EP 1:46: Healing Sexual Shame After Meth with Steven

Hey y'all. Today we are talking about a topic that I'm asked about almost daily, and that is sexual shame. Man after man after man tell me that their first experience with crystal meth magically melted away all of their sexual shame that had been built up over their life and brought the state of being they had been searching for forever, which was freedom. To have freedom to explore their desires with another man without insecurity or pressure or guilt. Look, I get it. I've been there. Then you spend the rest of your meth experience chasing that euphoria. But guess what? You just added a whole new layer of shame by doing crystal meth. It is quite the loop we get caught in. But guys, there is hope and healing for you after meth. But it doesn't come easily. We like meth because it's instant gratification. And well, you see where that got you. Healing shame, recovering your arousal and sexual template, and discovering intimacy is a journey. And what will help you is to get out of your mind that, I'm never gonna have Tina I'll never have sex again. Because yes, that's true, but it doesn't have to be said in a defeatist and a mourning way. It can be said as radical acceptance of the past and excitement for the new types of sex you can have. And Dr. Davidson says it begins in the line at Starbucks. Mindfulness, awareness, stillness— all of the opposites of tweaking. There is where your sexual healing begins That's where you'll find it. So I hope you enjoy this episode.

When they get in recovery, now meth is no longer the solution. And we have to find some new ways to dealing with those uncomfortable emotions and those negative thoughts around their sexuality.

Welcome to the After Meth Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population. And create a repository of resources for current and past addicts, as well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermath. Trigger warning: this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey, and you feel like you could be triggered by discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, please do not listen to this podcast. All right, now on with the show. Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast. I am so glad you're here. I am so grateful for those of you who are listening, for those of you who are catching and discovering the podcast for the first time. I so much love your messages, and I want you to please feel free to DM me. Please know though that I I am getting a ton of DMs. I'm hiring help next week to give me some more capacity so I can answer all the DMs. But those of you that are reaching out and saying, "Wow, I just discovered this podcast. I did not know that there was one out there like it. This is exactly what I needed to hear." Um, this podcast helps me, uh, curb my cravings. This podcast helps me to be seen and heard as a gay man that, um, who is suffering from crystal meth addiction. Those of you that are family members that are like, thankfully I get some kind of guide to the nuances of this addiction that's really helping me understand how to help my loved one, please continue to give me that feedback because that is the currency that I need to continue doing what I'm doing. This podcast does not make any money yet. We don't have sponsors or anything like that. But I mean, you're welcome to send me some. But in the meantime, I will take your DMs as currency because that really does touch my heart. And I am honored to bring it to you. This week, we are talking to Dr. Stephen Davidson. He is a sexual integrity coach. We're going to dive into shame first and then just see where that discussion leads us. But I will say, you know, when I ask guys who contact me who are having trouble with this addiction, what is— what brought you to it? You know, what, what brings— what takes you back? And a lot of times they'll say sex, or I'm horny, or I want a good time sexually. But what happens is, and if you have experience with this drug, you know, after a while the sex goes away, but you keep doing it. You keep going back. And there's a reason for that. And my theory is almost 100% of the time it goes back to shame. Shame in some form. So I want to, I want to dive in with that. But before we do, I'm going to introduce our guest, our very credible guest, Dr. Stephen Davidson. He is a clinical sexologist in Wilton Manors, Florida. He offers sex therapy and sex coaching to individuals and couples at his office or virtually. He is the author of Sexual Integrity: Finding The Courage to Be Yourself, as well as Peaceful Mind, Peaceful Life: The Guidebook to Happiness. I need to get both of those, by the way. I really do. I'm going to read them. He hosts a weekly sex education channel on YouTube titled The Sexual Integrity Coach, which is where I found Dr. Stephen Davidson, on YouTube. I really— I started to— I was looking at the— the videos stood out. I think it was something like, uh, butt stuff, something like that. Really caught my eye. I was like, huh? And then I started watching your videos. Dr. Davidson, and I was just like, yes, this is who I need to interview. And then I chased you down. So welcome to the Aftermath Podcast.

Thank you. I really appreciate that you chased me down, and I know how important those DMs are, and that's how we found each other. So I'm, uh, very honored to be on your podcast today.

Thank you. Thank you. So let's just dive right in. And get down to 101 in terms of, first of all, what is sexual integrity? Because you know what, I don't see those 2 words together very often. So what does that mean to you?

Well, integrity means that we are being authentic. It means that we are walking our talk, that our words are in sync with our actions. And sexual integrity means that we are being authentic as sexual beings. We are presenting ourselves in a way that's honest. We are confident in our sexuality. We're confident in our bodies. We have clarity about who we are as sexual beings. And we are honest with other people about what we need, what we want in sexual relationships. So sexual integrity in In my field of sex therapist is a phrase that we talk about often. Over the last 20 years, we've been talking more about things like mindfulness, authenticity, and just in psychology in general. And so that has also made its way into sexology. And we are talking with our clients about ways that they can be more mindful about their sexual behavior. just more self-aware as a sexual being. Hmm.

