EP 1:5 Controlling Chemsex with Igancio

What would your number one piece of advice be for someone who is just scared to death to make friends? They know they, they need to make new connections because we know, we know the opposite of addiction is connection, right? What is the first step someone could take? Welcome to the Aftermath Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create a repository of resources for current and past addicts, as well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermeth. Trigger warning, this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey and you feel like you could be triggered by discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, please do not listen to this podcast. All right, now on with the show. Hey there, Dallas here. This episode is a really good one, in my opinion. And that's a biased opinion, I guess. But we're talking to Ignacio, who is the CEO and co-founder of Controlling Chemsex. And this organization is one that I currently volunteer for, and they are really there for the men who are suffering from this addiction. They have a heart for men who are trapped in chemsex. And Ignacio started it all just from, uh, getting on Grindr and helping people.

He's—

the, the story is amazing. But what I want to highlight in this story, and what I couldn't get into during the interview because we ran out of time, was the rock bottom he hit was after he started being a counselor.

Mm-hmm.

and volunteering and helping other men get sober, when in the act of doing that, he actually got caught up in it. And that's something that I, I think is important for us to know and to realize is where we are in our recovery when it's time to start helping others. Because I know early on in my recovery, I thought after 6 months, a year, I was it. You know, I had figured it out. I had started a blog. I was going to do I was going to do that. And I just was not in a place to do that. I had some work that needed to be done, and it was kind of damaging for me to go back in and start helping men who are currently actively addicted because I would be around it and the exposure to it. I would find myself in situations that were dangerous. And suddenly the using dreams increased. And suddenly I kept thinking about and making secret plans to use. I mean, there were many, many signs and symptoms that came in. They crept in very subtly and very slowly, but it came to a point where it was not good for my recovery. I just wasn't ready yet. And I had to admit that. So I'm saying all that to say, pay attention to that in this story of Ignacio. and how he actually broke the cycle. And with that being said, we didn't get to, in this episode, read a listener letter. And I just happen to have one that's very similar to this situation that I wanted to read. And he writes, he identifies as a gay man, 34 years old. I'm newly sober, almost 6 months. My ex and I, and I'm kind of paraphrasing a little bit of it, some of it's not relevant, but my ex and I were together for years. And we used, and I decided to get clean. Um, I didn't— he didn't tell me why. And, um, and now I feel like I'm ready to help my ex because I— and I'm strong enough, yeah, to stay, to be around Tina and not use and not be affected by it. He really needs some help. How do I get started, and what are some tips for this? Well, My tip is don't start. My tip is do not go there. Of course, every situation's relative. I don't know where you are in your recovery. I don't know a lot of the story that goes there. But 6 months in, when— if you return back to the same environment you were in when you were addicted, that's putting yourself at a horribly high risk for relapse. And the other part of this is, Is that what I'm seeing here is that you're saying he needs help. He's not asking for help. And here's the thing that the mistake that a lot of people make is that they want people to get help. They care for them. But if they're not asking for help, they're not ready to get it. I have a lot of family members come to me and say, can you help my son get sober? Well, he's not asking me, so no, I can't. They have to be ready. Your ex has to be ready. And I think it would do a lot of damage to him. And to you, for you to turn around and this early on and start trying to save him and get him sober. There's my answer that very much coincides with the talk today with Ignacio. I cannot pronounce his last name. I hate to say that, but you'll see in the interview all about his story, what he represents, and I hope you enjoy it. I'd love to hear from you if you have any comments. feedback. If you'd like to rate and review, please do, and see you on the other side. Okay, welcome to episode 5 of the Aftermath Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg. Today I am so excited, thrilled, humbled, and just delighted to have my guest Ignacio. And I can say his first name, but with my country West Virginia accent, I can't Begin to pronounce the last name. So could you tell us your last name?

Yes, my name is Ignacio Lavalle de Inza. I'm originally from Spain.

And yes, yes, thank you, thank you. I'm going to introduce you because I want to read this bio, this, this very impressive bio. So after experiencing serious problems with chems for years, He was suffering from a severe GHB dependency. So for those of you listening that aren't familiar with GHB, you can Google it. But we talk— we're going to talk a lot about GHB in this podcast, because if you are familiar with crystal meth, you're going to be familiar with GHB. It's a liquid, and I used to call it liquid ecstasy, although it's something more powerful than that. But it's something that goes along with crystal meth. So Ignacio, in different periods of his life, also experimented with Tina and other substances on a daily basis for a very long time. But he has been working tirelessly since 2008 supporting men who are struggling with chemsex. He helps with issues such as isolation, trauma, homophobia, low self-esteem, serious difficulties with engaging in sober sex, experiencing any kind of intimacy, HIV issues, et cetera. Etc., etc. He can't deny he has struggled with many of these issues himself in the past because of his drug use, and that is why he can say out loud that there is life after chemsex and happiness is an option. I love that. For all the years, he has been working very passionately in the finest services in the UK that offer chemsex support, such as Antidote Club, Drug Clinic, Turning Point. Since 2011, he has been a chemsex specialist advisor, 56 Dean Street Sexual Health Clinic. He has seen between 12 to 15 people a week for years, which makes thousands of them in his whole career, providing brief interventions as well as more structured support in order to help them take control and back over their lives after chem use. In 2019, as an activist, he started to provide Chemsex support on Grindr and Scruff. I love this, it's so important in London. And the response was so huge that very soon it was clear that there was a very urgent need to professionalize this kind of support that nobody else was providing before. Those are the platforms where so many people get contacted with one another who are looking for chemsex, and it was basic to start to operate there. And if you're not familiar with Grindr or Scruff, get familiar with Grindr and Scruff. And also over here in America, which I'll ask you in a minute about sniffies, but Grindr and Scruff are apps for gay sex. They may call them a dating app, but it's actually a hookup app. But I can look on Grindr and Scruff and see where the next gay man is within so many feet of me. But it's a very simple, easy way to find drugs anywhere, I would say safely anywhere in the country within an hour. So he is also the CEO and co-founder of Controlling Chemsex. It's a nonprofit offering free support for men addicted to Chemsex. And that's how we met, because I just, just so overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly thrilled to see an organization out there on the front lines in Grindr finding men and helping them for free. So I became a part of this organization, and I just am finishing up with my first volunteer client. I was able to shadow Ignacio and just so blown away by the way that he can drill down to the issues, talk to men. And he's just such a talent and such a— really, I would say one of the number one voices in this industry. So, and we have him on this podcast and I'm very excited. And thank you for being here.

