EP 1:38: Walking the Narrow Gate: A Gay Christian's Recovery Story

Hey y'all, in this week's podcast, I interview Tim, a gay former crystal meth addict who has created his own recovery route through a relationship with Jesus Christ. This topic may be a bit triggering for some of you because I'm well aware that there is a ton of religious trauma out there, yours truly included. But I am committed to remaining open to all perspectives when it comes to crystal meth recovery. I want to feature as many viewpoints as I can in an effort to empower you to do the same. Listen, we expand ourselves psychologically and spiritually when we are able to hold our own view while considering the views of others simultaneously. Recovery is not about subscribing to one route that somebody else created and deciding it is the only way or else, because that, my friends, is as close to religious trauma as you'll get. Which is so ironic to me that the people out there telling you that you have to do recovery this way are the same ones who have a big problem with Christianity. They are being just like the group they are against. So I encourage you to take what resonates and leave the rest. Don't listen to this podcast or any podcast for ways it agrees with your opinion, but listen to expand your worldview. And please know that recovery is yours to create. This is your chance to set the precedent for the rest of your life by stepping into your power and making your own rules that align with your own truth. Not many get a clean slate like this. As addicts, we are given a special opportunity. Don't fuck it up. Join the After Meth community on Facebook. We have a Facebook page called The After Meth. Also, there is a supplementary study guide that goes with every podcast. The link will be in the show notes. Enjoy. Have you had run-ins with Christians that You know, that aren't really happy with you two showing up at church together?

Yeah, actually, we have. We were going to this one church down the road, and it was one of the biggest churches in the area.

Welcome to the Aftermath Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create a repository of resources for current and past addict As well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermath. Trigger warning: this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey and you feel like you could be triggered, By discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, please do not listen to this podcast. All right, now on with the show. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg. Today I have a new friend of mine, uh, Tim, and we are, we are a result of some really strong networking that I've been enjoying lately, um, as I meet One person, it dominoes into more people. And I just love the way that this web of former meth addicts is, is forming all around the globe, all around the globe. We're all out there and we have a message. We have something to say. And I love today's episode because it's a unique message and I'm looking forward to getting it out there. Um, if you are enjoying the podcast, and I know that you are because our numbers continue to rise, which I'm very happy with, um, please like, please review, preferably 5-star review, and share. Also, if you've already liked and reviewed, could you also share the podcast on your social media channels? I would really appreciate that. And if you do, tag me in it. Um, and maybe we'll start doing some type of prize or raffle. I don't know, but start doing it. I appreciate you doing that because we want to get the word out. We want this podcast to reach the right demographic. And as I've mentioned before, After Meth is not an actual word, so the SEO does not pick it up. So I didn't know that. I didn't realize that before I picked the name, but it's okay. If you do tell somebody about the podcast, make sure that you remind them that the phone or computer will autocorrect to aftermath and the podcast will not show up. All right, said everything I was supposed to say. I'm going to turn it over to you, Tim, if you could introduce yourself to us.

Hello, my name is Tim. Hi everybody, I'm 39. I am a grateful sober person. I'm sober since November 19th, 2021 from meth.

Well, you're in the right place. Congratulations on your sober time.

Thank you.

So as we, as we have guests on here, and we hear stories, all of our stories are unique. However, a lot of them are so similar, you know, as far as once we get into Meth. It's funny because no matter where you— you know, I, I was talking to some— a guy from Israel, and I was that interested to know kind of what the scene was like there, and it's the same. I mean, it's the same shit, you know, different place. And so that being said, I just wanted to ask, to dive into your story and ask you Where do you think your meth addiction began? Thinking back over your life, where do you think it started?

I mean, probably, I mean, I was prescribed Adderall for quite a long time, so I feel like that's why it really took hold. Also, I have addiction in my family. And yeah, I mean, just a lot of stuff in adolescence, a lot of unregulated, you know, emotions and things like that. I was put on a lot of different types of medications. And then, 18, I started drinking and discovered that, binge drinking big time. And then, I kind of just innocently stumbled into this just like everybody. And, I was like, I really have— this is my secret. This is a really powerful drug I found and I'm just going to kind of use it. You know, really discreetly and cautiously, right? And, uh, yeah, it kind of just took hold there. Yeah, yeah.

