EP 1:45: Drug Treatment: Queer-Affirming vs. Gay-Friendly with Rainbow Hill Recovery

Hey y'all, I'm happy to present today's podcast because I feel it holds tremendous value for the loved ones of crystal meth users who are searching for treatment centers or sober living that understand the nuances of this particular drug for men who have sex with men. Many family members of crystal meth users have contacted me asking for guidance when choosing treatment centers, so this podcast will be one that I can refer to in the future. There is a huge difference between gay-friendly and queer-affirming when it comes to the specific needs of our community and for crystal meth recovery. Joey and Steven from Rainbow Hill Recovery out of LA are doing the work for our brothers in the LGBTQ community. And I know for me, when I went through treatment and drug court, neither of those institutions had any idea how to speak to me and my needs, and it was very uncomfortable to talk about what happens in the Tina party world. You know, once I mentioned water sports, which is piss play, and there was a special conference held to discuss me and my likelihood of success in the program and possible psychological testing.

Wow.

I thought, well, if that precipitates a special conference, I won't even begin to share what else I did around 4:00 AM every night. They actually may have had me committed. So even if you are not looking for treatment or sober living, I invite you to listen very closely to the approach Rainbow Hill takes in their recovery philosophy around the use of the apps and the response to relapse. And I am so proud to share this podcast because what they have to say is progressive and hopeful that the recovery industry is moving away from the shame and fear tactics to force people into abstinence and into a more compassionate and individual approach. Alrighty, enjoy. The power of shame, which is kind of if you kept in the dark, The way to get the power— to take the power away from that is to get it into the light and bring it forward. And you help people do that. It's got to help, Steven, when, when those suffering from methamphetamine use disorder know that you have— Welcome to the After Meth Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create a repository of resources for current and past addicts, as well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermath. Trigger warning, this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey and you feel like you could be triggered by discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, please do not listen to this podcast. All right, now on with the show. All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg. As you know, I'm going to say— make sure this is not live streaming. Okay, um, I've been accidentally live streaming to YouTube apparently. I went on YouTube the other day and all the podcasts are on there that haven't been aired yet. So, you know, luckily hardly anybody looks at my YouTube channel, so we're good. Um, but anyway, as you're going— as you know, I'm going to ask you to please rate and review the podcast if you can, if you have not already. When you rate and review it, it gets in the, in the algorithm and we'll get in front of the people who need to see this podcast. Um, We are continuing to grow. We're up to 500 downloads a week right now, which is pretty good. I think we started in April. And so we're continuing to grow, but we need your help because the Aftermath is not a word. And so the SEO doesn't know who to show it to. Doing the best we can with that. So if you could share also the podcast, share whatever platform you listen to has a share button, share it on your social media, please. And if you do, tag me on it. And we will send you something. I don't have merchandise, but I'll send you at least a thank you.

So there you go.

Today we are going to talk about a— we're going to go into some, uh, some treatment, uh, discussions. And so we're living discussions. We're going to talk about Rainbow Hill, which is in LA. We have not addressed, um, queer-affirming Treatment on the podcast yet, and especially not sober living. I'm interested about the sober living actually, because I will tell you I've called around before this to some sober living facilities who say they're queer affirming or queer friendly. So I want to ask you too. We'll probably get to that. What's the difference between LGBTQ affirming and friendly? Because I think I know the answer to this already from calling around. But I called some treatment centers too. I called one here locally, which I'm in. South Carolina, so this may not be a surprise to you, but I asked the gentleman who I talked to who's over the men's part of the treatment center about how they treat, um, gay men coming in and/or with crystal meth use disorder. And the answer I got was addiction is addiction, it's the same thing, and the gays are treated just like the straights. So that was the answer I got. Um, and then the other treatment center I called said they love to have, uh, gay people come in because they keep their room tidy. So that was an interesting result, uh, answer too. So with that being said, I'm going to introduce— or they're going to introduce Joey and Stephen from Rainbow Hill Sober Living and Rainbow Hill Recovery.

Stephen, would you like to go first?

Yeah, so, um, my name is Stephen Stewart. Oh, Stephen Buffen Stewart. I was recently married. I am sober for the last 6 and a half years. My sobriety date is May 27th, 2018. I had an addiction history of 13 years. I started when I was 13 and started trying to get sober at 26. Didn't do it the first time. 6 months in, quick relapse, back to it. I am now a, a CADAC, so a Certified Alcohol and Drug Counselor. Um, that was a long time coming. Uh, I actually started that process when I was working with Joey in their sober living as their house manager the first time. Um, and that's kind of me in a nutshell for my— at least that.

Thank you. Yeah, so my name is Joey Bacharach, and I am the co-founder of both Rainbow Hill Sober Living and Rainbow Hill Recovery. My husband, Andrew Fox, and I opened our standalone LGBT men's house originally in, uh, in 2021. And to bring up a very good valid point that you brought up, what's the difference between, like, friendly and affirming? And when we opened, we realized There were homes that were claiming to be LGBT friendly, and really that all meant was that it was a cheap marketing tactic for anyone is welcome, everyone is welcome. And so we wanted to create a space specifically for our community by our community. And Stephen has been part of our journey from start to finish. He was our first OG head of house, and while he was with us, he then went to school, got his credentials, and then when we opened our treatment center in 20. 2023, we gave him a call and said, hey, Steve, it looks like our timeline got bumped up. Would you like to come join our family again? So with Rainbow Hill Recovery, we are also exclusively LGBT, and we're able to treat both primary mental health and primary substance use disorder. So that's, that's us in a nutshell. But I'm sure we're gonna dive in pretty deep during this conversation. So thank you so much for having us. And also a special shout out to you because I realized That we've been following each other since 2022, as far as sober living is concerned. So it's nice to finally meet you face to face, even though it's through a computer screen, and we look forward to doing what we can to help your listeners.

