EP 1:8 Alternatives to the 12 Steps with Andrew Moses

And there's even documentaries on YouTube where these people say, I went to do ayahuasca and I never drank again, you know, all that kind of thing. I do it for— I think it's important if you're listening, if you do consider an ayahuasca retreat to, you know, don't expect a miracle, but do expect a perspective shift, which I think is the most important.

Yeah.

The most important part of spiritual growth, mental growth, physical growth, any kind of growth is just changing your perspective on life. Welcome to The Aftermath Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg, a former crystal meth addict, now sobriety coach. Join me on my mission to increase awareness around the epidemic of crystal meth among the gay male population and create a repository of resources for current and past addicts, as well as and especially for their loved ones. This is The Aftermath. Trigger warning, this podcast will contain discussions pertaining to drug and alcohol misuse. If you feel triggered to use or relapse, please call SAMHSA's National Hotline at 1-800-662-HELP. Also, if you are new in your sobriety journey and you feel like you could be triggered by discussions around drug, alcohol, and sex misuse, please do not listen to this podcast. All right, now on with the show.

Hey there everyone, it's Sober Steve the Podcast Guy from Gay A, the Super Sober Hero Show.

It's the podcast where I interview queer people and our allies about the amazing accomplishments they make in sobriety personally and for our community at large. Check out episode 188 where I talk about overcoming grief sober and managing ADHD with Andy A. You are listening to the Aftermath Podcast. Here's your host, Dr. Dallas Bragg. Okay, welcome to another episode of The Aftermath. So glad that you are here, and I'm also very glad and grateful and actually a little starstruck at our guest today, um, Andrew Moses. Andrew Moses is the Queer Drug Coach. He's based in Melbourne, Australia. Um, he is known for his TikTok presence where he Have been posting there for 2 years under that name. There's plenty of history of substance abuse there, starting with OxyContin in his early 20s, progressing to meth in his early 30s. So drawing from his personal journey and his work with queer individuals globally, he has developed a non-12-step— love it— approach to healing, focusing on compassion. Trauma and somatics. I love this. I love this. I want to hear more about it. His philosophy emphasizes the lessons that substance abuse can teach. I love that too. And the importance of extending compassion, acceptance, and understanding for personal growth and evolution. Welcome to the show, Andrew. Hello.

Thank you for having me. Hello, everyone.

So let's start. I always start with a little wellness check-in. Just want to check in. How are you doing? And what time is it there in Australia.

It is 11 AM over here. So I'm doing well today. I'm doing well today. I am currently in a big push towards a big workshop, my first ever workshop that I'm going to be running. It might come out before this recording comes out, but that's my main focus. So I'm in a big push towards that, but I'm doing well today.

Good, good. Will the workshop be accessible After, like, so if this is aired after, we'll talk about the workshop then. Yeah, make sure.

Yeah, let's, let's, let's cover the workshop. It'll be the first of hopefully many, and it'll absolutely be accessible as a recording on my website afterwards. So if people are interested, they can go there as well, and we'll talk about that during the, during the episode today.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. So I'm— this is past my bedtime.

Yeah, I just had a bit really early.

But I wanted to make sure that we caught with you. The lighting is kind of weird. Sorry if you're watching this, but I look more gray than usual, but it's okay. We'll go with it. I, you know, when I started, when I started coaching or started my business, it's been January of 2023. I thought there's nobody else out there. I know there's got to be nobody else out there who is addressing meth use in the queer community. And the first person I saw in my search on Instagram was you.

Oh my God.

Oh damn, he's already doing it. But so well, you know, I'm just continually impressed by your videos. And I'm just like, I don't know how I'll ever have that much knowledge. But you just really, really have a presence. But also what I love the most is your authenticity, because I can just tell it comes through your videos just how much of a heart you have for the queer community and and just the the journey that you're on to to to meet your mission. So I appreciate that, and I just want to honor that with you.

Thank you. That's like super cool. Yeah, that's super cool. Go on. Go ahead.

Yeah, yeah.

I just wanted to say. I just wanted to say. I just wanted to say that um I had the same feeling when I jumped on, and I'm like. Well, first I thought there must be someone talking about like drug use in the queer community from a non-12-step perspective. But as I've sort of looked broadly, I think there's a few of us in very like small spaces. But I think there's a huge lack, basically. And that's like, I guess, that's the space we're trying to fill because I see a huge need for it. So I kind of did the same thing as you. And it was fun to see you. And when you reached out to me, I'm like, at least there's someone else out here doing the same thing.

Yeah, yeah, I actually haven't. I'll have to do— I haven't searched well enough, but I haven't, I haven't noticed anyone else specifically for especially crystal meth. And, you know, when I was looking at— when I was doing research to start this podcast, I started looking, I was like, there, I don't see any podcasts. There's, you know, there's some, some queer sober podcasts. but nothing that looks specifically at crystal meth, and especially one that's not 12-step based. So I'm excited to offer this and I'm excited to have you here.

Yeah, when you told me the premise for this podcast, I was like, it couldn't be more aligned. I've sort of been on TikTok for a while now, especially after working with a lot of queer people. I mean, probably half of my clientele, I would say, are gay men struggling with chemsex. You know, chemsex often comes with a whole assortment of other substance abuse issues as well. But it's definitely like a specific place of mine. And when I started talking about it on TikTok, I don't think there was any— like, if you search chemsex on TikTok, nothing. Like, I'm like the first 6 results, basically. And when I started making videos, people were kind of shocked. First of all, I don't think I knew and no one else knew if you could even use the word chemsex on TikTok. But it turns out TikTok's pretty lenient, actually.

Really? I was going to ask you about that because I've I've steered away from it. Yeah.

So I feel like everyone intuitively steered away from using drug names on TikTok, but it actually allows you to use most drug names I've found. I haven't really had any videos. I think if you talk about sex, if you use the word sex too much, it seems to like not enjoy it. So, but also if you change the caption, then you can, you can get around that. But using the word meth, fine. OxyContin is fine. Weed is fine. Chemsex is fine. So it's been nice to like actually just present and not be like, you know, you see people talking about drugs and they'll use like the letter 3 and the thingo and it's like, it just, something about it doesn't feel like as real as like just say the word to me. And I guess it's been surprising and people have really responded well to talking about this sort of insight into chemsex in the gay community.

Nice. Well, it needs to be talked about. It really does. And like we were talking before the podcast that When we talk about these things in public, when we, you know, when we're vulnerable and we bring up these hard issues, it is therapeutic for so many men out there. And you know as well as I do, you hear from them, they start messaging you, thank you for saying that.

Yeah.

You know, I've been living in this shame. I know a lot of crystal meth addicts who are gay men who go to AA because they're afraid to admit that they have a— they've been addicted to meth at all.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Exactly. The response has been wild just from sharing, and you were exactly— we were talking about this before— just sharing my personal story. But we all know how much of a presence it is as well. Like, you know, I've now got clients in like almost every major city in the US, in Berlin, in the UK, all over Australia, and every single city has a pretty thriving chemsex scene. You know, you can jump on Grindr at almost any time of day, especially after midnight, and find exactly what you're looking for in 5 minutes. Anyway, all over Australia— Perth, Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne— all over the US, like Orlando, San Francisco, Seattle, Austin, Brooklyn, Philadelphia, everywhere. Toronto in Canada. Like, I've got clients in all these cities and every single one of them has a thriving scene. And I think there's some really interesting reasons which we're going to get into today, obviously, of like why it's such a presence. And I think that it's sorely needed to give people some understanding because people get themselves really fucked up in those scenes as well and really get themselves stuck in some awful situations that are really dangerous. So, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And that's when this podcast comes out, it's launching for April 4th. uh, my, my why I'm launching it episode comes out, and I'll talk about, just like what you're saying, is no other drug has its own app. Because let's just face it, crystal meth has its own app called Grindr, right? There's— it has its own Telegram page, WhatsApp page, it has its own Zoom channel. You can go and use with men all over the world anytime you want, 24/7.