It's funny that most of us, as far as similarities, similarities go, um, a lot of us go into this thinking we can do it recreationally, you know? And I think the biggest question I get is Is it possible to just do this on the weekends? And to that I say, go ahead and try. But that doesn't last long, right?

No. Well, that's when it started kind of going into, you know, the weekday. That's kind of when, you know, and then when you started using other things to administer it, that's when it's kind of like, oh, maybe this is a bigger problem.

So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So once you got into it and started leaking into your life, what was, what was your life like?

Um, it was chaotic and I loved it. I really loved, you know, just like the just messiness. I really, I love the highs and the lows and like, you know, I hated the lows, but like, I love the highs so much. And it was really fragmented. I, you know, did some really impulsive things, including a cross-country move that I probably never would have done if I wouldn't have been using just clouded judgment and all sorts of things like that. Yeah.

Yeah. It's interesting that you say that because a lot of us get it. They, we find this new world, you know, it's an underground world. It's a world that's out there that no one knows about right before everybody's eyes. It's hiding in plain sight, this myth, Right. And it's like you step into another dimension and, you know, the chaos, the, the adventures, like you're saying. And to me, it feels like many of us get to allow our alter ego to come out and play, and we don't have to pretend anymore. Does that sound familiar to you?

Yeah, 100%. And my ego, you know, at the time I had like this really cool job and, um, you know, it was— I was doing really well for myself for the first time. And, you know, that's really fostered the addiction and it grew along with that. And my ego is so huge. And, you know, I really had to attack it, you know, when I became sober. So I had to learn a lot of stuff.

Yeah, yeah. So when you— was there a pattern of your relapses? Um, and when I say sometimes when we decide, okay, we're going to quit, we're going to try to get sober, right? Um, was there that decision and then a pattern of relapses? And I'm saying this so that people out there who are relapsing can maybe relate. Were there like periods of time, like 2 weeks, 3 months? How was that? How did that look for you?

So I entered into an outpatient rehab program in 2017, and, you know, I mentioned before I didn't get sober until 2020. So, there are a lot of relapses in between there.

Got it.

Typically, my relapses would occur every 30 to 60 days and I couldn't get past the 30-day mark. Typically, I would go back out. And yeah, it was just the most frustrating thing. We all beat ourselves up and we just carry that guilt and that shame and everything. But yeah, that's typically I mean, that's how powerful this drug is that you know it you can do like it just keeps calling your name. Like even after like thirty days, you would think that all right, you know things are going to start like looking up now, but like it just I kept going back down. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

Very common, very common. So if you're listening, I want you to know that you're not alone in this. That this is this drug. It's proven scientifically through research, proven that this drug will cause more relapses before you get sober than any other drug out there. There's something about it, and especially for gay men when it's fused with sex.

Correct.

Because sex, sex is such a powerful part of our life. And, and, you know, as I, I sent a newsletter out last week, men suppose, you know, studies show men think about sex 19 times a day. Well, that's 19 triggers a day, right? If you think about meth and sex being fused together, right?

Yeah, that's probably what, you know, caused me to relapse is because in that 30-day span, I had absolutely no desire. And so it would bubble up. And then, you know, like towards the end, I'm like, I just got to go out and, you know, and do it because, you know, I don't— by the grace of God, I was able to, like, get past all of that.

So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so 17, you started your, your journey. Yeah, say about 20— yeah, um, about 2021, you, you were— you just, you know, you quit. So what do you think was a final— was there a final straw to that, or what was, what was the, the, the impact that on you that made you stop using?

Honestly, like I remember finding my, like, identifying with a higher power in rehab. And, you know, we had to do a lot of work in rehab, a lot of group therapy and this and that. And, like, I was really emotional about that. And I always think back, like, you know, just lost my composure, like, in the group and was just like, wow, like, this is so foreign to me because, you know, it was always just me, me, me, like, you know, and— So, that was really kind of what really started the whole process, I think. And then, later on, it still wasn't enough though. Later on, just kept relapsing, relapsing. And then, I would go to NA meetings and it still didn't do it. I would still keep using and I was like, what is going on? And, just kind of kept stumbling into church over and over again, still relapsing, but then dragging my butt back to church. Yeah, and it kind of just something started to stick with just regular attendance with church. Okay.