Well, yeah. Those listening to this podcast are coming out of a meth addiction. And it doesn't have to be recent. It doesn't have to be current. It could be, it could be years down the road. I hear from, from men all the time saying, it's been 5 years abstinent from crystal meth, and I still haven't had sex. Yeah. And I don't know how to start. And there's no way sex is possible for me after experiencing it with crystal meth. And so if I were to come to you, how do I even begin to be authentic and reconnect with myself?

Well, we have to look at who were you before crystal meth? And the men that I work with who are in recovery generally say that they didn't feel good about themselves sexually before they started using.

Mm-hmm.

Maybe there was shame, maybe there was body dysmorphia, perhaps they had a lot of performance anxiety or just anxiety about how to meet people, how to relax, how to feel comfortable in the presence of other people. And So now we're having to go back and look at what were those issues before you started using.

Mm-hmm.

And when people start using, sometimes the meth looks like it's a solution because they feel more confident, they feel less anxious, they have more energy, they're able to engage in things sexually that previously might have created a lot of anxiety or maybe even repulsion. For them, and now they can engage more freely. So when they get in recovery, now meth is no longer the solution. And we have to find some new ways to dealing with those uncomfortable emotions and those negative thoughts around their sexuality.

Hmm, yeah. So good question is, yeah, what, what, what did I struggle with before? And I do hear this a lot too, is I have— I'm so shy, I'm so inhibited. without crystal meth, right? When I, when I go to have sex. And I'm assuming back to what I just said that, that a lot of that has to do with shame, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. Can you talk to us about what is shame? And what is the difference between shame and guilt?

Guilt is a normal emotional reaction to our belief that we have done something that has been harmful to someone else, ourselves, or has created some kind of problem. It is specific to a situation. Shame is the overall belief that we didn't just do a bad thing, but we are bad. We are a bad person. We are bad to the core. There's something wrong with us. There's something about us that is damaged. And gay men generally learn shame real early in life because we start getting subtle messages early on from people around us who might not mean any harm, but they, they don't interact with us in a way that really mirrors our perception of ourself, or they have a reaction that is to our unique expression of our sexual individuality that is getting manifested through our expression of gender or just, you know, the way we behave, the way we're moving our body. And so shame begins very early in the life for gay men in a way that little boys who are heterosexual are not shamed in the same way for their sexual expression, their gender expression.

Hmm. Yeah. So an example would be, you throw like a girl, right?

Yeah. Boys don't cry. Boys shouldn't dance. Boys don't dress like that. Don't, don't wear that loud color. Don't play with that toy. These are Subtle messages that little boys get real early on. If we are stepping outside the norm of what's expected for cisgender males.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, because, you know, I've said this before, people maybe, maybe get tired of me repeating, but maybe they like me repeating. I'm not sure. But The reason you're doing myth a lot of times can be if you peel back the layers and backtrack and the constellation that got you to where you are, a lot of times it's a 30-second comment. You know, like for me, something like— and I've said this before— my dad said, I don't think you're my real son, to me, right? And paired with You throw like a girl, or why are you walking like that? I mean, one question, why are you walking like that, can just damage you in such a way, right? The message is I'm abnormal and something, something's wrong with me.

And that, that thing that's wrong with you is innately who you are. And we can't change it. You know, it gets called out in a way that it develops core beliefs that we are not okay the way we are.

Yeah.

And then that core belief follows us into adolescence and adulthood. And it's the background music to every interaction we have with another person. I'm not okay the way I am.

Hmm. Yeah. And I would say that background music plays louder in a sexual situation, right?

Because we naturally feel more vulnerable in those situations.

Yeah. Yeah. It's not okay to be who I am. It's also not okay to pursue maybe my sexual interests, or fetishes or kinks or something like that. Right?

Right. Absolutely. And, you know, men are very different sexual creatures from women. So men in general, gay men, straight men, tend to have kinks and fetishes and, you know, lots of different things that arouse us, turn us on, that are erotically exciting to us. I say that Victoria's Secret, Frederick's of Hollywood, Hollywood Hustler, they all built their entire business empires on the kinks and fetishes of mostly straight men.

Yeah. Yeah. So I guess Andrew Christian built theirs on maybe the kinks of gay men. Interesting. Yeah. So, and this is no secret if you're a meth user. So when you use meth, you feel free to be yourself. I know I did. You know, that's, that's what the lure was. It was like, oh, I'm finally— I, I don't have any inhibitions here, right? You know, I can, I can, I can do all these things. I can explore without any, any guilt or shame until the comedown, right?

