Ep 1:4 Social Circles Post Addiction with Paul

Welcome to The Aftermath Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create a repository of resources for current and past addicts, as well as their loved ones. This is The Aftermath. Trigger warning, this podcast Not may, it will contain discussions pertaining to sex, drugs, and alcohol. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Repeat, trigger warning. This podcast will contain discussions about drug use, alcohol use, and sex misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. All right, welcome to this episode of Aftermath. Today we are talking about building social networks post-addiction, and this is a topic that is very relevant, very important. And what I hear the most— well, besides the sex talk, which we've had before, Paul— You know, men coming out of meth addiction is, how do I rebuild my social network? And where do I do it? And how do I do it? Why should I do it? And I'm scared to do it. And all those things that come into play with trying to restart a life and rebuild a life post-addiction. But we are talking about that today with our guest. Very honored to have Paul Janeski. MS, LPC, CRC. He's a licensed professional counselor. He is an actual therapist and a life coach. He's been in private practice since 2013, specializes in working with gay men on a variety of issues including addiction, anxiety, trauma, depression, grief, and loss. He takes an integrative and holistic approach, which I'm really anxious to hear about. Incorporating a variety of interventions and techniques to help gay men manage and cope with both mental health and addiction struggles. So Paul was raised, born and raised in Scranton, Pennsylvania. Paul's struggle with depression and anxiety is what inspired him to want to help and work with others. And he believes that this personal experience provides him with an increased level of empathy and understanding when working with his clients, which I agree. Paul is a licensed professional counselor with a Master of Science degree in rehabilitation counseling. Or Yeah, rehabilitation counseling. Paul also has earned a certificate of advanced graduate study in counseling from the University of Scranton and possesses a nationally recognized certification as a certified rehabilitation counselor. Paul is licensed in Pennsylvania and lives in upstate New York with his husband and 2 dogs, 2 dog babies, fur babies.

Fur babies.

All right, my very first Live on Instagram was with Paul. It was, uh, when was that? Last year, maybe about this time.

I don't know. Yeah, it had to be within the year. I remember it being kind of, um, still kind of cold out. I don't remember if it was pre-holidays or post-holidays, but it was about a year ago.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting. A year ago I had, uh, a very old laptop and it was stepped on books, and I had this whole setup in the corner of my kitchen, and that was my office. But we talked, we had a really good talk. It was talk— we talked about sex after meth. And unfortunately, Instagram shadow banned it and blocked it and shut me down for a while because we talked about kinks and fetishes and sex. And so on this podcast, we can talk about anything we want. And it is— yeah.

I didn't realize that that had happened. But that's interesting.

Yeah, they did not like— they did not like it. That was before I was kind of learning about You know, on Instagram, you can't— I can't put the word meth out there. I have to put M3TH or sex, S asterisk X or whatever. You can't have the word sex anywhere. And so in your captions, you have to hide it too. Needle is a keyword that will get me shadowbanned. I've been shadowbanned a lot. So it picks up on different little words and, you know, you can't even say addiction too much. Or it sends me this message saying, if you're asking for help, you know, call the SAMHSA hotline. And it's, you know, some AI something somewhere is picking up on that. But it didn't like all the fetish talk that we talked about leather and kinks and stuff like that, which we may get into today. I don't know. But the podcast is labeled explicit and it has trigger warnings on it. So we shouldn't be any problems or anyone shutting us down on there. Today, so but before we get started, I like to have a wellness check in to see where we are. And so, Paul, how are you doing today?

I am doing fairly well today. It's Friday, and it's a little colder than I expected here in in Binghamton, New York. But last week it was so warm, which I'm sure it was warm down your way too.

Yes.

But it was 19 degrees when I woke up today, so it was a big difference from last week. But we're We're in the first week of spring, start of spring, and it should, it's only a matter of time before everything starts to warm up and get summery again. But I am doing well. How are you? How are you? I'll check in with you. How are you doing?

Thanks. I'm doing really well. I, you know, I used to make light of seasonal affective disorder. And this is the first year it got cold and dark. That I shut down emotionally, just got so sad and mad. I've been over the past few months, I've made it public as I am expressing a lot of suppressed anger.

Mm.

And I was angry at the weather. I was so mad at being cold. It was such a, you know, such a whiny thing to do, but I was just like, I was so mad at it. And it started getting dark early and I had a rough time with it. Very first time ever in my life. But so this, the spring coming and things in bloom and it was so, it was really warm here. It was in the 70s, 75 one day. Really picked me up, made me happy. But it is again cold here today.

Not to get too far off track. I don't even know if I can pull this into view, but This is a therapy light box.

Ah, that's what I need.

You can get them off of Amazon, but it's, you know, it's supposed to give you full spectrum light. You just put it on for maybe 10 or 15 minutes a day and it kind of mimics for your eyes what you would be getting from the sun. And I could relate to that because we had, we had 10 or 10 to 12 days of no sun here back in like January. It really affected me too. It's, you know, that seasonal affective disorder is a real thing. Some people think it's It's baloney, but it's not.

Yeah. It's funny, whenever, you know, when someone, whatever you judge or make fun of, usually you're going to get it. You're going to figure out that that's what's active in you. And so, you know, because I always thought, you know, that it was spiritual to be, and we're getting way off topic, but spiritual to be in a good mood and happy all the time. You know, and no matter what, I'm going to be positive. And that isn't it. That's not, that's not real life, right?

No, you're right.

Yeah.

Because, I mean, we could certainly try to adjust our perceptions and our attitudes and our inner dialogue about things. But sometimes from a physiological perspective, there's other things happening, whether, you know, lack of sleep, poor diet, stress, lack of sunlight, other, other physiological issues can, can cause us to feel down. And sometimes there's no explanation. Sometimes we just have a bad day and that's okay. It's not always desirable, but it happens.

Right, right. And there's contrast. You can't, you know, you can't appreciate the good days without the bad ones.

If every day was a 10, then, you know, we just get kind of complacent with that.

Right, right. Yeah. So, but overall I'm doing well. I have some decisions I'm making. I might be moving soon and different things like that. So Um, just taking every day. Yeah. Yeah. My son is, um, he's 20. He'll be 21 in October. And I think he, he's ready to start his adult life. And I wasn't ready for him to start his adult life.