Okay. Okay. And so your regular attendance in church, and what kind of church was it?

It was just a Christian, like, non, you know, non-denominational church with the bands, you know, the stage and this and that. So the lights and the, you know, Guitar.

So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's my favorite actually.

It's like a free concert.

Yeah, yeah, exactly right, exactly right. Um, okay, so then you, you started to— it sounds like you started to really connect with a higher power, um, which is a, a big sticking point for a lot of men, gay men especially, because Religious trauma comes along with many of us, um, and I'm finding no matter what age, you know, because you would— I, in my mind, I would think, oh, these younger kids, they have it so good, you know, they can come out whenever they want, um, they don't have this or that, but they have, they have this, they carry the same trauma that, that we do in different ways.

So, right.

Um, so what was early recovery Like, for you, if you could describe it?

I'm just trying to figure out who I was, like, as a person on a deeper level, and just being okay with who I was. And, and just, I don't know, like, just moments, like, I don't know, just being okay with who I was deep down and not on, on the surface level. You know, I just, like I said, it was just it during in rehab when they when I had to kind of start losing that ego and identifying with a higher power, like I didn't really know the only reference point I had of a higher power was like Sunday school and like being confirmed into my church. And then you know you kind of lose all that and you're when you come out as a gay man, like when you're you know graduate high school, you know get your driver's license, graduate high school, you kind of just you leave all of that behind you, right? And I just you know like it was in the dark. Like I was only looking forward, and yeah. So I forget what the question was. I kind of just got off on tangents.

What was what was early recovery like?

Yeah, it was just it was a very confounding time. It was just super confusing. You know, just I really kind of look at it as like a starting point for the rest of my life, to be honest.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

So you were— it sounds like you went to Sunday school, so you had some type of at least exposure to the Christian church, and you found yourself in church as a part of your recovery. So what was different? How did that evolve for you, and what changed? What drew you back?

Like, NA wasn't working? Well, I went to this one NA meeting, and I tried to share this verse that was really helpful for me. And, you know, like, I was kind of shunned out because, as you know, you're not supposed to share outside literature, including scripture in NA. And I was like, well, you know, it was honestly like I would go to church because I was looking for whatever. I was dying. Like, I was killing myself and I couldn't help it. And it was really scary and I was scared. And like the, you know, every time I relapsed, the crash of that was so hard. And like, I would just drag myself to church and, you know, just the smiling faces of the greeters And just like that vibe in there, like everybody was so happy, happy. Everybody had a smiling face. And yeah, it just felt like a good place to be and it just made me feel good. And of course, you know, you go to church, you just sit. I would always try to sit in the back and I would just like cry. Like I would just like, you know, I still get a little emotional when it comes to my faith because like— It's like really important to me, you know. So, interesting.

Well, you know, when we start talking about church, that's— and you start saying God, and you start saying Jesus, I'm likely to get canceled for saying Jesus on my podcast, because You know, there's a, there's a lot of anger. There's a lot of trauma that, that, that we carry as gay men. I myself, I myself, when I came out, I denounced all, you know, I said I was an atheist.

Same. I bought, I bought the books and I was like, look, Grandma, like, you know, I'm atheist now. And she, you know, who knows, she was probably really upset, but— But same.

She's praying for you. It's probably Grandma's prayers that got you in recovery. Mamaw. Yeah. And so I, for me, I had to delineate, like, I'm not angry at Jesus as an entity. I'm angry at what these people, these humans, these family members of mine portrayed him as.

Right.

Right. And I'm angry at the way I was treated and, and the fear that was instilled in me. You know, I remember, I don't know about you, but I remember thinking when I was masturbating to a man, thinking if Jesus comes back right now, I'll burn in eternal flames, right? Because I'm, I'm sinning at the moment.

I just tried to repress that. And I tried to be like, you know, just really tried to force myself to like, like in Boy Scouts and stuff. Like, you know, like they would like bring out a Playboy magazine. Like I just, I tried to fake it. Oh, and then well then a lot of anxiety, and it's like what's wrong with me? You know, but not so much like I was gonna I was sitting and going to hell because at that point I was already confirmed into my church. Like when I really started to kind of you know like come out as a gay, I didn't come out until I was 18. So at that point I was really already like done with the church. Like I put that behind me like I said. So yeah, and then I just you know recently within you know 2021 really 2020 I started to re I started going back to church because I got my real estate license and I was just. just trying to find, you know, well, and I was sober too, but I was just trying to find clients. Like, it was really like, you know, like, it was— I really started with a couple reasons, but, you know, kind of took hold.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, so tell us about your faith, if you don't mind. Like, what— how do you reconcile being gay and, and being in church?