Right.

And then it's, it's, it's piled on higher and higher and higher, right? Okay, so if I If I were to begin a process of, I know I have shame, I don't exactly know where it's from or how to fix it and how it's showing up in my life. Could you give us some, some, some questions to ask or a process or tips or tricks for us to begin that process of healing?

Yeah, I coach people to identify what the things are that are erotically exciting For them, and sometimes it might be kinks or fetishes. And then we talk about how they— what their beliefs are about those things. And often they have negative beliefs. A belief like, this is not normal. There's something wrong with me. I shouldn't be enjoying this. This is— people are going to think I'm weird or strange. And so Beliefs like that cause us to start keeping secrets. And when we have those secrets, we don't enter into sexual relationships in a way that's authentic. So, um, crystal meth, other substances might help remove those inhibitions so that now we can engage in these things that we naturally enjoy, but we can do them without the same degree of shame. So we start by just looking at, well, who are you authentically as a sexual person? What is it that you like? I do a lot of education with people about how what is just kind of natural and normal biology, things that we don't learn in school about sexuality, but we have very innate primal drives to engage in sexual behavior. And there's some biological reasons that we do some of the things that we do. There are also some psychological reasons that we engage in some of our sexual behavior, and it's, you know, kind of our individual psychology that fuels the kinks and fetishes. Sometimes we can identify how a kink or fetish developed, but often we cannot, and it doesn't really matter because identifying it doesn't make it go away. And maybe it's not really problematic or consequential anyway. So, you know, if, if your fetish is that you like to wear cowboy boots, what's the consequence in that? Certain places in the country where lots of people are wearing cowboy boots, and they're not even thinking about it. So, you know, if that turns you on, then Why carry that kind of shame around it? It's not really problematic. It's not consequential. A lot of our kinks and fetishes, interestingly, don't include any kind of genital stimulation at all.

Hmm.

Kinks and fetishes around certain kinds of behavior, or, you know, certain kinds of objects that we eroticize. often don't even involve genital stimulation. So through education, people become more aware that the thing that they have felt so much shame about really doesn't have any consequences for anyone other than they have been carrying these negative beliefs that are not even their own.

Yeah.

They're messages they got from someone else.

Right, right. Like a father who says, you, you throw like a girl, right?

Yeah, yeah.

And that becomes this belief that I'm not normal, and I carry for the rest of my life. And of course, you know, so I wear— I like to wear cowboy boots during sex. How'd you know that, by the way? No, I'm just joking. Um, you know, so if I like to wear cowboy boots during sex, but I believe it's not normal, right? It's something that somebody's going to laugh at or think I'm a freak or something like that. How do I go about changing that belief? How do I flip it over to this is completely normal, this is authentically me, I'm going to wear my cowboy boots with pride?

Well, I say you find people who like you wearing your cowboy boots. In the book Sexual Integrity, I call it finding your tribe.

Okay.

But, you know, we're not really that as sexually unique and different as we think we are. Whatever your kink or fetish is, there are, you know, literally thousands of other people who share it. And And there are people who may not share it, but they are kink friendly, and they're okay with people having a fetish or kink that they don't have.

Yeah.

I really want people to get more comfortable just being honest and saying, hey, if we're going to have sex, I'm going to keep my boots on. You know, I hope that's alright with you. If it's not, then You know, we'll have to renegotiate this. Yeah.

Yeah. What would you say though, to somebody who is so insecure that they— it's kind of almost a people-pleasing thing that they would say, okay, I just won't wear my boots. You know, just have sex with me. If you're willing to have sex with me, I'll take it. But I'm taking my boots off because you don't like it. Like, what about that negotiation? Because I see that a lot too with, with guys who— I mean, basically, when you're coming out of meth, you're rewriting everything sexually, right? You've been obliterated. And so you sometimes feel so desperate that you'll, you'll negotiate with yourself and betray your authenticity just to get the attention, right?

Yeah.

Do you see that?

I do see that. And I think you have to assess that from one encounter to another. And so negotiation means that we're trying to figure out what can work for both of us.

Mm-hmm.

And if the other person really doesn't want it, and they say, you know, I do want to have a sexual experience with you, but I don't want to have that kind of sexual experience, then we have some choice. Are we going to negotiate that in this encounter? But it doesn't mean we have to negotiate away what we want in every encounter.

Gotcha.

And things like kinks and fetishes for most men are not exclusive. It's not the only way we can have erotic pleasure. It's just this enhances the erotic experience a little more. We can still engage with people erotically in other ways.

Okay, in what ways would those— would that be, or could you give us some examples?