Thank you for saying what you have said. Very kind. Thank you. And I'm also very happy that having you in the team. having you is, is a blessing, and I won't be able to thank you enough for the rest of my life.

Thank you so much for that. Thank you. So I am really interested to hear, because I've— I don't get— I don't think I've ever actually heard your story, your personal story, but I would really love to hear it. I think we would all benefit from knowing how you were able to get sober from chemsex, and especially a dependency on GHB?

Yeah, okay. Well, my story with GHB started back in 2003, 2004. I, one day I found out that there was a new drug in the market, and I tried. And when I realized I was taking that drug day and night, and I was desperate trying to find information online, there was nothing. I didn't know there was anything called I thought that physical dependency was more for heroin users. And, and when I saw myself in that scenario, every time I was trying to stop, I was having— I was going through terrible withdrawal symptoms. And I was desperate trying to understand what was happening. I was having overdoses. And I was— so I— That was at that point, it wasn't connected to chemsex. It was just started recreationally going to clubs and meeting friends and all that. But I, I get— I got to the point when I, when I was— I had developed this dependency. And when I was asking for medical support, no one knew anything. I had to be giving the information about what this drug was about.

Hmm.

Now there is much more information about all that. But at that point, no one knew. I remember I had an overdose once and I woke up in a hospital. And then the doctor asked me, what did you take? And I had to be explaining And I said, oh, really? I didn't know anything. And it was, for me, it was very traumatic because I thought, these people, they are supposed to be looking after me and they don't know. So, and that was a long time ago. And then since then, I moved to London in 2008 to help people because I also had problems with cocaine, with ketamine. I moved to London to learn how to help people who were struggling with those drugs. And then we started— I joined a charity that was supporting LGBT community with drugs and alcohol, and it was mostly about cocaine, alcohol, sometimes a little bit of heroin and crack. But we started to see a new reality coming. People who were injecting drugs, which was something that wasn't happening in the gay community before. People who were developing, um, physical dependency, people who were presenting with those symptoms when they stopped, like me. And we need— and that was about Chemsex. That was Chemsex. We had to learn from zero because there was no information. No one knew anything. So we had to learn from people and people and people. And then, um, in 2012, until 2015, I was, I was trapped myself in that, in that reality. So I ended up using meth, crystal meth, every day, smoking, practically injecting at least once or twice a week.

Hmm.

G-dependency again. And I realized that my problems with the problems I had with drugs before compared to Chemsex, they were Nothing really. I mean, they were very, very, you know, very traumatic. But I really, really thought I wasn't going to be able to get over chemsex. I don't know why I'm alive. And I don't know why I'm not in prison. And I don't know why I'm not in a mental institution. Because I, you know, I could have ended up really, really bad. I was waking up every morning without knowing if I was going to be alive the the sunset. And here I am, I haven't taken anything since 2015. And that's why I can say out loud that there is life after chemsex. And happiness is an option because I haven't been happier my whole life.

What do you think was the final— what was the final straw? What made you decide to turn away from it?

Because I realized that every time that I was meeting someone, I was, I was putting myself through so, so, so much, so many risks that I realized, and I was, I was getting, I was, I was being lucky. For example, one day I I nearly killed someone by accident, and I— it was this distance, and I said, my God, I was lucky. And then the week after, I lost my job because someone reported. So I realized, I said, I'm being very lucky because there is lots of things happening, and one day I'm not going to be this lucky. I didn't really have a choice. When I said that I would be dead is because I was— I mean, As I said, waking up in a hospital, and then the doctor said, you have been, you have been dead for 3 minutes or 2 minutes. And I didn't even know who I was. So I was thinking, if I carry on this, one day I'm going to be this lucky. I didn't have a choice.

Yeah, yeah. Did you go to any type of drug treatment center?

I couldn't because, because I was working in this field and I was known in this, in the, in the field. So I had to find my way without support. And I, you know, so when you are using so much, you're so paranoid and you think, oh, people are going to know. Oh, and they want to talk about me, so I said no. So there are many options for people who want to stop, but unfortunately I couldn't— none of them was available for me.

Wow.

I thought that was— and yeah, I couldn't go to NA because I thought if I go to NA, I'm going to meet, to meet, to see half of the people who I'm officially supporting.

Yeah, yeah.

Wow.

Wow.

Yeah.

Well, that takes some real resolve on your part. What do you think you got the strength to do that?