Yeah, thank you. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Thank you for doing that. Yeah, well, the let's start with the sober living, maybe. Um, and the reason I ask— one of the reasons I ask about that— I have— I get DMs every day, all day, uh, from men actually around the world. But a lot of men ask me about sober living because they've tried it and they have to hide their sexuality.

Mm-hmm.

Um, there's some, you know, there's some also, also really scary stories about what they've experienced. in with their roommates, um, and that I have to hear. So is that why you started? Why did you begin? And, and I guess if I am looking for sober living, what are some questions to ask that really gets down to whether or not this is somewhere that's safe?

Yeah, well, first off, I would, um, I would do your own due diligence by checking out their website. A lot of things can be deceiving just from the text. If you oversaturate your website with gay-friendly or gay this, gay that, I mean, we, we know we can read through the nuances, but obviously give them a call, ask them questions, um, how they've dealt with clients in the past who happen to be gay or trans or non-binary, um, if there have ever been any issues, how was that specifically issue handled. Do you know, at the end of the day, we are all recovering addicts. And I thankfully did not have a bad experience when I was in sober living. I was the only gay guy, which was totally fine by me. But a lot of the clients we've had since opening have had those experiences that you were talking about. Either they were called homophobic slurs by fellow housemates, or even by They were promised one thing about being safe, and it wasn't that at all. We actually got a call from somebody the other day who's currently at a place. He was asking for a pen and paper, and the person in the background said, why do you have to talk like that? Because he had a higher octave voice.

Oh my gosh.

So, and this is in California also. So I think no matter where you are, there is always going to be ignorance. But Andrew and I really wanted to open space because specifically for our community, and they're like our little secret children. So it's been really nice. Yeah.

Well, I have to ask, uh, due to the podcast, I have to ask about your experience with men who are in a crystal meth addiction. And also, are there, are there specific needs for those with a crystal meth addiction that are different than with some other addictions? Are they treated differently? How do you approach that?

So I'm gonna— I'll open up the conversation a little bit and then I'll let Stephen dive in because he is part of our clinical team. Yeah, but from the Sober Living standpoint, when we first opened, we had an idea that, you know, majority of addicts that we're going to be helping were either alcoholics or former cocaine users. We didn't think or anticipate that meth was going to be our primary focus when we first opened. So Andrew and I had a lot to learn, and, um, it was definitely a learning curve. But, you know, at the end of the day, we always put our clients first. And when Stephen was so vulnerable and vocal about his own experience with meth specifically, it was, um, it added a lot to our family unit. As far as treatment goes, I will pass it over to Stephen.

Um, yeah, so with Crystal meth, we come into these cross-addictions, right? We have people then who have sex addiction as a process addiction, behavioral addictions, because as meth addicts with a lower inhibition point, they're more likely to behave in a manner that is not acceptable in society, right? With meth specifically, you see higher levels of theft. You see higher levels of risk-taking situations around STIs, HIV, cruising in public, you know, public indecency and exposure. It's also—I know of somebody who, in regards to self-harm, that was a form as a gay man of self-harm—is they would go into areas and expose themselves because they were dealing with the shame aspect. Of being gay and having internalized homophobia that they were not addressing. I think it is a big part of the conversation within the treatment world. Where is the shame identified, right? How can we get through the shame of being closeted, right? I know in my treatment experience, I was at a treatment center that allowed me to be very authentic to myself after living on the street for years. Hiding who I was, and then when I went back to sober living, Joey didn't exist at the time, or well, Rainbow Sober Living didn't exist at the time, and there was nothing like it because I had experiences that were horrible in sober living in a place that you know we're told you feel safe, meant to feel safe and accepted, and the reality is just don't talk about it. You can talk about your sobriety aspect; you can talk about all of that, but. The minute sex or anything gets brought up, it's suddenly taboo. I can speak for when I was head of house with the sober living, nothing was taboo. Come bring everything to me that you need because my role was to help you learn how to navigate sobriety as a queer individual in a safe and healthy way. And it— I think it worked. Um, I know clients that are still sober today that communicate with me still from that period of time, as, as we like to say, season 1. Um, so yeah, it can be a little hard. I know one of the things that we look at really when we're treating with gay men who deal with sex addiction is none of the apps. Right? No Grindr, no Sniffies, no XYZ. Like, if they're on an authentic dating site and looking for connection versus a hookup, that makes a difference because a lot of them don't understand how wrapped up their addiction is with sex, right? And while they may have a sex-positive attitude, which is amazing, Absolutely. Sex is meant to make us feel good. We are meant to connect with people in that way. It's part of our programming. And if it's a triggering event, it's a triggering event and it needs to be worked on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So listeners, those of you that fight me on this no-app rule in early sobriety, because it is— it's taken a lot As I'm repressing— when I, when I talk about these apps, I'm repressing your sexual expression, and that is not what this is, right? So you're hearing this from a treatment center, from a sober living center. One of the first things you're going to do is restrict the apps, right?