Well, people who like kinks and fetishes might also like vanilla sex. Okay, yeah, you know, I can engage with you in some kind of vanilla play without the kink or fetish. If I could keep my boots on, I would probably like it a whole lot more, but Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Knocking Boots. I keep hearing that sound and that song in my head now. Old one. Um, okay, so back to what you're saying about what's erotically exciting for me. And so some people know this right away. Some people like me don't, right? Like, so I took almost all of my 6 years of sobriety off, basically. I mean, I had sex, but it was, you know, here and there and in the back of a car, stuff like that, because I was focused on my kids, right? I needed to get the kids regulated, normalized, out the door, right? And so I was so, you know, and then before that, I was married to a woman, and, you know, I, I didn't know I'm still learning about what do I— what erotically excites me. And so the way that I'm discovering that is through mindful masturbation. What are some other ways that you would tell me if I were your client? Like, I don't know what excites me. What are some ways for us to kind of— we have a clean slate and we want to know what direction we want to go in?

Yeah, I guess I would take that mindfulness out into the world and just notice, what do I find attractive when I'm walking down the street, when I'm at Starbucks, when I'm just out interacting with people in the world?

Okay.

What things do I see that I think are, uh, erotically attractive?

Okay.

And it's— it might not just be about things that you see. It might be about tactile sensations that you experience on your body.

Mm-hmm.

It might be olfactory sensations, scents that you smell. And so, you know, we, we have pheromones that we can experience from other people even unconsciously. But sometimes we might be really aware of a natural body scent that we find erotically exciting. And it doesn't have to be overpowering. It can be just the natural scent of being next to another person.

Hmm.

So, you know, sometimes people find— I'll use cigar smoke as an example. They find it erotic.

Yeah.

And so when they smell cigar smoke, they think about a man who's smoking cigars. And then there's a visual image that comes to mind of what that man looks like. And so let's go with that. Let's keep You know, building on that fantasy in your mind that is fueled by just these natural things that you notice out in the environment.

Hmm, interesting. I hadn't really thought about this, the olfactory part of that.

Well, you know, we experience sex with all of our senses. Hmm, yeah, which is why it's so important that we have face-to-face encounters with people real time and not just virtual experiences of sexuality. Because our brain is recording all of that. What we see, what we hear, their tone of voice, how they move their body, presence.

Yeah.

All of that is we are picking up and we are noticing. Erotically, and we miss a lot of that in the virtual realm.

Almost all of it. Yeah, I mean, and that's why you— that's why sometimes you, you can chat for hours with somebody on an app and even sometimes talk on— talk with them on the phone or even FaceTime. I have. And then when you meet them in person, it's a complete different vibe.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah.

So you may have noticed that I have a Tennessee accent.

Yeah.

And some people really like my Tennessee accent and others don't. But if I'm just communicating with you, you know, in the virtual realm and you don't ever hear my voice, you don't know whether you like it or not. And so sometimes when we look at a photo, we— of someone on their profile picture, we might see things in that photo that we find erotically arousing or not. But when we get to actually have an encounter with them, there are things that we find erotically arousing about them that we could never pick up from a photo.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And vice versa, which is, if you hear my story, one of the things that— one of the things that happened to me quite often, it actually still does happen recently, actually, um, is that guys look at my profile pictures. So I'm on Hinge, a dating app, Hinge. Um, my profile pictures, for whatever reason, give off straight-acting dom dad, you know. And I don't— I honestly don't try. It's not like I'm in a, you know, I'm not in a harness or, you know, I'm not trying. It's just— I, I guess it's just the way I look. I don't know. I, I don't try to portray that. Um, and I used to on my, my profile. My first line was, I'm not as masculine as I look, you know. But then that just became a shame thing for me.

Yeah.

You know, that was me wearing my shame on my sleeve, really. Um, but so then when a lot of times in the very beginning, I would get rejected a lot because I would show up to the Grindr hookup and they'd be like, oh, you're not, you're not masculine like I thought you were. You're too feminine for me. Um, and so I was like, okay, I've spent my entire life trying to hide my effeminate nature. And now that I'm gay, I still have to hide it. Um, but I didn't, you know, I couldn't see the big picture at the time, which was some guys like that, some guys don't, right? And you're, you're such a crapshoot when you're on Grindr because, like you said, you're looking at photos. You, you can't help but to create your own persona of somebody from a photo, right?

Right.

I wouldn't look at your photo and think, oh, he's, he's going to have a Tennessee draw, you know. You know, and the same with me. And so, um, I, I just think especially for you, crystal meth addict or recovering, in recovery, is that use your 5 senses. I love this. Using the 5 senses is really what a great way to rewrite your sexual template. The sound, the sight, the smell, the feel. I mean, all of that. What did I miss? Sound, sight, taste, smell, feel, taste. How did I forget that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, using the 5 senses in a really mindful way, really, right? Could really rebuild and kind of rewrite what you like.

