EP 1:47: Healing Religious Shame After Meth with Eric

Hey y'all, this week's discussion is one of those deep ones that you might want to listen to more than once. Many, if not most of you who contact me for help are dealing with religious trauma. I have clients who are Christian, Muslim, Mennonite, and Mormon. All of these guys have had to bury parts of themselves in order to please family or culture. And that shame builds up over time and manifests into a life of self-rejection, self-betrayal, and low-grade trauma that informs all aspects of their life. The remedy for that living hell is often the temporary heaven of crystal meth. Isn't it ironic that organized religion perpetuates what it is supposed to stand against? Much like the gay community. How many men have been driven into addiction as a result of narrow-minded, judgmental, trauma-inflicting religious institutions? For me, it was a huge factor. And that trauma came out in sexual fantasies and fetishes around fucking in the church parking lot, Hot rails off the back of a Bible, all that kind of crazy stuff. I was so angry and so rebellious against Jesus that I found all sorts of dopamine hits to strike back at the church. But the experience of rebuilding after meth has given me the opportunity to reclaim my spirituality and reclaim my relationship with Jesus. If meth hadn't come along, I might still identify as an atheist, which I did after coming out. Pre-myth. So for that, I am eternally grateful for my experience with myth, and I hope you too can reclaim your religious trauma. And I pray this episode with Eric Feltus is the catalyst. Enjoy.

Instead of asking, is this belief true? Why don't you ask, is this belief helpful? Does this belief help inspire me to love myself and the world around me? Does this help me to get up In the morning. Does this help me to live one more day without doing crystal meth? One more hour? One more minute?

Welcome to the After Meth Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create a repository of resources for current and past addicts as well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermath. Trigger warning, this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey and you feel like you could be triggered, by discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, please do not listen to this podcast. All right, now on with the show. Okay, welcome back to The Aftermath Podcast. Thank you for joining us. And if you are enjoying the podcast, please remember to rate and review. I prefer a 5-star, but whatever you feel led to do. As you know, The Aftermath is a great name, but also not great for the SEO. So the more you can rate, review, share, like, Subscribe, all the good stuff. It gets it in the algorithm and in front of the people who need to hear and see it. And by the way, I'm going to have a podcast coming up where I will share the letters we're receiving from men all over the world who are using this podcast as a cockblock, which is a good thing. Um, but instead of going out and partying, instead of giving in to triggers and cravings, they will flip on the podcast and it just will take that sexual urge right away, right out right away. So I'm glad to hear that. I'm glad to see that. It's also helping a lot of family members who have, um, members, loved ones who are lost in the crystal meth addiction understand exactly what's going on with them and why they disappear for 2 weeks and so on and so forth. So I'm really, really happy to hear and see letters from loved ones. So today we are talking about church shame. And it's such a timely topic because, as you know, if you're listening, I would assume that 99% of you have come to meth as a result of some type of church or religious shame. And this is not just Christianity. We're getting letters from Pakistan, from Dubai, from Singapore, from all over the world saying, Because of my religion, I turned to meth because I didn't feel like— I felt either like I didn't belong or that I was shit. So why not do meth? So, um, this is going to be a podcast that you will want to earmark, probably listen to over and over again, because I have the expert here, Eric Feltis. Eric Feltis.

And you said my name right.

I did, I did. You're proud of yourself for that one.

I tried.

I went through your Instagram listening for you to say it because I was like, I know it, it must not be Feltz because I've— I have said— I have said Feltz for years actually in my head.

So funny. Well, thanks for doing the research. That's more than a lot of people. I appreciate it.

Yeah, yeah. Well, Eric Feltz is a life coach, actor, speaker, and writer. He and his team have helped hundreds of LGBT+ men build community become free of shame, find love, build businesses, and at the end of the day, live their best shame-free gay lives. He has been seen in shows on Showtime, Netflix, and Amazon Prime, and he has spoken in churches across the country. Eric lives in Atlanta, Georgia, with his dog Cadence and his 29 houseplants. I love that. I love that.

See a couple here. Yeah, just a few.

Uh, I have as many, I think. Um, I just want to say first, before we get started, um, I, I grew up in a very small Pentecostal church. And not only was it a small Pentecostal church, but everybody who was anybody was my family. The pastor was my uncle, right? And I, my dad's side, I had I didn't feel like I belonged. He even told me, you can't be my real son because you're nothing like me, right? So I turned to the church to try to find belonging.

Mm-hmm.

And I didn't know how angry I was about this until the last year, but I've been angry that my family and the church manipulated my young mind in a way that stole my childhood from me.

Mm-hmm.

Stole my life in my 20s and early 30s into a point— it was to the point where the guilt and the shame drove me to plan a suicide. But then I didn't carry it out because I was told Jesus would send me to hell if I committed suicide. So finally, I got to the point where I can live in a hell here on earth, or I can live in hell after I die. But I can't do both. So I'm going to come out.

Hmm.

So I came out. And when I came out, I still didn't belong. I still didn't find my belonging in the gay community. And that's where Introduce meth, where I finally did belong for a while, right?

Mm-hmm.

