah.

You're, you're really overriding your subconscious here. It sounds like instead of totally just avoiding the situation.

Yep. And that's, I mean, I had a friend come to me about a year ago. This is how this even got started is I was like, all right, well, let's, I was like, let's go to one of these clubs. During the day. Let's just go be in the same space during the day and we'll have lunch, right? And because he was really worried about being triggered. And so we just went, I said, it's the same place. I go, it's the same place. It's the same place. So, and that, and just like you said, it is like exposure therapy, but we talk through what's happening. And that I think is what's missed. And that's why going back to the kind of anti, the anti-AA vibe is that I'm gonna, I'm gonna put you, if it's safe, like now I'm not gonna, if there's somebody that's like relapsed, you know, 5 times in the last like 2 weeks, that's somebody that I don't know that I can work with until they've got a month or a couple months, maybe a year under their belt. But my, my job is to have you have it from within yourself so that when you have a trigger come up, you can really, it's like, They always say if you ever have a ghost in your, if you have a ghost in your house, you're supposed to acknowledge its presence and then it leaves. So you want to do that with yourself. You want to acknowledge, okay, I'm a little uncomfortable. Okay, great. Then leave.

That's it.

That's just, just go outside, take a breath, whatever you need. You know, one of the, one of the techniques I have that is part of my one-on-one coaching is what I call bookending. It's not my term, but, uh, so basically you would call me, you're like, hey, I'm going to go into this club for my friend's birthday. Yeah. This is what I'm feeling. Great. If you need to like text me in the middle, fine, go ahead. And then on your way home, okay, let's debrief. How did it go? What did you feel? Where did you get triggered? Where'd you get uncomfortable? Are you leaving early?

Was it great?

How was it great? You know, what, what worked? What didn't work? And that's, that's the big hurdle because there's no, there's no shame in my game, right? There's no, you shouldn't be at a club, you shouldn't be doing this. And that's what's been really empowering for the couple of clients that I've already worked with.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love it. And it goes to show that, you know, you hear this, stay away from the people, places, and things, right? There's a kind of an AA cliché, one of the, one of the many.

Yep.

But it goes to show that there's just— you just cannot paint a broad stroke for each person.

Correct.

Right. That is the context And the individuality of it. So you can go around the same people, places, and things sometimes based on your situation and based on the way you approach it.

Yep. And to that, I mean, I think that's super impactful and that's exactly like put that on a button because that's exactly what I'm here to say because, you know, by that logic, one of my really good friends who I met— gay guy who I met going out. That's how we met. We met clubbing, we met drinking, we met doing drugs in the bathroom, right? That was our whole time together. By a lot of some program standards, I should not have that person in my life because he's still running around clubbing, having a good time. I mean, he's toned it down as he's gotten older, but he was one of the first people that was like super supportive of me when I got sober. Like, he was like, what do you need? What do I need to do? How do I need to fix things and change. And I was like, listen, if you just have a glass of wine or two around me, that's fine. Like I said before, but once you're ready to go get hammered, just know that I'm not gonna go. And it has nothing to do with you. That's the other big thing is that has nothing— you got to kind of like hold hand— kid glove people sometimes because you gotta be like, it's not you. Like, go, I want you to go have fun. I just shouldn't be around that. Right?

Yeah. Yeah.

And that's, and that's the other part of it. You know, so, um, but it's been really impactful and powerful and it's really altered the behaviors of people around me so that they're more aware of just their own drinking and everything. So it kind of, it kind of is the butterfly effect I've been finding.

Yeah. You have to train people, right?

Yep.

I mean, just like the same as like you have a friend that you know is not going to text back for 24 hours or more, right?

Yep.

Right. They've trained you to understand that I'm not going to expect a reply.

Right.

But kind of the same thing goes with this, it sounds like, um, is just setting a new precedent. And, you know, and, um, yeah, there was another part of that too that I was going to reply to, going to comment on.

Hmm.

I lost it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, the practicing. So you, you practice, you role-play with people. I think, um, it might help too if you— if someone can just practice the conversation beforehand, right? Maybe, maybe with another friend or with the mirror or writing it out, you know, practice actually saying it, the words, so that the first time you, you say it, it's not like jumping off a cliff. It's kind of more comfortable when it comes out. Because you've practiced it. Is that right?

