EP 1:41 From Dark Portals to Divine Purpose: A Filmmaker's Recovery Journey

Hey, y'all. This episode is one you will want to earmark and listen to with intention. This isn't one that you're going to want to listen to in the background. I know some of y'all do that. I do it too. My conversation with Corey is important and impactful for anyone in crystal meth recovery at any stage. Corey is a living example of the core message that I send out every every day through every piece of my content. And that is, we are called to transmute our addiction experience into a vision of our full potentialized self. He lives recovery out loud, and I am so honored to know and feature a member of the queer community who is working so diligently to bring awareness and light to the epidemic of crystal meth among men who have sex with men. Listen, Corey is a shining example of the prophetic vision that I try so hard to get my clients to formulate and latch onto in order to move from where they are to where they want to be. If you don't have a vision, how do you know where you're going? Listen really intently to the way Corey refers to us— heroes. He is one of us and has stepped into his creative power to truly bring beauty from the ashes of addiction. His comments about God never letting you go, no matter how far and how hard you run, is the message we all need to hear. If you have a problem with God, use universe, or even just use potential. Your potential is waiting to be realized and will chase you, and every single person and every single circumstance in your life is here to catalyze and bring about that potential. Addiction and relapse and everything in between is also a part of that. It is all here. Pushing you toward self-actualization. And you can either push past addiction toward your potential, or it is going to pull you through. And that's where we get relapse, and that's where we get suffering. But the suffering is there to catalyze you. The pulling, the attention getting, the learning, the growth, all of it is part of you reaching your potential. So take a breath and know. That you are destined for greatness and that every single day you get closer. You can either allow it to pull or you can take the reins and power through. The choice is yours, and I pray that this episode will help you decide which one you want. Enjoy.

Biochemically, the most addictive substance if not the, then one of the most addictive substances, you know, known to man. And if you are able to overcome that, like, what can't you do? So, um, I just want to really just highlight how empowering it can be to overcome this thing, you know.

Welcome to the Aftermath Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create a repository of resources for current and past addicts, as well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermath. Trigger warning, this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey and you feel like you could be triggered by discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, please do not listen to this podcast. All right, now on with the show. Welcome back to the After Myth Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg. Glad you're here again. As you know what I'm going to say first, please rate and review the podcast if you are enjoying it. And apparently you are. We are, we are growing. We have higher downloads every month, um, compared to the past month, so we are continuing to grow. So I'm really happy to see that. Um, but help us get the podcast into the right hands. Um, if you know someone who would be interested or, or helped by the podcast, either a current crystal meth addict, a previous crystal meth addict, or a loved one of a crystal meth addict, please share this podcast with them. Share it on your post, your social media too, if you can. And if you do, tag me in it. Um, yes, so today I'm excited to talk about something a little different than we haven't really talked about yet on the podcast, and that's the creative process, um, using creativity in recovery. Um, you know, I push a lot, um, of journaling in, in my recovery plans and my clients. Um, but, you know, I'm, I'm expanding my mind here and realizing that journaling and writing is not the only way to get the noise out of your head. Um, so I'm excited to talk to Corey today. So Corey, could you introduce yourself for us, please? Sure.

Um, my name is Corey Portnecker. Um, I'm a writer and a filmmaker, and, um, yeah, I, um, I'm a person in recovery. And for the last 2 years, I've been really working on a couple different projects that have really come out of my experience with addiction and recovery. Uh, the first project that I've been working on is a, is a, uh, a concept for a television series that's about a gay crystal meth addict who ends up meeting God and finds out that he's a prophet. And it's a modern retelling of the Book of Jonah. And it's sort of connected to my own, my own experience in a way to sort of share with the world what the experience of being a gay crystal meth addict is like. I shot and directed and acted in a short film version of, of this concept. Obviously, the television series isn't created, but I, I, I've written a, a pilot episode. And also then I shot this short film, which is a— which is kind of like a teaser or proof of concept for, for that project. Um, and then I also this year wrote a feature screenplay script, um, that is, is also based on, on people I know who I've met in the, in the world of recovery. Um, that story is, is more, uh, about a, a, a guy who's in his 60s who lives through the AIDS epidemic, um, in New York City. Um, the ghosts of his dead friends return and, and try to get him to tell his life story to this young graphic novelist, um, and who wants to write a graphic novel about the AIDS epidemic in New York in the 1980s. And, and all the central characters in that film are also, are also, uh, in recovery from crystal meth addiction. So I'm really interested in telling stories about the people I know, the people I've met through my own experiences. I think that it's a community of people who have really lived through some of the most challenging issues that could face any human being.

Mm-hmm.

You know, we're talking about, you know, fatal illnesses here. and surviving them. And I think that we haven't seen stories about people from this community in TV and film. And I want to change that because I think the people that we know and the people who are in this community are, you know, our heroes in a lot of ways. So that's what I do. That's what I've been working on. Beyond that, I'm a musician. I've been You know, I'm a songwriter and I've played in bands. I'm an amateur painter, as you can see. I paint for fun. So creativity is a huge part of my life. And it's been an integral sort of piece of my recovery process too.

Lovely. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for helping to get the awareness out about this epidemic. Um, because you're right, it's not— we're not represented almost anywhere, and we're not represented in our own community either, as far as I'm concerned. It just doesn't seem like— just doesn't seem like it's a topic anyone wants to talk about. But you're— you're talking about it in a really bold way, because I've seen your short film, My Name Is Jonas. several times, and, um, you really don't hold anything back, you know. You really— I mean, no one could have written that that hadn't actually experienced it, you know, even down to the Grindr conversation that you show, which made me giggle, you know, the sup.

