EP 1:44: Sober Fetish and Kink: Healing the Sexual Template with Ralf

Hey y'all, this is a powerful episode I know is going to change the way recovery looks for many men who have engaged in chemsex. Chems and sex get intertwined, and I hear from you guys every single day asking, will I ever enjoy or even have sex again post-meth? The answer is you 1,000% can, and you will enjoy sex even more than any false dopamine high you got from crystal. The sober fetish and kink scene is a lifesaver if you ask me. The trust, intimacy, relationship building, connection, acceptance— it has what is sorely missing in the mainstream LGBTQ community today. If you are looking for sexual and arousal healing, this would be the place to begin dipping your toe. And pay close attention to Ralph's story. He was told by the mainstream recovery community that he couldn't engage in his fetishes and kinks anymore. He wouldn't be able to stay sober. Someone somewhere made up that rule based on their own fear and projecting their own experience. If Ralph had blindly accepted this guidance, he wouldn't be having the global impact that he's having today. To me, Ralph represents empowerment, resilience, and commitment to what aligns with him. He didn't compromise his identity. He rewrote the rules to stay true to himself. And I am so impressed with him. And I invite you to use his example in your own recovery journey. Are you denying yourself for the sake of someone else's rules? All right, enjoy the episode. I don't know how to ask this, but how do I know what I'm into? Is it just trial and error? Is it just trying on different things?

I guess it's like if you're watching porn, and it's the slightly kinky porn, and it gets you hard. Well, then the mind—

Welcome to the Aftermath Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create a repository of resources for current and past addicts, as well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermath. Trigger warning, this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, Please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey and you feel like you could be triggered by discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, please do not listen to this podcast. All right, now on with the show. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. So glad that you're here. And I just wanna say, you know what, I am so grateful For you listening to this podcast, and I'm so grateful for the feedback that I'm getting. Um, I'm grateful that I went ahead and pushed myself to start this podcast because lately, I mean, it's kind of an emotional day for me because of the recent DMs I've been getting from guys who, they are isolated, alone, Trying to figure out this meth recovery thing on their own, and sometimes the only thing they have to pull them back from a craving is turning on this podcast. It's just so surreal to me that to read that, and it's an honor to bring this to you. And thank you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for watching. And we're going to full speed ahead continue with the podcast. No matter what. So that being said, make sure you rate and review the podcast, please. And please know, I want to make sure that everybody— because I say this at the end and I want to start saying it at the beginning— that every episode has a supplemental study guide that comes out with the episode. If you look in the show notes, there's a link there you can follow it, whether it's on Spotify, Apple, or YouTube, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. There's also a mailing list that you can get on if you want, if you're interested in Getting on that mailing list, just let me know. The the study guide goes out automatically the morning the podcast drops, and also I will also send other newsletters out through that mailing list. Those newsletters aren't just bullshit; they're actually working newsletters with actionable exercises, journal prompts, reflective questions, which is what you also get with the study guide. So I just want to make sure that you know that there are plenty of free. resources that I'm desperately trying to get out there for everyone to use to keep you occupied. You know, sometimes the best way to avoid relapse when it's 3 in the morning and you're horny and you think you want to go party is use me as a cockblock. Okay, that's what I'm— that's what I'm going to start calling myself. Dr. Dallas Bragg, the biggest cockblock there is. That being said, today we're getting kinky and we're getting fetishy, if that's a word. Really, really excited. And unfortunately, I did not have any leather or kink gear to wear today. I am wearing a cock ring, I will tell you that. That's the only— that is the, the, the, uh, most kinky thing that I own is a cock ring. So, uh, I did put that on. So yay me. We're not going to show that though. We're not gonna— I'm not gonna prove it. So I have an expert here today, Ralph. And Ralph, could you please introduce yourself to us?

Hi, my name is Ralph. I am from London, originally from Denmark, so one of those Vikings you hear about.

Hmm.

I'm sober and clear-headed for over 7 years. My drug of choice was methadone and crystal meth and GHB. I am a recovering chemsex addict. Um, I'm into kink, I'm into fetish, I'm into rubber, leather, skinhead gear, you name it. If it's masculine, I'll be there.

Mm-hmm.

That's kind of what I, I like. I'm also, uh, the creator of, uh, a Facebook group called Real Clear Fetish, which is, uh, a group for bi, gay, trans, and queer men where they can post if they're, um, sober or in recovery or just choose not to drink. They don't have to be in recovery. But it's all about like sober sex and wanted to engage with that. And from that spurred also a podcast I created in 2020, which is the Real Clear Fetish Talks Real Clear Play podcast, which is just me having a guest on talking about sobriety or different expressions of kink, uh, with, um, a sober angle to it.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love it. Thank you. Thank you for what you're doing. What you're doing is so important for this demographic that is listening to this podcast. Because I will say, I've said this before on the podcast many times, the number one inhibitor, the number one question that I get is, how can I, how can I enjoy sex again? How could I ever like sober sex after what I've experienced in chemsex, you know, because it just— there's no way I'm going to enjoy it again, right? And so that to me has been the biggest challenge of getting, uh, sober and in recovery from this drug is, you know, as you know, meth and sex fuse together and you have one with the other, and, and the, the sex you have on it is just this elevated experience. So what you're doing is answering the call for so, so many men. And so I just want to say first, thank you for that very much. And I'm very happy to have you on here.

Thank you very much. I, I sometimes when people tell me that, I get a little bit like, yeah, I'm— I, I guess, um, and it has to be said, Real Clear Fetish was created purely out of my own need to get back to sex because there was nothing else there. I was left kind of like when I was doing recovery meetings or other people kind of advising me to give all this up.

Yes.

Where it's like, okay, so there's no one dealing with this, at least not in Europe, because we don't really have fetish recovery meetings in Europe. Slowly coming, but very, very little. So it was just like, okay, what can I do? Well, I'll create my own path back. So I created Real Clear Fetish purely on selfish reasons to get my kit on and get, get off with someone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. The advice that's out there that I hear from, from guys saying, you know, you have to give all that up. You can't fist, be fisted, piss, you know, you know, you can't do these things anymore if you're going to be in recovery. And so I do, I will say with my clients, I do say to take a detox from it in the beginning. But I also say take a detox from porn, masturbation, and those things in the very beginning, just to kind of separate the two, clear your head, and then in a way of unfusing them together. But I guess my first question, I want to get into your story too. But my first question is, why do you think when we do crystal meth and we're in chemsex, why do we associate fetish and kink with it?