Right. And mindfulness just means to be aware, to be in observation, to notice. And to notice yourself without judgment. I like this. I'm just going to notice that I like it. I'm not going to judge myself for liking it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, when we are not in sexual integrity, when we're trying to pretend that we are someone else, when we're trying to hide who we are, we are missing the opportunities to be with people who would love us exactly as we are. And it's another reason to think about who am I authentically and finding the courage to just be yourself. Because that's when you're going to find the people who like you and are attracted to you as you are, not as something that you are pretending to be.

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Because yeah, people, you're selling a version of yourself, a false version of yourself.

Yeah.

Especially if it's in a, you know, a dating relationship, somebody you're planning to see over and over.

Right. Yeah, if it's, you know, a one-time hookup, and we don't think we're ever going to see that person again, then playing that role might be, might be fun. But you know, the longer we're with them, Eventually, they're going to discover who we really are. And it's going to get tiresome trying to keep up the act.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can speak from that, from experience on that, you know, because there was a time when I'm like, well, fuck it, I'm just Dom Daddy, right? I'm just gonna have to— so I'll show up and not— I won't speak, you know, I'm just going to choke you and do whatever you— whatever it is you need. You know, and I did that. But again, it's like I know I can't see them again because little do they know my biggest fantasy is I just want to cuddle. I just want somebody. I just want to touch somebody, you know. And then maybe that could come later. But but yeah, when you you're not your authentic self, and it didn't feel right either, right? I mean, I mean, I can. I mean, I'm mainly— this is all— I'm turning this into all about me today. I don't know why, sorry. But, you know, I'm mainly a top now, but that doesn't mean, you know, that I— but it still feels like, you know, there's, there's such a role you have to play. But there's got to be somebody who doesn't mind me being me, like, you know, as the top, and this is also me, and I'm not that. Right? I mean, there's got to be people out there who like that, right?

And, you know, our sexuality has some fluidity to it. And so we're not the same sexual being today that we were 10 years ago or 20 years ago. There's lots of different things that influence that. And so, you know, maybe you can lean into a certain kind of sexual energy with one person, but being in a relationship with another person brings out a different aspect of your sexuality. So we can have manifestations of different kinds of erotic energy based on the context of the situation we're in and the person that we are with, and we can enjoy all of that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, I just got a comment today on a, on a video and this guy said, you know, he said, I will never enjoy sex again. Yeah, it was on Instagram and he was like, I'll never do it, I'll never enjoy it again. And I just think, really though, what an opportunity to, to start over and what, how fun to explore this.

Right, and explain, expand your ideas of what sex is.

Right.

So, um, you know, uh, early in my career, I worked with lots of straight people around sexuality. And you may have heard me say on my YouTube channel that straight people often think they're not having sex unless there is a penis in a vagina. And they can be doing all kinds of other things, but until that penis has penetrated the vagina, they are not having sex. And some gay men can be that way about anal penetration. They, they think of everything else as foreplay, or they think of it as, you know, just messing around. They don't think of it as sex. Um, Dr. Joe Court talks about— and I think he just has a book come out about sexual sides.

Okay.

And, you know, aside are those guys who then Oh yeah. Or bottom.

Yeah, right.

You know, there are other things that they enjoy. Maybe they enjoy mutual masturbation or oral sex or other kinds of sexual activity that's not penetrative. So expand your mind around what sex means for you. Through your mindful masturbation, solo sex can be incredibly enjoyable. Yeah, because it gets to be all about you. Yeah, you can go anywhere with your mind that you want to go with it.

Yeah.

And, and through our solo sexual experiences, we have a lot of biofeedback. So controlling how our body is touched, where our body is touched, we know those erotic places on our body, those erogenous zones. We know how much pressure, how fast, how much friction. You know, we, we know ourselves in that way that no one else can know us. And so let's not diminish solo sex and the power of that and the pleasure that can come from that. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And that's also sex.

And it's also sex. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Um, yeah, I love sex that's all about me. Um, but I think you make a really good point, and it's something that I don't think that I do— I'm not doing a good job of explaining when I say mindful masturbation, because men will come back to me and say, that was the worst thing I've ever tried to do, you know, tried to come without the porn, you know. And, and I'm That's not the point, though. For one thing, the objective is not to come.

Right.

The objective doesn't even have to be to get hard. It's like you're saying, explore your body, pressure, and like, like you said, pressure and how fast things go and how's it feel and where and just really get to know yourself again, because If you have done crystal meth, you are totally disconnected with your body and what truly feels good. Right, right.