Well, obviously, during these 3 years when I was using so heavily, I have tried many times. And I was always failing. And I was always failing because I wasn't aware that every time that I stopped, I always found the same obstacles. I was completely isolated. I didn't have any friend or anyone who I could turn to.

Mm-hmm.

I didn't know what to do with my free time. I didn't know how to have any sex without drugs. I didn't know how to experience any intimacy. I didn't know how to manage my emotions. So when I was stressed or when I was, um, upset or when I— all these things, every time that they happen, I was always going back to— and I realized, I say, if I want to get over this, the only solution I have is I need to start to make changes. I need to start to find excitement without joy, without drugs involved. I need to find a way to reconnect with sex and with intimacy without drugs. I need to find a way to start to open my social world and to start to make friends and to reconnect with old friends. Because I was— I, I have— the idea was clear. If I, if I don't do anything And if I just think of my life without drugs, if my life without drugs is going to mean loneliness, isolation, difficulties with my emotions, no intimacy, how, how long I'm going to be strong? One month? And after one month, I'm going to say, you know what, I'm, I'm fed up with fighting. I deserve to have a break, and I could get crazy.

Hmm.

So I have tried A few times, obviously it didn't work. And then, as what I said before, I didn't really have a choice. I remember that going to do lots of courses. I joined a course called, um, Action for Happiness. It's a mindfulness course for gay men based on an 8-week course about— um, no, that was the Gay Happiness Project. And then I joined a fencing club. And I went, I did another course, which is called Action for Happiness. It's about learning about happiness. I was going to loads of events and things where people went to meet friends, and I worked a lot on my self-esteem. So I, it, it wasn't from one day to the next. I had to actively work a lot in making changes.

Hmm.

Otherwise, I, I would be there when I probably, I would be there. But yeah, so here I am.

Yeah, yeah. Well, we're glad you're here.

Me too. Thank you.

Uh, yeah, so it sounds like isolation was, was a big factor in, in getting out there to make new friends. What do you think it— what would your number one piece of advice be for someone who is just scared to death to make friends. They know they, they need to make new connections because we know, we know the opposite of addiction is connection, right? What is the first step someone could take?

Well, it's interesting because sometimes people think that the only way I have to, I have to make friends is to go and to be around people or go on Grindr or an app and then go and meet someone and maybe Maybe you love fashion, and maybe you meet someone who is obsessed with football, and I hate football. So I go and I speak with this person, and I think, well, I don't have— I don't have anything in common with this guy. And sometimes I try once and twice and 3 times. And sometimes people think that these are my only options. And it's true that not everyone is into bars, not everyone is into apps, but it's true that in the, in our community, there is a big, big need of connection. And we always recommend people say maybe the approach could be different. Maybe instead of just going and to put yourself in a scenario where there are people, maybe what you could do is first explore what kind of things interest you. And maybe after that, you could think, well, okay, if I am, if I love tennis, Mm-hmm. it would be easier for me to connect with someone who is into tennis. more than someone who is into photography, because I'm not interested in photography. And this is a very important approach. Part of the work that we do at Controlling Chemistries is precisely about helping people to explore what kind of things interest them.

Mm-hmm.

When I stopped and I was in my own journey, I said, I need to meet people. And I said, what am I going— it has to be some— I need to find something that makes me feel very excited. And also that I want to meet people who are excited for the same reason. And that's why I started doing fencing. And I had never done fencing, but my whole life I thought, ah, that would be, that would be fun. And then one day I found a place, I found a fencing school, and I went there terrified, very scared. And I remember going there and it was so easy for me to make friends because—

Hmm.

Complicated. Fencing is complicated, and we were— it's tiring, and we love so much, and I have forgot how to love.

Hmm.

So yeah, this is part of the work that we do, is we need to make— say to my clients, we need to make your life beautiful. Otherwise, how am I going to spend the rest of my— I need to design how I'm going to experience The rest of my life.

Yeah, yeah, right, right. Love that. I love that. Um, so the question that I had too was, I, I haven't heard you say anything about 12-step meetings. Was that part of your recovery?

No, I, I have been— for me, anything that can help anyone to get over this has to be welcome. I'm not going to be here criticizing 12 Steps because 12 Steps has been— they are being incredibly supportive for lots of people. Lots of people love it. Lots of people don't like it. Fair enough. Some people would love the way how we work and some people would think that is not working. And everyone, at the end of the day, everyone is different. And I went there once and it wasn't really for me. I don't know if you want me to tell you why it wasn't for me.

Sure.

Yeah, I do. I do. You know, I, even though I have been— I haven't used anything since 2015, 9 years now. I really rejected the idea of spending the rest of my life calling myself an addict.

Hmm.

You know, I don't see myself as an addict. And I was using daily, and I was injecting drugs, and I was But I realized— and now you said, are you an addict? And I would say I went through a period where I was having lots of addictive behaviors, but I see myself as a free man.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, so it's there. I really don't like certain words. I don't like It's not for me. I don't like to say I have been clean for 7 months, 23 days, and 6 hours. It's because if you— what happened if you use, you are not clean, you are dirty.

Yeah.

Sometimes it can be a stigma there. And I— but again, this is my— is because of my nature and my personality that That wouldn't work for me. But again, I understand, and I— we, we— if, if someone is telling me I go to NA or to CNA, I'll say, carry— is it helpful? Yes, carry on going. So I don't think that my experience and my opinion about 12-step has to be the opinion that everyone has. That's right.

Yes. Yeah. But what a, what a great point to offer everyone. is that there are other options and you don't have to identify as an addict for the rest of your life. So thank you for that.