Mm-hmm.

This is, this is a nuanced chemical drug that needs to be treated in a different way. And I'm— and like you're saying, there's a gap not only in sober coaches, but the treatment centers, therapists, they aren't— they don't know how to adequately treat this drug, especially treat gay men who have been a victim of it.

Yes, yes. And I think that, um, I think where I'm coming from a lot is like, I feel like there's two sides to recovery broadly, which is like, there's the philosophical underpinnings of how you see what drug use actually is and what substance abuse actually is. I think I've been putting a lot of my work into that. And then there's actually the treatment, which I've sort of started to realize they're actually different things. So, it's like, I feel like 12-step, especially in the US, has infiltrated like a mind virus. Every single, even rehabs, it's just the way, even people's families, even the way their parents relate to them and their substance abuse is sort of—

Yeah.

It's clouded and shadowed by 12-step ideology, especially around relapse and addiction and all that kind of stuff. So, I think that the underpinnings, and I completely agree with you, where chemsex is a unique beast, basically, because it combines 2 things. It's not just substance use. It is combined with this whole world that is built. And we're going to talk about what that provides to people. But what I find is it's actually unique. And if you don't have experience with it and don't understand it, you can't treat it like regular substance abuse, basically.

Yeah. Yeah.

Wow.

I could listen to you for hours and hours.

You're gonna get me going today. I've got, I just like, when you spoke to me yesterday, you're like, I really liked your video and I wanna talk about chemsex in the gay community and like the reasons why. And I'm like, are you serious? I could like talk for hours. Like I find it really, really exciting and exhilarating. And like the fact that I get to bounce off of someone as opposed to just talking to a void on my phone is really exciting for me today.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, do you wanna tell us, the listeners, a little bit about your story?

Sure. Yeah, okay. So I grew up, I was very closeted, very closeted. I grew up in a Jewish community here in Melbourne. I wasn't religious, but I think it was that sort of like immigrant conservative, that conservative sort of traditional immigrant family, immigrant society, immigrant community that I think made being gay just not— it wasn't like openly homophobic, but it was just like— it's not going to happen. It's just not going to happen for you. You're going to marry a Jewish woman and have kids because that's your duty in life. And so, I think that that made it really difficult for me to— I would perform. This sort of like the queer trauma, like I talk about it, basically like sort of initiation of shame from a young age and then choosing or not choosing, feeling like I had to perform to be accepted and loved and validated. by my family and sort of building a whole fake identity. And so my real identity sort of goes unassessed and unaddressed. And so I think that, so my first way of coping with that through school is to be like a really good student. I'm like the top of the class student, really well behaved, right? So I'm that version, I'm the perfectionist version. And then as soon as I finished school, I start to discover drugs and I'm like, hmm, I'm like really into it.

Really?

I'm really into it. I'm still playing it straight, I'm dating women, Very closeted. Like, I think I like to talk about the different types of closeted. I was— so there's like, I feel like there's a few types. There's the people who like always knew they were queer, gay, and sort of like, there's still the stigma and you still have a lot of internalized shame, but you sort of always knew.

Right.

There's the other type that— and look, there might be more than these types. There's the other type where you are— there's the other type where you know personally that you're gay, but you don't share it openly. And so you're sort of behind closed doors. So you're sort of closeted to everyone else, but to yourself, you're at least admitting what the real reality is. I was another version, which was I was even closeted to myself as well.

Yeah.

So, up until the age of 24 when I came out, I literally was trying to continually convince myself that I was instilling into women. So, I carried even more shame. And so, it was in that context that I think I discovered drugs for the first time. I found OxyContin. It was a long story, but basically my grandmother had like an excess supply of OxyContin. And I got my hands on it and I started to play around with it and I was like, damn, this is good shit. This is really good shit. Considering where I was at and considering how I felt about myself and how sort of lost I was and how little I knew of myself and sort of how closeted I was, I think OxyContin was just a really exciting drug for me to numb out.

Interesting.

Yeah. And so, I spent 4 years using OxyContin. I ended up getting off OxyContin by going to a doctor and getting Suboxone. And I've sort of shared this story before, but I think that— and I think this sort of illuminates some of the issues and it's why I've come into the space in the way that I have, where in that period at about 26 years old when I'm getting off OxyContin, I'm offered treatment for my drug use, but I'm not offered treatment for the reason I was using drugs.

Right.

So, no one's helping me understand that there's actually a reason I'm using drugs. And if I don't address that reason, I can get off the drug, but I'm also just probably going to get into another one. And so, I was offered the drug treatment, but about a month later, I got into meth. I started using meth. I was like, well, what else? I was pretty gung-ho. I didn't really care much. Everything felt a little bit— I felt incredibly lost. I didn't know how to live in the world. I didn't know who I was. So, I started using meth again. And then, that takes me through to the age of 30. So, I'll stop there and you can ask questions about that. But that's basically my drug background. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Thank you for sharing. What a different type, 2 different types of drugs too, because it seems like usually people go for downers or uppers. But yeah, a little of both there, I guess, huh?

Yeah. I think there is the polydrug user that I come across them. I also was very into pharmaceuticals always. I was always into sleeping pills, I was into anything I could get my hands on, basically. I didn't really care that much as long as it altered me. So, it was always like I always was obsessed with pharmaceutical drugs. Anything I could find, I'd use. So, it didn't almost— I agree with you where it's interesting to not have a— there's no drug niche here. It's just like, how can I get fucked up, basically?

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So, we can fill in the blanks of your meth use because we've all been there, right, if you're listening. Or if you're a family member, you know what happens when gay men get on meth. So what was it that, you know, for if there's listeners who are in this place where they really want to quit, they can't seem to stop, chemsex is the only sex they think they know of, tell us what made the switch for you. What made you try to get sober and say goodbye to it? Well, Yes.

So, um, uh, so I'd spent a good 4 years, um, sort of falling into a really deep hole. Um, uh, I lived in the apartment that I still live in now, which is complicated. Um, and, um, uh, I was living alone. I had a partner at the time. Um, we didn't live together. Um, but he didn't know anything. I didn't share my drug use with anyone. I was so secretive. I was so, so, so secretive.

Wow.

Yeah, so it was this sort of like real— I think it's just a continuation of the shame from being closeted. It was just like everything about me is not to be shared. It was sort of like a— I guess that was like the most comfortable mode for me to be in. So I hid it from my partner, I hid it from any friends that I had, I hid it from my parents. And as a result, I felt so fucking isolated. I felt really, really alone. And I was progressively over those 4 years just pulling myself further away from people. I don't think that I would have gotten myself out. I don't think I knew of any other way to live my life because I'd spent my whole 20s using drugs. It was sort of like a— I remember looking at— I would always look at people on the street and be like, how the fuck are you doing this? Like, it's, you know, you get to that point where you're like perplexed of how people actually live their life regularly without drugs or without as many hard drugs. So, I remember being in that phase and then So, when I turned 30 years old, my mom, I had lunch with her one day and she was like, do you want to go and do ayahuasca with me in Costa Rica? I'm going to buy you a 30th birthday present. It was her 60th birthday. So, she's like, for my 60th birthday and your 30th birthday, let's go to Costa Rica to do ayahuasca at a retreat.

Wow.

Which I think for me, Almost intuitively, I was really excited by the opportunity. I think I was in such a rut. I was in such a rut. Like, it was just like Groundhog Day every single day. It was like Groundhog Week. It was actually a week because it's, you know, it's like a week-long cycle where it's like, it's like I start using on Thursday, I'm up all the whole time till Sunday, I crash, I tell myself I'm never going to do it again, and then I'm back on it by Tuesday or Wednesday.

Yeah.

So it was a Groundhog Week. And I think that I was really appreciative of this opportunity to get out of that rut. I didn't know what was in store for me, but I knew that there was something interesting there. I was shocked that my mother was offering me to go overseas to do more drugs.

Yeah.