And that self-exploration is a really safe way to begin, um, and touching all parts of your body. And gay men are generally better at this than straight men. We are more accustomed to having our bodies touched in exploratory ways that many straight men never experience. So, you know, that's one of the benefits of being gay and being in sexual experiences with other gay men.

Mm-hmm.

But, you know, something that's really benign is the inside of our arm. We have greater nerve endings here than we do on the outside of the arm.

Oh yeah.

If you touch the inside of the arm with your fingers very lightly, it's a different experience than if you touch here. And for some people, this feels very sensual and very erotic.

Yeah, okay.

Same thing is true on the inside of the thighs. And we don't usually think of our forearm and our, our upper legs as being erogenous zones or being parts of the body that are connected to our sexuality. The higher concentration of nerve endings makes them more responsive to that tactile stimulation.

Hmm, I love that. Yeah. So somebody asked you what you into, that old question, what you into? I want you to stroke the inside of my arm.

Well, and the cowboy boots.

Yeah, and my cowboy boots.

He looks specific with it.

Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. Yeah, you talk about straight men talk about shame, though. I mean, I mean, I'm assuming like, if I'm a straight man, I probably think it's, quote unquote, gay to explore my body. You know, I'm thinking they're probably— they have a complex shame situation that they're dealing with.

Right, right. And so, you know, gay men commonly explore their nipples, their anus, their testicles, their armpits, all kinds of places on their body that can become eroticized and erotically stimulated in ways that straight men generally don't experience that Because women don't really— they're not— they don't get aroused by playing with a man's nipples. Um, they, they might not get aroused by his armpits.

Yeah.

You know, they're not going to want to engage him in anal stimulation. Some women do, but mostly not. And Yeah. Many, many men say that they don't have these kinds of experiences in relationships with women. Some men I've worked with who identify as straight, who have played with other men, say that it's one of the things that they experienced in that play with men that they never experienced in play with women. You might still identify as straight, but it gives them some different sexual experiences that they wouldn't have otherwise in their life.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting, I hear a lot of— from straight men contacting me asking, am I gay? You know, because they used crystal meth and explored with other men.

Yeah.

Um, and it's interesting too, the women's response to that is very— in my experience has been very shameful toward their husbands, right?

Yes.

It seems to be a lot more accepted if a woman plays around with a woman, but when a man plays around with a man, it's an abomination or something like that. You know, a straight man, it's like, is he gay? What's wrong with him? Is something— you know, am I not pleasing him? But, but then it just— it seems like it's a different case if the woman plays around with the woman, but Again, that's anecdotally, but, but I do know that there's so many men out there, straight, straight men who identify as straight, who are traumatized and very guilt-ridden, right, for what they did.

Right. And straight men carry a lot of shame for the same reasons gay men do. And so, you know, just like that example you used earlier, why are you walking like that? Yeah, straight men get those messages. Too. Uh, it's why they then turn around and shame their gay sons or shame other gay people, because they've been held accountable to the same expectations that we've been held accountable to. And anytime they didn't match up to, um, you know, the expectations of masculinity, they have also been called out for it. It's just gay men get called out for it more often. And, and because we are gay, and we know what the object of our attraction is, other men, we internalize it more.

Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you know, or what, how do you help men who are, I don't know if suffering is the right word, but they're experiencing Um, internalized homophobia, because there's quite a bit of that in the, the meth crowd. Um, you know, that, that they— that, that the time that, again, they feel free to explore themselves sexually with meth, um, but they keep going back because there's something about that that blocks out this homophobia that they're feeling. All throughout their sober life, right?

Well, internalized homophobia is a result of shame, and I consider shaming someone to be abuse. So shame is not something that we want to use to modify inappropriate behavior in children. You don't want to shame them to the core of their personality. You want to redirect that behavior, but you don't want to shame Everything about who they are as an individual. So some of what I do with people is trauma work to look at how those negative core beliefs originated so early in their life. And, you know, internalized homophobia is also sexism. It's internalized sexism about how men are supposed to behave.

Hmm.

And not behaving in the ways that are expected of men. And one of those behaviors is not being attracted to other men because that's considered to be effeminate. So doing some trauma work, again, a lot of education, looking at the early messages people got in life that likely came from other people who were carrying a lot of shame.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, you know, when you think about, um, the shame that, that carries throughout family history, uh, it just gets passed, passed down generationally. It's not even your shame anymore. It was your great-grandfather's shame, and he passed it down, and he passed it down. And, uh, sometimes people, uh, when they start working on their shame and we look at where did this originate, We also find ourselves talking about, well, how did your parents come to have that belief? What did their grandparents teach them?

Hmm.