Plain and simple. Yeah, we're not saying that you can't date while you're in recovery. There are just appropriate ways to meet people And full transparency, a majority of all the relapses we have ever had in three and a half years started with the apps. That's what it comes down to. It's come down to Grindr, Snapchats, anything that's part from to party and play. So that's why we have a zero tolerance rule for it. Clients have been discharged if it's found on their phones. So what we do is we create a safe environment for them, especially when they first move in. And we tell them, listen, if you need help restricting the apps, go to our head of house, talk to them, they will happily put a passcode on your phone, you will be restricted from using it. And then when you move out of the house, if you want to redownload it, that is your prerogative, you can do that. We don't recommend it. And the same is true with sex work or escorting. So we are a sex-positive house, but we don't allow any of our clients to escort Court or have sugar daddies while they're living under our roof or in our treatment center.

So, yeah, yeah. And so again, listeners, if you are thinking about trying to recover and maybe you're not at a place where you can go to a recovery center yet or sober living, one of the first things you can do is restrict your apps. I mean, you can restrict the app. There are parental locks you can put on your phone, just like they're saying. here, Joey and Stephen. So thank you for saying that. And I'm probably going— that's definitely going to be a clip that I'm going to put on a reel and put on social media. Because it's just that, you know, the thing is, even if you're just using Grindr lightly, or it's— or whatever on your phone, it's— when you are triggered, it's just so easy. And you just said almost all the relapses have called— can be traced back to to Grindr, um, or Sniffies, whatever.

Um, they're the same thing.

Yeah, it's, it's anything that populates— so there is the cultural identity of promiscuity within the gay community, right? So it's anything that promotes that in a way that is casual. I'm not saying we can't be promiscuous. I have my history. I managed to do it while sober. Before I found my husband, you know, and there is a way to go about it. I can speak from the treatment side. One of the first things I teach people in life skills is how to communicate with people, interpersonal communication, because if we're taking away this way people connect, right, we need to give them something else. So we try to teach them how to go out, build the courage to talk to people face to face. You know, because 9 times out of 10, the person doing party and play is not going to be at the sober meeting or at an event, you know, high, looking for somebody, where on the app that is what they are doing specifically.

Scrolling endlessly. Yeah. So I'm wondering about this, the interpersonal skills, does that cross over into helping them understand what intimacy is in their healing process and their recovery process? Do you touch on that? Because I have a lot of questions about that.

We do. That would be more something that is done with our therapists, somebody who's licensed for it. I can give them generalizations. If they want to bring something to me, I can talk to them about it, what safe intimacy looks like. We actually have an amazing therapist who comes in and teaches healthy relationships and healthy sexuality. She is phenomenal and has been met with a really good response rate from all of our clients so far.

And she also does a— she specializes in BDSM and kink as well.

Yes.

Really?

Yeah.

Wow. Yeah, that's another big— that's another big topic we're exploring here because I have so many men who, they want to explore kink, BDSM. I have another podcast coming up about that, um, but you know, it can be triggering for someone coming out of the, the meth scene, but they still want to explore it in a sober way. So the fact that you offer that, such a huge perk for recovery.

All the many things we offer here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice, nice. Okay, so what— let me ask, what questions— I saw that you have PHP, you have IOP, and OP. So these are, these are terms, acronyms that We're familiar with— a lot of us are familiar with if we tried to go through some recovery. But what sets yours apart? What are— what can I expect?

So we'll double team on this one. So I'll go over the acronyms for everyone who's not familiar with them. It took us a while to understand them when we first started as a thing, and then now it's just become second nature as a treatment center. But PHP stands for partial hospitalization. And essentially you're in program 5 days a week and you get 2 individual sessions with our primary therapist. And then IOP stands for intensive outpatient, and it's also anywhere between 3 to 5 days a week, and you get 1 individual session with our primary therapist. And then outpatient, so known as OP, is more of an à la carte kind of programming. So you can come anywhere between 1 to 3 days a week. 5 times a week, depending, for 1 hour a day and 1 individual session per week. And then as far as what separates us from other programs is that we are extremely transparent about who we are, not only as individuals, but as far as what we offer as a program. We're exclusively queer, which means we're not straight allied, which is kind of cool. We are very transparent with our prices. So I don't know of any other treatment center out there that actually has their prices on their website. We are in network with Blue Shield of California, and we're currently working on other insurance contracts, so we'll be as accessible as possible. So that's one of the few things that separates us from others. And I think as far as programming goes, I'll pass it over to Steven.