And, well, crystal meth use, and especially like injecting, became a fetish for me almost. That, yes, part of the act is like, it was almost more important than the kink in itself. But I also kind of like when, when I talk to people who are in early recovery, and they're talking to like, oh, I really want to do sex, and I still want to do the kink and so on. My first question is always, did you find kink in crystal methadone? Or did you have it before?

Mm-hmm.

Because it's a hell of a lot easier to get back to what you had before.

Not—

I'm not saying it's easy. It's not bloody easy. But it's easier to get back to something you already had. Halfway's already there. But if you literally found BDSM or leather or rubber in crystal meth addiction, then you have to kind of sit down and talk to yourself and find out, is this me? Or is it this crystal meth that's done this, created this illusion of a fetish that I might be into? Or was it just something you went along with whilst you were high?

Wow. That is a powerful question right there. And what does it take to decipher that?

For me, definitely, there's things I've left behind where it's just not good for my mental health, where I felt more used. And well, we're talking about kink, it is about using, but there are differences between healthy using and Um, and being told off or abused in a sexual sense.

Right.

And you kind of have to figure out what works for you when you come into recovery. Um, for me, like you said, uh, it took having a break. I wouldn't say 100% break, um, but I think for the first 2 years, the only time I engaged with my fetish when I came into recovery was when I was relapsing. Because it was just so connected to my fetish life. So I always kind of see the first 2 years of recovery, I didn't really, at least not healthily, engage with my fetish. And it took a long time to disconnect the two. And, and it kind of just happened gradually. And I remember the first time where I knew it was desk disconnected was me feeling my leather jeans whilst I had them on without thinking about what drug I would be taking later. But I was just enjoying the moment of wearing the gear. That took approximately 2 years for me, and that was through recovery programs, therapy, all sorts of stuff. Also, I joined, uh, the London Gay Men's Chorus, which—

Hmm.

All of a sudden I had an outlet for my creativity. So for me, my recovery journey was very much a amalgamation of all sorts of stuff I did, and I just didn't stop. I just like if I can add something that would help me, I would add it. Do it.

So I like to make lists of like an action plan for people. You detox from it, then you. started to check out every route you could. It sounds like you had recovery groups, therapy, whatever else you could think of that might help.

Yeah.

Um, you— and then, and you also had a creative outlet, something to get the energy moving, it sounds like, through your body. And 2 years it took you. So when you put on your leather gear, your brain associated that immediately with drug use. Is that Is that right?

Yes. That was combined. And I've been doing kink since I was 22. I just turned 40 in October.

Okay.

And when I kind of almost— because I was being guided to give it up, it was breaking my heart.

Hmm.

It's, yes, the sex aspect is fun and so on. But Kink and fetish is a lifestyle. And I love the community. And I love what— how it makes me feel. Doesn't always have to be about getting your rocks off. It can also be the most social and intimate thing you can do with people, just stand around in your gear feeling good about yourself.

Hmm.

And all of a sudden, I found myself just like, oh shit, I can't do that. I'm— I It almost felt like being cut off from what you loved. And it's been a part of me for so long. So, and you kind of go, oh shit, I did this to myself. And now I have this handicap and I can't get back to what I want.

Wow. Yeah, the shame, right? I mean, there's shame. What is kink shame? Is a phrase, right? Kink shame.

It took me a long time to get— because like coming out gay is one thing, right? But coming out kinky as well. Yeah, all other dynamic. And then all of a sudden, it's like, oh shit, I also have to come out as an addict now. And can I even get my kink back? Will I ever enjoy this healthily. I'm just like, I'm 7 years sober. Does it come with challenges sometimes? Absolutely fucking lutely.

Yeah.

I, I even now I can get triggered and have to kind of go, okay, let's stop. Let's move on. Let's try to get my thinking a different area.

Hmm.

I don't never know when that happens. That's the thing. It just surprises you sometimes.

Wow.

I know when using thoughts appear is when I'm stressed, because my brain is going, it's like, oh, we know how to fix that. So even after 7 years, that still happens. And I just have to be really honest when it happens. And that's okay. I think, at least in early recovery, I felt so much shame around like using dreams or using thoughts. Where now I'm like, okay, that happened. Talk to a friend about it. Don't let it fester. Um, and then move on.

Wow. Thank you. Yes. So something else Ralph is saying is you can't— so many of us are expecting things to just quit, like the triggers, the cravings. And again, we've said this on the podcast before. For me, 6, 6 and a half years almost, and I still get triggered because of the needle. I still get triggered from that, seeing my veins at the gym or whatever, right? Going to the doctor and getting my blood drawn is still an ordeal, right? But the difference is, is that you create tools around it, right? You— and like you're saying, you're honest. The honesty part is what you're saying, paying attention, observing it, and talking to a friend. And it sounds like It's easier for you to talk to a friend because you've built a community here, right?

I, I have friends who have seen me at my worst with track marks and raving like a lunatic. Um, and those friendships stuck around even from when I was kind of crying wolf. I won't do it again. And then I end up doing it again and again and again. So I'm lucky in that aspect that I didn't have friends that cut me off. I never got to that point. I did have close calls with friends where I was like, if you do it again, we're not friends anymore.

Yeah.

And to be honest, I look back and kind of go, yeah, you're completely right. And I fully get what you're saying. I was a right asshole. So it's just about I feel like I've gotten to a point now. I don't. I try not look looking back and go, oh, that was horrible, and I regret all my actions and so on. There's a reason we start taking drugs. They're fun, and that is what like. And sometimes I was undiagnosed with ADHD. I never really. I just thought I was a bit odd and. Some things would trigger me and stuff like that. I've also realized since then I have childhood PTSD, a whole plethora of weird brain things going on, and alcohol and drugs was just my escape. How to cope with being in a social situation with other people when when I kind of got sober and I started realizing all those things is like oh maybe maybe this thing and maybe this thing and maybe this thing. and getting the diagnosis. I know it doesn't fix anything, but it just reconfirms why some of the stuff I was doing was happening. It was self-medicating.