You know, where in the world did they grow up? What was happening at that unique time in history that caused this to become a belief that your parent had or a behavior that they engaged in or they expected, they required? which might've been very adaptive at their unique time in life, in history, in the context of where they live, but it's not applicable now for you as an individual in present day.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if we're experiencing some type of intergenerational shame, where do we start there? How do we know? And where do we start? I mean, I guess I guess we could spin our wheels trying to figure out the whys and the whos and the whats, right? So how do we move forward out of it?

Yeah, we start right now in the present with ourself. Okay. So, you know, just like some of the recovery language, keep it simple. First things first, one day at a time, do the next right thing. Stay in your own lane. Let's pull it close in. Because it's within ourselves that we have the greatest control and power. The further out we get to our parents, our grandparents, back through history, we don't have the power to change any of that. And none of that matters anymore. All that really matters is what's happening with you right now in the present. So that's where we start.

Yeah. Yeah. With everyday decisions. Right, right. Because I heard you say healing shame is a journey, right? It's interesting that a few comments as a child can cause damage that cause— that will make— take a lifetime to heal from. So it's a journey, but like— but you said bring it back to each day. So what do you— what are some practices that you suggest that we could do each day to start this journey and to keep it going?

Well, I'm going to name it mindfulness again.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's just observing your thoughts, observing your emotions. When you have a thought, asking yourself for the evidence that that thought is true.

That's a good one.

And if that thought is true, what are the consequences of that that I can identify in my life? Um, so, which is, you know, cognitive behavior therapy involves people challenging their belief system, right? Uh, and that's why I said, let's look for the evidence. Yeah. Um, yeah, let's look, let's look for the evidence to the contrary.

Yep.

A real common negative belief, negative core belief is, I'm not good enough.

Yeah.

Well, let's look for the evidence of that in your life. Let's look for the evidence of those times that you were good enough and maybe you just didn't accept it. So people who have this negative belief, I'm not good enough, anytime they get a compliment from someone, they dismiss it. They immediately discredit it. Well, here's your evidence. Someone else stepped up and validated you. Here's something I like about you. Here's something positive or good about you. And you dismissed it. And you dismissed it because it was not in alignment with your negative core belief.

Hmm.

And so if we are mindfulness in the moment, We're going to be aware of those times that we are shutting down the evidence that's contrary to those negative beliefs, the opportunities for us to heal right there in that present moment and begin to develop some beliefs that are more realistic and more adaptive.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Good.

And one more question here. Well, I have 2 more questions, but the last question is intimacy and vulnerability. It's difficult for us sometimes. Well, well, let me, let me go back. There was something, a benefit that I got out of my crystal meth addiction, and that was being vulnerable with my body in terms of like when you get to the party, get to the house, wherever you're, you know, even if it's a one going to one person, you just take your clothes off when you walk in the door. I mean, I don't know about anybody else, that's what I did. This is just immediate, right? And before that, you know, when I was married, when I came out at 36, no one had seen me naked besides my kids, my wife, and my doctor. No one had seen me with my shirt off, you know. And so in that crystal meth scene, I got so comfortable with my body You know, and so I did get that out of it. However, then I equated it with meth, right? And so my idea of intimacy was was perverted, was was kind of screwed up. And so I thought when I was dating sober sober dating, I just thought we had to get naked right away. You know, we needed to have sex right away. So. I guess my question to you would be, do you have any tips for us who want to reestablish intimacy or feel intimacy and vulnerability for the first time?

Well, intimacy and erotic desire are 2 different concepts, and people often mesh the 2 or talk about the 2 as if they're the same thing. We can have intimate relationships with other people that are never sexual. And it just means that we are vulnerable with those people. We allow them to see us in ways that are authentic. We, we trust them, uh, when we share our thoughts with them or share our emotions with them. And that's what vulnerability is. It's, it's being seen authentically.

Yeah.

Being witnessed authentically by another person. It is vulnerability. And we have to have that kind of vulnerability in order to develop intimacy, to develop an intimate bond with another person or loving relationship. We have to be willing to be vulnerable. So, you know, we got to, we got to feel safe doing that, or otherwise we're not going to do it.

Right.

So some sexual exchanges are just sex, and some are sex and intimacy.

Mm-hmm.

You know, again, being mindful, knowing what am I experiencing here with this person in this moment? Is it just sexual gratification? Is it just physical gratification? Or am I also experiencing an emotional connection with this person. And we can have emotional connections that are generated by sexual activity. Penetration, for example, is something that increases vulnerability.

Yeah.

And potentially can feel more intimate than just mutual masturbation with another person.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay.

Do you feel like I answered your question then?

Yes. Yes, you did. You did. You did ask my question. You did answer my question. I was just, I was just kind of taking note of I need to really put myself more in the shoes of these men because Everything we're talking about here, it's a lot. You know, it's a, it's a lot to, to undertake, you know, to be vulnerable, to find your erotic— what excites you erotically, to explore with men, to feel safe, to, you know, to be yourself. This is a lot.