Yeah. So another thing that really kind of sets us apart is that we, you'll hear in most treatment centers co-occurring disorder, right? So they're able to handle some of the mental health while focusing in on substance use. We are able to take people who are primary mental health, who may not have any substance use, right? And people who are substance use while dealing with the co-occurring. So our groups, so like relapse prevention, for instance, which is one of the groups that I run, it is tailored around in language to include people who may be struggling with depression or anxiety attacks or things of that nature as a relapse. Because at the end of the day, a relapse is a return to an old behavior or an old— place in our mind, right? So if we're working towards having a balanced mentality, a relapse for somebody in mental health would definitely be going back into a depressive episode, the same way it would be for a meth addict going back to the pipe, right? Because for them, it feels like they're starting from scratch again, right? Which is a lot of the shame around relapse is that I've lost all this time. I don't— I have to start all over. One of the biggest things I try to get people to understand is relapse is absolutely a part of recovery. It doesn't have to be, but it absolutely is a part. And just because you have to reset your time, you're not resetting your knowledge. You still have all this information. Part of what I think then also in the treatment realm, In our clinical that makes us unique is, um, honestly, so Joey covered it with therapy, right? 2 sessions per week actually is quite a lot for a lot of places. A lot of places it's one time with your therapist and that's it. On top of that, as a counselor, if we do have someone with substance use, they will not only be getting their sessions with our primary therapist, but they will also have an individual with me. I also do case management with clients, which means connecting them with services that they may need. So that's disability, food banks, 12-step meetings, or other types of recovery meetings. So there's, there's no one way to get sober, right? You've got, you've got things like conscious contact, Dharma, Refuge Recovery, 12-step, behavioral modification type of programs. So for instance, if you're looking at dealing with sex addiction, They use a behavioral model in corporation with 12-step. So you're looking at things that are healthy and safe behaviors, things that kind of get a little sticky, and then at the core of things, things that you don't want to ever, uh, do. They're, they're dangerous, right? You are directly on a path to relapsing.

Well, you all are saying everything. The listeners are probably going to think I Uh, gave you questions and answers beforehand because you're saying everything that, that I say. There's no one route to sobriety, right? I loved hearing you say that. So listeners, for those of you who are traumatized by some of the normal, uh, recovery programs that we were forced to do, you're not forced to do that here. It sounds like you're open to whatever route, right?

We have different ways, different options. I've been very transparent I'm very transparent and vocal about my own story. I'm literally less than a week away from celebrating my 7th birthday. And I had a year and some change my first go-around. I went out and I was out for 8 months. And I nearly lost everything and burned everything down to the ground. But I got back up. I admitted to my faults, my wrongdoings. I understood I am somebody who cannot drink or use. And there's No problem with that. And since then, I've really been wearing my sobriety on my sleeve, and I would shout it on the top of the rooftop if I could. And we have a terrace, like, technically I could do that. But, uh, I, I, I, um, I think that by being so open about one's past, it does offer and shed some light and hope to people who are thinking about, maybe I can do this after all. And it isn't a one-two fits all. I did 12 steps my first go around. This time around, I don't go to meetings except to get my cake, get my cake. Or, um, like a therapist. I highly recommend finding a therapist if you're able to, uh, in combination of whatever works for you. Whatever works for me may not work for you, but there are options.

Yeah. Good. Thank you for saying that. And Stephen, I like what you said about relapse too. Because, you know, the way that the industry has framed relapse, it keeps people relapsing, in my opinion, the shame around it, right? Correct. Correct. And so if I relapse in the program, what is— what are— how do you handle that? What are the steps that you're going to go through?

So with our program, it's a conversation. It's a conversation. We will address it directly with the client. It's normally handled by our primary therapist. I'm the one doing all the UA, so I will be the first person to know. But then I bring it to the therapist, it becomes a conversation, and we talk about a safety plan going forward with it. Because it is, it's a safety plan. We are not going to shame you for a relapse, right? You cannot be quote unquote high while at the facility. You may be asked to, after speaking with Royce, leave until you are Um, stabilized again. If it is a really bad relapse, we will definitely talk about sending you to detox because, you know, when you relapse on alcohol, um, when you relapse on benzos, things like that, your body can go back into shock once you try to get off of it again. So having a medically assisted detox is really important to manage, um, your safety and your health. Otherwise, it becomes a conversation. If it is repetitive, then we begin the conversation about stepping up to a higher level of care because that is clearly what you need. You need more attention and help developing the stepping stones, right? The base of your sobriety, right? What we are is we are transitional. We are going to help you get the skills to reintegrate back into life, back into Having a full and busy schedule, whether that looks like reintegrating back at a current job, helping you find a job, helping you establish what your recovery program can look like going forward. I've helped people get back into school after being out of school for years. So yeah, it's a conversation. It's not— and it's not a shameful conversation. It's okay. So what happened? Because at the end of the day, secrets keep us sick, right? All the little tropes. And at the same time, your secrets are what feed your shame. If you have shame, it cannot survive when it's brought into the light because it's all about connection. Connection is the most important thing. I think that's one of the most important things in our program, and we help facilitate that connection. We Our group members do spend time together outside of the program because they are making connections and bonding. Dungeons and Dragons. Yes, yes, they actually, they've showed an interest in D&D, which, you know, tabletop game from the '80s, and they started that process, which is kind of amazing. So, hmm.

I love that. Shame, the power of shame, which is kind of if you kept in the dark, the, the way to get the power, to take the power away from that, is to get it into the light and bring it forward. And you help people do that. It's got to help, Stephen, when, when those suffering from methamphetamine use disorder know that you have been there.

Yes, yes.

Yes, it's got to help.