Yeah, absolutely. So a lot of times when we say something over and over in our head, it's our internal, it's our internal monologue, right? Which is very different than how we actually talk. So sometimes when you, and I'm, if you, if I had cameras around my house, you'd think a crazy person lives here because I talk to myself all day long, but I will say things out loud. Before I even say something to another person, because I want to know, oh, okay, this is the part where I'm going to get uncomfortable. This is the part where I'm a little uneasy. This is— or I don't like how that's sounding now that I'm saying it. So it's like, it's just, it's, it's a dress rehearsal, right? And it does make a huge difference. I mean, I invite anybody who, within the sound of my voice, that has something that they need to say to somebody. If they don't, just, just try it. This is a free tip from me to you. Just say it out loud. You know, when you're driving over to their house or wherever, before you say it, and just see what's there for you and see if it impacts how you talk to that person, because it will, even in some small level.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. Well, Mick, what have I not asked you today? What is something that you wish I would have covered or something that you would want to be in this podcast that we didn't go over?

I don't know. I think the question that just kind of comes to mind, although I think you did ask me in some kind of way, is, you know, why, why me? Like, why Mick? You know, who, who, who said I'm the one, right? And the per— the— I said I'm the one. Someone had to. Now, am I the only queer sobriety coach? Am I? Obviously not. But I'm the one that's going to really embrace this anti-AA thing. And again, I go back to it's not against AA. And in fact, I would love to work with people that are in AA as, you know, a complement. But I saw a need and really it of pure laziness when I was Googling like Non-AA, there was like nothing. Like the second I put not AA gay, there was like nothing. And you had to scroll through a lot of Google pages. And so I was like, all right, I'm going to do this. And, you know, and I, I have a lot of connections with people that once this really gets going are going to just help me spread it. And so if I have people that are willing to do that, then I need to get my ass up and work, as Kim Kardashian says. And the last thing I'll say about it is, and I touched on this before, there is so— the shame and the agony and the pain that we addicts put ourselves through for whatever reason in an effort to get better is so unneeded and unnecessary, and that we put ourselves through it And some programs like AA put that on other people is so, if we just eliminated that, I guarantee you the increase of successfully sober people. One more anecdote. I was in, I was in a, I was in a recovery meeting. Long and the short of it is this guy was like, you know, I had 78 days and I relapsed and now I have 2. And I just interrupted and I was like, good for you. And he was like, what? I was like, you have 2 days. I was like, that's incredible. He's like, yeah, but I had 78. I go, you sure did. I go, but now you have 2. And his, I mean, he had never been talked to that way before. I was like, that's amazing. And tomorrow you're gonna have 3. I go, you know what's cool is you made it to 78. So, you know, you can get there. I go, before those 78, you didn't know you could do it, but now you know you can do it.

That's right. That's right.

And he's right. I don't know how he got my number, but he texted me like a year later and he's like, he's like, I'm on day 1,250. And I was like, who the fuck is this? And he's like, it's so-and-so from that meet. And I was like, oh my God. And that right there, I was like, that's what we need to bring to this.

Yep.

We need to bring that. You listen, you might relapse. It might happen. People always ask me, oh, so you're never gonna drink again? I'm like, I hope not. I go, but listen, I might grab the wrong drink one day. Does that count? No, right? I don't know, but I sure as shit am gonna really try to not drink. And that's how we need to do it. It's not scary. It's not— I mean, it is scary, but it's not— it's a— it's not unsurmountable. And that's what I'm here to do. That's why I'm the one.

That's right. Thank you for that. And I would say he still has 78 days.

Yeah, that's what I—

I can't— I, I just— it just hurts my heart when I see this. Yeah, I, I had a year, now I'm on day 3. No, you still have a year.

You put the—

you put the fucking work in. Yeah, you did it for a year. You still have a year.

Yeah, exactly. I didn't even think about that.

But it's, it's this parallel. I'm gonna get on my soapbox for a minute. It's this parallel with Christianity of I sin And now everything I've done up until now doesn't matter because I sinned and I have to start over. I have to rededicate my life. I have to go get forgiveness. I, I'm starting over.