She has a whole story of how much strength and conviction it took her. She believes she received a message from— she's very spiritual, has lots of beliefs in that way. And she believed that she was like guided to take me there, which I agree with because it was the start of the journey that I'm on now. You believe it 100%? I believe it 100%. There's no other way to say it because it's such an outlandish thing to be offering your son who's struggling with drugs. And my dad was like, is not, my dad's not that way. And my dad would have had a really hard time and she would have had to convince him really hard to be like, this is the right decision. So, it had to come with conviction. So, yeah. So, that was, I think, I think the ayahuasca experience for me was like very transformative. It wasn't instantly transformative, but it was absolutely in that following year that everything started to change for me. So, I can go on to describe the experience if you want. Would that be useful?

Sure. Yes, go ahead. All right.

So, basically, it was Costa Rica. So, it was this beautiful retreat that we went for like 6 days, and the plan was to do an ayahuasca ceremony every single night for 5 nights in a row, which I Oh, wow.

Really?

It feels like very excessive. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was sort of accompanied by, you know, they would help you process, like help you frame the trip, help you process the trip afterwards. Now, incredibly, I didn't really take advantage of this because I didn't really know who he was at the time. But Gabor Maté was actually there to trip with everyone and to help everyone process their trips the next morning, which is iconic and like wild knowing who Gabor Maté is now and how much of an impact he's had on me. I got to meet him. Yeah, I got to meet him. I sat in on sessions with him. Unfortunately, at the time, I didn't really know. I didn't have a full idea of who he was. My mom did. And my mom was really excited by the opportunity. But basically, on that first night, I got everything I needed on the first night. I think the rest of the trips were actually pretty superfluous for me. On that first night, to give a bit of background, where I was at in my life at that point, so I was using drugs. I was unemployed. I was isolated. So, I was in the real depths of despair. I guess it was my rock bottom, but my rock bottom still was me having a roof over my head because my parents supported me. So, it was a rock bottom that was— you know when the rock bottom is sustainable? It's hardly functional, but it's sustainable, I guess, but it's miserable.

Yeah.

So, that's where I was at. And internally, a huge amount of shame and self-loathing. And it just grew over the years to the point where when I was 29, I just remember I couldn't look at myself in the mirror. I didn't think that I was worthy of ever sharing myself with anyone. Anytime I would meet someone, I'd make up a whole backstory. It was all a performance because I felt like the real me was just a little bit not acceptable and not okay.

Right.

And so, on that first night, that ayahuasca trip, I recall being sort of taken out of my body, obviously, and observing myself for the first time sort of as I was and sort of with the shame and the self-loathing being sort of pulled away and dissolved and actually feeling sorry for myself for the first time and actually shedding a tear and being like, oh, like, you're just a really sensitive boy who hasn't had the ability to accept himself and develop and you're using drugs to cope.

Yeah.

Right, so that was the realization, which in that moment when I was sort of awash in self-loathing was really powerful. I remember shedding a tear. I remember the language was I felt sorry for myself. Now I would say that I found self-compassion for the first time.

Yeah.

And I remember sort of having other experiences of like around my hair. Like I had hair at the time, but like just a whole bunch of realizations that like I was running away from. Like I didn't accept myself at all. Really just everything about me that I thought was broken and defective and wrong. And this is, I guess, from the queer experience, really the closet experience. And that was sort of running the ship. So, it allowed me to get perspective for the first time and find self-compassion. And it wasn't instantly transformative. I didn't understand the impact of that at the time. I didn't the next day be like, oh my God, I'm never going to use drugs again. Far from it.

Right.

Because I actually returned back to Melbourne. Like I said, the rest of the trips weren't that impactful for me. I got what I needed in that first trip. And when I came back to Melbourne, I got straight back onto using drugs because as you do, you come back to the same house, the same environment, the same everything, you sort of return back into the same habitual pattern. But it was definitely that year in 2018 that everything started to change for me and sort of different opportunities seemed to arise for me. And most of all, I just became like completely fed up with my meth use. Like, I started to really hate it. You know, you get to that point where you're like, I just hate this drug. Like, I hated the feeling. I hated the way that I had to go and get it. I hated the people I was interacting with. Most of all, I hated the comedowns. And most of all, I just hated how much it was sort of stealing away any joy or anything from my life. So that was, I think that's the framing of how I sort of started to quit. That was in 2018.

Yeah, yeah. Great, great story. I think it's one thing I want to pull out of that too is I also had an ayahuasca experience that kind of really projected my sobriety. But some people do go into those experiences expecting it to like that. They come back and they don't use again. And there's even documentaries on YouTube where these people say, I went to do ayahuasca and I never drank again, you know, all that kind of thing. I do it for— I think it's important if you're listening, if you do consider an ayahuasca retreat to, you know, don't expect a miracle, but do expect a perspective shift, which I think is the most important.

Amen.

Yeah, the most important part of spiritual growth, mental growth, physical growth, any kind of growth is just changing your perspective on life, right? And on yourself.

Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. I couldn't agree more. And that's why I sort of make it really clear that it wasn't this sort of like magical— I've seen this. I remember seeing the same things. I remember reading about like, there was a few documentaries made about like things like ibogaine and all this kind of stuff that I used to watch back in the day where it's like, people would go in and like they'd be magically cured. And I'm like, that doesn't seem realistic. And then from my own experience, I know how much more complicated it was. And like, exactly like you said, it offered me a perspective shift. It offered me some new angle or new vision of maybe what was possible and a new way to relate to myself in my current day language, which just allowed me to step out of the same rut that I was in. So I completely agree with you. And it's more something that you have to incorporate over time very consciously.

Mm-hmm.

as opposed to it being some sort of magical cure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Integration is important. Yeah, integration. So then you started to become a, a queer sober coach. Um, so tell— let's hear about, let's hear about your techniques and what, what do you think is— well, yeah, let's hear about first how you approach this non-12-step somatic coaching that you offer men? What would they expect if they came to you?

Okay. So, let me first talk about just how I sort of arrived here because I think it's important. First of all, I want to say that I never— so when I quit meth, first of all, I made no commitment to like total sobriety and I'm not sober now. Like I smoke weed. I drink alcohol when I go out. I use LSD occasionally. So, I'm very anti-12-step in that way in terms of like, I think total sobriety is a strange—

Yeah.

I don't judge anyone that's made it, but I know personally from every single person that comes in my door, no one really wants total sobriety. You kind of want to find some sort of like assortment of substances that you can use occasionally in a really safe and functional way. So, I think that was the first thing. And I never went to any 12-step or NA. I never went to a rehab. I basically, I think it was like a self-supported recovery, I would call it, where I I started to— and my first avenue was through my body, through looking after my physical health. I joined a gym around the corner here. I became quite obsessed with it. As you know, we're all sort of obsessive. I mean, it's not a leaning into the obsession. We're obsessive. I get fixated on things. I still do. I'm neurodivergent, ADHD, whatever, all the assortment of names and thingos. I definitely have tendencies in that area. So, I found something else to obsess about.

Yeah.

So, I think my first avenue was always through physical health. And that's why I first became a personal trainer. That was about a year and a half after I stopped, I became a personal trainer. And I think so that's my avenue in was always through a heavy focus on physical health and good coping, I guess. Let's talk broadly, sort of lifestyle stuff. Realizing that the lifestyle is really the thing that signifies your quality of life, as well as what goes on up here. But ultimately, that's sort of the first step. And it's sort of an easier step. So I think that was the framing. So, I first became a personal trainer. It's important to say that I spent a few years coaching— sorry, training queer people, helping them look after their health. And then during lockdown, when all the gyms shut down, I sort of had to move myself online. And it was at that time that I started to transition. So, I started to offer sort of like fitness and health coaching online.

Okay.