Yeah.

And now then I kind of have a better understanding of why sometimes I have extreme low moods with my ADHD. I now understand that is just my brain kind of going, okay, you've been running up here mentally, like adrenaline for a week and just happy, happy, happy, happy. And all of a sudden your brain's like, yep, you need to relax now. So we're just gonna make you depressed.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I know now, I now know what that is. And I try to be okay when that happens. Talk to people when it does happen. Um, and also try to remind myself it's not something that's gonna last forever.

Yes.

Um, and I will crawl out of that pit quite quickly. It lasts maybe like a couple of days and then I'm fine again.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so it's the clarity of sobriety has definitely given me some gifts of understanding my brain and what goes on.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. Thank you for saying that. So important. And it makes such a big difference when we become the observer and we're not carried away by those external behaviors, the ups and the downs.

Mm-hmm.

And we— and like you're saying, it's the important part to me, the difference-making is when we know it's not permanent. You know, we tend to catastrophize and we get into a depression and then all of a sudden I'm always depressed, I'm going to be depressed forever. But if you are standing on the outside of it, observing it in, in the way that you're doing, and your, your diagnosis has helped you feel seen and validated and heard, right? And now you can observe that, okay, this is happening, but I'm still in control. And I, you know, and I love that. Thank you for saying that. It's perfect.

Yeah, it's, it's I'm quite honest that because I suffer with quite severe anxiety, social anxiety and stuff like that, and I'm also on citalopram for that anxiety, and I'm quite grateful for having that to kind of balance out some of my anxiety because I can become quite a mess if, if I let myself go that far.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but I also know that it gives me space to learn other coping mechanisms. Um, like singing has been such a big part of my life always.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but when I moved to London in 2009, partying and drug taking became more important. So all my creativity went out the window from 2009 till '17 when I became sober.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and ever since then, I've just like things after things as things with like creativity stuff I've done. I think my biggest thing I did when I became sober was I tapped into writing poetry, which I've always kind of looked at poetry as like, no, this is people standing on a stage saying weird words and it doesn't make sense. Um, I'm sure I always kind of like when people want to read some of the stuff I've written. I kind of go, yeah, can you see the date on there? Yeah, that's a snapshot of where my brain was at on that day.

Yeah.

If you read some of these poems, no, no, I'm not suicidal, but that is where my brain was at at that time, moment in time.

Yeah. Yeah.

I don't write as much as I used to. I maybe write like 3, 4 poems a year. And it's mainly because I'm okay, because I write out of distress to kind of make sense of what goes on in my brain. So me not writing is actually a good thing. But then again, I pour my creativity into a lot of other things as well.

So, well, I would say you have to be fairly creative to be in this scene that you're in and this, this community that you're in. Because this is— if you look at— we're going to put all of your links, of course, in the show notes. If you look at your Instagram, Instagram page. I was— that, you know, you are— there's so many different looks you have. Like, I saw you as— looks like a police officer, then you have a cowboy hat on, you know, then you have shorts on, you know. And so I was, you know, it's— you've got to be creative somewhat. And, and then to— from what I know of, and we can ask this question too because we did have, uh, Steve— you had Steve, Sober Steve, on your podcast, and we had him on with another gentleman, Daddy Dale. And what I learned was there is a scene, it's in that you, you have the role-playing going on a lot of times in this scene. And so to me, it's like, it takes so much creativity to make this happen. So much more than just getting naked and fucking in a bed, you know, it seems, it seems like you have to be really You have to be imaginative, I think.

I think that it's good with a healthy imagination, that's for sure. And it does take a lot of mental energy to put on a scene being in, in the role of what this person wants out of it. I always kind of like, as a dom or as a submissive, as a submissive, you kind of I'm not downplaying that it can be quite hard work to be submissive as well, but as the Dom, you have to be on all the time. You don't really stop, and you kind of have to like think, think, think, think. Um, I've now realized in the last 2 years, when I'm submissive, my ADHD brain goes quiet, which is a, a new feature I've unlocked.

I love that.

But it kind of makes sense that when you don't have to think about anything else than actually just focusing on the sir.

Oh, okay.

It kind of goes quiet. Um, but that's also why I find a lot of submissives I play with, they're normally in high-powered roles work-wise or home life-wise, and then they just want to switch off when they're in that space, just like, this is what you're being told. But yeah, it does require a lot of mental energy. And I've— because I go through swings and roundabouts, especially in wintertime, I like seasonal depression and stuff like that. I'm quite— does happen. On occasion, I'll go, if I've organized the scene, it's like, do you know what? I'm not there. It's not gonna work. I can't force this.

Yeah.

in drug addiction, it's like, oh, I'll just do another line or another slam and then just go on with it, even if you're not mentally prepared to do it. Um, I think the power of saying no is amazing.

Yeah.

Which I've learned. Wow.

Yeah. Boundaries. Right. Boundaries and speaking your boundaries. That's such a foreign word to us addicts, I think. Um, you know, nobody says no when you're high on meth. Why would you? You know? Um, interesting. I want to have a whole podcast about boundaries for sure. Um, before we get into— I want to talk more about that. Back to your story. In 2 years, you could put on your gear. I don't want to take too many rabbit trails, but I do want to address like leather, rubber, skinhead, you know, what is all that? You're gonna have to talk to me like I'm a 2-year-old here because I don't—

That's fine. That's fine. Well, it's, it's just different styles of gear. You can, you can see behind me, that's my open closet with all my leathers.

Yes.

And leather is definitely my first love. That is, okay, that is where I feel comfortable. That is my comfort zone. That is my comfort blanket. But rubber, it's just, there's communities within the fetish community. So you have people who are just pure rubber, you have people who are skinhead gear, you have people who are pure leather. And then you have the pups and you have the sports gear.

Right.