Yeah, I mean, it sucks because the— there's a lot of Christian fundamentalists that, you know, hate me. There's a lot of Christians out there that think that I am just a sinner. And, and I, you know, if you read the Bible, which honestly, I really don't sit down and like wield the Bible and like read the Bible because it's hard to read and I'm not a big reader. I just like to go to church for the message. Like, I'm probably not like the best Christian, but whatever. Like, You know, only God can judge, right? So, but yeah, just coming to terms with that is tough because every once in a while I find a person that, you know, they find out I'm gay and they want to be like, try to help me. And I know that in my congregation there are people out there that like disagree on the deepest level of how I live my life. But that's them, you know, they're over there. I'm doing my own thing. And, you know, but yeah, I get it. Like, I can identify with the fact that gay men, you know, just want the church to be disintegrated. And it's unfortunate because it really does help a lot of people, you know, especially with major life events like this where, you know, I was able to call back to the Lord for help. So. But yeah, it's— you're right. I mean, it's— it is unfortunate, but I mean, what can we do? You know?

Yeah. Yeah. So, so what I hear you saying is you, you go for the message. The message helps you. Um, you're not stuck on whatever, you know, so-and-so believes.

Well, I mean, we all interpret the Bible differently, right? The Bible is a combination of stories that were written thousands of years ago that have been passed down. And then, there are those people that take the Bible literally and those people hate me. And, I don't want to say I'm fine with that, but it's not going to change. I don't know. I'm still thankful to be a Christian. Like, it's just a constant thing sometimes to share that my religion with the hate that is also associated with it in regards to, you know, gays and lesbians.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So how does— how did your faith, how did that build your recovery? Like, what do you— what are your practices?

I guess, you know, I would just drag my butt to church and just Like I said earlier, I just would just cry and cry and cry with all the shame and the guilt. And like, I learned that like Jesus still loves me, like, and he wants me to be better. Like, I kept screwing up, like I kept relapsing. And I was like, I just felt worthless. Like, I'm so stupid. Like, what's wrong with me?

Mm-hmm.

And like, I just know that, like, I just learned that like, God still loves me. Like, and he wants me to be better. And, um, and that was really, like, just really powerful. Like, I was like, yes, like, I can do this. Like, God loves me still, like, even though I hated myself. Um, so yeah, that was just a really important lesson that I learned that has really kept me sober all this time. So I'm really thankful. Mm-hmm.

Do you pray on a regular basis?

I do. I, well, I journal. I try to journal like 4 or 5 days a week. And then after I do some of my good journaling, like I'll say little prayers. Yeah, typically it coincides with me journaling and praying.

Yeah, yeah, that's a good— well, I don't— if anybody watches my content, you know, I push journaling hard. Because, um, I feel like it's key, it's elementary to not only recovery, but really to live a better life and to, you know, assess, to reflect, um, you know, to stay on track, to set goals. But it's also a prayer. So I'm glad you say that. I mean, when you're journaling, you— I mean, a lot of people pray as they journal, um, and meditate as they journal, right? I mean, there's, there's so much more to journaling than what people think. So I'm glad you mentioned that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's been really helpful for me. I've— journaling took a long time to kind of— I took a long time to grasp journaling, you know, even from when I was like 10, 11, you know, 11, 12 years old. I went to a therapist and stuff because my grades were bad in school and he would always suggest journaling and I'm like, okay, whatever. And then I just Just, I guess rehab really taught me a lot. It gave me a lot of tools too. And even then they're like, you should journal. I'm like, yeah. So I journaled like here and there. Um, but it's really, it's, it's really helped me. So just putting stuff on a paper because there's so much stuff that goes through our mind all day. And, you know, we start the day happy and end up angry and vice versa. And just trying to get that out there. I like to journal in the morning. Um, so yeah. Yeah.

So you journal in the morning. Do you have any other, any other ways that you would describe how you journal, like how you implement it into your life?