Um, but ready or not, it's happening. Empty nest syndrome, possibly.

Yeah. Which is so funny too, because I, I, my sister reminded me of this. I did a podcast with my, my sister and She reminded me of a lot of things I had forgotten, but she's like, you know, you used to say when the kids were little, I cannot wait for them to turn 18. I just cannot wait for them to turn 18 and I can't wait for them to get out of the house. And now I'm just like, no, don't go. Oh boy.

We're always wishing for something that we don't have or want. And then when it happens, it's like, oh, I don't know if that's really what I wanted.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Okay. Well, now in the— so the next step in the show typically, and this episode probably will be around episode 5 or 6, typically is we're going to read on air on the show a story or a question from a listener or a voicemail. But I want to take a minute to encourage my listeners to go to our website. It's www.aftermath.net. Up at the top, you'll see you can share or you can ask a question. And this is for if you are a current or past crystal meth addict, or if you're a loved one of, or hey, a professional like Paul who is connected to addicts. There are options on there. There's Recovery After Meth, which is share your happiest moments and epiphanies, success stories, reflections of life post-meth addiction. That is really something that could be so therapeutic and helpful for someone who's currently in active addiction, something to strive for, right? There's a kind of a funny one, Hot Meth Express. And this is where you can share your crazy memories or your dark, deep, deep, dark secrets that you have never told that you need to get released. And you can do that in an anonymous survey through our website. The Party's Over, which is writing a letter to your addiction to crystal meth, expressing your emotions and saying farewell. Meth Understood, which is share something about your experience with meth that is often misunderstood by society. Then we have a question option for loved ones of meth addicts. We have family members, partners, friends, coworkers who really are stuck, confused. They want to help. They don't know how. They want to know more about gay men and how they act on crystal meth. And so this, this will be an option for them to write in questions and we're going to answer. And that's the whole point of the podcast to begin with, was a repository of tools and resources for people to use who have questions about the sickness, the addiction, not sickness. Some people say it's a sickness, but anyway, there we go. We want to hear from you. Please go to the website. And contribute the best that you can. aftermath.net. Okay. So Paul, I would love to hear first, if you don't mind, your integrative and holistic approach with gay men. I know that's, again, not on topic, but it is on topic. I really like to hear how it is that you work with gay men in that way.

Yeah, I think, and I might use some therapeutic lingo here. I'll try to define some of it if people aren't familiar with it.

Yeah, for me.

So there's different types of therapeutic approaches. So cognitive behavioral approach, which is one, CBT for short, which is one of the techniques that I use, is more of the belief that our narrative, our inner narrative, our thoughts kind of influence and direct our behaviors and feelings. And especially with individuals with addiction and/or co-occurring disorders with, let's say, anxiety, depression, mental health issues, it helps us look at that unhealthy narrative and expose that narrative to see if there's a better way to reframe things. A lot of times we speak in absolutes, black and white thinking, all or nothing type statements. Self-doubting statements, negativity, what-ifs, worries, anxieties, fears about the future. So with, with CBT, we like to take a look at that dialogue and, and try to tame it with, with more realistic, kinder, rational statements that are, are, are real. Um, as opposed to some of these, these, what's the word I'm looking for, exaggerations that we make up in our heads sometimes.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Another technique or therapeutic approach is, you know, and this is a little bit, this is an older technique, psychodynamic theory, which, you know, that stemmed from Freud, which is more about looking into people's patterns and their life history and their childhoods and their relationships growing up. And a lot of people, you know, have this joke, you go in to see a therapist and say, are you going to ask me about my mother or my father? And I'm like, well—

Right.

Yeah, I am, because as much as I, I know a lot of people come to us for, for things that are happening in the here and now.

Yeah.

But a lot of those things that are happening in the here and now have been formed or shaped or influenced by things that have happened many years ago. Not always, but for a lot of people who have had trauma, um, dysfunctional families, chaotic backgrounds, um, substance abuse within their own family system, That influences us. You know, addiction and mental health doesn't just occur in a vacuum. I mean, certain disorders and conditions like bipolar or major depressive disorder, certain types of anxieties can certainly just, you know, emerge in anybody. But a lot of that stuff happens because of things that occurred years and years ago, or internal beliefs that we formed about ourselves years and years ago.

Yeah.

And, you know, as you probably know, and, you know, we— I think we even talked about before, is As gay men, um, our inner dialogue can be, um, and our, our histories with people can be troubled.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then thirdly, I like to take a, a mindfulness-based approach, which— and it's a, it's a simple term, we hear mindfulness used a lot, but, but it's, it's really trying to tap into the present moment, the here and now. And this goes back to some of the CBT, you know, CBT. People's minds think about the past, they think about the future. Well, let's, let's bring it to the present moment because it's almost like radio chatter or static, you know, on a channel that the past, the stories of the past, the stories about the what-ifs about the future. Let's just focus in this moment today. What do they say in recovery? I'm just Just this moment. I'm sober for just for today. We're not going to think about, you know, what did I relapse yesterday or that, you know, am I going to relapse 2 weeks from now? No, just today is all that matters. Yeah.

Yeah. I love that. I love that. Let me ask you, so the cognitive behavioral therapy option that you listed first talks a lot about the inner narrative. So Men that I am talking with on a day-to-day basis, you know, they, they're, they're in addiction because they have this narrative about themselves that, that, you know, that they're terrible, that they're obscene, you know, that they are dirty, you know, all that kind of thing. Even the word used in recovery circles is clean and sober. So are you, have you, how long have you been clean? Which I don't like that term anyway, especially when it comes to—

I don't either.

Yeah, even with HIV, you know, are you clean? Anyway, what I see a lot is overthinking too. But my question is, when I come to you and I have these thoughts about myself that I'm, you know, that I am unclean, when, how do you change that in a way that I believe it? And so what I mean is, You can say an affirmation like, I am powerful, I am love, or whatever, but you don't really believe it. So how do you make that switch with, with men?