It goes on and on and on and on. And then within like the leather community, there can be sub-communities in there as well. With like, what type of style do you have? Do you wear police uniforms? Do you wear more punky leather, stuff like that? So it's all about self-expression and what you want to bring to it. I would more categorize myself, I'm not very, I wouldn't say I'm a sheep, but I'm, I'm, I like the leather clone look with like the mustache, the cap, a little bit like if you watch Police Academy, Blue Oyster Bar.

Yeah. Um, it's drag.

It's all drag, really.

Drag. Yeah. It's all drag. Interesting. There was a question I had about that, but I can't remember right now. Okay, so yes. Oh, skinhead gear. That was the question I was gonna ask. What is skinhead gear? What does that mean?

Well, you have bleached jeans, Fred Perry polos. I know, I know skinhead gear has maybe become less acceptable, I guess, because it's been taken on by neo-Nazis and stuff like that.

Yes. Yeah.

But when I talk about skinhead gear, I'm thinking about the 1960s UK version of skinhead, which was just an offshoot of the punk culture.

Okay.

Unfortunately, been appropriated by horrible, horrible people.

Yeah.

So it's, it's I just like the look. Um, so it's, it's, and there's so many gay skinheads here. It's much more acceptable in England anyway, because it's still associated with a punk thing where if you go to the States, it's probably slightly different.

Yeah. Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I, I, I'm not familiar with it, but I'm also way out of touch. So, um, so I'm not sure. Okay. So if obviously you had some of this interest before your addiction, right? What about us that got into some fetishes? I think, and we may have touched on this already, but how do we know, I guess, in trying to— we know we want to be kinky, we want to, we know we want to be, we want to explore fetishes. I don't know how to ask this, but how do I know what I'm into? Is it just trial and error? Is it just trying on different things?

I guess it's like, if you're watching porn, and it's the slightly kinky porn, and it gets you hard, well, then there might be something there. I think a lot of stuff is trial and error. It's kind of like, does this make you feel good? Is, is having a big strong leatherman standing above you calling you the F-slur, does that get you hard? Um, if it does, brilliant, fine, great, go with that. Find the people you trust to explore that side of you.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I know, I think When I started on kink, I knew what I liked quite quickly, but I've also expanded on that. And also with, like, with leather, sometimes I go through a period where I'm not so interested in leather. I think it comes seasonal, if you can kind of like that. But if you're curious about something, just explore it. And if you find out it's not for you, that's also okay.

Mm-hmm.

That's the wonderful thing with sex. It's supposed to be fun and scary and messy. And there's not, there's not really anything. There's not, there's not a wrong way to do sex. Mm-hmm. It's just about being true to yourself and keeping yourself safe and finding good play partners. Um, so if you wanna explore, um, I can give you the little goods on the next episode of my podcast. I had someone on that's into clown fetish.

Hmm.

Interesting. Which was very interesting to me. Nothing I've ever wanted to explore. And, and I'm not scared of clowns, but I, it was, it's, it's a weird one because now that I've met this person and he was sitting in his red nose and it was like, he was very cute and His outfit was quite fun. And, but I'm not sure if it would be for me. But I'm also very much like, I'm also a very curious person. So it's like, oh, let's give it a go. See, see if it works. If it works, fine. If it doesn't, great. Then I've tried.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you, you mentioned earlier being used, right, as could be a meth trigger, but it could be what you like. How do we know the difference between— and maybe this is a question you can't answer— what is trauma? Like, you know, so for instance, I, I have clients who figured out they want to be degraded.

Mm-hmm.

Because their dad degraded them. So they're reliving— and I've had this happen. Like, I, when I got into crystal meth, I was 39. So I immediately became a daddy, whether I fucking wanted to be a daddy or not. And I would have these guys, young boys, who, you know, it— I could fill in the blanks every time. I want to be choked. I want to be hit. I want to be spit on. You know, all that stuff. But then sometimes it crossed over into them wanting me to say how disappointed I am in them and all this other stuff that As I'm looking at him, I'm like, this is your trauma here. Like, whatever, whatever turn-on I had before is well gone because I'm going to turn the light on and just start counseling you no matter how high I am. We gotta talk through this. I mean, how do we know the difference?

It's a really hard one, to be honest. It's like when I look into Like when I'm a dominant and I dominate a sub and I'm calling them names and so on, I think I know where that comes from. I was bullied horrendously in school, so I take on the role of the bully, quotation marks, um, to kind of reclaim some of the power.

Ah.

I also, like you mentioned, the situation of them wanting to be degraded and almost treated like how their dad was. But that might, for them, be the scenario of, do you know what? I'm inflicting this trauma on myself. I'm taking the power back.

Oh.

By reliving it. Um, I'm not saying it's healthy or unhealthy. I, I, I fully agree. Maybe also talk with a therapist about it. No, no, therapy. Everyone should be in therapy anyway. Um, Uh, and all their therapists should have therapists.

And so, yes.

Um, so yes, it's, it's, it's a power dynamic. It's sometimes when you can relive that trauma in a safe environment, you can maybe, maybe get some resolution from it, if that makes sense. I also came from a domestic violence childhood where my mom got beaten up. And I'm sure some of the kinks I have comes from seeing that. But that's a whole, like, a Pandora's box that's very dangerous to open sometimes. And sometimes just having the safe space to relive those traumas by choice can be quite therapeutic. That's just my 10 cents. I'm no professional.

I don't—

I'm not a therapist. But that's How I would interpret it if someone— yeah, it's that.

Yeah, thank you for that because you've just kind of helped me shift my perspective a little bit about this. When you are being a Domme and like you said, you're reclaiming your past, so it is kind of from trauma but in a, in a positive way. Yeah, it's a reclamation here. Yeah. And, and it is a scene too. You're not actually being mean to this person.

No, no, it's all right. Consensual. Consensual, right? Consent is always boundaries and consent is—

yeah.

Like, and then you can, if you want to do consent, non-consent scenes, then you, you discuss that.

But you're giving consent to be non— to have non-consent.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's, it's It's such a weird one when we're talking about non-consent scenes where you're talking about like someone wants to be bullied or talked down to, but they're consenting to that to create a scene of non-consent.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And in that, in that way, it can almost be quite powerful to give that power away, and it can be quite therapeutic. I've Been submissive in scenes where afterward I'm just mentally tired, but almost relaxed, kind of go, I've given this power over to this person and they've taken me through this journey.