I try not to just journal on like, you know, I try to go a little deeper when I journal. Like, so I'm thankful not to have that many triggers anymore, but when I do, I certainly journal about this. So when I first started journaling, like if I— and I read back to my older entries from like a couple of years ago, And, it's a lot about triggers and just scary stuff and drug dreams and all of that and writing about that. And, now, it's kind of evolved a little bit to where I try to focus on my 5 and my 10-year goals. I just try to journal about being happy because sometimes I'm just a miserable person. I think we all go through that sometimes. Being grateful for things, I do a lot of like gratitude exercises and you know write all that stuff down too. So yeah, so yeah, love that.

Yeah. So moving forward, you are in recovery. You are getting in touch with your higher power and the church. You're really talking, you know, and walking, it sounds like, with Jesus, with God. How about relationships after that and/or sex? How did that work for you? Was it difficult to find sober sex again? Did you have to go through a repair process?

So, you know, I'm really lucky to have been in a relationship through this whole thing.

through finding— Oh, wow.

And he stuck with me. And, you know, I was really a jerk and I was a really selfish person and he stayed with me. And so I can't really identify with a lot of the community in regards to that and like going out and like, you know, and the apps and all of that stuff as as that much, um, because we worship together as well. So I'm also really thankful for that. Um, but, uh, yeah, I mean, it was— it was— it's been rigorous journey between him and I because with the— with the meth, um, it— Like, I would be really selfish with it and then I would use it And then do my own thing, if you know what I mean. And then he would come home from work or whatever, and I just wouldn't be interested in him because I would have already taken care of myself, right? With my own, like, deep fantasies or whatever was going on in my messed up brain, I would do that. And this was also during the pandemic when, let's not forget, like, lots of people were really sick and suffering too. I didn't have a lot of my job and he was still working. Yeah, so it's just a lot of stuff. But, you know, I was really inconsistent with my desire, with, with my sexual appetite with him. And then he would blame himself. And it was just a lot. But yeah, it's just, I'm just a little bit more unique with with my message in regards to that. So I don't know if I— that would really apply to a lot of people's— other people's.

Well, it, it does in— it does in a lot of sense. So there's— right now I have, um, a couple that are, that are clients together, um, and they're trying to quit together.

Oh, that's really tough. Wow.

Yeah. And what would you say to—

Geez.

A couple? And, and I hear from clients all the time, you know, Either one's using and one's not, or they're both using and they're trying to quit together. And so in one way, I feel like it's a built-in accountability partner, but in one way, I feel like it's a built-in—

Yeah, that's, that's really tough. I would say go to church, number one. So, but because like, it's, it's so interwoven into the relationship, like, it's, it's gonna be really boring for, for a couple that uses together. to just stop that like that. I don't know. And it might even lead to like them being like, well, like, it might not be— this might not work for us, you know? Like, but I have to— I got to pray for people like, you know, that seems really tough. Like, I don't know what to say about that.

Yeah. But you and your partner—

So he didn't use. I kept my— I kept it like I would use in secret. Like, he would go to bed and then I would just like, you know, administer and then just lay in bed all night beside him just taking care of myself. You know what I mean? And then, he would go to work and then I would do it again. And then, it was so selfish and stupid looking back.

Wow.

And, it's not like opiates. There's a certain level of discretion you can maintain with this drug, which makes it even worse. You know, but it did come— it came to a head, of course, you know, like it always does. And then he kind of like outed me to my family. And, you know, it had to deal with almost like a family intervention of sorts. And that still wasn't enough. I would still keep using, you know, like, it's wild. It's— Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That had to have been a motivational factor, I would think, to keep your relationship correct.

Yeah, I needed him. And, you know, I'm so thankful for him. And, and every once in a while he gets upset, you know, because he looks back and, you know, I did put him through a lot. And it's— and he means a lot to me. And, you know, it's just a selfish, like, insular thing. You know, I just, I don't— I only care about myself. Like, I was in Colorado and he was in New Jersey and like, you know, and he would come, we would see each other quite frequently, you know, over the pandemic and stuff. But like, when I was using, I would just not care about anything. Like, I wouldn't even call, you know, it was just such a selfish disease. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. What a commitment he made to you.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, he's not without his flaws or faults. I'm not trying to air him out, but like, he has some issues too. So he has some prescription drug problems.