Yeah, I am fully open with my story with my clients. I really don't hold anything back because like I said, connection is the biggest way to get over shame, is the biggest way to develop those relationships that you need for sobriety. So if I can model a particular behavior, that is what I strive to do. I mean, I I've done the sex addiction. I've done the methamphetamine. I, I man, my father passed away a year and a half into my sobriety, and I had to completely close out his affair in my hometown where all of my addiction took place, in the apartment where my addiction was, with my ex who still used in my dad's home. So like, man, and managing to stay sober. You know, so, um, and I'm, I'm very free with the thoughts that have run through my head in my addiction and letting them know, listen, you're not alone. This is not— it's not terminal uniqueness. I guarantee somebody's had a similar experience, and it's just being vulnerable in the correct settings with people to Allow them to connect and empathize, you know?

Yeah, yeah. I just imagine you, listener, as a gay man crystal meth addict being in a house or recovery center full of, you know, not— no, no hate, but straight people who, who know nothing about what happens in a gay meth scene. Because I'm sorry, This gay— the gay meth scene is unique to, I think, any other drug scene. It's, it's like you step into a different world. It's a portal to a different world. Would you agree with that, Stephen? Or am I being dramatic?

No, I, I do agree. So there are different rules, right? So I look at everything in the rules that we play by. Um, one of the One of the ways I used to describe my addiction is it was all part of the game. Chalk it all up to the game, right? I had no guilt or shame over my addiction because it was all just part of what I was doing to survive. And that that really was a big part of when I was unhoused and homeless was that everything I did was for survival. And I think when we step into the meth realm. Everything really is for survival. We feel hypervigilant and hyper-aware that everybody's judging us, right? It's the little voice at the back of our head that is saying, well, if you do this, maybe you'll normalize, right? You'll fit in. Because that's what— I can speak for myself. My experience with methamphetamine, the first time I did it, I felt Like I could settle into my skin and be okay with being me, right? And the problem with it is that is such a lie. Let me rephrase. Everything is a solution at one point and it becomes maladaptive. That is what meth does. It is an active working solution, just like alcohol, just like heroin, just like coke, just like ecstasy. Just like Molly, just like bentos. It is a fix and it works until it doesn't. And that's where the danger gets, gets to us, right? Because stimulants, amphetamines, is used to treat ADHD quite regularly. And that's where a lot of people's addictions start when you consider it, because, you know, okay, we're hyperactive. We do have, you know, ADHD is a common diagnosis. the gay population. And so that's kind of where it can start and become maladaptive. For me, that was definitely a truth. And there were absolutely different rules to how we engage with other gay men when we are using methamphetamine.

Yeah. Is that a challenge, bringing them into sober living?

No.

It's actually been really easy. Yeah, it's, it's been really nice. We haven't had any issues. Someone says, my drug of choice is meth. Like, fantastic. We're at the right place. Heroin? Amazing. Cocaine? Like trail mix, whatever it is. We, we're definitely well-versed now. And it's, it's been really special.

Okay, okay. That was my first thought. And again, I don't have experience— my, my personal experience did not involve sober living. Um, that's just where my head went first, because like you said, Stephen, sex addiction is so closely related to meth addiction. And then you're putting me in a private room with another gay man, you know. And so my first— that's where my head went first, was I wonder how you— if, if I'm going in How safe do I— you know, how do I— how do you make me feel, or how do you help me feel safe that my sex addiction won't show up?

So we are very direct with every single person who has ever moved into our house, even when they interview to get voted into the house, that we have very, like, zero tolerance for anyone hooking up with one another. You need to keep your hands to yourself. And unfortunately, with our community specifically and the trans community is we always have to assume that we've been sexually assaulted at least once. So keep your hands to yourself. There is a pretty large sex and sex love. What's the SLAA? Sex, love, and— so there's a pretty large community here. So there are a lot of resources in Los Angeles. I wouldn't know other states. or cities, but in LA specifically, there are resources. And we are able to connect people with sex therapists. So we, we work with our clients, and we've been very fortunate that they've been upfront with us if they do struggle with that. And honesty and transparency go a long way with us. So you can't read anyone's mind.

Right, right, right, right, right. Okay. You mentioned, and I read on the website, Uh, you mentioned reentry quite a bit. Um, what, what would I expect help, you know, in reentry thinking forward? What do you help with? What is that like, that process like?

Um, so it's a gradual process that starts from the day you get into our care. Um, so one ethical practice is that you begin to plan the discharge of the client from day one. So creating a safety plan because listen, it's common, right? You have people who will AMA outta program. You wanna make sure that they have something that may be able to keep them safe going forward from day one. But for reentry specifically with me, it looks like helping them learn how to build a CV or a resume. It, I have sat and done, What's the word? Uh, I've sat and helped them study for their driver's license test. I've helped them with admissions process for colleges. I have one client that I'm helping get their GED currently, teaching them how to write a professional email, teaching them how to cook for themselves, how to budget. A plan. So like, we do have clients who come in on food stamps. That's like $248 for a month that they're supposed to survive off of. That works out roughly to about $9 a day. So teaching them how to actually cook enough food to last them where they're only spending $9 a day for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, which sounds challenging, but it All about prepping ahead of time. You know, some people I've taught how to wash a dish. I've done a lot, a lot with reentry and life skills when I worked with Joey at the School of Living, which was like how to clean up behind themselves, how to vacuum, how to mop, how to clean a toilet. I had to teach somebody how to clean a toilet. Properly, you know. Um, those are all kind of life skills that at this stage in our life we may take for granted. We don't think about it, right? We just know this is what's expected, this is how we do it. Um, but similarly, like, I struggle still to this day writing a biography, you know, because it's not something I ever really have to do. Can I write a 20-page research paper at this point? Absolutely. But doing a buy-up on myself? Yeah.