So I'm saying all that to say that in my recovery journey, you were one of the first accounts that I found that helped me be seen and be heard. And trying not to get emotional already. But helped me kind of reconcile everything that had happened to me and come to a place where I could have some compassion for my uncle and my family to say, you know what, they did have my best interest at heart. I don't think they maliciously stole my youth from me, but it still happened. And I didn't want to play the victim, but I come to the point of realizing I was victimized, whether it was malicious or not. And your account and your words helped me open up enough where I considered that there could be a Jesus for me and there could be a God for me, because I had completely— when I came out and started doing meth, I completely became an atheist because I associated Jesus with them, right? But you helped me get through that to the point where I opened myself up and found Jesus for me and in a new relationship that has showed me unconditional love and belonging, a true belonging. And so I just want to thank you for your work and your words and making me laugh so often because I didn't know I could laugh about it. And I didn't know that— I just didn't know that other people were going through the same thing. And so you just really have been an instrumental part of my healing. So thank you.

Well, I'm so honored to be here and thank you. I mean, that can— this is the best introduction I've ever had in my life. And I can't wait just to play that anytime before I walk on stage or do any other podcast. This guy thinks I'm cool. Thank you so much. And thank you for letting me come on your podcast. And there's so much that I resonate with your story and what you've gone through. And while I've never done meth, thank God, I have knocked on different doors looking for heaven and found unsustainable temporary hits of heaven along the way. And so, you know, you mentioned that you can see my page and you can laugh. Well, they say that, you know, tragedy plus time equals comedy.

Mm-hmm.

And if we can't laugh about some of this, then, then, then What is it for? I think that laughing at this disempowers, disempowers it. And you know what? I also think that we're talking a lot about heaven versus hell. Let's be clear: the the Bible never talks about an afterlife, not once. The Bible talks about heaven and hell, even though those words didn't exist then. Jesus used the word Gehenna to talk about what we call hell, but Gehenna was a garbage dump. a physical location. And so I believe that when Jesus says all may enter the kingdom of heaven through me, what Jesus was saying was all may choose love over fear, choose community building over shame in order to create a heaven here on earth. And when people 2,000 years ago who crucified him are the same ones that use Jesus as a weapon against people like you and I today. When that happens to us, particularly during our formative years, we adopt these unhelpful beliefs that we are not worthy of love, that we're abominations, that we're in hell and will only go to hell. And so why wouldn't we knock on doors in order to look for heaven, whether it's through sex, gossip, overeating, undereating, meth, alcohol? Why wouldn't we? When we're driven out of places that once told us we are loved, of course we are going to look for a sense of belonging. We're going to take it wherever we can find it. And so to your listeners, a couple things that I want to say to create as safe a space as I can. Now, I cannot guarantee safety. It's not my place to do so, but I can do my best to create a safe space where you are called into a place of courage. So dear listener, know that I don't care if you are a Christian or not. Some days I am, sometimes I'm not. Some days I identify as a Christian, most days I'm a Christian Buddhist agnostic. Agnosticism is, is the admittance that I don't know, and also that I don't care and that it doesn't matter.

Right.

Right? Jesus never said, come worship me. Jesus said, come follow me. And so if the word Jesus is triggering to you, yeah, I get it 100%. I want to honor that. So I typically don't say Jesus, but I like that you said Jesus for me because you're recognizing that Jesus is very, um, it's a, it's a, it's a unique relationship per individual. I like to use the word Christ, and I got this from Father Richard Rohr, who is a Franciscan monk, I want to say, uh, Catholic. And I'm former Catholic. So while I was hurt in the Catholic Church, I find healing at someone who is so loving like Richard Rohr. Richard Rohr talks about this book that he wrote called The Universal Christ. And it's a very Buddhist philosophy of Christ is beyond Jesus. It's beyond Allah. It's beyond self. It is beyond the universe. It's unconditional, radical, inclusive love. So listener, if the word Jesus or God or Bible don't speak to you, then throw them the fuck out because that's not God for you. God is so much bigger than a word. God is love. It's self. It's a place of heaven inside of yourself and beyond the walls of your body. So I want to make sure you feel good in this space, and I hope that helps. Does that help? And can I call you Dallas? Is that okay?

Yeah, yeah, of course. Okay.

All right, cool. I hope that helps.

Oh yes, it does help. It does help. Um, it does help. And it feels like something that I should be— I could be saying more to, to the listeners, you know. And there's many of us, and I say us as in those that are struggling with crystal meth, um, because I feel like I speak for them So often that we, we are triggered by the word Jesus. We're triggered by God because we question, if there's a God, why is there a myth? And why am I stuck in this addiction, in this hell on earth?

Yeah.

What would you— I guess, what would a lifeline be to someone who is questioning How there could be a God when they're, they're, they're living this dark, dark life and they feel out of control. And yeah, what would you say to them?