No, because, you know, and also because, I mean, people say, no, I am in recovery. And I think what recovery is, is if I break my leg and my leg heals and I recover, my leg goes back to normal. That's right. No one who has gone through this experience and gets over it is going to be the same person that they used to be before that, because you have changed your priorities. You understand, you learn a lot about yourself, about the world. You understand, you become more compassionate. You understand that we are a disaster and we can be messy, and who are we to judge? And maybe before, I was a very judgmental person who was thinking, ah, junkies, junkies, they will see.

Right.

So, but it's just my opinion. And if someone is, is hearing this, please don't take this as, hey, this guy's, this guy's looking— please don't get me wrong with that.

Yeah, well, you can write me. I want to have a debate about it. No, so, so I want to know, um, we can get to more more, uh, later, but I want to know a little more, a little more about the story in terms of your personal experience with discovering intimacy. And what was that like? What was the process? And was that the most difficult part for you, is rediscovering sober sex?

Well, when I was using Kenzo heavily, I was having lots of sex with lots of people all the time.

Yeah.

Sometimes I can't, I cannot really tell you how many.

Yeah.

But anyone who has got involved in chemsex heavily, we know that sex is very available. We use sex sometimes to deal with loneliness, with fantasies, with escapism, and it's very available. So I was— my perception about intimacy and about sex got completely blurred because I realized that I could have sex, but I did— I already knew how to fuck. And when I was taking these drugs, I was feeling, you know, these drugs make people feel very confident and sexy and attractive. And then you go, you meet someone, you are not scared if you are, you know, if you are fat or you are— no, you see, look at the mirror and you see a very sexy guy. And maybe you haven't slept in 2, 3, 4 days. And just, you know, you go to— you look at the music, look at me, I'm very hot. And so you— it's very, very, very appealing.

Yeah.

So you remove drugs and you don't feel sexy and attractive, and you have lots of shame, lots of guilt. You know how to perform in a sexual setting, but you don't really know how to have a conversation. You know, and you don't know what to do with someone if that person wants to go for dinner. And what I'm going to do is I go for dinner, what are we going to talk? And this is an experience that I had. Sometimes you are on camps and you feel very connected to someone. And you agree to meet to talk a lot. And then you agree to meet the week after for dinner and just realize that what did I see this guy if I have nothing to do with this person, and he figured exactly the same. So when you— when I, when I stopped doing chems, what I did was, first of all, I had to focus. I realized that sex at that point could be a little bit triggering. I have to be careful. And so while I was looking after myself and building up my strategies and my, my, my tools And at some point I realized, I said, I cannot ignore this. I get horny sometimes. Sex is very available. I don't know how to stop sex. And if I want to, if I want to heal all this, I need to find a way to, to, to get over that. And then, you know, I have told you many times, the first time I have sober sex, it has to be successful. Because if the first time I have sex is a disaster, the second time is going to be impossible. And I say, what is what I need to be successful? And when I say successful is I don't need to see fireworks or anything like that. But what I need to do is if I go and see someone, I— for me, successful is to leave the house of that person thinking, you know what, it was nice. I want, I want to keep exploring this. And I also understood, I think, if I want to do— if I want to be successful, successful, it has to be with someone who is nice and is someone who is not going to be pushing me to do this and that. It's someone who is at some point I want to say, it was enough for me for today. He's not going to get upset with me. Someone, if I ask, what's your name? He's not going to say, why do you need to know that?

That's right.

I had to find the right person. It was someone who worked for that day. I wasn't looking for a partner or anything like that, right? And the thing is, what am I going to do? And I say, if I, if I force myself to do everything that I think I do when I'm high— penetration, this and this and this and that— I'm going to have lots. So maybe the first time is just about being naked with someone in the same bed without expectations, and just for 1 hour. And after an hour saying, I'm going to go And what I did, I remember I spoke with the guy and said, just one thing, I can go at 6. And I said that I have to be somewhere at 7:30. So I had the perfect excuse to at some point have to go. And I, and then I said, I have to go. Thank you, it was very nice to meet you. Another day, another day, you know, another day is never, sometimes, normally, right? Right. But it was, it was, it was written by me. And now I am very— because chemsex can be, can be very frustrating because it's not that you go and you have lots of sex and you fulfill your fantasies. Chemsex is lots about problems with erectile problems. Also, people, they cannot get a hard-on, and then you end up taking Viagra like if you were taking candies. The problem is that you maybe you have promoted yourself as a very, very active dog, and you have someone who says, "Hey, come on!" And and you do your best to get a hard on, but you can't. Or maybe you are expecting someone else to be a good dog. And also, it's it's not always easy to to finish to ejaculate. Some it's very normal to end up watching porn at home, trying to find that perfect movie to watch. To, to wank on your own. And maybe you have been 3 days having sex with lots of people, but you couldn't finish them. So it can be very frustrating. It's not that sex is amazing. And no, there are many, many issues here. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. I always said, you know, it's— it was such a— it was so ironic that, that Tina was a— is a sex drug, but there was hardly ever any sex happening. In my experience, you know, because of that, you know, the bragging about all that, and then you get there, nobody can get hard or whatever. And there's other options for that. But I want to ask, where do you find— if I'm a— if I want to explore sober sex, and I want to kind of— I would love the opportunity to have a conversation and maybe just lay in bed for an hour naked with someone. Where do you find someone who doesn't have the expectations of sex? Like, All right, where would you find those kind of men?