Yeah, I shouldn't have made the assumption that you had one at the last minute either.

Well, it's all good. It all worked out. It all worked out. With reentry from going back to work, so if somebody is in their PHP or IOP 5, which is 5 days a week, we do not encourage them to start looking for work. Just yet. We want them to really focus on getting better. And then as they start to step down, they'll go from IOP 5 to IOP 3, which is 3 days a week, which means that that's the time we start to nurture them and make sure, like, okay, what is it that interests you? What kind of job would you be interested in doing? And that's when they start applying. And then they could either get accepted or rejected. But you know what? Sometimes it's a numbers game and it has nothing to do with— you as an individual. They just were looking for something else. And so we— they're able to experience, um, rejection, success and rejection in a safe environment where their fellow— every— they get to experience it together. Um, and so that's— it's been nice to watch that as well. So we want them to go back into the real world and that we're the last stop.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so listeners, I would suggest if you're shopping for a, you know, a treatment center or sober living, ask these questions about what kind of re-entry services do they offer. Because I went through IOP and IOP 5, I stepped down to 3, and I stepped down to 2. There was no help with— for me in terms of re-entry. There was no— nobody ever asked me if wanted to work or needed help or anything like that. I mean, it was just checking boxes of, did you fill this form out? And, you know, they gave you these little special recovery bucks if you brought in your homework, um, and, you know, stuff like that. That was my— that was my experience. But, um, that's so important because the thing with— I went through drug treatment court as well, right? And there was no entry— re-entry for that. Either. And so you finish, you, you hit a milestone when you finish treatment, or you graduate from sober living or drug treatment, and then you're thrown back into the same environment you came from with no type of transition, right? Um, so this is a huge asset to what, uh, Joey and Stephen are talking about here.

Yeah, that's, that kind of goes back to the point, um, that I was talking about when I was talking about interpersonal communication, right? It, you can't take something away from somebody without providing them something else to utilize, right? So when we think about addiction, addiction at its core is a coping mechanism, right? So part of that is then if we're taking away addiction, we need to supply them with other coping skills. So a lot of that goes back to dialectical behavioral therapy, where you get to learn mindfulness. And things like Wise Mind and tools, just tools to manage. My favorite personal tool is pause. Just, just before you send that email, before you send that text message, before you say that thing, pause. Is this a reaction? Or is this a response?

Mm-hmm.

Love that. I love that. The powerful pause. Again, it's like I've fed you with questions and I have not. Uh, yeah, the powerful pause, it's so important for cravings, triggers, for emotional sobriety, which we don't hear about.

Yes.

You know, it's the after, right? It's the after the steps or the after the programs, uh, staying emotionally sober. Nice. Thank you for that. Um, so what is, what is your favorite part I guess I wanted to ask you, Joey and Stephen. So what is, what is your most rewarding? What is your why for doing this?

Oh, that's a really easy question for me to answer. The why at the end of the day is our clients, especially those who have been— they were very— others would think difficult, um, who didn't launch right off the bat but really struggled at first and are still sober today. The ones that still call me at like, I don't know, 10 months, 12 months, 16. We had a client who came and visited us not that long ago who just celebrated 2 and a half years, which is crazy. So it's just, it's them. It's all of them. They're still our sober children. And although Andrew and I are not involved with them as clients anymore on a day-to-day basis, it is still my To hear their success stories from our clinical here and then from our sober living. So it's, um, I wouldn't change anything.

Do you have an alumni type of program that they can get together or anything like that?

We're actively working on it right now. We're, um, we have a few people in mind who did really well and graduated. And with our new group of clients who are here now, they'll, you know, You know, it'll eventually grow. As far as the certain living, they kept in touch with one another, which is kind of cool. They tend to move out with each other and get apartments. We call them different seasons, and I believe we're on season 7 at this point. So we have a new group of people at the house, more blended families. So we have everyone who's queer, trans men and women. So it's, um, it's a really nice family.

Um, I would say for me it's similar to Joey's, the clients. Um, it's also in part that I recognize the impact my counselor had on me in treatment. I recognize that the amount of space that was held for me is what I needed to be able to change and actually make lasting change. So for me, I do, I do, I say this, I've, I've said this before to many people. I don't have a job that I dread coming to. I have a job that I love coming to, that I love getting to share the wins and the losses and the happiness and heartache with my clients. And providing them the space to absolutely be their most authentic self. I have in the past for clients who, you know, want to experiment with things like drag or experiencing gender on a spectrum, right? Their expression. I get my nails done every week. I have I'm in here wearing high heels and not just like, not little heels, 6-inch stilettos, you know, to show them that it's okay to express themselves however they want. Um, and you're— that it's— we provide that safe space. So providing that to the clients is probably what keeps me absolutely Energized and invigorated for this work, you know, because Joey created this amazing— Joey and Andrew created this really, really amazing space in this treatment center. So when they did contact me, I was already working somewhere as a technician, and I said, hey guys, sorry, I'm putting in my 2 months. You know, I'll help train somebody, but I have a job that really means something to me that is waiting.