And then just like you, I started to share my story and then people started to reach out to me. And I was like, okay, well, can we do— is there some sort of avenue to like actually, you know, sort of like, okay, so I can help people look after their body and their physical health, Can I also help them? Can I tack on now some more aspects to what we do together? And in that vein, I got myself a mentor who I still work with, who's a clinical psychologist, to sort of support me in learning how to then sort of transform from, let's say, coaching into like mentoring and maybe even a little, a few therapeutic techniques to help people sort of like understand themselves. So that's an important background. I think in terms of my own personal development, in terms of like people that have really impacted me, obviously Gabor Maté. probably the earliest one. And obviously, from him, there's a lot to be taken away. But in terms of the understanding that substance abuse is sort of like a, you know, it's not the problem in and of itself. It's like a symptom of something deeper going on, right? And so, he has his book, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, where he sort of explores incredible amount of case studies and sort of connecting all of the dots.

Yeah.

And I guess that was my own past as well. I was using drugs because I was closeted and I didn't accept myself and love myself and I hated myself and had no identity. So, it really resonated for me. And also, the fact that like when I got off OxyContin, Because I wasn't offered any treatment for that deeper parts of me, I just jumped onto more drugs. So, I guess that's sort of the background. So, Gabor Maté in terms of drug use showing up for a reason and obviously some trauma underpinnings. And then, people like Nicole LaPrera, the holistic psychologist who I'm sure everyone knows on Instagram who's like an icon.

I mean—

I've got all of her books. So, very much talking about sort of polyvagal theory, helping people understand nervous system, fight, flight, freeze. So that's sort of the— I think that's the background. And then obviously, When the Body Keeps the Score, like that book, Peter van der Kolk talking about, again, sort of like trauma being stored in the body. So that's the assortment of things that I think has really informed my— as well as my clinical psychology as a schema therapist. Yeah. So which sort of works on— it's a very trauma perspective and looking at sort of the schemas that develop when we're young and how they play out and how that sort of runs our life. So, that's the framework that I work with. And I guess what I noticed first up when people started to reach out to me and I started to— I mean, there's a Yiddish word, chutzpah, which means sort of like the nerve. I don't know, the nerve of me to be like, all right, come. I guess people were like, look, I'm really struggling with drugs. I also want my health. I also want my health. So, maybe we can just do like a— I'll work on my health, but let's also talk about my drug problem as well because I trust you.

Yeah, yeah.

And because I see myself in you because I'm also a gay man who's struggling with drugs. And what became obvious is that there's some very familiar patterns, basically. Sort of like my pattern of coming to drug use was also a very similar pattern that I started to see in lots of people, right? So basically looking at the one level deeper. The other thing I started to hear a lot of was that 12-step was like, people had gone through, everyone had tried, everyone can access 12-step, right? That's sort of like the zeitgeist. It's the soup that we live in, right?

Right.

Everyone knows what that sort of ideology is about. Basically, everyone coming to me was either like, I hate going to the meetings. I feel judged. I feel shamed. I feel like it's really dogmatic. And so I'm aware that 12-step helps a lot of people, and I'm very careful to recognize that. I'm not rubbishing it if it's working for you. But I also know that I have a lot of people who are sort of runaways being like, I need an alternative. I don't feel like 12-step ever recognized that I was using drugs for a reason. And the reason is that I carry a lot of shame and I have traumatic experiences in my past that need to be resolved and healed before I can actually jump off the substances, right?

Right.

So, that's sort of like the approach. And so, when people come to me, and this has sort of been developed for the last, I guess, 2.5, 3 years, I've had the fortune and the blessing of having people reach out to me and trust me, I guess, because I'm vulnerable enough online. People reach out to me and they're like, hey, do you mind helping me? And I'm like, I'm happy to coach and mentor you and let's see what we can find. I don't make any promises. I'm not their therapist or their psychologist. I'm very sort of clear on my boundaries in terms of what I'm capable of and what I'm not. But I'm also happy to give it a go. And what I found is because, first off, because everyone is so secretive about their drug use and their substance use, it's already healing just to sit on the other side of a screen with someone and just share openly. Like, let's put everything on the table. Let's put everything on the table because there's so much shame and so much stigma. And especially when we're starting to move into places like chemsex and meth use in gay men. And there's already so much shame that there's just, the shame is on top of the shame and people share it with no one in their life.

Yeah.

So already healing just to be like, let's just talk about what's going on in your life, right? So that's the first step. The second step is helping people understand the reasons why they're using, which I seem to be able to do really well in almost in the first time I speak to them. Like, you don't know the exact reasons, but the sort of broad outlines. So helping people, alerting people to the reasons why they're using, as opposed to seeing their drug use as some sort of moral failing and some sort of like broken— it's like a pathology, right? So I'm very against like the pathologizing of 12-step as well, which is like, oh, you struggle with drugs, you're now an addict. And once you're an addict, you're kind of always an addict.

For life.

I hate it. I hate it. I don't actually use the word addiction. I've made that very clear on my TikTok. Just because I've actually avoided all the words that 12-step uses because they're so imbued with so much meaning. Like, relapse is out. Even sobriety.

Yeah.

Because the way that 12-step interprets relapse, I think, is really toxic. And I've had people— what I started to notice was people that have been through 12-step, right? So let's say they've been indoctrinated. I don't mean that in a bad way. Just like, that's the ideology they have in their head. What I noticed was they're actually almost harder to work with than people who had never been through 12-step. Because if they haven't been through the 12-step, then I can give them a much more compassionate approach and a much more curious, understanding approach. Again, Gabor Maté talks about sort of compassionate inquiry and curiosity as like real important drivers in the healing journey. And I completely agree. As opposed to some sort of like, oh, I fucked up and I need to judge myself and shame myself until I get better.

Yep.

So I think understanding, so basically giving people a space, a non-judgmental space to explore their drug usage is really important. Helping people understand the roots of their drug use. And then, as I continue to work with people, sort of, you can understand the broad roots by looking at their trauma history. But then, specifically, if you start to look at their actual drug use and they come back and discuss with you over and over again, you can actually start to illuminate what is driving their drug use. Like, what are the deep parts of them that they are running away from, numbing, self-soothing, escaping, right?

Right.

And then, I think, so, right, so that's the second step is understanding drug use. The concurrent second step is also helping them understand and reorient their relationship with themselves.

Yeah.

Because as you know, when you finished, when you're in drug use or just after drug use, or even just because of the way society treats drug use, even if you're on your recovery journey, there's still a huge amount of, I think there's like a huge amount of like self-judgment and self-criticism and shaming. It's almost like, and guilt that sort of drives the ship. Which I think is incredibly toxic and actually really unhelpful. And I don't think it allows you to heal at all. I think you can do the like, I'll hold on for dear life to my sobriety, but you're not really like, I don't consider that to be healed. So I think that, yeah, does that make sense? So it's like, there needs to be an instillment of compassion and understanding and acceptance as well. Let me stop there. I've said a lot, so ask some questions and I'll keep them going.

Yeah. Yeah, no, I have some comments. No, um, I, I completely agree with everything that you said. For one thing, um, I, I think, in my opinion, that— and I just made a, I made a long thread about this today on X— is that what I see, where what we forget in the 12-step program is in the 12th step, Bill W. mentions what happens after which is emotional sobriety. And for some reason, we're missing that. You know, we're missing the fact that he's saying to— after these 12 steps, then you become emotionally regulated. You get in touch with yourself, you connect, you have compassion with the world, and you move on. You know, but somewhere along the lines, we set it up like a church. where we make people feel like they have to keep coming back to be saved, you know? And so I get it. I do get it. And the, the men that come to me who have been through the 12 steps, they're so fucking hard on themselves.

So fucking hard. It's wild. It's wild how the guilt and the shame are like wild. And you're like, hey, this is not working for you. It's— yeah. So I had the same experience.

Yeah, yeah. It's just like this walk of shame of coming up and get another white chip, you know, and all this kind of stuff. I mean, I caused a big ruckus on X too when I said, I made a tweet about let's have a cake when the, when we relapse, you know, instead of this cake, because that's really where the growth comes. Not that you've been—

100%.

Yeah. Without the substance for 365 days. you may not have grown at all.

Yes.

As a person.