Yeah, yeah.

Sup, what's up, party and whatever. And, um, yeah, and so thank you for that. I really, really, really am excited to see this, this, this flourish for you and come to pass and what kind of difference it can make. And I've never heard anyone refer to us as heroes. And I really love that.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I think it's so easy to, to look at people people who, who have addiction, or of, you know, as, um, you know, at worst weak, you know, as weak or something, or, or maybe at best, you know, they have, you know, they're overcoming a disease or something. But like, you know, if you've, if you've been in the trenches of what addiction is really like, and you've, you know, you've had those, um, nights that never end, you've had the feelings that go along with the shame and the disappointment of all the, you know, the people you've impacted, and you're still able to pick yourself back up and get through that. I think that you— anyone who does that has learned certain lessons in life that are very powerful, you know. And not everyone has to go through that kind of, you know, those experiences. But if you have, and if you've gotten over it, or even if you haven't yet but you're getting over it, you, you have lessons that could help other people, you know.

Yeah.

And so I think that, you know, addicts, um, you know, people with addiction, um, we, we have gifts. We have whether insight, knowledge, experience, empathy, compassion, a way of seeing the world, a way of connecting to each other, an appreciation for spirit, for finding purpose in our lives. We have these gifts. And, it's wonderful to just sort of recover and get back on track and get your life back, but there's more. We have this ability to impart our experiences and what we've learned to, I think, our broader culture. And, society, we probably live in one of the most addicted times in human history. Yeah. Because of our phones, or you know because of drugs, you know, or sex and pornography and shopping and ba ba da ba da. You know it's like an endless, endless. We have so much crap in our society that we can get compulsive and addicted towards. And so I think people who have who have gone through probably one of the most challenging addictions there is, you know, crystal meth addiction. Um, if you've gotten through that, then you know something about, about how to navigate this world. And I think, um, I think if you can express that, it's pretty—

you're—

that's, that's heroic.

Yes, yes. Thank you, thank you. Because this is the message, this is the, the mission of this podcast too, and everything that I do, is that if you, you're a gay— if you've been— if you're a gay man and you've been addicted to this drug It, to me, it's like you've, you've walked through a secret portal into a world that's hidden in plain sight all around. And you've been to the dark side, right? And, and you've seen parts of yourself that you would never have seen before. And if you can stay away from that, even just if you've been sober for one week, that's an accomplishment. And you are a hero. And you, it's kind of like, I don't wanna diminish or compare what we've been through to a war veteran, but it's almost the same in terms of when you meet someone else who's been in this addiction and they've experienced this dark world, you immediately bond because you know, you each know exactly what you've faced and what it means to get out. And so there's something to be said. I love the fact that to look at yourself as a hero, even if you've been— no matter how long you've been away from it, if you can stay away from it. Because like you said, you, you've got this digital drug dealer here all the time, all with you. And so that's the sub-addiction too. And it— you can access this drug just like Instacart, in any amount, any moment you want, anywhere. And so this is different. It's different.

Yeah, I think, you know, here, I mean, whether or not hero is the exact right term, I mean, I think, you know, I think it's right. But something that someone told me once years ago was, you know, someone said to me, you know, you beat crystal meth addiction, you can do anything.

Yeah.

And I remember that really hit me, like, whoa, like, that's, that's a really empowering idea. You know, like, this is, you know, this is an affliction that is like probably, you know, biochemically the most addictive substance, if not the, then one of the most addictive substances, you know, known to man. And, and if you are able to overcome that, like, what can't you do? So, um, I just want to really just highlight how empowering it can be to overcome this thing, you know? Um, so yeah.

Yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you. So I've, I, I've been reading a lot about, like I said, I'm trying to come up with different alternatives to journaling, um, because journaling just does not resonate with everybody. Um, it resonates with me, but that does not mean, you know, it resonates with, with other crystal meth addicts. And what I have found too is that when we, when we've been traumatized as gay men and we, we disconnect from ourselves, we split a lot in early childhood and into our life, and then we go into this addiction, we're disconnected with our bodies. And a lot of times we also don't understand how to articulate our emotions. In, in recovery, especially early recovery. And what I'm reading about art therapy, music therapy, is that it is a way to transcend words. And it's a way to bring out the emotions and the feelings and, and really express yourself in a whole new way that, that is really— is, is seeing a lot of success with gay men in crystal meth addiction, along with motivational interviewing. So motivational interviewing is to really, really tie into the positives, anchor into your strengths. Um, and so the two together have been, have been seeing a lot of success. So I'm really interested in what you have done. How, how would you describe, um, how that has worked for you in your recovery? And what is your creative process as well?

Yeah, um, I think it's I think it's such an interesting, um, approach to, to, to treatment. I mean, to, to look at, um, art therapy or music therapy, um, or journaling or just, you know, expressive communication as a way to process, um, you know, difficult emotions or, or, or not difficult emotions, just emotions. Um, you know, for me, I, I was always drawn to creative pursuits ever since I was a kid. You know, like, I feel like my creativity, like, for everyone, I think it's a very innate component of the human experience. You know, I think expression is very primal. It's like we— it's what human beings do. We express, right? You know, whether it's through our language or words or through painting or through sound. or through performance or through movement and body and dance. It's like, this is not something we invented. This is innate, right? This is part of the human condition is to express. So, as a kid, I was always very in tune with my imagination. I loved playing with action figures as a kid and creating these worlds. This was you know, we didn't have— I mean, we did have video games, but like, this is a long time ago.