What a great question. Um, what I would say to someone who is questioning if there is a God or not is, good, I'm so glad you're questioning. Because certainty kills us. Certainty is death. There is no certainty. There is no absolute truth. And so if there's no absolute truth, instead of asking, is this belief potentially belief in a God, belief not in a God? Instead of asking, is this belief true? Why don't you ask, is this belief helpful? Does this belief help inspire me to love? Myself and the world around me? Does this help me to get up in the morning? Does this help me to live one more day without doing crystal meth, one more hour, one more minute? If it helps you, dear listener, believe it. Believe it. I reject the idea of absolute truth. And what I always tell people that talk to me when they ask the question, is this a religious program? I say, hell no. This is not a religious program. This is a program of love. Which is leaning more into spirituality than religion. And so if you are Christian and you want to, if you want to be a practicing Christian, I bless that. I bless that journey for you. That can be helpful for you. If you walk away from church and never want to step inside a church again, I bless that. I bless that journey for you. I want to meet you where you're at and find the beliefs that help you. Beliefs are stepping stones that'll lead us in different paths, and I want to help you down the path of love, brick by brick, belief by belief, and that is different for everyone. And so fuck this idea that there's one way of living. That's where religion screws us over. There's not one way of living. Jesus didn't come down to say, do this, don't do this. Let's get away from having to believe a certain thing, and let's get— let's, let's, instead of agreeing on beliefs, let's agree on values. So values that I look for in another human being that I'm going to be in communion with are love, our vulnerability, our honesty, our courage, which is telling one's heart. If you value my values, there's space for you at this table. I'm cool with you. If you don't, then come back to me when you have my values. And we can have different beliefs. That's Great, but can we have the same values? And if so, then there's space for you at my table. And so to answer, going back to your question, what would I say about someone who doesn't know, who's questioning the existence of a God? Is I would say keep questioning. Maybe ask where did I adopt this belief? Where did this belief come from? Is this belief helpful? And if the belief is helpful, continue to believe it. If the belief is Putting on a path of destruction, walk away from it. If you walk away from a person or a belief and it makes you feel open and inspired, lean into it. If you walk away from a person or a belief or an institution or a community and you feel closed off and less than, walk away from it. And Dallas, you can say more about this than I can when it comes to drugs. Sure, drugs feel good, right? Mm-hmm. But what happens when we walk away from it? We feel closed off, tired, wanting more scarcity, shame. I'm not saying it's easy to walk away from it, but lean into that information. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does. And that overlaps so much with there are recovery programs. Yeah, who add to The shame and this belief that there's only one way.

Yeah.

Right. And when you are coming out of a meth addiction and you're vulnerable and you are kind of disconnected from yourself, you really can't even tell me what your values are.

Yeah.

So then you go into a program feeling that there— that's, that's the salvation for me.

Yeah.

Then you let them tell you your values.

Yeah.

And so I think what you just said was so perfect in terms of giving a blueprint for men to, to identify which recovery route they want to go in.

Yeah.

And I— and the, the route is whatever the fuck you want it to be, as soon as— as, as long as it, like you said, gives you Love helps you feel open and establishes your values.

We're so used to looking for God on the outside. And when we leave church, we put that instead of a priest or pastor minister being at the pulpit, we put the leader of AA or, or, you know, again, any, any sort of recovery group. And I don't know if that's helpful. Instead, what if we find love and source from within? Sure, it's scary because anything new is going to be scary because your ego does not want you to be healthy. Your ego wants to be right. So whatever it's used to, it's going to look for more of that. And that might not be helpful. That might not be helpful for you.

Yeah. Yeah. That is right. I mean, there, this idea of my salvation is outside of me and I need somebody to tell me what's right or wrong. It is out, you know. And the— for me, true, true addiction recovery comes from understanding that the highest power is in you. And you are the one who makes the decision through your free will, right? And that you may elicit help from outside and support, but ultimately, you're empowered. You make the decisions. When it's 3 AM and you're on Grindr and you're horny and you're deciding whether or not to go use meth, there's no, there's no arm or lightning bolt that comes out of the sky and takes that phone away from you.

Yeah.

You make the decision to do that. But, but we want to turn to other people or call a sponsor or something to, to give us permission not to, but it's really you. You, you empower and embody the ultimate higher power when you make that decision on your own.

You're reminding me of that story, and I'm going to butcher it because I've never actually told the story. I've only heard it several times, of the man who is on the roof of his house that was flooded after a hurricane. And the water kept rising and kept rising, kept rising, and he just drifted away and he died. And he met God at the pearly gates of heaven and said, God, why didn't you rescue me? And God said, my son, I did rescue you. I sent a boat, you rejected it. I sent a helicopter, you rejected it because you were waiting for this cartoon version of Sky Daddy. And to me, that tells me that God is potentially— listener— is your sponsor in that moment. I'm not saying God is your sponsor, but God is the, the opportunity to reach out for your sponsor. For example, yeah, yeah. If you if if that helps you, if lean into that, yeah, yeah. This is where faith comes in. Faith is not certainty. Faith is sitting in the discomfort of the unknown, admitting that you don't know, and choosing love. That's and it's a and it's a choice like forgiveness. It is a constant. Faith is a constant practice. It's not a tangible thing like the sweater I'm wearing right now where I can take it off and I don't have faith. I practice faith. There's a reason I spend one to two hours a day in meditation and mindfulness and breathwork. Because it's a constant practice. Because sometimes the world is a shitty place, and I refuse to let that win. And so I choose to lean into the love through the discomfort.

Yeah, thank you for saying that. Thank you for saying that, because what I'm seeing across the board is, is that we, we, we get A month or two into abstinence from the substance. And we get— we don't want to— we get comfortable. We don't want to be uncomfortable. We lose track of consistent daily action, like you're saying. For me, I require a morning, noon, and night practice just to keep me on the tracks every day. And so when you're coming out of a meth addiction, You're required to put in some work here to practice, you know, whatever that may be. And then, and again, I see men looking elsewhere to figure out, well, what is my morning routine? Your morning routine is whatever you want it to be, whatever feels comfortable and resonates with you, as long as you're doing it every day, as long as you do it with intention and mindfulness.