Amen. I completely agree. Let me— let's— relapse is, I think, a really important thing to cover because it's the thing that I think is— and not only is it just in 12-step, but because 12-step is so predominant, it's actually infiltrated sort of like the way that everyone views relapse as some sort of like huge rupture, huge shame, like huge trauma. And the thing I always hear from people who have been through 12-step when they I call it a slip-up. So just to get my language right, I don't like relapse. So I call it a slip-up and all my clients really love using that word slip-up. So like the people that have been through 12-step, when they talk about relapse, they sort of talk about like, I was doing so well. It's almost like you've lost everything that you've done. You've lost all the work. And I'm like very quick to illuminate that, like, you've lost absolutely nothing. If anything, you're better off now if you can find a way to build the resiliency and learn the lessons from this most recent drug usage event. The reality is none of— no one's journey— I really liked how you put it, which is like 365 days clear of drugs just because you're committing to sobriety. Maybe you weren't faced with any challenges in that time. So what happens when you are faced with a challenge? What happens when you're— self-worth gets injured or your self-esteem gets injured or you start to feel lonely? Like, what happens when the deepest parts of you get triggered? If you don't have any tools to, first of all, self-support through that moment and not judge yourself and get incredibly hard like you said, but then also tools to actually self-reflect and be like, oh, this usage event told me XYZ. I'm really struggling in this area. It's something to look at. It's something to look out for. I find that what's best to avoid slip-up, I find that anticipation is actually the best. Um, the best tool. It's the best gift. Like, if you can— if I can help a client, um, anticipate the moments when the desire for drugs enters the equation, then you can come up with narratives and, and tools to navigate that moment. Um, if something— if something takes them by— yeah, so, so I think that, um, so I like to do a lot of like, if someone comes to me, like, obviously, look, everyone, everyone has a little bit of shame when they slip up. But hopefully, if they've been with me for long enough, they kind of come back with like, you know what, that really sucked. I'm annoyed that it's something that I didn't want to do, but I'm here. Let's go for it. Let's process it, if they're ready. And so, we'll sort of process it by going through very, very granular— that's not a word— in a granular way, really looking at what led up to the drug use, right? What factors, circumstances, What sensations in their body? And we talked about somatics earlier. I think that there's a lot of education that I like to do with people around their nervous system, around dysregulation, because obviously what you notice, I'm sure you've noticed this, but so many people, and I used to do this as well, where you use to downregulate. If you don't understand what your nervous system is about, you often use drugs, especially those on pharmaceutical drugs and some of the downers, alcohol as well. It's a way to regulate your nervous system. So, if you can educate people about that. But basically, so we're looking at what were the sensations in your body? What was the circumstance in your life? What was the circumstance in your relationships at work? What kind of narratives were going through your head that led you to use drugs? And so, once we do that, my spiel is that we now come up with strategies for the next time we encounter the same set of circumstances. But other than that, you just move on with your life. You literally just move on with your life as if nothing happened. You don't lose anything. You're still doing well. My spiel always is like, because everyone's like, I was doing so well. And I'm like, You're still doing well. You're still actually doing well. The fact that you've fronted up here and you've actually like supported yourself through this moment means that you've actually grown, just as you were saying. So yeah, that's, that's, that's, so anticipation I find to be really important. And when something happens that people can't anticipate is when it gets most risky, I think.

Oh, right. You can't, right. Something that you didn't expect to be a trigger.

Yes. Right, exactly. Those are the hardest ones to navigate. Yeah. So it's almost like, it's almost like you're working through all the slip-ups and relapses until you get to the point where you've covered most of your triggers. And then you've got this like really robust toolbox, um, to self-support, and eventually you can move forward with your life. That's sort of the way I see it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good point. And you know, I shared— I think I might have shared it on another podcast, I've done too many this week, um, but I even after I was— I got sober in '18 as well, and so I'm coming up on 6 years. And I was at the gym the other morning and was doing biceps, and my I looked down and my veins were just popping. And I was like, all of a sudden, I just trigger. I mean, out of nowhere, just the trigger. I used IV, you know, I used it through IV use. And so it was just this craving for it. And then my body reacted as if I had just used, you know, my heart sped up, I started sweating, I got the burning. And I was like, I wasn't anticipating that at all. But after, you know, I had the tools in place to, to downregulate, tell myself it's, you know, tell my body this isn't real. I didn't use it. And, you know, and I had to talk myself down from it, you know, after 6 years. So, you know, there's, you never know, you never know what is actually, actually going to trigger you. But I think it's there on purpose to flesh out and clear out what's left. Of your craving.

Yeah, I think it's all— I think we're both very aligned in terms of like moving away from substance abuse, any kind of substance abuse, is really like a healing and growth journey as opposed to it being some sort of like— and I don't think 12-step ever— maybe some do, but I don't feel like it frames it in that way. It's more of like you've deviated from the norm. That's why the pathologizing— I feel like the pathologizing is really the problem. And pathologizing is a problem in every in the medical field and the psychiatry field generally, I think, for mental health.

Yeah.

I think that it over-relies on pathologizing. When I say pathologizing, I just mean you basically identified something as being abnormal, like it's a deviation from some sort of norm, as opposed to accepting that we're all individual, we've all been through shit in our lives, our bodies are always acting self-protectively to protect us, right? Survival is our number one imperative and we adapt. And we end up with this assortment of ways of being that has been adapted from all of our life experiences, which is a much more compassionate view. And that's the trauma-informed view that I think I really like to push. So, yeah, I think what you're saying is really important. And so, yeah, like you said, it's there to clear something out. And it's really useful for the listeners to hear you 6 years on still experiencing moments of craving.

Yeah.

I never, I only IV'd once. It was my very last, my very last time using was actually an IV usage. But I did use in the house that I'm still in. And so that sometimes creates a little bit of complication for me. Maybe talk through, let's both talk through like, what's the narrative? Like, 'cause you just went through one, like what do you, what is your internal dialogue and narrative when you come across this sort of like craving feeling? Like what do you tell yourself to walk you, talk yourself out of it?

Yeah. Well, I first talked to my body and I tell my body, you didn't use because it's so ingrained. Like when you use IV, it's intense. I was doing it 3 times a day toward the end of my drug use.

Yeah.

And so when, when the thought came into my mind and the vision of the needle going in, my body instantly went into memory, muscle memory. And I felt every— even a burning in the throat, everything. So I first said to my body, you didn't, you didn't use. You were at the gym. We didn't use. You know, I did— I like HeartMath, which is you breathe in, you know, breathe in for 5 seconds, breathe out for 5 seconds. I did that about 3 times and got myself first physically stable. And then I, and then I just said, I, that actually did it for the most part. Um, I, I had to say to myself, well, you know that you would never do that, and what would the implications be? Um, you know, I asked myself a few questions. It was very quick, you know, it was very quick, but there was just something about that moment that was so— it just took me by surprise, you know?

Yeah.

And, and I don't mention that to negate on my my feelings about once an addict, always an addict, because I don't buy into that either. I buy into the fact that my, my— it's imprinted on my brain because when I would do it, it was the dopamine levels were so high that there is still a pathway up there for that. That's what I blame that on. But then it's up to me to decide. It's up to me to decide what to do next.

Yes, exactly. It's— I think it's about staying present. And like you said, focus on— so we're both sort of somatic, we're both sort of big on somatics. I'm working, my current therapy journey is with a somatic psychotherapist who I've been working with for probably like 6 months. And she's like blown my whole mind.

I love it.

And changed my whole world. And like really realizing that like the first place to look is in your body. Like always, whenever something feels big or scary or terrifying or you start to feel angry or irritated, like anything, just like look straight to your body. Soothe and regulate the body first and then think everything through. So, I think we're on the same page with that and I think that's something for your listeners to take away for sure.

Yeah.

And then, I think the narrative that I find really important to really solidify with all of my clients and myself is just the reasons why I don't want to do that anymore, sort of creating a realistic accounting of what it would look like to use and what it does look like to use, sort of the impacts on my life. I know that was really important for me early on. I didn't sort of finish the story, 2018 when I sort of finally sort of quit the meth, I sort of was at the gym. I was going to the gym and using meth at the same sort of time.