Well, it depends on where you are. Um, if you are in a big city, obviously it's easier because there are more options.

There are—

I always recommend there is a website, it's called Massage Exchange. Okay. And you go there to meet people to share, to share massage. So it's a very good start because you meet someone and the idea is not Unless you, you can negotiate before and say, okay, I don't want to have sex, but you start to feel naked and somebody's touching your body without the pressure of I need to go and I need to end up fucking. This is a good example. Some people, for example, they go to— they go on Tinder, they go— sometimes people go on, on apps, even Grindr. When you feel confident, I say, well, there is nothing really that I'm going to use Grindr, but I'm going to use Grindr. I'm going to be careful when Because if I go in the middle of the night, it's very likely that I'm going to find drugs. If I'm going to go weekends, probably I'm going to find drugs. But if I go on Wednesday at 4 PM, maybe it's easier. And there are many people, so it depends. And sometimes it's about, okay, I'm going to go to these events in Mita where there is, uh, there are events that are for Tantra.

Mm-hmm.

sex or massage, and it's a safe— they are normally safe spaces. But as I said, it depends on where you live. You live in the middle of nowhere, it's going to be a little bit more complicated, so you will have to work harder.

Yeah.

But there is— there are always options, and people always find a way. It's important to remember the most difficult one is going to be the first time. If you go away— because at the end of the day, if we understand how sober sex works, We know that, we know that many times, many times it's disappointing. Many times you don't connect with someone. Many times you feel, um, you don't feel very confident and you are scared of rejection. And this is also sober sex. If your expectations of sober sex have to be amazing 100% of the time, you won't be able to deal with the frustration. Or maybe someone you thought was nice and is not. Or maybe You, you felt very excited initially, but then at some point you didn't feel this is sober sex. And if you are having sober sex and you understand sober sex, you, you wouldn't create a drama here. You would say, well, this is, this is what happens. It's like, it's not going to last 7 hours, probably it's going to be 20 minutes or half an hour. I need to be realistic. It's not a failure if it's lasting half an hour. But if my expectations when I have chemsex, there has to be 3 hours or 48 hours. Yeah, does it make sense? Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's important for all the listeners. If you— well, if you are trying to get past this, is that it requires some patience. It requires to zoom out and, and look at the broader view and the journey and the process. Like you said, like with, with Tina, you go into an instant sexual opportunity and experience, but when you're getting off of it, you have to work at it. You have to have some patience with it. So it's very important. I think something that you said is the first time might be horrible. You know, but yeah, if you want to find happiness, and if you want intimacy, just keep plugging away at it, right? Yeah.

But it's very exciting as well, because at the end of the day, I have to redesign how I want the rest of my life to be. Because if I have been relying on drugs to manage my emotions, to deal with my frustration, to, to deal with my sadness, or with And I don't want to do that. What am I going to do with my emotions? What am I— how am I going to— what kind of people I would like to meet? And maybe I said, you know what, I really want to meet— before I was going to clubs and I, I really did, I knew everyone. But now I say I really want to meet, to meet, to have meaningful relationships. And I want to go on holidays this summer with people who care about me. And it's, it's, it takes time, but it's, it's very, very interesting because it's not that, okay, I arrived here to, to the 19th of March, 2024, and I went with the flow and here I am. It's like, that doesn't work anymore.

Right, right.

You know.

Yeah, yeah. So what made you start getting on Grindr and talking men out of using?

Because in 19— no, 19— in 2019, 2018, I created a document with David Stewart. David Stewart was the number one activist in chemsex. We have been working very, very close. We were very good friends for since 2008. Unfortunately, he died in 2022.

Hmm.

But in 2018, we realized that there were lots of things happening in chemsex scenarios— overdoses, sexual assault, psychotic episodes— and we realized that people, they didn't really know how to react when they— when that happened. So we spent 4 months talking, having conversations with paramedics, the London Ambulance Service, 999, which is the, you know, the number that you need to call with psychiatrists. And we were putting together information about how to react if something went— something was going wrong.

Hmm.

So we, we, we were covering, for example, what happens if you are with someone who is overdosing on GHB? what you have to do if that person is not wakeable, when you have to call an ambulance, recovery. So, what happened if someone was having problems with psychotic episode? So, we put this information together, and David wanted to spread this among professionals. But I told him, David, it's fantastic that we spread this among professionals, but this has to go to people who are actually in the parties.

Yeah.

And then, um, what I did was I created a profile on Grindr. It was just, um, you know, the picture was a first aid kit, um, and I was just saying, um, if you want to get information about how to react if something happened in an emergency scenario, please contact this profile and we will send you the link. And that was the idea originally. But the problem was that there were many people contacting this profile for many, many different reasons.

Hmm.

Example, I don't know how to support my boyfriend, or someone who was contacting saying, I really need help, but I cannot go to the services that are open because they only open certain, certain hours of the week and I'm working, or I live far away, or I am a trans girl and these services are for gay men and I And I don't identify myself as a gay man. So there were lots of issues coming out that no one had been covering because there was, at that point, there was— and in London there was Antidote, there was the Clapham Clinic, and there was Dean Street, and they had the same approach.

Hmm.

But they were missing Lots of things. These places, for example, they are basing droppings. You go there on Thursday, for example, between 5 and 7, and you have to wait in a waiting room to be— until you are seen by a specialist. And the problem is that many people couldn't go there because they were so paranoid that thinking, I cannot go to a room where maybe I'm going to meet a friend of my friend, or maybe—

Mm-hmm.