Hmm.

And when, when you do stuff like that, aftercare is very important. So it's, it's, you can kind of push, push, push, but then you also have to pull back. Yeah, that is a very good dom if they do that. If they just push, push, push and don't pull you back in, no, no, don't play with them.

Okay. Okay, good. I don't think I'll— I don't, I don't know what I am. I know I don't like to be told what to do in any scenario, whether it's pretend or not.

Me neither. I don't know. No, no, no.

So I guess if I was a sub, if I set the rules, maybe it would be different.

Oh, no, no, no, it's very, very like, I always kind of jokingly, it's like the sub is the one who has the power.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Always. It's the— they have the power.

Interesting.

And that's, that's what makes it fun because they have the power to stop the scene, but they choose not to.

I love this. Yeah. Yeah. So I would say if I, if I were to ask what's the biggest difference between a sober kink session and a meth-induced kink fetish session? Consent and boundaries. Is that, is that the major difference? I mean, because I, you know, you have open consent when you're in chemsex, for— I think pretty much, right? And boundaries, what boundaries? We have—

we're—

we want to push them, push the boundaries, push them out. That's how we end up in all this, you know. really, really dark stuff. Would you say that's the biggest difference?

I would say so. It's— I was just like, when I look back, some of the kink stuff I did on meth, not that kinky, really. It's just a lot of, a lot of ass and harnesses and messy people on their phones. Yes. A lot of scrolling.

Yes.

So at the end of the day, it doesn't really happen that much, like the downright kinky sex.

That's right.

I think we— I think we think we're really kinky at that time.

Yeah.

But not really. When it comes down to it, it's, it's, it's always like when I talk to people in early recovery, it's like, oh no, I'm not gonna get the same kind of high. I'm not gonna get the same kind of sex. And I kind of go, you're right.

Good.

It's not gonna be the same. You can't have a scene that lasts 4 or 5 days. It just doesn't work. That's not— if you have a session with someone and it lasts maybe like 2, 3 hours, that's a good session. That's a good, fun session. And that's what it's supposed to be. It's not a marathon.

Yeah.

Where we spend years thinking it is. And all of a sudden having to kind of navigate sober sex afterwards, it's terrifying and it's exposing and it's awkward. And you need to be allowed to be awkward. You need to be allowed to go, do you know what, this is not working. Where in meth addiction, you just take more and move on to the next person if it's not working.

Right, right. Which is why you're on your phone anyway. Because yeah, you're going to the next one anyway, right?

Yeah. So it's— I find sober sex can be quite rewarding, but it can also be horribly awkward. Yeah, if it doesn't work. But that's human nature. If you have chemistry, you have chemistry. If you don't, you don't. Yeah, you can't force chemistry. We took chemicals to make chemistry.

Right, right, right. Yes, because meth is the ultimate bypass. You bypass the pleasantries, you bypass getting to know somebody, you bypass getting turned on, you bypass the foreplay, you just, you bypass dealing with your emotions. It's just a bypass.

Yes.

In all regards. So the, the act of getting to know someone in this community, fetish kink community, The act of establishing trust, that's intimacy right there, isn't it? That's real intimacy.

Intimacy for me is having a sub over. He gives his will over to me and can build up a flogging or paddling session with him, and he takes it for me. He almost gets to a point of Breaking for me. That is, and then afterwards, just cuddling up, being so proud that he did this for me. You don't do that in sex. It's for some people who who are not into this may not understand that kind of intimacy. But but also this there's also the afterglow of just. like normal penetration sex. You're kind of lying there in a sweaty mess, and it's just that you've been combined with each other, you've been intertwined with each other. Um, and that's almost the same you get from flogging someone or something like that. And that's the afterglow, the, the almost that afterwards when you're kind of done and you kind of start laughing afterwards because we were just so loud and messy and And so on, and you can get all that on chems. You don't get that. You you never come, so there's not really. You're more likely to chafe your cock before you come. So yeah, I I love. I can be I can be silly and giggle during sex as well. That oh this this went wrong.

Ha ha ha ha.

Kind of thing. And it should be allowed. It should be allowed to be sometimes a bit ridiculous. I'm fully aware how I look when I'm in full leather getup. It's like I'm wearing cow skin, I look like a leather couch. Do you want to sit on me? Um, and I can see why someone who's not into this finds Almost, it's almost absurd. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's such an integral part of me, but I'm also very mindful of it needs to be fun.

Yeah.

Sex needs to be fun. It's not serious. It's supposed to be playful. This is our version of playtime and it needs to be fun.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Fun, consent, boundaries, and safety.

Yeah.

To feel safe, I think, is what all of us are looking for.

Oh, absolutely. It's, it's, it's weird when I talk to people who are either trying to become sober or in early recovery, and it's like, I did— I was just missing connection.

Yeah.

And one thing you don't get in drug taking is connection.

Well, you get a false connection.

You get a false connection, a sense of connection, a sense of community maybe. Um, and that's one of the reasons I always kind of revert back when I try to explain why I might have done drugs and so on. It's just loneliness. And, and I, I, you probably mentioned this on your podcast before, Is, is about like the, the experiment of Rat Park, and it's just how powerful that experiment is with having them with laced water and non-laced water. But yeah, it's, it's, it's such an important little experiment and just shows you why connection is so important. And, and kink can be such a connection, uh, because you kind of meet other people who are like-minded and like sex and the more kinky or the more darker side of sex. Um, but it's, it's just about finding the right people to do it with and feeling safe and connected. And, um, yeah, it's, it's— that was one of the reasons it was so heartbreaking for me when people told me in early recovery, oh, you have to give it up.

Yeah.

And I was just like, Nope, nope, nope, nope, I'm not having that.

Yeah, that's a message for us, for the listeners, whether it be kink or not. When people tell you you have to do something, that you have to do this to be successfully recovered, I encourage you to always ask questions. Always ask yourself and feel what it feels like inside. And if it doesn't feel right and aligned, then investigate that.

Mm-hmm.