Atari, right?

Yeah, well, I had a Nintendo, but, uh—

Oh, okay.

I'm not that old.

You're not— it was— you're not older than me. I had Atari.

Um, but yeah, I was always really just, you know, super into, um, playing and imagination. And then, you know, even writing as a kid, you know, when I was in elementary school, I remember like writing like stories and then I started to take piano lessons when I was a kid. I loved playing piano and I loved learning how to play pop music, contemporary music that was on the radio as opposed to classical music. I was just always drawn to that. I got a guitar, I started to write songs. I did a lot of high school theater. And then, as I got into my college years, like I said, I started to write music and I joined a band. And I was in a kind of like a country rock band in Boston, which was really fun. And, and, you know, so like, my, my need to be creative and express was always, it was always there. And then when, you know, my life, you know, took a turn, you know, when, when my addiction you know, kind of came into my life, you know, I was still creating during that time, you know, like, and so, you know, I was going through this really bewildering, intense period, you know, when you're using, you know, like you said, it's a very dark place. And you're, you know, you're up all night, and you're meeting all kinds of interesting people or weird people, and you're having experiences that normal people aren't having. And it's like you have entered, like you said, like you've stepped through a portal and you're in a different world. You're not really on planet Earth anymore. You are, but not really. And, um, you know, for me, like, I, I, I was just starting to, like, create work around what I was experiencing. And so, you know, it was actually during, you know, my addiction when I started to paint. And, um, you know, I, I, I just, I, I wanted to do something, like, tangible and physical. And, um, you know, because music is sort of like, you know, it's sound and writing is, you know, words, but I wanted to, to to try creating something with my hands. And so, I started to paint when I was in my addiction and it was pretty messy during that time. But yeah, so engaging creatively with what I was experiencing during my addiction was definitely part of one of the things I did during that time. And then, you know, coming out of my addiction, you know, I really credit the creative process with getting me over the hump and breaking the cycle that I was in because, you know, I had, you know, I have, I had had, you know, experience getting sober before, you know, years ago. And then I did it again, and this time was much harder. And a lot of the tools that I was relying on weren't working. And I was really stuck. I was really, really stuck. And when I got the idea to start writing My Name Is Jonas, this, you know, this story that I'm working on, it became clear to me that like, hey, like everything that I've experienced in my addiction If I can make something out of that, that is, is a great piece of art that is true to my experience, and that could help people, that like, that is something worth, like, getting sober for. Like, that is something because like, that's my dream. Like, my dream has always been to like, I want to make something awesome. Like something that's going to be like, hey, like Corey did that. That is his thing. And when I realized, like, hey, like, my experience as, like, a gay kid growing up, normal quote-unquote childhood, trying to become a musician, finding myself, you know, in this world of meth addiction in New York City, and having this journey throughout that experience, if I can turn that into this, like, cool, like, spiritual epic about a young gay kid who finds, you know, who this character who ends up just thinking he's a prophet, but he is. If I can make that, that's a really cool story. But, I know that will never, never happen if I don't put down the drug. So, it's one or the other here. It's like you can either go after your dreams or you can stay stuck. And, that inspired me to be like, you know what, going after my dreams is actually what I want more than to stay stuck. So, um, it got me, you know, it got me over the hump. And, um, so yeah, so I don't know if I answered the question, but it's, you know, like, like the, the, the creative— the creative impulse was stronger than, um, the impulse to just, you know, stay stuck.

Mm-hmm. One of the findings in the studies with art and music therapy is an increase in the ability to visualize, to, to imagine what's, what's next. And it seems like that may have been something that came easier for you because you had this creative mind. And I just wanted to say to the listeners, There's a reason why I have— and this is not a plug for my program, but I'm just saying— I have what's called a prophetic vision. And some of my clients roll their eyes at it as if it's busywork. But if you can visualize and really use your 5 senses and visualize a dream— what is next for me after crystal meth, and how can I use the experience of my addiction You know, to transmute it into something new and beautiful. That can't— that carries you through that hump. You're exactly what you're saying here is, how do you know? How do you move forward if you don't know where you're going? And so having that vision is so important. So I'm so glad that you said that because it ties right into where a lot of you guys are stuck, is that you've never experienced— some of you have never experienced life without an without meth addiction. You've been doing it since a teenager or whatever, and you don't know where you're going. But if you can hang on to a vision— and maybe, maybe creativity is the, the key here, drawing or listening. There's, there's something about music too that evokes— it transcends any kind of words, right? And it evokes these emotions that you can't explain, um, and can take you into a state where you can visualize. what's next. So that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that.

Yeah. And I would just add, I think I wouldn't have typically been a person to say this, but I am now. I think manifesting is real. I think, I don't know why, or we could debate why it's real, maybe psychologically, because if you really visualize something and believe it, then every decision you make will be in service of that decision and you will get closer to the thing that you want. Maybe that's the reason. Maybe there's something a bit more spiritual and mystical about manifesting. Whatever the reason is, I think it's real. It's been true in my life that if I fully visualize and want and go for something, I mean, look, it doesn't mean I'm going to get everything I want. But, um, I've found that, um, yeah, exactly what you said, that just having a clear vision for, um, an objective or a goal, you know, is, is, is a, is, is essential to getting it.