So lots of people, they just couldn't go there. And I was asking, Are you going— people contacting this profile and asking, have you asked for support before? And I said no. And they say, is there any reason why? And I say, yes, I cannot go to a drop-in. I'm really scared. I'm so paranoid I cannot go on the bus or on the subway. So when that was the— when I started to see this, I was very— because no one had thought about that. You know, right. And I, I tried to professionalize that because what was, I think in one year, I received maybe 13,000 messages from people.

Wow. Wow.

Huge. I promise you, some people, they were asking for nothing, but some people, they were asking for help or some for information or for advice. And then I had lots of screen captures, lots of data that I have been collecting. And I went to see the CEO of the 5 biggest organizations here. And it was funny because the reason how I could get an interview, because I, the, in the subject of the, the email, I said, I want to bring £50,000 to your charity. And then they said, what? I want to know more. I want to know more. When I went there with the data and with the screen captures on everything, a conversation happened on happening on Grindr. They said, oh, well, but we are very busy, but we cannot do that. And for me, it was really, really, really traumatic because I was expecting that someone was going to say, wow, let's do something about it.

Yeah.

And no one wanted to do anything. So at some point someone said, so you— some— I was, I was honestly, I was with a huge depression because I was waiting a lot with lots of passion. And I said, well, this is, this is what— and then someone said to me, so what are you going to do? Because the need is here. There was a very important member of Public Health England, which is the, like, the Ministry of Health, who said to me, please forget about all this, just go and find a job. And yeah, and I was thinking, after everything that I have been seeing on Grindr, I can't do that. So someone said, well, maybe you should think about opening something. And I thought, I'm going to open anything if I am not— I don't even know how this country works, how things are in the sense of democracy and legally. And, and I was on my own. And then at some point I said, well, you know what, let's, let's— I went to, I went online and I said, setting, setting up charities, nonprofit organizations. I didn't understand the majority of what I was reading, but someone said, said, well, there is some legal entities called community interest companies. You don't really need a team. And I said, well, let's Let's try. And I started it, and it has been— that was in 2020, 4 years ago.

Wow.

And, and now we have the structure, we have— we are a nonprofit organization, everything is legally legal. Yeah, yeah. We have their Instagram, we have— and we are supporting people from all over the world, really.

Yeah.

Unfortunately, chemsex now is everywhere.

Yeah.

Chemsex support is very, very limited. For example, in the States, you know, Dallas, better than anyone.

Yeah.

You know, so here we are. Yeah.

Yeah. So, so controlling chemsex is, uh, can you just briefly describe for us, um, what exactly it does now? That you've, you've grown it for 4 years. What is it doing now?

Well, the, the idea, the original idea was to offer support on Grindr and Scruff. But then at some point, just, it was like that. I have prepared everything to work online because I didn't have any money to have any venue or anything. I was on my own. And then, uh, 10 days later, Because that was on the 20th of February is when I set everything up on 20th of February 2020. And 2 weeks later was the first lockdown with COVID So all the cancer services, all of them, they shut down because they were— everyone was operating face to face. So the people of the Chem 16 at Dean Street, this clinic, were happy being part of this team. One time they said, hey, we would like to join um, controlling themselves. And I said, oh, suddenly I had a team of people who have been doing this for a long time.

Wow.

Because the idea was to do everything online. So I said, okay, well, we are going to start to offer one-to-one support. But that wasn't the idea because I was on my own. I said, I cannot— I got to see, yeah, 3 people a week or 15. But so, um, And then that was the team of key workers. And then someone who saw one of our profiles on Grindr, he said, hey, I'm studying psychosexual and relationship therapy, and I'm looking for a place to do my placement as part of my studies.

Hmm.

And when I— when we were— psychosexual therapy is the therapy that is very helpful for people who are experiencing problems with psychosexual and relationship issues, which sometimes people manage through chems. For example, premature ejaculation. I have been— in my sex life has been always very embarrassing because every time I have sex, I didn't last more than 2 minutes.

Yeah.

Um, and I one day, I, I find these drugs and these drugs help me to hold my ejaculation. For me, it's amazing. But if I— if this is starting to affect my finances, my work, my, my family, my— and I have to stop unless I address my premature ejaculation, I will be, I will be relapsing. And this is premature ejaculation, lack of libido, problems with intimacy, painful sex. And the right professionals are the psychosexuals. And when we were in Dean Street, this clinic, and I remember there was only one psychosexual therapist for the whole clinic. And every time the clinic—

Biggest.

If it's not the biggest sexual health clinic in the world, Certainly it's in Europe. This is huge. I think— I don't know how many thousand. It's huge. And this clinic, they had only one psychosexual therapy. And when we referred someone, it took maybe 6 months just for the assessment. And maybe 3, 4 months later, they gave that person one session a month.

Wow.

So when this person saw our profiles and I say, I'm going to do my placement, I Yes, please, and put me in contact with your university. And then the university starts to send more people. So now we offer psychosexual therapy very, very quickly. If someone needs psychosexual therapy, we have a team of psychosexual therapists. The same that if someone is in the need of chemsex support, we offer support very, very quickly. We have— we are supporting people who are affected by the chemsex use of a loved one. We have 2 people who are helping them. Because if I— if my son, if my brother, if my— they contact us and I say, can you please— I need some perspective because I don't understand anything. So we help these people too. We are— some people saw our profiles and they say, I would like to help because I was struggling with chemsex in the past myself. But I, I work in finance and I don't have any experience working with people. We train these people to give what is called peer mentoring, you know.