It's a practice.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And let's be honest, like, I'm certain that you work on this in your own, with your clients as well. Like, It— yes, you're right, Dallas. It is whatever you want it to be, but there are also people like myself and like Dallas and other people out there that can help you create—

Sure.

A plan. What I always do is I give my clients a plan. I call it a ritual and I use that word intentionally because I think our bodies, our minds are holy temples and so why not make this daily practice sacred? And I tell them exactly what I want them to do for 2 weeks. I call it the training wheels version.

Uh-hmm.

And I say, try it for 2 weeks because if you don't try it exactly how I ask you, I don't know if it's working or not if you come back at me and we have inconsistent data. So at least try it. I'll say at least try things and try them wholeheartedly. Yeah, it's interesting that you just said that about people will go usually about a month and then they feel they start to get comfortable. Comfort. We all want comfort and at the end of the day when we recharge our batteries, that's what self-care is whether it's a bath, whether it's You know, I don't know, connection, a nice meal, a nice TV show where you're kind of numbing out, sleep. These are great forms of self-care when necessary, right? But it is so vital to get out of our comfort zones. Of course, you don't want to be comfortable. Wanting to be comfortable and wanting to improve your life is like saying to a personal trainer, I want to lose 5 pounds in fat and gain 5 pounds in muscle, and I never want to sweat. It's not going to happen, right? And guess what? When you sweat, those toxins going out of your body don't feel good. And so, when you're sitting with the absence of stimulation and you are bored and you feel a little comfortable, of course, you're going to want to lean into those things that give you excitement. But that is where the magic happens. I find boredom intolerable. And it just means I need to practice it more. It's the birthplace of creativity. It's what happens right before massive change is boredom. So allow yourself to feel bored. Allow yourself to, if it's excruciating for you, feel that discomfort because that is where the growth happens.

I hope that you will, if you're listening, when you're listening, you will rewind that boredom, boredom, boredom, boredom is what I hear. Um, and you know, the, the sign, a true sign of someone who is advancing in their recovery is the ability to be by themselves and bored and being okay with that. So I'm so glad that you brought that up. So glad you brought that up. Um, can you— you mentioned your coaching. Can you talk to us a little bit about Shame Free Gay Life? Yeah, Shame Free Gay Life program.

Of course. So I have, I have several programs. It really depends on where people are and what they're looking for. Um, along with a retreat, a year-long program, a 10-week program called the Shame-Free Gay Life Program. And so everything I do is built on 3 pillars of connection. And so first we have the pillar of self. It's more love. It's less worry. It's motive. It's, it's helping you get to a place where you see your own self and identity from a different perspective, where you fully love who you are regardless of what other people think. So that's the pillar of self. Next, we have the pillar of higher power. Mm-hmm. Now, listeners, I'm going to tell you, sometimes I say higher power, sometimes I say passion. It depends on where the conversation goes. No, that's not being two-faced. It's not being flip-floppy. It's using words that resonate with you. It's okay. Side note, there's— I don't remember which one, but there's a letter from Paul to the Corinthians in the Bible where he actually talks about code switching. And I find this fascinating. Where he basically says, paraphrasing, he says, You know, when I talk to rich people, I use this language. When I talk to poor people, I use this language. When I talk to people in the church, I use this language. Out of the church, this language, etc. He, like so many people that are good with people, uses language that connects with you, right? And so the word higher power speaks to you. Let's let's talk about it. But I do believe that regardless of what it is, it's sitting in your passion. So that being said, this pillar is is. Connecting you to your divine self, your creativity. We remove anxiety so that you can not worry about doom and gloom but be present in this moment and be connected to your divine higher self and your higher power. It's the pillar of higher power or passion. Thirdly, we have the pillar of community. Sometimes I say others. It's more love from others. It's feeling worthy of love and belonging. And men in my program meet other men in the program through group coaching as well. That's where we feel worthy of love and belonging and everyone that I talk to goes through a lengthy sort of vetting process to make sure that we all are on the same page and that you're going to put your— do your side of the work, right? You're going to go all in. You're going to commit to this. You're going to show up as your authentic self when possible, when you can. You're going to be honest about where you are in your journey. So you are meeting other people on that same level. I think it's very easy, particularly in the gay community, to hide behind drugs, to hide behind sex. And I'm a very sex-positive person. I also know that sex can be used to avoid vulnerability. I can't tell us— I didn't realize how much I needed this program that I have until I started coaching men in it. You don't know what you don't know. It's very easy to hide again behind tools like drugs, like sex.

Yeah.

Which disconnect us. When I started developing these healthy relationships with these gay men, my clients, some after the program who have become my friends, I realized, oh, we're fucking awesome. And we are such beautiful individuals. It's put me in touch with people like you. Like, I wouldn't have had this conversation with another gay man before this program existed. I didn't know it was possible to be— have a deep, intimate, vulnerable relationship with another gay man in this way. Yeah. Yeah. And so, long story short, those are the 3 pillars of connection and everything's kind of based on that. And so what we do is we note beliefs that are holding us back. We question, we challenge them. We adopt more empowering beliefs. We build community and we celebrate ourselves every step of the way. First thing before any of that is we create that target for where we want to be. If we do not have a bullseye, we cannot hit a target. We cannot hit a target. If we don't have a target, we can't hit a bullseye.

That's right.