I think before we try to even challenge that, I like to highlight for people, okay, you're calling yourself unclean or dirty or, you know, whatever negative pejorative you You can think of, and then I'll say to them, you know, think of somebody important in your life, whether it be a loved one, a spouse, a friend, a coworker who cares about you deeply. And if they, for whatever reason, just randomly came up to you and said, Dallas, you know, you're such a dirty person. You just, you know, I know you have this history of you know past addiction. Like, you know, that that's just I can't I can't imagine that. Like Don't you feel dirty? Like, you know, so if somebody insulted you in that way, you know, how would you— would it be acceptable? Would you tolerate that from another individual, like a label like that? And most people would say no. I mean, it wouldn't be okay for somebody to call me a name or put me down or judge me in that way. So then my next question would be, why do we— why do you have permission to do it to yourself?

Hmm.

You know, so we, we have this tendency to have 2 separate sets of rules. Yeah.

Yeah.

We have the rules for other people as far as language and what's okay for people to say or not say to us. And then we have a separate set of rules for ourselves with usually a much higher standard. And we just give ourselves much more permission and leeway to be cruel and unkind to ourselves. So I like to first look at that type of negative talk as at least helping people identify that What you're saying to yourself is not kind. It's not helpful. And a lot of people will fire back with, "Well, it's the only way to motivate myself," or "It's the only way to kick myself in the ass to try to get to do differently or do better." Yeah. And and I look at that as that's okay. It's reinforcement, but it's negative reinforcement. And I guess negative reinforcement can sometimes be effective, but we want to. We want to use positive reinforcement and use things that actually help us feel good. Because if I'm walking around with this inner dialogue that I'm a horrible person, I've screwed up, I've hurt people, I'm an abomination, um, that becomes a belief system, that becomes an internalized dialogue that now I just— back in my head, maybe I'm not even thinking of it all the time, but just this feeling that I suck.

Mm-hmm.

And how do we heal and how do we get better? from addiction, mental health, whatever it might be, if we just have this inner belief that we suck or we're not good or we're dirty or unclean. Does that help answer the question, at least in terms of trying to attack that initial negative view?

Yeah, I like the notion of turning it around to say, you know, if someone's— would your mom be allowed to say that to you or your friend? Or if your friend was feeling this way, what, you know, what would you say to them?

Or something like that. That's a that's a healthy perspective too. Is like, well, what if somebody came to you and said, you know, if your best friend came to you and said, "I have this history of doing X, Y, or Z, and I just I feel like an unclean, dirty person." Would would you say, "Well, yeah, you are," or would you say like, "That hurt that it hurts me to hear you say that," you know? And I've said I've said that to clients when when they say horrible things about themselves. I feel pain hearing you say that about yourself because there's so much more to an individual than just. Their behaviors or their addictions or whatever maybe got them into trouble or into a tight spot. You know, we can become very judgmental about those things. And maybe it's really, you know, potentially destroyed our lives or hurt lives of other people, put us in a bad financial situation, lost jobs, pushed people away. That still doesn't make us inherently a bad, unclean, dirty person.

Right, right. Yeah, you know, and I think it's a challenge too with men who come from crystal meth addiction because there is such a negative stigma around crystal meth. I know men who will go to AA and say they're an alcoholic just to circumvent admitting that they have a meth addiction because they're too embarrassed.

You know, yeah, it almost, you know, there's such a negative stereotype about that. And maybe it's because of, um, you know, some, some of the behaviors that result from crystal meth addiction, whether it's like lots of promiscuous sex or, or acting out in other ways. Um, and, and I think the society's view— viewpoint of it too, just there's a negative connotation. And I've seen that happen with other substances as well. Like Even with opiates, you know, a lot of people that are seeking opiate recovery and support will go to AA rather than NA for whatever reason.

Oh, okay.

So, and I get it. I believe that people need to do what's right for them in their recovery. So if you need to go to AA and that's where you feel safe and comfortable, go for it. But I also, I also believe that there should be safe spaces for any particular substance so that people can feel supported. And, you know, you, you wanna, you wanna be around people that get you. I mean, Yeah. Sure, addiction is similar, very similar regardless of the substance, but, but people's life experiences, especially when it comes to crystal meth and, and, and gay men, You know, I don't know. I mean, I've had to go to AA meetings for, for, for, you know, coursework and to understand and experience what that environment's like. And, um, I don't know. I don't know if I would want to be— and I'm not saying that there aren't safe AA spaces that are mixed, hetero— heterosexuals, homosexuals, whatever. Um, I'm sure there's plenty of people, gay men, that can get treatment and help from those, those spaces. But isn't it much better to be around like-minded people, to be around other gay men or queer men or, you know, anybody on the LGBTQ spectrum who's struggled with meth addiction and know like the person across from you gets it, especially if there's other layers to it when it comes to promiscuity, possible HIV exposure, um, just, just talking about, you know, the gay world in general. I mean, you know, you bring that up in a general meeting for AA and You know, some straight folks might be looking like this is a little uncomfortable or this is a little weird. This person's talking about sex or sexuality and we don't like this here. I'm not saying that that happens, but we need to feel safe.

Well, it does happen. You know, there's— I hear from a lot of men who they are in therapy, but they get out of therapy because maybe their therapist is a woman or maybe their therapist is a straight man. And they want to— it's therapeutic and it's to share. That's what I have, why I have Hot Mess Express on the website is to share some of what you've experienced and to admit that you still like some of that. You know, I had, yeah, I had a gentleman tell me the other day, he told his therapist about his love of water sports. No. And he says, I did that while I was on crystal meth, but I kind of still want to do it. And he said, it was just one glance from her, kind of a shock. And he just went— it shut down. He just shut down and he left and he hasn't been back because he already has layers of shame just from being a gay man.

Absolutely.

Plus the meth, plus the HIV. And now he's being shamed by a professional for wanting to be pissed on, you know.

And sometimes it's subtle. I mean, just little tiny microaggressions where, you know, a strange look or a deer in headlights or closed body language. And it's like, okay, this is not a safe space for me to talk about certain aspects of sexuality in gay men's lives.

Yeah, yeah. So it does make sense that if you're looking for a community to, to want to have a community of like-minded people, gay men, maybe who have experienced crystal meth. What would you say though, to a man right out of addiction, who is nervous about being with a group of gay men talking about sexual stuff, like in a, maybe a Crystal Meth Anonymous meeting, because of the triggering that happens from being there with gay men.