So we're really happy to have you, Steve.

I'm so happy to be here.

I looked for research and maybe I didn't look hard enough. I didn't see— I saw a couple of dissertations, but I didn't see like official research done on the difference of success rates for the, the queer community in, in attending a queer-affirming treatment center compared to not. There was a couple of dissertations I saw though, and it showed that the, the recovery process is more successful, like markedly more successful, when you go through a treatment center that is actually affirming. Again, you have to— if family members, anyone who's looking for treatment center or sober living You have to be very careful that you don't get tricked by a rainbow on the website, right?

Right, right.

You have to look further in that and call. Do what I did, just randomly call, and you'll get, you'll get some really fun answers, um, from the, from the people. Because if you call a marketing number, you're going to get a script. But my suggestion is you call random people in on the website, and you're going to get some inside cultural information on how they view the queer community and, and how much they know about the recovery process.

I would say also for anybody calling, do not be afraid to ask for a clinical member, for somebody to talk to, to actually ask what that program looks like. Um, I know when I'm doing admissions, one of the biggest questions I get from people, so what's a day actually look like? What can we expect?

Right.

And communicate— there's, there's definitely language that communicates what actually an affirming and friendly location is, right? Um, part of, part of what makes Monday mornings so powerful for clients is they can come in and bring anything on Monday morning to the therapist for process group. And they have talked about lookups, they have talked about Crazy encounters, rage, which I personally as a gay man have a lot of rage about what's going on right now, you know, and, and how to protect other members of my family who like live in Kansas, you know, so yeah.

Or South Carolina.

Yep.

Yeah. What is a day like? Like, if someone were to call and ask you, what would you say?

Um, I would, I would break down the group schedule for you, which I can do over the course of the week. Um, I would also include that, um, part of being an affirming location is that our doors aren't closed. Um, that's not to say our doors aren't shut, but like, at any point in time, if a client has a moment where They just need to talk to someone. Our primary therapist is pretty busy, but my door, our program manager's door, and even Joey and Andrew make themselves available if needed to talk to a client. You know, it, it comes kind of back to this really is a familial type of location. We want you— because that's also rewriting history for people, right? A big part of family dynamic, internal family systems, is kind of reshaping your understanding around family. And that's something that I know when I worked at the house was really important. I was the gunkle to everybody, but providing them that safe space, I'd rather be You know, absolutely as a counselor, somebody with respect, and project onto me. I can be your brother, I can be your uncle, I can be a sibling, I can, you know, be mad. Let's talk about it, you know. Um, and so that's, that's kind of what it looks like, is that we're available all week. Um, you know, we do— there is an expectation, we do have group guidelines. We do expect you to pay attention. We will call you out if we see that, you know, you are not where you're supposed to be at that period of time. But a week really just looks like a lot of learning. I tell people that, especially people in PHP and IOP 5, this is your job. How would you show up to work? Because that is what you're doing. You may not physically feel like you are at work, But your brain is going from, from start to finish, you know, and to make sure that they're taking that time to rest afterwards.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So listeners, we talked earlier about the reasons we go into crystal meth, right? And if I ask a lot of men who, who call in or talk to me about my services, they'll say they started it Because of sex, right? But you said it earlier, Stephen, that a lot of time— most of the time, actually— it's because they haven't found anywhere else where they feel like they belong.

Mm-hmm.

And it's— or in their own skin, right? I know for me, the first time I used, I was like, oh, this is what I've been searching for my entire life. At 40— at 39, I was— the first time I felt like all my inhibitions were gone. Oh, I just felt like I could be me, right? And that's what meth gives a gay man.

Yeah.

And then they— you'd explore yourself sexually. So when you're thinking about this, to the listener, when you're thinking about a treatment center or sober living, don't think of it— and you all correct me if I'm wrong here— don't just think of it as just something to get sober. Think of it as another way to feel connected, another way to feel belonging and accepted in a family. Because many of us have either religious trauma, family trauma, we have it all, right? Internalized homophobia, all that stuff. But when you're thinking about a treatment center or something like that, how about this is also going to give me what meth gave me but in a healthy way? Is that—

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's fair. Uh, the only thing I would change is instead of using sense of family, we would provide you family, because sense implies that it's a yes or no, or a certain feeling. I am— yeah.

Genuine, genuine family. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Interesting. Okay, so what have I not asked that you wish I had? Probably a lot. But what have I not asked that you wish I would have covered, or what did I miss?

It's never too late. It's never too late to try and get sober. Um, the catch-all, because I am from Kansas and Texas, is like, you can learn a new trick. It doesn't matter if you're an old dog or new dog. Like, you can learn how to live life differently. We, we have had clients who are in their 60s And we have had clients who are 18, you know. Yeah, it's just give yourself the opportunity to be vulnerable and afraid.

Anything that I missed, Joey? I think you covered quite a bit.

Do you want to talk about your Totally Sober podcast? Oh, sure.