Yeah. And feeling the emotion of it, you know, and, and I, I believe in all the woo-woo stuff, so I'll just go ahead and tell you that. Me too. But emotion is energy in motion. Right? And so if you can feel the emotion, and it's what I tell— this is what I tell my clients, is use your 5 senses. Hear a conversation in the future, feel what it feels like, see the scenery, right? Hear and taste everything. Like, just get in it as if it's happening and revisit that over and over. And there is something about that, that the curriculum happens and things move about and it comes to pass. So, and, and I, I— this is my personal experience too. This is why I'm sitting here, you know. It was just— this is why I'm sitting here right now.

Yeah. And, you know, and it's like, I think looking at my own, my own experience and the work I've been doing the last 2 years, you know, writing about, you know, um, both my experience in addiction for My Name Is Jonas, and then also some of the, the, the people that I've met in, in the recovery world on my other project, um, You know, I think for a long time, you know, like in years past when I was, you know, in recovery, I kind of looked back at my addiction and was just kind of like, you know, I don't want to look at that. Like, that was just this thing that I went through that was kind of embarrassing and shameful and challenging and horrible. And I— now that I'm not there, I just don't want everyone to look back again. And, and that, that's fine. But I think the difference this time around is like, I'm like, no, you know, that what I went through, like that, that's my story. Like that was my destiny. Like that, like I went through something that most people don't go through. Like, you know, not a lot of people, you know, have recovered or been through a crystal meth addiction.

Right.

It's, you know, so it's, you know, it is a specific experience. And so rather than, trying to, to just get away from it, uh, to look at it and, and use that as inspiration for creating something is— it's honoring what, you know, what I went through, and it's, and it's, and it's making something out of it that makes me feel like it was not all for nothing. And hopefully it's something that will help other people. And not just crystal meth addicts, but people who love them, families of addicts, you know, society at large, you know, like we need to understand like, what is it like to be an addict? Like there are so many people who have some kind of an addiction or mental illness, you know? So like, it's sort of a responsibility that now I almost see it as a responsibility. Like if you've been through this and you are, and you want to make something out of it, like, do it, you know? Like, talk about it, create something out of it, represent it in your painting and your drawing and your music and your dance, you know? Like, this is real stuff, and it doesn't get grittier and more honest and raw, you know? Like, you want to tell a cool story that stands out, like, you've got a good one if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're in this world.

It's exactly right. It's exactly right. I have to double-click on what you said about honoring the experience. And, you know, it's difficult for someone who's in it right now and who's fighting relapse to honor it, right? And so I have to be real careful about, you know, not honoring their experience as well. But at the same time, I want— I just wish You could know if you're out, if you're in this addiction, that there is— I believe there's a purpose for it, you know. And I believe that you can extract that purpose and transmute it and honor the experience and turn it into something, something beautiful and something that does help other people, but also helps yourself. You know, there's relationships, especially with my children, that I don't think I would— there's no way we would have the depth of relationships that we have right now if it hadn't been for my meth addiction. It just, it was a crucible. It was a time to break everything down and rebuild. And so it's easy to say that, you know, after, but if you're in it, if it gives you any type of hope, any type of perception shift on what you're going through, I hope that it does. So I want to ask, what gave you the idea for Jonas, My Name Is Jonas? And are you— do you like biblical stories? Is this a story that you grew up as a fan of or what?

Yeah, so this— so My Name Is Jonas came about in a very interesting way. I, I was near sort of the end of my addiction. And I was, I had really just sort of gotten this sense that like the universe, God, whatever you want to call it, was like giving me all these signs like, dude, you got to give it up. Like, it's time to get off this train. This train is not going anywhere.

It goes round and round. Yeah.

Like, dude, stop. Um, but I was a very stubborn, you know, very, very stubborn person. And, um, anyway, uh, you know, I was, I was in a hotel room, which is, I guess, a place where people go. Um, and, um, I, you know, I, I met someone, um, and, uh, they came over and to do whatever we do. And before any of that happened, we just, we just started talking. And I casually mentioned to this person that I felt like I'd been having kind of a spiritual experience recently. And, and this person said, you know, I really think that you would benefit from reading the Book of Jonah. And I, I'm— I was raised Jewish. Um, but sort of very surfacey. Um, so no, I was not, I'm not, you know, I wasn't like a, a religious person who had a deep knowledge of biblical stories. I had heard of Jonah. I knew something about a whale. That was kind of the extent of what I, what I knew. And, um, the next day after that person told me that I should read that book, I actually went into, went to a treatment center.

Mm-hmm.

And before going, I had a copy of, um, of the Bible, which I'd gotten at my bar mitzvah. Which I hadn't probably opened up in, you know, 30 years, whatever it was. And I brought it with me. And I was, you know, I got to this crappy-ass detox center in New Jersey. And I read the story. And I was like, you know, and I don't know if people out there know the Book of Jonah, but like, it's not a story that ends well for Jonah. So it's, you know, it's, it's, it's a very confusing, weird story about this guy who finds out God comes to him and tells him that he's a prophet. And Jonah says— and then he commands Jonah to go to this big city, Nineveh, which is like the New York City of the Assyrian Empire, and tell the people to repent. Otherwise, God is going to destroy the city in 40 days. And Jonah is like, no, I don't want to do that. Like, why, why would I want to do that? So Jonah tries to run away. So he runs away, he gets on the ship. And God sends this storm to, to crash the ship to prevent Jonah from escaping. And that's what they— that, you know, so the storm comes, the sailors on the ship, uh, figure out that the reason for the storm is that Jonah is there. Jonah admits that he's running away from God. The sailors are like, what are you, nuts? Like, we can't— it's God, you can't run away from God. So they throw Jonah off the ship. This— the storm stops. Jonah gets rescued by this whale. He, he gets spit back out onto land. God comes back to Jonah and tells him, go to Nineveh and save the city. Jonah this time does it. He, he goes back to the city, he, he prophesies, he sees the city repents, God saves the city. And then Jonah gets very angry with God for not destroying the city. And God says, Jonah, like, what the hell is wrong with you, man? Like, you know, you wanted me to destroy this city. Like, you're, you're, you're, you're a you are a deeply disturbed individual.