Yeah.

Is there, is there a step in between?

Look, I'm going to back up one second and just say for anybody out there that's listening or considering or needing to get to a meeting, that if, if you don't have any, I hope people have options for, for, for solely gay-focused, um, 12-step meetings or, or such. But if that's not the case, I would still encourage people to get to a meeting even if it's not, you know, comprised of gay men, you know, because that, that sober support is essential. Ideally though, you know, and the purpose of this conversation is like hopefully people can find, you know, LGBTQ support systems in their community that are 12-step oriented or some sort of sober support. But to get back to your question about being triggered, I would, if it feels like a safe enough space to even acknowledge that to somebody, whether if there's a facilitator or a leader for that particular meeting, and just kind of vocalize that to say like, you know, I'm having a hard time tonight or today because There's, you know, people's stories or situations in this room are triggering for me. Because I think the worst thing that we could do with anything that we're pained about or shameful of is to keep it a secret. I love that. So if we sit there in silence and be like, I'm feeling triggered because there's— I'm surrounded by all these men. And so let me back— when you say triggered, you mean feeling like the urge to use or the urge to be sexual or a combination or?

Yeah, I kind of use trigger as a broad term. You know, it could be an emotional trigger, you know, because I still get social anxiety, to be honest with you, being in a group of gay men. Yeah, I'm triggered in a different way. I don't want to use crystal meth. But I— there's something in me that's like, you know, right. But, but I would say in that, in that context, yes, it would be talking about it would you know, stir something up in your mind. Because I'll be honest with you, that's— in the beginning, that's why I didn't attend CMA meetings, Crystal Meth Anonymous meetings specifically. So I was like, I'm going to be sitting, you know, with a bunch of gay men who are just, you know, that, that know what it's like to use, and we're going to be talking, you know. All of that went in my head. Talk about narrative. And it scared me away to the fact that I— to the point that I didn't even try. I didn't even go. I went to, I went to predominantly straight, well, 100% straight NA meetings.

Yeah.

And I just felt safer there myself. And so I do want to say that too, if you're listening, that if you are LGBTQ, and you don't want to go to an all-gay meeting in the beginning, I think it's okay, right?

Absolutely.

And another option, there's all kinds of online meetings now, and you can go to an online meeting with your camera off. Yeah.

I mean, and I think if there's anything fortunate that's coming out of COVID and the pandemic is just this broadening and this greater accessibility to, you know, groups, virtual groups, in-person groups. There's a lot more support out there. And especially virtually, if people are uncomfortable, you know, like, like, you know, you said yourself, some people with social anxiety maybe don't even want to leave the house just yet.

Right.

So, but they need to get some support. So if they can do it virtually and keep their camera off, if they so choose, then, then, okay, let's— we want to do things that's going to set the person up for success rather than if there's something that's going to scare them away and possibly lead them to just try to recover in silence and possibly relapse sooner. Or later, then, you know, that's— we don't want that.

Right, right. Yeah. And I want to underscore what you said about honesty and transparency. I just want to take a minute, if you're listening to this, is have someone that you can say, I'm feeling triggered right now. I want— triggered in terms of I want to use, or even emotionally triggered. I'm feeling this way. Being open about that, no matter how long you've been sober, which is a lesson I've had to learn. You know, after 5 years, there are still situations that come up. Well, almost 6 years. Still situations that come up in my life that I didn't expect to trigger me. You know, even at the gym, at the gym, I saw my veins popping out.

Triggered.

You know, and it helped. I just, you got to, you got to be open about it. And I think that's such a great point that you made.

Yeah. And it's about getting in touch with those emotions or those, you know, whether it's an emotional trigger or a thought, you know, you look down at your veins and if the heart races or you feel nervous or you start to get sweaty or excited, you know, just, just, just name it and be able to say, okay, this— it's the same Sometimes when we can put those triggers into a physiological metaphor of it's the same thing as when you, you know, put a wedge of lemon up to your mouth and your mouth starts to water.

Hmm.

It's a conditioned response. So, you know, the veins have been paired with, you know, that's the kind of the setup for use. Or, you know, some people have triggers when it comes to— I don't know if this is true with a lot of meth addiction, but a lot of opiate users like tend to use in the bathroom. So once they, they stop using, bathrooms can be really difficult because it's like, well, this is where I used to use, and sometimes even nod off.

Um, yeah, I didn't think about that.

So, so even, you know, with— in particularly with gay men, if they're using with other individuals, particularly if that's, you know, connected to a hookup or with sex, I mean, so, you know, The potential for sex could be a trigger. Um, getting aroused can be a trigger.

Yeah.

Uh, there, there's so many things that, you know, we could go down a rabbit hole talking about, about, about triggers. But the point was the, the emotional, giving voice to those emotional or, or even thought-based responses internally. Um, 'cause I always, I always say better out than in, you know, whether, whether you speak it in your head, I'm feeling triggered right now, or you're able, and even better so, to say it to another individual or journal it. It just brings a greater awareness, I think, to our internal experience. And the more awareness we have, I think the better off we are to be able to fight off some of those, those, you know, things that kind of come up and try to pull us down.

Yeah.

And nip at our feet.

Yeah. I love that. Better out than in. That's good.

That's true. And, you know, this doesn't have to be addiction specific. I mean, in any types of emotions that we experience, It's better to process it rather than just stuff it down.

Yeah, yeah, great. We're going to take a break for a quick moment, and we'll be right back with you. Hey, Dallas here. Are you tired of stacking up the white chips? 12 steps hasn't worked for you? Been to treatment several times? Feeling pretty hopeless? You're asking yourself, will I ever be able to get past relapse? Will I ever be able to string together a substantial amount of sober time? I'm here to tell you that oftentimes the answer to relapse is a slight shift in perception. Actually, any growth in life— spiritual, mental, emotional— it's one perception shift after the other. I'm giving away my free 28-day Reframing Relapse online course to help you shift your perception about your addiction, your relapse, and yourself. This 28-day program has daily journal prompts, guided meditations, and 2 free 30-minute coaching sessions with yours truly. At the end of this 28 days, you will look at relapse through a different lens and change the course of your addiction cycle. I promise you that. I could give your money back, but I'm not charging you anything. If you're interested, the link will be in the show notes, and I look forward to seeing you there. Okay, we are back with Paul Janeski. We're talking about— we are talking about a lot of things actually today. But in terms of building a social network for a gay man, what is— why is it so important? And what are the biggest challenges, the most difficult challenges to overcome in starting a social network from scratch? Where do you go? What do you do? Is it a is it a grinder thing? Is that the option? Is that the only answer we have, or what would you tell? What would you tell a man?