But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting, interesting that you survived and now You're together. And the boring part, I think, is important for couples to know that, you know, the sex is going to completely change.

Yeah, I mean, it's like you got— you might not necessarily even want to have sex with each other for a while. And then you might just like, you know, it might be a while too. Like, you know, my boyfriend likes to, you know, he has a little bit more drive than I do. You know, and it's sometimes an issue, like he gets, you know, he has needs and like, you know, you guys, partners, have to meet each other's needs. But, when meth is thrown into the mix, it just throws everything awry.

Yeah.

So, that's just really tough. You can take— what do they call it? And, you would know this more than me, Dr. Bragg. You can abstain from sex for a while and there's a term for it. I forget what it's called. Dr. Anna Lemke, she uses this word. It's like just like a like you just you know stop from indulging in whatever, like you know and just and just maybe take thirty days and it's a dopamine reset, detox, dopamine detox. Right.

Yep.

But it just stinks because we're you know we're men, like it's it's like we're wild this way. So yeah, that's just it's really hard. My heart goes out to the couples out there that. You know, we're trying to just get their lives together off of this stuff. And you know, church worked for me. I mean, you know, it's just I wouldn't I wouldn't always recommend it. It's just a nice place to be. It's a good vibe. Everybody's really friendly.

So your your your faith, it sounds like kept your relationship.

Yeah, because we would go to church together and then we would have lunch, you know, and like have a whole day. And we would— and I like to sing too. So like, you can get your singing, you know, and all that stuff. So yeah.

You have a tune for us?

Well, church choir actually just started up. So I practice tonight. I practice tonight at 8:30. So we're learning some new spiritual music.

So speaking of your faith and your relationship, have you had run-ins with Christians that, you know, that aren't really happy with you two showing up at church together?

Yeah, actually, we have. We were going to this one church down the road, and it was one of the biggest churches in the area. And, you know, the pastor never reached out to my boyfriend and I, like, never shook hands. And, you know, we've been to lots of churches, but my boyfriend liked this church because it was like really nice inside, you know, and just a really big facility. And so we were going there for a while. And one time the pastor said— he was talking about how he officiates weddings.

Oh, wow.

And he was like, but I won't officiate when a man marries another man because God doesn't bless that. And this was after he was talking about how love isn't love. Like, this was a prior topic of his sermon. And me and— what we should have done was we should have walked out of there in the middle of his sermon. But we stayed there. And, you know, afterwards, we always talk about it. And it was just so hateful and it really hurts me and it really makes me question my faith when I run into people that are like that, especially somebody who's leading a congregation like that, you know. And it just sucks that there's, you know, going back to what I said, it just sucks there's Christians out there like that. So we switched to the church that had rainbow flags out in the front. And we're like, oh, well, this church is, you know, going to be a good fit for us, right? And they reconciled. This is a— it's a Medford— or not Medford, it's a Methodist church. And they reconciled with the gay community. So, you know, I was talking to the church ladies because I like to gab after church with everybody. And I told them, you know, a bunch— I told 2 of the ladies that we used to go to this specific church. They were like, Really? They were like, didn't you know how conservative that church is? They were like, when we reconciled with the gay community, we lost members of our congregation to go to that church. And I'm like, no, like we had no idea. And so now I'm just grateful that we did find a church. So this might be a struggle that you guys have, you know, trying to find a place to worship because there's definitely churches out there that are led by pretty hateful people. Also, like, you know, I'm in sales and I was selling to this one reverend. And, you know, as a man of faith, like, we always have to be disciples. And, you know, it's good to talk about it because, you know, it's just, it's so helpful. And I really thought that, you know, I could share my faith with this reverend and he was super nosy and he was like, You know, where do you live? Who do you live with? And I'm like, you know, at this point in my life, you know, I'm not going to try to hide anything. I'm like, I live with my boyfriend. He was like— and his complete demeanor and tone changed. And it was really awkward because, I mean, I'm in a professional environment. And he suggested I read a chapter of the Bible that is really horrible.

Leviticus or something?

Romans.

Yeah.