Yeah.

So anyway, um, that's, that's the Cliff Notes version of the Book of Jonah. But anyway, I read this book and then it sort of hit me like a thunderbolt. I was like, wait a minute, this is like a perfect framework of telling a modern story about a gay crystal meth addict, about a person who has a mission in life Who has a calling in life who runs away. Addiction has been called a running away disease. It's something— I see it in my own life. There were— I'd always wanted to do certain things with my life and I, like we all do, I probably ran away from a lot of things that I should have faced.

Yeah.

particularly around my sexuality and feeling, you know, you know, there's so much to unpack there, right?

Yeah.

So the— this character of Jonah as a, as a person who God has given a gift, has given a calling, but he can't do it and he tries to run away. I thought, this is an amazing, this is an amazing framework to tell, like, my, you know, a story that's similar to my own life. And so I thought, you know, especially, you know, when it comes to meth addiction and a lot of the psychosis that people have, you know, it's not uncommon to think maybe that you are a prophet, to think that maybe you have these special abilities. I myself, there was a period where I thought that I was seeing into the future. And, and, you know, these things happen. And I thought, you know, this is a really interesting thing. So I, that's when I started, you know, I was in a detox center when I started to write this story. And, um, that's kind of the origin story of My Name Is Jonas. And then, um, it sort of expanded, and I thought, you know, um, the other thing that's interesting about the Book of Jonah, um, unlike all the other books in the, the, the prophetic, uh, stories in the Bible, um, which are more about what the prophets are, are saying, like what their message is, the Book of Jonah is about the life of the prophet. It's about what it's like for him to be a prophet and how it's— and how it's hard and how he doesn't want to do it. So the story I'm writing, My Name Is Jonas, is about what would it be like for, you know, a prophet living today. How, you know, how would this character, um, exist in our world? What message would he have? How would he try to run away from his mission in life? And so, um, yeah, so, so, so no, I'm not—

I'm—

I was not, you know, I was never into Bible stories. But when I read this story, I was like, holy shit, this is actually like— this story has a lot to say about what it's like to be a human being today, to be me today. And I saw myself in the story, and I got really excited because it kind of rekindled this interest that I have in my own, you know, faith tradition. And the next project that I worked on, which I mentioned earlier, this feature screenplay about a long-term AIDS survivor and the ghosts of his friends coming back, is based on another figure from the Bible whose name was Enoch. The film I wrote is called Enoch. And that was a story about this guy named Enoch who never died. He never died.

Yeah.

He saw the end of the world. And then he wrote this book about what he saw called the Book of Enoch. And I thought the same thing. I said, hey, that's a really cool framework to talk about a modern character who never died, an AIDS survivor.

Wow.

Who saw the end of his world, essentially the gay apocalypse. And in my film, he has— he has to tell his story to this kid who wants to write a book about it, which will become sort of this modern Book of Enoch. So I'm super excited because it's like, you know, I was, you know, I was— my whole life was like, you know, at the time was like, I'm like living in hotel rooms looking out of peepholes, you know, like freaking out. And now I'm in this place where I am reconnecting to like my Jewish legend past, this inheritance that I have, and all these stories from Hebrew legend. And I'm trying to tell them as these modern queer stories.

Hmm.

It's really exciting. And it's deeply connected to my recovery journey.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. As you were writing this story and connecting, did you learn anything? What did you learn about yourself?

Yeah. I think that I think that I've learned to have a lot of compassion for myself. That, you know, the Book of Jonah is really, you know, it's, it's a lot of things, but one of the things I think that strikes me most about that story is that it is showing a God that is unwilling to let this guy go.

Hmm.

That God is like, I know you want to run away, I know you don't want to face your calling. I know you don't want to do this, but I'm not going to let you get away. And there's something incredibly beautiful about that because to me what that says is, you know, and, and, and, and, you know, I, I believe in God, um, And what it says to me is that God could see a person who's suffering, who doesn't fit in, who isn't like the others, who wants to run away, and will say, I'm with you. I, I see your struggle. I see why this is hard for you. But I believe in you. I made you, and I want you to— I want you to do the thing that you're meant to do.

Wow.

I'm not going to let you get away. And it's really an incredibly beautiful story about almost a friendship where one person is saying, like, I'm not going to let you get away. I'm not going to lose you. I'm here with you and I'm going to get you back on track. It makes me have a lot of compassion for Jonah. It makes me have a lot of compassion for God. It makes me see it's the story of these 2 people, God, Jonah, who are just— they're not getting there. But one of them, God, is saying, I'm not going to let it go. And it makes me think of addiction, and it makes me think of the impact that addiction has on so many people's lives and our friends and our family and, and the strain in the relationship that it produces. So, um, what it really taught me was to have compassion for myself, to realize that I think, I think that, you know, God knows that it's not easy to be a gay person, to be a drug addict, to be a person who maybe doesn't fit in, who doesn't check all the boxes, who is a feeling, sensitive, creative person living in modern times, and that it's okay to struggle. Um, but to know that there's 100% a place for us here And that we're needed here and that God is not willing to let us just run away. No, no, no. You have to come back. You have to do the thing you're meant to do, um, because it's part of your responsibility as a human being here. Um, and to know that, you know, God's got your back. Um, I think it's important for, especially for queer people to reclaim the relationship we have with, with whatever spiritual beliefs we have. Um, these are tools for us that were given to us— our creativity, our, our music, our painting, our writing, our drawing, our dance. You know, I don't think it's an accident that, um, so many queer people are some of the greatest artists and creative thinkers in society. We have a gift. We were given a gift. Drug addiction takes that gift away, but those gifts are the things that can can can can bring us back.