Well, and I'm going to use a larger umbrella just addiction or substance abuse in general for a moment because I think as gay men, you know, there we we have a strong culture of of. We know how to have fun. We know how to have, you know, a good time and have a party. And that's it. And it could be a big part of, of some of our social gatherings and our early life experiences. And when we first come out of the closet, maybe our first experience with other gay men could be in a gay bar and actually, you know, so with alcohol or other substances that might be present. And so that's, you know, there's It's a celebratory community a lot of the times. So a lot of that time it involves substances. So I think it can be hard and intimidating for gay men to think, well, I've just lost my community. Like, where am I going to go? Because everybody's, everybody's at the bar, or all my friends are still using. Where do I start?

Yeah.

And that could be really daunting. And Even just preparing for this conversation, I did some cursory glances on Google just to see like what's out there.

Yeah.

For people that's beyond what I'm familiar with. And honestly, it seems to be very city and region specific. So there's not one big website that just has a list of social activities for sober individuals.

Interesting.

Not that I could find. But if you go, if you go to, you know, I saw that, you know, New York Pride has a sober-specific event. And I think I saw something, maybe, maybe it was Austin or somewhere in Texas that had a sober-specific Pride event. And, and I think we need to encourage that to happen a lot more. You know, I tend to do a lot of camping over the summer at a gay campground, and there tends to be a lot of partying and fun there. And not everybody's obviously using or getting drunk, but there's also a, you know, a Friends of Bill meeting. So, you know, I think it's a matter of making it known. If you're somebody that needs help and treatment or wants that support of the community, ask, you know, ask somebody that— if you have another individual in your life that's in recovery that's LGBTQ, Hey, do you know of any other? Are there you know twelve-step groups out there that are gay-specific? Which in most most towns you can find them. I can't guarantee that they're in every city, but you might have to drive maybe forty minutes an hour out of the way if that's really important to you. Sober socials, and I think we've seen this happen more more so maybe from a heterosexual perspective. But I think maybe this was after the pandemic. You started seeing these these bars pop up in New York. city that were sober bars. I don't know what that means in terms of like, if what's going on there, if it's not alcohol, it's, I guess it's a bar atmosphere without the beer and alcohol.

But, um, yeah, they have non-alcoholic elixirs now that, I mean, they have non-alcoholic wine too. They have non-alcoholic tequila. You get the taste and the experience and the lights and the music and the dancing, just not the alcohol.

Yeah, and I, I wouldn't— I suspect, and I, I'm speaking off the top of my head now, I suspect that that's more for people who maybe just want, you know, they're doing a sober January, they just want to kind of decompress from some partying. So it's like, let's go to, you know, a sober social. I don't know if it's the best place to go for somebody who wants ongoing sobriety because I, you know, we don't know the makeup of those groups. But, you know, we need to go in and maybe explore and just see, is this a safe place to be? And who else, who else can I relate to? Is, you know, is, can we see if anybody from my community is in here, so to speak?

Yeah. Yeah. What do you say to someone though who has social anxiety? Um, that the thought of, you know, cause there's meetup groups. Have you heard of meetup.com? There's, you know, there's Stonewall sports that men can do. Well, women can too.

Sure.

That, you know, that unfortunately, a lot of those Stonewall activities though meet at a bar or they go to a bar after. But, you know, doing playing kickball, volleyball, something like that, you're not really drinking or whatever. But the thought of walking into a room like that for the first time, second time is scary and paralyzing. And I'm talking about me. But I mean, men that I talk to as well is like, we're like, again, if you've— so if you've been using crystal meth, let's say, and this is common since COVID So what I'm seeing now is a lot of men who started using during COVID Are now at their point of no return where they need to stop.

It's got out of hand and now they need, they need, they need help. Yeah.

And so for 4 years, the only circle they've had were, like you said, the guys that they used with. So not only are they, you know, they're overcoming a lot of shame, some paranoia, there's still a little, little bit of that going on. But also an idea of— there's, there's an idea of gay men that they are a certain way, that they're sexually predatorial, a little bit, or whatever, because what they've experienced for the past 4 years are Grindr guys, right?

Right.

And so what would you say to someone, or how— what would the strategies be to get from where you are to walking into a room I think you're hitting on something that seems to be common and even exclusive from—

it's not exclusive to addiction, but I think a lot of gay men, including myself, I've struggled. This has been part of my journey is to— there's an intimidation factor sometimes. We don't always know if we fit in and, you know, in our community. Community, it could be a little competitive, or we have this thought in our head that like, you know, we got to keep appearances or, or be ripped or shredded or intelligent or have a certain amount of money in our bank account or have the most perfect boyfriend or the biggest house or the nicest car and, and, or the most witty person in the room. And, and we start to judge ourselves, right? So it's like you walk into a room of gay men and you start to compare yourself with Like, well, he's more, you know, he's more attractive than me, or he seems like he has it all together. I now I feel, I feel less than, and I feel intimidated.

Mm-hmm.

I would say, like, again, separate from addiction, is that if gay men are struggling with low self-esteem or low self-worth, or social anxiety when it comes to being around other gay men, is to possibly even try a group therapy session. that's exclusive for gay individuals, that's led by a gay therapist. Um, because group therapy is extremely powerful.

Hmm.

And I, I think what it allows is, you know, you get in a group of maybe 6 to 8 to maybe 10, 10 people tops for, I don't know, 6 weeks, 8 weeks, 10 weeks, and you quickly form a bond with those people where you learn to trust and communicate and normalize certain experiences and be able to say, hey guys, I feel intimidated by you because we're all gay and I don't feel good enough.