So that's kind of the, that is what I will say is universal with all the programs I have.

Yeah, thank you, thank you. Um, so when I looked at you, when I looked at your page, um, one of the first, one of the pinned, um, well, now I lost it. One of your pinned at the top, 5 signs you're struggling from church shame, right?

Yeah.

Perfectionism, fear of rejection, self-doubt, and internalized homophobia. Suppression of authentic self and negative self-talk. Those— if you were to ask me what are the 5 top reasons gay men use meth, those are the— those are the 5 that, that I would, would say.

Take it, screenshot everything across the first line out and put the word meth instead of church.

I will. But how, you know, how interesting that it overlaps so closely and the internalized homophobia, especially because we have, you know, we, we're, we're ashamed of having gay sex, right? But when you take meth, there is no shame. And you cannot not only have shame-free gay sex, but you explore everything that you've ever wanted to explore in, in this world of confidence and, and you're just— you can go and do and have a, you know, a gangbang, a cum dump, all this stuff, all the stuff you see on the, the porn that you watch. It comes alive when you take crystal meth. And then what happens after, when you're in recovery, is all that, all that confidence is taken away, and intimacy is perverted for you. Um, and this internalized homophobia is even At its worst. So for listeners who— I wish everybody could participate in your program. I really do. I mean, I actually, I want to. But if I want to establish intimacy again, if I want to at least start to dip my toe into what does it mean to be vulnerable and have a relationship with a gay man? What, what would you say in terms of give us some tips on how to start?

Great question. How to build intimacy in a— what I'm hearing you say is like in a sexual or romantic way. Did I get that question right?

So I think it is sexual and romantic. However, I tell my guys to start on a platonic level.

Okay, so it's not— we're not talking specifically about sex. We're talking about Intimacy. Intimacy.

Yeah.

Well, regardless of if it's sexual or not, I would say remove the expectations. Remove the expectations. And I don't know about you, and this is, I think, a lot of the church shame is we've, we've grown up in purity culture where we date to mate. That is so much pressure. How do I know who I'm supposed to spend the rest of my life with after seeing them on a picture this big that I swiped right on, or just their torso if I'm on a different app, right? How, how am I supposed supposed to know that? What if I meet up with someone with no agenda? Better yet, particularly if you're in recovery, what if you meet up with someone with set boundaries in place?

Hmm.

Boundaries allow us to be free. That's the weird paradox about boundaries. They're necessary to feel freedom and to feel vulnerability. And so if you are ready to meet up with someone for coffee, what happens if you let them know that you're in recovery? What happens if that— I would say if we're talking dating, if you're— that that's already on your profile, weed out the people that can't handle it. They're not your people, right? So off the bat, weed those people out. So meet up with people that, that, that are already open-minded and that want to get to know you. And I think set those boundaries up. Something like a coffee shop is a great way to set that boundary up. So for example, if you're not ready for intimacy, or if you think you'll be tempted to take your clothes off but you don't know that you're ready for that in your recovery process, meet up in a public place like a park, like a coffee shop, something like that, something that takes 30 to 45 minutes because here's the thing, if like off the bat you're not into them and for whatever reason you're not going to be with them for 3 hours but if you have an out, You're already more comfortable without having to worry about what your out is going to be. I think saying no is so hard for us because we're trained not to say no. And so if we don't have to say no, instead we know it's a coffee and then you have something else planned after that. Yahtzee. And don't go into it looking for a fuck buddy, for a husband, anywhere in between. Go into it looking to make a connection. That is your intention. My goal during the next 30 to 45 minutes is to see if I can make a connection with this person. If you feel as if you can make a connection with this person, do it again next week. If you feel I don't feel connected to this person, walk away. You never need to see them again. So I think we just put too much expectation, too much pressure on it. Life is too short. It doesn't have to be so serious. What if we just meet? To see if we have a connection. So instead of dating to mate, let's date to gather information.

Yeah. Okay. And you're in your program, you talked about intrusive thoughts and kind of rewiring those, right? Rewriting those. The thing that— the number one thing that I see keeping us in relapse is thinking that we're not enough already. And if I'm not enough already, why not go ahead and relapse? Because that proves that I can't do this. And that, that I'm less than, I'm no good. Could you give us some— what, how do you help men with their intrusive thoughts? Yeah.

Well, as Brené Brown says, the only difference between someone who's worthy of belonging and someone who's not worthy of belonging Is the belief. So if you believe I am not enough, so what's the point? Why don't I just relapse? There's really nothing I can say to change your mind because that's on that's on you. I can coach you, of course, and I want to coach you. But let's remember that that ego is a son of a bitch, and that that ego again doesn't want you to be healthy. It wants instant pleasure, not future pleasure. And it wants to be right, not to be healthy. I think the first step in recovery is awareness. So the more we become aware of that ego, that voice in our head, the more we detach from it and recognize that it's not universal absolute truth. It's not our God. It is not in control of us. That is the first step is awareness. And so You know, I think that there's this idea that we, that Rome was built in a day. This is not going to change in a day. I think we, as someone much wiser before me said, we overestimate what we can do in a day and underestimate what we can do in a year. Right? And so I think the first step is becoming aware of those intrusive thoughts. Journaling, meditation, mindful practices. These are tools that I help to teach. My clients, my goal is for them to be masters in these tools. Okay? So allow yourself to become aware of the thoughts that are holding you back. Change your relationship with boredom and discomfort. Discomfort tells us when we're used to it telling us this that we're no good. See, here's more evidence that we're no good, that we're lousy, that we're bad. Ask yourself this question. First of all, Eric, I'm talking to myself. I'm so proud of you for recognizing that you just had this thought of I'm a piece of shit for feeling bored. Good for you. Yesterday you wouldn't have even noted it. Now you noted it. That's amazing. Celebrate that with your sponsor. Celebrate that with your coach, Eric. Thing two, Eric, is it helpful to feel like you're a piece of shit? No, Eric, it's not helpful. Okay, okay, great. Let's journal about it. Eric, I feel like I'm a piece of shit. I feel all that. I'm gonna journal because the more I journal, the more I detach from it. I journal on a daily basis. Next, I'm stealing this from Byron Katie. These are four questions.