Wow! Sorry. Hmm. Very moving. Very moving. Thank you for that. I hope that you will rewind this and listen to that again. Let me collect myself for a minute. Oh, okay. Yeah, thank you for that.

Sure.

And I was going to ask, what would you— what do you want us to— what message would you want us to be left with after watching? But I think you just said it very, very clearly. So thank you. Yeah, I'm not sure where to go next. Besides, I just want to— I did want to compliment you on your acting in My Name Is Jonas.

Thank you.

The cinematography, the detail you went into to represent us and what it's like Um, wow, I'm sorry. Um, what it's like to be us. So I appreciate that a lot, and I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the film, and I just can't wait to see what happens next. And you've been traveling the country showing this, showing your film, right? Or at least the, the preview of it. And you've won some awards, right?

Yeah, so, um, so The short film, as I mentioned, is, is a, is a proof of concept for what I hope will become a television series. That's the goal. Um, and, um, the short film is playing at film festivals around the country, a lot of queer film festivals. So we were at the San Francisco Queer Film Festival, the Out South Queer Film Festival in North Carolina. We put it in the Twin Cities Jewish Film Festival. Played at a, a new festival in New York City called the Global Drama Project Short Film Festival, where I Was honored with the best performance for my short film, which was wow. Yeah, nice.

Well, you did. You're so good. I mean, you you really you really you really get into that character, and I guess it's you, right? Sort of in a way.

Well, I mean, I have you know I've yeah I've done I've done research. I've done yeah yeah okay um but yeah um so so yeah the short film you know is is playing right now. You know, I invite, if you're, you know, the weird thing with short films is that if you're in the festival circuit, that you can't really make them public for public viewing. But I would really love to share this with the world more broadly soon. As soon as the festival circuit is over, I think I may just put it online. You know, like, I don't really think that the film is, it's not gonna make me any money. It's not like I'm gonna get distributed for this thing.

Yeah.

But I want people to see it. Particularly in the recovery community, um, to see this film, you know, um, and, and, and get behind it. Because, you know, I'm, I'm an emerging writer and filmmaker, you know. I don't have, uh, connections in Hollywood, um, you know. I, I'm, I'm, I'm building this thing with my hands. I'm trying to get the story out there, um, and I think the short film is a good way to whet people's appetite for who this character is, this Jonas character, this modern Jonah. Um, and, um, I, I have a website that's, uh, if I can, can I plug my website for the—

Of course, plug whatever you want.

It's, uh, mynameisjonasfilm.com. Um, and you can't watch— the film is on there, but you need a password to watch it. But you can email me and I'll give you the password, um, if you, if you want to watch it. Um, so I want people to see it. I want it to get out there. Um, and, um, yeah, yeah.

And okay, I guess my question too is, I know this— I'm hoping this interview will spark some creativity in the listeners. Um, and I know in talking to gay meth addicts all day long, every day, that There's so many of us who do want to turn our stories into something, you know, at least write them, right? I'm working on a book myself, um, that's half anecdotal, half, you know, self-help. Um, but what, what would you— what advice would you give us to get started? Like, I know that the, the, the thought of writing a book or the— or a screenplay or anything like that is— can be overwhelming, but How do you get started in that? And what would you say to someone if they asked?

Yeah, I would say, like, you know, like I said earlier on, I think, you know, if I look back to like what I was into when I was a kid, you know, I was into telling stories. I was really into like, you know, even before I was writing, I feel like I was making stories with my action figures, you know, like, so like, I know there are other people out there who just, you know, they love music, or there's people who love dance, or there's people who love to draw, or paint, you know, whatever sort of is like in you, like start there, you know. And, you know, I, I mean, I, I don't know if I could give advice, but I would just say like for me, um, looking to my own experience with addiction and, and recovery and spirit and facing it and writing about it, um, it just, it just, it just starts to come out. And so if you're struggling with addiction, if you're struggling with life in recovery, creating something out of that suffering is like, it's just what we do as human beings.

Yeah.

And so just start, you know, I think there's no pressure. I mean, this is, it's just creativity, it's just expression. It's just, it's meant to be. fun and healing. And, you know, and, and, um, you know, the other— I would just say the, the other element that I hope comes across in the work I'm doing is, is a sense of humor too, you know. Um, this doesn't all have to be so serious.

That's right.

Um, even though, sure, sure, this is a life and death, um, uh, affliction, but, um, I also I also try to have a lightness about what you're doing, what I'm doing, and try to have some fun, and, and that helps too.

Yeah, yeah, I'm all about adding some levity to it, you know, especially among each other.

Yeah, and, um, and you know, it's funny, you know, like the Book of Jonah, like it's, it's, it's actually, it's, it's a funny story. There's elements of humor in there that I didn't really pick up on until I, you know, I really kind of delved deep into, into a lot of the, of what that story is about. But there's some funny stuff in there too. And like, it's, you know, um, our, our lives, you know, we need some humor too to get through this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, my children were little, they watched VeggieTales, and VeggieTales did a whole movie About Jonah.