It's a fun thing that we do for shits and giggles. My incredible husband was the one who had the brilliant idea, and it's grown over time. And what it's not about— Rainbow Hill Recovery at all. It's not about Hill's Overlooking at all. It's a time for me to interview different people from different treatment centers, if they're in recovery themselves, if they're not in recovery themselves. We've had the opportunity to interview the mayor of West Hollywood, John Erickson, and he was one of the main reasons why the Log Cabin is still standing, which is a huge recovery place in Los Angeles. Yeah, so that was unique. Steven's been on it a few times, but basically the whole idea of it is to have an open conversation with who are not in recovery and to show them that we're, at the end of the day, we're pretty much the same people. There's no reason why there should be all this stigma when it comes to, oh, once you get sober, you lose all of your friends who don't drink or use. Advice that I wish I'd listened to a long time ago was to remove toxic people from my life a long time ago, whether or not they're sober. Toxic people are toxic people.

Amen.

And so we really wanted to give a platform to people to share about, you know, hope and inspiration and hopefully inspire people who are thinking about getting sober because there's nothing shameful about it. I wear it on my sleeve. I know not everybody's there just yet, but it is possible. So that's, uh, that's, that's the idea and we're very happy about it.

Nice. Well, I'll put, of course, all the links in the show notes for everything here, your websites, the podcast. Um, if I am in a different state, by the way, I didn't ask— this is something I missed, I think. Um, if I'm listening and I'm in Maryland or something, am I able to— am I able to come to LA? And is there a waiting list for the Sober Living? How's that work?

Yeah, so you would be eligible to come to both. Funny, I can't believe we didn't touch base on this, but a majority of our clients have actually come from out of state, whether that's the Midwest, the East Coast, some California. But yeah, so if you're not in LA, it's not an issue at all. The process to get to the sober living is I would go online, visit us online, send us an email, schedule a call with either myself For my husband Andrew, we would do a pre-assessment. If we feel that you'd be a good fit for the house, we then introduce you to our current clients who live at the house, and they will interview you. They'll ask you questions about your sobriety, uh, what's different this time around. Is this your first time getting sober? Have you lived in a sober living before? And just really get to the bottom of what somebody's looking for because Because our house isn't a good fit for everyone. Our clients will always put the needs of the house before their own. So if they get a sense of somebody who clearly doesn't want to be in sober living, if their partners are giving them an ultimatum, families are going to cut them off, the house will very politely say, thank you so much, but let's schedule an interview for a different time because we don't want to waste your time or ours. For treatment, a lot of treatment centers are able to, and we have to legally offer somebody to fly back home if we fly them to our treatment center within 365 days of completing program. So we're open to everyone that's out of state. That will change though come January 1st because there's been a lot of fraud with Oklahoma. So those who are in Oklahoma, there's going to be further steps that we would have to do in order for anyone who's in Oklahoma to come to our program. And we'll learn more as that develops come January 1st of next year. But if you are looking for treatment in Los Angeles and you are part of the community, please check us out online and give us a call and we'll see if we'd be able to help you.

Yeah. So if If I'm going into sober living, I get to talk to the owner.

Yes, still very much so. Andrew and I are just not physically at the house doing the day-to-day anymore. We have an amazing team that works there. We have 2 out of house. I would love to interact with all of our clients, as would Andrew, but it was a needed sacrifice that we needed When we opened our treatment center. And the reason for that was, if there was ever any issues at the house, we wanted our clients, if they're in our sober living and came to our program, to speak freely and not feel like, oh my God, the owners are here. So we really wanted them to focus on their treatment. If they are a resident of the house and here, we have a very straightforward conversation about professional boundaries. When I'm at the office, you are in program. You're there to get better and work on yourself. I do not want to hear about any household drama. Neither does Andrew. We have an amazing head of house who handles that. But anything that's financial related or family related, we have an open-door policy here. And we don't get to share personally as much as we used to. because of our new roles, but, um, we still, we still care about all of them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's your next move? Are there next move expansion plans here? Expansion?

No, we're taking it one day at a time here. Um, well, you've got a lot going on. We do. Um, unrelated to Ringo Hill Recovery and sober living, I launched my nonprofit nonprofit Big Little Bows a couple of months ago, which is a 501, and it's a mentorship program for gay, bi, trans, non-binary, questioning teens that are 15 to 17 years old to be mentored by their adult counterparts that have 2 or more years of sobriety.

Wow.

Money that we help raise will help individuals get into LGBT-affirming sober livings.

Okay.

And treatment, because there's a huge misconception that insurance covers housing and it does not. So we would be a really good resource for anyone who is seeking financial assistance and would qualify for our program.

Wow, that's wonderful. And you'll send me the link? You have a website or something?

Yes.

Yeah, yeah. So insurance doesn't ever cover sober living, is that true? In any case?

Okay. No. Okay, good to know.

All right. Okay, listeners, if you have questions or you want to share your experience about sober living or treatment, I'd love to hear it. You can start a conversation on our YouTube channel, the the podcast YouTube channel. People do look at that. You can add a thread underneath the video, or you can add comments on Spotify. But I'd like to you know if you oh you can also join in by the way Facebook. Page. We have an Aftermath Podcast Facebook page that we have a lot of discussions on there, uh, which we— I started a discussion today about sober living and people are joining in and we're talking about each other's experiences, which is where I got some of my information, horror story information. Um, yeah, so there you go. Uh, but yeah, I would love to hear from you and you can email me if you have questions for Joey or Steven. You just— you can— I'll put their information in the show notes or If you have questions, you can post them on YouTube and I'll get them to them. So thank you very much, gentlemen. I appreciate this very, very much. Appreciate your time.

Thank you.