And And I didn't really know because like I said, I don't really read the Bible too much. And so I read Romans and it's like, it compares gay men with like rapists, murderers, and it's horrible. And, you know, and once again, I just start questioning my faith. Like, why, if there's people that are this hateful about me, like, why do I want to be a part of that? You know? And then you just kind of have to put that aside. And it sucks, but everybody sins differently. I mean, I'm sure that reverend sins in a lot of different ways. And what they don't know is that like, we can't— we didn't choose to be this way. You know, it's almost like they just don't know any better. You know, like, you can't pray this away. Like, this is who I am. Like, I don't know if it's genetic. We don't know, obviously. But it's just kind of like, you just have to take that and, you know, and just kind of pray for them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It reminds me of, I was singing in a congregation once and the pastor was talking about homosexuality and he was fat as fuck.

Yeah, right, like that. Like, put that in a sandwich, you know.

I'm like, what happened to gluttony? Exactly.

So, you know, while it's really unnerving, it's going, You know, and, and you're— if you're a gay man and you want to, you know, start a journey with Christ, it's gonna happen. You know, you're gonna have run-ins with people that just don't like you. Um, but I would, you know, while that is very discouraging, um, you know, you have an option with going this path to like really clean yourself up. And, uh, you know, it's, it's not— it's a good thing. Yeah, yeah.

And it works for you. And, and I would say, you know, that it's the same principle of trying to find your 12-step group that works for you. Like, like, you, you can't go to one or two and say this all sucks. You might, you might have to try some out. Same with the therapist.

Exactly.

You know, I tried therapy but she didn't listen or whatever, she didn't get me. Well, You know how many fucking therapists there are out there? You keep shopping.

Yeah. Well, that's—

well, so you find something.

It's funny you say shopping because that's what me and my boyfriend call it. We call it church shopping. We shopped around for lots of churches and, you know, sometimes you feel like you have it and you're like, I found a cool church and you're like, you go to a new church. So yeah, I mean, it's just like therapy or, or 12-step. I really like 12-step. Really worked for me within early recovery and finding a sober network. So I feel like that was very beneficial for me. But over time, I, you know, because NA is so based on spiritual principles, I was like, let me just go to the next level and just go, you know, try church. So yeah. So I really haven't been to NA. I'll go to NA with friends and people that, you know, to support them on their sober milestones. Like, I'll go to an NA with them. Um, but yeah, I'm thankful that, you know, I just go to church now.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I hope that, that your message helps some gay men see that this is possible, you know, that if you are triggered by church or Jesus or, you know, if you— that's showing you that there's some unprocessed trauma there. Um, and there, you know, that could be something that you might want to look at And that the reconciliation process is possible. Yeah, I want to say on the dopamine reset, the dopamine detox, is that there's a lot of research out there. There's, um, psychiatrists even, or therapists, who suggest a 90-day detox from sex.

That's what I was talking about.

Masturbation. Yeah, to reset your sexual template. So I just want to mention again, I've— I, I say this as often as I can when this topic is brought up, is that you just can't take concepts as they are. You have to think about them, use, use your context, and, and know that it's individualized. So if you're going to detox for 90 days from sex, masturbation, and porn Like Tim said, you're a man, you know, and, and sometimes when you come out of a meth addiction, you don't want to have sex at all. I get that. But the, the sexual— the, the sexual energy comes back. The horniness comes back. It's not just abstain and count the days and, and wait until the 90 days so you can jerk off. You have to be doing the work during that 90 days. You have to really be settling into reading and being in nature and being creative and, you know, getting this energy, giving it an outlet otherwise, and preparing yourself for the onslaught of sexual energy and horniness that's going to come, come back. Because I've seen a lot of guys try this 90-day thing. They count down the days, they can't wait, and then they just go fucking bonkers. You know, because they haven't really done the work to move that energy around. So I do want to— I wanted to do a little, uh, asterisk on that conversation.

Yeah. Can I share a verse of the Bible that's really helped me on your podcast? Is that okay?

Please, please do. Outside literature is welcome.

Is that okay? Yeah. Okay, great. So the, the Book of Matthew, um, Chapter 7, verses 13 and 14 describes 2 gates, one narrow and one wide, and the paths that lead to life and destruction. The narrow gate is the gate that leads to life, is narrow and difficult to find, but only a few find it. The gate that leads to destruction is wide and broad, and many people enter through it. So what that means to me, honestly, and specifically with the gay community, is that a lot of people in this community, unfortunately, a lot of people are suffering. And, you know, indulgence and drugs and alcohol really permeate the fabric of the gay community. And it's really unfortunate. And I think that, you know, the narrow gate and what we have as sober people Is just really, really special, and I think it's kind of like a cool little club, you know. So yeah, I just kind of kind of put that out there because that's that that this chapter specifically has really helped me, and this is actually the chapter that I I shared at an NA meeting, and I was ousted for it. So I just it feels really vindicating to to share share this. Yeah.