Ah.

So we are— the services are developing naturally because when I— when everything started, it was Grindr. And now is every time that we identify that there is a need of something, We work, we work hard, we work fast. We have a program, it's an email program for people who need support from day one on a daily basis.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so it's not that, okay, you contact us today and we will reply in 3 weeks. If you contact us today, we reply today. And also we have, we, because we are getting support, we are supporting people from all over the world. And it's not sustainable that we can rescue the whole world. We are going to start this course on Saturday, together with Impulse Group, which is an American organization. And it's going to be a course. So it's not about people coming together to share experiences. It's week 1, how to identify realistic goals. Week 2, how to manage cravings. Week 3, how to identify triggers.

Mm-hmm.

And we are very excited with this. I think it's going to be very helpful. So we are doing, and maybe next year we are doing something else that we haven't identified yet, but life, life is opening our eyes all the time. Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So, you know, if you're listening and you want, you have some money that you want to donate to a great cause, this is it. This is it. And I don't know of anything like this being offered in the States. Is there?

Well, unfortunately, it's not in the States apart from people like yourselves or they dispose of it. And normally the programs are very much based on harm reduction. So they give you needles and it's good because some people, but some people, they want to minimize risk, but not everyone wants to minimize risk, and some people, they want to stop. And if you want to stop and harm reduction is not for you, there are options with 12 steps. Problem with 12 steps is not for everyone, and also it's very much based on substances. So, if I am using drugs because of, because of my sex drive, or my— I go to meetings and I cannot— how can I talk about my sex life there?

Yeah.

So, some people find that a problem. And also, so, the services in the States, many of them are private. So, you need to have insurance. So, you need to pay. And also, if you even go to a rehab, maybe you go to a place where they have never heard about the work themselves, which is a big problem because the majority of our society never heard that.

That's right. That's right. That's exactly right. Yes. Yeah. So these men come to Controlling Chemsex, they get 8 to 10, 8 to 10 free one-on-one sessions with what's called a key worker.

Yeah.

And psychosexual access to psychosexual therapists. And then the global— you were talking about—

Yeah.

Ignacio mentioned the Global Chemsex Summit. It's going to be those, those modules that he listed. They're going to be online. We'll put the links to everything in the show notes. These are all free services and we're filling a gap that is not there. And if you say the word chemsex in a mixed crowd, I've tried it. You say chemsex, for the most part, people don't understand what that means. They do not understand what is going on.

Exactly. And we— that's why I'm so happy, Dallas, with what you are doing. And also, I was very excited of coming here today because we need to talk about this. There are people who are losing everything, losing their lives and losing— yes. And, and these people, what they need is compassion and help. Chemsex is not about irresponsible people who are prioritizing sex and drugs over anything else. Chemsex is a trap.

Yes.

And I agree, and I appreciate a lot what you are doing with this podcast, apart from what you are doing at Controlling Chemsex, because, Dallas, you are, you are incredible. And it's, it's fantastic because you also— we have, as you know, we have another one of our volunteers is based in Tennessee, Andrew. One of our volunteers is based in Perth in Australia. We have another one in Amsterdam. We have another one in Barcelona. And so we, we have to work hard. And it's true that we— everything that we offer is for free because we understand that this kind of support has to be for free.

That's right.

You cannot make profit from the from the unhappiness of people. What happened with those who kind of paid?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because when you're at the— when you, you're at your rock bottom, when you're ready to change with Tina at Crystal Meth, for the most part, you have just— you've lost it all. You've lost it all. I mean, I did, you know, I was homeless. And that's when I decided to change. I mean, it's, it's not the case every time. But, you know, who can afford to pay for therapy? You don't have insurance anyway. So Yeah.

Exactly. And here in the UK, in Europe in general, we have, we have public health support. In America, unfortunately, you need insurance and you need money. And we, we, we really care about America. In fact, the course that we are doing is very much considering the time zone in New York. Because there is lots of— there is a big need of this support, and I can't ignore it. We have never said anyone who contacted us to say no, sorry, because you don't live here.

Yeah, yeah.

And I don't care if someone is American or someone is Japanese.

That's right, that's right. And everybody should know that this isn't A, a— this is an epidemic that is targeting the gay male population, men having sex with men. And it's not just in the big cities. It is literally global, and it's everywhere. It's hiding in plain sight. Like I said, if you don't believe me, make a Grindr profile. You can find a party going on anytime, day or night, 24/7, within an hour of wherever you are. This is a problem. And so, yeah, and harm reduction is something that also I think is misunderstood in the States.

Yeah, I think harm reduction is basic and we need harm reduction. Harm reduction, if someone is telling you, sometimes on Grindr someone tells one person, say, don't tell me that drugs are very bad. I know that, but I'm going to use that with information or without. So can you please tell me where can I get fresh needles?

Yeah.

What am I going to say? No, sorry, I don't, I don't want you to get drugs. And then what I'm going to say to, to allow someone who will be sharing needles and to get at risk of getting Hep C or—

Yeah.

HIV. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's very, unfortunately, not everyone understands harm reduction. Yeah. But thanks God there is harm reduction because otherwise There were lots of people who would be dying. That's right. More people die because there are lots of people dying already.

That's right. Yeah. Look at what's happening in Portugal.

Yeah. This is in Portugal. Then we are supporting people also who are contacting us from Portugal because what is the problem that sometimes people find that access local services where they live is not easy because if you don't live in a big place, you think I'm not going to there because I'm sure that someone is going to know me. That is another reason why people contact us. Yeah, you know. Yeah, but we are, you know, we are passionate, we are energized, and yeah, we have to work hard. This is, this is not just a thing to be lazy. People are in the need of this.