It's so funny you say that because when I first started working on this, I like Googled, I was like, what are some movies that are out there about Jonah? Because I was like, I hope someone hasn't already done this. And like the first thing that came up was like VeggieTales.

VeggieTales.

I'm good. This is like, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna turn this into a, into a gay crystal meth story. Slightly different than VeggieTales.

Yeah. Yeah, it's actually good. It's a good cartoon. It made them go bankrupt, but it was a good cartoon. But, and I ended up naming my son Jonah.

Oh, no way.

Yeah.

Oh, that's amazing. That's so cool.

Yeah. Yeah. My pastor said, don't name him that. Don't you know that's going to curse him? He's going to be stubborn and, you know, all this kind of stuff. And he's nothing like, like that.

That's great.

Um, yeah. Um, yeah. And the other, the other thing I want to touch on too is I want to thank you for the next project because, you know, meth and HIV go hand in hand. And we had Mark S. King on the, the podcast. Uh, do you know Mark?

I do.

He's a— okay. He's, um, an HIV writer for POZ, uh, magazine. And, um, he's, he has several books out. My Fabulous Disease, talking— he's, you know, he's a, he's a huge HIV advocate. So maybe I could introduce you to, um, It's funny, the networking that happens, because I met you through Kevin Hire, who was also on the podcast talking about employment after addiction. You introduced me to Terrence Crawford, so we did— he was on the podcast, uh, with Dr. Fawcett. Yeah, so it's a small world, really.

It is. And, and there's like— and again, like, that's the thing I'll say is like, you know, um, I met, you know, in that world of, of crystal meth addiction, like Some really talented people, people who are doing really cool things. And so, like again, I just want to impress upon you know everyone that like you know we all have these gifts and you know we should use them. And you know we're we're a powerful community of people.

So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know it's it's okay to to be happy with thing with parts of yourself that did come out. of a crystal meth addiction too, you know, because like you said, you started painting during your, your addiction. A lot of people get these creative streaks, um, and also have spiritual experiences, which we could probably have a whole other podcast on, on that, um, because we're— a lot of us are afraid to say that. We're afraid to— the stigma is that you were crazy or we're in psychosis, but we're afraid to talk about the spiritual aspect of a crystal meth high, and there is one.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm glad, I'm glad you, you brought that up because that's something I'm really, really interested in. And, you know, I know that there's a lot of, um, discussion and science out there right now around, you know, the, um, the way that, you know, drugs, particularly hallucinogens, can, you know, foster creative or spiritual experiences. And I think crystal meth is probably no different. And, um, you know, one of the, one of the, you know, in my own experiences, you know, sure, I had a lot of, um, things that I guess, you know, I could chalk up to just, um, hallucination or delusion. Um, but I also think that there's a lot of learning that can happen and insight and inexplicable mystery that can come out of deeply emotional experiences. I don't, you know, I certainly don't claim to know what any of it is or what it means. I have my suspicions, but there is a, you know, look, we live in a very— we live in a world that does not really tolerate a lot of mystical discussion. I think we are, you know, science and rationality and empiricism, you know, have become sort of our our God. And if we cannot see something or explain it through facts and figures, then we don't think it's real. I think that, you know, if creativity can teach us anything, it's that there is something ineffable that's out there, that there is mystery in our world. world if we're willing to open our eyes and our ears and listen and see it. Um, it's not in our face, and that's for a reason. Um, and, you know, when I was researching My Name Is Jonas, I came upon a writer, very famous Jewish philosopher and teacher named Abraham Joshua Heschel, who was, uh, in addition to being like a very, um, serious, uh, religious writer, was also a civil rights activist in the 1960s, marched with Martin Luther King Jr. And I read, uh, one of his, one of his books, which is called The Prophets. There's a whole chapter on that's called Prophecy and Psychosis.

Mm-hmm.

And he, and he looks at, um, the the distinguishing factors between what we would call psychosis and what, uh, in religious texts people would view as prophecy. And so I think there's a long tradition in human civilization about looking to, to people who are quote unquote crazy as actually having, uh, a divinely inspired insight or message for the people. Um, he has a quote that says, the mind of the prophet, like the mind of a psychotic, seems to live in a realm different from, from, from most of us, or something like that. I'm paraphrasing. But, but, but, but, but the difference is, is important. And, and, and, um, I think what he's talking about is that, look, there is a tradition in Western civilization of, of people, of prophets who we would today throw into psych wards. We would put these people into psych wards. We would say that they're schizophrenic. We would say that they're crazy. We would say that what they are talking about is totally bananas. Uh, but there was a time and place in human civilization where people listened to some of them and what they had to say and were able to draw important insights and lessons and teachings. Now, I'm not saying every single crazy person, quote unquote crazy person, is a prophet. For of course not. But, um, we have moved so far away from allowing anything, um, mystical into our lives. And I, you know, one of the, the, the ideas that I want to explore in My Name Is Jonas is, you know, is that a mistake? You know, what if there was a prophet among us today? Would we listen to them? Um, and I'm sure that a lot of crystal meth addicts who've experienced psychosis probably have Interesting opinions about this.