Good. I'm glad. Thank you for that. And what comes up for me is back to building your, you know, rebuilding your sexual template. The reason that many men aren't achieving sober sex is because narrow is the gate, meaning it takes a lot of work. Not, not many people want to put in the time, the patience, And the, the fucking hard work it takes to mindfully masturbate and move the sexual tension around and rebuild things up here to, you know, that's the, the wide is the gate that, you know, you just watch porn, jerk off, and program your brain that way.

Saturday night rager, you know, whatever.

Yeah, yeah. And so that's, that's the You know, when there's a lot of guys who's reaching out to me and saying, you know, how do I do this? You have to work. You know, quitting meth is the easy part, right?

Yeah, it's that's the easy part. You know, I look back at the person I used to be and how selfish I was and how angry I was and how egotistical and just like you know my head was so big. Like I really thought that I was like such a cool. Like, I was the coolest person in the whole room. And, like, you really have to let go of that stuff. And just, you know, be true to yourself and who you are on a much deeper level. And yeah, my sober journey has taught me that. Yeah.

Humility.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. Great. Good. Okay. Well, what if I missed, Tim? What have I not asked you about that maybe I Could have anything.

I don't know. You kind of got me to share some really kind of private stuff. Jerk. Yeah. So not— I mean, I kind of— it was really a tell-all of this journey. You know, I don't really think we covered mostly everything.

Yeah. How does it feel to be able to talk about your faith freely on a platform like this? I mean, not to say that I'm, you know, this podcast is huge or anything, but how does it, how does it feel?

It's getting there. It's really, you know, it's been something I've been journaling about, to be honest. I really was a little nervous because I never really shared this about me. And like, I'm really an anomaly. Like, there's really not that many gay Like I'm such a protected class. I'm gay, I'm sober, I'm religious. Like it's I feel like it's me and like maybe six other people in the whole country. Like luckily I have my boyfriend, but yeah, it's it's it's something.

Yeah, yeah. I had the podcast couldn't be aired because of technical difficulties, but I did have a gentleman on. who was married to a dealer, dated a dealer. He found Jesus, but he denounced his homosexuality.

Oh, that's a shame. Like, you don't have to do that. There's other ways. Like, you can still— yeah, you can still be gay and you can love Jesus. It's okay, guys. Like, you can do it. Like, Jesus is like my best friend. Like, he, he's so awesome and he loves me no matter what. And, uh, like, he just wants what's best for me. And like, you know, yeah.

Yeah. And, you know, you have to delineate sometimes, for me anyway, like I said, like, being angry at Jesus as an entity as opposed to being angry at what the church made him out to be for you. And if you can, if you can really separate those two, I think it helps.

Yeah, it does. It's, uh, It's— and that's, that's, that's the whole thing, you know, just being able to separate that. Um, and like I said, there's just— there's lots of hateful people out there just in general in this world. And, um, but whenever you go to church, it's like you're around people that, you know, like, just— I don't know, like, it's just a— it's, it's a cool vibe. Everybody needs to go to church.

Well, thank you for sharing, and I got to share personal stuff. I even made you tear up once, so I'm, I'm proud of myself for that. Yeah, thank God. Um, so if you'd like to join the conversation, you can make comments on the YouTube version of the podcast, you can comment on Spotify, um, or you can just send me an email if you have questions or comments. I'm happy to do that. You can join the community. We have an Aftermath Facebook page, the Aftermath Podcast Community. You can go to our website aftermath.net and you can submit your questions or comments there as well. I am always looking for suggestions for topics. I'm currently looking for, uh, trans people. I'm currently looking for people of color, and I'm currently looking for sex workers that we want to— I want to expand the reach that we have and the topics that we're reaching here. Um, and so that is kind of a goal for season 2 of The Aftermath, which will start 2025. So, all right guys, I will see you all in the next one.