Yep.

We've already asked if it's helpful or not. You said no, it's not helpful. Is it true? Yes, it's true. I am a piece of shit. I already said it's true. Here's all the reasons why. Detached. Question number two: Can you prove it? Is there evidence to prove that you are a piece of shit? Well, I guess I can't prove it. Here's, here's evidence that I think is there. Be honest with yourself. This is not toxic positivity. It's not don't worry, be happy bullshit. Be honest with yourself.

Yeah.

But at the end of the day, you can't prove it. And when you can't prove it, your ego, which leans so heavily into logic, is now open to a different possibility. Okay, maybe there's a different logic I can cling to. Great. Now we're ready to do some deeper work. Question number 3. How do you treat yourself? And also, what happens when you buy into this belief that you're a piece of shit? For me, I feel it in my stomach. I get a knot in my stomach. I get tension in my shoulders. There are so many different symptoms that I've seen and witnessed either in myself or in men that I've worked with. They prove themselves right by never asking the guy out. They lose their erection. They come too quickly. They jump in bed guy after guy after guy after guy after guy. They never have sex. They use again. They go away for 2 weeks never to be heard from. They punish themselves. You see what I'm saying?

Yeah.

All self-fulfilled prophecy and punishment and all you do, dear listener, is list those things from a compassionately curious place. These are the symptoms of my shame. This is all the shit I do. You're just noting it.

Yeah.

Again, you're noting those beliefs. You're noting the effect. I want to pause here for a second. Buddhists don't believe in giving power to guilt. Buddhists believe in cause and effect. Buddhists have this metaphor called the double arrow. You get shot with an arrow. Don't shoot yourself with another arrow. Tend to the first arrow. Well, the arrow wasn't painful enough. You got to shoot yourself again, right? Even you're not even enough for your pain. You can't win. How do we use this in in different language and coaching language? If you feel shame and pain, I'm a piece of shit. Let that pain be enough. The second arrow would be. using meth again.

Yeah.

Or going to that sex party if that's not where you're at in your journey. Punishing yourself. You don't need a second arrow. The first arrow is painful enough. Tend to that pain. Allow yourself to feel that pain. And then the last question you journal about or talk about with your sponsor is, who would I be without this thought? If I never had the thought I'm a piece of shit again, Who would I be? I'm gonna tell you, even though I've been doing this for so long, Dallas, the first thing that happened in my body physically when I said that was my stomach relaxed. Yeah. I had a physiological response to the thought. I will never, I will eliminate that thought. This is just the beginning. Rome was not built in a day. Yeah. You're not going to go from feeling you're a piece of shit for 47 years to believing I'm hunky-dory for the rest of your life. That is toxic passivity. That's not helpful.

Yep, bypassing. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Yes, please rewind that and listen. Actually, the whole podcast, but rewind that and listen, if rewind is still a word. Um, whatever it is, move the thing back and listen to that again. That was— that's, that's magic. Thank you for that very much. Thank you for that. And it reminds me of relapse. And when we have a relapse, that's the arrow, right? You've already inflicted pain on yourself. But then when you go into this spiral of more shame and more guilt, and I am— I've just proven to myself I'm a piece of shit— you miss out, you know, you, you're, you're doubling the pain and you miss out on the learning on, on what happened here, you know. You miss out on being that observer, right?

Yeah. Um, in, you know what you're describing to us in regards, in, in this, the context of relapse. Let's talk about that double arrow, right? So you relapse and then you're going to beat yourself up over as if relapsing was not enough of a pain, as if the hangover you're experiencing or the physical symptoms, pain you're experiencing of that post-relapse isn't painful enough, right?

Mm-hmm.

So let's, instead of thinking of feelings as facts, What if we think of feelings as information, just data? That's all, right? Instead of clinging to the feelings and running with the story of it, oh, that means I'm a piece of shit. That means I'm gonna have to beat myself up. That means I have to punish myself. What if instead we recognize, oh, wow, I have this pounding headache from a different example, like being drunk once again last night and relapsing, and I'm not— I wasn't sober last night after 8 years of sobriety.

Mm-hmm.

I have a pounding headache. I have a knot in my stomach. I'm feeling guilt. I'm recognizing that I'm feeling some shame. I'm feeling embarrassed, feeling confused. What if we just feel it? What if we just feel it and let it pass through us in the time it's ready? Because emotions are not meant to be stuck. Emotions are energy in motion. What if we allow them to pass through us?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes, very much so. Very much so. Thank you. Thank you for that. Ah, um, I wanted to make sure I asked you about your podcast, The Great Becoming.