Oh, wow.

I was in this sort of in-between phase where I was flirting around with the gym and then still occasionally using, which I think is, first of all, really a nice thing for people to realize that like, and it's part of my own philosophy and how I coach people, it's like you can start the good stuff first. So, that's why I'm like, so sobriety and abstinence, sure, it's one pathway. But in my eyes, it doesn't have to be— the first promise doesn't have to be sobriety and abstinence. It can actually be— the first promise can be like, I'm going to introduce things in my life that are nourishing, regulating, help me cope, and then the drug use can be sorted out sort of post that. So, it's sort of like a reversal of the order. And it's because of what happened with me. And then eventually, the thing that made me stop was that I started to realize the real impact of using, which was a 7-day setback, a genuine 7-day setback in my whole— every body system.

Wow.

from going to the gym. And so, when I sort of compared the 2 notes of like, okay, I've got this thing that's making me feel really good, I finally feel proud of myself, I'm going to the gym, my body's finally changing for the first time, I'm like, this is exciting, or I've got this fucking drug that's been messing my life up for 5 years and all it does is drag me back 7 days every single time I use. And so, it was almost like that was the transition point for me. So, it was having a realistic accounting and I helped All my clients do that as well, like a really realistic accounting of what it actually means to use because I find that when people don't do the self-assessment, you get stuck. The association with the drug is the initial high, right? So, you unintentionally associate the initial high with the drug, whereas what we're trying to do is reassociate the drug with all of its aftermath. The Aftermath, literally the name of the podcast. That's why it's important. So, I think that's important to say as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. There's a little, there's a little exercise I do. I volunteer for Controlling Chemsex out of London, um, and they offer 8 to 10 free kind of coaching sessions for men addicted to chemsex. But one thing we do right away is we fill out a paper that says, you know, the good things of using and then the bad things, you know. And it's, it's amazing to see like the, the change in in their thinking when they see it on paper. Like the list of good things is here, which is what, a good fuck sometimes.

Sometimes the thing about— really, really.

That's the thing about a sex drug that really eventually you're not really even having sex on because, you know, but you know, it's usually good sex. And then over here is this long list of, you know, all the bad things that happen when you're using it. And so, you got to get to a point where there's more pain than pleasure, right, at the end of the day?

Yeah. And that's why I actually think meth, it's a funny thing to say, but meth seems to be, I don't want to say easier, there's more in because meth has such dire consequences on people's lives and quality of life because the impact is so long, the comedowns are so bad. It's almost like there's more to latch onto in terms of like when I'm coaching someone. Like, I find the hardest time to coach someone is when the effects aren't that bad on their life. Like, the worse the effects are on their life, the more buy-in you can get. And so, what you were saying, it's a funny sort of like, it's a funny thing to realize, but almost like meth seems to be very doable. It's a very doable one to get off because the impacts are so bad. And once you can actually tune into, first of all, the reasons why you're using, but then also just a real accounting of what it means to actually use this drug. And if you can reassociate, which is like sort of my terminology of like reassociation, that does a lot of the work. Like, almost how bad the drug is and how much of an impact it has on you does a lot of the work of being like, all right, this is the time I'm not going to use because I don't want all of that.

Yeah.

I also wanted to say, just in reference to your being in the gym and getting triggered in that way, I see, and sort of almost the feeling coming on, which is such a powerful thing with meth because it's such a strong feeling and because the dopamine is so high. that your body can actually really start releasing dopamine. You feel like you're on the drug. And I find a lot of people, a lot of my clients, and I'm sure a lot of your listeners and probably you can relate to this, but often one of the last risk factors is old people that you used to use with reaching out to you by message. So, old hookups. It's almost like I can tell that at some point in the journey that's going to come up because you go through this period where it's like, okay, if it's up to me, I don't really want to use anymore. I'm kind of done with it. I'm going about my life. But then that message comes in as this final test. It's like the final boss. And in that moment, they can— a lot of people, a lot of people can be triggered like you were, where it's like almost like you almost go through like the process of using and the feeling of using. So navigating those last ones, I find that to be like one of the last things to navigate, but I'm sure a lot of people can relate to that.

Yeah, definitely. And the thing about when you are— when you're with a guy for a night, but you're on crystal meth, you really have been with them for a week. You know, it's so intense and you share so, so vulnerably and you bond in this way, you know. And so there's the other, like, that last test of blocking or deleting the numbers of the people reaching out. You feel like you— they're your best friends, you know. But at the end of the day, they are, they are not looking for your your best interest, obviously.

Um, I think that's also maybe a good intro into like some of the deeper reasons why. And like, I think that connection point is actually what people are seeking out a lot with chemsex. Um, it's sort of like a deep loneliness. It's a deep loneliness, um, uh, that is being relayed into a desire for connection. Um, and we're finding it wherever we can. So, uh, it is really hard to do that final sort of like block, delete moment. But I think what you have to do is start to be like, because also we're such people pleasers, like we worry about other people's emotions so much and we're so hypersensitive. That's who we are as drug users that like, we only take into account how the other person's gonna respond. But it's really, this journey is very much about standing up for your own needs.

Right.

As a priority, which is something that we don't do when we're drug users. So I find that to be an important part of the journey as well. And almost that final moment where you like either very clear with someone being like, this is not the life that I want anymore, please stop reaching out to me. Or you go one step further and be like, I'm going to block them. Obviously, always done with respect. It's never like I'm better than you. You have to really care. It's not like I'm better than you now. It's just like that's not the life that I want to live anymore because it's not working for me. And you know what? I find every single person, the message back is always like, it's not working for me either. Everyone always knows that it's not working for them. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like The amount of people— I'd like to do a survey and understand the amount of people that are doing chemsex that actually don't want to be doing it, but are kind of stuck in the loop. So, that was important to say as well. Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I love that. Well, I don't want to run out of time before we let you talk about your workshop and what is it all about and how can people get involved in it? And what's next for you too.

Okay, amazing. Let me just say one more thing because we never got into the fun trauma underpinnings of chemsex.

Yes, which—

so go ahead. Let me just give my little spiel of how I connect it. So I think that the closet trauma, which is— I mean, I think we all know intimately what the closet trauma is. It's like, it's that feeling of like unworthiness. It's the low self-worth. I find that low self-worth is basically comorbid with chemsex in every single case. Ultimately, I think an inability to assert ourselves in relationships and inability to stand up for our own needs. I think there's shame. There's often heavy self-criticism and lots of internalized stigma. So, that's kind of the makeup. And what I find is that a lot of people that are seeking out chemsex are seeking out validation. It's pretty plain and simple.

Yeah.

People are seeking out validation because deep down we don't feel worthy of love and care. And so, I'm looking for a way to be affirmed and that feeling of desirability and that feeling of wantedness. Even when you're on the apps, it's sort of a ready-made pool, right? So, that's why I always see chemsex, and we were talking about earlier how it's sort of like a unique beast in the drug and alcohol space because it's combining really heavy drug usage, which is obviously sort of like a prime escape. It's sort of like an escape from my reality. It's escape from all the deep parts of myself and all the deep narratives that are causing me lots of distress. But then it also couples that with an intense feeling of validation and feeling wanted and feeling affirmed. So it's sort of, that's why I think it has latched onto the gay community because it actually addresses 2 things that are part of our core trauma.

Yeah.

And that's sort of the video. That's sort of my stance on it. And people really resonate with that. And every single person I've looked after, obviously, Every single person is unique, but overall, there seems to be the desire. So, it's almost like triggers. The trigger seems to be like a low self-worth, low self-esteem, perceived rejection. That's how I see the triggers of chemsex.

Wow.

You know, a lot of us are really sensitive to rejection as well. So, it's like perceived rejection which might injure my self-worth, and therefore, I go out and seek out to be validated, wanted, to feel sexy, to feel desirable in these spaces. And also escape. What do you think of that as like an overall philosophy?