That's right, that's right. Well, my friend, what have I missed? today. Is there anything I haven't asked that you would want to be included in this conversation?

I feel a little bit bad for what I said about 12 steps, I have to admit, because I said I don't want to criticize, but I haven't been very kind to 12 steps. And I promise you that this is not— I mean, my personal experience is my personal experience, but I am recommending 12 steps. Many— if someone is using daily, for example, and is completely isolated, that person needs something. And that 12 steps is offering, which is community. Yeah, you know, it's not that, oh my God, they are horrible. And no, it's just, you asked me about my personal experience, and I should have been a little bit more politically correct, I think. Yeah.

Well, I am a lot less politically correct when it comes to the 12 steps. And though in this podcast, there's a lot of talk about that, in my experience with it, I do think it's It is a good program for the very beginning because it gives you grounding. It gives you structure for, you know, 90 in 90 days or whatever. You know, I think it's a beginning. I think where we're missing it is keeping people in it for the long haul. And it's inhibiting you from actually recovering. And like you said, like, you walk with a broken leg for the rest of your life because every time you're triggered, you have to call a sponsor. This is all my opinion, not yours. But you have to call a sponsor, you have to go to a meeting instead of self-regulating and finding, finding the answer in yourself and moving on, moving on with your life. So I— this is what I preach day in and day out. So don't feel bad.

I think this space is fantastic. People can— our name is easy to find, Controlling Game Sex. I remember initially saying, how can you call a nonprofit organization Controlling Chemsex? And I said, because I— it has to be something that people recognize immediately.

Right, that's right.

You know, and I, I, I noticed this when people were very— said, no, no, you can't, you have to say something like, let's say for example, Supporting Tina. And, and then when we went last year to the gay parade in London, And there were other organizations with the banners, and then you see different names and you see, okay, fine. For example, let's say I'm going to, um, Living Well, uh, Fighting for the Stars, and you see, well, that could be a sexual health service or it could be about refugees.

That's right.

But when we— when people saw the banner saying Controlling Chemsex, there were so many people coming and they, please, carry on, keep doing what you are doing. That's what— and that has been also closing doors because getting funding for us is very, very difficult. Because when, when we apply for, for grants, for example, and someone is, is making the decision and say, what is this thing called Chemsex? And then they read and they say, oh, it's about drugs and it's about sex and it's about gay sex. No, no, no, no, no.

Yeah.

Which is fantastic, but it is not helping us. But yeah, the good— the benefits are higher, and is that people can find us quickly. So controllingchemsex.com.

controllingchemsex.com. And that's— yeah, I was gonna ask, I was gonna ask, where can we find you? controllingchemsex.com.

controllingchemsex.com. And if someone is interested in the course, the course is called globalchemsextoolbox.com. In any case, in controllingchemsex.com, there is information about the course. So is there if someone is interested, and if someone needs anything, in our website you will have an email and we will reply shortly.

Yes, and on the website, guys, girls and guys, there's some really great free information about exploring kinks and fetishes and sex after. I mean, there's So much on just on the website controllingchemsex.com that you can access that you don't really see anywhere else. You really can't find this information in a lot of places. So because, you know, I have a lot of men come to me and say, I want— I have this fetish and this kink, but now I can't do it, you know, but, but you can. There's, there's a way to still explore and not, not use drugs, right? So Exactly.

We have one of the modules of the course is how to reconnect with sober sex, and we will have a guest of someone who is— who he was into kinky sex. He was using chems for that. At some point he had to stop and he thought, if I want to— if I don't want to relapse, I need to find a way to engage with kinky sober sex. And he's coming to give strategies and tools. For someone who says, okay, so if I stop chemsex, what's going to happen with my sex life? So, we have to— we cannot ignore that. That is, for many people, this is an option and it's great, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, so here we are. And the content in our website has been created for For people who understand, who are in the chemsex reality, it's not about— you won't find information what are the drugs, but people use crystal meth, it's a stimulant. Yes, we know that, but people who are struggling with chemsex, they need help about mental health and about how to avoid unplanned sessions, how to, how to cravings, how to deal relapses. So there, there we are for anyone who needs anything. Great.

Good. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you for inviting me. Thank you for everything, Dallas.

We're going to— thank you. We're going to put you all the links into the show notes. I just want to say to end the show that if you'd like to Be on the show. I would really love to have your story if you've overcome chemsex, crystal meth, or if you're currently struggling with it. Please, you know, reach out to me. You can email us at aftermathpod@gmail.com if you're a family member, a loved one. And what I'm really wanting, what I'm missing right now, is partners who have either lost their partner to this drug or have been able to work together to get past it. There's a need for this information to get out there. There's a lot of partners who are struggling with their other partner using crystal meth, and they don't know how to handle it, what to look for. And I'd really love to have that information on this show. But also, for, for me, in terms of subscribing, please subscribe to our newsletter. It's at drdallasbragg.com. We do have a Facebook community It's The Aftermath. If you want to join the community, engage in conversation on a daily basis, provide support, support for others, please think about joining. If you want to leave us a voicemail message, it is 704-559-9555. Thank you. Please remember to like, share, rate the podcast so we can help the algorithm. We want to get as many people looking at this podcast, whether they know anything about crystal meth or not. As possible. Thank you very much, and we will see you all next time.

Thank you.