Yeah.

And what, what does the title mean for you? And what, what would we expect to tune in to?

Yeah. Yeah. So, so the— it's The Great Unbecoming. Oh, Unbecoming.

Sorry.

Yeah, no, it's good.

Hey, I got your name right.

That's more important. And also, um, you should shoot yourself with 3 more arrows from that. No, I'm just kidding. So, but it's an important distinction, right? Because it's intentional. Unbecoming— The Great Unbecoming is a show about unlearning. It's about asking, you know, what did you adopt along the way that's no longer serving you? And also, what have you overcome in order to become the person you are today? We need to strip away so much. So much of learning is unlearning. I'm thinking of coming out of the closet. I'm thinking of recovery. I'm thinking of deconstruction. I'm thinking of setting up boundaries with people that don't value our values, like family members potentially. And so it's let it— it's stories of unlearning. It's stories of letting go of that which no longer serves you. In order to make space for the person you are today, and the person doing the unbecoming is either myself in the moment as I as I tell you more of my story of letting go of that which no longer serves me, unbecoming, or stories of other people on my podcast, or it's a story that challenges your you listener to unbecome. So I might bring on someone. You know, I'll give you an example. So I just had someone on my podcast. It hasn't come out yet, but I am having someone who identifies as trans and non-binary. And great story of their unbecoming, you know. Um, they're, they're, they're married to assigned male at birth, non-binary, and, uh, and married to a woman. Been married, I want to say, either married or together 10 years. And, um, so it's their— it grew up evangelical, so it's their unbecoming of evangelicalism, of Christian nationalism, in order to become this person they've always been meant to be that's always been there down deep down. And they tell this beautiful story of when they were a child, they put on, I want to say it was their mother's heels or their mother's or grandmother's dress. It was something, something like that. And just felt so alive. And then thought I could never do this again and shoved it down. That is becoming. Right? And then the story of unbecoming is stripping away all the shame, all the guilt, all the spiritual abuse.

Yeah.

That that they believed that was not okay, right? Children are unbelievable when it comes to intuitiveness. And we are terrible at critical thinking.

Mm-hmm.

And so we know how we feel. We are so tapped into the divine. And yet we also tap into other sources that we feel are divine because, because we're so trustworthy. So we don't know how to be critical thinkers yet. That's why we need to unbecome. So that's their story of unbecoming. Now, a potential nugget of unbecoming was my intro. And in the intro, I said, dear listener, if you don't know, I'm gonna just tell you something that I've learned along the way. Trans means someone who no longer, um, uh, identify— or who does not identify with— maybe they never did— with the gender in which they were assigned at birth. And a non-binary person is someone who does not identify with the binary of male and female. So yes, listener, you actually can be both trans and non-binary at the same time. This person is both trans and non-binary, does not— is not identified with the gender they were assigned at birth, and also they don't identify with either of the binary of the genders. And I just found that fascinating because there was a time when I didn't know that. I remember that that clicked for me. So I'm like, that clicks for me, then maybe I can help others to unbecome this knowledge that's no longer for them. So story of unbecoming, it's called The Great Unbecoming. Come check it out. And Dallas, I need to have you on my podcast.

Yes, I would love that. You know, I, I always say recovery is not learning anything new, it's unlearning what you thought you knew. And you know, my, my story of a higher power was it was a day when It's a long story to set it up, but the long story short is I ran into the woods and I was choosing whether or not to text the dealer and relapse. This was a year and a half into sobriety, and I decided to start deleting all my contacts. And when I went through and I deleted all my contacts, I felt this release and an opening up.

Wow.

And I heard almost audibly We've been waiting for you. You know, that was blocking me.

Wow, beautiful.

And so I said— I started crying and I said, well, what do I do? And they said— and I heard it again— look at this tree. And I looked over and there was this decomposing tree on the ground. And the message was— I didn't know at the time— the message was I needed to die. Everything about me needed to die and become something Hmm. And I had to unlearn, start to peel back and unlearn everything I thought I knew about myself, because everything I thought I knew about myself was given to me by people on the outside. Like, sitting in that church as a 6-year-old, you know, is when I learned that I was abnormal and that I couldn't be gay. And I learned that I wasn't enough from a man screaming at me who I looked to, my uncle. And so I had to unlearn that. I had to unbecome that. So, but why do you think we cling to those stories even though they hurt us so bad? Why do we hold on to those narratives?

Because it's both the doctor and the sickness, you know, that, that those stories that cause us so much pain also cause us our balm because it's what we know. It's why, it's the same reason why people go back to meth. It's the same reason why people go back to their abusive husband.

Yeah.