Yep.

It's the same thing. And relapse is seen as a sin. It's like a back— in the Christian church they call it, oh, he backslided.

Yep. Oh, that's where that comes from.

He's backsliding. He relapsed. It's the same fucking thing. It's just the meaning you place to it, like you said earlier. Relapse in and of itself is a neutral circumstance. We decide the meaning to put on it, right? When we are told a meaning to put on it by a set of people and philosophies, then that disempowers us in our recovery.

Which is so crazy because the last thing you want to do is disempower somebody that has like shitty coping skills to begin with.

Right.

You know what I mean? So, yes.

Go ahead. Yes. And you disempower them so they keep coming back because they think they have to.

Yep. There's that mic drop moment. Yep. And that's, and that's, and that's what I'm here to do. I mean, we didn't even get on the whole spirituality aspect of, we can save that for another podcast, but that's, that's, that's, it's just so Like, I love when I talk about addiction and my sobriety, and I just see people look like— my favorite thing now is people say, you don't seem like, you don't seem like a sober person. And I'm like, what does a sober person mean? What does that mean? And I finally got an answer. Someone's like, you just like—

there's—

I was at a, I was at a wedding. They're like, well, there's like booze right here. We were sitting right next to the bar. They're like, there's a bar right here. And I was like, uh-huh. It's weird that you can be around that. I go, is it?

Is it really?

Is it weird? Is that weird? But what I get is that it's not my personality and I'm not putting it on everybody else. It's my, it's my thing. I'm dealing with it. And the second I tell them, they're like, that's amazing. That's incredible. Is it okay that I have this wine? I'm like, absolutely, totally fine. Don't treat me like I'm weird. But like, but, but, but, but if I act like it's weird, if I make it significant, then they're going to make it significant. And that's just, it's a lot of work. That's right.

It is. It is unnecessary work.

Exactly.

Well, Mick, I have really enjoyed this. I really enjoyed you. And I'm excited for you to move to my neck of the woods. You said what, next year, November? July?

January.

January, you're moving to North Carolina.

I'm moving to Raleigh, North Carolina. We're going to bring— and I'm very, I mean, I'm just very excited. I've never lived not on the West Coast. So you and I—

Get ready.

You know what? When this gets nice and big, we'll do a live podcast with an audience. Okay.

Right.

That'd be great. But thank you so much for having me. I really enjoy what you're doing and I've loved watching you grow and hit all these milestones on social media. So just to be part of your journey is just such an honor. So thank you for letting me share myself today.

Thank you very much. Appreciate it. And for all of you, if you want to get involved, you can comment. And, and like I said, comment, rate. You can comment on Spotify, but you can also comment on YouTube. So if you have questions for Mick, you can look him up, of course, or you can comment on the video, uh, and, and we'll get the questions answered. Or, um, you know, if you have some— if you want to@ him at what he said about AA, do that. He's the non— he's the non-AA gay is what we labeled him, uh, before. Anti-AA gay. Anti-AA gay. Okay, sorry.

No, no, that's fine. We workshopped it here, so you heard it here first, guys.

Right. Uh, we do have a Facebook group. It's called The Aftermath if you want to get in there. We have questions and discussions and dialogue that we do each day. Um, and of course there now, I'm glad to see people are coming forward with help, you know, for a request for help. And so it's a support group as well, right on Facebook. People still do use Facebook, guys. Um, And we do have a website, aftermeth.net. You can go on there and submit your questions as well. You could submit your stories. Some people out there are carrying a lot of guilt for what you did as a meth addict, and you just need to get it off your chest anonymously. And you could just write in there. I've got some interesting ones so far. None that surprised me yet. So you haven't surprised me yet. So keep trying. But you can submit that there too. Um, other than that, if you have a— oh, by the way, if you're still listening to this, um, if there are, um, topics you want us to discuss, if there are guests you'd like us to have on, please submit that to me. I am on every social media platform you can think of, Dr. Dallas Bragg. So submit that to me and we'll get it on the podcast. All right, see you next week.

Thank you.