I love that. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Which goes back to some of that better out than in, right? Just being open about it. Yeah.

To be able to say, well, you know what, I I have a GED, nothing wrong with that, but some, some people might think that that's a strike against their, their personhood. Or, you know, I live with my mom, or I don't even have a car, and I feel like I'm a bad gay, so to speak.

Um, yeah.

And hopefully for a therapist leading that group or other group members to say, but you're such a kind person, Or look at what you've been able to pull yourself through. And you've helped me in a couple sessions back, and you were able to turn turn my day around and be able to say like, you know, put something in perspective or give some piece of advice like to to feel accepted and to feel seen without all this other fluff about you know what what makes people wonderful or special. That you know it's it's about the individual, and I I don't think. In general, emotional healing, physical healing, especially when it comes to addiction specifically, can't happen in a vacuum, you know, and straight, gay, regardless, we need others to be able to heal. I, you know, I'm not saying it's necessary, but I think it's so important.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, the popular phrase is the opposite of addiction is connection.

Yes.

Right.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. And I would also— all of that is great. And I would say what's important there too is that you get out and you meet— as hard as it may sound, expose yourself to men in person instead of what you experience online and experience on social media, right?

Yeah. And to go back to that, image that you created before about, you know, just, you know, having maybe over COVID and just maybe hooking up with people on Grindr that, you know, everybody or freak, you know, a lot of people are using. That's a microcosm of a specific population of people. So, you know, we get biased in our viewpoint of a specific population maybe gets skewed because it's like, well, all these guys I met up with either, you know, Stole my money, beat me up, were rude to me, or, you know, took advantage of me sexually or didn't observe my boundaries. And it was just a mess. And all gay men are like that. Well, no, that's not true. It's just like what we kind of maybe— what's the word— kind of flooded ourselves with over a specific period of time. You did mention, you know, you had said before, well, where do people go to maybe find support?

Yeah.

You mentioned Grindr. I'm not opposed to apps. I mean, you know, the dating apps and the hookup apps have been a wonderful addition for, for, for people to connect. You know, I'm, you know, I was born in the '70s. And, you know, when I was coming out, there was still, you know, men were still going to, you know, trails and parks in the dark to hook up. So, you know, Grindr's opened up that world.

Yeah.

But I think especially if some has a tendency for meth addiction, I don't know if Grindr is necessarily the best place to go.

Yeah.

And I even, when I work with even some of my clients who are in recovery but still dabble with Grindr, I kind of cringe inside. And, you know, I'm like, we gotta be careful with Grindr 'cause we, you know, even if we're not looking for substances, you know, just seeing some of those code words or, you know, friend of Tina, party and play, something with a capital T and all the other acronyms and code words can, you know, light up that trigger that you talked about, similar to what you experienced in the gym. It's just like, oh, okay, that person knows, you know, knows how to have fun. Maybe I'll just shoot them a little message and say, hey, what's up? And without any— I'm not going to go any further than that. I'm just going to like just see what's going on. But then the ball just starts and then, you know, some of those recovery principles go out the window and before we know it, we're We're hooking up with somebody and it's a bad situation.

Yep, that's right. That's right. Something that I tracked in my journaling was in the beginning, the beginning of the end was always me re-downloading Grindr or me going back to Sniffies, which I don't know if you're familiar with Sniffies, but—

I'm not.

Or Scrubs. Sniffies. So if you could take Grindr and make it even Worse. It's Sniffies. It's, it's an online, you go to a website, but it's actually GPS driven.

Gotcha.

So you see where they are, road and, you know, everything, but you can be set up at a park and say, I'm at such and such park in my car, whatever. So it's in real time, you can go, they're party, they're Orgies are scheduled on there. You can sign up for one. So it's a whole system, um, and it is easier, quicker, and more anonymous to find, uh, crystal meth on there too.

Gotcha.

Um, where was I going with all of that now? I can't remember what I was saying. What I was saying, um, I was just saying the thing about the apps too, for me, is if you have a fragile self-esteem, if you are just coming into trying to change the narrative, as you were, as we were saying in the beginning, the culture on there is just hazardous for that.

Yes.

You know, the insults, the getting blocked, the, you know, no fats, no femmes, you know, all that kind of stuff that It's just, it's ripe for being hurt emotionally.

I agree. And as you know, especially with individuals in early recovery, I mean, you know, there's already a fragileness there to begin with. You know, especially if you've just maybe gotten out of, say, like a 30 or 60-day inpatient stay and you're still a little medically unstable or just feeling kind of off. You know, the temptation might be, well, I'm out. I got my phone back. Let me see who's on the apps. Are there any new faces? And I'm not against looking for human connection or wanting to socialize with people. I'm certainly not trying to bash any of those apps. But early recovery, we certainly have to be like you had said, Dallas, you have to be so careful about, you know, some of that intense The insults, the criticisms, the judgments, the pushiness that could be there. And maybe it's just better for a period of time until you kind of build up a little bit of a callus and get some more recovery time under your belt before you start to dabble down into those apps again.

Yeah. Yes. Yes. And I remember what I was going to say is that when I would track my cycle, my addiction cycle, my relapse cycle, It began with, okay, I'm strong enough now. I can be on Grindr, but not of Grindr.

Right.

And what would happen would be, I would be okay. I would set some boundaries. I would, you know, put on, do some, some things that would kind of keep me safe. But then I might wake up at 3 AM and maybe I'm having a using dream. Or maybe I'm really horny, you know, and your defenses are down.

Sure.

Or if you like, for one thing, there's something I do, I don't drink anymore. But when I would take just one beer, one glass of wine, and I would have downloaded Grindr in a second, just subconsciously. That's the first thing I wanted to do when I have a drink is download Grindr and see who's on, you know. And so There's this, there's a balance between knowing you're strong enough to be on there and understanding how it can work and how insidious it can be when you're, when you are, have your, your inhibitions low.

I agree. And I think part of it too is, you know, just again, that transparency and just trying to be honest with ourselves. Like, why, why am I going on here? The same reason why You know, why am I driving past this person's house that's out of the way? But, you know, I used to score there or use there. It's, yeah, I just want to, I just want to go down this road. I'm tired of taking this normal route home from work. Let's just go this way. No harm.