Yeah, yes, yeah, yes, I can account for that personally. I think, you know, I hear from men a lot who— they're, they're suffering in silence because they're questioning, am I crazy or not? You know, because what I experienced was so real that it has a visceral— it's viscerally etched into them, but they're afraid to share it with anyone because they don't want to be called crazy or psychotic, right? And their experience is being invalidated so much that, you know, I, I just tell them, you know, if you can, if you can let go of whether or not it's real or not and just explore it, you know, write it down, experience it. And like you're saying, don't take it for what it is, but draw conclusions from it, maybe. You know what?

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yeah.

I do. And I think like, you know, for me, one of the, um, one of the things that helped me was when I started to think about, well, whatever it is I'm experiencing, what is it trying to tell me? What's the message that is in this experience? And for me, it was sort of like, like I had mentioned earlier, like, it's time to get off the train. Like, this is not working for you.

Yeah.

Um, I'm not a psychiatrist, right? You know, I'm not— I don't know, I don't know what's happening on a, um, you know, a biochemical level in the brain. But, um, I think that In, you know, in my own experience, when I've been highly emotional, and not just, you know, with addiction, but in life in general, when I've been having really strong emotional responses, when I am really connected to something important in my life, I, you know, if I'm, if I am open to receiving messages, if I'm open to receiving direction from the universe, from spirit, from God, I find that I can receive that. And, it doesn't have to be this crazy white light mystical thing, but it's like a, no, this is— if you believe as I do, we are having a spiritual experience, all of us. Right. Yes. We are all spirit. And, part of that arrangement is we're not alone. there is, um, you know, there's, there's an energy, a force that's out there that I think wants the best. Um, and, you know, and like I said earlier, you know, like the Book of Jonah is, is a story about the concern that God has for someone who's not doing well.

Yeah.

And, um, and I think a lot of addicts can relate to what that feels like. And to know that, you know, whether it's a— it's— you're having a sort of supernatural experience or a psychotic experience or whatever it is that you're experiencing, like, I think, you know, I think there's, there's a force out there that wants us to, to, to be well and to be healthy, um, and to listen to that.

Yeah. Yes, agreed, agreed. And, you know, what I have found— and I'm not saying go out and do crystal meth and and listen for messages. But, you know, the thing about crystal meth is it stills the mind, quiets the mind, and you're one— you have a one, you know, your funnel. It's almost like a tunnel vision. Now, yes, most of us get— maybe we get glued to Grindr or porn for days or whatever. But for me, in my experiences, when I was not focused on that, my mind was so still I was able to receive some messages. It's kind of like when you've meditated for so long and you're, you're still, you know, it kind of is a shortcut to that in certain doses, right? Um, and I experienced that myself. Um, and like you said, you can hear in, in what I, I had visions. I had visions of me. There was this, all this mud and muck, and there was just one arm reaching out of it, and it was mine. And I kept seeing that, you know, and then eventually I saw a hand grasping mine, you know. And so I took that as, I'm on my way out of this. I know I am. Somebody's gonna help. Somebody's helping me.

Um, I think it's so important to legitimize those experiences.

Yeah.

You know, because, yeah, you know, we again, like, we live in this society that is obsessed with explaining things away. It's like, oh well, that's just this, that's just that, that's just this, that's just Right. And, um, we are missing the point, which is whatever experience you're having, there's, there's a message in that experience.

Yeah.

I don't care if your brain is creating it or if it's coming from God. Who cares?

That's right.

You're having a legitimate experience. Um, explore it.

Yeah, explore it. Yeah, thank you. Okay, so what did I miss today? What have I not asked you that you wish I had have or thought that I would have?

Oh man, this has been like such a great conversation. I've enjoyed this so much.

Good, me too.

I feel like we covered a lot. And you know, I'm— yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, okay. Well, my AI assistant Claude tells me that I don't press enough and ask questions enough. And so I always ask that at the end to try to make sure sure I didn't cover. But I put the transcript in Claude and I say, you know, give me a— criticize me, tell me what I should do better as a podcast host. And he really lets me have it.

Wow.

But the—

yeah, Claude. We all need a Claude in our lives.

We all need a Claude. I just see him as like just smoking a cigarette, just like in the corner, just staring at me. But he— yeah, it said that I miss important topics sometimes. And so anyway, I always ask that at the end just to make sure I miss anything.

You know what I'll say? If there's anyone out there who, um, who wants to connect with me, who wants to talk about, um, whatever you're working on creatively, um, if you have, um, ideas about things you want to make, if you are interested in learning more about the projects that I'm working on, um, I'm, I'm, I really want to get these stories out there. As I mentioned, I am doing this. I'm trying to— I'm figuring this world out myself. So if you know anyone who might be able to help, hit me up. Um, I want to get these stories out there.

Yeah, yeah, great. Thank you for that. That's very kind, very generous. And you're going to hear from, from people. I know. Um, I have one in mind right now, so I'm going to connect you with— yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay, well, that's it for this week, guys. Thank you. Um, I'd like you to please rewind this and watch it and listen to it over, or watch it. You know, you can watch us on YouTube, you can listen on whatever platform you listen to podcasts on, you can interact, which I'd love for you to do, mostly on YouTube. You can have a, you know, let's start a thread there. If you're going to start and have a comment or question, um, do it there. And we do have a Facebook group, it's called The Aftermath Podcast or The Aftermath Community, something like that. If you put in Aftermath, you're going to find it. Um, on Facebook. And we kind of— I try to get questions in there, uh, a lot, uh, almost daily, but just discussions and support for one another. So you can connect with us there as well. We do have a website, aftermath.net. And don't forget, there's always a supplementary study guide with every podcast episode, and that link will be in the show notes. With that being said, I will see you all next week.