Yeah.

To, to take on for an individual. So I'm just, I'm just reflecting on I think I'm taking it— I'm not taking it into consideration when I'm working with men enough to take it slow, right? Slow, right? And be patient with yourself. One thing at a time.

Yeah. On my YouTube channel, you may have heard me make recommendations for an organization called the Body Electric School.

Yes, yes.

I think 40 years. I think they're celebrating their 40th anniversary. But this is an organization that teaches mindful erotic energy, how to be aware, how to be present and connected to your erotic energy in ways that are sober.

Yeah.

So they have workshops that last anywhere from 2 days to a week. Uh, they have an introductory workshop that you have to go through first before you can do any of their others. But these are workshops that, um, teach men about erotic energy, um, how to get comfortable with being vulnerable, um, and, and it's all sober.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, drugs and alcohol are not allowed at these experiences. They are also facilitated. So it's not like a sex party where you just walk in and, you know, I hope you find someone who will talk to you, play with you. Um, these are structured facilitated experiences. Um, so Body Electric School, I think their website's bodyelectric.org.

Yeah.

A place to get some hands-on, um, educational experience that is experiential education that can help you get more comfortable in your body. And begin to develop some different ways of thinking about your erotic energy.

Yeah. Yes. I think you and I spoke about them before when we talked a long time ago, and I took a note and didn't, didn't look them up, but I definitely will now. That's— yeah, I— everything I've heard about the Body Electric School is just so great. So yes, yes, I'll try to put the link in the show notes for this. Thank Thank you for, thank you for that.

Sure.

So, Dr. Stephen Davidson, what have I missed today? What have I not asked that you wish I had of? Or is there something, a topic, um, something that I missed that I had a blind spot over that you'd like to bring up in this podcast?

Um, well, I can't think of anything. There's not anything that strikes me right now that we've missed. I think we've talked about some really important stuff today. What I say to the men I work with who are in recovery is the most important thing is that you stay sober. And the rest of this we can, we can make progress on, but you're going to have to stay sober for us to be able to do the work. Yeah.

Yes. Yes. And I'll remind you listeners, studies show, I just read a new study today, takes a year to get your mind, your brain back completely back. A year of abstinence from crystal meth. Not to say that, you know, you won't be functioning, uh, pretty close to normal before then, but an entire year, your brain starts to scan and it's functioning on all cylinders. So the more you can abstain, the better. And like, like Stephen said, stay— get sober so that you can begin to To, to work on all these things. And I, I would just not— I would just hope that you don't feel overwhelmed, but— and you don't give up. And, and just, just try to accept that you're going to love sex again, that it's not out of the question, that yes, sex on meth was so fucking great, but that doesn't mean it's the only kind of fucking great sex you can have.

Mm-hmm.

But guess what? You have to work on it, work for it. Crystal meth is a shortcut, and anything worth having is going to take work. So there you go. Thank you so much, Dr. Davidson, for being here. I appreciate this. We're going to put the— I'll put the links to your site and your books in the show notes as well if you'd like to check out Dr. Steven Davidson's books.

Thank you.

You can do that. I don't know why I keep using your entire full name, but, um, you know, check out those books, check out his site. And if you're, you know, well, you can, you can be virtual too and get your services, right? You could be anywhere around the world and still get your coaching and therapy, right?

Right. So therapy is different from coaching. I have coaching clients, um, in some other countries and several other states, but Psychotherapy is real specific to states that you are licensed in.

Okay, gotcha. Gotcha.

So when men reach out to me, I do make that differentiation for them.

Yes.

And if they need a therapist in their state, I, I help them find someone who has similar training to myself.

Good. Okay, great. Great. Thank you for that. Thank you for that. Okay, if you want to connect with us, you know how to do it. You can rate and review the podcast anywhere you listen to your favorite podcast. You can leave a comment on Spotify, and now we have video on Spotify as well. And you can watch us on YouTube, and on YouTube you can start a discussion. We also have a Facebook page, the Aftermath Podcast Facebook page. You can engage in there. There's a lot within the Facebook page. There's a lot of discussion questions that we have every day that's not around the podcast. There's a lot of support. You know, we have someone on there recently who is getting back to the gym in his sobriety, and getting back to the gym has triggered something new. He wants to cruise again. Cruising, uh, was what he did on meth. And so now he has this new trigger that he's working with just by going to the gym and trying to better himself. So he was in the Facebook group asking for help. With that. So we support each other too. And if you're a loved one of a crystal meth addict or crystal meth— someone in crystal meth recovery, you're welcome to join the group as well for support. With that, we will see you guys next week. Bye.