Yeah.

No big deal. But, but, you know, there's a secret urge in there. Well, what, you know, what if that person's standing outside and maybe I could just give them, give them a wave and then they flag me over and then we get into a conversation and then they say, oh, would you like something? And I had no intention of using, but I've already kind of just set myself up like way before I even drove down that street just because, you know, there's almost like an unconscious premeditation is what I would maybe call it.

Yeah. Yes. And some men will use the excuse of exposure therapy. You know, like I want to be able to drive by their house and not use and feel good about myself. Which is fine, but when you're not ready for it, you're not ready for it.

No, I mean that that's that's fine if you have a fear of bridges and you want to practice maybe stepping on a bridge or trying to drive over a bridge. I don't know if I would mess with with putting yourself in in trigger environments with with relapse prevention. Right.

Get up on a ladder if you're afraid of heights.

Exactly.

Drive by the dealer's house.

No.

What would you say to family? friends who want to support a man coming out of a meth addiction who is trying to rebuild social community, what can they do and maybe not do in the process to support?

Yeah. I think what always works for me, especially even just getting to know my own clients, is to be curious. Like, rather than lecture or tell you should do this or you should do that, Help me understand. Tell me what you're going through. What is it like to wake up every day? Um, how, how does it feel to, to maybe not have these frequent hookups? Or how, how do you— how are you dealing with your emotions? Teach me. Teach me what it's like to, to go through sobriety and what that struggle is and what your needs are. Rather than to just— because I've seen this a lot, whether it's with clients or there's their loved ones, or even, you know, in my personal life, we— it comes from a place of love, but we tend, we tend to want to lecture and, and tell people, well, you should do this, and here's the best, you know, this is what the book says, or this is what your therapist says. Why aren't you doing that?

Yeah.

Um, more like, well, why, why is this? Why are you having a hard day today? What can I do for you? So curiosity, um, lack— trying to suspend judgments. And especially if, if folks don't understand meth or understand maybe some of the sexual components that have come up with, with meth use, or, oh my God, like, I can't believe that, you know, you hooked up with so many people, or, you know, how could you have all these orgies or all these—

Yeah.

Whatever. Um, no, no, we're not— we don't want to judge that. That, that's part and parcel of, of using sometimes with meth is that we get ourselves into You know, precarious situations sexually. So, so curiosity, non-judgment. I would also say acceptance is trying to practice acceptance, patience. People are going to potentially— people are going to have bad days. They're going to be on edge. They're going to be maybe a little irritable, a lot irritable. Yeah. Tearful. You know, especially in early recovery, if somebody's If somebody's just coming off of meth, the, you know, the mood cycles can be all over the place for, for a number of weeks. Anxiety can be all over the place. Um, so, so giving somebody pain, the whole, you mentioned the, the hallucinations or some, some psychosis that could happen.

Yeah.

You know, that could be scary for people to see. Like, you know, I'm, I'm afraid that somebody's standing in my room or I'm afraid, I'm afraid someone's breaking down my door or I'm not safe.

Yeah.

How can I help you feel safe? What do you need from me right now?

I love that. I love that. And, you know, oftentimes too, with gay men meth addicts, you have to have patience with your loved ones too, especially the ones who have a hard time even talking about gay sex.

Yeah.

You know, that's where the balance is for me. You know, I know it makes my mother uncomfortable. So I, it's better out than in, but sometimes it's better in because I'd kind of have to know what to share and what not to share. So there's an amount of patience you have to have with, with family too. But I love what you had to say about that and giving them space. That's lovely.

I look at, I look at our relationships with people as kind of like concentric rings. So like, you know, if, if you imagine like maybe 5, 6 different rings just getting bigger and bigger. You know, the center ring is me, and maybe possibly like the closest person in my life or the person that I trust the most, whether that's a loved one or a therapist. So maybe that loved one or that therapist knows all my sexual secrets and all my habits and triggers and like the darkest stuff that happened because there's no judgment, and maybe they understand some of that stuff. Maybe the next circle is, you know, closer friends or family, but maybe they don't need all those details.

Yeah.

And then, you know, we just kind of spiral out to like more acquaintances and just like general recovery principles that we don't, we don't share like all that, that deeper, darker stuff with, with everybody. So I, you know, I think we can pick and choose who knows like everything and who knows a little bit, who knows, um, bits and pieces.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Good. Great. All right. Well, what have I missed today? What would you— what do you wish I would have asked about?

I guess one thing that— and this was in my mind before we connected today— is that I was really surprised at the lack of some sort of cohesive source out there for the LGBT community in recovery, specifically meth addiction. You know, if, if, you know, if your audience is familiar with SAMHSA, the, um, the, the substance abuse mental health— I always forget the entire acronym, but it's the government administration, the government website that has resources for, for mental behavioral health and substance abuse. I mean, there's such a tremendous amount of resources on there for, for support, local, local support, federal support. There's not enough out there for, for the LGBTQ community. Yeah. Yeah, there's great things happening on local levels, but it's it's spotty. And I would just say if if anybody sees or notices a lack in their own community of that type of support, and you have the motivation or the wherewithal or the drive to want to start something, you know, go go to your your your your county drug and alcohol task force or or you know funding source that maybe could possibly help you. It's like okay, like maybe we could set up. A, um, an AA, NA, or, or MA meeting somewhere at a church or, you know, some sort of hall or facility.

Yeah.

Or a social group, um, a sober social group, a sports group, a hiking group. Assume, like we talked about, the social anxiety, but if people are, you know, extroverted and they love that, that stuff.

Yeah.

You know, nature, travel groups. Volunteering, a group that goes to see maybe you know a concert or a musical or a bus trip. Yeah, whatever it might be. You know, there's there's so many other ways to socialize and find support within the gay community that doesn't involve substance use. It's been a little bit harder since the pandemic, but you had mentioned Meetup, and you know, I think that there's other similar websites like that where you can get connected with people. And just sometimes we have to build it ourselves. Yeah.

Yeah.

Which I think—

yeah. Sorry, go ahead.

No, I just— there's a lot of super creative, intelligent people in our community who have the drive and wherewithal to kind of create these things. So if it doesn't exist, create it.