But we have this tendency, we're so tender and we're so vulnerable in the beginning and we want to do it right, that we take people's opinions as the fact, especially if they come to us and they've been without the substance for a certain amount of time. Which to me, I'm sorry, does not automatically mean that they know what's best for me in my recovery. And here is a prime example, trying to take Ralph's whole, like, such a large part of his identity away to tell him he can't do that. And now look at what you've done.

Mm-hmm.

You have taken something and overwritten it and made it something beautiful. And something that I think to me, everything you're describing, if you zoom out from this, take away flogging and dom/sub, whatever, you're talking about establishing intimacy, trust, safety, being comfortable in your own skin. These are things that we never had a lot of time. This is because we never had that, we went into drugs. And you're giving a platform here for us to establish these things that we never had in our whole life, what we were searching for. This to me is the antidote for addiction. So there's my little rant.

No, no, no, you're completely right. And it was, I think one of the biggest epiphanies I had when I became sober is, oh, you can say no, you can leave the party if you don't want to be there.

Yes.

The amount of times I've been at a fetish party, and I'm I'm just forcing myself to stay and I'm having the worst time because mentally I'm just not there. And this is before I was diagnosed and I kind of just thought this was what all brains did and stuff like that. But the power of saying, fuck it, I'm gonna stay in, so joyful.

Yeah.

And I was like, how, why did it take me 10 years to figure that one out?

Yeah. Yeah.

And, and also be okay with not being okay and vocalizing that.

Yeah.

Um, and it's so important. So important.

Yes. Yes. Saying no, because a lot of us as well who are addicts are also people pleasers. Right. And we don't, we don't want to hurt someone's feelings. You know, which is why this ghosting thing is so big in this community too, by the way. Um, but saying no, speaking your truth, speaking your truth and standing up for and, and actually knowing what it is you want and don't want, such a huge part of recovery too. And, and in this, in this world you're describing, this kink and fetish community, that's a big part of it. So there's so many benefits I'm seeing here. Um, so if Let's say I wanted to get into it. So one of the things I wanted to mention too is earlier you were saying what gets you hard, you know, when you watch porn.

Yeah.

For those, for those of you out there that I hear me say take a break from porn and try mindful masturbation, this is also something that you get an idea for what different kinks and fetishes there are and mindfully masturbate about it and see what gets you going. Right.

The biggest instrument for masturbating is your brain.

Yeah.

Oh, the things you can explore in there. It's— I have fantasies, but not every fantasy needs to be lived out.

Thank you. Yes, thank you for saying that. Perfect.

And that's fine. And I always like when I'm talking to someone online, it's like, I want to do this and you— I wanted you to do this to me. And I'm just like, Go and have a wank and then come back and talk to me. That might be the best because you might feel differently afterwards. Because it feels like you're a little bit like horned up right now.

Yeah.

Which is fine. And it's, it's fun and it's beautiful when you can get to that point. But I'm also like, you're telling me these things, but I don't think you're into them. I think you're just riding a horn high here, which is fine. That is perfectly fine. But like, have a wank and then we'll talk.

Yeah, I love that.

And then we can kind of negotiate what would be fun for you. Well, also, like, in, in when I started engaging with recovery services— this is before I became sober— where I was just trying to do harm reduction instead, um, and they were like, well, if you want to disconnect it, just maybe just wear it at home by yourself, wear your leather jeans, stuff like that, and just Have a self-pleasure evening.

Okay.

And that's, that's also a way of disconnecting things. It's just like, wear the stuff that might trigger you in a safe environment. And just see how you feel with it.

Yeah.

When it comes to kink, I think also one of the things when people say, oh, I can't become sober, because then I can't do fisting. Yes, that is a myth.

Yeah.

Will it take time to relearn it? Oh, absolutely. And you need really good play partners and you need really patient with it. Um, but it is possible. Mm-hmm. If you could do it, if you could do it high, you can do it sober.

Right, right.

It might just take a little bit longer and it might also be more intense sober.

I would say so. I would assume so. I'll get back to fisting in a second. The, the importance here, I keep hearing it, of finding someone you can trust and feel safe with. How do you do that? So let's say scenario is, well, it's me. Okay, so let's say I want to get into this, right? How— well, number one, I think, I don't think these people are going to be patient with me as I try to figure it out. You know what I mean? That's my biggest— that's where my mind goes first is If I— let's say I want to be a Domme and an experienced— I get to know an experienced sub my first time, like, how patient are they with me? How do I, you know, because I don't know. I, I guess I'm trying to figure out. But not only that, let's put it under the— let's put it under the understanding that it also could be a trigger for me.

Yeah.

Because I will say fisting and meth for me go hand in hand. I needed a place to live. What'd you say?

Unintended.

Unintended. I needed a place to live one time, and this man let me live in his studio apartment in exchange for he taught me how to fist him. And so I spent 2 weeks fisting this man on camera. Like, everything we did was projected on the wall too. So, you know, but anyway, so that's in my mind, fisting and meth. Fisting and meth. So how do we go about, as a newbie, um, how patient are the, the experienced people? And you said, as far as knowing how— when you're triggered, saying no— how much— what, what does it take? Does it take mainly patience? Does it take just awareness? What does it all take so that I am not thinking about meth?

It's I think it comes from a point of communication and honesty. Okay. If you're playing with someone and you know this might be a trigger, or you might, might in some cases actually get emotional.

Yes.

Be honest with the one you're playing with.

Okay.

Tell them where you're coming from. This is new to me. I'm in early recovery. You don't have to give them the grisly details.

Yeah.

But just kind of go, do you know what, this is where I'm at. This is what I want to do. Can we explore that?

Okay.

If the person you're talking to understands that, and respects that, and meets you at that point you're talking about, that is a good play partner. If they go, that's too much for me, That that is not what I want. That's also valid. That is perfectly fine. They may not want to deal with that trauma, and that's that's perfectly fine. Does it sometimes mean that you don't get that hookup?

Fine.

That sex is not everything. Sex is important, but it's not everything.

Yeah, yeah, and. Interesting.