Oh yeah, yeah. No, I'm right with you. Validation is— yeah, I was going to ask you kind of what the overarching reasons were, but validation, validation, validation. So let me ask you this. If we have listeners and they resonate with this and they know that they're just seeking validation, What would be some first steps to give themselves the validation that they're seeking for from outside of themselves?

Yes. Okay. Good question. I think that this is why I focus a lot on reorienting our relationship with ourselves. I think that a lot of us unintentionally, we're not even aware. It's like the relationship to self is sort of like the fish in the water where it's like, you don't, it doesn't know it's in the water. So, like, you relate to yourself in a certain way. It's like me when I was in my 20s and like the self-loathing, the self-criticism, the shame. I just thought that was the only way that, like, you don't know there is any other way. But the reality is that you can actually reorient that relationship. And I find this work not that, it's not, it's work that can actually be done in a reasonable period of time, which is like we're trying to completely reorient that and we're trying to find compassion, understanding, acceptance, and curiosity. So, those are the 4 words that we're trying to replace, right? We're also trying to find ways to build self-trust, which I think is a really important thing that 12-step really forgets about, is this idea of self-trust.

Yeah.

And then we're also trying to find ways to self-support and self-nurture through difficult moments, right? As opposed to numbing and escaping, we're trying to self-support and self-nurture. So that's sort of like the relationship to self part that I think has to be done, right? And then what you're saying around— so first of all, that helps to— if you start to treat yourself and also realizing that the opposite of shame is pride, really. So, if you can find lifestyle factors that you actually start to feel proud of, if everything you do in your life you feel really shitty about and you're like, I don't want to share, you just carry all the shame, you have to start doing things that you can be proud of and actually take the time to be proud of yourself as well. I think that's really important. I think in terms of the validation piece, there's a little— actually, my mentor, my clinical psychologist mentor gave me this, which is like, there's a difference between authentic and inauthentic validation. Not all external validation is bad. We all rely on it. We're all highly social creatures. We have families and partners that validate us. We have friends that validate us. My work validates me. That's all okay. I mean, you have to play around with it, but that's okay. But I think it's more looking for places where you can actually be authentically validated, which means that the real parts of you are being validated, right?

Yeah.

So, you may be showing up authentically to some sort of hobby Like, being validated only because of your body and your genitals in this sort of like sexualized way isn't really validating you. And that's why it always feels temporary. It's like this sort of like you get this real peak and then you crash. You get this peak and then you crash. We're all familiar with the feeling, right? And then it's in that crash that you start to then seek out the validation again. So, I think it's about really reorienting where and how you're meeting people.

Mm-hmm.

Also doing things that you can actually be proud of. I think this is where your physical, looking after your physical health is like a non-negotiable. That's absolutely, I think we're both on that path where like you have to like start finding a way to actually care for yourself, which is the counterpoint to the destruction with drugs. So I think relationship to self is a good way to think about this. And if you can start to build some of that, and look, that's why I also have the opinion that you can start doing that while you're still using if you need to. So that's why I'm not—

Mm-hmm.

You don't need to do sobriety in absence, doesn't have to be your first promise. You can actually start to reorient your relationship with yourself and that'll help you as you go down the line to eventually make the decisions best for your future. That's my spiel.

Yeah, no, I love that. I love that. I love, I love that you offer that. It's almost like a harm reduction type philosophy for, for people that it comes in steps, right? And that's what I try to tell you when, when, when guys reach out to me, they're in the depths of their, their uh, their addiction— I know you don't use the word addiction, but they're in the meth use. Um, you know, I just tell them, if you can go, just take it little by little. You know, take— let's, like you're saying, build self-trust in yourself. So make a tiny little goal today. Will you use for the next hour?

Yes.

You know, you know, make tiny goals and start to tell yourself and, and let yourself know that when I say something I mean it, you know, I'm not lying to myself anymore. I do trust in what I have. My words mean something. Um, you know, you have to start somewhere. You have to start somewhere.

Yeah, I think, yeah, the, the time frames— I really like to, uh, really reiterate that like the time frames have to be extended. Everyone's time frames have to always have to be extended. Like everyone always— I think this is another thing that Torstep has made a big mistake on, which is it's like it sort of presents the solution as It's not really like this, but it's almost like the solution is like a one-time, it's like a decision you make once and then you hold onto that decision. Whereas the reality is that for those of us that come to drug use because of trauma, right? Those of us, I like the term self-medication. I think that self-medication is often the frame for understanding a lot of people's drug use, especially in our community. And I also find it to be much more compassionate because we can start to think about like, what are you medicating?

Sure.

The questions become obvious if we're talking about self-medication as opposed to addiction.

Right.

And yeah, so I think it's important for people to just extend their timeframes out. Like, you know, you might have spent— you know, I look after guys who are like in their mid-40s, in early 50s. Like, it's not like these aren't young guys. Some of them are young, some of them are 30, but like some of them have been doing it for a decade. Some of them have been doing it for 15, 20 years. So like, we're not going to undo it in 3 weeks. It's probably going to take 6 months to make any progress whatsoever. But as long as you can stay committed to the journey and treat yourself in a way that is compassionate, Not in a way that is constantly shaming and judging, then you can actually make progress. So extend the timeframes out, like give yourself, this is a project for you to be doing. And as we were talking about earlier, anytime you do use drugs, like it's a lesson, it's a learning tool, all right? You haven't reverted back to the beginning of the journey. The journey continues.

So I think timeframes are really important to extend. That's right, that's right.

You don't have to start your days over.

This whole thing of starting over at zero is just so shameful.

It's so toxic.

I do think there's a— where I do think 12 steps get it right in terms of helping is in the very beginning, latching on to being able to get to a meeting every day, you know, and connecting with sober people, having a change in environment immediately. You know, I think that really does serve a really good purpose in the very beginning. Yeah, but I agree.

I agree.

We have to— you have to think about how many gay men are religiously traumatized as well. They have religious trauma. Like, I'm one of— so many of us do. And then you, like you're saying, you go into an establishment where you mess up and you have to go up to the altar and get saved again, or you have to go to the confession booth And confess your sins. It's the same setup. It's the same philosophy here.

Yeah, it's shame. It's driven by shame. It's driven by shame. And I've had people refute me on this. And I'm not saying that— I know every 12-step meeting is different. I know every single community of 12-step is different. I'm aware of that. And I'm aware that it helps a lot of people. But ultimately, there is an underpinning of like group enforcement through shame. And as you're saying, it's got the religious undertones where it's like repent, guilt, shame, dogma, punitive. That's in its worst form. That's what it can give people. And people feel very judged when they're in those spaces. It's also toxically masculine because it's run— unless you find a queer group, it can be toxically masculine. So I think for those reasons, that's why I'm like queer people and NA, you're right. The meetings are the strongest part. The meetings, people love the meetings. People are like, people always saying, like, I love the meetings, I hate the ideology, basically. So I'm like, eventually people like us, me and you, are going to create something brand new where people can come and collect. For sure. Undoubtedly. And I believe strongly in that.

Well, I've already rewritten the 12 steps. Nice. I have. Yeah, I rewrote them and I have it in certain things, certain places. I just haven't made it public yet. Well, speaking of products. Yes, I do want to get to— I do want to get to your workshop and I do want to Make sure people know where to find you because, you know, I think what you're offering is just, you just, you're so packed with knowledge and you know exactly what you're talking about. So where can we find you and what about, what is the workshop all about? What can they expect?