Yeah. And they love to throw parties. Like you said, love to party.

And a sober party can be just as fun. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I'm thinking about getting something going in Charlotte, possibly. But I would— I do want to mention, for online communities, if you're on Facebook, there's Gay and Sober. They have a Facebook page. It's gay sober men from around the world.

Nice.

They have a conference every year in New York City around Pride. There's a new group that I really, really recommend Queer Here, Here Queer Sober. And so Here Queer Sober is queer people, queer people, all queer people. And so it's a mixture of sober people from around the world. They're also having their own conference too soon. I'm going to Florida Roundup. There's a, you know, there's a, there's a north and the south. There's conferences that you can, that you can go to. You can get scholarships too as well. very easily, especially if it's your first time, could be a good way to meet. And they, you know, once you make a friend online, who knows, you know, and there's other ways that you can. And then when you get on these Facebook groups, you say what city you're from, and all of a sudden there's, oh, there's other men here in this city.

Yeah.

Maybe they're not doing activities, but there's a lot of men there. And I did some research for a client I have in Canada. And there was in his city was a group of gay men who have game night. They have, they go camping and they have skating and, you know, different things like that. They're not an organized group, but, you know, it was an opportunity for him to jump in on that. They were happy to have him.

Yeah, that's perfect. You know, the internet has allowed, you know, just going back to Grindr versus cruising in the old days. I mean, you know, the internet has allowed our community really to connect more than ever.

Yes.

So, and I'm glad you mentioned those resources because there's a lot out there on all platforms.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Even if you go to Instagram and you search the hashtag gay and sober, you come up with all the kinds of men celebrating their, you know, their sober anniversaries. And there's vacation spots that, you know, that men go to that are sober. vacation spots. So a lot of camping, you'd mentioned, you go to campgrounds. There's a lot of gay campgrounds I didn't even know about that, you know, that they say there, you know, there are actual weeks where it's sober week or sober weekend or whatever.

You know, I love— I've only been to one particular campground, but I love the campground community. I can't speak for all of them, but I think it's a great place to be yourself and enjoy what you want to enjoy. If, if, if you want to sit on somebody's, you know, porch or, or, or deck and crochet, or, you know, if, if you want to join the orgy down the hill, that's fine too. But no judgment either way. Both at the same time. Both at the same time. But there's no judgment either way. It's like everybody's free to be themselves and there's no pressure to be involved or, or, or take part in something that you don't want Right.

And isn't that what we all want in this community, is just to be able to be ourselves? I mean, that's what we're learning. That's what we all desire. Why is it so difficult?

That's what we fought— we've been fighting for. I mean, obviously since Stonewall, but even before then, right? And, and, but, but sometimes I think as a community, we sometimes lose sight of that, and we can become a little exclusionary or pretentious. And oh yeah, we got We got to remember to welcome, welcome all the colors and shades of the gay, the gay community.

Yes, yes, agreed. Hear, hear. Okay, Mr. Janeski, where can we find you? And we'll put all the links and everything in the show notes, but where can we find you for and what services specifically?

So I, I have 2 different websites. My, my gay, exclusively gay website is mensmeta-coachingandcounseling.com, meta being the, the poly word for, for self-compassion or self-love. So that's, that's the basis of that website is Men's Meta, self-love for men, but it's specific for gay men. And then you can also find me on www.pauljaneski.com. That's, that's my general therapy practice website.

Okay. Okay. Do you like one over the other?

Um, I— as, as much as I love working with gay men, and I would say maybe 60 to 70% of my caseload is gay men, I do like a little bit of variety and balance. And I, you know, I work with, with, you know, heterosexual folks and with, with anxiety and depression and grief and loss. And, um, I, I like having that balance. You know, it's easy to get burned out on any particular Yeah. So, but, but my passion is helping gay men with mental health and substance abuse.

Yeah. Yeah. So I know you had, I think I should have talked to you about this before we recorded, but I think you had a course that you launched or a, or an offering of some type.

I am preparing a course on healing gay shame.

Oh, okay.

And that's at some point, probably within the next 2 to 3 months. I'm going to offer that to maybe a group of 12 people who are looking to heal mostly from a place of internalized homophobia or negative narratives about, you know, being gay or feeling shame about being gay. That in turn, even people who say they feel comfortable in their sexuality, but sometimes that internalized homophobia voice can still kind of, you know, nip at our heels and get us into a negative headspace. Yeah.

Yeah. That's a whole other podcast topic entirely.

That's a whole other topic.

Yep.

If you ever want to talk about that, I'd be happy to come back.

Yeah, probably. I'm sure I'll have you back. Well, this was a really, really helpful conversation. Um, I really love the points that you brought out and, um, I'm going to probably use some of your clips and make sure that they're underscored, even if you don't listen to the podcast. that people hear them. So thank you very much for being here. I just want to say to you, if you're listening, um, that we do have a Facebook group of our own that you can connect to. Speaking of a place to connect, it's called The Aftermath. It's a Facebook group where you can ask questions, you can get support, you can find like-minded individuals. I usually pose a question about every day or every other day, something about You know, recovery challenges. If you're a family member, a loved one, you can join the family as well in the community, ask questions, ask for advice, get support. It's a small group right now, but we are growing. And as soon as the podcast goes live, by the time this airs, of course, we will be live, the group will be grown. If you want to submit a survey, again, go to our website, www. Aftermath.net. You can submit a question, you can submit a story, anything you want there along those lines. Or you can also leave a voicemail message and we will play some of them unless you ask us not to on the podcast and reply to them. The number is 704-559-9555. I'll put that in the show notes. You can call, leave a voicemail message. Please remember, if you like this, Even if you don't, like, share, rate the podcast to help the algorithm get the podcast in front of more people. There is not a podcast out there that I can find, and if there is, let me know, uh, addressing specifically, uh, issues for gay men addicted to or having had an addiction to crystal meth. So we really want to get this out there. We want to make the public at large more familiar and aware with what's going on with this addiction in our community. If you want to be a guest, or if you want to suggest a guest, just email aftermathpod@gmail.com. Ah, that's it, and we'll see you next time.

Thank you, Dallas.