Having that honest talk at the start, kind of to establish where you're at, that's fine. Does that take a bit of bravery and, and, and so on? Yeah, absolutely. Do you feel like this is the person you want to talk to this about? Boundaries, communications, patience. That is definitely, but it's, it's about finding good people who will understand where you're coming from.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, that's good. I, I don't know if this speaks for most of my listeners or not, but for me, I still have trust issues with men because of my meth experience. And I only recently, after 6 years, tried a relationship, and it didn't go well, right? So I just inherently expect the worst of gay men. So I think that's something I would have to work on before. It would take me some time, but I think it requires— it sounds like it's going to require patience anyway, right?

It's communication is so important.

Um, yeah.

And some— sometimes also like trusting your gut feeling. It's like, are you getting a good feeling with this person or not? There's no, there's no There's no rush. Yeah, we rushed so much in addiction. Yeah, um, and it's like next thing, next thing, next thing, next thing, bigger, better, harder, darker, all that. Now it's time to lean back, find out what you want to do, find the right people to do it with, and just Enjoy it. Enjoy— sex is supposed to be lovely and beautiful. And as I've said before, messy and sweaty and all that. It's not supposed to be anxiety-inducing. It can be. And, and I also sometimes like sober sex can be like having sex for the first time.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that's okay. There's a reason it was awkward the first time.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so sober sex can also be awkward, and that's also okay.

Yeah.

And, and that, that, that's universal. That can be from fetish sex to vanilla sex as well. Um, yeah, it's, it's— I've met some amazing people, uh, and then I've also had met shitty people that just didn't respect my boundaries.

Yeah.

I didn't know where my boundaries were. I know much more now where my boundaries are, and that's so important to me. So I'd rather say no than have a shit time.

Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, and and just in just oh God deny yourself, you know. Yeah, and betray yourself. That's the word I'm looking for. Yeah, and betray yourself.

Yeah.

Um, you know, these are, these are all skills, boundaries, and communication. I mean, this is all skills that you can use in the rest of your life, the rest, all the other aspects of your life too, right? Yeah. Um, I had a question here, but it looks like we've answered it. Um, and that's— I asked, I put out a question about, to my people, about what questions they would have today. The difference between sober kink and fetishes than the ones you have when you are not sober. We have to I think we went over that pretty well. Um, what about your podcast? What can we expect to see with your podcast? I want to make sure that we give it a, a good plug here.

I try to get people on with different experiences. I also have people on who are not necessarily sober, but they play sober. I have people on who are doctors or therapists as well.

Okay.

Or work with charities, um, harm reduction charities and stuff like that. So my podcast more focuses on the sober play, not necessarily recovery. I definitely have a lot of recovery people on.

Sure.

And also very much a plethora of different types of recovery, SMART recovery, 12-step, Um, all sorts of versions of doing it, doing it the way you want to do it. Um, so it's very much like, for me, it's a safe space to talk with someone who brings something to that subject. Sometimes I've had people on where we don't really talk recovery. We more talk about what their interests are.

Hmm. Okay.

I also sometimes— it's such a dark subject about recovery and the mess we get us into. Sometimes we also need to talk about the lighter side of life. So I try to kind of have a balance of that.

Okay.

I've definitely had some really powerful episodes where we dive into suicide attempts, overdoses, losing friends and family to drug addiction. And then I have other episodes where we sit and giggle and talk about drag and Eurovision and, um, the latest painting they've just made or stuff like that. Um, it's not all dramatic. I, I feel like sometimes some of my episodes, it's very much like different types of shares, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Me too.

Yeah.

Where you have like, oh yeah. Mm-hmm. You have the light and the dark episodes.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I definitely like the episodes that go really deep. Are some of my favorites. Absolutely. I think it was last season I had someone on I relapsed with at IML International Mister Lever in 17.

Oh wow!

And we talked a lot about that, and it was almost like like giving it a bit of airing and a little bit of compassion to how messy it was, but also this friendship that. Bloomed from it and we're still friends.

That's interesting.

Even from that messy chapter.

Wow.

So the podcast dives into all sorts of stuff and I try to keep the subjects— there's no certain theme for an episode. It's more what the guest brings to the episode.

Mm-hmm.

And I kind of like it that way because I get into conversation where I was like, I did not know we were going to get into that. But how fun was that? And that's that's so important to me. And I it also it's it's I love being reminded where I come from when I talk to people about their struggles. And I enjoy doing it. It keeps me grounded.

Yeah.

And that that's so important. So yeah, if If you want to listen to kinky men talk about kinky shit, yeah, check my podcast out.

Yeah, definitely.

And I'm in the middle of season 8 at the moment. I'm recording as we speak. Yeah, I'm recording an episode tomorrow as well. So it's a lot of fun. And I get to meet some very interesting people.

Clown fetish. Yes.

Who knew?

Who knew? I love it. Um, you know, I just feel like I knew it already, but this really confirmed and solidified it for me how healing this is.

Mm-hmm.

And, and really, I'm impressed by your groundedness. You, you really seem to have a realistic grasp on life and yourself, very self-aware. And I would guess That comes from being in this community a lot. I think that's got to be a big part of it.

No, I'm not saying— I would say I never try to like— I don't have everything figured out and I have my bad days. And I've literally been putting through trials this year with moving house and now this house is being sold. So we're being Evicted, the amount of anxiety and feeling shit and so on, it's there.

Yeah.

But I'm also like, if I can go through this and still be fine— I'm not gonna lie, to be honest, when we got the eviction notice for the house we're in now, oh my God, I wanted a drink. Yeah, so badly wanted a drink because that would just take the edge off.

Yep, yep.

Um, but I'm very much like, I verbalize that with my friends. It's like, I really would like a drink, but I'm not gonna do it. But I need to say it.

Mm-hmm.

That this is where my brain is going.

Yeah.

Um, and that's okay. It's okay to feel like that once in a while.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, as long as you don't action it and you—

that's right.

Don't sit with it.

That's right. That's right. Thank you. Everything you've said has just been It's just, I hope that listeners will listen to this again. Listen to it through a lens of not even kink or fetish. Just listen to what Ralph has said. He's dropped some nuggets here, some really good nuggets.