Yeah. Okay. So I'm, first of all, I'm on TikTok mainly. My name is The Queer Drug Coach. That's my title there. I post very, very frequently. I'm on there all the time experimenting and trying new things. TikTok is a wild west. It's a wild west. And hey, look, as a queer person with queer trauma and needing validation and affirmation, like being on TikTok has been complicated. I want to be totally honest. It's not been an easy ride. It's really complicated, like exposing yourself to that many people and opening yourself up to rejection as well. And also opening yourself up to validation. But like, it's a complicated ride and it's taken me To deliver as I do, as effortlessly as it looks, it's taken me—I started on Instagram three years ago. Like it's taken me probably three years to get to the point. Like so anyone you see on TikTok who's like you're like that looks so easy or effortless. It's like it's so crazy how long it takes to get to the point where you can be yourself in front of a camera. That's the first thing. But I'm on TikTok and like I really love it there. I think there's an incredible community growing there. Lots of really good engagement from people that are aligned with this. If you've sort of aligned with our philosophy today. What I find is, this is the interesting thing, I find that a lot of people who self-support themselves through a drug recovery actually follow the similar principles that I'm sort of espousing. It's not a new philosophy, it just hasn't been sort of formulated, I don't feel like. But it's very common. It's common out there. A lot of people comment on my videos being like, this is exactly how I did it. This is what I did. Yes, I agree. So, it's out there. It's not brand new, but I just don't think it's been collated and presented in a way that's sort of digestible. So, that's what I'm trying to do there. And then, off the back of that, for my first ever workshop, we decided— first, I'm working with my partner for the first time, which has been a wild experience as well.

Oh, nice.

Yeah, yeah. So, my partner's doing all the backend. He took a break from his job and he's sort of just— we're doing it together. We're doing our very best to build a little business here because it feels meaningful. Like, we're helping queer people heal their substance abuse. It's like, it couldn't be more meaningful for us. So, and the first workshop was really just a way— so other than that, my only offering is a one-to-one coaching mentoring, which is obviously, you know, requires a certain financial investment that a lot of people can't afford. It's also my time is limited in that respect. So I wanted to provide something that was like a resource for people.

Yes.

So the idea of the workshop was basically a full exploration of my sort of philosophy and the way that I coach people and mentor people away from drugs. So, we called it Walk Away from Drugs and Find Yourself, which felt like a relevant sort of like— it was like, yes, we're walking away from something, we're also walking towards something. It's almost like that's the duality that we're trying to— it's walking towards a better version of yourself and more healed relationship with yourself, right? And so, we go through the modules. So, the modules basically, the very first one is So it's a full structure. So people aren't going to leave healed. Like we said, timeframes. People aren't leaving healed, but I hope that people would leave with a full idea of what it's going to require for them over however long, the next 6 months, the next year, the next 2 years. At least there's a framework now for what work needs to be done and however long that work takes for them. So we start with a deprogramming from conventional wisdom. So really sort of like a lot of what we spoke about today, sort of like throwing out all the useless terms.

Yeah.

and explaining why they're useless, sort of like around relapse, sort of challenging this sobriety and abstinence paradigm as the only solution, and also looking at the term addict and addiction and why, and this sort of pathologizing view, and replacing it with something more compassionate, trauma-informed, and somatic. Second module is about relationship to self and reorienting the way that you view yourself and treat yourself, looking at things like self-worth and self-trust and how to build those things with new compassion, understanding, and acceptance. The next module is about understanding your drug use. There's such a funny paradigm where for people that are in 12-step or even just people in society generally, where it's like the more you explain your drug use, people think you're making excuses, which is really toxic as well. And people start to believe it themselves and start to gaslight themselves into being like, no, if I spend too long trying to explain my drug use, then I'm actually just making excuses. No, I encourage all the excuses in the world. Let's really explore.

Yeah.

And so, in that module, I've got some tasks and some writing tasks, and you can actually go to my website and just download some free resources. I've got a craving journal and a relapse or slip-up guide as well.

Love that.

So that's module. And then we've got a somatic module, basically a nervous system education talking about dysregulation. And then the final module is sort of building the life that you want to live and what the components of that are, talking about social connection and different coping tools, lifestyle tools, physical health. So it's basically like an exploration of like, from my own lived experience and now working with over sort of 50 or 60 queer people all around the world, over the last 2 and a half years, um, and what I have seen that really works. Um, and it's solidly non-12-step. It's brand new, um, and based on sort of all the most recent understandings of mental health and neuroscience. So, um, that's, that's the workshop. Um, if this comes out after— it's going to be on April 9th. Um, if it's already past April 9th, then it will be available on my website, um, to purchase and download as well. So go check that out.

So, you're offering it live, but then later you can actually go and download it.

Yes.

And there's more to come, I'm sure, from you. There'll be lots more to come. I would keep an eye on Andrew's site.

Yes. Honestly, the next one, look, we need to work it out. It's a brand new venture. Who knows how this is going to go? It's sort of like trial and error. I've never had to market anything like this. I'm just a We're just a 2-person band working out of my— out of our house. So, but the long-term plan is to have sort of like a bunch of different resources. So, like the next one, I would love to do a chemsex workshop.

Yeah.

I think that there is so much to cover and there's a real need for it as well. So, look out on my website, look out on my TikTok, eventually hoping this to turn into sort of like a recurring thing where people can come and check in, almost like you said, like a meeting. Situation. It's almost like there's a cohort of people that are going through this journey together. There's going to be a Q&A. So that's the long-term plan. Who knows how long that'll take to implement? But for the time being, this is sort of like the starting point. So if you want to come and support me and join in with this new venture, then I'd love to have you there.

Yeah, that's fantastic. Yes, go at the very least follow Andrew on TikTok.

For sure. For sure.

And by the way, you have double the company. You have double the manpower I have.

It's just me here. It's true. It's crazy. It's, it's been like, um, you know, you see people on TikTok sort of effortlessly like offering up products and stuff and you're like, whoa. Like when you start to like actually develop them all, you're like, this is a wild amount of work. It's a wild amount of work. And it's also wild on top of an already full workload, like, you know, coaching and mentoring people and making content online. And then to like on top of that. So it's been a journey. I'm along for the journey. It's been challenging at times, but again, timeframes, you know, if this takes 6 months to get off the ground, but there's going to be workshops. They're going to be really, really beneficial. Like, I would love you guys to come and support and be there from the beginning. So, yeah. Good.

Yeah. Well, I do have to say a caveat in case he listens to this part. My brother is helping me edit the podcast and helping designing and different things like that. So, I do have some help if my brother is listening.

Yay, family!

Yeah, um, I really love to have you back because there's a lot of topics we didn't talk about, which is sober sex, which is partners of users. There's a lot of other issues. If, uh, you'd like to come back sometime, I would love to dig in deep, uh, because the biggest question I get is, how can I ever have sober sex again?

Yes, I agree.

And that— and it keeps so many men in addiction because they're afraid of boring vanilla sex for the rest of their life, or they can't get horny without it, you know. So that's another topic I'd like to dive into next time.

I completely agree. I get— I, I have— I've had to cover that with many, many, many men, um, and, uh, yeah, and I get a lot of people reaching out to me, and that's sort of like the main thing that's left over after their usage. They're like, all right, I'm not using now, but also I don't have any sex drive. And yeah, I can't connect. I can't connect with people in a sober way. So yeah, I'd love to come back. This was a great conversation. This is amazing.

Great. Good, good, good. Well, thank you very, very, very much. I enjoyed meeting you. I've been watching you for 14 months now, and so I enjoyed meeting you in person. And, um, thanks, and I hope you enjoy the rest of the day. And for all of you all, just stick around and I have messages after this. Hey, Dallas here. Are you tired of stacking up the white chips? 12 steps hasn't worked for you, been to treatment several times, feeling pretty hopeless. If you're asking yourself, will I ever be able to get past relapse? Will I ever be able to string together a substantial amount of sober time? I'm here to tell you that oftentimes the answer to relapse is a slight shift in perception. Actually, any growth in life— spiritual, mental, emotional. It's one perception shift after the other. I'm giving away my free 28-day Reframing Relapse online course to help you shift your perceptions about your addiction, your relapse, and yourself. This 28-day program has daily journal prompts, guided meditations, and 2 free 30-minute coaching sessions with yours truly. At the end of this 28 days, you will look at relapse through a different lens and change the course of your addiction cycle. I promise you. That. I could give your money back, but I'm not charging you anything. If you're interested, the link will be in the show notes, and I look forward to seeing you there.