It's like, imagine like on a very, very comical micro level, it's why I don't stop eating Hot Cheetos when I'm eating them, you know, like, 'cause I get a temporary relief when I have another one, but like, it just makes it worse and worse and worse, right? Like, and stopping that would be really painful in the moment. And it's because once again, your ego does not want future pleasure. It wants present pleasure. And listener, I want you to know when I say ego, that's not a slam. We all have it. We all have that voice inside us and it's there for a reason. And that voice has kept us from burning our hand on the stove more than once. The problem is right now it's preventing us from cooking, right? So we logically know that there's freedom on the other end of it, on the other end of getting rid of potential religion or Whatever the addiction might be, but but it's too scary. So that's one piece, and I don't mean to oversimplify this because this is this is an entire podcast just that question alone. But another reason is because what you're describing, Dallas, is a cult. One characteristic that every single cult have in common is that they make it as impossible as possible to leave, and they use the tactic of fear. To control you if you leave, and they and you hear how I mean maybe you've even heard this with your uncle. It's like well so and so is no longer with us. They're not dead. They just left this church to go to a different church. They're a sinner. They're going to burn in hell forever. Let's pray for them even though it's too late, right? And so you're like I don't want to be like that. And at a young age we think I don't want to be like that. I don't want to be othered. I want I don't want to even be the lost the lost sheep. So instead of focusing on Jesus finding the lost sheep, we focus on the fact that the sheep is lost. We think, "I don't want to do that. I don't want to be that person." Furthermore, can you think of anything scarier than burning in the fiery pits of hell for eternity?

Right.

They really gotcha.

They did.

That is beautiful marketing to keep you coming back. Yeah, because. Joy tactics don't work, in part because we focus on fear at a five times higher rate than we focus on joy. That's that's neurological, and that comes from from when we used to live in caves. If you were chased by a bear, well, of course the adrenaline is going to keep you alive more so than if you were like, "Oh, look at that pretty bear!" You die. But the problem is now we hear someone at the pulpit, or we get an email from. Our boss, or we get a text from our ex, and our heart falls out of our asshole, and we are ready to run away from a bear that doesn't exist because evolution is so freaking slow. And so, of course, people don't leave. It's all they know, and it's scary to think that something else might exist. That's why we call it a leap of faith. You you really have to take that leap of faith. Hmm.

Yeah, I love that. I love it. I love it. Well, Eric, what have I not asked today that maybe you wish I had of, or that you wanted to maybe say, or what did I miss?

You missed the name of you mispronouncing the name of my podcast correctly. I did.

I'm probably going to have to get back.

Son of a bitch! No, don't. You better not take it out. I'm going to listen to this whole thing. You don't embrace your.

Perfection. Yeah, right.

Again, shoot you with another arrow. What did you ask?

Um, my, my, um, AI assistant tells me that I don't go, um, I don't go in depth enough because I put the transcript in and say, what did I, you know, criticize me for this podcast? And they, and they tell me I don't—

Your AI assistant sounds like a little bitch.

He is.

Yeah, I like him.

Yeah, I do too.

Um, so what did you not ask me? I mean, I, I'll say like one thing that, that I like to say is that, you know, with people I interview at the end, is there's one person listening to this that feels very connected to, to the stories and connected to me and, and my experience.

Yeah.

And I don't think that that's a coincidence. This is the one person listening who is experiencing this sort of shame that feels like they're not enough, that maybe they feel like being gay is okay in their head, but deep down in their bodies they know that it's disgusting. And that there's something wrong with them. And so they choose drugs, alcohol, sex, what have you, to avoid the intolerable belief that maybe they are just doomed.

Hmm.

And I want to say first and foremost, I hear you. I see you. I love you because love is an action. And so I'm speaking directly to you. You are not alone in this. There's an entire community of people who love and embrace and accept you exactly as you are. Whether it's my community or Dallas's community or a different community, that doesn't matter. But I promise you, there is a community out there. Shame will tell you that you're alone in this, and I'm here to tell you it's false. That is a false teacher.

Hmm.

That is the— that is the voice of complacency. That is the voice that's keeping you in this place of hell here. I promise you that if you have one ounce of desire to be different, and if you're still listening, then you do. Then I promise you it is possible for you. So reach out to Dallas, reach out to me. I'll give Dallas my my my Instagram handle. You can DM me. You can email me eric@lifecoachingbyfeltus.com. Message me at Eric Feltus. Reach out to me. I'd love to talk to you. I'd love to connect with you. And you don't need to know the answer. All you need to know is how to put one foot in front of the other. Yeah. Maybe that next foot is listening to the end of this podcast, and maybe the foot after that. Is to click on my Instagram link. And maybe the foot after that is to watch one video. And maybe the foot after that is to put Instagram away and sleep. Right? This journey is different for everyone. It's one foot in front of the other. Listen to your knowing. It is inside of you. There's an answer inside of you as to what you need to do next. And I'm waiting for you and I'm ready for you. Wow.

Wow. Mic drop. That's beautiful. Thank you for saying that. Thank you for that. And And that is, I think, the key right there, is that, listener, you have the answers. You already have them. You don't have to search for them through anywhere else. There can be guides. We can guide you, but you have the answers. And that's so important.

Ah, yes.

And all of your contact information will be in the show notes, so I will make sure of that. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Eric.

Um, you commented once on a reel of mine and I about shit myself.

Oh.

And I was, I was like, what? No, I was very happy to see that. And, um, I just, I'm really, really happy that you answered and you are here because your words today, I know, are going to help so many of my listeners. So many.

Thank you. That's why we're here. And thank you. Thanks for having me on. I will have you on. And thanks for doing what you do. You're a light in what can be such a community and a feeling and a world of hopelessness. So I'm honored to be a part of the community with you.

Thank you. Thank you. All right, guys, we will see you next week. As always, if you want to be in our free community, we have a Facebook community, The Aftermath Podcast. Um, you can go to theaftermath.net and submit any questions that you might have. And of course, there is the YouTube version of this if you want to start a discussion thread. Ah, we will see you next week.

Bye, y'all!