I try to, I try to, but I always kind of go, I'm not an expert. I'm just me. I talk from my own personal experiences. Um, but, but yeah, it, it's, I, I always kind of go, I'm not an expert. This is purely talking from my own experience and that is not everyone's experience. Um, I'm very much like, especially on my podcast, I always kind of go at the end of the podcast if they've heard anything my guest has said. And they've connected with that, give them a write. Or if I've said something they connected with.

Okay.

But it's not always they're going to connect with anything that gets said.

I'm glad you said that. If you're listening and you've connected with something Ralph said, give him a write, please.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah. Um, I have one more question. I'm going to edit the question and, and put it over with the other one. The question is, the other question I got was about bathhouses and darkrooms. If you still want to participate in those sober, is there a way to do that? How do you navigate that? And does that even fall into a kink or a fetish?

Well, it depends on what association you have to the bathhouse and the darkrooms. For me, Um, I remember first time I went to a club, my trigger was standing in the queue for the toilets because I knew what I used to go into the cubicle to do. I was going to do a line and stuff like that.

Yeah.

So I feel, yes, you can do those spaces, but you need an exit plan. You need someone there that knows your situation. Um, would I suggest it in the first year of recovery? Probably not.

Yeah.

Um, unless you have a really good safety net. Um, but then again, I'm not going to deny you doing that. I only went to a bathhouse or sauna last year for the first time because, um, saunas used to be Very chem sex for me. That's where I would go. Not so much later in my using, but very much so it was a trigger. And I went, didn't have a lot of sex, but I was there and I felt comfortable in that environment. Would I go back? Maybe not. It's it was just too. Kind of see how did I feel in that setting. But I, what I did was I actually texted a friend. It's like, I'm, I'm in a sauna at the moment. I'm in a bathhouse. This is the first time I'm doing this. And they were like, great, fantastic. Let me know how it goes. Just to have someone to check in with. So it's, it's all about when you feel you're ready.

Yeah.

And then question why you want to do it.

Yes.

Is there an alternative motive? I definitely have gone to club nights where I was just like, did I go to have fun or did I go to get tempted?

That's right. That's exactly right.

And I've definitely done that in my recovery where I've gone in just like, if someone offers me something, I won't say no.

Yep.

And I'm quite honest about that. That's just, it's luckily never happened. Thank God. Um, so it's, the thing is, it's an ongoing thing. It never, it's, it gets easier, but it's still going to be there. It's still, you, you, you are closer to a relapse by turning around. Kind of thing. So yes, do I have seven years of recovery? Do I feel very strong in my recovery? Absolutely. But you never fucking know.

That's right.

You don't know what life is going to throw at you.

That's right.

And I would say this year has been testing. Yeah, absolutely testing.

I would say so.

Because like when you look at my Instagram, it's all very smiley smiley smiley smiley.

Smiley.

That's not necessarily what goes on in my life. The anxiety, distress, um, and, and low moods and stuff like that. It can be quite trying because especially when you have an online presence, you kind of have to portray this, not perfection. I don't believe in perfection, but you have to, I hate using the word role model.

Yeah. I know.

Because I, I don't, I don't like doing this to myself, patting myself on the back too much. Um, but I have to set myself to a certain standard. Yeah. Um, because people are watching.

Yeah.

And listening.

Yeah.

Um, and maybe that also keeps me grounded or, um, keeps me a bit safe because I have other people depending on me. If that makes sense.

Mm-hmm. It does. It does. I'm feeling that. Right now, a lot. Um, I've made an error lately in sharing some personal things or some personal humor, and it does, does not come across the same way for people who idolize you.

Mm.

And whether I like it or not, like you're saying, I'm seen as a role model, and I honestly and truly was not ready for the pressure of that. It's a lot of fucking pressure.

Yeah, and it's one of the reasons, um, there's a lot of stuff going on in the world, political, uh, views, different camps about it and stuff like that. I try, at least for my podcast, unless the guest brings something up, try to stay away from that. That is not what my space is about, right? Um, And that should be okay to do that. Mine is about healing and kink and sobriety and stuff like that. What else goes on in the world, I try to—

Yeah.

Yes, is there stress factors around the world situation and stuff like that? When you are a recovering addict, that can put a lot of pressure on you. So of course, if that is something that needs to be talked about, Of course, but I try to keep my opinions— I keep myself as Switzerland at this point.

Sure. Yeah.

On a lot of things because people are looking and make an opinion.

Yeah. Yeah, I definitely do too, as far as issues and politics. The only thing I said to my followers about the election was, if you allow this election result to make you relapse, you've let Trump win twice. If that's what you're upset about. So do not let it be an excuse. You know, that was the only thing I said. But yeah, but yes, Ralph, I just want to say I have, I have just really enjoyed this, uh, immensely, very deeply. I've really enjoyed it. And I think you're doing such good work, and you're— you've really added to this podcast in a meaningful and impactful way. And I just appreciate you giving us your time.

Thank you very much. It's, it's actually been really, I think it's nice to be on the other side of the interview for once. And, and also because it's such a, a nice space to talk about this. And sometimes I forget to reflect a little bit on my own journey because I'm so focused on everyone else's.

Yeah.

Um, so it's, it's quite nice to come on and talk about where I come from and my experience. And I really do hope someone is listening to this. who wants to explore kink and a little bit nervous about his sobriety around that. Yes. And that being said, come on my Instagram, drop me a line. I'm happy to talk to people. I do that all the time.

So yeah, yeah. And one more thing. Is there anything I have not asked that you wish I would have? Did I miss something?

Oh, that's a big question. Not really, not particularly. Um, no, no, not really. No, I can't think of anything.

Okay, good. Just want to make sure. I always do. All right guys, thank you. I hope you enjoyed this episode. And as you know, you can connect with us on Facebook as well. We have the Aftermath Podcast Facebook community. If you'd like to start a discussion, do it on YouTube or Spotify. You can do that, start a thread, and we would love to hear from you. And I'd love to hear What spoke to you from this episode? What is it that really made a difference? What, what caused a light bulb moment for you? I'd love to hear that. And let's start— let's get a dialogue going. All right, see y'all next week.

Thank you.